A (3:19)

How are you? It's an honor to be here. I'm always, always thrilled to be here and just spread the message of leadership. I love it.

B (3:28)

Well, I want to start off by asking you this, Chief. Yesterday you came from a statewide fire Chiefs conference, or get together, if you will. Today, before coming onto this show, you spent time at a Captain and Battalion Chiefs Academy that brought basically individuals from all over the state of Arizona. And yet here you are now on the afternoon of this day talking leadership on this podcast. So talk about your involvement in all of that and why your involvement is so important to you and things like this, but also why it's so important to you as a chief and as a leader.

A (4:01)

So I would say on my day, my day today was very unique in the fact that this week we have the Chief Executive Officer program. This is our fourth year to do this program and it's really focused on that outside the box training for fire chiefs, chief officers, and those that want to serve in those roles. There's no standard curriculum. We do follow the have the endorsement of the IAFC Executive Chief Officer program. So those students not only graduate that program, but get that endorsement from the ifc. And it makes him really think across topics because being a fire Chief in today's world is a little bit different and challenging the challenges we face today. So I kicked that off this morning. We've actually got that going all week. So I started in on the other side of the valley, the Phoenix Valley in Scottsdale. To kick that off this morning. I stopped in Avondale on the way back to kick off our Battalion Chief Academy, which is hosted annually, holds about 55 people from around the state of Arizona. And to see, walk in and see all the names on the back of the shirts from around Arizona. Like I told them, that level that they're at, that Captain, battalion chief supervisory level is, is one of the most important in the fire service. And I think the entire fire service is facing the, the same things in that our recruitment numbers are down. We're not getting the same numbers that we had. We're all facing retirements of experienced tacticians and leaders. And we're having to fill those ranks through, not through experience, but through education, training. But like I told the folks this morning, I feel really good about our future because we're hiring good people, we're leaning into them or providing these educational opportunities. This both of These events were sponsored by the Arizona Fire Chiefs association because our mission is lead, develop and serve. And that develop piece, that succession plan that we're doing for all ranks is, is critical for us. And after this, after this, I go to another podcast that I put out for our department and then I got the Buckeye Youth Council tonight. So it's a unique day that I get to touch a lot of different audiences.

B (6:21)

Wow.

A (6:21)

But nothing makes me more excited than the talk and talk leadership and what we're doing and how we're doing and why we're doing, I think, critical things.

B (6:30)

One thing that I wanted to ask is that Company Officer Academy. Excuse me, that BC Academy. You said there's 55, 60 people from around the state.

A (6:38)

Yes.

B (6:39)

That's not just your department. We're not talking, just Phoenix. How is it that you have this program that brings so many different people from so many different departments?

A (6:49)

So the, the coordinators of that program have developed. It's, it's a nine day program. They do it Wednesday, Thursday, Friday for three weeks. And they, and that's exactly how they do it. So once they, when they advertise that, it fills up in a short order. They have to turn people away from that. So that's why we're, we're looking at developing a north in the north part of our state and the south part of our state to get some additional offerings. Again, everybody's kind of clamoring for this level of training. It's not like your fire officer one that's really teaching theory and basic leadership. These are some challenging discussions on what it's like to be a leader today. And so some of the stories and real case studies that we're experiencing or seeing from the fire service so that those young leaders can learn from that. Just like a NIOSH report where we read and educate so that never happens again. We want today's leaders and to talk about their successes, their failures, those type of things. And that's what that is really, really about in both those programs is really getting outside the box to that leadership bible that they can learn from.

B (8:00)

Well, you mentioned it twice now in the last five minutes. You said outside the box training, you mentioned it's outside theory, it's outside what the book says, it's outside tradition. But both at the, the, the chief officer level, you're talking now, the BC level. Where did that come about? Because we don't see that very often. Every time we go to a class, it's like, okay guys, here's your pre read. It's that if the manual, it's this whatever book and then we're going to come talk about the book, you know, we rarely see and maybe it's not, maybe it's rare from up here, but maybe it's a commonality in, in, in your, in your area. But where that you come to this class and it's all this outside stuff. How did, how did that come about and how did, how do you guys make that work?

A (8:41)

So I think we sat in enough classes and I'll never discount your foundational classes, your officer classes, those theory based and some of those. And I think those are fantastic classes. But we also found out that hey, there's some real stuff happening out there in different, different parts of the industry that we can learn from. I'll go to cyber terrorism, I'll go to some of the, the things that are happening, some of the case studies in social media and some of these things that are happening. Well, let's talk about them in this class. And it's not one of those classes that either class is not one that's using a lot of PowerPoint doing that we really want to engage because one thing that, that I trust and I say it all the time is we have a lot of talent in the fire service. We have a lot of talent in the fire service. And I'm blessed in Arizona, the leaders that came before me through the Arizona fire chiefs and the presidents that have come before me and there's a long line behind me and I want to lean on them because even as a fire chief today there are, there are things that I have to not react to but take time to respond to. And I think that's very important as young leaders that we want to react, we want to. I'm a task manager at times where I love crossing things off my list that includes responses. But sometimes I think we got to be more careful and this class kind of focuses on that. Yesterday we had about three hours with a professor out of one of the universities talking about implicit bias.

