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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 93: Paul Conway, Assistant Chief (ret.) - A Life Full of Mistakes
01:20:32
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- [00:02]
A
As I am passionate about positively impacting the world through my actions, I believe that this is achieved by following Christ's teachings and living each day with gratitude, humility, compassion, and love. And through my example, I hope to inspire others to do the same, creating a chain reaction of kindness and positivity that will spread far and wide. And that's it. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
- [01:09]
B
Good afternoon and welcome to the Kitchen Table. On the show today, we welcome Assistant Chief Paul J. Conway, a follower of Christ and married to his beautiful wife, Pam. They have four children, Jamie, Haley, Jesse, and Sarah. Additionally, he is a proud grandfather of three, Charlie, Sullivan and Hannah. With over 40 years of experience in the American fire Service, Paul retired as the Assistant Chief for the Milwaukee Fire Department. Throughout his career, he has been at all levels of several organizations in the fire service, including operational, tactical, and strategic operations. He has demonstrated exceptional leadership and management skills overseeing the emergency and fire services, private sector programs, resources, and staff. His experience leading and executing complex, multidisciplinary projects makes him well suited to tackle any challenge at any organizational level. In 1985, he founded Conway Shield, a business that aims to become the nation's leading provider of protective gear, safety equipment, and training. With his extensive fire service experience and passion, the company strives to be at the forefront of its industry, providing its customers with the highest quality products and services. Good afternoon, Chief. Thanks for being a guest today. How are you?
- [02:27]
A
I am fantastic. Thank you very much for having me here. I. I got to find out who that dude is because I got to hire him.
- [02:34]
B
I think a lot of us can use an individual such as that.
- [02:38]
A
Yeah, yeah, he's. I don't know who he is, but, man, it sounds. It sounds really impressive. I know who wrote that for me, and I always thank him every day, so. Thanks, Chris.
- [02:49]
B
That's.
- [02:49]
A
Yeah, no, it's. It's great to be here. You know what I mean? I just. Quite frankly, anytime. And you'll see this. When you get to this point in your career when somebody asked the old dogs to speak, kind of makes us feel good because, you know, it is. It was so much of our lives, and you guys have the. You guys have the calm now.
- [03:12]
B
You.
- [03:13]
A
You are moving forward and taking the fire service in directions that are well deserved. And so sometimes it's just nice to have somebody say, old timer, remember that time when you. Did you feed the horses? Just hay or oats and hay. So. So no, I appreciate being here.
- [03:30]
B
Thank you. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here. And before we dive into some of these topics, I really want to unpack, share a little bit about Paul J. Conway, and then we'll dive into leadership.
- [03:42]
A
Well, sure. First off, I'm a broken man. I'd like to sit here and tell you that I've had all the answers my whole life and that I know what's going on. And, and I, you know, I, I went to fires and came out with a baby in each hand and flames behind me, but, but the reality is that isn't the life I lived. I've made a lot of mistakes. I've learned from the most of them, I think. And, and so I guess I just want to say, I want to start with that, you know, this world and this job have a tendency to humble you. And in the last 40 some years, I've been humbled many times. So. So I want to start with that. Beyond that, yes, I, I have a wonderful family. I have an amazing wife who puts up with me and tolerates me every day. I have another grandchild on the way. So we will be. Expect we will have our fourth shortly. I love the American Fire Service. It's been part of my history. My father was a firefighter, my brother, myself, my grandfather, a volunteer, my uncle, a career firefighter out in Connecticut. So. Or I should say my great uncle. Sorry, I have nephews on a job and it just continues on. But it, you know, the fire service has done so much for me and I am deserving of none of it.
- [05:15]
B
So.
- [05:15]
A
Yeah, I mean, that, that's really it in a nutshell. I'd like to tell you all these great things, but the reality is I'm just a guy that's walking through life every day and trying to, you know, I'm at a point now where I'm trying to do good in the world. Maybe when I was younger, I, I wasn't all about that at times, but when I look at it now, I just want to. I want to do as, as they say with the tunnel, the towers. I just like to do good.
- [05:47]
B
Well, Chief, you said some very key things there. And this show can. Could go down the path of just. All right, well, what's leadership? Do you achieve and what does that mean? But I want to go down a different path in the sense that, yes, we'll talk leadership, but you said things like, you made a life full of mistakes, prioritization, and we're going to talk a lot about a bit about that. But first and foremost, the intro that you provided started off with being a follower of Christ and talking about your family. After 40 years of dedication to the fire service. I know you said when you're age 5, you knew that this is all you wanted to do. And even after 40 plus years and still going strong, you still say the most important thing to you is faith in your family. Talk about that.
- [06:33]
A
Sure. So the two kind of. The two kind of. To be honest with you, I didn't expect this, but I'm getting emotional. The two, the two are intertwined with each other. And I'll say that because as I said, I've made all kinds of mistakes. And, and every time I've had a, I've had a. My father, my heavenly father will always say, that's okay, sun's going to start, come up tomorrow and I forgive you. And because of this, this drive, this desire, this, this never ending, the job's got to be better. I have to be better. I'm going to be on the job. I'm going to go out and teach, I'm going to go to conferences, I'm going to be all of these things and my family will always be there and I'll always have time for them some other time and they understand. And as my life went on and it started to unravel, either by, well, by my own demise or my own being. And there's some reasons that have been really lows in my life. My brother, 20th of May 1994, he committed the, the brother I worked with on the job committed suicide on his way to work. And I decided that being in the bottom of a bottle was the place where I needed to be. So that put some great strain on, on my, my current wife and my family as it was. So my point, I guess is that I did spend a lot of time doing everything about the job because the family will always be there because that's how kind of how I was raised. No disrespect to my father. My dad was a guy who worked as a firefighter and worked two other jobs. So he was always gone. And my mother raised six children. So I, I kind of had that background of, well, that's what we do. You know, you a woman, raise kids. Me, I'm gonna do these things. And the reality is I was always, you know, I was born Irish Catholic, so I always was a believer in the Lord, but I didn't necessarily know him personally. And one day he came into me and one of my. He came to me on one of my worst days and said, I'm going to walk you out of this. And he did. And I never forgot it. And I might have slipped away a little bit here and there, but then one day he really hit me in the head. And I said, no, no, this. This guy's not kidding. He means it. And so I started to rethink a lot of things. And as I rethought my life past, I realized. And it literally came to me one night in the middle of the night, and I kind of had this breakdown and I realized that I can't change my past. So I got to stop worrying about what it was and how I, you know, what happened. I ended up being divorced after September 11th. I ended up getting divorced a few years after that. Again, I worked there. And I don't want to add my. I don't want to put myself on a group that were, that were there day in and day out, but it had some effect on me. And she just kind of. My ex wife, who I still, you know, love dearly to this day. And, and we get along great. We raised our kids despite being divorced and did a wonderful job, but that was enough. And. And through that, I realized that I can't. I got to stop looking backwards. I got to stop thinking about all the things I did or how I could fix them. And this just came to me. And it, it came to me then that look, he told me back then. God told me back then, Christ said, look, I've forgiven you, so move forward. And I had to take that truly to heart and say, from this point forward, I surrender everything forward to you. I lay it at your feet. And I will not look back. I will just look for today. Because life is today. Tomorrow is not promised to us, and the past is the past. So we have to live today because that's all we have. And that's kind of in order to wrap it up. That's kind of what happened to me, is that, that, you know, he always walked by me. And the days when I was, When I was really suffering, he picked me up and carried me. But at times, because we're human, we. We look the other way. We don't lean in. And, and through my family, I'm blessed that that relationship with Christ has only become stronger and, and, and really solidified. And I, you know, quite frankly, I talk to him several times a day. I talk to them all the time because I consider if I'm going to spend eternity with somebody. I'd like to get to know him.
