← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 90: Randy Chevalier, Fire Chief - Leading thru Crisis
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When I think about trying to lead through crisis, you can't lead through it alone. You. You have to have a good team. And I'm proud of the team we have here at Timber Mesa. We got some strong leaders all the way through all the different ranks and do some amazing things. But I think it goes a little bit deeper than that. Right. You can't make decisions in a vacuum in your own organizations, and you have to have a solid team outside your organization. And that's where that mentorship really comes into play. Rescued from a three story apartment building, the First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast.
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Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe.
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From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to.
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CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders. Leaders. All right, well, this is episode 90 of the Kitchen Table, and today we have Randy Chevalier of Timber Mesa Fire and Medical District in Arizona. Randy is the fire chief of Timber Mesa Fire Medical District. He began his career in 1996 with the show Low Fire District. Randy, along with 23 other firefighters, organized the White Mountain Firefighters, eventually creating the White Mountain Firefighter Association Local 4217, where Randy served as the first president of the local. Randy is currently the vice president for the Arizona Fire Chiefs association, president of the Northeastern Arizona Fire Chiefs association, liaison trainee for the White mountain zone type 3 incident management team, and served on the Arizona Department of Insurance and Financial Institute's Resiliency and Mitigation Council, and most recently appointed to the Arizona Fire Insurance Review Task Force. Good morning, Chief. Thanks for joining the show.
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How are you? I'm good. Hey, good morning and thank you for having me on the show.
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Absolutely. Well, it's. We've got to thank Jake Rhodes from Buckeye Arizona, who, Who did the challenge. And as I'm learning this morning, he was out of Buckeye, which is a very different climate than out there in. In your neck of the woods up in the northeastern part of the state.
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Yes, yes, it is.
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Learning there's a little. A little different to climate between Phoenix and where you're at quite a bit.
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You know, we were kind of joking earlier. You see those memes all across social media. Says, says I'm from Arizona, has that saguaro cactus. But my, my part, Arizona has ponderosa pine trees and. And snow.
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That's interesting.
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A little bit different than the Buckeye area.
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Yeah. Do you. So in your area, is there cactus or.
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No, there's. There's cactus.
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There is. Okay.
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But not, not those big saguaro cactuses. Those majestic, beautiful looking cactus. Yeah, our cactus is more of a scrub type.
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Yeah.
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Cactus.
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Yeah, they're different. Different. So, yes, I'm learning a little, a little more about the state than I've, than I've known. Well, again, thank you for being on the show today. And today's conversation going to be framed around leading through crisis and leading through changes. Because you faced it, Chief. You've lived it. I mean, I understand that Timber Mesa experienced three firefighter line of duty deaths last year. As you mentioned, the department also has, has faced some extreme financial challenges, including some theft. And we'll dive into that as well. Before we get going. Would you mind sharing a little bit about Randy Chevalier before we start talking leadership?
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A
Absolutely. And again, thank you so much for having me on, on this episode. And, and I suppose I should give thanks to Chief Rhodes, although I'll thank him for that a little bit later on down the road. I see a little bit of clarification. So in Arizona, we have had the Arizona Fire Chiefs association and the Arizona Fire Districts Association. I actually serve as a vice president for the Districts Association. We work in concert together all the time. Good partnership and we just have some awesome leaders and some awesome partners all across the state. State. But, but me myself Show Low area, the White Mountain area. It's, it's my home which is, it's about three and a half hours from the Phoenix metro area. And then of course, Phoenix is the, is the biggest place in, in the state. And we're down there quite often. Right. But Sholo's more of that, that kind of that tourist place up the mountain 6,500ft. And, and I was born down in the Phoenix metro area, but lived here.
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Okay.
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This is home. This is, this is where I raised my family and, and all my kids went to show Low High school as well. And, and this, this, this is, this is where we're at. My wife Cassie, she, she works here locally as well. We have one local hospital in town and she's a, she's a manager at the hospital over a couple different clinics. And, and several of my kids still in town. But, but I, but I love this place. This is, this is a beautiful place in the neck of the woods. And, and of course I love the Arizona Fire Service, but yeah, this is. So we have four kids and more importantly, I have two grandkids. Nice grandchild just December 30th this last year. Congrats, Cassie. And I sole focus right now is all things grandkids.
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Awesome. That's great. To hear. I will say this, Chief, now that we're back in Arizona today on the show, I think I joked around with Jake, but also every time we have a guest from Arizona is there's a battle between, it seems like Arizona and Florida and maybe, maybe Washington, ironically, that the most guests on this show come from Arizona. So. Yeah.
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So fantastic. Yeah.
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So it's, I joke, but I guess not, not necessarily joke that the fire service or Arizona itself breeds a lot of great leaders. And so it's great that we have another Arizona member here to offer a perspective on the show. So thank you again for being here.
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Absolutely. And yeah, we were. We have a good group of people in Arizona. I tell you about the leadership pool and we'll speak more about that when we start talking about some of the line of duty desk. But I have no loss of appreciation for every single member of the fire service across Arizona and across the United States in general. But the leadership corps really rally around me a lot here recently. And, and we got amazing group of people in this state. So I'm very proud of that.
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B
That's, that's, that's great to hear. As we talk leadership and the conversation we're going to have today, I want to start with, you know, leadership can be, and I don't say this too lightly, but it can be easy, easier. We'll say when things are all unwell, you know, when things are going well, there's no problems. There's no, we'll say financial challenges and everything's going great. But I would say, and let me know if you agree with this, that the strongest of leaders are shaped by the challenges and the adversities that they face. Right. And so particularly during times of crisis, and that's kind of what we're going to talk about today. So you face some of the most challenges, difficult challenges I imagine that any fire chief or any leader in the fire service could ever face. Right. We talked about line of duty deaths and we're going to dive a little bit about the extreme challenges that you went through financially in your organization, leading through crisis and what that's like and how that kind of shapes leaders.
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Absolutely. And, and I like the way you kind of frame that. Right. It's leadership. Leadership is certainly not easy. Right. But, but when things are going well and you have good practices and good policies and, and good cultures, and I think that's the, that's the key to a lot of it. It's just having a good culture within your organization or, you know, your collective areas that you're kind of working within is critical, critical to that. And, and when you have those good things, leadership can be quite easy and it can be very fun and exciting and, and you know, adventurous in so many different areas. But crisis definitely shapes we, we all know and I think we can all have that appreciation. We learn best when we, when we make mistakes and some of those failure points and, and all those things that kind of exist, I help shapes us. But, but you really, you can't see some of those things. You don't know what you don't know until you kind of face some of those challenges that exist out there. So yeah, you can get a trial by fire and so many things quickly through, through crisis. And when you're trying to lead through crisis, sometimes there's no solid playbook. But, but there's a lot of lessons out there all across the nation that we can kind of glean from and it's important to have those conversations and after actions to, to make sure. Right. Because even during the cris, mistakes can get made. You don't want. But, but sometimes you're not thinking the clearest during those time frames. And, and so I know for me personally, when I think about trying to lead through crisis, you can't lead through it alone. You have to have a good team. And I'm proud of the team we have here at Timber Mesa. We got some strong leaders all the way through all the different ranks and do some amazing things. But I think it goes a little bit deeper than that. Right. You can't make decisions in a vacuum in your own organizations. And you have to have a solid team outside your organization. And that's where that mentorship really comes into play. Jake Rhodes, for example, with a lot of the stuff with this line of duty death that we went through, he was one of the mentors that I called upon multiple times to kind of lean on and gain that perspective. Right. So don't solely focus just in on yourself. And even though you have a good team internally, think about those mentors that you have all the way around you because there's some good people and, and you never know. They could have had some experiences somewhere along the way that's similar that can really help you and bolster you and get your line of thought process back in line to where you need to be. So, so don't, don't go about a crisis alone. That's. Yeah, that's going to get bad for you.