B (10:13)

Oh yes.

A (10:14)

Recognizing that that piece because let's be honest, strategy and tactics is huge because of life, safety and everything that we do. But I think on the flip side of that, the thing that I think a lot of officers, supervisors, our challenge with are not being tacticians. I think we train and educate ourselves on that topic a lot. We really focus on that. What we don't focus a lot on is people, emotional intelligence and how to really handle incidents that occur in our firehouses, outside of our firehouses, dealing with customers. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting. Wow, that's an interesting dynamic that I, I don't think we can lean far enough in because we are in a different time than, than when I started my career 33 years ago.

B (11:04)

Agreed, agreed. Well, I help facilitate an implicit bias workshop with members of my organization as we go into the new hiring process. Just to talk about, you know, interview panels, what are we looking for, how do we make sure we mitigate our biases? But I will say this. It's not the most comfortable conversation to have. Right. And you know, and some people prefer not to have it. But at your level, chief, like this, these guys spent several hours with members that are seasoned in the fire service. How does that conversation take place and are people receptive?

A (11:38)

Do you find what was interesting? And so this doctor who taught this class is actually the wife of a captain in one of the well known districts in our state. So she understands the level, the top level of the fire service.

B (11:57)

Yeah.

A (11:57)

I will always say that people outside of our world don't really understand the fire service and constant staffing and all those things, the politics that we go through. But she has a better understanding than most. As she went through her, the class and the messaging and then a couple of the exercises where she had the members of the class and again, we're talking about fire chiefs and chief officers from around the state. We had 45. There's 45 in that class. And some of the conversation was very interesting because people saw that they were biased in certain areas. And her point was we all are in some degree. The importance is to be aware of that and, and combat that in, in some way. So her message was very interesting in the way she put it because she deals with it in her, in her fire service family.

B (12:53)

Yeah.

A (12:53)

And I think some of the members actually got a little defensive.

B (12:56)

Right.

A (12:57)

Until, until some of the explanation of it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. That's why we're here is to realize that we all have these in certain ways. And some of these could be long existing, maybe from a childhood or experience or, or something else. So fascinating conversation. But it's one of those that, that you don't get in your everyday sitting around the kitchen table or in your fire officer class. It gets much deeper than that. And I love those discussions because it gets into that philosophical piece of why. I don't think we talk about the why enough.

B (13:32)

Sometimes we don't. We don't. And it's interesting because as I sit and get to have these Conversations. It's like every time I have an episode, it's like the speaker will say something like, oh my gosh, this is the first I've heard. And this is one of those cases, like, I don't hear of enough individuals, departments, classes, academies, talking about emotional intelligence, implicit bias, and actually committing hours on end to this stuff. And you're right, we're in a different generation now. Right, wrong or indifferent, like it or don't like it, this is where we're at. And this stuff I like to say is, it's not that it wasn't important back 10, 20, 30 years ago. It's just more brought to the surface and we need to be more aware of it because this is where we're at. One thing I want to lean on to you because we've talked about so far, you know, individuals all across the state in Arizona, and it's not, it's not a joke, but I like to bring this to light. I'll have a guest from Arizona, and there'll be a guest from Florida, and there'll be a guest from Arizona. There'll be a guest from Florida. Even further than my own state of Washington, there's been more guests on this show from Arizona and Florida than any other state. How is it that Arizona breeds so many great fire service leaders?

A (14:46)

I just think you're picking the right people, that's all I say. I, you know, I think, I think every state has them. Obviously with this accent. I don't come from Arizona. I've only been in the state 11 years. And before that I was Oklahoma and I did a little time in Rogers, Arkansas as a deputy chief. I'll say this, when I came out here, I was in Kingman, Arizona. I was in the northwest corner of the state and I came out to that department and they welcomed me in. But not just them, but the chiefs from around the state. Within just a couple months, I was sitting on a hiring panel for a chief in a neighboring department and some of the other chiefs that had sat on my panel reach out and include me in that. Next thing you know, I was sitting on, invited to be in the Arizona Fire Chiefs and be part of a couple activities that they were doing. And next thing you know, it was exactly that. So I, I would say the relationships that we have here in the state are, are second to none. I, I think that is, that's one of the things that I've really learned throughout my career is how important relationships are and some of the, the leaders that, that are around me Every day that have pushed me to be. Hey, it's time for you to. It's time for you to be the vice president. It's time for you to be the president. I listen to those, those men and women, the Mark Gaylords, the Mary Camellis, the Mike Durans that are a phone call away. And we always talk about that. Building your network and your resources here, it's really a thing. And we've had some tragedy in the state the last few weeks, primarily one department where they had an incident where they lost two firefighters in an ambulance accident, and then two weeks later, they lose another member who was coming to work in a motorcycle accident. And the support that that city got through, not only their neighbors, they're three hours, three hours from here, but the support that they got through state mutual aid. We covered their department for nine days, nine days total, that their, their department was off. And we covered that. But that comes from the relationships of leadership, the respect that we have for one another. And a common, I would say a common North Star. My assistant chief gave me that term a couple weeks ago. And it's funny, we have a development here that's coming online here pretty soon called North Star. And I thought that's what it was. But when he talks about that North Star of our department and where we are and our leaders. Intent are the leaders intent in Arizona is very, very common. And we're all battling through different things. We're all facing the same things. And really, it doesn't matter. Arizona, Florida, Washington, D.C. doesn't matter. We are all facing the same issues.

