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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 95: Mike Dugan, Captain (ret.) - It's Your Turn
01:10:14
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- [00:02]
Captain Mike Dugan
What you are is your gift from God. And what you make of yourself is your gift to God. And I always equate that to the fire service. You have been given the gift of being a firefighter. How you better the fire service is your return gift. How you make it better is your gift to the fire service of the world. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
- [01:08]
Podcast Host
Good afternoon and welcome to the Kitchen Table. Today on the 95th episode, we welcome Captain Mike Dugan of the FDNY. And today we're talking about leadership in the firehouse and on the fire ground, how everyone is a leader. Mike Dugan was a 27 year veteran of the FDNY, serving as the captain of Ladder Company 123 before retiring. He has been involved with the fire service for over 48 years. Mike was the recipient of the Tom Brennan lifetime achievement award at FDIC in 2021. Mike is the challenge of recent Kitchen Table guest, Mike Galliano of Seattle. Good afternoon, Captain. How are you today?
- [01:53]
Captain Mike Dugan
I'm doing very well. Brilliant. How are you, brother?
- [01:56]
Podcast Host
I'm doing well, thank you so much. Well, as mentioned, it's always an honor to have someone such as yourself to take time out of their busy day to take this random challenge through email of another individual to be a guest on this podcast. And we have never met before, so I just want to say thank you.
- [02:14]
Captain Mike Dugan
No problem, no problem.
- [02:16]
Podcast Host
So before we get going, I read obviously a short bio that you provided me. And before we just start talking leadership, would you mind sharing a little bit about Mike Dugan wherever you want to take us, whether it be family, career, retirement, but also what it was like to serve with the FDNY for 27 years.
- [02:36]
Captain Mike Dugan
Well, Mike Dugan is number one, a husband, a father. I'm also a brother. I have three sisters and two brothers. So my family is very precious to me and they're my number one thing. We can talk a little bit in a little while about some of the things I do with my family that are really cool. But I have two daughters, they're both working. One is a school teacher, one is a social worker. They're giving back to the community. My wife retired after working for our local government on Long island in social services, so I'm enjoying life now. My wife and I are trying to, as we like to joke, spend our kids inheritance. But we're not going to have any luck, but we're trying to just enjoy our life and figure out where we're going to go for our 40th wedding anniversary and what we're going to do. The world as we know, with everything going on in the world is a little topsy turvy right now. So our trips of thinking about going to Europe and things like that, we're going to probably put them on hold for a little while until things calm down. So trying to work that out right now. But yeah, that's where I'm at in my life. Working for the FDNY was not just an honor, but it was also a privilege. You know, learning to be a fireman. I started in 1985. I got sworn in. I came over from the NYPD and 107 85. I was sworn in a little over 40 years ago on the FDNY, and we ended up going to a very slow company to kill overtime in the area. And as a probie, still a probie. I was transferred without having a request for transfer in to 43 truck in Spanish Harlem. And that's where I learned to be a fireman. I worked with some of the best guys in the world, and they taught me how to do my job. So learning how to do your job from people who work great. I had a great captain who you never wanted to disappoint, and he was always, always, always teaching you. You know, you'd walk in a building and you'd walk back out before you got out of the building. He'd say, how many apartments per floor? How many mailboxes? Was there a front fire escape? How many stories? Was there a basement entrance on the side, or was the basement entrance in the rear? Or was it under the stairs in the front?
- [05:26]
Podcast Host
Where.
- [05:27]
Captain Mike Dugan
Where were you going in these other. And he taught you to. To see, to think, to spot. And my friends, who I still hang out with, call me a spotter because I watch everything, I see everything. And people like, how did you see that? Because I just look at everything and I know what's going on. I. Situational awareness was a huge part of my captain, and it was a huge part of what he taught me, and it's a huge part of what I taught my guys. So it just all kind of fits in together that we do this, that we work together, and we are a team and we make each other better. We pick each other up. So I think it's important that we go about those things. But being a member of the fdny, And I've been retired for a while now, and I still worked. I went back into the city and I worked for a group called the New York Fire Safety Institute, doing teaching in buildings that had had fires, doing staff training, building residence training. And very honestly, I enjoyed the heck out of it. And I got to go in buildings I would never be invited into as a. As Mike Dugan, because I was an expert working for this company. And I went into some of these apartments in Manhattan that. That were. I mean, I was in a couple of apartments that were 18,000 square feet apartment in Manhattan. The covering charges, what it cost to pay the taxes and the fees and everything were more than I made in a year. So it was really interesting. So I've had a very blessed career. So it's like, it's a lot of fun.
- [07:13]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Let's go back a little bit to talk about your first captain, because that is a very inspiring story to get us started, because you mentioned someone that just in the words that you use, someone that was obviously influential, but very competent, it seems like, and shaped your early career as a. As a probationary firefighter. We'll say, where does that leadership even come from? Meaning, you know, you won't have every leader in the fire service, every company officer will say, every chief officer that thinks or thought the way that your captain thought. Right. Is here you are out of the, out of. Out of the academy, you know, one second assignment, if you will. And you're working with this captain that is so forward of what you're saying. Like, hey, how many floors? How many. You know, how many doors on the left, how many windows, how many steps? How many feet? Like that right there is just. It's. It's so cool to, to even listen to. Where does your. Where did your captain learn something like that? Right? We're talking leadership today. So I'm curious on, like, is that just him as an individual? Was that the culture of fdny talking. Talk about that?
- [08:15]
Captain Mike Dugan
I think it's a combination. Captain, his name was Dan Marshall. Captain Marshall's father was a fireman for 35 years in a busy company in New York City. Captain Marshall, at 17, got into a little bit of trouble and went into the merchant marine. And he was on a merchant ship in the 50s, and a guy, a snatch block let go on the boat, and a guy got caught with a. A rope, a snapped rope. And Captain Marshall said to the other guys, well, we got to do something. This guy's bleeding to death. He said, get me a needle and a thread and I'll sew him up. And he sewed him up on the deck of the ship to try to stem the bleeding and saved his life. Now that was kind of like the thing he was. But he was also a humanitarian. Captain Marshall and his wife Elaine had three biological kids and then adopted two more special needs children. And to kind of put it in perspective, because the fire service is so small, I met his nephew years later and he is a the training captain down in Virginia. And Bill Marshall is just a great, great guy, but we connected over his uncle and how much he meant to me. So I feel like it's paying it forward to be doing this stuff. So I think that, you know, people who go in there, you have to go, you can have, you can be one of two types of firefighters. You can be have a job or you can be on the job. Okay. You can be into the job, into training, into learning, taking tools off the rigs and doing the stuff, or you can be there like, you know, work one, fish two, work one, surf two, whatever you want to do, you know? Understood. But the guys and girls that I want to be around are the ones who, who are into the job, who want to get better, want to learn more, and want to be better at it. So I think that's the kind of people. And when you go to good fire runs, because they go to fires, but they get. But the guys and girls who want to go to the fires are willing to take that ass kicking to get to go to fires with you and learn their job and be better at their job.
