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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 87: Sionna Stallings-Ala'ilima, Fire Chief - Servant Leadership
00:56:48
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- [00:02]
Chief Siana Stallings
Some of the people that I've admired the most on this job were not informal leadership positions. They were amazing mentors and engineers that, that were excited to teach and were amazing at knowing everything of their craft. Right. And so regardless of what position you're sitting in at any given time, coming to work and being purposeful about how you show up, being the third that you would want, you know, to be working with, you want to be, you know, the driver that you would want to be relying on if you were going in on a hose line, the officer that you would want to work for, and coming in knowing that pessimism and optimism are contagious.
- [00:46]
Podcast Host
Being rescued from a three story apartment building. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal.
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Chief Siana Stallings
Build more leaders.
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Podcast Host
Good morning and welcome everyone to the 87th episode of the Kitchen Table. On the show today, we welcome Fire Chief Siana Stallings, Ala Ilima. And today we're talking servant leadership. Chief Ala Ilima joined the Tacoma Fire Department in Washington in 2007, where she has served in roles as a firefighter, paramedic, lieutenant captain, medical services officer, assistant chief, and now the fire chief. The chief grew up in Maui, Hawaii. She relocated to the Pacific Northwest to attend the University of Washington, where she earned a Bachelor of science degree in biology with a minor in chemistry. Good morning, Chief. Thanks for being a guest today on the show. How are you?
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Chief Siana Stallings
Good morning. Thank you for having me.
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Podcast Host
Absolutely, thank you. So we talked obviously earlier and the success of the podcast obviously goes out to just the guests who are willing to spend their time to share their thoughts and philosophies and concepts on leadership. And it continues to move forward because of what we call the leadership challenge. So Jamie Formisano, who's a deputy director at Eastside Fire Rescue, the agency that I work for, challenged you. She emailed me on the side and said, hey, will you reach out to the chief and have her be your next guest? And I said, absolutely. And so that brought us here to this conversation. So I'm excited for of all, it's a pleasure to meet you. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about Chief Ala Elima and, you know, maybe upbringing, what brought you to the Pacific Northwest? Maybe a little bit of why the fire service and then we'll jump in?
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Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in Maui in Hawaii, and my mom is from Wenatchee. So over by Leavenworth, if anybody's familiar with that area. And my dad, his family migrated from Samoa to Oahu when he was 13. So he basically, him and my aunts and uncles were all raised in Hawaii. When my parents met, they were in seminary. So I have two parent pastor parents. And so we moved. We moved to Leavenworth initially to be near that family, and then we moved to Maui to be near my dad's side of the family. And it was an amazing childhood. Small town of Lahaina surrounded by community and church and family. Big family. And I'm the oldest child. So I think we're, you know, we have. The topic today is going to be servant leadership. And I think that that's really what. There wasn't a name for it. It was just life. That's your village mentality where everything, it's not about me, it's about us. And that if somebody's working, we're all working. We were taught to respect our elders. We were taught to care for our. And mentor, you know, our little cousins and our siblings because. Because that's what we do as a family in a village. And so all that to be said, went to University of Washington in Seattle in 98 and was looking to do get into the medical field. And I kind of got burnt out towards the end of that and so took a few years off, ended up, you know, thinking, you know, maybe I'd join the fire service. You know, my uncle, he was super cool, loved his job, he worked for Contra Costa. But I had never really seen women in the fire service at all. And so I didn't even ever think that it would be something, a path that I would take. And so I had some friends that were going to be signing up and so ended up getting hired on with tacoma fire in 2007. And, and, and that's how I got to Tacoma Fire Department. Now, what's funny is that my husband I met on the job and he was a volunteer at many different departments, had a lot of jobs in the fire service prior to coming here. So I have really no concept of what life is like on a district. It looks like really green grass and, you know, regional fire authorities. All I know is what I know of our department. And so, and I'm okay with that, but I recognize that there's a lot that I don't know about the fire service and the plight of volunteer organizations and some of the issues that they all run into, into within the fire service.
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Podcast Host
Well, thank you for sharing.
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Chief Siana Stallings
And what.
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Podcast Host
First thing I want to kind of lead on a little bit is you said getting into the fire service, you didn't really see many women in the fire service. Kind of like, much like me when I got in, when I started volunteering in 2006, 7ish. I too, I'm a Filipino American. Didn't really see any Filipinos at all. Especially up here in, you know, in the. In the east side area of Washington. I just didn't see it even talking to my parents, telling them, you know, I want to be a firefighter, pursue a career when I'm in my early 20s. They looked at me like. Like. Like what A firefighter? Like. Like really. Like they didn't know anything. They wondered why I even, you know, was interested. So the question that I have is when you start. First started being interested, you said you didn't see females, so how is it that you were. What drove you to pursue that? Knowing or not being able to see females in the fire service?
- [06:22]
Chief Siana Stallings
You know, I mean, the friend that I had, their. Their dad had lived in Tacoma and had passed away. And they just spoke about, you know, on. On this really bad day. Their memory was of the firefighters and them just being so professional and so supporting, and that's what they actually wanted, to drop out of college and just go be firefighters. And I'm like, I think we should finish our degrees. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because what if it doesn't work out? And so that's kind of how I even like, it got into my mind and then I did realize that there are a few females around, but you just don' See them all that much. Especially, you know, technology wasn't. It wasn't then what it is now. So it's not like there was like the Chicago Fire, where there's, you know, there's different diversities and, you know, it's. It's just different now.
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Podcast Host
Absolutely.
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Chief Siana Stallings
With tech, with technology, with social media, things like that. But, yeah, I just.
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Podcast Host
Was.
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Chief Siana Stallings
I. I was raised in an environment where if you want to do something, try, because it's better to have tried and failed than to just not. Do not step through doors because you're afraid of failure, if that makes sense.
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Podcast Host
Absolutely.
