← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 91: Tyrral Quinn, Captain - Vulnerability & Failures
01:05:38
Loading summary
Transcript58 lines
- [00:02]
A
Failure is always an option. And it's not the failure that defines you, it's what you do after that failure. If you're struggling, that just means you still have the ability to fight. It's when you stop struggling, when it's over. So identify that first and know that you don't have to have the answer. You just have to have the strength to go search for the answer.
- [00:34]
B
Apartment Building.
- [00:38]
A
The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal.
- [00:59]
B
Build more leaders. Leaders. Today on the Kitchen Table we have Atiro Quinn, who is a fire service leader, author and emergency management professional with nearly two decades of experience in municipal government. He has served as a volunteer firefighter, lieutenant captain, assistant training officer, hazmat specialist, and emergency management coordinator for a regional hospital system. Tyrell holds a Master of Public Administration in Emergency Management and is the author of the Calling the Unseen Work of Leading well, A Leadership Memoir Rooted in Servant Leadership, stewardship and Professional Accountability. He is also a published contributor to Firehouse Magazine and regularly delivers leadership lectures and training sessions focused on officer development, culture and professional growth. He's passionate about developing leaders at every level of the fire service and strengthening organizational culture through discipline, humility and purpose driven leadership. It's not good morning because you're on the east coast over there with the snow and the below freezing levels, which is out of the norm for North Carolina, but good afternoon, Terrell, how are you?
- [02:17]
A
I'm outstanding, Berlin. Thanks for having me. Appreciate the time and effort to, to set this up and everything that you do.
- [02:24]
B
Absolutely. Well, thank you for, for reaching out because you reached out to me and I was glad to have the conversation back and forth on email and then the, the conversation went on the phone. So I'm excited for this. And before we start though, so the listeners can learn a little bit about Turo, share a little bit before we go.
- [02:42]
A
Oh well, this will be my second decade in the fire service. I'm an old man and I realized recently that I don't have much time left in this profession. And in doing so, I sat back and started thinking, what can I do to steward this profession into the next generation? And the coming on that you see, when I came in, it was great. Just after 9 11, everybody loved the fire service. Everybody gave something. You know, there was, there was a, I would, I mean there was obviously the respect to it, but there was also this, this Camaraderie and this brotherhood and this. This sense of we're doing this for the right reason. And through my time in the service, we've kind of lost a little bit of that. So that's one of the reasons why I wrote the Calling. But, you know, you learn a little bit about me. I've been with this, the part with City of Faithful for this will be 18 years now. Before that I was in a smaller municipality, and before that I was a. A volunteer. And I just fell in love with the fire service. I fell in love with just serving our fellow man. And again, that's a calling to that all of us, I'm sure, share. But after going through college and everything, I. I had this urgency that just what I was doing wasn't the right thing. So I found the fire service and I never looked back since then. Thank you.
- [04:11]
B
And we're going to dive a lot into, you know, what you've been through, because it sounds like you've been through a lot and you're going through a lot now, a lot of it. Very, very exciting. But you are an author. You served as a firefighter, lieutenant, captain. You dealt with an injury that kind of pushed you out of the department, or you had to leave the department and go into the private sector. And now your department welcomed you back and now testing for battalion chief. So we have a lot to talk about and I want to kind of fill the gaps there on. On your story, but also kind of the. The experiences that you had along the way and how that contributed to growth, your growth, leadership, and all the above. But to start, I want to talk about the calling. So the book that you wrote is the Calling, why Leadership Is a Responsibility, Not a Rank. So we've all heard that before regarding leadership is about what you do has nothing to do with formal position in the organization. What inspired your will to write a book and why this topic?
- [05:10]
A
It's twofold, really, kind of threefold. Initially, it was a bet made by one of my captains long ago, and I lived up to it. So she owes me at least $5. We'll get into that in a moment here. First phase is in the academy. I had a mentor. His name was Archie Cox. I speak very highly of him in the book. But he said, and I remember it to this day, that if I could remember half of the things that I've forgotten and written them down, I would be a famous author. Just the calls we go on, and I'm sure everybody in the services had those strange calls or those exciting you know, events that happened. But I took that to heart and I started just jotting things down. Certain calls that did that meant something to me or just journaling, honestly, is what did it. Again, we spoke about me taking an injury. We can get into that. But it wasn't until I was out of the service that I started collecting all the things that I've written down over the years. And that bet came out and I said, you know what? Let's. Let's do this. This. It was a form of therapy for me. But it was also. I noticed that while I was a captain with the city and within the service in general, I can only speculate that I was seeing a lot of good people drifting without a compass. We're putting people in the leadership roles, and we're not teaching them to be leaders. We're very good at teaching them to be managers. We're teaching them how to move apparatus from one area to the next. We're teaching them how to schedule a day. We're teaching them how to fill out paperwork. But we're not teaching people to lead when it means the most. We're not teaching people to look at their. Every individual on their team, know what their strengths and weaknesses are and be able to adapt that team to the better benefits. One of the biggest things I believe that we need to do and what I've learned through my readings and just my experience and learning from my mentors is. And I. And I stress it a lot in the book, is that we have to be able to sacrifice our own reputations for the talents and experiences of others on our team to be successful. And I think it was. It. It was a eureka moment for me when I. I got to my station, Station 9, and let my people be themselves and let them, you know, show me what they were capable of. You know, I may make the day, but they're the ones that make the day accessible and easy to do. So that's the heart of this book and the principles behind it.
- [07:48]
B
That's awesome. So I would want to clarify. I apologize for misspeaking on the title of the book. The title of the book is the Calling the Unseen Work of Leading. Well, that's the name of the book. And we were just talking about leadership being a responsibility. So I want to hit on one thing real quick because you said sacrificing our own for the benefit of others. Now, I obviously paraphrased it a little bit, but that's not easy. We'll say, like you mentioned, that we're not teaching Our company officers, our leaders of today to be, you know, leadership. Right. We're teaching them to be managers like you said. So it's so spot on since we know we're not teaching our officers or leaders of today the importance of sacrificing. The end result is we don't sacrifice if you will not, meaning that's bad, but unintentionally, we're not exactly. We're not, you know, preaching the importance of our upcoming leaders. The necessity of sacrificing your time, your energy, your own development, sometimes to make sure others are cared for in many aspects. Because as you wrote the book, I imagine you used experience in there and not just theory. So can you talk about, you know, some experiences where, you know, sacrificing is important and why, you know, it works?