- [10:53]
Podcast Host
I actually heard you say this. It must have been on, on your FDIC keynote. But what you just said reminded me what the 1% of the fire service. Yep. Is the backbone of the fire service.
- [11:05]
Captain Mike Dugan
Right, Right.
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Podcast Host
Talk about that. 1%.
- [11:08]
Captain Mike Dugan
Well, that's from a Greek, and forgive me, I can't recall his name. It'll come to me after we're done. But who said about a battle of the soldiers, he said that 90% shouldn't be there. They're just their targets. They're cannon fodder. 9% are fighters and they will fight the battle. 1% is the leader. He will bring the others home. He is the leader. He is the true warrior. He is the one that will fight to bring the others home. They are the 1%. And in the fire service, we have the same thing. We have the 1 percenters. I mean, and maybe in a fire service, because of who we are and the nature of what we do, maybe it's 5%, I don't know. But we. Those are the brothers and sisters who want to train, who want to drill, who want to pull tools off the thing. If you go to a run at 3 o' clock in the morning and something happens, they're not going to bed. When they get back to the firehouse, they're going into the kitchen to have a drill. And those are the people you want. And I always tell the story. I had a great senior man, guy by the name of Tommy Davidi, great senior man. And at one point we come back from a fire and let me set the story. We used to go out and have to do certain drills. And I would tell the guys, okay, we got to do this drill. And one of the drills we had to do one time was use a fog nozzle on the aerial as the ladder pipe for mass decon because it was after 9, 11, and everything else, just in case we had a mass decon in New York City. So we did that drill. And I told the guys, okay, bed the ladder. We did the drill. I took a couple of pictures and said, okay, we did the drill. Let's go around the corner. And we had a vacant building. And at the time you went to vacant buildings, you could go up on the roof of a vacant building and drill up on the roof of the vacant building. And I said, okay, let's go have some fun. And we went and had some fun up on the roof of this vacant building, figuring out what we would do, where we would go, and everything else. And the deputy chief comes by and he says, Division 15 to Ladder 12 3. Yeah, Chief, go ahead. He says, mike, you better come down to the street. Your rig's on fire. I'm like, chief, come on, stop breaking my chops. He goes, I'm not kidding. The dashboard is smoking. I'm like, holy crap. We go running down. When they bedded the ladder pipe, they left the fog nozzle there, and it went right into the roof of the cab where the marker lights were. And it must have just dented it enough to short out one of the marker lights. But it didn't trip the circuit breaker, so it set the wiring harness on fire. So of course, you know what happens? We have to go back, go out of service. We're out of service. We got the rig on fire. We're going back to quarters. Send a mechanic. We get on our way back to quarters, they get a first through fire and we're not there because that's just Murphy's law. So I go Back. And my senior man says, hey, Cap, you know what the rig's telling you? I said, no, Tommy, what? He goes, you're drilling too much. I said, okay, I'll take that under advisement. About a week later, maybe 10 days later, we have a real good fire in the middle of the night, and we come back and, you know, as I like to say, the guys are all. They're beat up, but they're happy because they did their jobs in there. What did you have? Where did you go? What? Who got to the roof? How'd you get to the roof? Use the aerial to go to the other building. What'd you do? You had the ov. What did you do? And Tommy comes into the office and he says, hey, Cap, we're having a drill in the kitchen. And I said, okay, I'll be in in a minute. He goes, no, you're not invited. And I said, oh, okay. And he said, go take a shower. I'll tell you when we're back in service. Not a problem, Tommy. Tommy saw something at that fire that was wrong, that one of my guys did that I didn't see. And he was going to correct it, and he was going to correct it properly, but he was not going to embarrass the member in front of the officer. He was not going to embarrass the member. It was only the truck guys, and only they were allowed in the kitchen to talk about it, and nobody else knew about it. And he did whatever he had to do. And they came on the radio and said, okay, this is the way it is. But the thing is, he said to me after that, you know what I told you about drilling too much? Forget about it. Keep drilling. So I think that drilling and letting people know who's got good stuff, who's got bad stuff. And I don't mean bad stuff, but who's your expert in ropes? Who's your expert in hazmat? Who's your expert in medical stuff? I mean, we had a nurse workforce. He was my medical guy. You know, we had a locksmith. Okay, let's talk about doors, all of these things, okay? Everyone has something to offer. Everyone has a skill, and you have to bring those to the forefront and make sure that everybody knows what their value is to the unit. And then by doing that, the guy who is not, or the girl who was not good in ropes and knots, it's going to get better in ropes and knots. But they're good in hazmat, or they're good in medical, or they're good in auto extrication. They're going to bring their expertise and start teaching the other people. So that's how a good company, how they work together. And those are the people you want to be surrounded with.
- [16:46]
Podcast Host
I can go five different directions here, Cap, and I don't. I don't know which way to go because I want to go in all of them. But I like what you said, because one thing I did hear was that peer to peer, we'll say peer to peer accountability, peer to peer leadership. You didn't want the captain in the room. You wanted the firefighters or the truckees to be together, talk together. Because there's a different dynamic, right? There's a different dynamic when it's firefighter to captain or if it's truckee to truckee. And it is right, wrong, or indifferent. But there is. But that's also leadership when a peer can take a peer and be comfortable. But then the one that's taking the feedback, we'll say to take it as feedback and not be offended. Hey, you're not my, you're not my officer. You can't tell me, you know what I'm doing, right or wrong. So there's some humility there. But there's. That's, that's leadership on both ends. That's leadership and that's followership, and it's
- [17:33]
Captain Mike Dugan
also, it's company pride. He knew something happened that. I still don't know what it was, but he knew that something happened that he did not like. And he had been in the company for well over 20 years in that company. And he said, I'm not going to let this happen, but I'm also not going to embarrass the member. Now, a good leader will realize that, that his senior people are doing the right thing and let them do it. Not say, oh, no, no, no, you're having a drill, I got to be there. Well, then they wouldn't have that drill, and it wouldn't get corrected until it was corrected. This was corrected as a company, but also as firefighters in their rank, they took care of it themselves. They policed themselves. And that's what you want a good company to do. That's what you want good guys and girls to do, is police themselves.