B (17:43)

Yes.

A (17:44)

When we talk about recruitment, retention, succession, budgets, all those things. But I think the commonality that we can have those, those respective discussions, I was having them with some, some chiefs last night at dinner after our chief executive officer class. And it's, it's just that perspective that each one of us brings. And we can lean on each other to get some things done. So.

B (18:06)

Wow.

A (18:06)

You talk about why Arizona. Yeah, it's relationships. Yeah, it really, truly is. The caring and intentional relationships that we, that we make.

B (18:16)

Wow. Well said. I wouldn't even lean on that any further because with the relationship piece, it seems so common as far as a reason why things work, as a reason why there's success, as a reason why people, you know, succession plan or whatever it might be, it's due to relationships and connections. So let's, let's jump into the theme, Chief, because the theme and the title of today is Leading People Through Change. This is an exciting topic. Some people may not think so, because it's a difficult topic. And we'll start off with a quote that we all know, all listeners know, you know, firefighters, what do we hate? We hate change, but we also hate the way things are. Change is difficult, but we want change. We want progression, we want better things, but we don't want to go through the, you know, the headaches and challenges that go along with it. So talk about change, Chief, and why that is something that so kind of hits home for you for us to talk about today.

A (19:09)

It is, it is a deep topic. Yeah, it is.

B (19:12)

Yeah. We go days.

A (19:14)

Absolutely. And just experiences that go with that. But. But I've kind of seen it firsthand and when I promoted from, from a company officer into the training office, I always had a background in training. So when I became the training chief, that kind of started it for me. And that fire chief was a huge mentor of mine. But I knew we had to change some things in our department. Again, we were kind of growing. We needed some things and I was able to bring some things, but it took some effort because it took something that was non existent in a training program into something robust and planned and really met the needs of the department. From there I got to go to a couple different departments as a fire chief. When I went to Edmond, Oklahoma, Kingman, Arizona and here I faced many of the same things. And that was there. I always say there's a reason they go outside of the organization to bring in a fire chief, that city manager, that mayor, that leader is looking for something and usually there's a deficiency that he sees. And getting a fresh set of eyes in an apartment is very important. And that's been the case three times in my career. And I would say three times it's been very successful for me and those organizations. But it was, it was built on coming in. You had to communicate what you were saying, why you were saying and really build some of those things in that. Okay, now we need to start doing these things because it's right, it's different. And here's how we're going to do it. That communicating that vision, our vision. Here's. When I first came in, I did strategic planning. I've done this. It's been kind of the roadmap in all three of those departments where I took over as although I had to do it differently based on some of the personalities, but setting up a strategic plan, having that vision, buying in on our values, those things were really the focus. So we could really focus on the service to the community. The Service to our members, and then live within our values. I think all three of those things have set a good foundation where the most important things are service and our members. And if we focus on those things, I think we've gone. We'll go through change very well and very intentionally.

B (21:32)

Absolutely. You mentioned something interesting because you said the reason you kind of go outside when you're looking for a new fire chief, a different perspective, different way of looking at things. And perspective is always great. Right. No matter what it is. Gaining perspective, looking at something from a view that you don't currently see, gaining new knowledge, if you will. What I've noticed is we talk about succession plan or we talk about change at the fire chief level from outside, but we rarely talk about it at the other ranks because perspective comes from all. All over the place. Right. We talk about, like, do we want to do lateral firefighters? Like, why would we want to go to the outside? And it's like, well, we don't want to do outside chief officers, for example, battalion chiefs or captains. But. But people are okay with. At the fire chief level, perspective is perspective. Right. If it's good at one level, I think it's good at another level. I'm not advocating that, you know, every department needs to, you know, bring. Bring in outside chief officers and captains and stuff. But I just think it's interesting because, you know, people will embrace it at one rank, but not at the other. So why is it hard for. For. Or easy, we'll say, to say, chief, let's go to the outside. Everywhere else, let's keep inside.