- [09:07]
A
So when I got my. When I took over the station captain at nine, the team I had, they were all great firefighters. They know that they had their skills and their development. The captain before them, outstanding, he just retired. And before he left, you know, there was. He was older and you know, he. Some things happen, you know, some. I'm not saying he did anything wrong, but he was getting ready for that phase of his life. So some things went by the wayside. They weren't eating together, they weren't sitting in the, you know, come for downtime. Everybody separated and disappeared. One of the biggest things for me was, I understand that that's their downtime, but to actually have a cohesive group. One of the things I wanted to do was make sure that they all sat at the kitchen table, make sure that we didn't have to eat the same meals, but we had to sit together and eat. We had to. If we're going to be a team, we need to be amongst each other. And at first there were some Hemming and Han. You know, grown men, you know, they don't want somebody telling them what they do, what they should and shouldn't be doing. And there was some resentment and some, and some resiliency in it. But I started bringing in our older captains, our retirees, and just people outside the station to come and sit and eat with us. And, and these stories came together and what I started to notice was that my crew started to bond and started to grow in more. And once I noticed that to start to happen our meals, it wasn't just eat quick, do the dishes, and then they separate and do their downtime. What it was was eat quick. Oh, we've been sitting around the table for two hours. If we're not Running a call or anything. They're talking to these retirees. They're getting, gaining knowledge and experience from them, but they're also being more cohesive, more a family, if you will. And that started going, that, that little bit there, started going towards their training. They started relying on each other a little bit better. They started knowing that Johnny was good at this, but he was horrible at knots. But Stephen was amazing at knots and he needed a little bit here. They started commingling and understanding each other. You know, that's what I hear a lot nowadays, is that we're not a crew anymore. This is just a job. Well, it's the captain's responsibility to sacrifice his time to make sure that we make ourselves a crew. And in that's where you start to take away some things. Now once my crew started becoming cohesive, I started saying, okay, well let's look at the operation set and see how we do this. Yes, we have policies and procedures, but how we operate within those isn't just my. I might have the responsibility that we operate in those, but they're the ones that make it happen. So I would sit down and say, okay, on this type of call. A single family structure fire in my area, the engine's obviously going to go out first. The ladder will follow behind it and in our apartment complex the ladders will go first and whatever. What do you guys think about instead of going from going around the division, from ABC side on the engine, the truck goes the opposite direction so that we had a four sided view. That's one less thing I have to worry about. Oh, that's great. Or they would come up with another idea like, well, you know, if Johnny's going to grab the line on this, I want to have these tools. They start making the decisions themselves and strengthening their bonds and their understanding of the operation. I could sit back. All I had to do was take the responsibility, say if that's what we're going to do, I, we're following the, the standards that we need to follow. I take full responsibility of it. If it works, you guys did an amazing job. If it doesn't work, I got to take the responsibility for that and go, that was my bad, guys. That was my decision. Let's pull back and figure this out and make it better. In doing that, the crew had skin in the game and they, they started to realize that they're a part of something bigger. I don't have to make the decisions, I just have to hold the responsibility in that, you know, if I can trust in their ability to do their jobs. They're trained. I'm making sure that they're trained every day. I'm making sure that they can do their job and making sure they came to work, to work, that they're mentally, physically and able to do their job. Let them work, Let them do what they're supposed to do.
- [13:18]
B
Yeah, I know Simon Sinek talks about this concept that it just, it hit home. And he says, as a leader, as a former leader in an organization, right, we'll use company officer. In this case, you're no longer responsible for the direct customer service. You're responsible of the people, for the people that are delivering the service directly to the customer. So in this case, what you say, whether it be an EMS call or fire, yeah, the company officer is not the one taking the hand line, putting water on the fire, but they're ultimately responsible for the direction of those that are supposed to grab the hand line to go put out the fire. And so if you lead well, in that case, everything gets done seamlessly, responsibly, with ownership, with buy in. Kind of what you're saying that sacrifice is, is so key because we don't talk about that enough. Because sacrifice can have a negative connotation. We'll say like, you have to sacrifice. You have to give up something. And it's like, if we can reframe that, like, yeah, I do have to give up something. I have to give up my time, I have to give up my energy. I have to give up my knowledge. That's a good thing, right? We should be thinking that as leaders, as how can I sacrifice for you? Not oh, I have to sacrifice. Right. Because it's about passing down of the knowledge and the craft. What I found interesting in your story is that you mentioned you're bringing in retirees. Was this an intentionality? Thinking like these individuals can spend time with these individuals because it'll help them. Where did that come about?
- [14:46]
A
You know, Isaac Newton, one of my favorite quotes of all time, Isaac Newton says, if it is I who can see further is because I sit on the shoulders of giants. Those are the people that came before us. Those are why we are in the organization.
- [14:58]
B
We are.
- [14:59]
A
Those are why we have the operations that we have, or the equipment that we have or, or the reasoning behind why we do what we do nowadays. If we don't know the stories behind that, then we don't have the ability to communicate where we go in the future. So it's important that we bring those people in there. But on the second note of that too is this. It's not only secession planning. And we got to remember not only where we came from, but they're still out there. I don't know how it is on a lot of other departments, but we do a Christmas dinner every year for our retirees. And I love that. But I've started to notice a couple years ago I went to one of them and we have a table of all of them that have passed. And I started seeing things that I didn't like. They're younger and younger. They don't get to enjoy their retirement as much. And we're missing out on these stories from these younger generations. We have an epidemic in the fire service now. And it's not just my department. I see it everywhere where we're recycling people. It's become a job and not a profession anymore. We just need butts and seats. And I think the whole purpose of writing this book was to. To show that if we cultivate this profession back into what it used to be, you know, it's not a job, it's a career. It's a. It's. It's a calling. It's. You know, I said an early profession. I can't think of another word for that. But we got to change the mindset to that. And in doing that, we got to know what happened before and, and understand hearing the stories of these guys, they want to tell them, our retirees, they want to come in there, they want to sit, they want to drink some coffee, they want to tell their stories, and they also want to see what's going on the next day. You know, my favorite thing is our, you know, back in the day, we had a. We had an engine that was, you know, 30 years old when I got on there. And now it's a reserve. And now we, our equipment nowadays, it. Our frontline stuff lasts 10 years and then we got a new. We get something new in there. So these, these older guys are seeing us progress and, and see where we're going. And these younger guys don't see that what they suffered on, you know, they had to make and fix their equipment on site. They didn't have the maintenance department that we have now. And understanding their ingenuity is what brought them to where we are now. It's important to tell the whole story.
