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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 86: Leigh Shapiro, Deputy Chief - Mentorship & Coaching
01:28:47
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The guy who has everything around his neck, he's ready to do this, can't do any of it. And then when the bell hits, you go out the door. You can't perform, you can't produce, you can't do your job. No results because you're prepared, but you're not ready to work. You don't have the willpower, the fortitude. You don't have the skill sets. You might not have the experience, depending on what we're talking about. You know, you might not have the interdynamics of, you know, dealing with people. So you can't get anything done because they won't work for you, they won't listen to you or you're, you're, you treat them poorly so they, they're going to react negatively. You have to be. There's a difference between having all this stuff and being able to use all this stuff effectively. That's the difference between prepared and being ready to work. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table Podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians to.
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CEOs.
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Our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders for check for extension.
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Good afternoon and welcome to the 86th episode of the Kitchen Table. On the show today, we welcome Deputy Chief Lisha Pierro and today's theme is mentorship and coaching and succession planning. Lisa Piro began his 40 plus year career as a volunteer with the Blue Hills, Connecticut Fire Department, then joined the Hartford Fire Department, serving 28 years, retiring as a Deputy Chief Senior Tour Commander. He holds an Associate's degree in Fire Technology, a Bachelor's degree in Public Safety Administration, and a Master's degree in Executive Fire Service Leadership as well as numerous certifications. Chief Shapiro operates a fire service consulting firm providing guidance on strategic and technical matters, specializing in oral exam readiness and officer secession development. He is an adjunct professor for the University of New Haven's Fire Science, an emergency management degree program, an adjunct faculty instructor for Gateway Community College's Fire Technology and Administrative degree program, and an instructor for the State of Connecticut Office of Education and Data Management's Fire Investigator Pre Certification Program. He is also a committee member for NFPA 1710, a reviewer and contributor for Jones and Bartlett Fire Service Textbooks, instructor for the New England Fools, and senior Technical and Strategic Advisor for Capital City Industries. The Chief is a contributor to Fire Engineering Magazine, an instructor for FDIC International, and author of the book An Insider's Guide to Mentoring the Fire Officer. Good afternoon, Chief. How are you how are you?
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Thank you for having me.
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Absolutely. So you are obviously the challenger, or, excuse me, challenge of Deputy Chief Nick Papa. And he was on the show, as you know, recently. And I always say we get to continue this conversation on leadership in the fire service by having different perspectives come to the show. So before we jump into mentorship coaching, succession planning, why don't you share a little bit about your relationship with Nick Papa?
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So when Nick was a. A teenager, he used to come by my firehouse on Franklin Avenue, Engine 10. I was the company captain. He knew a couple of guys there through his hometown, and he would just come and hang out and ride with us on the back step with. With my shift. And I got really friendly with him and he used to come all the time and ride. And as he got older, he showed more of an interest in the job and he started to test and I just helped him out where I could and just we became friends and I followed his career path to where he is now, and I just help him out as best I can. But he. He would ride the back step. He would come to work more often than some of the guys I worked with, you know, riding with us, and just got to be a lifelong friend. Wow. And I'm thrilled to death that he got where he wanted to be in terms of his career path.
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Yeah.
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And he's a super smart kid and, you know, I can't say enough about him.
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Yeah, no, he was on the show and I mean, you could tell with the. The way he talks and speaks and the topics. He was a super passionate individual, I'm sure, as you know. And so it was. It was very cool to kind of see him on the show and then to challenge you to be on the show, one of his mentors, and then you writing the book on mentorship and so forth. So this is really full circle to kind of see all this, this relationship and all that. So it's. So, Chief, you've done a 40 plus year career.
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You. Yeah, still. Still chugging along.
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Still chugging along. So talk about all that. You know, talk a little bit about Chief Shapiro, your. The beginning of your career in the fire service and what you do now because you do so much still.
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Well, I guess you could start from when I was 5 years old and I took an interest to the local firehouse, and my dad used to bring me up there and put me in a fire truck and put on the helmet and sit there and take pictures. I still have those pictures. And then when I used to stay at my grandmother's house. She lived at Evergreen Avenue in Hartford in, in the 70s. And I used to stay at her house on over there. And the next street over was Engine 11's house. And they were super busy chasing fireboxes all night and putting out fires. And I used to hear this constant sirens, constant in and out of the firehouse all day, all night. And I just took a real liking to that. And of course the movie Towering Inferno came out in 74. And you know, what kid doesn't like that movie? And it just, you know, I just pursued it. The more I saw and the more I got interested in it and then just kept pursuing it. And I was interested in high school and they had a special program called community school in high school where you got the shadow a specific job or somebody in a specific job field. And I shadowed the, the Yukon Fire Department paramedics for about two or three months. And then I was the first one to ask the city of Hartford to let me shadow them. And they let me shadow them.
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And I was.
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Spent about three or four months down there doing each division, one week in each division. And I got really familiar with the Hartford Fire Department and I said, this is the only place I want to work is Hartford because this is, this is it. It's a city operation. It has everything I'm looking for. And I tested and got on a job and I spent 28 years there.
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Wow, you're 40 plus years and you're still going. You obviously you write Fire Engineering magazine. You.
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Yeah. You submitted another article today.
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As a matter of fact, it's on. I'm going to assume it's somewhere on mentorship, coaching, succession planning. It's a.
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The theme of the article is if you're an officer and you make a decision, stand behind your decision.
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Okay.
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Examples. I give experience examples and I give, I give some. Some input as to how to get there. But if you're an officer and you make a decision, stand behind your decision. If you need to amend a decision or different, you have a different input, some updated information, then go ahead and modify your decision. But basically, you know, don't, don't run from it or blame somebody else or, you know, if somebody challenges you, you're an officer. Yeah.
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Take control. Fan presence. Well, I want to talk about this book here, Chief, because as you and I talk, you know, we first exchanged information just about a month or so ago, maybe a little bit longer. I read really slow. I went through it and read it, and there's some stuff I want to highlight because I resonate with a lot of the stuff here. I love mentorship, I love coaching. The book is titled An Insider's Guide to Mentoring the Fire Officer. So I love that because mentorship is always taking place and a lot of time, rightfully so, mentorship is spent training the new person. The new person being like the rookie, the apprentice, the probation, firefighter, whatever. And mentorship need to take place at all levels, right? Yes. Fire officer, obviously, no different because they're also new fire officers. Be new as fire officers. So I'm going to start off with this quote. It's straight from your book.
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Yeah.
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In chapter two, and you mentioned the words, okay, you just received the shiny badge, you just got the promotion, now you're ready. But you said, not so fast. So let's start off with that point and the emphasis that you're making when you say, hold on, not so fast.
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Right, not so fast. So what makes you think just because you got pinned, that you're ready or you have enough information to do the job? Where does it say that just because you passed an oral exam or a written exam and you made the bosses happy and they promoted you, that you can do the job, sit in the front seat, make those decisions? Where does it say that? And a lot of times it's on the job training. A lot of times it's, you do something, you go somewhere, you make a decision or you're involved in something. If somebody pulls you aside and says, hey, what the hell are you doing? Or why did you do that? And there's a lot involved. It's not just, you take a test, you get promoted and now you're whatever. There's a lot involved in that. And unfortunately, in this business, there's a lot of egos involved. And, you know, a bigger presence on social media doesn't always necessarily mean that, you know, you're the smartest guy in the room. So there's a lot of that going on as well. And when you are left to your own devices and you have to make decisions that may or may not impact somebody's survival or your own survival, or just make decisions based on, you know, your authority and your leadership skills, you gotta, you gotta know what you're doing. And it doesn't come on overnight. It's like a doctor, you have to practice and practice well.
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I like how you say that. You gotta a practice, right?
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Yeah, Practice.
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You become a doctor, we'll say a brand new doctor. Why is it that, why is it that when we have to go see a doctor or specialist or surgeon, whatever. We don't just go pick anybody. We go ask, hey, who's the best surgeon out there? Right? Because you're looking for the person that has experience, that's reputable, that's been doing it a while, and who's, quote, unquote, really, really good. So when you talk about, go, none.
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Of this matters if I can't convey that to somebody else. Everything I've done is irrelevant unless I can teach somebody else how to do it. I mean, I acquired all this knowledge, skills and abilities over the years. What good is any of it if I can't give it back? What good is any of it if I can't teach other people this, that, or the other?
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So, chief, let me ask on. On that note, when you were a company officer, or even when you were a, say, a chief officer in your department, I would assume that you had the philosophy of mentorship, continuing to help others, coach others. The officers that worked with you, under you, you were developing them. When did you recognize that it was so important to make sure that the officers that worked with you were like, hold on, I know you were just promoted, but we still got a lot to learn and let's go. How is it that you were able to. Because not everybody thinks like that, right? Some people will say, hey, I'm the officer now, and here we go. I'm ready if you will, whatever ready means. But there's a level of an individual need to have that mindset. Like what you're saying. Like, yes, I was promoted, but I still got to learn each and every day. Every day. Got to learn. So how did you do that?