- [07:28]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah. So not knowing much of what I was getting myself into, got ended up getting hired on with Tacoma, and I was. It was kind of a rude awakening just because the first time I had ever said sir or ma' am in my whole life was when I got hired on here. So in 2007. Because where I grew up, everybody, parents, friends and family, they were all aunties and uncles. So one of my biggest points of that I got red ink and recruit school was that I was too casual. And that's hard coming from an environment where it's just casual and it's not out of disrespect because I absolutely respect my elders and I understand a chain of command because I came from a hierarchy of a family. Right. But that was kind of hard for me to learn the culture and that the command and control piece of that, I had never really seen it or been around it. So me trying to figure out, okay, how do I learn this culture and also continue to learn all, you know, I had never volunteered, try to be the best EMT I can, try to be the best firefighter I can when I'm making flashcards with a picture of a hell again, because I've never seen one. You know, obviously after the first couple days you're like, that was dumb. But I was like all I, I, you know, I was just, I was just kind of, again, everybody says drinking from a fire hose, but, you know, I'm going to give anything that I'm trying my all and, and try to do my best. And that's what I did.
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Podcast Host
And so, yeah, that's really cool. Do you have any other family members in the fire service? Meaning, like inspiration to. Whether it be younger siblings, other family, cousins. Are any of them interested now in the fire service because they've been able to see kind of your success and how you thrived?
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Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that for a lot of kids, just in general, not just ones that are related to me, it seems like a really hard job and it seems like there's no way I could do that. You know what I mean? And when, when something seems so out of reach that, like, I just don't want to do it and then either let me down as a, as a, like a cousin or let the community down or, you know, fail. And so those are the types of conversations I have with them a lot is that it is a lot of work and, and that the cost of you not being able to do that is high for the community. So there is a lot of pressure on your shoulders, but we will teach you how to do that as long as you put in the effort and work you need to, to be successful. And so those are the kind of conversations I have with young kids nowadays that are asking about it, because anybody can do it. But you have to know that you're. If you don't, if you're coming in cold it's going to be a lot more work than if you've, you know, volunteered or worked somewhere else.
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Podcast Host
I couldn't agree more. Compared to. Even when, you know, I was hired, you know, 16, 17 years ago, I think there's just. There's more interest in the fire service. I think a lot of that is. Is people seeing people that maybe historically haven't been in the fire service. Like, oh, this person. I had an individual about a year ago, he walks up to me, literally, with this recruitment event, and he walks. I can see him at the end of this speech, if you are a speaker, he walks directly to me and he says to me, he goes, you're Filipino, aren't you? I go, yes, I am. And then he just came to me because he's just like, I've never seen a Filipino firefighter before. But I think it does matter. Sometimes when you could see somebody that you haven't seen before, like, I want to ask you questions. How did you do it? Yes. Obviously, part of that conversation is, yeah, this profession is. Is challenging. It requires a lot of work, dedication, passion and all that. It's not. It's not like any other job, but I think it does. A lot of times nowadays especially, it's important for people to be able to see the others and be like, I think I can do that because I see that person doing it, and they kind of remind me of me, kind of. Whether it be the way you look, the way you maybe your background, your educational experience. Right. Because even nowadays, you see people, you know, they got a PhD, it's like, well, why are you coming into the fire service? Well, I noticed that there are doctors that, you know, leave the profession to go into the. You know, I never thought that was a thing. Well, it is a thing. And so I think it's just very inspiring to continue to see the evolving, if you will, of the evolvement of the personnel getting hired in the fire service. But point being, I think it just goes back to people seeing, hearing and understanding that it's. It's a possibility for them because of what they see or what they've heard, where 20, 30 years ago, that was rarely the case, I guess, is my point.
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Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the. We. The fire service has come a long way. We used to be a fire department, and then at some point we needed to. There was some type of event, and we decided we were going to start getting into hazmat tech, rescue fire, you know, marine emergencies and ems. Right. And so. And when we first started ems, it was only people who called for very acute issues. Now we are literally all hazard response. People don't know what to do. They are at they, for whatever that reason Is, they call 911, we go there, we say, can we mitigate it? Can we not? If we can't, we, we keep everybody safe while the people who can mitigate it are on their way. And so we are kind of a jack of all trades. And that is always, you know, evolving and, and so not only trying to keep up with what the next communities needs, you know, because we were frontline. When a new drug hits, hits the, you know, like a bad, you know, batch hits, we know it right away because we're going on those. And so firefighters really get to see how the health of the community is with a front, you know, front row view. And so to me, diversity, you know, everybody has their own definition. But for me, diversity isn't just race or gender. It's, it is what you grew up in, what, what your experience was coming here, right? Some people are, you know, are doctors. Some people work construction. Some people were working at the er, whatever that case may be. You all have strengths. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses. And we all find our way. Very few people find their way the exact way and have all the strength. That's the same. And that's what's great about life, is that we're, it would be really boring if everybody was just like me, you know, so diversity, we're paid problem solvers. And when we're solving problems that could be anything with anybody, age, gender, religion, whatever type of building, whatever the hazard is, we need as many people with as much experience, life experience and views to help us solve these problems. And I think that we're going to need to continue looking at those, like right now. Like, I know that I, we have a lot of, you know, people in our community that are not English speaking. And I, I think that, you know, we, it's, it's almost impossible to, to have people trained to speak these and then deploy them when they're needed because you never really, you can't anticipate when the need's going to be there. And so, but when I'm sitting on interview panels and I, I, I see that somebody, hey, they, they, they, they can speak Russian or they can speak Cambodian. I mean, that's always a plus on for me because they may be at the right place at the right time where they can utilize it. And if nothing else, when they're out in the community at community events that they may be able to actually speak in their native tongue to community members that will say that we'll be able to ask questions and, you know, be educated better.
- [14:41]
Podcast Host
And I couldn't. Everything you said, I first of all resonate with and agree with completely. Like, it's, it's, it's not interesting. That's not the word I'm looking. It's fascinating and, and inspiring is probably the best word I'll use to know that there's, whether it be fire chiefs or executive leaders or leaders in the fire service that not just value but will understand. For example, like in a, in an interview process, we'll use that for, as the example if an individual, say, does speak another language or whatever special quote unquote, special skill set that they might have to be able to bring into the organization to strengthen it. And I always use the diversity as the strength of diversity is bringing in a perspective into the organization or to the team. We'll say we use the word team, highlighting and bringing something in that the team doesn't currently have because like you said, if we're both the same, it becomes boring. And what's, I can't remember who said it. If you and I are the same, one of us are unnecessary. And so the more we could be different. Right. Is what strengthens the team. And so it's very inspiring that you said that right there when you said, you know, if you're sitting on an interview panel, you find out that someone speaks Russian and you understand that a large community that your jurisdiction serves speaks Russian. Well, you've just, you're going to be bringing in a huge asset. But it's super inspiring. And I, I, it's, it's, it's cool to hear that. That, that's a, that's a thought in leadership in the fire service because that's where we are. It's not just that's where we're going. That is, that's where we are today. And it's, that's inspiring.