- [17:17]
B
I totally agree. It's always important to. It'd be like reading a book and only seeing part of it or the end of it, the middle to the.
- [17:25]
A
End that the public service story of. We never get the ending, you know, we always, we go to the bad calls and we, we never know the ending of the story. That it's our responsibility as leaders to, to provide as much of that conclusion so that these guys can move on. That's a lot of the reason why, why the trauma that we have is so bad. I mean, we see it all the time, but we get no conclusion to the situation. Yeah.
- [17:51]
B
One thing that you mentioned that I really want to talk about is, as you mentioned, knowing history, as you mentioned, like it's a leaders or company officers responsibility to be, to, to hold that space, if you will. A lot of people will look at it as, because you talked about the, the turnover, people are coming, people are going and they're treating like a job, not a profession, not a career. A lot of people will cough it up to you. Oh, it's just that generation. And that'll be just simple as that. It's that generation. Well, what I look at it is whether it's just that generation. That's the generation that's here. Like they are, they're coming, they're here and they'll be here for the next 15, 20 years, until the next generation. We don't, we don't hire the previous generation to come back and work because they have not retired out. And so my point to that is whether that's the mindset of the generation. Let's say that's accurate. Let's just say that's accurate. It's still the leader's responsibility to help shape and encourage and teach the ways of how we're doing things now and to help people recognize that this is a profession, this is a career, not just a job. How can I help include you into the conversation to this organization, to be a part of it so that it's not just a job. And so it's not a revolving door of they've been here five years, they want to go find something else. Because you said it spot on. It's the leader's responsibility. But so what do you do? It's a question I have is if the company officer has that mindset, you know, the company officer's mindset is also, you know, they're just, they're just, they're coming, they're going. And even the company officer, you know, feels like, ah, you know, maybe I'll be here and I'm still looking for something better, maybe in five years. That's a challenge. Also.
- [19:33]
A
That's a manager, that's a manager leader mindset. Again, management is important in this job. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that at all. But that's when we start putting managers in these captains or house or lieutenant positions and they don't. They just want to keep the machine running. We can keep them, we can put parts in the machines and they're not high quality parts and they'll run for a little while, but eventually they're going to wear out faster and we're going to have the same problems again, or worse. I like what you said about the generational aspect of it. I have a little twist in it though. I take full responsibility for a lot of the problems that are going on right now because I sat in that captain's chair and I saw these things going on and I didn't speak up at first. So I take full responsibility for what's going on right now. That's why I wrote the book, that's why I'm doing these podcasts. That's why I'm trying to push this message out there. I am so tired of hearing people say that these rookies don't know nothing. They can't make a bed, they don't know a drill box from a battery, they don't know how to cut the grass. It is our job as their captains, their lieutenants, their leaders to shape them. I would rather have somebody not know anything than somebody walk in there and tell me that they know everything and just send them on their way. Because that's not how this works. This profession, we are here to mold and craft. Look at these newer recruits, these new rookies, this new generation as your clay and you're the artist. Whatever you craft in that clay is your responsibility. If that's your artwork, if that's what you want to display for the world to see, that's what you're going to display. If you don't take time into it, if you don't put effort into it, if you don't take the time to craft it and develop it and that's what you got, that's what you get to display. If you take responsibility, if you take the time to shape and mold the way you want to do it.
- [21:28]
B
Then.
- [21:28]
A
You should be proud of what you present.
- [21:31]
B
Proud is exactly what I was going to say. There's a lot more pride behind developing something from the ground up, we'll say. And that being the comparison or metaphor for a newer firefighter that either is struggling or doesn't know much about the way things are, about not how to cut the grass, not knowing how to use simple hand tools, whatever it may be there's so much more pride and accomplishment versus having the person that comes in and fits in perfectly, knows the job and you don't have to do much. Right. Leadership is not easy. It shouldn't be easy. You know, you should be working every day to help others, to develop others, because that's what you're paid to do. And that's the ultimate responsibility, in my opinion, of being a leader in the fire service, in public service is, is helping others and developing others to become really, really competent. We'll say, to be able to deliver the service out to the customers or even internally to each other. And so a leader's responsibility, like you said, is it should be getting out there and developing those people, especially those that will say, doesn't really understand or know the position or how to do things. Let's do it. Let's make it happen. Let's. Let's develop them, take on the challenge.