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To be honest, I think it's a re. Every time I got corrected, that's when I learned how to do that. Every time I screwed something up or I made a mistake or had to answer to something, that's when I did that. That's when I realized this is a two way street, the mentorship thing, you know, whatever I'm doing above me, I have to give back below me. And it's a two way street.
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Did somebody teach you that? Meaning, like, that's a. That's a very. I like that. Right? That's a very. Sometimes we think of mentorship, sometimes not always, as the more senior mentoring, the younger the new person. But mentorship is like what you said. It is a two way street.
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It is. And it's. You have to be like a pragmatist almost, because it's not as direct as you would expect it to be. I know one of the questions that you asked me here. Yeah, it's formal mentorship, right?
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Yep.
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To me, it's not necessarily formal mentorship because mentorship is where you find it. You know, one guy might give you just a small slice of what you need to know or what you need to understand. Another guy might give you volumes. A third guy might give you something completely unrelated to the fire service, but still it's relevant because you need it. I mean, I got on a job, I was 21 years old. I was a brand new father. I didn't even have a checking account. And we got into a conversation one day, me and two. Two really old senior guys about paying bills, and they said, are you serious? You don't even have a checking account. How do you pay your bills? And I told him, I said, I go down to the Cumberland Farms and get a money order. And they schooled me on how to do banking. I mean, it's not connected to the fire service, but that's where I learned how to do banking.
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Yeah.
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So it's. It's relevant. It's all relevant. It's all relevant. It's the people you're with and it's. It's where learning is, where you find it. And if you find it talking to this guy or talking to that guy.
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So it's happening. Mentor. Mentorship's always happening, right? Always. Yeah.
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Right.
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So succession planning. T. So I also read in your book, you had talked about how you tested for every exam, whether it be engineer, fire marshal, public educator. Talk about the. The benefits of that of whether it be perspective, whether it be learning different roles in the organization, whether it be just gaining as much knowledge as you can. But talk about the benefits of why you did that and why doing something like that is so important. Because here, here's why. Because some people will view it as, you know, not knowing your current role long enough, but yet you're moving on to another role or a different role. So why is putting yourself out there to test for various positions, why is that beneficial? Why did you do it?
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Well, every test that I took, I didn't necessarily either want the job or took the job. I knew exactly what I wanted. I wanted, you know, the officer level positions, but all the other exams came out in front of me anyway. So I used those opportunities to sit and take those tests and get comfortable taking the written exams and getting. Getting comfortable taking the oral exams. You know, in the event I did want to get promoted into a different job, that was always an option if, If I scored high enough but it was never really about, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go into the fire marshal's office or I'm gonna, I'm gonna do another job. Public, public education job, special services we used to call it. I wasn't really interested in that stuff, but I was interested in the exam. I want to see what's on the exam. Because the more exams you take, it's the same 75 questions on each exam. And then the other 25 were basically specific towards the job that you were testing for. So I gotta, got to see the same questions over and over and over on these exams. So when I really wanted the job and I had sat for the written exam for a lieutenant, captain, deputy chief, by the time I got to deputy chief, I'd seen these questions a dozen or so times. I ended up getting a 93 on the written because I'd seen these questions so many times. And I learned study skills and how to take an exam and, and what's important, what's not important and all these different things. I was very practiced in the exam taking. Same thing with the oral, the oral board, you know, it was pretty straightforward in terms of what they're looking for. You just need to know how to answer the question and hit those bullet points. So you practice. How do you practice? You keep taking the tests over and over and over. And that's, that's why I did it.
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And so would you say that's, that's okay? Yeah. So I can talk, talk a little more in depth about that. And I'm just intrigued because I'm one that would take a bunch of tests. Right. I'll put in for positions that I wouldn't say that I didn't want. Every position that I put in for, I wanted some were more desirable positions. We'll say, we'll just use the example of training division. Or people would probably rather go to a training division spot than say support services, logistics or something like that. Right. But there's a benefit of putting yourself out there.
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Right?
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There's a benefit of learning different roles, gaining new perspectives. There's a benefit of test taking. Right. Time management skills, all the above. But some people will just say, will view it as well, why are you going to that. Why are you just bouncing around to different divisions? Why aren't you just staying in a role, learning it, being really good at it for. We'll just throw an arbitrary number out there for five years, then move on. Because there's different schools of thought. Right?
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Right.
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So talk about why it's okay to just say, you know, I want to put myself out there and just go learn different roles and go sit in this division for two years if I get accepted. In addition to what you're saying, learning how to test, take, put yourself out there, you know, interview skills, those are, you know, obvious benefits as well. But, but it's okay to just put yourself out there and go to new divisions, talk about that.
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Well, I'll give you two examples and hopefully this can. When I took the deputy chief's test, I don't remember exactly the number, but there was like 11 books on the reading list. And there was like driver, apparatus operator, aerial operator, EMS books, hazmat books, department directives. It was a bunch of books on the reading list. And I went to the union one day and our union, I said, what the hell am I studying for? You know, an aerial operator, a pump operator book if I'm testing for deputy fire chief? And their answer was, of course, the health and safety committee and the, the. What they call a personnel division or personnel. Human resources. They call it human resources now. They got together and they made this reading list. And the reason behind so many books on the chief's exam was you needed to have a well rounded candidate. You needed to know everybody else's job before you started giving orders to them to do their job. So I had to know what an aerial operator was doing. I had to know what a pump operator was doing above and beyond what I see in the street. I had to know the technical aspects of it, the hazmat, the ems. So when I give the orders as an incident commander, I'm well rounded. That's the first example. The second example would be in the event you wanted to take those jobs. It's an option, but I can tell you from experience that after I left the department, I studied for fire In Connecticut. There's two halves to being a state certified fire marshal. There's the fire investigator and then the fire code inspector. And once you have those two certifications together, that equals the fire marshal certification in Connecticut. So I took that after I retired, took both of those classes, ended up being a certified, state certified fire marshal. I took them to enhance my resume, thinking that would help me find future opportunities. But I will tell you that once I took those classes, I sat there bewildered as to not appreciating what I did not know. In other words, those two classes together explained more to me after the fact as to why we do what we do and how we do what we do in terms of the fire service than anything else. And I just sat there every day in code and every day and fire investigators saying, damn, I didn't know that. I didn't know this. I didn't know that. That's why we do what we do here. That's why those things happen. That's why this is this. That's why. And it kind of just all drew everything together for me in one big package. Having that newfound knowledge and for understanding. And I don't know how things would have gone if I had done that before I retired, but, yeah, I'm thankful that I got that information and that knowledge now. So it's, it's very important to sit and take these classes and understand the job and the material and the information because it's of benefit.
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B
Yeah, well, you said something is very important because when I heard you said well rounded is a word term, I heard you say you were well rounded as an individual and that's why you would put yourself out there to learn different positions. So also what I heard was to be well rounded, you would take on other positions because you wanted to learn other roles. So if you were ever going to be, say, a chief officer or someone that was in charge of certain divisions, you understood those other roles. But you can only do so if you put yourself out there. And I'll use the example of we'll just use the training division. Right? The tra. If you put yourself out there to do a day shift position in training division or logistics division or health services, whatever it is, you become well rounded to later on versus taking on a single role, be very, very, very good at it.
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Right.
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And I don't want to discount, you know, staying in a certain role for a long time being very competent, because that's important too. But if you're very well round or very competent in one role, you were very competent in one role versus being really good at knowing three roles. So I guess where I'm going with that is going with your concept of being well rounded. It's, it's. You're Lee. You're always giving yourself an option, like you said, but then also you just have a better perspective for the entirety of career. And again, I'll use the example of what you said about the fire marshal. Some of these things you probably wish you knew when you were still a firefighter company officer.
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Oh, yeah. It would have definitely made more sense of what I was doing if I had had that knowledge. And you know that, that whole. That there's a lot of naysayers out there and of course, there's always going to be naysayers. Just the fire service.
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It's the same out there in the east coast, too. Okay.
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You know, you're gonna get a guy who will say, jack of all trades, master of none, and I beg to differ. I disagree with it. I mean, I'll give you an example. We had a guy who was in our fire marshal's office for the majority of his career. Probably of the 25 or so years he was on the job, 20 of them were in the fire marshal's office doing whatever. He tested for a line deputy, got promoted to line deputy, and he was. He proceeded to take that job and become a disaster because he had no feeling or understanding of the line deputy job. He just got promoted. He just took the test and he scored high enough and he got the job. He was a disaster because he just. He was doing this crazy stuff and dangerous stuff and didn't understand. And anybody who said anything to him, it was always a confrontation, and it was just. It was bad. And that's what you get when you come out of an office after 20 years and you sit in a chief's car and you start making decisions. What are you drawn from? What well of knowledge are you pulling from? That's my question, because it shows.