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B
So.
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A
And through that, my family and everything has really come together where the other day my, and I'll, I'll end it with this. My grandson had a birthday party and sitting in the room are four grandmothers, all of them in a room full of love because nobody had the human condition of I don't like that person. That person. No, it was just genuinely just a whole room full of love. And that's because Christ was there. So, so I've been blessed that way. I, I didn't always, I didn't always do the right things. I certainly. You talked to my ex wife, she'll say I was no gem to live with. If you talk to my wife, she'll tell you I'm no gem to live with. But like I said at the beginning of this is, I just try to do. I, I try to do what's right from this point forward. And I know I will make mistakes and I know I will still fall. But, but they are, you know, they are family. Your faith in, in, in your faith in a, in something bigger than yourself. Your faith and for me in the Lord Jesus Christ gives me strength and allows me to do what I can to do the best for my family because we spend too much time. You know, when I came on the job, my brother told me I am 52083. That was my pension number. And he said, when you retire, kid, you will be 52083, no more, no less. And I thought, what do you know, you don't understand. I'm going to change the world. I'm going to make the Milwaukee Fire Department something unbelievable. Well, the reality is I came on at 52083 and I left at 52083 and somebody replaced me the next day. They raised their right hand, they took my chief of Ops position. And the Milwaukee Fire Department, believe it or not, has been going on for 150 years. And I was only there for 30 of it. And it survived before me and it'll survive God bless after me. And we need to remember that. And I'm not saying that we need to say, oh, let's just come and do go to work. We have to give it our all. People are depending on us. Their lives depend on us. But we have to also remember that there's a family at home that loves us and will be there for us. And we need to put them in a first priority.
- [14:23]
B
Well, thank you so much for that, Chief. Very inspiring. I too am a follower of Jesus Christ. Growing up did not, I kind of fell out of belief. Like, like a lot of young teenagers, young adults do have been more lately trying to get, you know, back into my followership, if you will. But you said so many important things that regards to not just faith, but also family. We had Mike Galliano on the show, if you might know him. Seattle fire. You know, did 30 some years in fire and, and the Air Force, but he said a lot. He was just on the show a week ago. He said exactly what you said about, you know, he said after 33 years of Seattle fire, he was done and Seattle was done with him. And it's not, you know, nothing against him, it's just they move forward and they are moving just fine. And you said the same thing. So I, I, I, I appreciate when, you know, people are saying similar things because it, it just means it's that much true. But it's also a challenge because, you know, individuals like yourself who did 40 years and wanted to be a firefighter from, from the beginning, you want to give everything you can and you do, but also recognizing that when you're gone, you, you are gone and it, that someone else will pick up the torch. And that's a good thing. But also, yeah, but also speak to the, to the individual about, you know, we talked about this when you and I had that phone conversation a couple weeks back about clocking out at 5pm like give it all you got when you're there, but be fully present when you go home. Because the hope is, is when you do retire, and Mike said this on the show a week ago, is that you do have a family to go home to. The last thing you want due to a long career in the fire service, only to come home to an empty house.
- [16:13]
A
Well, and I did that. I, I, quite frankly, that is what happened to me. And, and again, I'm, I'm truly blessed because I could dwell on the point that I lost a marriage to, to many things, but the fire service had had something to do with it. But the reality is someone else came into my life that became my, my partner for life. And, and Pam is, is, she's all I could ever ask for in, in a, in a mate. So everything happens for a reason. But that doesn't mean we go down a path of stupidity. I look at all of my children and again, I said, I can't look backwards anymore. So what was done is done. But I can be with them and do everything I can to make their Lives better and. And to be in their lives now because. Because fortunately, I didn't lose them. They didn't to them. They'll always tell me, dad, I don't know what in God's name you talk about when you say these things. I don't know what even what you're talking about. So sometimes we carry guilt that is just ours. The people around us didn't really notice it. The people around us didn't see that. But that guilt that you were carrying. So Mike is right that we have to remember. You know, and I think we said this about my son James, who runs my company, now runs Conway Shield. And for me, I was. If I wasn't working, I was out teaching. If I wasn't teaching, I was trying to run Conway Shield, which at the time was a much smaller company. And there was just me and my good friend Craig doing it. And I was always on the phone. I would go to the kids baseball games and I would be on the phone or you know, they gave us these silly little phones with everything in them and I answering emails and you name it. Now most of it was phone calls because back then there was no such thing as the Internet. But the point is, is that I was never there. I was not where my feet were. And my ex wife used to tell. Used to tell me all the time, can't you just be where your feet are for a minute? And I'd say, I am. What are you talking about? She goes, no, you're not. You know what? Did Jamie. Did Jamie strike out or did he get a hit? And I'd laugh to look and go, well, he ain't on base. I guess he struck out. Yeah, no, he pop fly. You don't even know what you're paying attention to. So now I look at my son who runs my company, and when it's time for him to go home, he goes home and he spends his time with his son and his wife. And come Monday morning, he start, he gets there and he gives 110% for the time he's there. And. And there is. It is expected of us to give our all when we are in the firehouse. But if you look at our job to say, if you really think about it, you're in a busy company. For Milwaukee, we worked one day on two days off when I worked in a busy company, I might be up all night. So I come home and the first day, what do I do? I come home. I used to hold my son James and Jesse, as a matter of fact, by the time Sarah was born, I. I was. I was. I didn't have these issues, but I would literally put on Barney, hold him and lock my arms with him in between them and take a nap, because I was that exhausted. So my first day was come home and go to bed. So then you get up and you spend your time. Some time with your kids, and the next day you have some time, but then you're already starting to gear. Geared up to go back to work again. And we, you know, we. It's very easy for us to get in a circle, are into this. This. Just this operational circle where we are never really spending any time with our family. And. And for me, I'll just speak for me, I always had this idea, well, you know, they'll always be there. Well, the reality is that's not true for many of us in the business, whether it be law enforcement or fire, that's not true. Family moves on. We lose our children or we lose. You know, don't. We don't lose them. Lose them. But they. They become disconnected and distant from us. Or our wives just say, you know, or our husbands just say, you know what? Peace. I'm out. So, yeah, it is. It is something that we. We need to start thinking about at least. My humble opinion is that put the job in perspective to what is important in life. And. And I know that we get sucked in, you know. Have you ever been. I've never been to any place where a bunch of electricians sit around after work having a couple of beers, talking about, oh, yeah, you know, I ran that 220 to that guy. That was something. Man, that was hairy. I almost had to put in four outlets. Yeah, they don't do that.