- [18:29]
Podcast Host
Yeah, well, so I love that because I'll just be 100% honest here is. I don't see that very often. I see it sometimes, but I don't see it very often.
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Captain Mike Dugan
Right.
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Podcast Host
I see a lot of, like, what kind of. What I said earlier is, well, you're not my. You're not my company officer. I'll take my critiques. I'll take the feedback from my company officer. And so I love that you had companies at the FDNY or you're with companies and work with individuals that embraced that and understood that that's a part of being competent or better. So now my.
- [19:01]
Captain Mike Dugan
Getting better.
- [19:01]
Podcast Host
Getting better.
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Captain Mike Dugan
They.
- [19:02]
Podcast Host
Oh, I love that. Getting better. That's even better way to say it. How do we encourage that? Because let's just throw it out there. There are some individuals that won't take feedback from their peers.
- [19:14]
Captain Mike Dugan
Right.
- [19:14]
Podcast Host
They'll only take it from their boss because they, you know, that's their official chain of command. But we. We need. We need to be open to feedback in all directions. Right?
- [19:24]
Captain Mike Dugan
Well, we need. In the fire service, we need to empower the senior firefighter, the guy or girl who's been in the company the longest, who wears that company hatch on their sleeve with such pride and devotion to that company, to that firehouse, that they want to make it better. They always want it to look good. We had a saying in the FDNY that along with your unit number, your name is on the side of the rig. It's just written in invisible ink. Okay, everybody knows where Mike Dugan worked. Okay, everyone knows where you work. So if something happens, they know. Whether it was my firehouse, whether it was your firehouse, if something happens and good companies make mistakes, great companies make mistakes. It happens all the time. There's nothing wrong with it. But if they continue to make the mistake and don't get better, that's where there's a leadership failure.
- [20:27]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. You said that so well. So you. Today's concept and philosophy or theme, we should say, is talking about leadership in the firehouse and on the fire ground. And you mentioned that everyone is a leader.
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Captain Mike Dugan
Absolutely.
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Podcast Host
Let's talk about that for a minute. Rookie firefighter.
- [20:44]
Captain Mike Dugan
Right?
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Podcast Host
They're leaders. Right?
- [20:45]
Captain Mike Dugan
They're leaders.
- [20:46]
Podcast Host
The junior man or woman is. Is a leader.
- [20:49]
Captain Mike Dugan
Absolutely. They can see something you don't see. And I always tell them, if you see something, say something. Or you could be up near a flow path and not be taking too much heat because there's a little bit of fresh air coming in, feeding the fire where you are. But. But they're back on the other side and they're getting cooked, and they're like, I can't say anything because that guy is going to yell at me or something else. And then all of a sudden, the fire's over your head because the place is Getting ready to flash because the fire's been traveling over your head. If you see something, say something. You're a leader. You are empowered to be a part of this company. You are protecting the brothers and sisters. Say something. See something. Okay, say, holy mack, it's getting hot here. Does anybody else feel this? And the guy stand? Guy or girl sitting next to you, standing next to you might say, yeah, I didn't want to say anything because I didn't want to look like a wimp. But all of a sudden we say, whoa, whoa, how bad is it up there? And then maybe the officer takes his wrist and bends it at the wristlet, puts it up there and says, holy crap, we've probably got fire over our head. I didn't realize that because I'm in this little area here that's giving me a little refuge or whatever else. We've got, got to, got to allow them to voice their. Because they're part of this company. They're putting their lives on the line just like you and I are. So they have to have an input into this. They have to have a say. And I think that's vitally important. And the other thing is, I mean, you want them to learn how to be leaders. The greatest tribute to a company is to look at a picture and say, oh, there he is. That was a fireman, he's now the Captain of Rescue 1. That guy was a fireman, he's now the Captain of Rescue 4. That guy's going to be a chief of department. He's a two star chief now. Moving up the rank. This guy is a battalion chief in the Bronx. This guy is in Brooklyn. We have gone out a good company spreads its tentacles out in the fire department. And you get guys and girls from all over learning from what you learned from the people you learned. So everyone has a voice because if you see something, you gotta say something.
- [23:09]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. So let's, let's run with that some more because I love it. Right? I mean if you see something, you gotta say something. Everyone has expertise. Everyone brings their perspectives. That's why we hired them. Right? So we promoted them. We wouldn't do so if they were not valuable to the team. Will say another thing that I've heard, I've read in either an article you wrote, you said, we are waiting your thoughts referring to those new members, those other members. They are the, the wave of the new hungry, we'll call them firefighters, company officer leaders in this department. And you also said this term, it's your turn.
- [23:42]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yeah.
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Podcast Host
Pick up that. Yeah, talk about that.
- [23:44]
Captain Mike Dugan
Pick up the toy. Well, first off, because there are two parts to that. First off, if you are doing something and you're not sure why you're doing it, and a young guy or girl asks you, why do we do this? The FDNY used to wash the wheels on the rigs after every run. Do you know why they did that? Horse stung. Because when the horses pooped in the street, it got on the wheels, and the horse made the wheels, and then it got kicked up into the. So after every run, they washed the wheels. Well, they still kept washing the wheels after the horses were long gone. And somebody finally came in and said, why are we doing this? Nobody knew. Nobody knew. The question why, I think is a great question. And young guys and girls love to ask that question, why do we do this? Okay, this is why we do it. But if you don't have an answer and you can't find an answer as to why you do this, you better go back and try to find out what caused this. What is the start of this. So I think that's important that we understand the why. The other thing is, the young guys and girls, they have to be willing to pick up the torch. The fire department. Being a firefighter to me, was always not a job, but a calling, a vocation, but it was also an advocation. I loved doing it. I loved going to work. I loved working in marginalized communities where people needed help. I loved being around to help people. Not everybody liked to take the help, but a lot of people did. And there were a lot of great people that we helped, and they loved us showing up. So it's your turn to start getting in there and picking up the torch and figuring out how you are going to make the fire department better to serve your citizens and your members. And it's your turn, because I gave it what I had, and I hope I made a change. But now you have to decide what you want to do and where you want to go with that. I love that.