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B
So another question I would ask Chief is let's. Let's play the other. The other side. Let's say an individual that will just say 20 years on shift, say firefighter, engineer, company officer. We'll say never did a day shift position. We'll just use an example. Never spent time in whatever, an administrative staff position, day shift, learning different roles, what headquarters doing, whether it be payroll, training, logistics, sports services, health and safety, whatever. Is there also a detriment to that, to where you only have shift experience? You move up the ranks to say a deputy role, fire chief role, will say, but you never had previous experience working in an administrative role.
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I wouldn't say a detriment. I would say if you had an opportunity to spend some time outside of the firehouse in a detailed position or maybe a temporary position, then do it, because that's where you learn the bodies are buried. Just ask Nick. Nick Papa got promoted to captain, but it was a. A staff position. And I called him up and I said, hey, congratulations. He goes, yeah, I really want to be in the firehouse. I want to be on the line. This isn't what I want to do. Said Nick, you're not looking at it the right way, bro. They're doing you a favor. Doing you a favor. He goes, what do you mean? So now you get to spend time upstairs in the office and see how the places run and see what's. What goes into how the fire department is run and see all the different aspects and the angles and get to know people and get to know processes and get to know information and again, find out where the bodies are buried. And he says, yeah, you're right. And like two years later, he come out of that office and went on back on the line and he goes, man, what an experience. He got to do all kinds of different things. Run the training class and do this and do that. He helped write some department policy and he, he was doing stuff with like, funding and whatever he was doing. Great learning experience. I understand his mentality. I wouldn't want to leave the firehouse either. I wouldn't want to leave shift work either. But if an opportunity presents itself to make you more well rounded and give you an opportunity to understand exactly what we do and why we do it, I would recommend taking that opportunity. Because you never know.
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Never know.
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You never know. I'm telling you right now, he still uses what he learned. He's what he understood, what he learned. He uses it on a daily basis because it's all relevant and it's all connected.
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All connected. I like that. It's all connected.
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Yeah. I was the assistant chief for about a year. I went up, I took a detail, I went upstairs. I was at number two in the department for about a year. And man, oh man, what an enlightenment that was to get to see how things are run. And I have to spend some time at city hall, dealing with city hall and just behind the scenes and dealing with a lot of discipline issues and a lot of policy issues and a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of personalities. And it was just a great learning experience. And, you know, it is what it is. I was grateful for the opportunity. I learned a lot.
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B
Yeah, that's. Well, the fact that you mentioned that there's so much learning to be had, so much perspective to be had. You get to push yourself out, we'll say, out of your comfort zone, to learn things that you otherwise would never put yourself out there to do. How beneficial would it be, hypothetically speaking, if you were able to say you ran a department chief and you said, okay, every captain has to do a day shift assignment before, you know, for whatever, or battalion chief, you know, to. To circle them through to. So they all learn where the dead bodies are. Right. So they can all gain that new perspective. So they all Gain new skill sets, new appreciations, new perspectives. What, what would that be like? Well, how, how beneficial would that be if everyone in, in upper management will say, whether it be captain, potential chief or higher, all had to do a firm at headquarters, we'll say, well, if.
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It'S possible, if the union okays it, and it's possible. I think it's a fantastic idea because you really get to see how this place is run now. Don't forget in 9 11, when, when things went bad, they were missing a lot of guys to, to run the place and they had a, you know, a lot of field promotions and they had a really, you know, supercharged their administration because a lot of guys are just weren't there anymore. And this is how you ready your department and your people for something like this. You know, the same thing in the. Well, something similar in my department where we had a mass exodus. You know, the top third of the department literally just walked out the door when the contract expired. And that left what I call the not ready for prime time firemen to run the place. And you know, because the mayor wanted to save some money, this is what happens. They, they got the contract, so you lose the top guys. So that the guys who are coming up all of a sudden now, they're put in that position, some of them are not ready, some of them were not ready. And it's just, you know, unfortunate. Yeah. But if we can, we can get.
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B
Them ready, get them ready. I like that. We can get them ready ahead of time. Be proactive, not reactive. Right. Because the fire service, obviously, Chief, is. We're built about being reactive is what we do. Right. We, we wait for the call and we go respond. But being proactive, what you're saying for preparation for the, you know, what may happen, you hope never happens, but you might have to, you might have to have certain individuals step up. And if you're not ready. Well, there you are.
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Yeah, I mean, like I said, you know, we lost the top third of our department just practically in a matter of months because of the contract expired. And the new contract is gutted. The old contract. And there was like no reason to stay. So a lot of guys just left.
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B
Yeah.
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And unfortunately, a lot of the guys who, who stayed were not ready, not prepared, or they were preparing, but they just simply didn't have enough time to prepare. And then they had to wing it. Once they got in that position, they had to wing it.
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B
Yeah. So let's, let's stay there for just a second because I'm very interested on this part. So you mentioned they had to wing it. So did that change the way your organization did business for the future? Meaning you had indiv. You had a third of your department. Mass exodus. A lot of individuals are now put into roles due to default. They need to fill positions, and they had to wing it. So did that change the culture moving forward to ensure that if something ever that happened again, that you wouldn't have to wing it, because then you change the way you prepared people, if that makes sense, moving forward?
- [31:12]
A
I. I can't speak directly to what they're doing now in terms of preparing the guys, but I was a big advocate for education. That's where I got my own education, you know, in the firehouse, online, taking classes, whatever certifications. I was always big with that too, because that's another measure of knowledge, skills, and abilities, Even though it's. It's, you know, kind of basic. And now I see that the testing process is leaning more towards. You need certain certifications before you can actually sit for the exam, which is great because it really. It puts some teeth into these positions. In other words, you don't just pass an internal test. And here you are like it's always been. You have to have. You have to bring something with you to the test. The only problem that I have is you have to make that opportunity for those certifications equal for everybody. Can't expect someone to go and test for a job and say, these are what you need to bring with you, these certifications. You need to have the sip of these tests. You have to have them available. The opportunity for each one to take those classes. And then you can ask them to sit for the exam because it becomes a. It turns into a good old boy network where only certain guys get to take these classes for whatever reason, time, money. And then only certain guys get promoted because the other guy didn't have an opportunity to take this class, get a level of the playing field. They use the race car analogy. I heard a story years ago. I was watching TV one day. I heard a story that one of these race car big shots developed an engine that would go twice as fast as everybody else's car. And he was going around the track twice as fast as everybody, beating everybody. Nobody could compete with this guy because he had the best engine, right? Well, how do you make that fair so that the organization that ran the racing track or organization, they said, you got to give that engine to everybody. Now it's a fair test. Now use your skills to see how fast you can go around the track because everybody's got the same motor.
- [33:21]
B
I agree.
- [33:22]
A
That's, that's the analogy I use.
- [33:24]
B
I, I love that analogy. It goes to, I have a lot of different metaphors that go along with that. But yes, all you're trying, all you're doing is making it equitable for everyone. So everyone has the opportunity to have the same access to this resource, this class, whatever.
- [33:37]
A
And then you test.
- [33:38]
B
And then you test. Now you have everyone. So your pool is like, okay, you might have 20 people because everyone had the same opportunity to take those two 10, 20 classes. And now let's go.
- [33:48]
A
One guy might not have enough money to take this class. Another guy might have small kids at home. Another guy, you know, he's busy, he's trying to, you know, he's got a second job to take care of his family. You have to give these guys and girls the opportunity to take these, these certifications and then give them the test.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah. So let's talk about that real quick. Is higher ed you talk a little bit about in your book, is higher education important? And then certifications. Right. Because some, there's again, we'll always talk about the dichotomy here. There's another mindset of like, oh, you know, certific doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is street credit and, you know, street experience. And then there's another philosophy of, no, higher education is important because it teaches you all kinds of things. Knowledge, skills, abilities, time management, meeting projects, meeting deadlines, communication, whatever it may be. But there's a balance, I think. But is higher education and getting certifications getting X amount of classes done? Is that important or is just street credit and street experience more important?
- [34:45]
A
Again, what's the pool that you're drawing from? What well are you dipping into to get your knowledge, to use your knowledge? You know, years ago, a degree in the fire service was irrelevant. You don't need that. I used to, when I was studying for my degrees, guys used to tell me, what are you doing? You don't need that. Come out and back and sit and smoke cigars with us. I said, I will when I'm done with my homework. I'll come out back. But let me knock this out. I got a couple hours of homework. I got to write a paper, this, that, whatever. Now to get promoted, a lot of departments require some type of education, formal education, to get promoted into leadership positions or higher ranking positions. And it's, it's very relevant now. But again, don't, don't confuse street cred with Training, education, and experience. That's completely different. You can be greatest firefighter in the world to be the. Be the worst officer because you have no managerial skills, you have no experience running anything. Your organizational skills suck, but you're a great fireman, and vice versa. You could be a great officer. You know, everything in the office is perfect, this and that. Everything is running fine. But you get out in the street and you become, you know, paralyzed mentally. You can't do anything. You got to find that balance.