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B
But we do, right?
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A
Not even law enforcement does. Yeah, but we do.
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B
Yeah, it's. It's a challenge. But messages like this, Chief, when people are listening, is. Is where we need to ground ourselves and pay attention. And I say pay attention because we hear this stuff, but we hear it, but we don't really ingrain it into our actions like we hear people all the time. You know, work life, balance. Work, life, balance. I struggle with it, right? So I. I, you know, off work, off duty, I'm. I do other things too. I seek opportunities to teach. I seek overtime opportunities. I'm. But, you know, it's. It's. Try to find that balance. You mentioned. Firefighters have a lot of broken parts, but it's part of the job. It is a part of the job, but it doesn't have to be everything. And so It's. It's a constant challenge. And to those that are listening, I mean, continue to emphasize, like, how we can keep those priorities straight because we go through these ebbs and flows throughout our career, right? Like, say you, you know, you're a firefighter. You, you know, you spend your first five, 10 years on the job just spending all your time just getting after. Getting after it, you know, and then you promote, and then you have a new set of priorities. And then you, you know, say you start a family, another new set of priorities. But at the same time, you just took a second promotion and now you have all these assignments. You go to day shift, you spend time at the training division. So there's a lot of pressures. But what I want to hit home is, is being good about exactly what you said. Be where your feet are. If you're at work, be at work. If you are at home, be there for the priorities at home, whether it be with family or other. How do we continue to keep our priorities straight?
- [23:03]
A
Well, I'll start this by saying that, you know, I was young once too, and all the old timers would tell me things, and I would tell them they're full of crap. They don't know what they're talking about because I'm different. I'm different. My life's different. And the fact is, it's. That's not true. I should have listened to him earlier. So my first thing is that when guys like Mike or myself or whoever give you an experience from a career's worth of experience and are willing to tell you, look, dude, this is where I broke. These are the dumb things I did, we all will say, yeah, that's right, but that's not me. But the reality is there's truth to it. And. And I'd ask that at least you give it some consideration and maybe listen. So that's for starters. That's one. The second thing is, is be where your feet are also plays into our profession. Be where your feet are when you're working, because so many. And I really wasn't this way. I was a firefighter for 10 years before I became a lieutenant. I was a lieutenant for 10 years before I became a captain. And then after that, I kind of rocketed from captain to battalion chief to chief of operations. But be where your feet are, where you're working, too, because you can never go home again. And when I say that, I mean that, that you may have the best time in some of the best companies. I worked at a place, truck 11, with a crew of guys, truck 9 with another crew. Of guys, engine 13 with another crew. Three crews. Amazing people, great firefighters. Just a constant riot. Laugh from beginning a tour to end a tour. And there were times where I would say, well, I want to be a captain. So this being a lieutenant's pain in the butt, and I got to get to the next level. I got to do these, these other things. Well, I missed days with those people because I wasn't focused on being in the moment. I was focused on my next step, my next growth, my next gain, my this, that. I always wanted something better. I always wanted something different. I always wanted to be. No, I was never satisfied with where I was. And, and that carried over in not only my professional life, but it carried over into my personal life that if Conway Shield, for example, sold 100 shields, I want to sell 200. If it's sold 200, I want to sell thousand. If I was this at home with my wife, I wanted this. If it was that, I wanted this. It was a constant, never ending chase of something and never once enjoying the view. And I want you to. Everybody should think about this. If you have a child, you have 936 weekends till they're 18 years old. 936. You work 120 days a year. So take the 120, let's call it, you know, take 18 years that you're working those, those days. And when you start to look at it, there ain't a lot of time, my friend. Yeah, and they're gone. And they're gone. The job, as great as it is, will always be there, but your kids will be gone. Food for thought, man.
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B
It's true. Wow. Way to. I mean, I love, I love this conversation, Chief, because that's what it's all about. It's about providing that context. Because a lot of us will say, the listener base will say, aren't there yet. Meaning, like you said, we're all young at one point in our careers. Right. You know, but most of us, if not all of us at the end of it, will say, I should have listened to that individual earlier. Like what you just said. How many times do we find ourselves, oh, that guy was right. Or that guy was right. But in the moment we're just like, ah, that's not me. So we continue. We need to continue to hear these things because if we're. None of us is talking about this, and if none of us are reinforcing this, will never listen. And so speak on the. Be okay with being present and not worrying about the next thing or the next thing or the next thing.
- [27:38]
A
So I will. I. I can. I think I can sum this up easiest by saying this. I have a very close friend. He is the kind of guy that if I call him at 2 in the morning, told him to bring a shovel, he wouldn't ask questions. And actually, that's how we met. It's a long story, but it's kind of how we met. No, I didn't bury anybody but his family member. A boyfriend had dipped the. His niece in a tub of hot water and. And severely burned her. And I said, I got the weekend off if you want to roll. And. And you know what we would have done if he ever would have said yes? I don't know. But. But I was younger then and I was a little more. I didn't mind mixing it up anyway. And he said to me, he said, my friend, I've watched you climb mountains for the last 30 years. And every time you climb a mountain, you get to the top and you see another mountain, and before you even catch your breath, you run down that mountain and you start climbing the next. I've never seen you sit on the. I've never seen you sit on the peak and enjoy the view. I've never seen you sit on the peak and thank God for what you have, not for what you don't have. It's time you start. And I. It kind of hit me really hard and I thought about it and I realized he is 100% spot on. So two people that have not gotten to this point in your life like I have, I'm going to ask you, or I'm going to. I'm going to suggest that when you are climbing these mountains, whatever they may be, it may be you're going to instruct at a conference out by you. And in the middle of the conference, you sit back and you say, man, what a blessing this is, and how fortunate am I that I. And these are words I. I strongly suggest that people use that I get to be part of this. Not I have to. I have to go to work tomorrow. I have to go a detail on the truck. I get to. I get to. And if, if we start looking at life as each. We're climbing little hills and little. And we're climbing big mountains. Sometimes your. Your career may be a mountain, but you're gonna get into these peaks, stop and take a moment and enjoy it and say, wow, this moment I catch myself right now and I know people are gonna think I'm crazy. But I just start laughing and I smile, and my wife will say, what?