A (22:37)

Well, so I think a couple things there, and it's. It's funny, you. You kind of talk about this. We. We had this discussion at the chief level. Sometimes it's as simple as. It's as simple as how well you mesh with your boss. Can you work with him? Can he. Can he lean on you as a member of his team? Do you just emotionally connect? I think that's important as you're sitting across from somebody, because I think once you get to that level in the three organizations that I talk about, where I came in, there was an interim chief who could be the chief today and still do a marvelous job. There's one of the battalion chiefs that I have here, was the interim chief prior to me, and he was doing a fantastic job. But I think at that level, it was the city manager just saw something different. So I go. I say this because I've hired some chief officers from outside, but you're right. When it comes to that battalion chief and captain's level. We want those for our members because they know one another. They. They know the strengths and weaknesses, personalities, just the idiosyncrasies of the members. And I think that's so important. The hard thing is leaning into them to where they. They understand the whole buddy to boss concept. Because I will say that being a, Being a company officer, being a captain, a lieutenant, station captain, station officer, I think is one of the hardest jobs because one, you got to hold somebody accountable, and then 30 minutes later, you got to sit down and share a meal with them like nothing happened. And we're not the most mature bunch at times. That can be very difficult for us. So a lot of times, I mean, we talk about the lack of accountability across the fire service at times. And I think every organization could say this at certain places. That's difficult. Yeah, I hate to say it.

B (24:21)

Sure.

A (24:21)

And the next day you might have. Have plans to go fishing, hunting, golfing, whatever it is with them when the guy, you just gave him a verbal reprimand or told him no or slow down or something like that. Yeah, but that's leadership. It's leadership time and a place, and everybody understands that. And I think leaning into those people and helping them understand how we establish expectations, how do we have those difficult conversations? Because there is no. I've been, I've been looking, I read all the time. If you can see the other. My bookshelves in here, they're full of books on leadership. Nobody really tells you. Yeah, there's difficult conversation books out there, it can tell you how to do it, but actually doing it is a whole different thing. 100 sitting across from a different personality, a different personality type.

B (25:14)

Oh, that's the biggest challenge. But I've told. Yeah, that's where I mean, leadership comes into play. And it's. I've always joked, not really joked, but, you know, it's. It going to a fire, going to a cardiac arrest, going to a car accident. It's quote, unquote easy.

A (25:30)

They.

B (25:30)

Because we train for those things. It's. It's not, I'm gonna say it's black and white, but everyone's got a job to do. You, you assign, you delegate and you do. It's the difficult conversations in the firehouse. It's those types of things where we're not. We're not trained to do. So what I'm going to ask here, Chief, is as you talk about, that's leadership. Sometimes we're not taught those leadership traits or skills. As we talked earlier, about a nine day chief's academy, we talk about robustness, talking about implicit bias training, emotional intelligence, stuff like that. I'm curious, is, is difficult conversations training a part of some of these things? If so, why? I mean, how do you get that to work? When did you recognize that this is something that we need to train up our future leaders? And if it's not, how do we continue to have those things be a part of our offshore development programs?

A (26:20)

So I think I recognized it several years ago when you start doing, and I can remember some of the early promotional processes that I did where you're doing some role playing and some of these things and you actually, I can still remember an individual where you start the roleplay incident and you see him lean up on the table, roll up his. Physically roll up his sleeves. I'm like, well, that's probably not how we handle this one, but that's who he was.

B (26:44)

Yeah.

A (26:45)

So what was the proper way to handle that? And I think as, as fire chiefs, as chief officers, we are, we're having that. Let's be honest, most of the problems that I encounter or the complaints that I get are not from a medical call gone wrong or a fire gone wrong. Those incidents, they are clapping our people on the back saying, thank you, thank you, thank you. Where my issues come from is from the lack of supervision or the way an issue was handled in a station or with personnel. So I think the fire service has known this a long time. But again, I think as leaders, I think there's a couple of things that come into play is one, it's time management, trying to fit in the touchy feely, philosophical discussions about how to handle these case studies and difficult conversations versus two, do you have the skill set to be teaching that? Do you have the ability to the moral and ethical background that people are going to listen to when you say this is how we handle those things? And I've seen organizations out there that had a simple lack of accountability because of a couple leaders that they had in place. The lower ranks simply didn't listen to them because they didn't respect them, because they saw them doing things. They were telling people to do things that they weren't doing, that they were being unethical, they were doing these things and trying to hold the line. And so I think there's a couple things there that I think we've seen it a long time.

B (28:15)

Yeah.

A (28:16)

And I think we're getting better at it because we're seeing it.

B (28:19)

Yeah.

A (28:20)

And we're seeing those young individuals Promote who have a lot of talent.

B (28:24)

Yep.