- [36:08]
B
Balance.
- [36:09]
A
Yeah, it's that balance.
- [36:11]
B
So, obviously, higher education is important. Street credit and street experience is obviously important, but there's a balance because one doesn't translate to the other necessarily. I love the way that you said, yeah, you might be really good on the streets, but you come back to the firehouse and you try to organize and do everything else for the day, and you suck. Or vice versa. You get everything in line at the firehouse, but you go on run a call, and you suck there, because there is a balance. And so higher education is important because there's a different skill set, different set of knowledge, different set of abilities outside of just fighting fire, obviously.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah. This is not our grandfather's fire service anymore.
- [36:48]
B
Yeah.
- [36:49]
A
This is a thinking man's job now.
- [36:51]
B
Yeah, well, expand on that, too, Chief. Just. I love where this is going. So you say this is a. A thinking man's job. So talk about that dynamic, that dichotomy. Right, where.
- [36:59]
A
Where we're.
- [37:00]
B
Right. We're not fighting fire every single day of our careers anymore compared to 40 years ago. So talk about that difference in fire service today on the different sets of knowledge, skills, and abilities that we need today.
- [37:12]
A
Well, you have to look no further than your podcast with Nick, and he was going on and on and on about ventilation and this and that. I'm getting a headache listening to this. But he's right. You need that. You need to understand what we're doing now. There is science behind what we do now, whereas years ago, not necessarily. Not too much science, but nothing's changed. Cavemen were putting water on fires a million years ago. What's the difference between that and what we do now? We're still throwing water on fire. It's just how we do it and our methodology and the science behind it.
- [37:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's.
- [37:45]
A
That's what's changed.
- [37:47]
B
You talked about in your book, too, organizational skills and emotional maturity. I love that because you don't hear that often. So talk about the need for incident commanders is what you talked about. But I also say And I'm sure you were. You're referencing this too. In a good leader, an effective leader needs to have organizational skills and be mature. So talk about that dynamic and why that's so important for both incident commanders and just an effective leader.
- [38:15]
A
Well, the higher up you go in the ranks, lieutenant, captain, chief officer, you really have to have exceptional organizational skills. I mean, my, my job before I retired was a tour commander. I used to run the city, so that meant I was doing the day to day operation of running, you know, the 17 companies, getting stuff done, scheduling overtime, putting people in, in the overtime spots for events that were coming up, putting, moving people around, doing payroll, doing fire inspection reports, whatever I had to do with that. Just a lot of desk stuff. And then if the bell hit, I would have to go out and manage an incident as an incident commander. And then if there wasn't an incident, but there was some personnel issues, I'd have to go through the firehouse or to an address and handle a personnel issue. Or if there was a citizen issue, I'd have to go and handle the citizen issue. Or if there was a problem with a business or an institution within the city that was required an immediate intervention, so to speak, and have to get in the car and go deal with that. And then of course, the administration, you know, they're, they just, let's just make things a little more difficult for your day. You know, let's just throw some stuff at you and see what happens. Have to deal with the administration. So I'd have to go upstairs and deal with them, or I'd have to, whatever, you know, interact with a division within the fire department, training division, fire marshals division. And it was just one of those things where you really had to know what's going on, how to, how to be very organized, extreme time management skills because you can't be everywhere. How, how to understand and, and find the, the root cause of what, what somebody's telling you and what the, the easiest solution is to get it rectified so you can move on to the next problem as opposed to, you know, dwelling on it. When I went upstairs as the assistant chief, my boss, the fire chief, he used to, he used to get upset with me all the time. He goes, why are you done with this already? I said, because the world that I come from requires me to do my job now, not tomorrow. You hand me something, I get it done. You throw me something, I get it done. I don't wait till tomorrow or put it all off or do this or that. If it can be done now. I do it now. And he's like, well, you know, that's different than what we're used to. I said, well, then, here I am. Get used to me, because this is how I run my stuff.
- [40:57]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:59]
A
That was the world that I came from. Was it? Everything was the immediate. The other thing was personnel issues. They don't teach you how to deal with human. The human dynamic. There's no book, right, the fire service that says, when you got a problem employee, this is what you do. This is what you do. Manual. You have to. You have to. You know, you have to do a lot of research. You have to do a lot of reading. You have to talk to a lot of people and be a student of that, because that's 90% of your problem is human dynamic. It's not the fire. Every fireman knows how to put out a fire.
- [41:34]
B
I'm gonna sit. I'm sending the edge of my seat now. Chiefly because we got into a topic that I love. So obviously, we talked earlier about being well rounded. We talked about maybe going to an administrative role, if possible. So you get to learn what the dead bodies are so you can learn a new perspective. You could see how the business is run, how the fire departments actually run.
- [41:51]
A
Buried.
- [41:52]
B
Oh, sorry, what did I say?
- [41:54]
A
Well, that's. I think that's what I said first. Where the dead bodies are.
- [41:56]
B
But that's buried. Okay. I was like, oh, wait, did I say something? Okay, so now let's talk about this, because you just named a bunch of skill sets that. That effectively, just a few out of that. That leaders need. You said organizational skills. You said ability to manage personnel issues, ability to manage citizen interventions or citizen problems, and administrative skills, extreme time management skills.
- [42:18]
A
So I forgot to mention what you had mentioned, which was emotional intelligence, emotional maturity.
- [42:23]
B
Okay, we'll talk about that in a. In a minute as well. I want to capture that, because you said something so key, Chief, is these are skill sets that we're not training for, right? Firefighters, we f. We train in the academy, and when we get, you know, come to shift, how to put out fire, do ems, that stuff. And then we. But you just said we need to have all these other skill sets. But where are we learning these skill sets, Chief? So, like, how do we bridge that gap? And I know it's. It's a. It's a rhetorical question, right? Because even if you're not getting the skill sets, you got to put yourself out there. You got to read your own books. You got to go to classes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if we know these are so important skill sets, we're not making these things mandatory to train to get these skills to then move up in the organization. Right, right. You refer to the Peter principle, Chief. We do everything so well at one level, and then we promote up to the next level until we're no longer effective. And so we want to obviously not witness or not experience the Peter principle in our leaders. But there's a lot of skill sets, Chief, that are. That we need, that you mentioned. How are we bridging that gap? Emotional intelligence being one of them. How, when are, when did you recognize that these are skill sets that you need to learn? How did you gain these skill sets? What classes did you take? Did your department support you? But then also on a more general level, how do we make sure that our upcoming leaders have these skill sets?
- [43:48]
A
That's. That's one hell of a question.
- [43:50]
B
I know it's, it's deep, but it's. But we need it, right?
- [43:52]
A
We.
- [43:53]
B
We need it.
- [43:54]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know where to start with that because there's so many different things that are required.
- [43:59]
B
Right.
- [44:00]
A
I would say again, learning is where you find it. I don't think there's a class that you can take to learn how to be emotionally intelligent or emotionally mature or how to, how to wrangle your emotions. That's something I think you just have to learn on your own. Yeah, but there are classes you can take to learn the understanding of how to handle people through formal education or maybe not necessarily fire training classes, but there's academic level classes. I'm sure some, some are out there that you can, you can take to understand human dynamics. I mean, I took that in college, so. Yeah, you could. There are actually classes.
- [44:46]
B
Yeah.
- [44:46]
A
Human dynamics and you know, the thought process and understanding your audience and all that stuff and how to, how to effectively lead and manage people. You know, I, I kind of squirm when I hear the term lead leadership used nowadays. It's such a broad based, broad stroke term leadership. And a lot of guys, they think because they're promoted or they have the rank responsibility in a badge that they're, quote, a leader. And that, you know, might not necessarily be true. This is a skill set you have to hone and there's a lot of it, There's a lot of things that go into being an effective leader. And you know, I mean, I mean, we could pick this apart all day and night and still wouldn't hit the nail on the Head.
- [45:44]
B
Agreed.
- [45:45]
A
But I would say that you just need to figure out how to get things done, what it takes to get things done and how to, how to communicate. Because the communication, any relationship, I mean if you have, if you have problems with your wife or your girlfriend and you have communication issues, you think you're going to go to work and it's not going to be communication issues. There's going to be the same problems. It's different, different set of people. You know, if you don't communicate up or down in your department, then you're, you're going to have information that's being missed.
- [46:23]
B
Self awareness, right?