- [30:54]
B
What?
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A
What are you laughing at? I'll see. I can't believe how beautiful the world is today because I'm in it. Not because of me, but because I was given an opportunity to actually be part of it. And I don't take, you know, don't take little things for granted. I walk, I ruck every. I try to ruck five days a week. And there are days that I literally go, I don't want to do this today because I work out five days a week. And then I rck five days a week. And it's not a long ways. It's, you know, three miles, whatever. And I don't put. I used to rck with £90 on my back like an idiot. And those days are over. Now it's only 30. But. But my point is, is that the days that I don't want to. I don't say I have to go r. I say, I can't believe that God gave me two legs, healthy legs that I can use to go ruck. So I get to go ruck. And. And let's take our time. And it's tough, man. I mean, it's tough. We all want. We all want a lot of things in life, but I think that if we slow down for a minute, I'll sum it up this way. Let's slow down for a minute. When we reach the peak, let's enjoy the view and more or along with it, or just as important is that we are thankful that we get the opportunity to do it and to be there. And I think that if we do that, if we really do it, we will start to find ourselves living in the moment. We'll start to find ourselves. And it ain't, you know, it ain't gonna flip a switch. And you're gonna go from doing this to, oh, I'm living in the moment every time. And, hey, look, honey, we're living in the moment. Yeah, it doesn't work that way. But when you start saying things like, I get to instead of I will. And when you start taking moments, my. My wife Pam, she's also Miami Dade retired fire. She. She's the woman. When we go for a walk, she's the one that goes, oh, look at that butterfly. Oh, look at that. Look at that. What bird? What? Look at that mushroom. There's a. Whatever mushroom there. I'm, like, oblivious to the whole thing. I have no idea what even she's. Where. What. What are you talking about? But See, she takes the moment, every single moment, and she appreciates every single creature and every single living thing. And I've just, you know, I, I've sat with her now. We've been married for, I don't know, 13 years, something like that. Maybe 14 somewhere. But I, I catch myself that, you know, what if I act more like her? I don't miss the little things. I don't miss the little things that I would have missed prior. So I am where I, I am where my feet are. And, and, you know, that's my suggestion, fellas. You know, the world is going to go by in a blink. Our job is even going to go by faster. I mean, I've been off the job since 2014, you know, so we're looking at. No, 2012. I don't know, somewhere 2012, I guess. Retired in 2012. So I'm, I'm, I'm a long ways out. I'm over half my career. There's kids on that job right now that have no idea who the heck I am. And they're, they're looking at a halfway winding down their career. So it moves fast. Spend the time, Spend the time. Put a value system on what's really important. Because I tell you what, when I, I think I can. Let me speak for the guys I worked with, I had some heroes working for me, and they put their lives in jeopardy many times. I watched them do it. I watched them genuinely risk their lives for the people we served, including our brothers and sisters. So you don't have to be only that guy. You can be the. As I gotta think of his name now, he calls it the Warrior Poet. Be the warrior. It'll come to me. But it's a book called Warrior Poet. But be the warrior. Be that guy that will do anything, that gal that will do anything on a job. But when you're home, you're the poet, you're the father.
- [35:39]
B
Love that.
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A
You're the loving wife. I mean, the loving husband or wife, whatever. You know, you're you, you are the, you are the loving dad to your kids. You're not on alert. You're not, hey, this might be job down. Hey, what's this? What's that like? That's that. You put that aside because, you know, a good friend of mine, law enforcement, been all over the world chasing bad guys, and we often have. He's also, he's a couple years older than me, so his career is, is done. And, and, and sometimes we talk about being the, you know, he calls it the gray man, the guy that blends in, don't look for the guy with the tactical pants and the 511 backpack. That guy's a. I'm gonna say he's a goof and the people will get offended. But that guy's, you know, that guy you pick out of a crowd, he's not the one that's gonna hurt you. The gray man, the guy who blends in, that's the guy that will bring his A game if needed. So he always, so he always used. Maybe he's another good example of when he was off duty or home. He was home and he was with the people he loved. He wasn't back over in Bosnia. He was home. I should have listened to him a long time ago, but I didn't.
- [36:57]
B
Yeah, well.
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A
Wow.
- [36:59]
B
I'm going to sum up a lot of what, what you said, Chief, is it's a shift of perspective, right? And I've heard this and I love it because you said shifting a perspective from that. I get to do certain things. I get to be here. I'm fortunate to not, oh my gosh, I have to do this and that. It's, it's because we, we, we gain so much more appreciation and gratitude when we live in the. I get to do these things and I'm in this position to, to be here and I get to not someone's forcing me to. So I love that. Number two, I love what you said regarding put a value system on what's important. I love that. Love that. I mean, so many times we say things like, yes, that's important, that's important. Well, if everything's important, what's important, you know, nothing is important if you say everything is. And so when you say put a value system and really prioritize, you know, what are the most important things in your life and then also what's the most important? And forget about the ninth most important, at least for now. So a question I have here, Chief, is can individuals in the fire service make the impact that they want
- [38:08]
A
if
- [38:08]
B
they create this balance, clock out at 5:00 and put every. And put family and faith first and fire service third. And I hate to say first, second, third, and fire service third, because that's not what I mean. It's contextually, you know what I mean? It's, it's. Don't give the fire service everything you have on duty and off duty. Talk out when you're at home, be home. And can individuals make the impact they want when that's their mindset?