A (28:25)

Yeah, a lot of talent, some skill set. Yeah.

B (28:27)

Well, that's, that's, you've mentioned it a few times here today too is we have a lot of talent in the fire service. We absolutely do. And I've always, I've always, when I relate it back to say professional sports, collegiate sports, whatever it may be, it's like everyone that's in the NFL, the NBA, Major League Baseball, whatever it might be, they're all, everyone's talented. They wouldn't be there in the first place. They wouldn't have got drafted. But you see some that excel and some that don't. You even see first round draft picks don't excel. You see six round draft picks, you know, excel like a Tom Brady will say. But it's because of development. Right. Everyone has talents. It's a certain amount of self development and also organizational development for those people. So yes, when you say there's talented people. Yes, there is. And you're saying, you know, we're recognizing more today than we had been, that relationship building is important, that difficult conversations and having them is important. So it's just about what do you do further? You recognize are we going to put money and time behind training and developing the people that we want or are we not?

A (29:28)

I love your analogy there when you talk about first round draft picks because there's a great story out there right now that I love. I'm a huge OU Sooner fan, football fan, Oklahoma, obviously, Boomer, sooner for everybody. But Baker Mayfield in the pros gets drafted number one. He goes to the Cleveland and Baker has this swagger now they're calling it moxie. I love how they talk about it now. Yeah, he's kind of been the same person throughout. Always play with the chip on his shoulder, always that team guy. And that's one thing that I think some leaders bring, an extra enthusiasm, an extra piece. Baker Mayfield does always have that and I love leaders that bring that. I'd rather much rather pull the, pull the reins in. But Baker wasn't successful other round because what was around him, his team wasn't quite there, didn't have all the pieces and blah blah, blah. Well, then he gets hurt. Then he, then he struggles a little bit. He finally lands with the Rams and on a few days notice goes out and wins a game off the cuff. His talent and everything he brings, his leadership. So he bounces again, finally wounds up in Tampa Bay. That's a fit. And that mentality that they bring and sometimes that's a Thing in itself is, is you got to have the right organizational fit, because leadership, the same leadership, doesn't fit in every organization. The principles are all the same, but you got to lead a different way in certain organizations. And I say number two is you got to have that team. You've got to have a team around you, because there's no I in what we're doing. I grew up collegiate baseball, both my boys, collegiate baseball. And we always found the analogy was, it's all about team because somebody's got to play in right field because invariably that ball is going to find them when it matters.

B (31:17)

Yes, absolutely.

A (31:18)

We see it in playoff baseball. We see it in other things. So having your team around you is critical. And not just the right people, but the right skill sets and developing those skill sets around you and below you and above you. I think all those things are very, very important.

B (31:35)

And being intentional about every single aspect of what you just said. So regarding change, Chief, I found out the other day because Nick Saban had always said it, because we're talking about Oklahoma football, but we'll stay college football. I heard Nick Saban say it, but then when I rewatched Moneyball, rewatched Moneyball actually just a week ago, and it actually, Billy Bean said it, he says, adapt or die, right? And that it was as simple as that, because you have to be able to adapt to your environment, to the culture, to the leadership, or you may not fit. It might not work. So regarding change, how, what's something you would suggest to firefighters and trying to embrace change because you know it's coming, it'll always be there?

A (32:12)

Well, it is our world. The expectations on, on our business is higher than it ever was because our constituents, our citizens are more educated, they're more demanding, they have higher expectations than ever before. But we're introducing new technologies, more levels of service, higher levels of care, higher levels of training. So they should expect that. Sometimes, I think, as leaders, helping people understand the why. And I know a lot of people have always talked about the generational changes. Well, the new generation wants to know why. Because it wasn't like it was 30 years ago, because I said so. And I think that helps us as leaders to understand the why, and maybe our why sometime we can do it differently or things like that. But I think understanding that why we're making changes, why we're doing those things, because we can't act on emotional reasons, right? If we don't do this, this whole area is going to burn down or this is going to happen. We can't do that anymore. We have to use data. And my. My city manager right now, and he will not hear this, but best boss I've ever had. But it took me a little while to kind of learn his style as a deputy city manager, and really for me to sit down and kind of educate him on some certain aspects of response. And so that I knew his expectations, he knew mine, and he understand that the language and my needs, and I could understand how he wanted to hear it. And since then, the best relationship I've had with a boss in my career in 33 years as far as a city manager and fire chief. And so overall, I think change for us, and there's no sacred information there. I'll take information directly from a leadership team or a city manager's discussion, and I'll take it right down to my troops that might be delivered a different way, but there's no sacred information of why we're doing things. And I want my troops to understand. I want my command staff to understand, hey, here's the. Here's what's in front of us. Here's why we have to do it now. How do we get it done? Because there's a lot of different ways to get there. And my idea may not be the best, but if they understand the why, they're going to find out the how.

