Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Ep. 94: Chuck DeSmith, Deputy Fire Chief (ret.) – Resiliency & Peer Support

Host: Berlin Maza
Date: March 17, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features a rich conversation on the frontlines of first responder wellness, resiliency, and peer support. Retired Deputy Fire Chief Chuck DeSmith shares hard-won insights from 35 years in the fire service, focusing on building a healthy culture that sustains emergency professionals through the personal and professional challenges of their career. Co-hosted with Skyler Nagorski, a veteran and clinical social worker-in-training, the discussion spans the importance of authentic leadership, the evolution of peer support, addressing burnout, the realities of EMS work, and transformative approaches to resilience both on and off duty.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Foundation of Healthy Leadership

• Authentic Leadership:
  Skyler praises Chief DeSmith for his authentic, people-first style—equipping, listening, and setting “left and right boundaries” (08:50), providing autonomy with support.
• “Long Leash” Leadership:
  Chuck empowered capable team members rather than micromanaging, rooted in his own competence (09:00).

2. Boundaries and Balance in the Fire Service

• Struggle for Balance:
  Chuck describes the challenges in separating work stress from home life, especially when “we didn’t have anybody to teach us boundaries” in the 80s and 90s (16:44).
• Buildup of Trauma:
  Over-reliance on overtime (vs. healthy off-duty side jobs) leads to compounding, unresolved stress that “keeps it going. And the stress... is something I’m really understanding now what it's doing to my health.” (18:52)
• Self-Awareness:
  Understanding “why we even chose this work” and the impact of hypervigilance—good for the job, hard to turn off at home (17:16).

3. Peer Support: From Program to Culture

• Peer Support Evolution:
  Early programs were chaplain-led, which addressed secondary trauma more than primary trauma. Now, peer support is run by first responders, for first responders, and is embedded in the department’s culture (20:37).
• Organizational Commitment:
  Don’t treat peer support as a ‘program’—integrate it into the operating budget and policy, so it outlives individual leaders (26:03).

  “If peer support is important, you make it part of the budget and then you add, not only budget, you add policy. Policy outlives us as people. We retire, we move on. Policies are there...”
  – Chief Chuck DeSmith [26:29]

• Decompression Breaks:
  Formal policy allows crews to take 30-60 minutes to decompress after a difficult call, modeled after “tailboard talks” or hot washes (28:24, 35:36).

4. Tactical Readiness & Resilience (TR2)

• Hot Wash/Tailboard Talks:
  Just as post-incident reviews help learn from the tactical side, similar debriefings for tough calls allow facts-based processing before emotions spiral (31:44, 33:54).
• Normalize Emotional Check-ins:
  Everyone reacts to trauma differently; open discussions reduce stigma and create space for individual needs (33:45).

  "It doesn't mean we're getting touchy and feely... We have to be ready."
  – Chief Chuck DeSmith [33:54]

5. The “Dirty Little Secret” – EMS Ownership

• EMS is Core, Not Peripheral:
  Chuck argues for full ownership of EMS as integral, not a “side hustle.” 80% of calls are EMS, yet it often gets less attention and resources (39:03–40:41).
• Purpose and Burnout:
  Chronic, unsolvable calls (e.g., cyclic 911 use) erode job purpose, the “rekindle” effect that “kills our soul as a firefighter” (44:26–48:55).
• Reimagining Purpose:
  “No fire has ever thanked me. ... EMS is another human. It's our big human to human. And we can't lose sight of that, can't lose sight of human dignity.” (58:09)

6. Building and Modeling Resiliency

• On & Off Duty:
  Resiliency isn’t built solely at work. Chiefs and organizations must support the full spectrum of well-being: financial, relational, physical, community, spiritual, etc. (50:00).
• Actionable Support:
  Examples include financial workshops, family counseling, wellness retreats, and peer-led initiatives (52:55–55:50).
• Healthy Off-Duty Community:
  Supporting group outings and connections outside work boosts return-on-duty performance and wellness (54:52).

7. Listening to the Next Generation

• Value Young Voices:
  With half of fire service staff under five years’ experience, incorporating their input is essential (61:58–64:05).
• Empower, Don’t Enable:
  Allow pathways for young leaders to propose ideas, teaching budget, policy, and the realities of leadership (“It’s not a bad idea and it may be a no for now, but I don’t know, maybe we do move towards having saunas...” [64:05]).

8. Proactive Organizational Health

• Retirement & Health Benefits:
  Loss of “firefighter health insurance card” and increasing out-of-pocket healthcare is an urgent, under-discussed issue for active and retired firefighters (76:14).
• Parity with Veterans:
  Chuck advocates for police and fire retirees to receive support commensurate with their “tour of duty” trauma exposures (79:10).