- [38:37]
A
So my answer to you, from my humble opinion, is you will do it faster. And this is why. Because when you treat it in with the perspective that it is, and I say this conversation, the fire service is a mistress that will never love you back. And you will give her everything. You will give your her. You will give her your physical ability, which means you will get injured, burned. You will give her your time. You will give her your love. You will give her everything. And when you do that, she will turn on you. And then you will spend your time bitter and angry because I didn't get the promotion. I didn't get the spot in training. I didn't get engine 13. I didn't. I. Everything I do for this job, I got nothing out of it. This is garbage. Perception then, affects your perspective. If you look at it and you balance it and you see her for what she is in that she is alluring, and she will drag you in and she will promise you the world. But again, she still knows you as 52083. If you look at it and say that, I will treat the fire service as something I care about, but I will not let it consume me. What will happen is you will have a positive attitude. You will push forward a positive attitude. People will recognize your positive attitude, and things will get done faster. Because what. It's the human condition. If I come on to your show and I sit here and I go, really, what you're telling me is bunch of garbage, you're going to start to get defensive right away. And I say this because in my fire service career, there was a lot of things in the Milwaukee Fire Department that I tried to change, some of them really simple. And. And I got resistance. And I got resistance. So if I take the approach that I did when I was a young man, because we all know better, if I take the approach where I rammed it down your throat and you didn't know better because you're an idiot, because you don't want to have your saws set up this way. You're a dope. Because I went somewhere and I saw in whatever this was better and I changed it. Well, you're going to. Especially if you're my superior, you're going to crush me. And then this whole bitterness comes and all these problems come where if I suggest things and I say, how about if we try it? Can we do this? We can do that. Even if they say no. Time is the only restraint in the American fire service. Nothing happens overnight. I remember telling a chief one day, I deserved it, but I said, Some things. And he decided to crush my soul. Deserved. And at the end of the conversation, I said, you know, the chief, the most interesting thing about this conversation is that since you are older than me, with 10 years on this job longer than me, you will be gone and I will still be here. And when I'm here, I will do what I wish. And that was sarcastic ass hat saying that. But the reality is, is that is how time works. And there are things that, as I went on, and I'll use. This is a very simple example. When I, When I was on a ladder company, we had two saws. They were both set up to be wood blades because we open roofs with a circular saw, with a, with a 14 inch Husqarana circular saws. We open 12, 12 pitch roofs all day, every day. That's what we do. But I said, why don't we put one with a force plantry blade and one with a roof blade? Nope. Not happening. Well, that's dumb. Doesn't matter. Not happening. There's not a, there's not a truck in the city, Milwaukee, that doesn't operate with now three saws, two of them forceful entry and one with a rough blade. It's 30 years. It's 35 years later. Things take time. And, and if you, if you maintain this perspective that we talked about earlier, that I get to. And you keep the positive attitude and you, you, you find the balance because you're not dwelling on it all the time, because this is, let's face it, you're not going to get everything you want in life, and those will grind on you. And I know, I see so many young guys now, and maybe they were always there, but they're not complaining. They just, they just feel like they're constantly being squashed. And, and again, dude, not all administrations are butt pies. And not everything stinks. And if you start to develop your, Your attitude, your, Your internal key, your internal focus starts to develop this thought process, then everything will be negative and you will carry a negative aura with you. But if you keep it in perspective and say, you know what? I get to go to work today, and today I get to put a New York roof hook on the rig and take it off when I get off shift because I think it's an important tool, but the captain hates it, but I get to do that. You know, it's just, it's. I think that you will find that the changes you want to see in your firehouse, in your fire service again, will come faster if your attitude is positive. And you stay focused on what it takes to get to the peak that you're of, the mountain you're climbing and get rid of the negativity. Because we will fail over and over and over and over again. But that's how we get better.
- [45:35]
B
Absolutely. And things take time. I don't think there's any truer words spoken in the fire service because it does take time. And sometimes it takes, it's struggle, it takes hurt relationships, it takes the toll on the people. But if we have a perspective, we'll say that things take time. Things can happen. But nothing happens when you bring negativity to the table. Because we know, right. Studying whether it be sports psychology or psychology in general, negativity is so much more powerful than positivity ever will be.
- [46:09]
A
Absolutely.
- [46:10]
B
So, you know, keeping that in perspective
- [46:12]
A
and you know, when we, when, when we first get together, you know, and, and I've made this change with my friends because they, you know, we, we believe in this. Iron sharpens iron. And if we start to go down that path of negativity and I start to talk about Joe and man, that Joe, what a. You know, that guy. Every time I see that guy gives me. They'll, they go, hey, dude, stop. You know, it's that, it's that old movie, what's with the negative five? Moriarty, you know, and we push that out and it's not that we say we live in this sunshine and rainbows and everything's great world, because I don't. Right. But it's like, don't let it in your heart. Don't let it dwell. Don't give it a place to stay. Don't do that. Love it.
- [47:00]
B
I love that. I mean, don't let, I even heard it that way. Don't let it sit in your heart. And wow, I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep that one. That's a good one.
- [47:09]
A
Yeah. Because you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's that thing they always to say. I, I remember when I was, I, I did when I was at a firefighter that one day he kind of cornered me at a department outing and he said, hey, Chief, why did, why didn't I get this? Why didn't I get this assignment? And I'm like, Well, you got to refresh me because quite frankly, I don't even know what you're talking about. He's like, well, you. Did I not get this? Because when, when I was a lieutenant and you were the junior lieutenant, you I kicked you out, and you had to go relieving to a different firehouse instead of working in your firehouse. What did this happen because of that? And I'm like, all right, let's be perfectly clear. You have no space in my brain. There's no rent in here for you. There's no apartment for you. There's no space for you because I live rent free in your head. You don't live rent free in mine. And this is the same thing, you know, it's. I'm going to go back to the beginning of what we started with. When you truly fill your heart with the Holy Spirit. He, the devil and the Holy Spirit can't, they can't coexist. They can't live in the same being. So he, he, he. He starts to protect this, build this barrier, and he starts pushing these things out of you. Takes time because the devil's a sneaky son of a gun, but it will start to push things out of you. And then you'll start to realize that there's no place in my heart for it. There's no place in my heart for, for. For holding on to grudges. There's no place in my heart to hold on to. The things that have happened to me, they happen for a reason. Accept them and, and move forward, you know? But I, I, I, I, I sum it up with this. I had a friend of mine. He was going to get a chief's job. The usual. Ah, you're pro. It's. It's yours, man. Yours to lose. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's in the bag. You got it. He didn't get it. Goes back to see, he gave everything he could to that mistress, and she turned on him. And he had nobody to blame but himself because he started believing the lies of, of, of everybody telling him he's got it and it's in the bag and all these other things. And he didn't say, you know what. What's in. What's for the good of our savior is what I will follow, whatever the outcome. And he started getting, as we all do. It's our human condition. He started kidding. Oh, no, it's mine, man. It's mine. No, it's not. It wasn't. And, and believe it or not, what happened? Oh, a different door and a different path opened. And he's better off now than he was then. But he didn't see it at the time.
- [50:09]
B
How important is that, chief? I mean, you're right, because we can dwell on what didn't Happen. But we always know, especially if you have faith, right. That things happen for a reason and another door will open is as. As long as you have that faith that it will. Because you're right. If you dwell on what didn't happen, your focus and your energy will always be on what could have been. And you're so blinded about the opportunities that are sitting there waiting for you to take. You know that those opportunities. Right. It happens all the time. Happens all the time. And some of us see it more plainly than others. And sometimes you just want people to see it. Yeah, sometimes people only see the negative.