B (34:29)

Wow, I love that. It's a good way to put it. So leaders must understand the why. They must know the why, but then they must be able to explain the why to the troops, but be able to communicate it in a way where they can understand and comprehend it. So, Chief, what I'm curious about is, is you've been a fire chief at three different departments. You've come from Oklahoma, you're in Arizona. You've seen a lot of change. I'm certain of it being. The topic is about change. But how has your leadership style evolved throughout your career, and how would you attribute your success to the continued evolvement of it? Because we're all evolving as leaders. We're all changing and growing. So talk about the style and how you lead and how you're successful because of it.

A (35:10)

So I would say the number one thing in my leadership that's changed over the last 15, 20 years is depth. 1. It's. It's. I'm a. I'm a student of the fire service. I learn, I train, I read. I do all these things to develop myself personally and professionally. I put myself out there in uncomfortable situations. I go teach. I do those things. But in Those I'm learning as much as anybody. But the other thing, the depth is the understanding outside of the fire service and the impact that the fire service has on not only the community, but other departments. In my case, I'm in a municipality. That's where I've always worked. But what's my effect on my partners, my other departments, my other department heads, etc. And, and how do I understand their world? How do I partner with them that do certain things? So I do, I call it strategic planning sessions. But me and some of the other directors here, economic development, community services, development services, IT finance, we'll go have a drink in a late afternoon and just talk about business. We'll talk about what's going on and build those relationships to where it is exactly that. It's a relationship. So when I'm sitting down with a friend, finance director, or me and the community services director are working on an initiative, it's not just two directors, it's Jake and Miranda that are working together. It's the economic developer director who is being approached by these different businesses, such as a data center or something like that. And her first reaction is, you're going to need to talk to the fire chief because he's going to want a fire station here, let me connect you. And so we can start that dialogue. And in a lot of cases I don't have to do anything because that relationship has already, already been built. And I would say that's depth. I would say the knowledge, my resource base across the fire service. I can pick up the phone right now and call another chief, another friend in the state, out of state, and get kind of information on, about any topic. And I'm fortunate that a lot of people have my phone number and call, hey, I need to talk about this. So I think that's depth. I think challenging ourselves as individuals and learning and reading and doing these things also important. But so is those relationships and, and that the. You said it earlier how intentional you are in those. And I'm very intentional in those relationships and maintaining those. Because at the end, in a budget process in a municipality, we're all competing for a pot of money. And I think it's very important they understand why. Why is Jake asking for another fire engine? And kind of, they understand that and kind of understand my needs as well as me understanding theirs. And there is some give and take there and some prioritization amongst my friends and directors. Wow.

B (38:11)

I mean, depth. I've never heard face, you know, termed that way. I love that depth. You're learning as a fire chief, you're still learning it just as much as anyone. You come back, you said relationships a few times again. So, I mean, the theme today is make sure you guys build your relationships, build those connections. Be a one phone call away from someone that might have the answer that you don't have. Continuing to challenge yourself. I mean, those are. Those are key. So with that chief, you talked about kind of the evolvement of your leadership style. Can you talk now about maybe a pivot that took place, maybe you going down a certain path, and then boom, something happened, whether it be, you know, a new assignment, a promotion, a denying of a promotion, you know, an emergency response that you've gone on, something that kind of happened, and then it kind of propelled you in the direction into where you're at now.

A (39:01)

So for me, it was. There is one there. There's a few different moments where I've changed my. The way I've done some things and some other things, but there's one in my career, and I've been. I've been blessed. My career is. Is 33 years. I love every minute of it. Now. People have always come back and said, hey, would you change this? Would you have done this differently? And. And ultimately, like, I think back to those uncomfortable events, and I'd like to, but if I changed any of those events, I'm not sitting here talking to you. And the reason I say that is the one event was some lessons I learned when I was the fire chief in Edmond and the way I handled some of those relationships there that eventually led to me kind of just stepping away. Me and my city manager kind of came to a crossroads, and I took a moment and I stepped away, and it allowed me a little time. I. I was. I resigned, and I really didn't have a path. I was kind of. I felt kind of lost as a leader because some of the things that I were doing was working for a mass majority. But I was focusing a lot of effort and energy on this small, small cadre of individuals who were just. Who were negative. And my leadership philosophy and theirs didn't. Didn't gauge, and I didn't adjust, and I felt that. And so it gave me an opportunity to kind of dig deep in myself and my faith and some of the things that I've done. And shortly after that, I got on Kingman, moved to Arizona, and 11 and a half years later, I'm the president of the Arizona Fire Chiefs. I'm doing some things differently just because it taught me some lessons in how Flexible. My relationships and my leadership has to be how dynamic leadership is, and it makes you really lean in. And sometimes I think pride, ego, the lack of kind of being introspective, we, we lose that. Especially when you're having success, when you're getting things done and you're being successful as a fire chief, that can be intoxicating. Yeah, but we are just, we're here. My job is to support my troops, support my members, make sure they have what they need on a fire truck, and make sure they go home safe every day. Yeah, that's my job. I love getting their budgets for them, I love getting pay raises, all those things. But seeing them go home, seeing their kids and wives at events and their spouses, that's really what it's all about. So me taking that opportunity, that one trigger to kind of learn more about myself and some of the things that I can apply differently in my daily leadership and the way I approach things doesn't always have to be my way. It's our way.