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Yeah. So you said something very important, I'd say, because Chief Rhodes talked about this too, as we talked about leadership in Arizona, he talked about. Because when he was on the show, he actually just came back from what I believe was a battalion chief training. And then he came back from like another chiefs conference, but it was a state conference, if you will. These were, there were trainings that brought in town chiefs and I think upcoming battalion chiefs from all around the state. It was like 50 or 60 some time. She's. Because as you mentioned, you know, building teams outside your organization. Can you speak on that? Because I think a lot of fire service leaders, especially young ones, will say, whether it be firefighter, company officer, we are very focused, if you will, on building our teams and our relationships and those that work here within organizations. But you do see when you get to the chief officer level or even fire chiefs, their teams are people outside the organization. But speak on the importance of building teams inside and outside your organization, no matter what rank you're at in the fire service.
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Oh, it's crucial. You know, we in the fire service and I don't think we're alone in this. I think there's other business models that kind of do the same thing as us. Right. But sometimes we get only caught up into ourselves. Right. And, and you can take the solo area, the Timber Mesa area. I mean, we're, we're three and a half hours removed from that Phoenix metro area and there's, there's a whole bunch of fire departments and districts down in that metro area and they do good stuff. And some of it could apply to us and some of it might not. But, but you won't know what else is out there until you extend that, that your networking. Right. And, and that's something we do and we take certain pride on in this state. As Chief Rhodes discussed, some of the programs that he's talking about is, is a regional or not regional, but statewide battalion chief academies. And we have those up and coming or even current sitting beast battalion chiefs going and sitting in those class conversations to collective, talking about those challenges that are going on and trying to, trying to reel in some of those things that they can do more alike that way. The system's kind of the same across the board and I think that's a huge factor and I'll touch on a little bit here in a minute. But, but, but even on that collective scale, right. We're, we're a small group of people and so there's so many resources available to. You got to be willing to go outside your own little network and see what else is going on there. And this state has some powerful resources, but even beyond that, I mean that I've got some good friends and good chief officers and firefighters in other states that we'll just rely on, you know, and we, we talk about, we live on 6, 500 foot and we get snow here. And I remember reaching out to a couple good buddies of mine up in Colorado. They deal a lot more snow than we do. But, but you know, we're thinking about spec in a 4x4 engine and they had a lot more research on that than what we did. And so, so be able to build that relationship when and where you can. It's, it's critical and also keeps you in check right when you're starting to think maybe outside the box, which is good, but maybe you're getting too far outside that box and go, go run some of that past some of your good friends, your mentors that are willing to be truthful with you. Like that's probably not a great idea. But yeah, yeah, I want to refocus, focus your thoughts there. But they'll be willing to do that and get involved. We preach that so many which ways. Go get involved where you can. If that starts locally at a coaching level, but, but go serve on a board and, or a state statewide network, whatever it is, because we're all in this, this profession together and we got good resources and a collective mind is better than my mind for sure.
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Okay, I have a, I have a quick question here, Chief, regarding leadership across the state and bringing people together because I touched a little bit on this with. Chief Rhodes is obviously in the fire service. There's, there's some, there's some ego involved sometimes, you know, firefighters and, and you don't see very often that there is statewide for regional training, if you will. You know, sometimes you'll see training regionally but with, with partner agencies, you know, neighboring agencies, but to grab people from all across the state. And we'll just say 10, 20, 30 different fire departments to do like a battalion chief academy or even like a company officer academy or a fire chief's academy. We don't see that. In fact, when I was talking to Chief Rhodes about this, I mean, it seemed like to me, and I don't know, you know, all 50 states, but Arizona was doing something that not many other states were. I'm just imagining, you know, a 50, 60, 70 seat course with bringing a single rank from 40 fire departments together to do regional training. I mean that's pretty humbling, but inspiring I guess as well. And it goes to the relationship building and it goes to the, the, the, the, the network that you're talking about. So why is it, or how is it that Arizona is able to have something so important or critical?
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You know, I, I think in that Battalion Chief academy speaks volumes to it. So we have a few different layers involved in that. The BC Academy is one. And then you, you have a couple more layers. We have in Arizona, we have the statewide, there's a statewide training committee and, and they host a, an annual fire school for, for the state of Arizona. And it dates back to, to the early 70s after the big bloody crisis that took place in Kingman, Arizona. And it killed several firefighters there in Kingman. And it became relevant to the state that we, we need to do better. We, we need to get more training. And that was really the start of the re. Regionalization of a lot of different courses from pumping operations to calculations, hydraulic calculations, to leadership. And, and, and over the years, you know, since 1973, it's really grown a lot and now we have like a B.C. academy. But in addition to that, at the, at the Arizona State Fire School, we have the new Chief seminar. And, and the focus of that New Chief seminar is when you hit that new rank of a fire chief or up and coming to it, we kind of want to get our hands on you, right? They wanted to get their hands on me when I became that, that new guy because we, we don't, we want to keep people between, between the white lines. Of course everybody's going to be a little bit different and everybody's going to have their needs and, and the Phoenix Metro system, the Tucson system, much larger than ours. But, but it's important to make sure we're doing the right things because we don't want those headlines coming across of Fire Chief X did whatever. And it's going to cause us all problems, right? And so we really focus in on trying to bring those, and this, those, those leaders themselves can see the value in it and get the value and that starts that networking. And now they're working together and then we have that next layer of the Chief Executive officer program. And I think we're getting ready to go into the sixth cohort of that program. And it's the same thing bringing the fire chiefs, bringing up and coming people that probably want to think about being a fire chief into the room. There's a course in February, it's two weeks, one in February, one in October with kind of an in between during one of the conferences. And it's just bringing those collective minds together. And I think what makes it successful is we can all see the value in it. We all got something out of it and getting the people. More people involved and either help coordinating it or coming back and teaching. I'm going to go back for my third year this year and I do a little presentation on financial crisis and we'll talk about that today in a little bit.
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Absolutely.
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But it's a, It's a story and it's a, It's a story that needs to get shared so other people can hear it. And also that resonates and somebody feels like they have something to offer. And so now you have this collective group of leaders that want to give back, and we're all feeling like we're getting something out of it. That's what makes it work.
