Episode Overview

Podcast: Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Episode: 83: Jake Rhoades, Fire Chief – Leading People through Change
Date: October 23, 2025
Host: Berlin Maza (and Deputy Fire Chief Bill Mack)
Guest: Chief Jake Rhoades, City of Buckeye Fire Medical Rescue Department

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Fire Chief Jake Rhoades, a 33-year fire service veteran, on the topic of "Leading People through Change." Chief Rhoades discusses his journey through multiple fire departments, the evolution of leadership in the fire service, the role of education and emotional intelligence, succession, building intentional relationships, and practical advice for leaders at every level—especially while navigating organizational change.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chief Rhoades' Approach to Leadership and Training

• Customized Leadership: Leadership principles remain consistent, but styles must adapt to each organization and context.
  • "The same leadership doesn't fit in every organization. The principles are all the same, but you got to lead a different way in certain organizations." (00:01, reiterated at 31:02)
• Value of Teamwork: No leader succeeds alone; success hinges on a strong, diverse team.
• Outside-the-Box Training: Arizona’s officer academies focus on real-world issues, case studies, and challenging discussions, not just theory or manuals.
  • Chief describes facilitating two unique programs:
    • Chief Executive Officer Program – for fire chiefs and top officers, focusing on forward-thinking leadership.
    • Battalion Chief Academy – practical, multi-day program open statewide, emphasizing challenging discussions, current issues, and real case studies, not just textbook theory.
  • "Everybody's kind of clamoring for this level of training." (06:49)

Emphasis on Emotional Intelligence & Implicit Bias

• Progressive Curriculums: Programs include long sessions on emotional intelligence and implicit bias, facilitated by experts familiar with the fire service.
  • Not easy but necessary conversations, especially with high-ranking, seasoned professionals.
  • "What we don't focus a lot on is people, emotional intelligence, and how to really handle incidents that occur in our firehouses, outside of our firehouses, dealing with customers." (10:14)
• Honest Conversations: Some officers are initially defensive, but the goal is self-awareness and growth.
  • “She had the members...fire chiefs and chief officers...People saw that they were biased in certain areas. And her point was we all are in some degree. The importance is to be aware of that and combat that in some way.” (12:57)

The Role of Relationships in Leadership and Change

• Arizona’s Leadership Culture: Chief credits Arizona’s supportive, inclusive, and relationship-based fire service culture for its abundance of standout leaders.
  • "The relationships we have here in the state are second to none... It's really a thing." (14:46)
  • Gives real examples of mutual aid and emotional support after tragedies—a testament to the cohesiveness and mutual respect among Arizona’s fire chiefs.
• Intentionality: Effective leadership and successful change management are rooted in intentional, genuine connections across all organization levels and regional boundaries.

Leading People Through Change

• Navigating Change: Chief describes arriving at several departments as an outsider tasked to spark change—typically to address deficiencies and bring fresh perspective.

  • Success at three departments attributed to:
    • Transparent communication
    • Strategic planning & vision articulation
    • Building buy-in around core values and mission
    • Prioritizing service to members and community
  • “Setting up a strategic plan, having that vision, buying in on our values…were really the focus. So we could really focus on the service to the community. The Service to our members, and then live within our values.” (19:14)

• External vs. Internal Hires: While bringing in chiefs from outside is often celebrated for new perspective, the same is not always true for other ranks. Internal familiarity at the captain/battalion level remains important, but sometimes limits the benefits of fresh perspectives.

  • “We want those for our members because they know one another... But the hard thing is leaning into them to where they understand the whole buddy to boss concept.” (22:37)

Difficult Conversations, Accountability, and Leadership Development

• Difficult Conversations: Most leadership challenges are NOT about emergency response but about managing people, accountability, and interpersonal dynamics.
  • “Most of the problems that I encounter...are not from a medical call gone wrong or a fire gone wrong...it’s from lack of supervision or the way an issue was handled in a station." (26:45)
• Leadership Training: Realizes importance of embedding difficult conversation practice and emotional intelligence in officer development. Reading about hard conversations isn’t the same as practicing them.
• Talent Versus Development: Talent is everywhere, but true success comes from organizational and personal development and the right team fit.
  • “Everyone’s talented...but you see some that excel and some that don’t. It’s because of development.” (27:27)

Adapting Leadership Style & Personal Growth

• Depth and Perspective: Chief’s leadership style has evolved to value depth—of knowledge, relationships, and understanding beyond his own department.
  • "The number one thing in my leadership that's changed over the last 15, 20 years is depth." (35:10)
• Building Bridges: He builds relationships with city officials and directors, which smooths budget processes and helps align priorities across departments.