- [16:11]
Chief Siana Stallings
Thank you.
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Podcast Host
Servant leadership. Yes, talk about that. We've, we, every listener here, let's just go and say has heard servant leadership before. Whether they read a book, they heard someone else say it, but it hits home for different people for a variety of reasons. Talk about what servant leadership is to you, Chief, and why is that so important?
- [16:29]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah, so, I mean, I kind of gave you a rundown of like, basically that's just the only view that I can't, like, I really have. Like, obviously on a fire scene, you may very well be doing commanding Control or other of those things. Right. Situational leadership. But to my core, I'm a servant leader. And so I knew for a fact that I was going to be going into public service, and then I ended up in the fire department, and I didn't really realize how much I adored the immediate gratification there is when somebody's dead and now they're alive or there was a problem. We figured it out quickly, and there was a good outcome, you know, and I saw it every day that I was. I was serving my community, and it felt really good and like, you know, nourished my soul in a sense. Well, then I start promoting, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm serving the community, but now I'm also serving my crew, right? Because what. What do we need? What are the issues we're running into? Hey, what. What's the issues with the rigs? What are things that I have control of that I can make our day just a little bit easier? Then I go up to a captain, and I'm like, okay, what would I want? What kind of captain would I want to work for? Somebody who listens to me. Somebody who is always looking out for my best interest. Who, if I. If some. If they're asked that they will at least push it up if it stops somewhere in the chain of command, you know, but at least the ideas and the issue is going to be brought up by me because I, you know, and so from a long time, it. That's just kind of how I've always felt. That's the kind of leader I want to be. So when I came to days and I no longer was in the field, it was a weird time because not only did the pandemic just hit, so I think a lot of people were feeling a little disconnected, but I had just moved into a new seat on days, and I felt extremely disconnected. And I was struggling to figure out, like, why did I take this job? I work way more. I don't see any of my friends. I'm not getting that nourishment of, you know, to my soul that I used to when I was, you know, being a hero like you guys now. And so I really had to kind of dig deep. And how I got got there was just that I realize that I'm now serving the community through all the, you know, the crews in the field. And now my job is to serve them completely. And that means that if I'm seeing issues, I'm seeing problems that I. That are. That continue to come up. Let's figure out the root cause of it and see if we can get rid of it. Right. And I'm in the seat that I have an ear of the people above me that maybe if I hate. Hey, I'm just noticing that we're seeing a lot of this. Could we do this right? It's always, it was always just to try to make, you know, the crews lives easier because I remember, you know, like sleeping on average of three hours a night where we had to do a rig swap during the day where we ran out of supplies. So now I have to run across the, you know, the, the city to grab more supplies and then we catch somebody else's call when we should be sleeping. You know what I mean? Just like just the little extra things that like don't seem like that much restocking, that doesn't seem like that much. But when you're running on fumes after a long. And now in the middle of the night, you're having to go restock. So we started working on ways to fix that. And we have so certain this. And so every position I've really been in, I'm always like, okay, here's the baseline. How can we improve it? And if every position you go into as a driver or an engineer, as a lieutenant, every day, you can show up and say, what can I do today to make our mark crew better? Maybe that's doing a drill, maybe that's talking about protocol. But there's always some way that you can just of improve. And so that's really what I've kind of. That's just kind of like how I see the world. Like I would rather spend time up trying to upstream stopping the issues from happening than continuing just to like manage the issues.
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Podcast Host
Yeah.
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Chief Siana Stallings
And so as soon as I get overwhelmed with too many issues, I'm like, all right, we need to talk about why these issues are happening and let's, let's figure out what we can do.
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Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah. So you're always thinking, obviously, long term, way ahead. And yeah, yeah, So I heard you say this. It must have been an interview or an article. It was one of those two. But you had mentioned, you know, if had you gone back 10 years and asked yourself this question or even five years ago, if you would ever go to the administrative role position, let alone the fire chief position, you would have said no. And, but yet here you are. And I think some of what you had just said obviously is the answer to the reason why. Because you have the ability to serve more, serve more people, serve different areas first. Of all have an understanding of the needs because you served in those roles, to be able to have that global view to say, you know what, I could serve these individuals better. Obviously it goes back to the, to the theme of servant leadership. And you're always looking at, you know, how can I improve just a little bit more? Because I think if we're just improving a little bit every single day, doesn't have to be mass things a little bit. I mean, you're just, you're making it better for yourself and others and the organization, if you will, just a little bit better talk a little bit about that dynamic of here you are now in an administrative role. Because I think a lot of us in the fire service, we do get comfortable in our roles working, you know, on shift nine, ten days a month, you know, and we get to go home a lot, you know, go to Costco on a Tuesday instead of a Saturday. I mean, these are, these are big deals, but. And very few people put themselves out there in these, in the role to become an administrator, executive level chief, let alone the fire chief, because now you don't get to go back to, to shift work ever again. So it's a challenge.
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Chief Siana Stallings
Something terrible would have to happen if that. That was the case. Okay, I'm hoping not.
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Podcast Host
Yeah. But so we do need people to continue to look at what you're saying is like, right. To look a step above, to be able to understand that. Yes. Although, you know, administrative work might not be as, you know, as inspiring as, you know, being on the streets as a hero. That's what you call it. But we do need people to continue to look further ahead. You did it. How do we encourage others to also maybe take that leap?