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Yeah, it's. I mean, it sounds like it, it's just a collective common thought, if you will. Same. Same common mission, if you will, to. For everyone to get better, regardless of where you come from or what, where you're, where you're at. So here's a question that I ask, and it's only half joking, but how is it, how do other organizations outside of Arizona get involved in something like this?
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I think we'd be open to that.
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Yeah.
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I think because we've had instructors from different parts of the nation coming in and teach and they've, they've said that like, we, we need to get some guys into this, into this program. What's crazy is, is like that CEOP program is what it's called, Chief Executive Officer Program. I think there's 40 seats available this year and instantly it gets filled, I'm sure. So then becomes one of those manageable things.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But at some point in time, just like with this podcast, I think it's going to have to grow because at some point we'll probably, probably hit most of those leaders and it might get a little bit stagnant. So trying to bring in maybe our surrounding states a little bit. Yeah, anything's possible.
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Yeah, anything is possible. You're absolutely right. I look forward to the, to not just the day, but the time where, you know, we talk about such a robust program that you guys have there in the state of Arizona. What happens when other states catch on, let alone it turns into multi state, you know, and you know what that looks like. So I look forward to that.
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So we need to have a program in it for how to do podcasts. Well, there you go.
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There you go. Yeah. Heck yeah. I mean, and then it'll really, you Know, voice will get out and then it'll grow. Yeah. You can do virtual academies, you could do hybrid academies. You could do obviously in person academies. You could do moving, you know, states. Arizona's hosting this one, Colorado's hosting the next, you know, California or Oregon or, you know, but yeah, you're right. Anything is possible. Yeah.
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Together. Why not?
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Yeah, absolutely. The next point that I want to go with is you, you as fire chief experienced something that no department would ever want to face. You experienced some lighting duty deaths in your organization. And talk about leading through challenges in crisis. I can't think of another challenge or instance that is more challenging than what you faced. So would you mind sharing a little bit about that and the story? But also we'll dive into what we can do to learn from stories because I believe, you know, one of the traditions of the fire service is obviously learning from the experiences of others, not just those around you, but throughout the American fire service and globally as well. Would you mind diving into a little bit about your experience with what took place last year?
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Yeah, absolutely. And it's a tough topic and, and I've been, we're trying to talk as much as I can about it because, because it's important. We, we don't want to, we don't want to lose sight of any of those lessons learned that we can learn. And we don't want to have Brenna, Damon and Glenn's names forgotten either. We, and we really preach that in the fire service. And, and I, and I truly believe that. But last year changed our lives, their family's lives, the lives of this whole entire state for forever. And that impact, it's not done yet. Right. There's still ongoing issues, so, still ongoing challenges. But on September 14th, Brennan, Damon, good, fantastic individuals. Brenna, 31 years old, had a 10 year old daughter, recently married. Damon, 21, young kid, awesome kid. Both, both local to the area. Just doing good stuff for this organization and the fire service. And it actually worked in the fire service in a couple of locations before coming over to Timber Mesa. But they were headed home. We do what's called inter facility transports from our local hospital down to Phoenix, Tucson, Flagstaff. Our hospital, Summit is the name of our hospital. They're a good hospital and we've got good relationships with them. But we're, we're in a rural area and sometimes those services aren't provided at Summit and they got to get down to that metro area for good services and that's what they were doing. They were transporting a person down and they were returning home. It was a little after. Little after 10pm so it was dark, it was nighttime and for. For. And it's all under investigation. Right. But for whatever reason, across the car crossed over into our lane and went head on into. Into our ambulance and both, Both vehicles burst into flames. And fortunately all things appear that. That the occupants. And fortunately. Right, but all occupants died on impact is what it appears. So we, We. We were dispatched to that call. It was, it was actually dispatched in our location in our fire district itself, but it was actually because I think it actually came through like an Apple iPhone accident, calling it in an accident. And it didn't have that right ping through the 911 system, which is here locally the 911 system, but our dispatch system is. It was determined it was going to be at milepost 319, which was in between us and a local area called Heber Overguard. And so they are dispatched as well. Their fire chief was the first individual on scene, good friend of mine. Their units were first on scene and had to work through that horrific site. I was home when the call call kicked out. I called my battalion chief right away to like, because it came out as an ambulance and please tell me it's not our ambulance. Not that I want it to be anybody's ambulance, but please. And, and we both felt like it was. And so I went in routes and I was one of the first individuals on scene from Timber Mesa. Got on scene and went and tied in with command, which was the chief of Heber, Jason Payne, a good friend. And I just. I just cried. Right. It was, it was. The crews were working the incident and just, just a very horrific scene. And everything changed at that moment in time for us, for. For the rest of our lives, for the rest of our. Our careers. So a lot of things transpired at that point in time, but me as a fire chief, the. The scene was in good hands. The resources were coming in and so, so I left the scene with. With the thought process of I forgot got to go do the. The unfortunate business of doing family notifications and came back here to my administration. Of course, all the notifications started going out to, to the people that were necessary to notify and, and came up with our game plan and, and one of the. One of the most critical pieces that was very, very beneficial for me as, as. As we went and did those notifications. One, we had to go notify the mother and father that their son had died, but to a husband that his wife had died, but there was a chaplain from Navajo County Sheriff's Office that joined me and then a medical professional, mental health professional, excuse me, joined me as well. And I think that was crucial for me and the team that went and did the notifications to be able to kind of pre. Plan what our statements were going to be, making sure they had resources available to them and then we can debrief after each one of those notifications. And I think that's what would help keep me in the game quite a bit. And I don't mean to call it a game, it's not a game. But keep my, my mental thought process where it need to be to. To. To work through those functions.
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B
Yeah. Well, first and foremost, she. Thank you for being a little vulnerable and sharing that story. I want to clarify a little bit. I mentioned earlier three line of duty deaths. Sounds like it was two line of duty deaths, two in the ambulance. But first and foremost, prayers to you and your fire department. Prayers to obviously the families of those involved. Prayers to the, you know, fire service communities that were involved, Arizona and everybody.
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A
Thank. Thank you so much. So they're, they're ultimately ended up being a third line of duty death. Oh, there was a few weeks later, a few.
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B
Oh, so there was. Okay. The way I was understanding it when I was talking to Chief Rhodes, he had mentioned three. And then as you shared the story, the two. And so not to jump forward because I do have a question on the two, but when you say there was a third, this is not related.
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Not related to this incident.
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Not related.
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So that was, that was that incident. And we can talk through a lot of pieces with that. With that, that. Yeah. Surrounding things with that accident itself.
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Yeah.
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On October 3rd, Glenn Collins, firefighter Collins was responding. Not responding, but he was at home headed to work and on. On his path to work. He was hit and killed by. By another driver. And with, with, with our work comp pieces, we declared that a line of duty death. And. And so within less than three weeks, losing another member of the organization was pretty shattering.