- [26:00]
Podcast Host
I love that. It's your turn. It's such a. Such a powerful concept, because what I always say to any of the new firefighters that are there, they're going to be. The longer. They're going to be there at this department, longer than I am, because they're younger than me. I'll be out soon. So it's so true. It is your turn. It is their turn, and we need them to pick up that torch. So I'm gonna ask a quick question, and it goes, you know, back in circles. But it's the purpose just to hit it home is how do we get more young people to pick up that torch?
- [26:30]
Captain Mike Dugan
You know what, that's a great question. And here's what I say, okay? You've been. And a lot of the younger guys and girls are from the, I call them the so called trophy generation, where you got a trophy for participation. You got a trophy for everything you did. The fire services. You don't get a trophy for everything you do. Okay? It's never going to happen. But you do get recognition from your peers if you do the right thing. There is never a wrong time to do the right thing. Even if nobody's watching. Doing the right thing is the best thing you can do for yourself and your career. So what do we have to do? Well, the leaders who are in today have to do the right thing all the time and be willing to take the heat for it. Not all of them are willing to do that. And I know that they're playing politics and other things. And I understand, you know, there were more things above in the chief's rank and the chief of department with the mayor and the city council than I'll ever know. But, but there were certain times where the chief has to say, I can't live with that. And there are certain times when firemen have to say, well, I don't think so. So again, we have to decide where we stand on this. And it's important that we understand, you know, that there are other perspectives and maybe we don't see all sides of it, but until we have done and asked, you know, these, the old question is they can't tell you no if you don't ask. You know, ask, why are we doing this? Can you explain this to me so I can explain it to the other members of the company? Why are we making this okay? And are we figuring out ways we can do it better okay? And again, it's looking at things you can do to make things easier.
- [28:47]
Podcast Host
It's funny, I'm chuckling only as sarcasm that, you know, you mentioned. It's like we do things sometimes because it's the way we've always done it, right? And it's funny. I mean, it's not funny, but it's funny. It's like, oh, it happens at the FDNY too. Not just, you know, over here.
- [29:03]
Captain Mike Dugan
Oh, no, it happens everywhere.
- [29:04]
Podcast Host
Yeah, happens everywhere. A question I have for you because as I look at the timeline here, it's Obviously March of 2026, 27 years with the New York City Fire Department. If I can ask this question, Cap, where were you on 9 11? And you know, I've never talked to a New York City firefighter and talked about like 911 and where they were, you know, with the fire department and how it affected you personally. I mean, is that a topic we can go down just kind of where you are?
- [29:30]
Captain Mike Dugan
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm going to just grab something off the wall. All right. I don't know if you can see that.
- [29:37]
Podcast Host
I can. Absolutely I can.
- [29:39]
Captain Mike Dugan
Okay. Well, my brother had that made for me. That guy on the ladder is me.
- [29:46]
Podcast Host
That's you.
- [29:47]
Captain Mike Dugan
That's me.
- [29:47]
Podcast Host
But can I see that again, Cap?
- [29:49]
Captain Mike Dugan
Because I. Yeah, I'll show you the copy of the magazine it was on. It's on U.S. news World Report. Wow.
- [29:55]
Podcast Host
So for the listeners here, it's Cap Mike Dugan on the under siege. U.S. news on the latter with the American flag. I've seen that. We've all seen that.
- [30:03]
Captain Mike Dugan
Well, the amazing thing about that picture is the guy holding the ladder, his name was Chris Engeltrum. He was a member of the fighting 69th and he was our first KIA killed in action since World War II for the FDOI. And since then we have had three more. And again on 910 I was at a party for where I was lieutenant in the South Bronx. And 11 men who were at that party did not see sunset the next day. And just an amazing stories. And Ray Murphy was a Lieutenant, lot of 16 promoted out, a lot of 42 where I was a lieutenant. And Ray Murphy survived the first collapse, dusted himself off, sent a couple of his guys back with an injured person and I think it was a member, but I'm not positive, and took one other guy with him and they walked towards the second building and were killed in the second collapse. Now that to me is dedication. You survived one, you're going back. That's dedication. That's what it is. So on 911 I was there. Also a couple of days later, one of my firefighters who was my chauffeur at 42 truck came up and said, just want to let you know, Cap, Pete Deerfield, who was one of my chauffeurs, also is missing, hasn't been seen from for three days. We did not know that Pete was at the medical office on medical leave from a job a couple of days earlier and said to them, put me full duty, I'm going to the World Trade Center. Drove down there, left his keys in a note in the locker, took a set of gear and nobody Knew we went in the building and he was in the building running up the stairs and he didn't survive. But that to me is courage. You know, you had the easiest way out, easiest way out. And I'm on medical leave, I can't go. And he said, nope. So I was with these guys on the 10th, I was at the fire academy on 11th. And we went down there and I got down there and somebody else found the flag and gave it to me and I said, we got to put this up and we put it up on that light pole. Now if you look at the picture just because I'll show it to you one more time.
- [32:40]
Podcast Host
Absolutely.
- [32:41]
Captain Mike Dugan
Because my dad was a World War II bomber pilot. And he looked at the picture and said, hey, idiot, to me the flag's backwards. And I said, no, it's not pop. I said, it's pointing north. I said, the photographer came around the other side to take the picture. He said, oh well, the photographer's an idiot. I said, I'll take it. But I was, I was down there on that day. I got down there as the second tower collapsed. And I was also there on February 26, 1993 on the first bombing of the World Trade Center.
- [33:20]
Podcast Host
Wow. Geez. That's the first time that I've had a conversation with New York City firefighter to kind of just talk about, you know, whether it be 9, 11 or you know, days or weeks or years after. And I will. I just wanted to hear a perspective that I've never been able to hear.
- [33:35]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yep, we're going to do be doing a whole huge thing this year at FDIC for the 25th. It's going to be the commemoration of the 25th anniversary because it's the only place that we can probably get all the guys and girls from all the different task forces who responded from different places, from Shanksville, from the Pentagon, from the fdny all in one place is going to be fdic. And this year the amazing thing is going to be that Frank Siller from the tunnel to Towers, who's Stephen Siller, was killed on 9 11. But they started to tunnel to Towers and they pay off all the veterans and the first responders mortgages. He's going to be doing the keynote, which I think is going to be amazing.