- [22:35]
Chief Siana Stallings
So I think that there's a couple of things. Number one, I remember I was basically just eligible to take a lieutenant's exam. And I knew I only had, you know, five years on the job, but I was like, well, if I take this one, it's. It's really heavy seniority. So, like, there's literally no way I'm going to get, I'm going to get promoted off of it. But if I take it, then for the next time when I have a little bit more seniority, I've seen the process. I kind of understand what that looked like. I understand what kind of questions they asked me in the oral board. I understand that, you know, just, I will be better the next time, and if I fail that time, then I'll just take it again. Right. Like, you just get better the more and I remember talking to, you know, other people and they're like, yeah, I just, I don't know. I. What if I don't. I probably fail. I just, I don't want to. And I'm like, but why? What's the, what's the harm? Right? Try. Because if you, if you get onto a promotional and that you get, you're up next and you get promoted, you always have the chance to say, hey, look, actually, I don't think I'm ready to make this change yet. And the reason is, is that my I, I just found out I'm having my third kid. And you know what I mean? Time, time. But at least you have the opportunity to make the decision versus you not doing it. Somebody who was trying to get you to do it, now they're promoted, now they're your boss. Hopefully you like them. But also you're like, dang it, man, I wish I would have. Because the next cl. The next list has so many other people on it. Right. And so to me, again, that's just like how I kind of was raised is just try it out. It's better to have options and then say no and know that I, I know the reason why I said no. But, you know, so not being afraid of taking those leaps. Number two, anybody who comes to work and just sees like this isn't working, we need to figure out whatever that may be as soon you eventually. Easy things. Okay, that's easy. The things that are going to take a little bit more, you end up getting stopped somewhere. So whether it's at your lieutenant, your lieutenant's like, that's not even important. Just do your job. Even though maybe it's. You're trying to increase efficiency or, you know, change kind of like the configuration of where the tools are held or whatever. Maybe it's lieutenant. So then that's kind of just like a. Well, if I was a lieutenant, then I could say where these are on the engine because I think it'd be more efficient because I'm the one that's grabbing them. Right?
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Podcast Host
Right.
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Chief Siana Stallings
But so you end up that. So that to me it's like, well, if I was a lieutenant, then I could just make these changes and I wouldn't be like, you know, stonewalled in a sense.
- [25:00]
Podcast Host
Right, Yep. I agree.
- [25:02]
Chief Siana Stallings
Then you become a lieutenant and you're like, the station layout just doesn't make sense. If we just change the duties or we just did this. I think all this, the captain says no or, or says yes. Regardless of what the situation is, you start to say like, well if this captain's basically just making us do all the work and they're getting paid the captain wages, they're not really helping us with anything. They're not helping, you know, well, why don't I just become a captain? Right. So that was also kind of it that I was seeing issues that I thought that would be easy, that, that brain issues that would help significantly for the, the crews that were, you know, affected and shouldn't be that hard to implement. And I think that they're defying system wide. Right?
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Podcast Host
Absolutely.
- [25:42]
Chief Siana Stallings
But then you need to be in another seat. And then you need to be in another seat. Now the seat I'm in currently, I, our, our past chief, he left a couple years early and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm 45 at the time. I just turned 46. So I'm not even nowhere near being able to pull my pension. Right. So it's not ideal to get into an at will position when, when, when you're supposed to be go to, going toe to toe with, you know, a city and, and politicians and all of that knowing that like I really don't want to get fired. You know, my daughter has epilepsy, my husband's retired, I need health insurance. You know what I mean?
- [26:20]
Podcast Host
Absolutely.
- [26:20]
Chief Siana Stallings
But you know, when I talk to my husband about it, he goes, if you're worried about us being okay or you being fired, when you've never been fired from anything, then maybe you shouldn't take the job because and again, remember I was telling you if you're scared to do things, you just will never have the opportunity. And so ultimately, and you've probably heard me say this, if you've seen any of my interviews, that because I see this department as my family, it almost like it's. I liken it for people to understand why I did it is that it's my family business and yes, there are older cousins that are sitting in the rooms around me right now that I beg to take the job just for a few years and then I would take it after. But my didn't want that. They didn't want that for the last few years. And so it was either going to be we hire somebody from the outside that doesn't know our family business and that we just hope that they're really business savvy and they're good and we have. But we've never had an outside fire chief in the Tacoma Fire Department ever, not in any rank. So this would be my generation and as I saw it, dropping the ball for a department that was started in 1880, became paid, and we have never had an outside fire chief until potentially this.
- [27:27]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
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Chief Siana Stallings
So I wasn't prepared. I wasn't groomed. I wasn't. I've been up at headquarters for four years. So I knew about hr. I know about staffing and logistics. I know I knew operations already coming from the field, but it wasn't like this was even planned even two years ago.
- [27:43]
Podcast Host
Wow.
- [27:44]
Chief Siana Stallings
So I thought, okay, well, I'm. I'm going to. You know, there's people who have efo. They have business administration degrees. I went to school for medicine. Right. So I was like, well, if I throw my hat in and I'm the only one going into a big process that's from internal, then I can talk to you about our. I can talk to you about where we could get better, why we are in the situation we are. I can tell you about anybody that's in the field because I just was working with them. I know. I know our culture. I. You know, absolutely. I can speak on a lot of things that you can't read on our website. And so I'd be going up against a whole bunch of people from outside who've already been fire chiefs, who have lots of experience in lots of realms, but they don't know us. And I was like, I think I got about a 50, 50 chance because it's going to be me and then a whole bunch of people who are saying the exact same thing. Primarily, I ended up being interned for nine months, and we went through a budget. We lost a levy, or we failed the levy. We went through a big budget process, had to make some cuts. And so I was in front of the city manager and the council so much during that nine months that basically everybody just felt comfortable with me staying in the role. And so that's really. I didn't end up having to go through a big process with outside candidates. That's kind of how I found my way in. And ultimately I figured, look, if I throw my hat in the ring and I don't get it, at least I know that I tried to keep it in house. And I'm not saying that in house, fire chiefs or fire. Fire chiefs are the answer to everything, because they're not. I get that.
- [29:11]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [29:12]
Chief Siana Stallings
But to me, it was more about, like, our family business legacy.
- [29:16]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Chief Siana Stallings
That, like, I didn't want to be the one, and I want my generation to be the one that dropped the ball because we didn't succession plan well, enough. Yeah.