- [22:45]
A
That's the whole point of it. And I feel that a lot of our. A lot of our evening, when I got into the position I was put in, I wasn't given a handbook. I wasn't given all these classes on how to do it. I had to go figure it out for myself. There are a lot of good people just adrift right now because they don't know. You have the opposite end of that, too. When you get these people in power, they try to hold all this knowledge, this little kernel of knowledge in there, and because they know it, nobody else does, they feel it. That's their strength, and they're in control. If they give it away, then they're not important anymore, right? We can't look that way. We're going to look at this as stewardship here. It is my job, the, the title of captain, the title of chief, the title of lieutenant is not something you hold. You're borrowing it and you're getting ready to give it to the next group of people. So what you. How you care for that, how you take care of it? Are you shining your collar brass every day? Are you out there, you know, showing these guys how to do their job, how you cultivate it now is what they're going to be next. And again, like I said, I take responsibility. And some of the captains and other leaders in this service right now, I see that they're lacking in things that if I could go back in time, I would spend more time pushing in a direction of showing it's not as hard as you think it is. It's just mundane and a lot of monotonous work. It's just putting the time in there. Yes. You got to go over the same thing over and over and over again until somebody grasp it. But if we keep attacking it the same way, expecting a different outcome, we're never going to get there. You got to learn as a leader to pull back and go, okay, this isn't working. Let me go from this direction. Oh, not working there either. Let me go from this direction. Oh, you got it. I had a, I had a fireman. She was 115lbs and her weakest weaknesses were throwing ladders. We have to be able to throw our 24 foot ladders by ourselves quickly, you know, and that was one of her biggest concerns was that she couldn't do it. I, I, I probably spent three months just showing her how I used to do it, how I do it, how my, my bigger guy, Stephen does it, how all these other people do. And I said, look at this is how they do it. You're not as big as Stephen. You're not, I mean, I'm not a huge guy, but you're not as big and strong as I am. You're going to have to find a way to get it up there. The goal is, is just to get the ladder up there in a certain amount of time safely so you can do the job so that I don't care if you pull the ladder off, put on the ground and you drag it and get it up there, as long as you get it up there. She was so determined to doing it correctly and right that she spent the time and perfected it to her, to the point to where it wasn't a deficiency anymore. It became one of her strengths. You know, I'm very proud of, of her ability to do that. And, and, and in her gaining that trust and ability in doing that, she figured out on her own that she could do other things that way. And it just developed her into being a better firefighter. She's actually on your side of the, the nation as a hotshot, I think, is what she's doing now.
- [25:56]
B
Oh, is that right? Oh, wow.
- [25:57]
A
That's insane.
- [25:58]
B
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, and then it's, it's a lot more downstream in addition to all that too, because the way that that individual will say is treated or trained and, you know, recognize that their company officer, their crew was first of all patient with them, help them, you know, recognize that, you know, I have the ability and confidence to do it. Maybe if I learn a different way, talking about, you know, the way people you know, teach and learn. People learn and teach differently. People absorb information differently. But you allow the space for this individual to learn. And now when that individual, because we're all leaders, we talked about leaders aren't a rank. So this person is a leader. This person is a leader to those that follow her, that are behind her. And so that person has the experience now to have the patience for somebody else because she was able to experience the same. Let's talk about balance because I know one thing that you talk about, you know, is the balancing of humility, which I love, confidence, but also accountability. It's so important to talk about accountability, right? Because we have to have ownership, we need to have, you know, high standards for ourselves and we need to be held accountable. We need to be accountable for others, to others, but also hold ourselves accountable. So talk about this balance and what you speak of.
- [27:15]
A
I mean, just that I. Best, best way to do this is just to give you an experience from one of the calls that is actually in the book. We had a, a infant nine echo call in a pretty bad area town. When that went out there, both apparatus go out the engine in the truck. So you get extra hands in there to do what you got to do. Because of the area and the situation, our truck wasn't going to fit in there and get us, get the ambulance in there. So I had them parked further down and meet us in there. So that means the engine was going to be on scene for a little bit longer of time but you know, we're still able to operate and do work well. I had a younger fireman at the time. He's probably six months out of rookie school and you know, hard charging, always wanted to do right, you know, you know, not really tested on in the stress factors aspect of it. So this is probably one of those big stress calls for him. Get on scene. You know, it's chaotic, police everywhere because of the area, people coming out and just, just, just a very chaotic scene. Immediately get to the child, child isn't breathing. Start performing life saving activities. As I'm doing compressions, I look to my fireman, he's a little froze up and I'm like, hey, get the equipment, get the aed, let's get the bvm. Let's, you know, let's do our job and continue doing what I'm doing. Well, feels like attorney goes by and I look back at him and go, hey man, let's go. And he's just looking at me, I'm like, what's going on? I don't have the bvm. Well, okay, you know get, it's in the bag, correct? I don't know, we'll find out. My lieutenant is at that time trying to get information and whatnot and because of the panic my fireman was having, my lieutenant started to panic and they're sitting there throwing everything out of the bag or what, what have you by that time still doing compressions or whatever. The truck gets there, all their equipment. We do what we have to do, get the baby to the hospital and this is about 3 o' clock in the morning. Well we get, I get back to the station because since I was had hands on patient my fireman was, he just wasn't there at the time mentally. So I, I went wrote into the hospital. When I got back to the hospital I got everybody out in the bay. I lined him up and I said, I, I said if I have to yell then, then I've failed you guys. Yelling doesn't get this situation correct. But I want to ask a couple of questions and these aren't rhetorical. I said whose responsibility is it to check off that bag in the morning? And my lieutenant goes to the fireman. I said no, that's, that is incorrect, try again. And he said well then it's the driver. Whoever's and whoever drives the apparatus is in, is responsible for all the equipment. And I said no, that's incorrect too. I said I am responsible for every piece of equipment in this station. I am responsible for everything in it from the pain on the walls to whoever's breathing in it at the time. Anything that happens in this station is my responsibility. I allow you guys, I pass down that to allow you to check the trucks off because I trust in your ability to do your job. You've earned that trust to do your job correctly. But understand that if something goes wrong, it falls on me. Now we failed, I failed tonight because of this situation here. But understand the accountability will fall on you as well. From here on out. You've lost the trust in your ability to check these trucks off. So we're all going to come together and every one of us is going to check them off together until I feel that we've earned that right to disseminate the responsibility to check these trucks off again. It turns out that the equipment was in the bag. He was just freaking out. But the, the conversation that we had there when I walked away to, to finish the report, they all got together and they were more disappointed in themselves than me scolding them. They were more disappointed That I, that, that they let me down. And that shouldn't be, I mean, I don't think that should be the tale of the story there. But what they understood after that was.
- [31:43]
B
That.
- [31:45]
A
The successes, everyone shares, the failure falls on the company officer. And the balance between that is to understand that you cannot take every success. And look how good I am because I'm here. You guys do well. You know, Jack O. Willnick says in his books that the success of his team is on them. But every failure, you better take it. Guys, I messed up. That was my call. Because in the end it is your call.