- [34:25]
Podcast Host
Yeah, that's amazing. I have a group of colleagues from across the country that are doing a, a full on. I think 10 of them are going to FDIC this year for the full week and I can't make it. I actually said to them you know, I'll go for this day, these two days. And they're looking at me like, what do you mean you go for these two days? You don't go for two days. You go for all or you don't go at all. And so I had to step down because just family dynamic. But that's what a, what a honor it'd be to be there for the 25th anniversary.
- [34:51]
Captain Mike Dugan
And I think any leader, and especially middle management, I mean, a captain, you have lieutenants underneath you and firemen underneath you. And then you have battalion chiefs, deputy chiefs and staff chiefs above you. Being a middle manager, being a leader in the middle is not easy, but it's so rewarding because you can do both ways. You can work both ways with leading from above, leading from below. And that to me, is really a lot of fun, okay? Because you can make an impact on the organization and the people in many ways by being that leader and being willing to go out and do it. Now, it ain't easy. It ain't easy. And nobody, nobody's ever going to say that it was easy to be that leader, but you can do that. So I think that is one of the key things. You have to be willing to put yourself out there and do it. And you're going to get beat up every once in a while and you're going to make mistakes and so be it, but you're also going to make an impact because you're willing to do it.
- [36:09]
Podcast Host
What does the FDNY do to develop leaders will say, Right. I mean, there's a lot of on the job. Right, right. Was there anything else that the fdny, yes. Does. What is that? Share with us?
- [36:23]
Captain Mike Dugan
Well, in New York State, to get promoted to an officer, to ride in the right seat on a fire apparatus in a career department in New York State, you have to go to something called flips, which is first line supervisors training program, and we call it flips. It's six weeks of training to be a leader. You have to take educational methodology, you have to get instructor one and two. You have to take building construction code enforcement, you have to learn, do a drill, you have to do all this stuff. It's six weeks of training. Then to become a captain, you have to go and when we started the captain's program, it was only two weeks of training. I think it's now six weeks of training to be promoted to captain. You have to go offline, go to the fire academy and go through all of these things. Now when I was promoted to captain, when You're a captain. You have to. ABC in the fdny, which is acting Battalion Chief. And I was involved in a bunch of different stuff at the time. And I remember at one point I was involved on the apparatus committee in the FDNY for a while, and I was also involved in the Meritorious Board of Review as a former medal winner. And I went down to headquarters, and one of the chiefs down there was chief of operations at the time. And he said, what happened? I heard rumblings in the background about something happening to you, ABC Acting Battalion Chief. And I said, well, very honestly, Chief, you hung me out to try. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, I have the chief's car, and there are five different handsets in the chief's car. I know the one that I talk on, that's on the. Mounted on the. The dashboard that I talk on, but there are four other handsets. I'm in a battalion right on the Queens, Brooklyn border in Brooklyn. But they send me to Kennedy Airport for a fire in a plane. And they go, turn on the 800 MHz. And I look at the guy driving me, and I said, do you have any idea what the 800 MHz radio is? He goes, I don't have any idea what any radio is, except that one. That's the only one I've ever talked on. He said, that makes two of us. And I'm a captain. He goes, yeah, I'm only here for the day. And I'm like, okay. So I get on the radio and I go, three, nine to Queens. Okay, because we switched over to Queens frequently. See, from Brooklyn. Yeah, go ahead, three, nine. Hey, listen, what's the 800 MHz radio? And how do I turn it on? I go, I'm an ABC and I've got a Band Aid. And what we call our driver for the day is a Band Aid, because we have a regular aid. And he stays with the chief. And on the day the chief's not there, you get a covering aid. So I have a band aid and me. And I go, what's the 800 MHz radio? You can hear the dispatches cracking up. Like, oh, my God, that's hysterical. This guy has no idea what he's doing. And I didn't. So I said that to the chief. You know, what do you expect me to do? Well, about a month later, I get a phone call. You're going offline for three weeks, huh? Yeah. You're going to help put together a captain's management program. We're going to do some stuff with captains, and we want to know what's going on and we want to put this program together. And every captain, if you had one day in rank or 15, 20 years in rank as a captain, wow, you had to go to the academy for two weeks of training, and it was great. And then it evolved into more because now it's only the brand new captains who have never been through it, and they go through all of this stuff, they grow through scenarios, leadership, things what happens and how you're going to do things. And I think that makes you know. Because if you do stuff in your firehouse that works for you and you don't share it with other firehouses like in the fdny, we have to inspect hydrants, and we get hydrant inspection twice a year. We have to go out and inspect all the hydrants in our district. Wow. Well, we also have building inspection, couple of days a week. We have training required and everything else. So one of the things that I did is I took our hydrant map and I put it on the rig and I said, I highlighted it. These are our hydrants. If we go on a box, we know that every engine company that we run in with is checking a hydrant. On every run, they go to find out what the address is, what the hydrant market that was checked. On this day, we can take a mark for inspecting it because the engine checked it. Did it drain? Is it working? Does it have water? Yes. Hydrant inspected. 3:00 clock in the morning. We got two hydrants. Oh, yeah, we did that one too, Cap. Oh, okay. There were two. That's two hydrants we got inspected. Now we got to go out and do hydrant inspection. I already got 15 that I got done. So I'm making my job easier. Yeah. Telling other people this is how we. Damn, I never thought about doing that. That's brilliant. Okay, so again, making people thinking about ways you can make the job better and making it better for all of us.
- [41:49]
Podcast Host
I want to go back and just highlight something so awesome. I want to make sure I heard you correctly. So you were the ABC for the day. You had a band aid. There was something. You were new in the role of abc, Correct?
- [42:01]
Captain Mike Dugan
Correct.
- [42:02]
Podcast Host
And then you were had a piece of equipment, right. 800 MHz radio, but we'll just say any piece of equipment didn't know how to use it. So instead of, hey, what the hell? You're an abc? Why are you an ABC if you can't operate this instead of that? It's all right, we found a hole in our system. Let's figure out how to not have this hole occur again for everybody else current and next. And let's build a program and let's now turn it into a several week program. Let's be proactive because if it's a miss, we'll say or a hole in 800 MHz radio, there's probably holes elsewhere too. So I'm going to go ahead and say that obviously not just this, but here is one differentiating piece of what makes FDNY in addition to so many other things, right. Is you'll. That organization will take and run with a concept like that and now turn it into this full blown development program for all the existing. Right. You said you could be a 22 year captain with a year left in their career, but they have to go through this.