- [29:23]
Podcast Host
Everything you said right there defines leadership. What I heard was, I mean, putting yourself out there, not being afraid to fail. And you said that you may not be ready, but that.
- [29:35]
Chief Siana Stallings
What.
- [29:35]
Podcast Host
That wasn't who I always tell people, like, who is actually ready for anything. Like, there's a. There's a part of me that believes, like, if you say you're ready, there's. There's a little bit of ego behind that. Like, you're, You're. Everyone needs to be improving every single day to become what we'll call more ready. So to sit here on any given day to say, I am now ready, like, no, you're not. I mean, you're more ready hopefully today than you were yesterday, but there's still a million things that you still could be doing. So. But you talked about, like, you were putting yourself in a role that potentially you. You may not have been ready. You talked about trying to get others, others of who you saw would make great leaders or fire chiefs and organization to kind of push them. Because I think leadership, a part of it, is pushing others, too, to kind of make them step out of their comfort zone, helping others step up in roles where you believe that they would be really good at. You talked about things like keeping things in house because family. Family orientation is important. Like, you said not to say that outside fire chiefs are bad. That's not what you're saying. But what you're saying is, like, you felt like this is your family and this is, you know, keeping in house would be important. The traditions, it's in a lot of that is just. It's. It's. It's leadership. Like, you stepped out into a role, and it's not. It's not the. I mean, let's just go say the fire chief probably isn't the most desirable position in the fire service. Somebody's got to do it. I heard one of the chiefs one time said, you know, be the change that you want instead of always asking someone else to, hey, get in that role and make these changes that I want. Well, what point are you going to be the one to move that change forward? Hopefully it's good change that you want and not just changes that benefits you, you know, solo. But, you know, it's. At some point you. If you have the aspirations, the. The influence, the. The leadership capacity, if you will. Like, sometimes you just got to be the one to be that person.
- [31:19]
Chief Siana Stallings
And.
- [31:19]
Podcast Host
And then, you know, hopefully you use it for. For. For good things. And so I'll ask this question, Chief, if. If to see where you would you go with when you went to an administrative role. We'll say, whether it be the fire chief or another day ship position before, I'm sure it was scary at first. Like, I don't know if I want to go to day shift. I don't know if I want to be an interim chief. I don't want to be assistant chief, fire chief. But now fast forward. I mean, I'm just going to say it. It's not like you're like, oh man, I wish I can go back to being a paramedic now. Right now you probably love your decision and you enjoy what you're doing every day. So I, I guess where I'm going with that is rarely do we see individuals that step up in this position and they're like, oh, you know what? Bad decision. It's like oftentimes it's the best decision they ever made. But we can't. We need to get ourselves there sometimes. Right.
- [32:06]
Chief Siana Stallings
Well, and I think that anybody who's not, who's listening, that has not worked in like a day spot. You have to really. It's a hard dynamic to kind of move into because you're used to getting toned out. You get to a problem, you fix it. You sign the papers or transport and now you're on to the next problem. And it's like, problem solved, problem solved. Once you get today's the bureaucracy, at least in a city, for anything to get done, if you think it should take six months, make it about 18 months. And if you can, because it took me when I came up as medical services officer, I felt like I was banging my head against the wall almost constantly. And I was like, why is it so hard to get simple things done right? Because I'm dealing with city, legal, city hr, getting approval from the city manager who wants to talk to the mayor. Things. Right. Just different things. A bureaucracy. And I finally, it kind of clicked probably two years in that I was like, I'm setting expectations that I'm not going to be able to meet. And then I'm frustrated because I'm not meeting those expectations. I think I should be able to get this across in four months. Now it's been a year and I'm pissed because why is it taking so long? So I realized that like I can't look at problems on day shift or in like administrative problems like you do as a house fire or as a cardiac arrest or something to that effect. You. It's going to take time and, and a lot of it sometimes is if you even know that you're going to be making this ask. It's all the lead up of all the relationships you start to build with different people who are going to be involved and you start saying, hey, I'm thinking about this, this idea about this, and maybe we would merge this or that and getting people's feedback. Well, I don't know if that would work and blah, blah, blah. But if it did, what. And, and then. So laying the groundwork so when you almost are to a place where you think you can do it, everybody's heard it, they've already weighed in, you've tweaked it. So a lot of people already have buy in on the idea. Now it's just getting it over the finish line. And so again, like I said, anybody who comes up here, I try to tell them the mindset because you're not going to be successful. And you will absolutely hate it because you go from, I loved clocking in and clocking out, clock in, run a whole bunch of calls, clock out. And then I'm on to my, you know, my days off here. I think about the fire department all the time, almost 24 7. And sometimes I get home and we try to watch a movie and I'm. Something reminds me of work and I'm like, oh, I forgot to tell you about this. That happened today. And my husband's like, can we please just not talk about work tonight? Because he's a firefighter, he retired here, so he knows the players, he knows the dynamics, he knows the history, and so he's a really good sounding board. But also he's my husband and he doesn't want to talk about my work all day long. So you have to know that you're signing up for that because that's. And if you can do that mindset and know that the trajectory is just going to take a little bit longer and if it's quicker. Awesome.
- [35:01]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [35:02]
Chief Siana Stallings
Then you're not going to be frustrated and depressed. Yeah.
- [35:07]
Podcast Host
About, you know, I do, I do. I mean, managing the expectations. I did day shift assignment two different times, three years in total. But. But there is such a huge difference, like what you're saying, like, right in the, in the field, we're wired to be reactive to everything. Run the call, come back, we're done. Oh, run the call. On day shift, you're. You're proactive. Right. You're setting plans, logistical things, training. And so it's a very different mindset, but managing of those expectations, otherwise you're setting yourself up for success and not failure. But I like how you said what you had said. I heard you say it in one of your interviews, but you said it here, too, is if you think something's going to take, you said six months, like, it's going to be a little bit longer than that. Right. If you think it's going to be a year, plan on two years. And so it's important to understand that. But it's what's also, I believe, is so important to. That is for a leader in the fire service, we'll say who has that perspective, if you will. Because if you never have the perspective of what you said, you never put in a position to say, go to day shift and understand the dichotomy of things that you can take care of on shift versus things that you can or cannot take care of on days. You don't have that perspective. You don't have that. That respect, if you will, for those roles or for those individuals that are in those roles. But. And as you know, Chief, like, as firefighters, we. We have our own opinions. Oh, why did headquarters do that? I can't believe the training division is doing this. It's like, well, when you sit on your side and now coming back, it's like, I actually do understand why they do those things. Right. Yeah.