- [32:13]
B
It's funny as you said that you talked about Jocko Willink. I wrote one of his quotes along with cynics quote and they say this exact same thing. It's like you can take the leader formal, informal, doesn't matter. Could take credit if you want for everything that goes right. Okay, do it. You should also be sharing some of it. But you also must take all the responsibility when things go wrong. You're gonna take credit when things go right. You gotta take, or you gotta take the blame when it goes wrong. But that's what it's all about. It's talking about, it goes to ownership. You know, you hit home. It's like it's the leader's responsibility. Yes, it is leader's responsibility because it's everyone's responsibility. You know, you had the trust in your crew and because it will say in this case, if equipment was missing. It's not about a blame, it's about the responsibility and everyone sharing that responsibility because it goes to being prepared and about delivering service. And so it is key because a missing piece of equipment doesn't fall on the shoulders of one person, it falls on the shoulders of everyone. Especially if we're going to talk about ourselves as being a team, as a crew, right. In any team environment, in any team sport, you know, any bad play or wrong play or something fails, a championship team says we failed and a non championship team says that person failed. So and that's what we're talking about when we're talking about high performance is sharing the workload, sharing the responsibility. Humility obviously plays a factor in all that.
- [33:36]
A
Yes, definitely. And honestly, I look at it this way too. In the end, in our profession, who honestly takes the loss in that, it's not going to just necessarily be us, it's the citizen that we serve. And if you, that's how you should look at it. You know, I look at the fire service as the best insurance policy money can buy. We are the cheapest, most effective insurance policy a municipality has because when. When something happens, we respond immediately. Now, what. What you pay into it is what you get. If you're not going to pay into it and expect, you know, us to be able to.
- [34:20]
B
To.
- [34:20]
A
To fix everything, it's. It's not going to happen. But if. If you're paying for training, apparatus and good personnel, you're going to. You should get that. And that's our responsibility as leaders to provide that. That's the oath we took. Absolutely.
- [34:37]
B
Absolutely. Now, Cap, you went through an injury separated you from your fire department, right? And so you've worked hard over the last several years. Three years. Two to three years. Now, if I. If I understand that correctly, and you've been working your way back into the fire department, you mind sharing a little bit about that story?
- [35:04]
A
Yeah. In 2023, actually, on St. Patrick's Day, we were sitting at the kitchen table getting ready to eat dinner, and we get a knock at the door, and we had citizens say that they believe that their neighbor was burning something in the city. If we don't allow burning, and they believe that it's gotten away from them, could you please go out there and check it out? And they said, please keep this confidential. We don't want. We've been having issues with these individuals. And I was like, no problem. We'll go out there, check in on the radio, say, hey, there's a. We believe there's an illegal burn. We're responding. At the time when I pulled up on scene, heavy smoke showing in the seaside of the structure is actually outside of the structure. They were burning construction material in a pit. It got away from them. It set the grass on fire. It set a van on fire. It started setting the neighbor's fence on fire. So we had a duty to act, tried banging on the door to raise people. Nobody answered. So I said, all right, guys, let's go. On the D side of the structure, we'll make entry. There's a gate there, and we'll do what we got to do. As we cross through the threshold of the gate, two individuals were standing outside. I can only make an observation that they seem to be under the influence of something. You know, I'm not a doctor, so I can't tell you what they were, but they weren't acting normally. We start trying to do firefighting activities. One of the ladies came out of whatever trance they were in. They freaked out, started screaming at us and immediately opened the door and released a large pit bull. Thinking back now, if I would have stepped to the left instead of in front of my fireman, I probably wouldn't have taken an injury to my arm where it severed one of my nerves. And now from these three fingers to my elbow, it feels like it's sleeping, probably forever. My grip strength is not where it used to be. I used to be a very avid power lifter. I was at 226lbs weight wise, and I was extremely competitive in, in my sport. Without having that grip strength, I can no longer do that. It hit me psychologically, too. I mean, I was out of work for about three months, and when I came back, I wasn't in my right head. I kept feeling like that if this was an ego issue or if this was something I could push through this. At the time, I started realizing that me not being able to do my job correctly was putting my people at risk. So I decided to step back for a little bit. I separated from the department through my. At the time, the chief didn't like the fact that I was doing it. In fact, I didn't like it either myself. But I just. It just felt like something that I needed to do. I got a job as a private emergency manager for hospital system for county hospital system. And I learned a lot. I gained a lot of experience, a lot of things there. But in doing that, I realized that I am not made for the private sector. I love my guys. I love the department. I love knowing that my job as a firefighter is to be the light in somebody's darkest day. Even if it's just a little flicker of a flame, it's just showing up and just being a little bit of help. And I missed it a lot. So I got to thinking, what can I do? Obviously, running, being the bull in the china shop, Captain, the hard charger isn't going to get me very far right now because I. I just can't do that. So I changed my lifestyle up. I lost. I'm 165 pounds today. I have to run in cardio. I'm not a fan of that. But, you know, it is what it is. You know, you got to stay in shape. You got to keep doing what you're doing. I've changed tactics on. On how I operate, if you will. I've put in. About a year ago, I called the chief of the fire department, said, hey, I think I'm ready to come back. He welcomed me with open arms. He hugged me. I hope he watches this because he did hug me. And here we are. I'm a master firefighter right now and getting ready to test for battalion chief. I had the opportunity with my time in service and I guess the respect and accolades of my peer, that a lot of them have come to me and said, hey, you better test.
- [39:33]
B
So, wow.
- [39:34]
A
I have a few things preparing.
- [39:37]
B
Good for you. First of all, thank you for being vulnerable about that story. I did not know the extent of that story until you just said it, so thank you. First question I have on that is the choice you chose to step back. Why is that?
- [39:52]
A
Goes into the humility part of it. I don't want to be the one that hurts my people. I don't want to make, you know, we're all going to make bad decisions, But a bad decision based on experience and the information you have at the time, you know, the environment changes, that's acceptable. But me knowing that I had a flaw in me, I didn't have it in my head right, maybe. And I definitely. The injury to my arm, I can't hold a hand line like I used to, so I had to develop a new way to do it. Just recouping and regenerating the arm itself was something that I couldn't do while I was at work, you know, and then it was just reevaluating, retesting myself, weighing myself, and finding where I was found wanting. You know, that's the whole point of the credentialing aspect and how we got involved through speaking with the chief. I'm on a path of. I wouldn't say redemption, but I'm on a path of re. Immersing myself into.