- [46:25]
A
A lot of guys, yeah, a lot of guys, you know, like, like reference in the book. How dare you ask questions to the chief officer. How dare you question him? Well, that's not what I'm doing. You're misunderstanding what I'm asking. I'm not questioning him. I'm trying to learn from him. I'm trying to understand why he has this, he or she has this thought process again, the opportunity to go upstairs and beating administration, learn why we do what we do. When I took the fire investigator and the code investig inspector, this is why we do what we do. It all made perfect sense sitting through this class, these classes, because you got to ask questions. You got to understand there's more than just what you think you know. And you know, you just got to be a student of the fire service. That term has been beat to death. But it's true, you have to be a student. It's like being a doctor. You have to practice and get your skills and hone your skills and learn something new and hone those skills.
- [47:25]
B
In the book, Chief? Yes, in the book. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this too because I love quotes. And so a lot of these are just straight quotes from your book. The listeners are gonna have to buy your book. They want to really dive into stuff I'm talking about here. But I love, I love, I love how you say this. You said the foundation of your position and you're referencing a leadership position and or a company officer position is to teach, train, inspire, influence and guide your personnel through demonstrated action. So what I didn't see in there was the foundation. Your position is to run the call, cut open the roof, extricate the patient. That obviously goes without saying. That is part of your job. Those are tactics. Right? So you talk about the proactive things, the things that we need to be doing before the call, throughout, in the firehouse on a daily basis. Getting better every day, being a student. So, I mean, so often we talk about the job being as what we actually do, meaning the tactics that what you're saying. Oh, what do you do? Oh, I fight fire. Oh, I, you know, respond to EMS calls. Right? I cut. I cut holes in the roof. I rescue people, whatever. But you talk about it just so simply. It's like, no, we train every day, we teach every day. We influence each other, we guide each other, we mentor each other. That's what we do. So talk about that.
- [48:37]
A
Where do I start?
- [48:38]
B
Well, I know. I mean, it's just. It's so key because those are the things that we. I'm not saying we don't focus elsewhere.
- [48:45]
A
We.
- [48:45]
B
Yes, we focus on. But. But are we teaching each other every day? Are we inspiring each other every day? Are we influencing each other? Are we mentoring each other every day? Because these are the things, right? When you use percentages, the chief officer told me one time, he ran the numbers, he's like, 70 some percent of your time is not on a call. And so that means, like, you're only on a call at 22, 26% of your day. So what are you doing with the 76% of your day or whatever it was? And it's like, in this case, we'll use your context. Or we're teaching, we're training, we're inspiring, influencing. You're guiding, we're mentoring. That's what we're doing. Right? So, I mean, I love this. I just put those two together and it's like, yes, that's what we need to be doing. But I just. I guess it's more just. I appreciate how you mentioned that. Like, that's what we are doing as leaders and officers in the firehouse.
- [49:31]
A
Okay, so in the firehouse, you're not, you know, you're not on a call. You get a new kid just out of the academy, comes to your firehouse. Fridays, it's lawn day. Let's go cut the grass in the firehouse. This kid's a city kid. He's never touched a lawnmower in his life. Well, guess what?
- [49:48]
B
We're gonna have a drill mowing the lawn today.
- [49:51]
A
Mowing a lawn drill? What does that mean? Well, how to use power equipment safely, how to fuel it, how to maintain it. You know, this, that, whatever goes into that, that's a company drill for his benefit, but for everybody's benefit. And it's not. Oh, you know, you start yelling at the kid because he's stupid or he doesn't know how to use a lawnmower? No, it's a training opportunity. And this guy's standing around who might not know any more than this kid does, but don't want to say anything because they're embarrassed or they're shy or whatever. So we're going to do it for everybody. That's. That's the influence, the guiding, the mentoring.
- [50:27]
B
Love that.
- [50:28]
A
And then when it comes time to fuel up the power saw or fuel up the generator, all right, they got a little bit of experience fueling up the lawnmower. Everything is a learning experience. Everything is an opportunity for you as an officer to spend some time with these guys. It's the spending of the time and your time teaching them and showing them and explaining things. Like I said in the book, there's a quote that I use. The greatest gift a father can give his kids is to love their mother. Well, the greatest gift an officer can give his crew is to spend time with them. Not just go hide in your room, watch tv or not just go and come out of your room for the toilet or for food or. We only see him when the bell hits. That's not the guy you want to be with. You want to be with a guy who's with you all the time, who's showing you, you know, we get done. Got a call at an EMS call. We're still in the building. Come on, boys, let's take a walk. Let's look around. What can we see? What can we find? What can we learn? What do we know? What don't we know? Perfect opportunity. You know, I'm not saying that 3:30 in the morning is every. You know, it's a perfect time for a drill. I'm just saying, come on, you know, seize the moment at times.
- [51:44]
B
Yeah. Look for opportunities. Don't wait for opportunities.
- [51:47]
A
Right, Right. Interact. Interact.
- [51:50]
B
Yeah. Okay, I got one more here, chief, because I've heard this a couple times, but I always highlight it because it's so true to everything we're saying. You also mentioned in the book, Find a mentor, but also be a mentor.
- [52:04]
A
Yeah.
- [52:04]
B
So that's. That's a techy concept. So how important is not only, you know, having your own mentors to help you develop in your own skill sets and helping you reach your aspirations and goals, but purposefully getting out there and being a mentor to somebody else. So how do you suggest that a mentor seek out a mentee?
- [52:27]
A
Well, you kind of do that in the firehouse already by being the officer. You're showing them, you're demonstrating when you Go on a call, you're being watched, Your behavior is being watched, your interactions are being watched. When you interact with people, other people are watching. The way you conduct your business, the way you, you know, you have an even keel emotional set to handle things. The way when everything is going crazy, you're maintaining your composure. When something is. Something comes up where it's a technical thing or it's an administrative thing, and it's well above and beyond the capacity of the people you're with, and you have the answer, or you have the skills, or you have the understanding or the experience to be able to handle that you're being watched. So you, you automatically kind of gravitate people towards you. And the same thing at the higher level. I referenced a couple of guys in the book who, I didn't necessarily claim them as a mentor, but by being around them and by learning from them, whether it was quietly learning from them or just openly being taught, that's where the knowledge came from.
- [53:55]
B
So.
- [53:58]
A
You, you can ask guys if they need a hand, need help. You want me to explain something that's kind of in the formal track? But a lot of people, if they see how you are and see how you behave and see how you handle things, they will come to you and they will ask you questions. And that's when the door is open and the floodgates open and you let them have it because that's an opportunity to, to guide somebody or to be, quote, unquote, a mentor.
- [54:26]
B
There's your opportunity. I like that. Like how you said the floodgates are now open.
- [54:29]
A
Yeah. Necessarily within your department. It could be anywhere. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'll teach a class somewhere, and afterwards someone will come up to me and say something. I go, yeah, let me tell you about my experience with that. And I'll tell this little anecdotal story about how I handle this. Didn't handle it the right way or whatever. And man, oh, man, they walk away and they're like, damn, there you go.
- [54:50]
B
Yeah, I like this one, Chief. Nothing kills a good employee faster than you tolerating a bad one.
- [54:58]
A
Well, I didn't invent those words, I just repeated them. But that is true.
- [55:02]
B
Yeah. Talk about that. True.
- [55:05]
A
Well, I mean, specific to my department, you know, they, they, it's an administration, a city administration, city fire department, they have their political issues. They're told what to do by city hall about certain things and how to handle certain things in a certain way. And, you know, you get inconsistencies in, in, in Discipline. You get inconsistencies in training and inconsistencies in opportunity. You know, the discipline was a big one that was completely inconsistent at times, and it created a negative environment. It was. It was just. It was toxic almost. It eroded a lot of people because you see somebody do something and nothing happens to them, and then you see somebody do some. Somebody else do something, and, you know, they want to. They want to fire them. I mean, where is your consistency and discipline and the training and the expectations? We have policies and procedures, but what good are they? You know, certain people can do this and certain people can do that, and nothing happens. And it's. It's. It's a problem. And I'm sure that's. That's everywhere, not just the city department. I'm sure there's small departments who have those issues as well.
- [56:18]
B
Sure.
- [56:19]
A
Yeah.
- [56:19]
B
I mean, what's the saying is, you know, if you're an effective leader or even if you're a poor leader, I should say, at least be consistent. Yeah.
- [56:30]
A
Where does that leave me now? That nothing happened to this guy or that guy or this group or whatever.
- [56:34]
B
Yeah.
- [56:35]
A
And now what does it do for me? It just shows me that I don't have to try as hard. I don't have to do as well.
- [56:40]
B
Right.
- [56:40]
A
I mean, that's the message I'm being told, is don't worry about, you know, doing. Doing a good job, because if you screw it up, nothing's going to happen to you.
- [56:48]
B
Yeah.
- [56:49]
A
And that's. That takes good employees and ruins them because, you know, you're sending the wrong message.