- [36:28]
Chief Siana Stallings
Well. And when you're. When the ultimate goal is serving the field crews and they need something done, and it's taking you eight months to. To. To, like, I just got something across that Mike. That has taken like two months or, I mean, two years plus to really try to get. And by the time that comes, there's not like a. Yeah, it's just like.
- [36:48]
Podcast Host
I know.
- [36:49]
Chief Siana Stallings
It's just a check. Right. And so not only does everything take longer, the winds, be it. Your. The wind is completely out of your sail by the time the wind hits. And you're just like, all right, on to the next thing. Right. Because there's just all of these things.
- [37:01]
Podcast Host
That are just agreed. Oh, totally agree. Putting together, like a taskbook will say, you know, that had 14 different department or players at the table. You're working so hard to get through this. And when it finally gets done, not only do you not have appreciation from the crews, they hate it on top of it. Like, oh, but no, I totally. I mean, I'm only half kidding, but I totally see what you're saying as we talk about, you know, young leaders in the fire service being a leadership podcast. If you were to say one thing for young leaders, start doing this today. Yeah. And you will grow to be a phenomenal leader in the fire service. But just one thing to start working on today. What would that be?
- [37:38]
Chief Siana Stallings
You know, I think that like, you don't. Some of the people that I've admired the most on this job were not informal leadership positions. They were amazing mentors and engineers that, that were, were excited to teach and, and were amazing at knowing everything of their craft. Right. And so regardless of what position you're sitting in at any given time, coming to work and being purposeful about how you show up, being the third that you would want, you know, to be working with, you want to be, you know, the driver that you would want to be relying on if you were going in on a hose line, the officer that you would want to work for. And coming in knowing that pessimism and optimism are contagious. So you come in every day and you're, you're, you're presenting yourself as something and you can bring down the morale of your crew or you can lift it up by very, very simple things. Right. And so coming in, trying to be, trying to be positive about like what are we going to learn today or what are we going to do today? And leadership is purposeful. So when I, when I talk to new lieutenants and new captains and I tell them, I go, think of somebody that you admire that has the role that you are either sitting in right now or that you are, you're aspiring to be in now. When I came on the people that I like, I was like, whoa, they're bigger than life. They were huge command control people. And I was, man, I just, I don't think I can ever be leadership in this position or in this department because there's no way that I could do that. They're just so good at it, you know, they're just so scary, you know.
- [39:09]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [39:10]
Chief Siana Stallings
And, and like quick witted and like really like, you know, like feels like they're about to make people cry sometimes. And I just was like, man, I just, I don't think, I think I'll just be a, you know, standard, the radar and be a really good soldier and really can never be in leadership. But what I tell people is take that person and then write down some values that they have because that, that, that's what you like about them and then say how do I portray those values in my everyday. So maybe it's that they're respectful, maybe it's that they're extremely capable of in, in their roles. Maybe you know, name the thing for the person that you admire and then make that your own. Say, how can I maybe, maybe like, I really like that you can lean on them because you know that they're well read. Maybe then you start reading a little bit more. You do, you know, you start, yeah, be your own. Like you don't, don't try to be somebody else. Try to be the best leader you can be and the best firefighter and the best officer that you can be. And that's all you can do. Yeah. And if you are coming every day authentically yourself, trying to be the best that you can, people are going to see that and they're going to respect that, they're going to admire your integrity and that ultimately when you get into an actual formal leadership role, all those relationships that you have built and all the trust and that you have built with people, they're not going to forget about it. You know, anybody who knows me from my recruit, like recruit class knows I'm exactly the same person that I have always been. Yes. Now some decisions are a little more heavy in this seat than they are necessarily. But really very few of my decisions that I make on a day to day is someone's life waning. And I know crews that are around me that are driving around constantly that are making those types of decisions. So it's different. I make decisions that could have a negative impact on morale or positive impact on morale. Right. And so those are the things that I'm constantly thinking about in the decisions I'm making day to day. Not that they're any more important than the decisions that the crews are making every day.
- [41:13]
Podcast Host
Just different, just from a different scene. Yeah. I mean, you said something so key, authentic and then something also very, very important for leaders, or not just leaders, but the listeners here to, to understand is. Yeah, you said pessimism and optimism are so contagious. I mean, how true is that? There's. I read Trevor Mawad, he was the, the sports psychologist. He worked with, you know, Nick Saban and his team with the Clemson University, worked in the NFL, worked at Russell Wilson even. And he said that negativity as he researched it. And I'm sure you probably know negativity is so much more powerful than positivity. And so just to know that like if you go to the firehouse and you say a couple negative things and you also say a couple positive things, the things that are going to stick in people's minds, what they're going to remember and also share when they go out to other stations or go home or whatever are those negative Things because they're so much more powerful in the human mind. So we have to be. We have to understand that when we talk about controlling the morale. Because, you know, you've heard it, Chief, like the company officers and the crews are the ones responsible for morale of the organization, not the fire chief. Like the fire chief, you know. Yes. But individually, it's like we need to control that.
- [42:19]
Chief Siana Stallings
So one, I'll add that any leader, there's a certain amount of power that you hold. So I hold the power of my position as a fire chief. I can discipline people, you know, discipline power or reward power. I can give rewards for doing great things. But the two that I think are the most are respect. So you think about, like, the best leaders, and they were so well respected for whatever reason. Second, to me is expert people who are just amazing at their job. And a lot of times, the people you respect and are good at their job, those are the people that just have the admiration and ultimately, I would say more power than even somebody sitting in a chief role because they have so much influence. Because people want. And you're not a leader if no one wants to follow you. Right. And these people are. And again, sometimes they're those informal leaders that are just everybody respects and everybody thinks is just so solid that I want to be like that. Right.