- [40:57]
B
Learning.
- [40:57]
A
And that's where the stoicism comes into place. That. That. That's where I am right now. That's. It's just the exploration of. Of finding where I. I have deficiencies and where I make strengths. You know, the biggest thing I. I think for me was in the gym when I started, I was horrible at squats. So what do you do? You do more squats. You do. You do other exercises to get stronger at it. And that became strength. I hate using the word. That was a weakness of mine. That's not a weakness. Kryptonite to Superman is a weakness. You can't give Superman hundreds of, you know, milligrams of kryptonite, and he's going to grow a tolerance to it. That. No, it's a deficiency. Deficiency leg strength. I build up my leg strength. I. I had a deficiency in communication. So what did I do? I'm doing these podcasts with all these great individuals I'm going out and doing lectures now. I'm speaking on my book. I'm teaching classes. I'm reading books on communication. I'm taking classes at the local community college. I'm going back to my alma mater and speaking with them. I'm developing these deficiencies and turning them into strengths. And I'm hoping that in doing this, I get to promote this message of reinvigorating leadership and also helping my department out. And maybe, maybe I'll make the battalion chief position. Maybe my path is something else. Yeah. But whatever it is, I'm. I'm going to continue to move on.
- [42:26]
B
And press forward and loop and move forward. I love it. I love the, the drive. I mean, you're an inspiration. Obviously, you have a book and, you know, you preach, you go on the national stage, you obviously talk on podcasts. You influence people. It's, it's, it's very inspiring. And thank you. Another question I have real quick is the department welcomed you back, but also the people asked you to step up. I mean, that's leadership. Right? It's one thing if you're going to do something yourself and just say, I'm going to better myself and this and this and this. I'm going to be a leader. It's going to make me more effective. Yes, but it's another thing. It's another level when other people are asking you to step up, because that's leadership. Leadership is not leadership if people aren't following you. Leadership is not leadership if. If other people aren't asking you to step up. Right. If you're by yourself, you're not leading, you're on a walk by yourself. So a lot of. Some people in some departments would not welcome. I'm just gonna throw it out there. Would not welcome an individual back. And I'm not. Not saying this is right or wrong, but some people will look at it very black and white. Well, the individual is not there anymore. Well, the individual, if they step up and say, take a battalion chief role, that's taking away from the existing opening for the people that are here. So hats off to the people of your department and hats off to the fire chief and hats off to your department for welcoming you back with open arms, because that is inspiring all of. In it. Of itself. So that's admirable. I look forward to hearing the. The tail end of this story. When's the test?
- [44:02]
A
I'm thinking it'll probably be in March. When it dropped, we have our assistant chief, one of my dear good friends of mine, is retiring in February and it's just, you know, secession, how it goes. They're going to fill his spot and it's going to just move up from there. So one of the one just to touch on what you said there about the, the. My mantra is that anyone that comes to my table will eat. I want everyone to be successful and I think I, I hope that I live that. And people see that and that's why they welcome me back. And that's why they, they asked, you know, say, you know, not asked as much, but they said, hey, you better be doing this. It's not about me so much as it's about, I just want these people to be successful. Maybe I'm not the, the right person for that, but hopefully with whatever I'm doing will invigorate somebody to be that right person. You know, when I first got into this, I, I wanted to ride backwards forever. It was the greatest job in the world. It is. It really is. And my cat, my first captain basically threatened me, you better test for lieutenant. You better test for lieutenant. And I'm like, oh, trying to get rid of me. Either way, I guess, you know, either way it works out. But she saw something in me and it, it's, it's selfish of me not to continue to push forward. You know, Marcus Aurelius didn't want to be the emperor of Rome. And I'm not comparing myself to Marcus Aurelius, but to, for him to have that, that mindset of it's the duty for the common good of others. That, that's what I look at.
- [45:53]
B
Absolutely. And I think, I mean to talk about Marcus Aurelius, talk about, you know, whether it be stoicism, whether it talk about leadership, that's what it's all about. If you can place yourself in a position. Because I was the same way. Like I, I being an engineer, right. Firefighter, engineer, I thought was the, the best position in the fire service. I obviously promoted up to the ranks. But if you can be in a position to better serve others, to be in a position to put the organization in a better position, to become better, that is your duty and that is your calling. Because not everybody can. Right. Not everyone should be in a formal leadership role. That's not a bad, that's not a knock on anybody. It's not a bad thing. But some people will have that natural drive. Some people have, will have that literal drive. As long as you're using that energy and that drive for the right causes and for the right purpose, obviously. So in Your case, like if people are asking you to step up, and we'll just talk about in leadership in general, if people are asking certain individuals to step up because they know this person, their mind and their heart is in it for the right reasons, they will be able to positively make progress in this organization and in the. For the people, then, yes, we should be asking these people to step up. I'm going to ask this question. Mental wellness. You've been through a lot, right? From almost losing your arm to being taken off the line, out of operations, out of. You pull the thousands of firefighters across American fire service, and you were to say to them that you're no longer going to work in the operations division, you can't respond to calls anymore, we're taking you off the trucks. How devastating that would be to 99% of the fire service. You dealt with a lot. You've gone through a lot in the last three years, not just in the profession, but physically. Your physical and mental wellness was affected. How did you get through it? What helped you get through it? And most importantly, what advice would you give to others listening to on how to get over such an obstacle similar to the one that you went through?