- [56:56]
B
Yeah. Why do I need to do more? Right.
- [56:58]
A
So we want to get away from that. We don't want to use that, you know, embroidered on our sleeve and say, well, why should I try harder?
- [57:05]
B
Right.
- [57:05]
A
We want to get away from that. We want to break that. Never mind what the other guy's doing, never mind his problems. And whatever happened to that other guy, you do you. And you do as best as you possibly can.
- [57:15]
B
Yeah.
- [57:15]
A
Because the only person you have to answer for is yourself.
- [57:18]
B
Yeah. All right. How about this, Chief. What is. What do you see as a challenge in the near future? Neither fire service leadership or mentorship. And how do we address it?
- [57:31]
A
Well, there's plenty of challenges.
- [57:33]
B
There's plenty of challenges. Yes, there is.
- [57:37]
A
I asked my students at school last year to make me a list of trends and challenges in the fire service. They. They gave me a huge list. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna. I'm gonna crank out an article just on that one list. It's amazing what's going on nowadays because, you know, everybody talks about generational and, and this and that. That's a big part of it. But there's, there's other challenges as well. And it's just the fire service is chock full of challenges.
- [58:06]
B
Yeah.
- [58:07]
A
I mean, what's a big one earlier about, you know, going from a more of a hands on approach to a scientific approach doing this job and more of just a hands on approach to. Now it's an educated approach to doing the job. You know, the equipment is more sophisticated, technology is more sophisticated. Policies have to address everything now. They can't leave anything to chance. It has to be written down somewhere for you to be able to say, yes, this is our policy. Because if it's not written down and it gets scrutinized, you're in trouble. Yeah, you know, I went through a line of duty death some years back and the policies of what we do on the fire ground, a lot of it wasn't written down. It was just kind of handed down and we got dinged on a lot of stuff because it wasn't written down anywhere. Like how to put on a house fire. You would think something as basic as that. And it doesn't need to be written down. It does. There's procedures involved in something like that. So you got to really be, as an administrator, you got to be really thorough with your, you know, running the place and having everything up to snuff. In terms of accountability, safety standards above and beyond what the standard is, the national standard. I mean, if you, if the national standard is, is just bare minimum, maybe you should do better, you know.
- [59:29]
B
Well, let's talk about that. Can we talk about that real quick, Chief?
- [59:32]
A
Sure.
- [59:32]
B
So bare minimum, minimum standard, we'll talk about that. Because there's two thought processes, I think, on minimum standard. Minimum standard. One thought process is minimum standard is okay because that's the minimum. And as long as you're meeting that bar, that's fine. There's another thought process is we should be way exceeding bare minimums. There's a dichotomy there. There's a difference in philosophy. Many would think that we should always be trying to be way above and hikes high, exceeding and so on and so forth. But then there's a lot that say, well, no, as long as you're meeting the standard, you're, you're just fine. Talk about that dichotomy.
- [60:11]
A
The standard is, you know, the basic. Yeah, it has to be cut off somewhere and that's the cutoff. But if you have certain target hazards that need to be addressed repeatedly, you, you have to go above and beyond that standard. I mean, if certain things for bare bone minimum will work and that's cost effective and you know, you can, you can do that and it doesn't really impact safety, that's fine. But when you start to get into areas where, you know, for example, our rescue unit just did a water rescue and, and it didn't go as well as planned. And they almost lost two guys in this water rescue. This was a mutual, a call out of this, outside of the city and the town that they were helping out. They were under prepared and understaffed and under, under equipped. So they call us our guys. They went up there, set up their stuff, did their thing. Come to find out, even we are under equipped, under trained and all the holes that we found in our policy in terms of the swift water rescue. So because they almost lost two of their guys and this is the professional career department, we need to do better. We need to figure out what we're missing, what's lacking, how to, how to be better at this. Because if we go back in six months to the same call and do the same things and the same thing happens again, what are we doing? We're going to blame it all on money. We're going to blame it all on wallets, the other guy, come on, we got to do better. We got to do better. We got to take some money from somewhere or get some money from somewhere, then buy the stuff that we need now, today. Or as I like to say, you know, okay, so we remove the money component somewhere in this state or around this state, there's a department who is getting rid of older stuff. They're, they're throwing it away. They're, they're trying to sell it, they're going to donate it, grab it. If there's a department that has 10 or 15 of whatever we need and we only have one or two, borrow some borrow stuff, call the manufacturers, say, hey, we want to, we want to put one of these on our trouble. We don't know which one to buy. Give me one of yours to try out for a year, okay? They fall over their own feet helping you. You can get stuff without spending money. Money is not everything. And my, I used, I got in a big argument. My chief one day, he wanted to throw me out the window. So why couldn't we do this? Why couldn't we do that? Well, you know, we don't have the money to do this. And we don't have the money to do that. I said, chief, with all due respect, if you had a stack of $100 bills from the floor to the ceiling, you still couldn't get anything done because all you see is the money. So now I'm going to go out the door and be deficient again because you say we don't have the money, and I might end up killing one of my guys because we don't have the money. We gotta, we gotta do better than that. We gotta, we gotta stop thinking about that as the barrier to everything.
- [63:17]
B
Yeah.
- [63:18]
A
Figure it out.
- [63:18]
B
Yeah, figure it out. I like that. And figure it out.
- [63:21]
A
Get creative.
- [63:22]
B
We can get creative. We talk about this all the time on this show. Firefighters are creative. We are. We are. We, we're smart. We're very skilled. We can be creative on how we train, how we do business. We can be innovative. We can. Right. Just ask. We'll come up with some weird ways how to hang out of a tree and blah, blah, blah. But a quote that I've heard, Nick Saban said it, and I found out later on that he got it from Billy Bean. I'm sure he got it from somebody else. They talk about adapting. You got to adapt or die. If you don't adapt, you're not going to make it. You're not going to survive. Your competitors are going to surpass you. You're going to be doing business the old way. People are going to get hurt, people going to get killed. But you got to be able to adapt. You mentioned we're moving to a technology based. We're moving toward more of a science based, academic based fire service. Not right, not wrong. It's just we're progressing. Things are different than it was 40 years ago. But you have to be able to adapt to where we're at right now. So if we don't have money. Okay. Don't let that be the excuse to everything. Find a way to get things done. Be flexible. Change the way you do business. But I, I love how you mentioned that we, we gotta. We gotta be better. We gotta find out ways to be better.
- [64:27]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that, really. You have to stop thinking about, oh, you know, why we can't get something done.
- [64:36]
B
Yeah.
- [64:36]
A
And start thinking about how are we gonna get this done? What are we gonna do? How are we gonna get it done?
- [64:43]
B
Yeah.
- [64:44]
A
You know, you apply that mentality when you're in a building fire. You apply that mentality when you're at an extrication or a technical rescue you might not have the fanciest of tools or this or that, but we can use one for something that wasn't designed for or intended. But we can do. I mean, how many electricians banging a nail with a pair of pliers where in the manufacturing thing for the pliers to say it bangs in nails too? It doesn't. But we, that's what we do.
- [65:14]
B
We'll make it work.
- [65:15]
A
Make it work out.
- [65:17]
B
I love that.
- [65:18]
A
Figure it out.
- [65:19]
B
I love that. Figure it out. Be better. Strive to be better. I love that.
- [65:23]
A
Because eventually you will be better because you can do all these extra things and you can go above and beyond what the expectation of the bare bones minimum standard is by doing all these extra things. Now, don't get me wrong, technology has its place, but as its technology is just another tool in a toolbox, you, you have to have that knowledge, skills and ability to be able to apply the resources effectively.
- [65:48]
B
Absolutely.
- [65:49]
A
You know, I can, I can. I reference in the book, you know, there's a huge difference between being prepared and being ready. You know, we're prepared. I've seen departments, they spend millions of dollars on a rescue truck with every tool imaginable on it. Then they go to an extrication. They can't pop a door because they don't train, they don't practice, they don't have any experience, whatever the reason is. And tools fail. Technology is designed to fail. So now what do you do? You get to the roof, the saw won't start. What do you come back down and start crying? Don't come down until I see a hole in that roof. That's what I used to tell these guys. When you're finished, then you can come down. Otherwise, I'll see you when I see it. Open the roof, you have an axe. Use it.
- [66:35]
B
Prepared versus ready. What do you mean by that?