- [50:55]
A
Yeah. Well, you know what? It's. It's. It's. Again, it. It goes back to our. It goes back to our human nature. And. And we just. Man, you know, it's. It's. It. It. The lies and deceit are so easy to follow. You know, it's what you spoke of earlier when we were younger men. And. Yeah, you know, we.
- [51:18]
B
We.
- [51:19]
A
Geez, women are really attractive when you're a young man. And. And we just start doing. We start following paths that aren't really good for us. And. Geez, you know, there's liquor available everywhere and all these other things. And. And. But the fact is those are. Those are truly their lies. And. And. And we stay focused on the good. We stay focused on where we need to be, and we stay focused on the idea that. I don't know why I didn't. I'm gonna.
- [51:47]
B
I'll.
- [51:47]
A
I'll say this one. So I was in a busy company. Nine trucks, busiest ladder in the city. They get work every day. I'm covering there. And the cat, the chief calls me and he goes, hey, so and so, just retired. You're gonna get the slot at. At Truck 9, Dan Shay was the battalion chief. I'm like, chief, that's awesome. So I'm excited. I'm. You know, literally, I go out, I make my own shield already. Truck nine, this is awesome. The orders come out, and I'm going, Engine 6, he calls me, he says, I don't know what happened. Somebody upstairs, meaning the administration, somebody upstairs kibosh this. All right. Now, at that point in time, I can say the job has screwed me, and I am going to be bitter and angry that this didn't happen the way it was. Well, as it turns out, Engine 6 is a slow company on the east side of Milwaukee. They. The community loves them. They are the firehouse from Leave it to Beaver. And I have a great time there. Amazing. I get reset because, you know, you Know what? It's like, you get your teeth kicked in for years and you got to get reset. And I get a reset, I find a love for life. My second son is on the way, things are awesome, yada, yada, yada. I happen to get in an elevator with a tour commander, our deputy chief, one day, and he says, paul, how do you like Engine 6? And I said, chief, you know what? I enjoy it. It's good break. He goes, yeah, you know what? You did such a good job for me that I thought you needed to go someplace where you could really get a. Get a good reset. And he pulled my name out and he moved me to there. Now think if I would have gotten an elevator. I said, yeah, Chief, you know, some butt pie screwed me over. And what I realized that that guy was really looking out for me. He saw how many years I spent in busy places and he wanted to give me a break. And right after that, I went right back to a busy place. But it was the. It was the perspective of what was going on. And at the time, God closed that door and took me away from truck nine. But he put me someplace that I was able to literally reconnect with my wife, reconnect with my family, have another son on the way, have all these wonderful things, and then go right back into. Was always there. I just had to. I just had to take it.
- [54:33]
B
And how many of us don't take that perspective? You had that perspective and appreciation because your mindset was there and you took it as, okay, this is where I'm at. Where a lot of us will be dwelling on for weeks and months. I should have been xyz, should have been this. I don't know why this. And we never would have capitalized or appreciated what was. Because at the end of the day, you can't control what would have happened.
- [55:02]
A
No. And you know, and maybe part of it was my father's. My father's insight was always orders are orders, you know, that's your order. That's your assignment. Make the best of it. Quit bit. Quit. Quit crying. Yeah, that's an order. You know, you got an order. Make it. Make it. So. Yeah, and. And that's how I did it. Yeah.
- [55:25]
B
But.
- [55:25]
A
But yeah, you know, I mean, you never know. You never know what doors open.
- [55:29]
B
Exactly. I want to ask this question and see where it goes. It's really two questions, but I'll ask the first one right here. As you talked about a life full of mistakes. What's one thing in your 40 plus year career in the fire service or not even just the fire service. One thing. If I had to hold you to one, what would you have done differently and why?
- [55:54]
A
Personally, I can. I got so many. We'd have. We'd spend the next hour, I bet. But in the fire service, there are two times that. In all of the time I was working, there are two times I wish I could have taken things back. First one was real simple. I just hollered at a guy, and I really lost my cool. And I should have never let. I should have never let my temper take control of me. But the second one, and the one that is the most critical, the one that truly haunts me to this day, is that I. We had an incident. I'm a battalion chief working fire. People trapped. And. The truck gets in there and they locate victims, and they. And I. And they said, chief, I think we're going to keep them in place. And I'm like, if they got a chance, bring them out. And he says, chief, I think I says, lou, bring them out. I'll bring them out. Well, he brought out a mother, and he brought out three children. And the children. The children had bags over their heads, and their throats were silly. And I put them into a paramedic unit. The three kids. The mother went in another rig because she is a long story, but the mother went in another vehicle and they were pronounced on a scene, and the paramedic had to stay in the back. He sat in the back of that rig watching those children, and we had an after action and blah, blah, blah. You know, we talk about all the fire and everything else. He comes to me and he says, you son of a gun. Little stronger words. You left me in there. You left me in there for hours to stare at those children. Hours. You never thought about relieving me. You relieved the crews. You took care of everybody else. You left me in the bright lights in the back of that med unit to stare at those children, you son of a. And all I could think about is, oh, my God, if I could take that back, I would change it in a second, because I didn't think of them. I thought about everybody else but that paramedic sitting in there babysitting those three children until the medical examiner could arrive. If I could take that one back, I'd redo that in a New York second. So there. That's it, man. That's the one that really hit home with me. Yeah.
- [59:07]
B
Wow. Wow. Yeah. No, I. I have no words to. To describe what I feel just hearing the story. So What I'll ask your chief is the theme. And a lot of what we talked about today is, you know, I didn't hear it specifically, but, you know, but I heard it as humility as well. Because we make mistakes up and down the chain of command, right? From firefighter to the fire chief. We make mistakes along the way during our careers, no matter what seat we sit in, no matter how many years of experience we have. But none of that was intentional, right? Like if, for example, we make decisions on the fire ground, in the fire station, we make decisions, and sometimes more, some more hastily than others, but we're all trying to do the right thing. We forget things at times, right, wrong, or indifferent. And so what's one thing that you would suggest for individuals to not just learn from the story that you shared, but to put ourselves in the position to create that ongoing awareness. Awareness, if you will, to. To write. Because the decisions that were happening, say, on real time, were the decisions that were being made not because of any intent, but simply because that's what played out on the day with the pressures and, you know, the situation at hand. But we can't train, if you will. We. We prepare ourselves the best we can for as much things as we can, as best we can, but we also have to have a little bit of humility as well as we're learning as we're making decisions. And so what's one thing that we can all do to say, you know what? Put yourselves in these positions to make better decisions, if that makes sense.