- [48:11]
A
I still think that with the stride that we've had in the last five, six years for mental health, stigma in the fire service, a taboo, if you will, about not getting help, I'll be honest with you. I've been seeing a therapist once a week or since 2016. And it's not just from the injury. I mean, this is years later. But the way I look at mental health is we're a bucket or a vessel that can only. You can fill up for only so long. Eventually it's going to flow over and flow and, and spill out. Where it spills out is, you know, is. Is not in your command if it's, if it's overflowing. But if you have a place to where you can talk and get stuff out and empty that bucket out little by little, it helps in the long run. And I'm telling you right now, you need that in this service and any first responder service. And I think that if we started shining more lights and getting more people to step up and go out and get help, it would be beneficial. I got really lucky. I have a strong community of people that love me dearly. From Archie Cox, who was in my book, to a lot of the officers and chiefs in the department. My family, when they noticed me going down, they made sure I went there. There's a story in the Book where my good friend John Galloway brought me to the chief and basically said, you know, we know something's up with you. And this is. I've been yelled at by a lot of chiefs in my day, and this one hurt. The worst is because Chief Hill looked at me, he said, first off, I want to make sure you're all right. I was like, that's new. Okay. Yes, sir. I'm all right. You know, usually just getting browbeat, not by him, but the other chiefs. And he goes, secondly, I'm not disappointed in the man. I'm disappointed in the decision the man made. I'm like, oh, that hurts. He's like, do you not trust me as your leader? I was like, I don't. I do trust you, sir. Well, I don't know where we're going. It's like, I feel like you don't trust me because you decided. You almost made a decision that costs you your life. And everybody else. And everybody else would have. Would have dealt with the pain, would have shoulder the pain of your loss. Do you not trust me to come to me and ask for help or ask for a solution? And that. That hit me there. You know, he made sure that I got the help I needed. And like I said, I've been seeing a. A therapist for the last. Since 2016, so 10 years. And it's. It's reinvigorated me and knowing that I can do this job and it doesn't have to be. I don't have to just swallow it and bury it deep inside. You know, I know that a lot of us, we can't talk to our family members about the calls that we've seen or the. The nature of the things that we do sometimes. And like I said earlier, we don't get the end of the story sometimes. So the worst thing we see, the worst things never get a resolution to it. That doesn't mean it ends there. We take it home with us. We need to go out there, and you need to find somebody to talk to. We have a great organization in our department. We have a chaplain's corps and a peer support team. And I rely heavily on being able to talk. These are some of my best friends. I get to talk to them all the time. And it doesn't have to be about calls. It could be anything. Our organization, like, I'm sure every other organization has EAP and other places to reach out to, and they may. May or may not be the best. But having somebody in the community that you can go to and draw on is is extremely important. And I think one of my things that I'm doing now is I want to do one common good thing in the world a year as a resolution. I try to do one common good thing, and I'm starting small, but I'm on the community, the health and wellness community committee for my department. And one of the biggest things I want to do is, is to promote the wellness of our. It's not just physical wellness. It's mental, financial, and cultural wellness and brotherhood aspect of it and, and push those lines forward so our people know that they can reach out for certain things.
- [52:36]
B
So you're right. Mental wellness, although we've made leaps, I believe in the last 20 years in the fire service, we still have a long way to go. There still is a stigma. I too, have seen counseling since 2022, and I saw one for monthly, not weekly, but monthly. And I still see one periodically. Went through, you know, really rough time in my career and saw one for a year, and then now it's periodically. But as leaders, you know, we talked about having the influence at the table. We talked about having influence in the firehouse. Are we talking about counseling? Right. Like leading. We're talking about leading by example. Like, as long as we know that mental wellness is, you know, talking about it and, you know, seeking help is, you know, there's still a stigma. It won't change until we culturally change and starts with the leadership. And now we're not talking about just the fire chiefs, we're talking about the company officers. Right. Are we vulnerable at the kitchen table? Are we saying, I seek counseling? Here's how it helped me. I encourage others to seek counseling. Here's why. Here's how it can benefit you. And sometimes it's. And not even sometimes. Most of the time it's not about getting help because you're struggling sometimes. It's a lot of times it should be just about maintaining your. Your baseline. Right. And so we can recognize when you're off your baseline. Right. It'd be like the same thing as getting in shape. It's like if the only time you ever worked out physically is when the doctor told you were 55, 50 pounds overweight. I mean, that is a bad program. You should be working out physically so you stay in shape and maintain your physical wellness so you never seek that. 50 pounds overweight. Mental wellness should be taught, which should be, you know, thought of it in the same way. We shouldn't wait till we have a dump in our mental wellness and where we're struggling hard financially Physically, emotionally, and then we seek help. Because now you got to dig out of a hole. Why not just stay above ground, your entirety of your life and your career, and you'll be in a better place. And you mentioned, we talked about Jocko earlier. As leaders, it's not about telling someone to go seek counseling. It's about. And he didn't talk about counseling. Jocko talked about. It's about getting others to want to do it and recognize it on their own. That's leadership. And so from the aspect of mental wellness, it's like from a leadership standpoint, it's our job to have conversations, but getting other people to recognize that there is no the stigma, let's forget the stigma. Go seek counseling. It's okay, I do it, others do it. It's beneficial, it will help you. And so leadership, again, is about getting others to recognize those things on their own. And so other people can have buy in themselves and not just, well, I'm here just so you know, because my department told me to be here. You know, like the famous Marshawn lynch quote, you know, I'm from Seattle, you know, I'm just here so I don't get fined. You know, that's not what we want. We want people to be in those spaces intentionally for themselves. And so what would you. What's some advice that you'd give to, you know, young leaders regarding going through a struggle?
- [55:40]
A
Failure is always an option. And it's not the failure that defines you, it's what you do after that failure. If you're struggling, that just means you still have the ability to fight. That's when you stop struggling, when it's over. So identify that first and know that you don't have to have the answer. You just have to have the strength to go search for the answer. I like Jocko a lot, and I think he's a fighter. Him and, and David Goggins, man, they're something else. And if you can gain anything from them, it's just that always wanting or yearning for that fight to continue, you know, that's, that's the stoic principle is to. If one wants to sharpen the mind, one must first sharpen the body. And I think it's a holistic approach to that. For mental wellness, you will not be mentally well if you're not physically well or financially well or in a community that benefits wellness. So identity.
- [56:47]
B
Don't. Don't start.