- [43:09]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yes, they do.
- [43:10]
Podcast Host
How many organizations would do that? I mean, I'm inspired right now hearing this and I'm going to reach out to you later to kind of find out more about what is included in this. You know, just on a very casual level, because we could all think of what's there. You said building inspections, human resource, administrative tactics, you know, we can name it. And it just goes to the whole intentionally developing your people. And what I always say is, are your people being developed intentionally or accidentally? Like are we letting them just go fail and we're not learning from mistakes and hope they get better, or are we getting ahead of it and say no, these are the identified items. We need them to do and learn and let's give it to him.
- [43:46]
Captain Mike Dugan
Right. And very honestly, our system is that if you are going to be an abc, an acting battalion chief, it goes by seniority and rank. Whoever's the most senior captain. Now, if there's anybody who is on a current promotional list to be promoted to chief means they study, they go first.
- [44:08]
Podcast Host
Sure. Makes sense.
- [44:09]
Captain Mike Dugan
But then it goes by seniority. So if there wasn't a captain's list, then it was always the senior guys. And you know, every once in a while another thing we did was like, hey, listen, you know, they're pulling another captain, Bobby Higgins from 231 is going to be ABC. One of his guys is getting promoted. They're having a gathering, they're having a dinner for him. Hey, Bobby, you going to be ABC tonight? Yeah. Where is it? The 3 9. All right, I'll go, I'll go there. Okay. That way you can stay in your firehouse where your guy is getting promoted. We always had A thing of being aware of whatever. If somebody can't do it for whatever reason, let us know and the other guys will pick it up for you. But if you don't train your people, what do they say? Failure to train is training to fail. And again, you're putting someone into a position they have never been in before with no understanding there's going to be a problem. So I think it's a great concept for all organizations that this is how you do it, this is how you train.
- [45:26]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. So formal and informal mentorship is necessary for success, correct? Absolutely. Yeah. Has just out of curiosity, just to lean on this once, just a little bit further before we go to a new topic is it continues to evolve, right, this development program.
- [45:44]
Captain Mike Dugan
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [45:46]
Podcast Host
Adding things. Okay.
- [45:47]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yeah, adding things. Changing things. As laws change, building codes change, things change in the fdny. Yep, that changes.
- [45:56]
Podcast Host
Okay. I'd be remiss if I didn't go here Cap, because we talked about 911 and one of the, one of the topics of today is talking about mental health in the fire service.
- [46:05]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yep.
- [46:06]
Podcast Host
So I mean mental health and the fire service. Right. It's, it's, call it what it is, it's there, it's not going away. Yes, we have more robust, whether it be peer support programs, we've kind of erased the stigma kind of on, you know, whether it be going to counseling, seeking therapy, whatever you have you. But mental health in the fire service is real. Being that 911 FDNY, obviously trauma all across the American fire service. Where are we with mental health in the fire service?
- [46:35]
Captain Mike Dugan
We're moving in the right direction, but at a snail's pace. I tell this to people all the time and if it wasn't for counseling and help after 9 11, I don't think I would still be married. I'll be married in a couple of months. In May I'll be married 40 years. I've been with my wife 46 and a half years now and she still likes me. I can't understand it, but my daughter was 6 years old and she came to me after 9 11, probably in late October, early November, probably was around Halloween, I don't exactly remember. And I was, we were working 24 on, 24 off. But on your 24 off you were going to funerals one day I had four funerals of guys I worked with the same day. Where do I go, who do I go to see and all that. And I was angry and I was drinking a lot and I was self medicating and my daughter came to me and said, daddy, why are you always mad? And that was the hardest punch I ever took in my life. Now I'm one of six in an Irish Catholic family. Grew up with a lot of Irish, Italian, Polish, large Jewish families in a real working class neighborhood where, you know, having six kids was normal, having 12 was okay. You know, a lot of the families, the Delba, Carroll, the Glackins, they all had, you know, large families. And we fought, we wrestled, you know, we got into fights, we beat up each other. But that was the hardest punch I ever took in my life was from that little six year old girl. And I looked at my wife and she said, yeah, the kids are kind of afraid of you. What? And I went into counseling. Now, I will tell this to you and tell it to everyone who's listening. It took me three counselors to find the right one. The first person they sent me to was a young girl. She was my niece's age. She was just out of college. Very, very, very nice young woman. But I looked at her and I said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I said, I hate to be this old man, but I need someone who has. Has walked the earth like I have walked the earth. And she said, I totally understand. I totally understand. And she said, I'll get you somebody else. And they got me the second woman. And the second woman was also a woman, but she was an older, but she had a squeaky voice and it was like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. She talked like this and it went right through me. And I said, I'm sorry, I don't think this is going to work. And they got me the third guy, who was a retired. He was a former cop and a fireman who had been in the same neighborhoods I knew. And we hit it off. We were great. My wife used to call him my boyfriend. And she'd be like, hey, honey, you're getting a little testy. When are you going to see your boyfriend? I said, oh, yeah, I got an appointment with them this week. She goes, oh, great. Good, good. Okay. Everything's going that way. And it was great.
- [49:55]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [49:55]
Captain Mike Dugan
I mean, it got me through all of this stuff. And I learned how to process and everything else. I had one 24 hour tour when I was a fireman where we lost 11 people. Okay. And there was no help. You know, the only thing we could do is go home and drink because your nightmares, you know, I watched one kid flee to death in a car because he was trapped in the hatchback. And there were Three other kids we might be able to save. And we went to the three other kids, but I watched this kid bleed to death. And I remember, I'll remember his eyes till the day I die. And I couldn't save him. And for us, that hurts. So I think mental health is one of the most important things, because what it can do, it can, number one, save a firefighter's life, can save their marriage and their family. It can also save the department from embarrassment, and it can save everything else. So I just, of course, Galliano's calling me.
- [51:09]
Podcast Host
Tell him hello.