- [60:55]
A
This is what I would tell people. Listening. Be a good leader. First off, you have to be able to lead yourself. So you start there and you learn how to lead yourself, meaning that you start doing the things you don't want to do. You start learning about yourself, who you are, what type of person you are, what you like, what you don't like. And then you start to lead yourself. And the neatest thing about that is nobody knows you're doing it but you. So if you make mistakes, nobody's aware of it. So once you adapt to be able to lead yourself and. And know who you are, then comes to be a good leader, you need humility. You. You know, when we instruct, one of the things we talk about is that as a new officer, you think you're the tip of the spear and you're going to bring the aame. The reality is we're more like a bowling ball with spikes. Whereas when we get somewhere and we see a scenario, maybe a pin job, where you look and Go, how did this happen? And you're, you're truly, you're the officer, and people look to you and, and they go, what do you want to do? And you go, you know, you want to tell yourself, I don't know, I've never seen this. But yet one of your, Your, maybe your chauffeur or your senior or your junior person go, hey, Lou, how about if we do this or do that? Because I saw this once, or I did this, I did this. And so you take that. So you, you have, you know, these four or five points on a bowling ball that give information into the center, the nucleus of the ball. And then as a decision is made, you make it as the company officer. And if it's wrong, you live by it and you take responsibility for it. And if it's right, you praise your people for doing an amazing job. So you have that humility to think that way and then also have the ability to tell people when you're wrong. You know, trust, Trust. Trust is gained by having mutual associations. And, and, you know, you're in a firehouse together, you're doing these things together, but you. It's also gained. And it's gained quicker by having the ability to tell people, I was wrong. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I didn't do that. Right. Whatever it is, because when they, when you open up, when you get to it, you know, let's say you do a hot wash, you get a. You know, not a formal after action, but just a fire. And, hey, what happened here? What happened there? I used to hate them. I think they're the dumbest thing in the world. And not. As I. As I grew, I realized that they make all the sense in the world because you only knew what your vision was at the fire. You didn't know what the OV was doing. You didn't know what the roof crew was doing, and everybody got an understanding of what they did. So you learned how to do better. But if the lieutenant or the captain or the chief, battalion chief says, hey, fellas, I made a mistake. I screwed up there. I should have had you guys take a big line. How do you think the junior person feels? Because now he can say, oh, yeah, you know what? When I was stretching that line, I tripped twice. Yeah. And he can say it because he feels better. He or she feels better. You don't start with the bottom. You start with the top. So have that humility to be able to tell people when you're wrong. And then lastly, and I think most important Is never stop with introspect and reflecting on you, on what you did, on how you can be better, on how. Oh, you know what? I really shouldn't have done that. Or, you know what? I, I, this is, this is. I should have done that. And, and, and learn from it and move forward and, and think, you know, I, I think one of the biggest things we do is we get caught up in our own heads. We don't take the time to see the world from somebody else's perspective. You and I just met each other. Yep. I know you came from a different background than me. I'm sure of it. You know why? Because we're two separate individuals. Yeah.
- [65:34]
B
Yeah.
- [65:34]
A
So I should be able to take time to look at the world through your eyes and see what you're thinking and learn. Ask. Flat out, ask, hey, man, what do you give me your perspective on this because it will help you grow as a human being. The problem I think we have today is we spend too much time swimming in our own ponds with our own school of fish. Yep.
- [65:57]
B
Yep.
- [65:58]
A
We don't look at everyone else. Yeah. You know, and I, I'll leave with this. Or I'd like to wrap with this rap. No, I'd like. I, that, that there's three things my father taught me. And I. And I. And I lived by him. And that's, you know, in order to be a good leader and in order to do well in life, you have to believe in something bigger than yourself. My father was a young man, he was fighting the Japanese halfway across the world. Young kid from Brooklyn. And, and, but he believed in something bigger than himself. So you have to have that. That's the truth. You believe in something, there's only one truth. And believe in something, that truth has to be bigger than you. And then you have to have the integrity to know the difference between doing the right thing and the right thing to do. And, and that's where. Knowing others, that's where understanding different thoughts, different way people were raised, different cultures, different everything that comes into the firehouse on a daily basis. Where the year. The official opposite, sir, the official leader or the unofficial leader is that you have to understand all of these things. And you'll be on a run or you'll have something happen in a firehouse. All or just life. That there is doing the right thing, meaning this is what the book says. And then there is the right thing to do. And I can tell you, you know, we. When I was assigned to an engine company, there might have been times where we literally Assisted people home. Home because they just had too much to drink. Now he'd say, come on, man, get in the rig. And I'd drive him home. I tell, I'd tell a guy's, Drive him home. Now, with that comes the responsibility, which is the last one, and that's. You have to have the courage to risk everything you have for the truth, for something greater than self. So I wasn't going to say if I, if, if somewhere along the line, somebody would have seen us taking somebody who had had too much to drink back to their house. And I, I understand there's all kinds of things to be said with that. Well, he could have died. He could have this. Yeah, he could have. But it was, to me, it was the right thing to do. It was doing the right thing. So if. If something would have happened, I would have taken sole responsibility for that. Not my crew, not the driver, me, because I believed it was that important. So have that faith in something bigger than yourself. Have the discernment to know what is doing the right thing and what is the right thing to do or reversed, and then obviously have the willingness to give everything you have, to lose everything you have for number one for believing in something bigger than itself. And if those things, if you do those things, you stay humble. You. You start leadership with yourself. You stay humble, you reflect. You have introspect to who you are. You take ideas and opinions from others, from other cultures, from other ideas and other backgrounds. You bring those all together, and you live by those three things. Yeah, you might do okay, Might do
- [69:22]
B
okay, Might do better than okay.
- [69:25]
A
You might fall flat on your face like I did, but you might be okay.
- [69:28]
B
It might be okay. Before we close that, Chief, would you mind sharing your personal mission statement?
- [69:33]
A
Sure. My personal mission statement is I am passionate about positively impacting the world through my actions. I believe that this is achieved by following Christ's teachings and living each day with gratitude, humility, compassion, and love. And through my example, I hope to inspire others to do the same, creating a chain reaction of kindness and positivity that will spread far and wide. And that's it.
- [70:07]
B
That's it.
- [70:07]
A
Do good.
- [70:08]
B
Do good. Do good. Thank you, Chief. I appreciate that. The last question I have before we do the leadership challenges, going off, your personal mission statement, which is full of inspiration, I'll say, to say the least. But you have your own personal mission statement. I would challenge everybody here today that's listening to, you know, what are, what is there, what is their mission statement? So how important is it, Chief, that You have that personal mission statement for yourself, but also that every individual knows what they stand for.