Pivotal Leadership Moments

• Personal Failure as Growth: Chief describes a moment in Edmond, OK, when a handful of negative individuals absorbed too much of his energy and philosophy mismatch led to departure. That event prompted introspection, new opportunities, and a commitment to adaptable, dynamic leadership.
  • “I was focusing a lot of ...energy on this small cadre...who were negative. And my leadership philosophy and theirs didn’t gauge, and I didn’t adjust...” (39:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leadership Fit:
  "The same leadership doesn't fit in every organization. The principles are all the same, but you got to lead a different way in certain organizations." (00:01, 31:02 — Jake Rhoades)

• On Emotional Intelligence:
  "What we don't focus a lot on is people, emotional intelligence, and how to really handle incidents that occur in our firehouses, outside of our firehouses, dealing with customers." (10:14 — Jake Rhoades)

• On Defensive Reactions in Bias Training:
  "Some of the members actually got a little defensive until... the explanation of 'it's okay. Yeah, it's okay. That's why we're here, is to realize that we all have these in certain ways.'" (12:53 — Jake Rhoades)

• On Change:
  "Firefighters... hate change, but we also hate the way things are... we want progression, we want better things, but we don't want to go through the... challenges that go along with it." (18:16 — Berlin Maza)

• On Teamwork and Fit:
  "You got to have that team. You've got to have a team around you because there's no I in what we're doing." (31:02 — Jake Rhoades)

• On Adapting to Change:
  “Adapt or die.” (31:35— citing Nick Saban and Moneyball)

• On Communicating the “Why”
  "If they understand the why, they're going to find out the how." (34:29 — Jake Rhoades)

• On Self-improvement:
  "Learn the job above you, teach the job below you." (42:36 — Jake Rhoades)

• On Leadership Books:
  "The best book that I've ever read... is Once an Eagle. It's required reading at West Point... it’s a story and it's leadership." (46:10 — Jake Rhoades)

Advice for Emerging Leaders (Actionable Takeaways)

• Lean In: Be a student of your profession, always learning and always contributing up and down the chain.
• Master Relationships: Build your internal and external network—be the person who’s “one phone call away.”
• Prioritize Self and Team Development: Seek growth through both self-initiative and organizational training. Recognize that fit, depth, and relationships can be as crucial as technical talent.
• Communicate the Why: Don’t just give orders—share the rationale transparently to achieve buy-in.
• Don’t Fear Change or Failure: Embrace discomfort, reflect on and learn from setbacks, and allow yourself grace.
  • "Allowing yourself grace to fail...no matter if you're the fire chief or a...firefighter, we're humans." (41:51 — Berlin Maza)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:01 / 31:02 — The need for adaptive leadership styles & teamwork
• 04:01 — Inside the CEO and Battalion Chief Academy programs
• 10:14 — On moving beyond tactics to focus on people and emotional intelligence
• 12:53 — Experiences in implicit bias training
• 14:46 — Why Arizona breeds strong fire leaders: relationships & support
• 18:16 — Why leading people through change matters; the fire service and change
• 19:14 — Strategic planning and communicating a vision for organizational change
• 22:37 — The challenges of inside vs. outside hires at different ranks
• 26:45 — Why difficult conversations are the toughest part of the job
• 31:35 — The “adapt or die” mindset for organizations and leaders
• 35:10 — How Chief Rhoades’ leadership has evolved: “depth”
• 39:01 — The pivot point in Edmond & learning from negative experiences
• 42:36 — Key advice: “Lean in; learn the job above, teach below”
• 46:10 — Book recommendation: Once an Eagle
• 52:10 — Chief’s final message: “Never forget the why...bring it every day.”

Book Recommendations

• Once an Eagle by Anton Myrer
  • “By far the best book that I've ever read... It's required reading at West Point...” (46:10)
• Chief also reads “outside of the fire service” for perspective and stress relief (mentions The Terminal List series, among others).

Guest Challenge & Future Guests

• Chief Rhoades challenges:
  • Tom Jenkins, Retired Chief of Rogers, Arkansas
  • Randy Chevalier, Chief of Timber Mesa Fire District, Arizona

Lasting Leadership Thoughts

• “Never forget the why—why we do what we do, why you do what you do, the calling that we had...keep leaning in...There is no minimum standard. We have to bring it every day.” (52:10 — Jake Rhoades)

How to Find Chief Rhoades’ Work

• Articles in Firehouse, Fire Engineering
• Speaker at national conferences—Excellence Conference, Fire Rescue International (FRI), and others.
• Available for contact via professional networks and fire service events.

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