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Yeah. From the standpoint of the listeners, Chief, obviously there's so much to take away. So much to first of all digest and understand and really just to recognize and realize the. Not just the challenges, but the risks that obviously the first responders take each and every day. But what is it that listeners can learn? Like what would you suggest that they take away and be able to remember it regarding how they carry themselves every day to always put themselves in a position to be a little more aware? We'll say because some things are, you have zero control over. But there's some things that we do have control over. What is it that you would suggest to listeners regarding what they can do to put themselves in best positions to be safe regarding some of what went down during these incidences?
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A
We'll say, you know, excuse me, there's a lot of, there's multiple answers to that question there. And a couple thoughts that come to my mind, right. You don't know what you don't know. And, and, and you kind of have to put yourself in that thought process of getting prepared for, for a crisis. Right. When we started the podcast, in the beginning, we talked about, you know, leadership in the beginning is, is, it's not easy, right? But, but if all things are going well, it relatively is easy. But you should always have in the back of your mind there, there could be, there could be that crisis that happens and it could be when we read those stories, you know, through Billy Goldfelder, excuse me, Billy Goldfelder, on a regular basis of all those different line of duty desks because things are unfortunate and things happen. Right. And so make sure your organizations are somewhat prepared for that from a couple different perspectives. One, and this is becoming more and more, and it's a concept that's talked about all the time in the fire service, but it's truly the mental health side because it takes an immense toll on your organization. And I know historically we struggled with good, solid employee assistant programs. We can never find that great one. They're just kind of there. But they might not understand us as a fire service because there might be tied into just business. And so recently we had made a change in our employee assistance program and I think it was really timely and we had resources available to our members and to the families quickly. And so make sure, double check those things, dig into those things. Don't let it just be a checkbox saying that yes, you have an employee assistance program because when crisis strikes, they're going to need it. They're going to need it to make sure that rational thought is maintained to good decision making. And ultimately we got to go back to work and do the job right. And that's what we signed up for. We're here to provide, we're to serve. We love serving our communities and but sometimes if our minds aren't right, it's difficult for us to serve. And so make sure, double down, dig in, find those professionals out there in your state and your local areas. Having that person with me when we went and delivered those message was crucial. And that individual continues to see certain members of our organization on a regular basis, understand what laws exist in your state to provide those right resources to your members is. Is. Is worth its weight in gold.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
But have a. We. And we didn't necessarily have a solid plan. We. We've been to, you know, the national firefighters, you know, classes of taking care of your own and a lot of those pieces. But I wasn't necessarily prepared as a fire chief on what to go to say to a mom that just lost her. Lost her son. And. And that's the dark side of the fire service. And. And we should talk a little bit about that to help us prepare. We don't ever want to. Yeah, I never wanted to. I don't ever want to do it again. Yeah. But. But some things are simply unfortunate.
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B
Yeah. And.
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And they. And they do happen. And so we can. We can choose to. To. To be. To allow it to blind us and not take action, or we can dig in, have good upfront conversations and. And then we hope and pray that it never happens in another organization. Rather be on the side of having some. Some plans put into play, have some conversation. And, and that's gonna. That's gonna stir us. But don't do it in a vacuum either. Get labor involved, get your other chief staff involved, your admin staff, because they play a crucial role. Our HR person is. Is with all the benefits she has played a major role in all things considered. Make sure she's prepared. Make sure she has the resources to recover through a lot of these pieces. It's okay to talk about it. It's hard, but it's okay to talk about it.
- [31:56]
B
Well, you frame that so well, Chief, you said getting prepared for crisis. And so you're right. It is something that unfortunately, I mean, obviously some organizations will be more prepared, we'll say, or more robust in some of their programs than others. But sometimes, and I hate to say it like, and this is not just about safety, but in anything, sometimes it does. Something happens and then change occurs. And it's hard. It's sometimes proactive work is challenging. You got to put money and stuff behind it. And you know, it's always like an insurance policy. It's like, well, should we put money here? It's history. You know, that these things never happen. But where I'm going with that is, you're right, being prepared is. Can only help you if something ever does happen. So what are some of the programs that Timber Mesa will say incorporated after the fact. Right. I'm assuming you robust look at the employee Assistance program, peer support. But are there some other things that the organization or the membership or the local kind of new programs implemented that would assist in this, what we'll call getting more prepared for crisis in the future?
- [33:04]
A
I think we're still dialoguing a lot of those different components and trying to fine tune those pieces right away. Right prior to, as I spoke a little bit before is we made a major change in our healthcare benefits which included a more robust EAP system and that was through our local state. It's through the PFFAS Healthcare Trust, Professional Firefighters Healthcare Trust and, and that gave us access to, to a lot of medical professionals right away. And we, and we enjoy a good labor management relationship right here. And, and our labor really stepped up in a lot of ways and opened up their union hall and allowed a lot of those functions to take place inside the union hall. So, so firefighters and their families could go invest time and energy into those locations together. And then what, what through our healthcare trust, through our their contractor provider which is called Public Safety Crisis, their, their leaders came in and were able to do direct on site assessments for anybody that was willing. Right. But, but that was pretty much everybody. Yeah.
- [34:13]
B
Good.
- [34:14]
A
In addition to that we're smaller organization. We have a little over 100 members including admin staff and everything. And so we, we did an all hands on meeting as quickly as possible and talked about the timing of communication, what communications should look like, what you should feel, what you should hear. But in addition to that, during Brennan Damon's we pulled our resources off the line and we put them offline for several days and this is where that, that statewide connection mattered. We, we called in Arizona statewide mutual aid system. Jake Chief Rhodes was, was instrumental in that. He's, he's the current president of the Arizona Fire Chief. There's an assistant chief with Phoenix Fire, Tim Kryst kind of leads that with. Well actually one of our assistant chiefs here, Clay Wood helps lead it as well. And we brought in resources all across the state to run services in our community. Why our people grieved just a little bit to get their, their, their, their thoughts and those issues and those challenges and discuss them with those mental health providers to be able to get that clear mind to get back to work. And, and I think that worked for us. That might not work for everybody, but that's something that Tim or Mesa really dug into to, to try to do our best by our people so they can get as, as right as possible. Right. It's just going to take time.
- [35:36]
B
Yeah.
- [35:36]
A
To, to Find that right spot to, to get to. To come back to work. Unfortunately for us, not long after we got back to work, we suffered that third and. And that opened up some, some wounds again.
- [35:49]
B
Yeah. Four months later, right. We look in October, we're in January now. If I can ask, how's Timber Mesa doing and what are some of the ongoing conversations and. Or improvements still yet to take place to help the members of Timber Mesa kind of get back to, you know, a sense of normalcy. We'll say, and it's. I hate to say that because know, they lost, you know, two brothers and a sister in the fire service and their department, but, you know, four months have gone by. How does, how does the fire chief and how do the members promote that sense of let's get better, let's heal, and let's move forward?