- [66:38]
A
Well, I mean it's, it's spelled out in the book pretty well, but there's a huge difference. I'm prepared. Departments are prepared. We have equipment, sometimes the best of equipment, a lot of it. We have policies, do this, do that. We have the training. We, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. We have the experience level. We're prepared to do anything. We have all this stuff. We're ready to go out the door. We're like Gilligan's Island. He's got everything wrapped around his neck. He's ready to get on a boat. That's the schmuck, right in the series, the guy who's everything around his neck, he's ready to do this. Can't do any of it. And then when the bell hits, you go out the door. You can't perform, you can't produce, you can't do your job. No results. Because you're prepared, but you're not ready to work. You don't have the willpower, the fortitude. You don't have the skill sets. You might not have the experience, depending on what we're talking about. You know, you might not have the interdynamics of, you know, dealing with people. So you can't get anything done because they won't work for you, they won't listen to you, or you're, you're, you treat them poorly so they, they're going to react negatively. You have to be. There's a difference between having all this stuff and being able to use all this stuff effectively. That's the difference between prepared and being ready to work. And, you know, we can go back to, you know, 40, 50 years ago when they had wooden ladders and brass butts, you know, cotton jacketed hose, 750 pumps. The, they were putting fires out. Back then with the Rockwood nozzle, Navy nozzle, it wasn't as effective, it wasn't as fun maybe, but you know, ladder pipes and stuff now everything is different now. Everything. The technology has changed, it's adapted, it's improved. But can. We're still doing the same stuff though. We're still doing the same thing. We're still throwing water on a fire.
- [68:40]
B
So. All right, huge difference.
- [68:45]
A
Especially the chief level. Yeah, chief level was, Everything was, you know, hit it hard from the yard, stand outside and lob water on it. No more. You have to know your enemy. And your enemy is not the fire. The enemy is the building. That's what's going to kill you, not the fire. Fire is going to do what fire does. It's what it does to the building. And that's what happens to firemen. The building does some funky stuff and the next thing, no, it's killing firemen.
- [69:10]
B
So as we wind down, chief, I want to ask you this one question. What is non negotiable to Chief Shapiro?
- [69:19]
A
I don't know. I just, Just do your job. I mean, you're here for a reason. As an officer, you're here to make decisions. So make decisions. You know, I was told my first, my first time acting chief officer, I was an acting chief officer. My boss, he says, okay, you know, you're gonna be in charge today. You're, you're in the Red car, blah, blah, blah. I go, okay, what do I do? He goes, I don't know. You're in charge. Figure it out. You're acting chief. Act like a chief. Okay? All right. You gotta just do your job. You know, we're not here to make excuses. We're here for results. You know, just, just do your job. I mean, a lot of guys, they, they, they come on the department and then they, they leave because this is what I expect. I didn't expect this. This isn't what I signed up for. Yeah, what part didn't you sign up for? Did you not understand what the fire service is all about? Did you not think that by going to a two alarm fire there might be somebody dead in a building, a body cooked beyond recognition? That's your job to deal with that? Did you think when signing up for the fire department that you would go to a call on the highway to do an extrication and there would be pieces, parts all over the highway and you're extricating parts instead of a human being, a live human being. Did you, did it not cross your mind when you signed up for this job? Or did you think I was just going to sit at a desk all day and maybe go on a couple of silly calls and not do anything? Did it not occur to you that when you pull up to somebody's address when they call for an EMS call and the mother is throwing their, their infant at you and the kid's blue and she's screaming, do something. Save my baby. Do something. Did you not think that there was a high stress environment or that maybe you should be prepared to do your job, whatever it takes to save that kid? Did it not occur to you that that was part of what we do? Or did you just watch 911 on a TV show and everyone's happy and the uniforms are perfect and the firehouse is rescue? What's the name of that show on NBC?
- [71:28]
B
Oh, which one? There's a few of them now.
- [71:30]
A
The one on Wednesday night. The firehouse is in perfect working order. It's clean. Everybody's happy to be there for the most part. You know, I. It's, it's a TV show. That's not reality. It's not reality. I remember being a new guy. I came on a job in 88. We had a housing project across the street from where I was stationed. We would go there every night in the summertime for dumpster fires. And one time the, the neighbors were all riled up about something. They started shooting at us. They were shooting at us. I mean, not directly. We weren't getting shot, but they were shooting in our area, hitting the ground, hitting the building. They didn't want us there. Did that ever occur to you that maybe, you know, you're not the hero? That maybe not everybody is happy to see you? We incur violence, too.
- [72:21]
B
It's.
- [72:21]
A
It's part of the job.
- [72:22]
B
Part of job. So do your job. So do your job.
- [72:27]
A
And here's another one I just heard. A lot of guys are not willing to take the risk for a great personal bodily injury or possible death because that's not what they signed up for. Well, I'll tell you what. You took an oath, didn't you? Remember? You swore, so that's your job. Oh, maybe I should remind you of that. You took an oath. It's not normal for firemen to die. It's not normal for you to come home busted up to the point where you're in the hospital or you're dying, but it still happens. We do everything we can to minimize that, to reduce it.
- [73:08]
B
Right.
- [73:09]
A
Currents and the frequency and the impact. But it's still there.
- [73:15]
B
It's always there. Always there.
- [73:17]
A
It's there. That's the job. Yeah. So, you know, before you say, oh, you know, this is a great job, I get to sit on my ass and watch TV all day until three in the morning when it comes in as a building fire and there's four dead kids. Yeah. Or. Or another one that from experience, you're crawling down a hallway trying to get the water on the fire, trying to get your line in place, and you're literally, literally crawling over dead bodies to get that line in place. Because that line in place is the key component to stopping this whole thing, getting that line into action, into operation. Unfortunately, you have to crawl over some dead bodies to get that line into operation.
- [73:56]
B
True.
- [73:56]
A
That's what we do. We don't do it everywhere. We don't do it all the time, but it's part of the job.
- [74:00]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [74:02]
A
And if you're not ready to do that, then you shouldn't be here.
- [74:07]
B
There you go. It was my favorite question I've asked you all day, Chief, as we wind down today's show, obviously I want to recognize and say this again. Thank you for the book, Chief. It's the insider's guide to mentoring the fire officer. Please purchase it if you're into another book that's on not just mentoring, but really just talking about the position, coaching, training, what's important as far as being a company Officer and a leader. In addition to that book, Chief, what are some of your favorite books, Leadership based that you love?
- [74:39]
A
I got two of them right here. I got. It's your ship.
- [74:42]
B
Ship.
- [74:44]
A
A lot of guys have read this book. It's about just doing your thing your way. And a writing book. It's called Writing without. Whoa.
- [74:55]
B
What's that about? Why do you like that book?
- [74:57]
A
How to. How to write effectively. Too many adjectives or just. Just how to write effectively. How to get the message across with as little word usage as possible. It's like having a conversation with somebody and there's somewhere in there is a question or somewhere in there in that conversation is an ask. But they're just building it up and they're giving you backstory and they're giving you details and they're giving you biopics of the people who they're talking about first before they get into the actuals. Just give me this. Give me the meat and potatoes. Come on. You're wearing me out. Just communicate effectively. Don't just, you know, spin me around in circles until you get to the point because that's. That's what communication is all about. It's effective communication. It's understanding and getting the feedback that you need.
- [75:52]
B
Love that even.
- [75:53]
A
They even test that now in assessment centers. The effective communication skills. It's part of an assessment center now. Written in otherwise the in basket and organizational skills and stuff like that.
- [76:05]
B
But so let me, Let me summarize that real quick, Chief. So writing effectively, communicating effectively. Key leadership traits.
- [76:13]
A
Yes, yes, yes. I always say, you know, you can always look in to somebody's window where their mind is by their writing. You know, if you look at somebody's writing and it's. It's like third grade and you kind of know where they are in terms of, you know, their skill sets. You gotta, you gotta. Again, part of the job is. Is communication. And that means effective written communication, verbal communication, body language, facial communication. You know, that whole emotional intelligence thing. If I come to you with a problem and you immediately flip out or you dismiss me, or every time I ask you a question, you make a face and roll your eyes. You're communicating to the other guys, not to me. I already know the answer. You're. You're setting that tone for the other guys, how to react. So you really have to. You have to figure this out and be very good at it. And, you know, I'm not always the best at it, and I've been guilty of a lot of things. And if I had A dollar for every time I screwed something up. I could be a trillionaire. But you have to be conscious of that and have to understand how it affects people. Somebody comes in, into firehouse, off the street, and asks you a dumb question. Well, it's a dumb question because it's a silly question or it's redundant, or it's obvious, but to them, it's legitimate because they might not know, not see, but you flipping out or giving them a hard time or, you know, belittling them or dismissing them or, you know, something else. What do you think that does?
- [77:56]
B
Yeah.
- [77:58]
A
You send a message.
- [77:59]
B
Yeah. You're communicating.
- [78:00]
A
Yeah. You're sending a message. Yeah.
- [78:03]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Wow.
- [78:04]
A
No, I. I also believe in not taking myself too seriously. So I will goof around, name call, kid around, act silly, just do goofy stuff, because that takes the edge off. And sometimes the goofy stuff is more effective at communicating than, you know, the order, the strict order. But you got to know when to use it now. Know your audience, know how effective it is or not effective it is. Not everything is. Is. You know, there's a time and place for everything. But even that is useful.