  "Think military, think of the support we want for our vets. Think of police and fire like vets."
  – Chief Chuck DeSmith [81:32]

9. Action Steps and Advice for Leaders

• Know Yourself:
  Leadership starts with self-awareness: core values, emotional intelligence, and humility (70:31).
  • “You’re testing someone. You’re not learning (through a promotional process). ... Leadership to me is about influence and it’s not always what you say, but how you make someone feel.” (70:31)
• Kind vs. Nice:
  Be kind for its own sake, not for external validation (73:54).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• (09:00) Skyler Nagorski:
  “[Chuck] gave a long leash… because I think he felt that he was competent. He didn’t have to micromanage us because he had set the tone first.”

• (16:44) Chuck DeSmith:
  “We didn’t have anybody to teach us about having boundaries… so we really didn’t have a good, healthy, active life with that.”

• (26:29) Chuck DeSmith:
  “Don’t treat [peer support] like a program… Policy outlives us as people.”

• (33:54) Chuck DeSmith:
  “Tailboard talk… is a kind of a brain shift for people to do that with a traumatic call… process facts. Because if we don’t, we’ll go to the negative.”

• (39:03) Chuck DeSmith:
  “For some reason we always call it the fire service. … Should we be EMT firefighters? What if what we’re doing the most should be up front?”

• (48:55) Chuck DeSmith:
  “That’s what kills our soul as a firefighter. That’s the rekindle, that’s the bleed that keeps bleeding. It doesn’t stop.”

• (52:54) Berlin Maza:
  “It’s never just one, right?” (on firefighters going for a beer)

• (58:09) Chuck DeSmith:
  “No fire has ever thanked me… EMS is another human. It’s our big human to human. And we can’t lose sight of that, can’t lose sight of human dignity.”

• (70:31) Chuck DeSmith:
  “Leadership to me is about influence and it’s not always what you say, but how you make someone feel.”

• (73:54) Chuck DeSmith:
  “Being kind is doing it just because it’s the right thing to do.”

• (81:32) Chuck DeSmith:
  “Think military, think of the support we want for our vets. Think of police and fire like vets.”

• (87:30) Chuck DeSmith:
  “If we’re really doing it best, fires, when they never start. If we’re really doing that… Should calls actually go down?”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Peer Support & Decompression:
  [20:37–38:17] Early days of peer support to current policies, decompression breaks, tactical readiness, and modeling for others.

• EMS vs. Firefighting Job Purpose:
  [39:03–49:36] Why EMS must become central, job satisfaction, the psychology behind “we need a good fire.”

• Resilience & Off-Duty Wellness:
  [50:00–56:15] Teaching, supporting, and budgeting for resilience as a core organizational principle.

• Listening to Young Members:
  [61:58–68:35] Generational change, empowering new leaders, and navigating tradition/innovation.

• Leadership Advice:
  [70:31–76:04] Core values, self-awareness, humility, and “kind versus nice.”

• Firefighter Healthcare Benefits:
  [76:14–81:32] Historical context and current challenges in firefighter healthcare, advocacy for better policies.

Actionable Takeaways

• Senior Leaders: Make peer support part of core budget and policy, not a grant-funded, at-risk “program.”
• All Ranks: Use tailboard talks for BOTH tactical and emotional processing after all significant incidents.
• Peer Support Teams: Model healthy boundaries and resiliency, and seek to be the healthiest members so you can support others.
• Unions & Management: Establish joint insurance committees to advocate for proactive and accessible healthcare.
• New Leaders: Know your core values, seek mentors (good and bad examples), and be transparent—own mistakes and be open to learning.
• All Members: Cultivate off-duty community and connections—your resilience and performance at work depend on it.
• Entire Fire Service: Shift the narrative—our value is not how busy we are, but how effectively we prevent harm and support each other.

Closing Thought

“If we’re really doing our job, [call volume] should be going down. … That becomes our identity and value structure because that means a bigger budget, maybe more staffing. ... Are we doing anything about that?”
— Chief Chuck DeSmith [87:30]

Next Guest Challenge

Chief DeSmith suggests inviting Larry Johnson (New Mexico) or Donnie Woodyard for their progressive outlook on integrating EMS as a primary healthcare entry point and making fire service more sustainable.

Connect with Chief Chuck DeSmith

• LinkedIn: [Search "Chuck DeSmith"]
• Email: C.DeSmith864@mail.com

Chuck offers guidance on peer support, tactical readiness, and resilience—open to all questions and eager to help design effective programs.

Host/Producer: Berlin Maza
Special Thanks: Skyler Nagorski

For questions, feedback, or peer support inquiries, reach out to Chuck DeSmith or the Kitchen Table podcast team.