- [36:27]
A
You know, it's, it's tough keeping those strong, good, open lines of communication. Be present, be available, have those conversations. One, one thing that we really focused in on during the events and the planning of the funerals was give yourself grace and show grace. And we, and I think we really pride ourselves on that. Right. Because sometimes those little mistakes can start grinding on somebody and then, and then we can get that emotion, that raw emotion coming out. Overall, I think we're doing good. I don't say we're doing fantastic, we're not doing great, but we are good. We are doing good. We're able to provide the services to our community supported by so many other partner agencies all the way around us. I'm confident. I know there's several members continuing to seek that, that treatment that is so vital to. To them in our profession to utilize the services that are available. We got several individuals tapping into what's called the Craig Tiger act in Arizona that allows for extended therapy because you saw the. The death of a brother or a sister. And so we got a handful of individuals that are utilizing that Craig Tiger and very specialized, very specialized therapists to, to work through those pieces, really focus in on. We're here to, to serve our, our community. Our mission is simply to, to provide service to the community through empathy, empowerment and professionalism with excellence. Right. And, and, and we, we embody that. Our people believe that there's not issue. There's not. That's not without issue, that's not without challenges. But if we can focus in on our mission and remember what we're here to do and have the support of each other, I think we're winning from that side of the house and being patient right Some, Some decision making might not rise to the top right now.
- [38:25]
B
Absolutely.
- [38:26]
A
Some things that we thought were pretty important topics probably aren't as important at this moment in time, but really reinvesting into our people because. Because they matter. Yeah. Good solid people performing the jobs that they do so greatly to the community. We don't have anything. And so we got to be patient with our people and, and we asked for patience from us back to the management, to myself, to. To. Because. Because I mean, we went through a tragedy too. And it's tough. But, but really focusing on, hey, keep those open lines of communication. We have a solid labor management group. We have a solid mou. We work together on a regular basis, we talk on a regular basis and show each other a little bit of grace and whatever those challenges are, let's get to the table, let's talk about it. Let's find those solutions. And thus far that's been pretty successful.
- [39:21]
B
Well, every. Everything you said basically outlines traits, if you will, of strong leadership. Right. You talked about keeping open lines, communication, communications is key. You talk about building relationships. We've touched on that already. Having patience and showing yourself grace, having grace for yourself, but showing grace to others. I think all that just shows good leadership traits as it is, let alone during times of crisis. Understanding all those and how critical those are during any time I'd be risked.
- [39:50]
A
If I didn't say, and I have no idea if any local listeners are going to listen to this. Right. But this community, we're a fire district and so we have a fire board, got five electric board members and they were very instrumental in helping us work through their leadership was impactful. But this community embracing us has also helped that they literally bent over backwards from donations, supplies to opening their doors for the school district, for the hosting the services, all those things. And that ties into that building and fostering relationships theme. You know that that's the impact of that local level. And I'm so grateful for this. The community itself.
- [40:37]
B
Well, that's, that's. I'm glad you pointed that out because as we talked about building relationships, we talked earlier about building those within, inside and outside your organization, but not to, not to exclude your own communities. Those are relationships as well. We're not talking about just the members of the workforce. We're talking the members that we serve because they are part of our family as well. And so having that relationship built with the people that we serve is also key because it sounds like they're very instrumental in supporting Timber Mesa Fire and the members that work There as well. So relationships is key. So to shift gears just a little bit, Chief, because the line of duty desk was not the only extreme challenge that you have faced as fire chief. It sounds like you have faced some theft within your organization. We're talking about a lot of money, and I'll obviously let you dive into, you know, as much as you would like to share, but your department has experienced extreme financial challenges, and we're talking a little bit more extreme. And yes, I'll go ahead and say it. More extreme than. Than most other fire departments. You know, fire departments and any industry, you know, experiences financial challenges throughout. But it sounds like you've experienced something. Something to an extreme, if you will. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that?
- [41:46]
A
Absolutely. And that's the topic I present on at that CEOP program. And to clarify a little bit, I would say not this organization. Right. Okay. This is. This is Timber Mesa Fire Medical District.
- [41:59]
B
Yes.
- [42:00]
A
And. And we are made up of. We. We were a merged organization in 2014, and it was one of the predecessor agencies, Sholo Fire. That is where I started my career. And, and I have a lot of good history and a lot of pride in. In Sholo Fire. But Sholo Fire experienced the theft of. Of about $1.8 million. And, and ultimately that was hands at the fire chief at the time and, and his daughter, who was a part of the admin team. And, and gosh, I. I'd hope that was probably the extent of the crisis that I'd ever have to experience in my career or my lifetime. But. But, but it wasn't, of course. But. But it helped shape who I am. It helped get me in the position that I am today through all the lessons learned through that piece. But what a disaster that was. Again, this is. This is a phenomenal community. Very. And unfortunately, you had a bad apple. And that can exist in any part of the world. And I think that's where we have to take pride in our profession. And that's where that accountability comes into play and that partnership and leadership. And I think that's the value of those new chief seminars and the CEOB programs to help weed out some of those bad eggs, those bad apples. We don't. We don't want those in our system. We can't afford to have that. And that's what we experienced. But ultimately, Sholo Fire, over the course of a number of years, fraudulent audits, fraudulent PTO payout schemes, fraudulent checks written to different locations. And I was early in my career recently just tested for an upper Management position, an assistant chief position within an organization. And as I kind of got into that position, started seeing some weird signs of some weird things that were going on. And then ultimately that led to a state auditor general's investigation from the state of Arizona. I ultimately turned it over to Shola pd, which got Navajo County Sheriff's office involved. And then they brought in the auditor Auditor general and they did a full, full audit, forensic audit, and that led to felonies of that fire chief. He never did serve any. Any jail time, but his daughter served consecutive sentence of up to. I. I believe it was seven years at this point in time. A few years removed from it now, but. And then they have to pay the restitution, back that money back to the fire district.
- [44:41]
B
So I, I want to clarify. I apologize for mistaken. So what your position. This was not the fire department you currently had worked for at the time, or it was. Or what was your position?
- [44:49]
A
Yep. So. So Shola Fire. I worked for Shoal Fire and I was an assistant chief.
- [44:54]
B
Okay.
- [44:54]
A
That's when I promote it to assistant chief. And then ultimately, after we found the investigative pieces, we dug into the pieces that administration obviously left. And then I got promoted into the interim fire chief.
- [45:10]
B
Got it.
- [45:11]
A
And that's when we started working on the creation, the merger of Timber Mesa, which is included Sholo and Landon, to create Timur Mesa. And Timur Mesa is a phenomenal organization.
- [45:21]
B
Okay. So thanks for clarifying. So what I want to touch on now is crisis, right? We've been talking about crisis and, and leading through times of change. So there's a lot that obviously took place. Right. Theft within itself. Right. Financial extreme, if you will, loss of trust within membership, organizations, community, let alone a merger of another fire department. Like, there's a lot going on, you stepping in as interim chief and then ultimately the fire chief. There is a lot that needs to take place regarding trying to get the morale back up, trust within the community back up, deal with the merger of fire departments and culture. Talk about extreme of. Of a challenge. So talk about you stepping into a role like that and, you know, the challenges that you face trying to get your fire department up and running to the, to the caliber that, you know, any fire chief would want for their organization.