- [43:15]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [43:16]
Chief Siana Stallings
And so just knowing that, like, just climbing the ranks and not doing the work of actually building relationships and trust and leading by example, you're kind of cutting your legs out from under you, and you can rebuild that when you get into a new role, you know, you can be like, oh, they're a lot different. Better than they had been as a firefighter or whatever.
- [43:33]
Podcast Host
Right? Absolutely. Yeah.
- [43:34]
Chief Siana Stallings
But I do remember people working for people on my way up the chain that, like, you know, would say, like, be professional. Look, you know, this and that. But then I'm on a call with them at 3am and they're being like, berating like, an elderly person for calling. Right. I'm like, what, What? What? What's professional about that? Right. And so to me, if you're not. If you're like, walk the talk, basically.
- [43:56]
Podcast Host
Yeah, absolutely. Walk the talk. Be authentic and treat other people. And that's. Yeah, we hear this all the time. Treat people the way you'd like to be treated. But how about treat people the way that they would like to be treated? Because nowadays it's like, you know, sometimes I'll allow someone to make fun of me or disrespect me because it's all fun. And games. But that doesn't mean I allow, that doesn't mean I should not allow others to be treating them that way because you know, so I like to ask this question, Chief, before we wind down here, if there was one new policy you can create, implement one new program, one new best practice, what would it be and why?
- [44:34]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah, so I mean we have lots of needs. Lots and lots and lots of needs. And so I was like when you, when you sent this question, I was like, oh man, I was like, oh, I'm going to do this. But the thing that I think that I would 100% go all in especially if there was no financial, you know, roadblocks would be a wellness initiative. I know my, when my uncle worked at Contra Costa, I don't know exactly how built out their program was, but they had PTS on staff, they had a mental health professional on staff. We have a medical advisor having a medical director or you know, I mean somebody who's more full time having a potentially an off site gym where all of these things were located that anybody at any time can go in and talk to somebody right now that's there. Currently we are working towards that. I don't know if you ever saw the call we carry that.
- [45:23]
Podcast Host
I have, yes, I have created.
- [45:25]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah. And so coming off of that we do have two mental health providers that, that are basically part time employees and that has been kind of really huge for us because when somebody is at a place where they're trying to talk to somebody and you get like the EAP or you know, assistance program and they say okay, somebody's going to meet with you, they have an opening in two weeks. You don't need them in two weeks, you need them right now. And so that's what it's created us that them at least being able to talk to somebody when they need to and, and then kind of decompress a little bit or diffuse and then, then continue with whoever that they want. The other thing is that we've kind of bolstered. You know, we're always trying to tweak our peer support team within again our budget but that we just picked up Peer Connect app, which a lot of people probably already have. But when you're building out a peer support team and there's only so many people, it's always better if I'm having a bad day for somebody that I respect or know to be the one that calls me and says how are you doing? Versus somebody that just joined the team that's been on two years right you're going to be doing a better service to the people that we're that. And so with that peer. Peer support Connect. Wait, Peer connect support app, you basically can say, here's. Here are the people that I trust on the peer support team. And then if I either say, I need help, please help me, or if somebody says Sian is not acting. Is just not acting normal, we're worried about her. She's calling out sick a lot. She doesn't. She just doesn't seem like she's in a good place. Can we reach out to her? Yeah, it would be one of those people who did that. Right. And so we are doing our best to try to like, nickel and dime, getting it better. But if I had a magic wand, I would want a full. We don't even do annual physicals because we, we, we. And so those are the types of things that would be part of it, part of that whole package.
- [47:15]
Podcast Host
Yeah. So let me ask this question. It's. It's rhetorical, but obviously I want to see what would. What will become of it. So let's just say organizations across the country, obviously Tacoma and others, had a very robust peer support teams in any fashion and avenues that we can build upon that we have providers on staff, whether it be medical providers, physical providers on staff, part time, full time, on site or nearby to get the assistance immediately, like you said, not two weeks from now. Because when people are in crisis, well, the word crisis says it's now and not two weeks from now. What would be the end result if we were able to implement those things today?
- [47:54]
Chief Siana Stallings
You know, I think that if you could build it where it didn't feel too big, like that you were just a number and that there, each department had, you know, like a stake in the, in the game where they had people that were actually working as part of that and helping. You know, I think. I think that it would be a lot cheaper to provide and that we would have providers that knew our work and knew what firefighters see, what they go through, because you can talk to anyone. But when, when. When it's people who are familiar with working with, you know, first responders, they just understand. Understand this a little bit differently. And so ultimately, I don't think. I think it would be a good idea. The one thing that I do know is that we contract with the mental health providers, but I. They don't work for me. And I know that in certain, in certain instances when it appears that doctors and, you know, they're. They work directly for the chief, if there's any lack of trust between that relationship, then people will not go. And so that would be. That would be my. One thing is it would have to be probably more from a labor. Labor side where they knew that this is. We, we want you to utilize these resources because your injuries may go down or your, you know, your mental health might, you know, increase, you know, or. But we would want people to utilize them. And so that would be. Those are the things that I would think that come off. Come off the top of my head of other workforce areas where they haven't been utilized because of those reasons.
- [49:24]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. Totally agree. And I think it's the benefits. It kind of goes without saying. Right. Your employees would be healthier physically, mentally, emotionally, behaviorally. They'll be coming back to shift due to any. Any type of injury faster, improved morale, made of people, more enjoyment. So it just goes without saying. I was. Had an individual on the show. She's a nutritionist. She came from Fairfax in Virginia. Huge department, like 1500 people. And I think they had. They. They did police and fire, so it was like 3, 000 people. Fourth. That was huge. But they had, they had nutritionists on staff, but they had physics. Yeah, they had. So it's. It's there. Departments do it. And so it's not. No one's inventing or reinventing the wheel. It's out there. It's. That's about the people. That's about the. Yeah. So servant leadership. It's going back to that.