- [56:49]
A
Looking at the symptoms and trying to cure the symptoms. Find the whole problem. You'll notice that just because you're out of shape or 50 pounds out of shape, something got you there. It's not just that you're lazy, something's bringing you there. So go on that self assessment and look and see how to find that you don't have to do it by yourself. You know, thing about therapy is everybody thinks that somebody's shrinking your head or that they're telling, they're going to put thoughts in your head to do something else. They're just a guide. You're going to do all the work, you're going to do all of the work. A good therapist is going to go, well, have you looked at it this way? Oh, I, I see. You think it that way. Why are you thinking that way? What brought you to that conclusion? And a lot of the time you have to, you have to be vulnerable enough to go, honestly, I just did it. I just reacted because I was scared. All right, well, now that you're in a nice environment and a training environment, a clean environment, you can be scared and not worried about some. Something bad happening. Let's go explore this. It's just like in training, firefighting is a perfect example of how to live life. If you go into life without experiences, you're going to get beat up pretty, pretty bad and on the job. Training in the fire service has its benefits, but it also is very dangerous. So there's a quote I remember when I was a training officer that was on the wall that said, let no man's ghost say my training has failed me. Go and put yourself in these laboratories, in these clean environments and test your mettle. Train yourself, train your mind, go speak to other people, challenge your beliefs. And I promise you that's going to better you in the long run. Absolutely.
- [58:41]
B
And going back just a little bit, you said something. So key is leaders don't just give answers to people. They help others find the answers. They help others come to conclusions on their own. And they're not just given the answer to a problem, they help others solve the problem. I want to, you know, offer up to the listeners because I'm getting myself a copy of the Calling, the Unseen Work of Leading well, so tell us where to find this book and tell us a little bit more about this. Can we find it on Amazon and.
- [59:12]
A
Yep, you can find it anywhere books are published or printed. You can get it on Amazon.com My publisher is Archway Publishing. Go to archwaypublishing.com barnesandnoble.com Any if you type in the Calling, the Unseen Work of Leading well, and type in my Name to get into the second reason I wrote this book. It's a quote I read a long time ago. It says a man dies three times in their life. The first time when their heart stops, the second time when we place them in the earth, and the third time when their name is spoken for the last time on the planet. My friends are in this book. I lost Archie Cox a long time ago. I lost a good friend, John Bowen, a long time ago. It's selfish of me on this aspect of it, but I'm just a man, so I'll be selfish here that when I'm dead and gone, this book will still remain and they're going to read their names. So I've immortalized my friends in this book, and I hope that the messages that they gave me, My giants are able to resonate to anybody. If it's just a sentence, a paragraph, or a story, if it hits them in their heart and they want to be better leaders, they're going to go out there and search for it. This book isn't about if this happens, then that. If A, then B. This is just a philosophy on what I've been through, what other people have been. I resonate a lot of older stories from great people. Ben Franklin, George Washington, Marcus Aurelius. I cannot compare myself to them. But what I did notice in reading their biographies and learning more about them is they all suffered from the same things that we do today. Self doubt, you know, a confidence issue. Are they making the right decision? But they all did something great because of it. I'm not a founding father, but I know that if I'm suffering the same crippling areas that they were suffering and they. And they did what they did, my life can be so much easier just from learning from their examples. So that's why I wrote this. Absolutely.
- [61:16]
B
Well, thank you for sharing that. And the calling again, the unseen work of leading. Well, how else can we find you? And, you know, you say you go around the country, you speak places. This.
- [61:27]
A
This year I'll be in North Carolina. SAFER Conference. That's in August 11th. I've got some other things that I've reached out to. Right now I'm speaking. I've obviously been doing podcasts and. And other things. I've spoken to some community colleges at the time. I'm just getting the message rolling right now. This is all new to me. So it's been exciting. Pathway that I know nothing about, and I'm treading this water for the first time. So it's exciting.
- [61:55]
B
That's Exciting. And just like all of us in the fire service, there was a day where all of us had nothing, knew nothing about the fire service. And here we are. So in your journey, I love that you got this venture. I'm excited and inspired by it. I will follow you, I will check up on you every now and then to see how it's all going because this is very inspiring and I'm going to get your book. For us to continue leadership conversations on this platform, I ask our guests to challenge somebody. I'll reach out to them, bring them on the show, share their perspectives on leadership. Is there someone you'd like to publicly challenge to be a future guest?
- [62:33]
A
I'm gonna give you two. One of them is going to be Chief Paul Conway. He's in Milwaukee. He's also the CEO of Conway Shields. I'm sure everybody knows the legend Paul Conway, but his outreach and philanthropy and just the fire service right now is second to none. And his message I want broadcast around the world. The things he does for our profession is outstanding. And just I got the opportunity to meet him and speak with him and he is a very humble servant to this profession. So I would say that the second would be, and this is going to be outside of the fire service, but still first responders, the boys of Tone Alert podcast, Austin and Matt, you really need to reach out to them. They are doing some amazing things. They're just starting out themselves. They're ability to just sit down and have a conversation is great. I love the fact that they. It's like talking to a bunch of brothers. You know, we had a great conversation and the work that they're doing to bring again mental health and wellness to the. To the first responder services impeccable and important.
- [63:55]
B
Absolutely. Wow. Thank you so much for, for sharing these individuals from Tone Alert podcast and legendary Paul Conway. So before we close today, what are your lasting leadership thoughts you want listeners to walk away with today?
- [64:14]
A
Don't be your own worst enemy. Ego will never outshine consistency. And do not be afraid to fail. Failure is the best way to learn. You know, it was Addison got a and I love this story. Thomas Edison was asked by a reporter at the time that, you know, it took you 20,000 different way. Tony, you failed 20,000 times to invent the light bulb. And Edison immediately spoke up. He said, no, no, no, I found 20,000 ways not to invent the light bulb. And in doing that, look at the things that we have nowadays. The electrical oven, probably the first led all these other inventions on what some would say was a failure. His. His change in perspective, his positive thinking and outcome drew us to where we are now in the electric age that we are in now, but also the drive to keep moving, you know, so look at that, you know, push forward and don't be afraid to fail. We're all going to fail. We're all going to mess up. It's just what you do afterwards that defines who you are.
- [65:22]
B
Thanks, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found today valuable, and we hope that we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.