- [46:18]
A
Oh, it was a disaster. Morale at an extreme. Rock bottom. Distrust from the membership of how do they. How do they trust anything financially at the district? The loss of trust from the community. It led to financial changes, more scrutiny on fire districts all across the state with more stringent audit requirements and financial reporting requirements. And the list goes, goes on and on. Right? So, so stepping into the role at that moment in time, we were, you know, just, just, just under a 40 member organization. I was a brand new and if I'm being completely honest, had no business trying to be a, an assistant fire chief at that moment in time. But we're, it's, I think there's a lot of places across that, like that in rural Arizona where sometimes that's how it just kind of works itself into those positions. Right. And going in and recognizing some, some major issues going on. But there's multiple factors that kind of led up to that, right? One, some individuals asking, hey, Chief, I've asked this question to the previous administration a couple times. Can you produce an audit? I'm like, well, that's a dang good question. I'm not sure we can produce an audit. And then coming back and asking, hey, where's our audit and an auditing getting produced. However, during the fraudulent investigation, we found that it was fraudulent and it was a different fire district of the state with just a, just our name copied and paste onto the pages and then, and then blind followership from the leadership at the time to believe that was right. And ultimately what opened up the doors to all the things was a call to me personally from the county treasurer's office saying, hey, I can't get a hold of the fire chief, I can't get a hold of anybody in your organization, but you have no money in the bank. Which was significant because how do we continue to do payroll? How do we continue to function in the capacities, continue to use services for our communities? So, so how do we rally around all those components? I was actually at an Arizona Fire Districts association conference when a lot of these pieces started to unfold. And so I went to our district attorney, third party attorney. There was an HR consultant that I trusted and then there's other leadership there that I trusted and started presenting some of these pieces and we started putting a plan together. Ultimately, that plan led to the organization bringing in a third party individual to come in to serve as an administrator for the fire district to help balance the fire district budget. We're a taxpayer entity and how do we have a budget, sustained budget that's going to be able to maintain payroll? And so we had to dig in and look at all those pieces. I'm happy to say no firefighters lost their positions, only that upper management would help balance the budget at that point in time. In addition to that, we were able to engage with a third party financial firm, JVG James Vincent group here in Arizona. They were able to come in and service as our financial director. And so my role as an interim fire chief at that point in time was to really focus in on operations and tie in and learn as much as I could about the administration side of the house. But really focusing in on, on keeping the, the, the firefighters focused firefighters doing the job that we needed to go get done and providing that reassurance. And again, same thing. A lot of communication, a lot of trial and error, a lot of hard feelings. Right?
- [49:59]
B
Yeah.
- [50:00]
A
And really working through the, the, the, the partnership, the conversations, the, the teamwork pieces, trying to get as much things as possible. But at the end of the day, once, once those bad eggs were removed and we got a clear picture of what our finances could be and redirect a lot of the hobbles funding should function. The recovery happened relatively quick. Within the first couple years we were back into a solid position where we had solid financial reserves. We were able to start doing normal pay raises with our step increase plan that we had in place and really focusing in on how to build the organization. Dig back into deep about, you know, the normal things that we should do and like what is our strategic plan, what is our mission, what is our vision? We start focusing on those. Right. Things that, that really give us the, the energy to move forward as an organization. But, but it was a challenge.
- [50:53]
B
Absolutely.
- [50:54]
A
I'm really condensing a whole lot of the conversation.
- [50:57]
B
Right, right. So I mean, so how does one you we mentioned earlier about getting prepared for crisis here is certainly a crisis, one that you would never or what? Not so much never, but many obviously hope don't run into. But how do you. I mean you can't train for this type of stuff, but there's certain things that you can do. Obviously I'm going to imagine that this was the first time that you experienced something so extravagant of dealing with as far as a former leader in the fire service. But how did you navigate? Because you know, we don't train for this in our positions. We don't train to deal with when your entire budget is just completely cut and it was stolen for say, well, for example. But you do need to now move forward. You need to come up with plans, you need to communicate, you need to find ways to make it work for the near future and long term future. I mean how is it that you were able to just kind of keep your head above ground and your department running smooth, smoothly so that the customers, if you will, didn't see a Loss or reduction of service regard. You know, even though the organization has, you know, had lost $1.8 million, you.
- [52:07]
A
Know, in, in the beginning there was a lot of uncertainty. We didn't know if we were going to have enough funds to, to be able to pull through to, to continue to provide services. Right. Because.
- [52:17]
B
Right.
- [52:18]
A
So many unknown things that were, that were, that were taking place. Bringing in and I think that's the value of the Arizona Fire Service, getting the right people involved and bringing in those third party firms, bringing in some strong subject matter experts that could go have some strong conversations. So ultimately to be able to continue to provide service, we said hey, we have no strong financials. Let's recreate what our budget is. Let's recreate, start fresh what financials should look like on the proper governmental processes, what that should look like. And we did that as quickly as possible. Strong conversations with the county. So we're a taxing entity. Property taxes, property get taxes get paid into Navajo county and they'd help to. They distribute the fund months through our warrants having conversations with them. Their servicing bank at the time and still is as Wells Fargo. And so we went and, and pled to Wells Fargo for essentially a loan.
- [53:29]
B
Yeah.
- [53:32]
A
A line of credit is essentially what it was of hey, here's who we are. This happened and we acknowledge this, this absolutely happened. And there's an investigation going on and we don't know what it looks like. But here's the value, here's our net assessed valuation, here's our tax rate, here's the revenue that we should bring in in. Here's what a reasonable budget looks like and here's what the expenditure should look like from this reasonable organization with these third party firms that, that they were going out on a limb themselves just a little bit and they didn't collect funds from a away. They were willing to forego their funds until we can get, get, get square, which was huge.
- [54:13]
B
Wow.
- [54:14]
A
And so, so we pled with competent people that had strong relationships already built within the state with a sound budget that was following all the right principles from, from all accounts and said hey, lend us this money, give us this line of credit. And they did. And that line of credit lasted until taxes in Arizona tax dollars come in in October first year impact, second year impact comes in March. Ish. And so we were able to get that first wave a little bit in October. So with that wave of taxes and that line of credit we were able to get through the next six months because this all kind of transpired around July 1st, which is the beginning of our fiscal year. And so we were able to maintain services, reduce expenditures in a number of areas, focus in on making sure our firefighters were maintained with what their needs were. And now we were somewhat solvent as an organization financially to continue to provide service as we approach that next fiscal year. We did a rate increase on our tax rate to help start building those financial reserves. And we communicated, had labor at the group, at the table, part of the group, every part of the decision making, make sure they're part of it. Now here's what the tricky part though is, is Wells Fargo became our fiduciary essentially and said what bills they're going to pay and what bills they weren't going to pay. And so anything frivolous, including it was summertime, any, any type of AC bill. Right. They weren't going to help fund up to a certain level. Wow. And so there was a lot of, lot of commitment, a lot of personal sacrifice on the firefighter side to kind of suffer through some of that pieces. But we could show them what it looked like on the back end if we can get back into our normal pieces, on our normal revenue coming in capture. Right. So in addition to that, what kind of things could we surplus, what kind of things can we sell to help supplement our capital revenue and digging in and getting as creative as possible and listening to anything that was possible. Going and seeking grants. Well, it's hard to, kind of hard to get a grant when your financials aren't good. But I mean there are so many different pieces but, but slowly but surely start chipping away. So we, we started in the, in, in quite the negative position.