- [50:14]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah. Well. And you know, I'm looking, you know, I'm looking at my retirement, right. And I'm looking at people who are getting injured very young. And my husband, he retired early because he was in an incident on, like, years and years ago and ended up getting his neck fused. And so it wasn't really. Didn't go well to continue to wear a pack or have a helmet on. And so he retired. But I would like a workforce that likes coming to work, that is healthy when they are here and they're healthy when they retire so that they can enjoy the second chapter.
- [50:43]
Podcast Host
Exactly.
- [50:44]
Chief Siana Stallings
And be healthier. Yeah.
- [50:45]
Podcast Host
30 years on the job and about 30 plus years when they leave the job.
- [50:49]
Chief Siana Stallings
Exactly. That's the, that's the. That's the idea, right?
- [50:51]
Podcast Host
Yeah, absolutely. All right, as we wind down, Chief, a book, a class, an article, maybe, what are some of your favorite readings? That maybe the, the group can just say, you know what? I'm gonna grab that.
- [51:02]
Chief Siana Stallings
I was thinking back on, like, servant leadership. And although it's not a. A New book. I think it's from, like, 2019. It's a book that I just really resonated with me. Yeah. It's called the Future of Leadership. Elevate your influence. Navigate disruption and bring out their. Bring out their best. And basically what it talks about is that the old, you know, you can say fire service, but just in general industry was a hierarchy, and the people at the top knew the information, and so you had power because no one else knew the information. But now it's a network. Basically, we've moved to a network where anybody can find the information anywhere. And so what our workforce now, they don't want. They want to feel, you know, what they're asking for from their employer is different. And. And that you have to know that mindset. But again, a lot of the things that people are looking for now is exactly, you know, and maybe they were always looking for them, but you just weren't really allowed to ask for them.
- [51:59]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [52:00]
Chief Siana Stallings
Is to be cared about.
- [52:01]
Podcast Host
Yes.
- [52:01]
Chief Siana Stallings
To be taken care of, you know, to. To be brought in so that, you know, things are transparent, to be communicated with, you know, things like that.
- [52:11]
Podcast Host
Absolutely.
- [52:11]
Chief Siana Stallings
So I remember thinking, like, that's actually servant leadership.
- [52:14]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [52:15]
Chief Siana Stallings
You know, it. Because it's. Basically, it's based on what the need is now. But really, I. I think, you know, when they do studies on, you know, different football teams in the past, yelling at people when they mess up isn't necessarily the best way to get the best out of the. You know what I mean? And, like, people who are. Have a better culture of, like, let's all get together. Let's all, you know, build ownership of the team, of the department, of our success and of our future. And if you want to be part of it, then let's all build the department that we want. I want to build a department that you are going to be happy for me to pass on to you in a blink of an eye, that you are going to then be in one of these seats and you are going to be fostering into the next generation and passing off. Right. And that's the kind of concept that. That, you know, I really liked about this book.
- [53:07]
Podcast Host
Yeah, no, that's. Who's the author of that book, if I can.
- [53:10]
Chief Siana Stallings
It is Josh Metcalf and Seth Madison.
- [53:13]
Podcast Host
Okay, perfect. Okay. Leadership challenge. Chief. So we're here today because Jamie Formazano kindly asked us to reach out to you to be a future guest. So if there was someone out there, fire service or not, that you were to challenge to say, you know, what this person would have a great message to add. Do you have someone you'd like to challenge?
- [53:33]
Chief Siana Stallings
You know, I do, and it's actually assistant chief that just was voted in as the new or. He's going to be taking over as the West Pierce Fire Chief. West Pierce Fire and Rescue Fire Chief. Name is Ryan McGrady. When I first came up five years ago, you know, beginning of 2020, he was assistant chief of EMS for West Pierce, and I was an MSO at that time. So we were in a lot of meetings together trying to figure out how we all are going to get PPE and what opportunities, operational changes we're going to be making and all of those things. Great guy, great leader. And then they became a. Or West Pierce was begin. Became part of a training consortium.
- [54:15]
Podcast Host
That's right.
- [54:15]
Chief Siana Stallings
So I haven't seen him in like three years, and I really didn't even see him in person all that much because of the pandemic and separation and all that. And so I've only seen him a few times. And so I was really. I'm really happy for him that his. His chief. I think there was three internal candidates, which is amazing. Right. They're doing something right if there's that amount of people interested in it and that he is the one that the commissioners voted on. So he will be stepping in, I think, the beginning of the year. And so I'd like him to start off with the ground on the. You know, maybe even catch him before he's actually in the seat.
- [54:49]
Podcast Host
There you go. I will. So Chief Ryan McGrady with West Pierce fire.
- [54:52]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yes.
- [54:53]
Podcast Host
I'll reach out to him and let him know he was challenged by Fire Chief Siana and see if you'd be willing to take up the. The challenge.
- [55:02]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yes.
- [55:02]
Podcast Host
All right. So before we close, I do want to say thank you for giving up an hour of your time to share the wonderful message on servant leadership and everything that we talked about today. But before we close, lasting leadership thoughts you'd like the listeners to walk away with today?
- [55:18]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah, I would say number one. One. One quote that we. That I heard from a mentor of mine was that if servanthood is below you, then leadership is beyond you. And so I, I think that about that a lot, that that concept and also that the fire service has a lot of traditions and history. And so it's very easy to say, but we've always done it this way, this way works. We like it like this. We don't want change, but change is really the only true thing that, that you can rely on. And so it's not a bad idea to start looking at trends. And I. I don't think it's that long until firefighters are. Are flying a lot more drones to. For. For recon, potentially with even, like, suppression capabilities. And so. You know what I mean?
- [56:10]
Podcast Host
Like, absolutely.
- [56:12]
Chief Siana Stallings
With the technology moving as fast as it is, don't be afraid of it. Lean into it.
- [56:17]
Podcast Host
Lean into it. Oh, I mean, lean into it. Change is happening. I love how you said that change is the only thing that. What did you say? Is the only thing guaranteed that you.
- [56:25]
Chief Siana Stallings
Can really rely on.
- [56:25]
Podcast Host
That you can rely on. That's true. I mean, change will always be there. And then without change, you can't make progress.
- [56:33]
Chief Siana Stallings
Yeah.
- [56:34]
Podcast Host
Thank you, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable, and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.