B (41:51)

I love that. I love that. And, and one thing that I have, I've learned or listened to over the months or years is just obviously allowing yourself, grace to yourself. Right. To fail yourself and to not get everything right the first time. Because no matter if you're the fire chief or a new, brand new firefighter, we, we're humans. You mentioned you're still learning as you go. Absolutely understand that you're not getting everything perfect the first time, but you use those experiences and you lean in. I love how you kept saying lean in. You lean into some of those failures, some of those mistakes, and you help yourself, you know, move forward. Okay, Chief, one advice now for young leaders in the fire service, the young listeners, what's just something that you just recommend to them to start doing today to grow their leadership potential.

A (42:36)

You've heard me say lean in, lean in. Yeah, I can't say that enough. We have to be students of our profession in every way. Learn the job above you, teach the job below you. I think those are, are so, so, so important because our world is changing. I think some of the technology AI coming online and doing some of the things, the technologies that are, that are coming, it's so important that we master our craft in so many ways. And number two, those relationships in every way, shape and form, especially as leaders, I can't say enough about those, but also know the limits of those. Know where you're spending your time and your effort and, and what's the return on investment of that time. I think that's just as important because we can spend too much time on a relationship with somebody who you're not going to change. And firefighters, there are some that are very adverse to change, and you're really not going to change them. We need to be learning, leaning into our rock stars, those individuals that have that potential that we see that can do more, build those relationships. One of the questions that, that you kind of sent me was what are some of my favorite conversations at the kitchen table? And some of that, my favorite have nothing to do with strategy, tactics, or, hey, we're building this station. We're buying this truck. It's about the Diamondbacks. Baseball, football, kids. What are your kids doing? What are your families? Because there's that element of, of respect that we have for one another. Because I respect my firefighters that crawl down the halls at 2 in the morning. I've done that piece. Now I have to. I'm doing this. And, and it is that relationship that we have with one another that's as important, if not more important, than anything we do.

B (44:30)

So you mentioned something super key, which I'll lean in using your thing of lead in. You mentioned the Diamondbacks. So Today is game three, the ALCS. You got the Mariners, 24 years later, coming back home to Seattle with the 20 lead. It was 24 years ago with Randy Johnson down there, I believe, at the Arizona Diamondbacks. So let me go a little bit off script here. Who do you got in the World Series and who do you have winning at all?

A (44:58)

So since my. The D backs aren't there. Yeah, yeah. I will say, just like football, I've, I've gravitated over the years to not just one team, but watching different players and things like that. If you're in Arizona, you cannot say you're a Dodgers fan. You just can't. However, their, their roster is wild.

B (45:20)

It's pretty wild.

A (45:21)

I can't bet against them. I can't bet against the Dodgers. I think Seattle will get there, but I don't think it matters. I think the other three teams can combine an all star team out of the three of them. Yeah. The Dodgers will still beat them.

B (45:33)

They're. They're. Wow.

A (45:34)

They're.

B (45:34)

They're starting rotation right now. Wow. That's. Yeah.

A (45:38)

Will hit eventually.

B (45:40)

True that. I mean, yeah, if you're gonna take that. If you're gonna take a guy that's on a slump and just say and wait. He's probably the guy, right?

A (45:47)

Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

B (45:49)

All right, well, continuing this, Chief, as we wind down today's, episode. I just want to say thank you so much for. For giving us everything you have on leadership, on change of relationship succession planning, and the above. So what's your favorite book? You mentioned you had a bunch of books. Some I can see, some the camera can't give. Offer a book or two that you recommend the. The listener base grab on to.

A (46:10)

So. Oh, man. So the one. I'm actually reading it right now, I'm about three quarters way through and by far the best book that I've ever read. Oh, wow. That's Once an Eagle. Once an Eagle. It's required requirements, reading it at West Point, and I kind of got it from a. A television show. And that's. I'll warn you, it's 1200 plus pages. It is a novel, but it's a story and it's leadership. And it shows an individual going through the. The great wars and that as he progressed and persisted and just, it's. It's fascinating. The others. I mean, I. I can pick up about any book, but I read outside of the fire service as well. That's kind of one of my drifts that I'd say I get into the terminal list and some of those that kind of take your mind away from the everyday stresses of our job, but absolutely. Get an opportunity. Wants an eagle. I'm telling you, it. It's hard to put down. Wow. Put down.