- [56:31]
B
Yeah.
- [56:32]
A
Within the next couple years because of good decision making, because of good people coming to the table.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah.
- [56:38]
A
Doing things properly, getting the right look at pieces. In addition to that also. I should finish that thought. So we were able to finish here with, with, with several hundred thousand dollars back in our, into our financial reserves, back on solid ground. We dug right in and said, hey, we need, we need to start doing audits. We're required to do an audit. And so we saw one of the biggest auditing firms in Arizona, beach and Fleshman, to come in and do an audit. It was not a good audit, but it was an audit and it set the table for all things considered. And I'm proud to say since that day, every single audit that that Show Fire had and now Timber Mesa had, and we just finished up our audit for this last fiscal year has been an unmodified, unmodified modded. And now we receive rewards for financial management. So.
- [57:28]
B
Wow.
- [57:28]
A
We've worked hard to. And we maintain that. And, and, and, and that's why I'm sharing the story. Right. Because. Because it's all about transparency.
- [57:36]
B
Yeah.
- [57:37]
A
And we're never going to allow it to happen again. And I don't want it to happen anywhere else.
- [57:41]
B
Absolutely. So a question that I have, Chief, is you mentioned uncertainty and you know, sacrifice at all ranks. You know, chief officers, firefighters, the community. Did your organization witness any personnel leaving the organization to go elsewhere for more certainty, for more, you know, future that was, you know, a brighter future, quote, unquote. I hate, I hate to say that, but did you. Did your organization experience any of that?
- [58:08]
A
Yeah, we, we lost a few, few people, but. But actually not a lot because of that. Some of the individuals that we lost at the time, we had a reserve pool. And, and one of the things we, we really had to scale back is, is the utilization of overtime and the utilization of the reserve pool. And so those reserves were not getting the, the, the sh. Shifts that they would normally be picking up. And so they had to go seek some other stuff, unfortunately. And so I think we lost some good people. And at those times, that was our hiring poll when it, when a position opened up in the organization, we would go to that reserve pool to fill those ranks. And so we, we unfortunately lost some good people because of that. Oddly enough, most people stayed and in, in fact we had some open positions and, and what depleted that reserve polls. We, we hired the last two people off that reserve pool and they still work for us today because, because they could believe in. They, they grew up here. They had faith in what we were trying to do as an organization. They believed in that and, and it was true and they stuck around.
- [59:17]
B
Absolutely.
- [59:18]
A
But we, but we, we did lose a few and, and that was unfortunate. There was, there was a couple people that they just didn't work for them and, and they, they didn't have the faith and they didn't have the trust and right. And found what was right for them and their families and. Yeah, but that was, that was few and far between.
- [59:36]
B
It's good to hear. I mean it sounds like the, the culture that was built leading up to, over the years and traditions of culture both Timber Mason show low. It shows that the fact that you wouldn't have lost, we'll say more individuals. It just, it goes to the strength of that because you can imagine, one can imagine within any organization if morale had been low leading up to the culture Was we'll say not great leading up to. And then you go through these challenges, whether it be line of duty deaths, whether it be theft or, you know, uncertainty and funding for the organization. You could, you could imagine that that's where mass exodus can take place, you.
- [60:14]
A
Know, and it could. And that's on the top of our mind right now as we, as we still recover from the recent line of duties. And, and we, we a lot of people that work for this organization, they work in other locations across the state and there's plenty of job opportunities and we have lost a couple people.
- [60:34]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [60:35]
A
And I don't want to attribute it to just this component.
- [60:38]
B
Right.
- [60:39]
A
I just chatted with one of our firefighters yesterday that was, was leaving and lives down in the Phoenix area and very good friend of mine and, and I hate to lose this guy, he's just rock solid. But his family lives in the Valley, recreates in the Valley. I call the Valley. That's a Phoenix area. And it's going to be easy on him and it's easier on his family and, and is part of his decision making as a result of the. What had transpired? I don't know that to be certain, but we, we have lost a couple individuals and we might lose a couple more. And, and one thing we're going to keep working on is recruitment and retention and I think we all suffer from that. Yes, we do. And if we can focus in on having a good culture and making sure we're reasonable with wages and benefits and living accommodations and all the right things, I'm confident we have a good solid core here and we'll be able to continue to attract the right people to come serve this community.
- [61:36]
B
Absolutely. And I hope so. Right. I want to pivot the conversation a little bit, Chief, because a very important aspect of leadership, I think we would all agree and in life as well is wellness. So you served for 30, over 30 years, 35 years. You went through, I'm sure some of the highest highs and lowest of lows, many of the things that we just discussed. But there's obviously so much in your career that we know never even talked about. Most leaders don't go through what you went through, let alone a fire Chief. This is really a three part question. How did you. How are you? But also how would you suggest other leaders in the fire service take care of themselves through times of crisis? But the first one being, how are you doing, Chief? Because you've taken the burden of a lot of this. So how are you doing?
- [62:34]
A
Ah, gosh Dan, that's, that's you're spot on and all these things take, take a toll and I'm doing good. My, my family is, is my family. My faith definitely renewed my faith through, through a lot of these pieces, but my wife Cassie and all my kids and, and all my family have really rallied around me and, and through the line of duties. Cassie was by my side through all of it and making sure I was well taken care of, making sure I was eating the right things and drinking plenty of water and all the things that I'm supposed to be doing. But it definitely takes a toll on a human regardless of how well you've prepared for any of those components of it. And I, and I have a good strong network all across the state and I'm blessed to, to have just a number of good friends and mentors and one of them we've mentioned multiple times, Jake Rhodes, but there's so many others across the state and we'll talk about another one here in a few minutes with, with who I'm going to challenge next. Right. But just some rock solid individuals that constantly check on me and, and are pushing me to think about the right things and, and that's helped tremendously. So my, my health. I would say physically I'm, I'm not where I want to be necessarily but, but I'm, but I'm able to maintain and, and, and focus in on trying to do all those right things mentally with having the right people in my corner, some strong mental professionals out there in my corner and, and, and not be scared to go reach out and have those conversations with them has definitely kept me where I need to be. And my staff, the. I have three rock solid assistant chiefs, they've all walked through this same thing and dealt with in their own ways but, but they are instrumental in my life and I could not be thankful enough for each one of them for all the support they've they've given me and, and, and this organization. They are true leaders and have dug in deep in the different realms of responsibilities that they have and, and that's helped me. It really helped me to focus in on trying to be there for anybody. If somebody needed me, I wanted to go be there for them. And, and that kept me in my, in my right mind space. But it's been, it's been a major challenge. So renewing my faith and focusing in on and kind of practice what we all preach. Right. We talk about mental wellness, mental pieces. Don't be scared to go talk to somebody. Yeah, it's okay. But don't forget about your family. You don't forget about your wives, your husbands, your kids because they are, they are living it, they're walking it with you and they need to be strong too. So make sure they have the right resources because when all is well, things are 100%. But when, when, when, when your family's doing good, your organization is doing good and given resources they need that will simply help a fire chief.