- [78:42]
B
Absolutely.
- [78:42]
A
You know, you see, people will say that gallow is humor. They use the term. They use gallows humor. When we go to a bad call, we come back, you go into the firehouse, and, yeah, it could be heavy, it could be bad. But a lot of times there's guys goofing around, saying stupid things, talking stupid talk about what they just experienced or what they just saw. That's a defense mechanism. That's a way to relieve some of the stress, take that edge off. We used to do that all the time because it's a defense mechanism. And some people were appalled by it. And other people were like, yeah, this is. This is a good. A good relief valve because it works, you know?
- [79:27]
B
Totally. Absolutely.
- [79:28]
A
There's a lot of emphasis around the kitchen table, kitchen table this, kitchen table that. But it's not necessarily the kitchen table. It can be in the rig, be in the back room of the firehouse, sitting around, watching tv. It can be anywhere when you just have that moment of communication or that moment of clarity or that moment of taking the edge off. You know, it's not so formal with the kitchen table. Not everything is done at the kitchen table. Right. I think you referenced that. You asked me that question, and I said, basically, for me, yeah, the kitchen table was an opportunity for the guys to get involved and learn some cooking skills, learn some shopping skills, get involved in meal prep, getting involved in Cleaning and setting up and breaking down the kitchen, you know, scenario type thing. That's the kitchen table that I like to see. And then, of course, enjoying the meal, if you can. But, you know, these, these deep rooted heart to heart talks, they don't necessarily happen at that table. They happen anywhere, you know, and they.
- [80:34]
B
Can happen everywhere intentionally.
- [80:36]
A
Do they? Do. They do. And you know, when I first came on a job, it was a sit around the kitchen table with a cup of coffee. The old timers would expound in their experiences and their, their stories and this and that. Yeah, but there's more to it than just sitting around listening to you talk about. Remember when. How about we go outside and you show me how you used to do it?
- [80:57]
B
When.
- [80:58]
A
How about we go to a call and after we get done, you say, well, this is this and that's that. And this is why we do it this way instead of that way. And, you know, explain to me in depth why, as opposed to just telling me a nice story to sit around and drink coffee. It's not all about the kitchen table.
- [81:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, Chief. Well, we're here today because of the leadership challenge. That's how we've met. That's how I found out about your book.
- [81:24]
A
I got a guy for you.
- [81:25]
B
So good luck.
- [81:26]
A
Good luck.
- [81:27]
B
So, all right, so. What do you mean, so you got a guy for us? I know the name. I got it written right here. But you say good luck. Tell me who it is and why it's good luck.
- [81:35]
A
So I got a Nepo baby for you. So my oldest son is a lieutenant on the rescue company in Hartford. My youngest son is a firefighter on a truck company in Hartford. And my daughter is an ER nurse in Hartford. She's the busiest ER in the state.
- [81:56]
B
She's.
- [81:57]
A
She's an ER nurse. So my son, the lieutenant, he's going to be your next victim.
- [82:02]
B
Oh, victim.
- [82:03]
A
I already gave him a heads up. What's. What it's about.
- [82:07]
B
That's awesome.
- [82:08]
A
He is an officer. So this is, this will fit right into. He's got a different perspective on things because he is a company officer. He's been a company officer for a little while, but he's been at that rescue company for a number of years. And he's got a pretty good insight as to what it takes to run that company, what it takes to run that crew. And you know that that's a whole different skill level run being on that rescue company. We only have one rescue company. It's a heavy rescue company. Their Skill level. All the guys assigned to the thing, their skill level is phenomenal, and their training is. Is just. It's overwhelming at times. But there's. There's a good pick because he's. I'm sure he's got a lot to say about getting things done. And he's gonna reference me quite a bit because we worked together for a number of years. He was a cadet. Then he got on a job, and he worked with me or around me. And before that, when he was growing up, he used to come to the firehouse and ride with me all the time, like Nick did. But he's been around this his whole life, and now he's got his own company, and he's running his own company. You know, he's the lieutenant on the rescue company, so he's got some pretty good insight as to his angle on how things are done and make for a pretty good show.
- [83:28]
B
Yeah. No. Well, I appreciate it.
- [83:29]
A
You don't like it, you can cut him off midway and say, see you later.
- [83:32]
B
Say, no. I think I like your dad's message better. No, no. But this is great because it allows us, like I mentioned earlier, perspective matters. Difference of thought, opinion, experiences matter. Different people, listening, tuning in will resonate and catch on to different things from different people. And so this will allow us just another perspective from another Shapiro.
- [83:51]
A
Yeah, he's a younger guy, so he's got a different perspective than I do. Yeah, I'm a little older, obviously, but he's a young guy, younger guy, in his 30s, and he's got a different perspective, but he's got a huge backstory, you know, a lot of history to draw from, so he understands what it takes to get things done.
- [84:08]
B
That's awesome.
- [84:09]
A
He resisted taking that promotion for the longest time, and he finally took the promotion motion. You know, he's. He's thriving in it now, but he had some resistance to it because he didn't want to leave the rescue. He didn't want to stop being a firefighter. And, you know, being an officer, sometimes you're kind of removed from that, but he's able to do both, and it's a good pick. I'd like to hear what he has to say.
- [84:31]
B
Awesome. And this is Lieutenant Ash Shapiro. Did I say that correct?
- [84:34]
A
Yeah.
- [84:34]
B
Awesome.
- [84:34]
A
He also his. His operation. He is the owner and operator of Capital City Industries. That's his operation.
- [84:42]
B
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [84:44]
A
If you look that up, you'll see that I will. He does the equipment and apparel and the helmet modifications. That's his.
- [84:51]
B
All right, there you go lots of lean on. Lots of lean on for him.
- [84:54]
A
I work for him now.
- [84:56]
B
That's awesome. Well, thank you, Chief. So before we close today, Chief, I just want to say thank you again for spending the Last hour and 20 plus minutes with us today. You wrote the book. Yes.
- [85:04]
A
Opportunity.
- [85:05]
B
I appreciate you for giving the time the book again. One more time. Insider's guide to mentoring the fire officer. You will still be at fdic. Maybe you still write. We're going to look for your articles on fire engineering. How do we find Chief Alicia Pirro if we're looking for you?
- [85:20]
A
So this year at FDIC or actually next year at fdic, I've been bumped up. I'm doing a workshop instead of a class. So instead of an hour 45, I'm doing a four hour stretch now.
- [85:33]
B
Okay.
- [85:33]
A
On this. So I'm gonna do this, this material and I'm doing a little bit of first two boss for beginners because that, that goes hand in hand in this. And a lot of guys, you know, their first time being a front seat boss, it's very overwhelming. And they're, they're going by the checkoff sheet and they're getting overwhelmed and no, we'll just, we'll just dial it into what you need to do to be effective and we'll get into that. But if you're looking for me, I'm not hard to find. I'm all over social media. You can just send me a message on social media or my email or call me. I think the phone number is on there, but I'm not too hard to find. You just Google my name and you can see me. I'm on, I'm on all the social media and I'm just.
- [86:21]
B
Find you.
- [86:22]
A
I'm not hard to find at all.
- [86:24]
B
All right, well, I just want to say thank you, Chief, for. I mean, you're retired from the fire service, but you still contribute in many, many different ways for through writing, through articles, through books, obviously in a structured fdic. So thank you for obviously continuing to contribute for us to continue to learn from 40 plus years in the fire service.
- [86:41]
A
Thank you.
- [86:42]
B
So before we officially close, Chief, I'll leave it with this. What are your lasting thoughts you'd like to leave listeners with today?
- [86:53]
A
Well, I'm all about training, education and experience. You know, if you spend money on your education or money on books or money on getting your certifications, that's money well spent. If you, if you're spending time and money on your future, that's, that's time and Money well spent. Embrace your training. Do as much as you can. Finish your education. If you started, you haven't finished it, or get your education. I can't say enough about education. Get your associates, you know, get your bachelor's degree in, in the field of study that you're interested in. And the golden key for me is the master's degree. Get your master's degree because that's the golden key to open up all the other doors that are locked for you to advance. We're all not going to be young men and women in the future. We're going to be older. And there's other opportunities for you to, to pursue. And you. You need your education and your experiences. Embrace your experiences. Own your experiences. Learn experiences. Get involved in stuff. Put yourself in places where you would have an opportunity to get an experience doing something and, and learn from it and own those experiences. Because there's no substitute for experience. None. You cannot substitute anything else for experience. You have to. You have to have some experience.
- [88:13]
B
It's.
- [88:14]
A
It's very important and very relevant. So the three Training, education, experience. Do that, do that, do it. Well, then someday you'll be on a podcast.
- [88:28]
B
What a perfect way to close. Chief. Training, education, experience. Yeah, perfect way to close. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable. We hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.