- [70:39]
A
Well, I live by it because I'm weak and. And I have it so I can look at it every single day. When I get up in the morning, when I go up to. I'm fortunate. I'm blessed. I live on a farm, and I have a outbuilding that's heated, and my gym is up there. And when I go up to the gym, I have this old chalkboard that was from a schoolhouse, and on there, I have live a life of servitude. I have all glory as the Lord's, and I have burned the boats. There's no return. And it's. Because every day when I go up there, on those days when I have to, I don't get to. When those days come, I go up there and I look at those things and I say, yeah, no, that's. That's. I live with a heart of servitude. So get after it, because that's what the Holy Spirit expects. So make it happen. Quit crying. And when it's hard, I say, well, you know what? Burn the boats. There's no return. We're not going back. So. So I have to have these things all over myself because. Because I'm weak. I. I. My flesh is weak, man. And. And I. I need these inspirations all the time. And I have that core group of iron sharpens iron that we can literally carry on these tough conversations, these conversations that. That sometimes are. Are literally cut to the soul. You know, they're bringing out things that. This is how I genuinely am feeling inside, and I need to get it out of me. So I think, you know, if you're a guy that, you know, I'm certainly no Jocko Willink or anything like that, but if you're a guy that. That, you know, wants to do well, just for me. Yeah, I think it's important to have a mission statement because then, you know what you stand for. But the reality is, you know, like our Milwaukee Fire Department mission statement, the original one or the one that I came up under was like four paragraphs of we'll do this and we'll do that. And. And I forget what chief did it, but anyway, he turned it into, we'll provide humanitarian effort to the citizens and the visitors of the city of Milwaukee. So we. We will provide humanitarian, need aid, needs firefighting, ems, pushing your car out of the ditch, whatever. That's what we will do to the citizens of the city of Milwaukee and the visitors summed it up. So make it short, you know, I mean, you look at what was Coke's mission statement? Beat Pepsi.
- [73:25]
B
Ah, that's right. That's it.
- [73:28]
A
That's it. Be Pepsi, man. So, so, so it, it can be simple and be moving.
- [73:33]
B
Yeah. Simple, memorable, but also action oriented. To where? I mean, what mission statement is a mission statement if you forget everything that's in it? It's got to be something that you can stand by every day, remember it, and just be action, action oriented so you can put it into play.
- [73:49]
A
Correct. And, and for me, I take what I gave you and I literally turn it down to just, I will be positive today and I will impact the world in a good way. That's how I, you know, that I, I will be positive today and I will impact the world a good way.
- [74:03]
B
And I mean, what, what more do you need if that's your, your mindset, getting up and going after the day. Right. Spreading positivity and having positive influence on yourself and others.
- [74:12]
A
Because, because today might be my last day, I get to do that. Yeah. Yeah.
- [74:19]
B
Well, Chief, thank you so much for, for spreading the conversation here for the last hour and 20 minutes or so. We're obviously here today because of the leadership challenge. Right. Other individuals, as listeners know, I don't challenge individuals because my short and small list of individuals that I know is we would have ran out two and a half years ago. But I thank you for taking up the challenge of one of our previous guests and spending the hour and a half with us to help talk about your perspective on leadership, the fire service, on priorities, on faith and family, and everything else that we talked about today. But before we close, officially, the only way we can continue this show is by challenging others. So I ask, is there an individual or two out there that you would recommend or like to challenge to be on the show in the future?
- [75:09]
A
Well, there, there are. Actually, there's a couple that come to mind, but really the one that, that I think would really be good for your listeners to hear is Battalion Chief Ryan McNulty, Milwaukee Fire Department. He is a plank owner. We, we established rescue companies. You know, we talked about earlier about 19. We talked about in the early 80s about establishing rescue companies. They were established in 2000 and 12. That's how long it took. Brian was the captain of rescue company too. He is the plank owner. He did 10 years there and then became a battalion chief. And I think Brian is one of the most dynamic leaders in the fire service today. And I say that because he is also one of the Most humble that I've ever known. And therefore it is hard to. You have to like pull teeth to get him to do things because he doesn't feel it's his place. But he is genuinely one of the true leaders in the American fire service. And I will tell him that he's gonna. Gotta get on this. And the other guys that I would have, be honest with you, they're. They're mentors of mine that they're just. They're just. I don't want to. I don't know how to put it, but I was watching Sean Ryan interview a guy from a Vietnam special operator, and his conversation was like, so what'd you do over there?
- [76:46]
B
Stuff.
- [76:49]
A
And these guys, these mentors that I had of mine, you could bring them on a show and it'd be like a five minute show. Kid, what do you want from me? That's how things are, you know, so. So I love it. It wouldn't work well, but Brian, I'd certainly try.
- [77:05]
B
I would.
- [77:05]
A
Yeah, no, it's. It's funny because, you know, it brings back to what we said earlier is the humility of these men.
- [77:11]
B
Yeah, this.
- [77:12]
A
This guy was a MACV song. And. And he just. What he did in life was his. Just his way of life. And. And there he did that. He had nothing to talk about. And it was funny because he was like pulling. Just pulling questions out of him and a guy be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, what? Well, yeah, okay. We took on, you know, anything. You got to be kidding. Anyway, so Brian. Yeah, Brian is. Is. Is. Brian is certainly worth. Worth having on the show.
- [77:44]
B
I appreciate that, Chief, and I will
- [77:46]
A
get you his details.
- [77:47]
B
Awesome. That was my next point. I appreciate that and I thank you for humbly leading us into a future episode. So before we officially close here, Chief, I want to say, number one, thank you for taking the time. Obviously, you're a busy man. You do. You still contribute heavily. You have your priorities and you have a great message to share with the listener base that we have here on this podcast. I just want to say thank you for. For that. Before we officially close, I'll give you this opportunity. What would you like to leave the listeners with before officially closing today?
- [78:21]
A
You're part of one of the greatest jobs that was ever put on the face of the earth. Whatever fire department you're with, you're charged with the mission of protecting others. We can go back and forth on what that really means. I know the American fire service can be many different thoughts on that, but you are genuinely showing up on people's worst day. And you are their hope and their light. You are sometimes the only thing standing between them and tragedy. And that doesn't mean just fires and everything else. It means everything we do. It means our EMS work. It means. It means our humanitarian work. It means all of it. So treat the people you serve, courtesy and kindness, as you would want your own to be treated. I had an opportunity once. I forced the door at a exposure building, and my aunt was. It was her home. And I didn't realize it at the time, and I helped. I assisted my elderly aunt out of her. Out of her house. And it was a reminder to me that. That it can be our own anywhere. So treat them that way. Have humility. But remember, no matter what the job does to you, no matter the problems you may arise, they are temporary. They are a moment in life. And we are honored and privileged to be part of the greatest service ever. Period. Don't forget it. Don't let things beat you up. Stay positive. Stay focused. Do your best.
- [80:18]
B
Thank you, everyone, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope that you found this time valuable. We hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.