- [65:32]
B
Absolutely.
- [65:33]
A
But I have countless people reaching out to me on a regular basis which it's just a blessing.
- [65:39]
B
Good perform and that's, that's very reassuring because I've always wondered, you know, me being at the level I'm at now is, I've always like I've got peer support, I've got my crew, I've got the union. You know, I got my family. They're always checking up on me. But I've always wondered who, who takes care of the fire chief. Right. And like I don't see firefighters on a regular basis going up to the chief's office and you know, I don't see peer support checking into the fight. Maybe they do, maybe then that's the way it's built. But I'm glad.
- [66:07]
A
Crazy enough. But yeah, several members came and good. Personally checked on me.
- [66:12]
B
Good.
- [66:13]
A
But no, you're, you're spot on here. And we, we just finished up a, a strategic planning process through the Arizona Fire Chief with Jake Rhodes. And, and one of the topics that we talked about is fire chief support network. Right. And, and I felt it and I received it and it's a real thing and it's very impactful. But, but, but can we, can we build upon those things? And I'm confident there wasn't a fire chief in the state that didn't reach out to me. Awesome conversation with me from the smallest to the largest of all organizations. And, and, and, and I, I'm of course invested into that conversation a lot. And so how do we repay that? How do we, how do we make sure that's available not only for when crisis.
- [66:57]
B
Exactly.
- [66:58]
A
But just in general.
- [66:59]
B
Exactly.
- [67:00]
A
General conversations of those good check ins to we shouldn't wait for crisis.
- [67:06]
B
And that's exactly what I was going to go with, Chief. And you said that so well because yes, during times of crisis the hope is that everybody, even people that you didn't know will reach out. But sometimes it's not about waiting for a crisis to take place. We should be checking up on each other always. And that's where I believe where you Kind of hit home today was you got to have that network, build relationships and have other people reach out to you regularly. And that goes to your common theme today, which you said many times was getting prepared for crisis. And I think part of getting prepared for crisis is having that regular check ins with everybody, people across the state, people within your organization, the labor group, all the above. So when crisis hits, nothing's a surprise. You have your network there and you can count on it, or if things.
- [67:49]
A
Come up as a surprise, you're better able to deal with it because you're, you have the right relationships to go have those conversations.
- [67:57]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [67:58]
A
Some things you, you just don't know. I didn't know, but I didn't know. I still don't know a lot of things in life.
- [68:04]
B
Absolutely.
- [68:05]
A
How I get up in ranks.
- [68:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So Moving forward, Chief, 2026 is a new year for you, obviously hoping and praying for great things for you and obviously your fire department, but optimistic. Looking forward, I take it, and all things looking good for you in your department coming, coming up this year.
- [68:22]
A
Yeah, I'm excited for 2026.
- [68:25]
B
Good.
- [68:25]
A
25 was, was, was not a friend of ours, but 26 is looking really good. We got some, some awesome. We just went through several promotional processes and just promoted some strong leaders and some cool positions. We're going to be updating our strategic plan this year, finalizing the latest version of our MOU. Some cool projects coming up. And, and so, yeah, 26 is looking really good for Timber Mesa. We're good. We're excited to take on whatever, whatever this year brings us, but I hope and pray it's nothing like last year.
- [68:56]
B
Absolutely. Well, I, again, I've said it a few times. I hope nothing for the best and obviously the listeners here would say the same thing. Nothing but the best for Timber Basic Moving forward, Chief Leadership Challenge. We are here today because Jake Rhodes obviously kindly challenged you to be a guest. The success of the podcast can only be such if the guest challenges more guests, otherwise there are no guests. So I ask, is there someone else out there that you would like to challenge to come share their perspective on leadership?
- [69:26]
A
Absolutely. And, and I, and Jake Rhodes is a good friend and he's a mentor of mine and I'm thankful that he, he nominated me for this and so I'm grateful for that. So thank you for bringing me on the show and one of those other individuals that not only during this crisis or these crisis that we've experienced, but, but he's just been part of my life for a number of years. And his name is Danny Johnson. Danny's the current president of the Arizona Fire Districts Association. I serve with him on a regular basis. He's a current fire chief for the Verde Valley Fire District and Copper Canyon Fire District. They're the two neighboring districts. And he's kind of serving as the head for both those organizations. Mentor of mine was one of the first individuals that reached out to me, was by my side whenever I needed him. And. And he has himself been through some challenging things in his career. And so we have. We have some shared commonality there, and I think we have some shared visions, and that's why we're serving together in the. In the two leadership roles for the Arizona fire districts. And I love this guy. He's. He's a. He's a rock solid individual, and I think he'll have great value for. For this show and the listenership.
- [70:42]
B
Absolutely. I appreciate that, Chief. And I would like to say and point out that Arizona, after today's show, is just widening that gap again with more leaders on this show from Arizona than any other state. So with the challenge, as long as Chief Johnson accepts it, we'll be. We'll be still heavy on the Arizona side of things, which is great because, you know, Arizona breeds great leaders, is what I've said many times. So whether it be Jake Rhodes, Tim Kreiss was actually on the show. And so we're. We're just widening that gap here in Arizona. So I love it. I love it. I just want to say thank you, Chief, for being a guest on the show again and giving up an hour, 20 minutes of your time before we close. I'll give you this opportunity. What would your lasting leadership thoughts be for the listeners before we close?
- [71:25]
A
I think it falls right into the theme, right. You know, preparing for that crisis, but really what it all revolves around is building and fostering relationships. When I went through my interview process for my current role as fire chief here for Tim Ramesa, that was what I shared with the fire board of. My number one priority and will be my number one priority is obviously taking care of our people, but building and fostering relationships anywhere and everywhere I can. So don't, don't forget that. Do it work, it build those relationships. It has last lasting impacts forever. But if I might, I just want to give a huge thanks to the whole entire U.S. fire Service and beyond. I continue to get letters to this day of gratitude, sympathy of the recent tragedies that we experience. There's letters from all over the place. And they continue to come in and it means a lot to me. It means a lot to this organization. It means a lot to our people. So whoever's listening to this, thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for your support, love and gosh, I hope and I pray that no one else has to go through what we experienced. But thank you so much for all.
- [72:42]
B
The support, of course, and for those that are listening in, I think we would all share the same sentiment regarding what you went through and I hope people listen and resonate with the message that you gave because you certainly offered a message that not many will either witness or in or experienced. And so your perspective definitely influences. And with that being said, the listeners here are those all across the country. So I thank you again for giving up your time today. So with that, Chief, thanks again for being a guest today on the kitchen table.