- [51:11]
Captain Mike Dugan
But I think it's just important that we can understand this and that we understand that mental health has a broad ranging effect on the department. And if people in charge don't understand that and don't embrace that, there is a huge problem. There is a huge problem with that. And I think that taking that in, and if you look at YouTube, you will see one of my heroes, a guy by the name of Father Michael Judge. On September 10, he had a sermon at that party that I was at about the fire department. And it's. The video was on YouTube and on 9, 10, 2001, Father Michael Judge. And he talks about good days and bad days, how great the fire department is, but he talks about, you never know what God is asking you to do. And I think he had a premonition. I honestly do. I think he had a gift from God about what was going on and what was going to happen. And he knew, and he gave that sermon. And he used to come into the firehouse all the time just to stop by to have a cup of coffee and, and see how the guys are doing. Father Delendek, who we lost from nine, 11 cancer, was the same way. He would stop by the firehouse and I knew both of them, and they'd say, hey, Mike, how you doing? How are the guys? What's going on? We have now retired guys that go around and stop in a firehouse just to see how the guys are doing, to check in. You know, we're here if you need anything, family, there's no stigma. Nobody has to even know about it. Whatever you want to do. I think it's so, so, so important because if something does go wrong and it's alcohol or something else and they have a problem, it's going to reflect on it. So taking care of it in advance is huge.
- [53:15]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Well, you mentioned, and I'll say it again right here, because it's, it's worth highlighting, of course, is it can save counseling, therapy can Save your marriage, could save your career. It could save the department that you work for, that you serve. And if that's not enough of incentive, I don't know what is. But I'll ask this question because it's real. What made it okay for you to, number one, start seeking counseling? But also, hats off to you for not saying, you know what, it's not working for me after the first one, let alone the second one. And then you stuck it out with a third one. Some people, number one, won't go seek counseling, will give up after the first one, will give up after the second one. I mean, you kept with it. What made it okay for you to stick with it?
- [54:06]
Captain Mike Dugan
Love. For my family. The two things, the three things that I love the most in this world are my wife and my two girls and seeing that six year old scared that daddy and I, like I said, I was drinking way too much. I mean, I was going to the refrigerator for the Coors lights, the Silver Bullet cans, and I was taking two at a time because I didn't want to have to get back up in five minutes to get a second one, you know, And I'm just popping them back. And I wasn't sleeping, so I was trying to. And then, you know, especially for me, alcohol screws up my sleep more. So, you know, I will still occasionally have a drink, but I don't drink much anymore because I'd rather sleep, you know, So I think it's a huge, huge thing that, you know, if people are having trauma and it can come from anything. I mean, I had a good friend whose trauma was seeing a car accident, and the car was the same car that his kid drove, and there were two young kids in the car, and he knew his son was out with his girlfriend. And that trauma is real. It's real. And I mean, it changes everything. So I think it's important that we embrace that and we hold up high. The people who do go
- [55:34]
Podcast Host
are more people, do you believe, open to seeing counseling nowadays. And the reason I go with that is I don't think, and I hope I'm wrong, I don't think we're seeing a reduction in divorce rates, in PTSD in the fire service. And I hope we are. Are we? And if we're not, I mean, for the listeners out there, we just got to keep working. We got to keep. We got to keep at it.
- [55:58]
Captain Mike Dugan
Well, I don't think there's enough statistical data to say for sure, but I think we're starting to make a difference. And I think I mean, listen, society has changed, and people have changed, and the world has changed. And, I mean, I could go. I could spend an hour just telling you the things that I see that are different. But when I went on the nypd, if you had any visible ink on your body, it had to be covered by a sleeve. You could not have any on the back of your hand. You could not have any on your neck or anything else. Now there are people with tattoos everywhere. Fine. The society's changed. I don't have a problem with that. But things change, okay? One of the things that's changed a lot to me is we are a society that is ruled by this, and we want instant gratification. Nobody's willing to put the work in for their relationship, for their marriage, for their family. Okay? It's easier for me to walk away than to deal with this crap that my wife is giving me. Well, yeah, it is easy to walk away, but when you walk away, you're never come. You're not coming back. Right? So I think it's important that you understand that you have to be committed. You know, I'm one of six. I got five brothers and sisters. My older sister, her husband unfortunately passed away from cancer. But all six of us were married to our first spouses when my mom passed away a couple of years ago, and it was the proudest thing in her life. And our priest was undone that all six of us were still married to our first spouse. And he said, I don't know what you did right, Mrs. Dugan, but whatever you did, you should bottle it, because it's amazing, because we're committed to making it work. And the thing about that is, one of the things we have to get better at in the fire service is communicating.
- [58:09]
Podcast Host
Yes, we do. Yes, we do. So you said committed.
- [58:13]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yep.
- [58:14]
Podcast Host
Commitment and your legacy.
- [58:16]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yep.
- [58:18]
Podcast Host
Speak on that.
- [58:21]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yeah. Well, I mean, let's be honest. I grew up, like I said, in a large Irish Catholic family. We went to the beach on Long island on the Atlantic Ocean every Saturday and Sunday in the summer, in July and August, with my dad. And my dad's legacy was always leave it better than you found it. When we got done, at the end of the day, we cleaned up all our garbage, and then each of us walked in a point of the compass towards where we were going and picked up extra garbage and left the beach better than we found it because we wanted to come back next weekend. Okay? Leave the job better than you found it. Commit to being a positive influence. Every man or woman is going to Be an example. Unfortunately, a percentage of them are going to be bad examples. Don't be a bad example. Be a good example. Be that guy or girl who people look up to. You know, that guy, he did it, right? That girl, she's amazing, man. She could have said no and not done it. But she went down to headquarters, set up a physical fitness plan for everybody. That was amazing. And commitment to the organization, to your company, to your family, your blood family, and to your firehouse family, that you are going to be the best you can be. Always strive to be better, and that will be the commitment, will be your legacy. It will be what you. What they remember you for, okay? They're not going to remember that you went to this fire or that fire, or you did this or you did that, but they're going to remember that you were committed to education on the fire department. You were committed to training. You were committed to doing the right thing. They're going to remember all those things. And in the end, that's going to be enough.
- [60:23]
Podcast Host
Yeah, that's going to be enough. It's.
- [60:25]
Captain Mike Dugan
That's.
- [60:25]
Podcast Host
That should be enough.
- [60:26]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yep.
- [60:27]
Podcast Host
Well, as we wind this down, Cap, I love this conversation. I do want to go here, because this is. I love what you say about this. So if you can give one advice to young leaders, what would it be?