B (47:12)

Now, you. You rarely have someone say, this one book is my favorite book. You get a bunch of people that say, I like this book. I like this book. But for someone to say, best book you've ever read on leadership. Here we go.

A (47:24)

Well, I get again, if you can see my. My office, I have books. I have them at home. It's kind of my little niche. And on my bed stand, I have like six different ones I'm reading at different times because their leadership. Do this. Be better at this. Do this.

B (47:40)

Yeah.

A (47:41)

The Once an Eagle actually shows a story of a man going through life and how he did things. And it's all these leadership principles, but you actually get to see it applied.

B (47:50)

I love that. And.

A (47:50)

Which is something. It's just like an interview when you're teaching people how to do an interview process.

B (47:55)

Yeah.

A (47:55)

My youngest son is like this because I told him, hey, do this, do this. I had other firefighters. All right, you need to say this. You need to say this. But he never said the words himself. So when he gets to one of his first interviews, he bombed. It was terrible because he never said the words. He never really went through the script. And I think for us it's easy to say that we need to do these things as leaders, but to see a story of a man going through this and how he applied those in very difficult situations, for me, it really, really resonated. And the story aspect and seeing leadership in action, wow, it just really, it really stuck on for me.

B (48:36)

I love it. Once an eagle, 1200 pages for those committed ones. There you go. That's awesome. Well, Chief, we're here today because of the leadership challenge. You were challenged to be on the show, actually by myself is who it was this time. I reached out to the, to the group network. Chief Brugman said reach out to the Leadership Crucible Foundation. Obviously, you're on the National Advisory Council and you were one of few that said I'll be on the show. So thank you. I also would like to mention that you work with Chief Rain Gray, previous chief on the show about a year or so ago over there at Buckeye. But for us to continue the conversation around leadership, we've talked about perspective today. We talked about going outside, we talked about staying inside. There's so much perspective out there that the listener base can learn from. Is there someone else out there that you would like to challenge to help us continue the conversation?

A (49:25)

Well, there's a lot out there and one I would say is Tom Jenkins, retired chief out of Rogers, Arkansas. The other, the other I will give you in its instate. And that is that is Randy Chevalier. He is the fire chief of Timber Mesa Fire District. Randy just became the chief a couple years ago, but he was there in the early formations of, of the Timber Mesa Fire Department when there was some embezzlement, some other things going on in his department. And he was integral in stopping that, being a part of that. He's an amazing storyteller. But Randy also just lost three firefighters in the last. He's the individual that I talk about earlier, but an amazing man. An amazing man. Very grounded. His home is rock solid. His wife is solid. Amazing man. Wow. Been through a lot and has great perspective and he's, he needs a relatively young leader, but I respect, respect the hell out of him the way he's handled himself early in his career, becoming a fire chief and now dealing with tragedy. One of my favorite humans ever.

B (50:41)

Well, obviously hearts go out to. Prayers go out to the individuals of Timber Mesa and everyone there. But I would like to say thank you for helping us reach out with the challenge of Tom Jenkins and Randy, how do you pronounce his last name?

A (50:53)

Chevalier. And I'll get you. I'll get you his information. I'll.

B (50:57)

Awesome. I think we're going to be extending the gap of Arizona leaders here on this show.

A (51:02)

So you said you wanted the best. I did.

B (51:06)

It's awesome.

A (51:07)

Tom is from Arkansas, so.

B (51:09)

Yeah, that's right.

A (51:10)

Don't, don't hold that against him. Don't hold that against.

B (51:12)

No, no.

A (51:12)

Definitely won't.

B (51:13)

Before we get your lasting thoughts to the group, Chief, I understand you're an author, you speak nationally. Where do we find your writing in case the listener base wants to kind of capture on some of your articles, some of the books or things you might write, or how do we find you in a class or course that you may teach nationally?

A (51:29)

So I think go back in some of the articles in Firehouse Fire Engineering. It's been a minute. There's several of those out there.

B (51:38)

Yes.

A (51:39)

Get out to the Excellence Conference for accreditation. Oh, that's right. Fri. Some of those. So try to get out and about. And we'll love to talk to anybody. Fire service anytime.

B (51:50)

So awesome.

A (51:51)

Love it.

B (51:52)

All right, so Jake Rhodes, find out Fire Engineering. Find them at Fri and some of these other national conferences. Reach out if, if, if some of this resonated with you and you want to talk to Chief some more. So before we close today, Chief, lasting leadership thoughts before we close?

A (52:10)

Well, it would be to never forget the why, why we do what we do, why you do what you, why you do, what you do, the calling that we had, the every day, the importance of our positions, keep leaning in, keep doing what we do. And there is no minimum standard. There's not. We have to bring it every day.

B (52:34)

Thank you, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable and we hope that we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.