- [60:40]
Captain Mike Dugan
Promote yourself. Young leaders. If you are going to be the leader, whether you are the leader, a company officer, the senior person in the firehouse, or you're the de facto senior person in the firehouse because the senior person is sitting on their ass drinking a cup of coffee, saying, he sucks, she sucks. I can't wait. I got 36 months to go and I'm out of this. No, if you're that senior person, promote yourself, okay? You are the leader. You are the boss. Be one, okay? And it's not that saying you've got an ego or anything else. It's like being a parent, okay? You can be your kid's friend or you can be their parent. You can't be both. You can be the leader or you can be the buddy, but you can't be both, okay? You have to be one. But above the other, you have to be that leader, that mentor, above being that friend. You can't look the other way at bad behavior, at things that are done wrong, that are against the rules, okay? And say, that's okay because you're my friend. No, if it's not okay for anybody, then it's not okay. So you have to promote yourself. You have to Be the boss, okay? You will have to be better. You have to work at being better. And you also have to open yourself up for criticism. And listen, if you make a mistake, own it, buy it, wear it proudly. Yeah, I screwed that one up. That was all on me. Okay? I made a mistake. It won't happen again. But I made that mistake. And you know what? Each and every one of you should learn from it and not ever make that mistake when you were in a position of leadership.
- [62:43]
Podcast Host
Absolutely. So I'm going to ask for an example here. Cap, you are a type that preaches this and someone that owns mistakes. And it sounds refreshing, we'll say. Refreshing that we have an individual that we'll say has so many years of experience, built career of competency and passion in the fire service. But you would make a mistake, we'll say, and own it and wear it. Like he said, what happens when your peer, your boss, doesn't own it? And now it's over and over again. It's Mike Dugan's fault. My. You know, and it's. It's never anyone else's fault. It's always Mike Dugan's fault.
- [63:22]
Captain Mike Dugan
That's fine. I can live with that. I know what I did. He knows what I did, or she knows what I did and they're not accepting it, that's okay. But the men and women on the apparatus floor, the men and women on the fireground know the truth. And you can't lie in the firehouse. You can try, but you're going to get caught every single time. So you just. If somebody wants to blame you for everything that ever happened, that's fine. Yeah, I was the cause of the invasion of Iraq. I caused the straights of Hormuz to be closed. Whatever you want to say, I really don't care. That's fine. I know what I did and everyone around me knows what I did. And sooner or later it will come back that he knows what he did or she knows what she did. So again, it's just the idea of doing it and doing it right all of the time.
- [64:32]
Podcast Host
All the time. That's the key. All of the time. Not sometimes. Right?
- [64:35]
Captain Mike Dugan
No, no.
- [64:36]
Podcast Host
All the time.
- [64:37]
Captain Mike Dugan
All the time.
- [64:38]
Podcast Host
All the time.
- [64:38]
Captain Mike Dugan
And, you know, be willing to make mistakes, be willing to mess up, but if you try, that's the. The man in the arena speech by Roosevelt. Okay? The person who was down here, they might fail, they might stumble and it's the Til Valhalla project. I love that T shirt. Puking is acceptable. Crawling is expected. Acceptable. Crying is acceptable. Everything is acceptable. Except quitting. Yeah, except quitting. Just keep moving forward. We always had a statement in my firehouses up the field. Up the field just means keep moving forward. Keep charging towards the sound of the guns. She keep moving towards the objective. Keep moving forward.
- [65:30]
Podcast Host
Keep moving forward.
- [65:31]
Captain Mike Dugan
I love that.
- [65:32]
Podcast Host
Right before we go to the leadership challenge, I have to ask this question because it goes to everything you said today, but you mentioned something about, are you listening? Right? There's so much stuff out there. There's so many classes we can go to. We can go to fdic, we can go to a local class, we could take, you know, a fire course at the local university. But it's one thing to go to these events, these seminars, and then come home. But are you listening and are you taking it with you and are you furthering it? Like you mentioned, Are you passing it down? So speak to the. Are you listening and are you paying attention?
- [66:13]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yeah. Well, I mean, again, it's. Are you listening to what's happening? Are you listening to what's going on? Are you listening to your people? And especially if they're calling you out on your behavior. You know, I can tell you to do the greatest things in the world, but if I'm not doing them myself, I'm just blowing smoke. So are you listening? Are you serious seeing? Are you paying attention and are you getting better? Are you reading? Are you, you know, are you reading books? Are you reading materials? Are you reading magazines? Are you looking at things? Are you doing more to broaden your horizons, to make yourself better?
- [67:03]
Podcast Host
Perfect. We're here today because obviously Mike Galliano, who was phoning you a few minutes ago, tell him we. We say hello. He challeng you to be a guest on the show. The success of this podcast specifically only continues because of these challenges. So I want to say thank you so much, Mike, for being here today, spending an hour and five minutes with us. But if we don't get a challenge from you, we can't continue the show. So is there someone out there that we can reach out to and say, Mike Dugan, challenge you to be the next guest?
- [67:35]
Captain Mike Dugan
I think you should talk to my friend John Walters. Okay. John Walters was a fireman in Rescue 1. And I don't want to shoot the whole story, but he was horrifically injured and came back from that to still work to make the fire service better, to make safety better. I mean, he was and is making a difference. He is working with organizations, and he now reaches out if someone is injured, similarly to how he was injured. He will go down. He will talk to them. He will sit with them. He will go over things with them. And I think to me, that is leadership from right there in the trenches. And he's willing to put aside his own pain and suffering to make it easier for other people who are going through what he went through. So I honestly recommend you challenge John Walters from Rescue 1.
- [68:47]
Podcast Host
John Walters or Rescue 1. Thank you so much. We'll reach out and see if he'd be willing to take up Captain Mike Dugan's leadership challenge. So again, I want to say thank you so much for giving up your time today. Before we close, I'm going to give you this opportunity to leave your lasting thoughts to the listeners. Anything you want them to walk away with today after listening for an hour and six minutes before we close it down.
- [69:13]
Captain Mike Dugan
Yeah, I have a plaque. I'm sitting in my basement here, but I have a plaque on the wall over my workbench that was given to me when I turned 16 by my aunt Pat. And it's a quote, and it says, what you are is your gift from God, and what you make of yourself is your gift to God. And I always equate that to the fire service. You have been given the gift of being a firefighter. How you better the fire service is your return gift. How you make it better is your gift to the fire service of the world.
- [69:58]
Podcast Host
Thank you, everybody, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable, and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to continue to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.