Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Episode 95: Captain Mike Dugan (ret.) – It's Your Turn
Released: March 25, 2026
Host: Berlin Maza
Guest: Captain Mike Dugan, FDNY (retired)

Episode Overview

In this inspiring episode, Captain Mike Dugan, a 27-year FDNY veteran and recipient of the Tom Brennan Lifetime Achievement Award, shares his hard-won philosophies on leadership in the fire service and beyond. Dugan reflects on the importance of company culture, peer leadership, mentorship, learning from mistakes, and the enduring legacy of those who serve. Drawing from vivid stories—including his experiences during 9/11 and personal battles with mental health—Dugan speaks candidly about humility, accountability, support, and the need for every member, from rookies to chiefs, to step up and make the fire service better for the next generation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mike Dugan’s Background & Early FDNY Influence

• Family & Career Context: Mike emphasizes the core role of family ("My family is very precious to me. They're my number one thing. I have two daughters, a wife who retired from social services, and we're just trying to enjoy life now." [02:35]) and the privilege of a life in the FDNY.
• Learning from Great Leaders: Dugan shares the lasting lessons from his first captain, Dan Marshall, whose approach combined technical competence and deep humanity.
  • Story: "You'd walk in a building and before you got out, he’d say, how many apartments per floor? How many mailboxes? Was there a front fire escape? How many stories? Was there a basement entrance...?" [04:50]
  • Leadership Style: Situational awareness, constant teaching, and never wanting to disappoint the leader.

2. The Power of Culture & Company Pride

• Peer-to-Peer Accountability: Stories illustrate the importance of informal leadership within the company, sharing the powerful example of a senior firefighter running a private drill in the kitchen after a call to correct a peer’s mistake—without the captain present.
  • "He was not going to embarrass the member in front of the officer. It was only the truck guys, and only they were allowed in the kitchen to talk about it… He said to me after that, you know what I told you about drilling too much? Forget about it. Keep drilling." [15:02]
• Leadership & Followership: Humility to receive feedback and courage to give it are both essential for a high-performing team.
  • "That's leadership on both ends. That's leadership and that's followership." [17:04]

3. The 1% Principle in the Fire Service

• Who Sets the Standard?: Drawing from an old Greek story, Dugan describes the fire service’s “1%”—those who lead by training, drilling, setting the tone, and picking up the others.
  • "In the fire service, we have the same thing. We have the 1 percenters...those are the brothers and sisters who want to train, want to drill. If you go to a run at 3am and something happens, they're not going to bed. They're going to have a drill." [11:07]
• Every Member Has Value: "Everyone has something to offer...bring those to the forefront and make sure that everybody knows what their value is to the unit." [15:04]

4. Developing Leaders at Every Level

• Empowering Senior Firefighters: Encourage peer leadership by giving senior members authority and responsibility.
  • “We need to empower the senior firefighter…who wears that company patch with such pride…If they continue to make a mistake and don’t get better, that's where there's a leadership failure.” [19:23]
• Rookie Leadership: Dugan empowers all members to speak up for the good of the team.
  • "If you see something, say something. You're a leader. You are empowered to be a part of this company. You are protecting the brothers and sisters. Say something.” [20:49]

5. "It's Your Turn"—Expecting the Next Generation to Keep the Flame Alive

• Questioning Traditions: The role of the new generation isn’t just to comply but to ask “why”—and improve.
  • Memorable anecdote: Why did the FDNY always wash the wheels after every call? “Because when the horses pooped in the street, it got on the wheels...But they still kept washing the wheels after the horses were long gone. The question 'why' is a great question.” [23:44]
• Picking Up the Torch: "It's your turn to start getting in there and picking up the torch and figuring out how you are going to make the fire department better to serve your citizens and your members." [24:38]
• Leaders Must Model Consistency: "Leaders who are in today have to do the right thing all the time and be willing to take the heat for it." [26:30]

6. 9/11, Courage, & Lasting Scars

• Personal 9/11 Story: Dugan shares his firsthand account of 9/11, the loss of friends and colleagues, and appearing in the iconic “U.S. News Under Siege” photo.
  • "That guy on the ladder is me." [29:46]
  • On sacrifice: “Ray Murphy survived the first collapse... and took one other guy with him and they walked towards the second building and were killed in the second collapse. That to me is dedication.” [29:55]
• FDNY as a Brotherhood of Legacy: Stories highlight generations of connections and the ripple effect of proud, competent firehouses.

7. Leadership Development at FDNY

• Formal Programs: FDNY’s multilayered leadership development, including six-week First Line Supervisors Training (“FLIPS”) and ongoing captain/management programs.
  • On building improvement: “If you do stuff in your firehouse that works for you and you don't share it...you're missing the opportunity. Making people think about ways you can make the job better for all of us.” [41:09]
• Evolving With the Job: Curricula grow and adjust as new laws, technology, and knowledge arise. The FDNY also shares useful hacks (e.g., using hydrant maps more efficiently).

8. Mental Health in the Fire Service: Breaking the Stigma

• Personal Battle & Importance of Help: Dugan shares candidly about the toll 9/11 took on his mental health, marriage, and family—crediting counseling with saving his life.
  • Powerful quote: “If it wasn't for counseling and help after 9/11, I don't think I would still be married... That was the hardest punch I ever took in my life—my daughter coming to me and saying, 'Daddy, why are you always mad?'" [46:34]
  • On seeking support: "It took me three counselors to find the right one... My wife used to call him my boyfriend." [48:42]
• Saving Families and Careers: "Counseling and therapy can save your marriage, could save your career. If that's not enough incentive, I don't know what is." [53:15]
• Changing Attitudes: Progress is happening, but slowly. "We're moving in the right direction, but at a snail's pace." [46:34]
• Commitment Matters: "Nobody’s willing to put the work in for their relationship, for their marriage, for their family... You have to be committed." [57:00]

9. Commitment, Legacy, and Example

• Leave it Better: Inspired by his father’s lesson at the beach: “Always leave it better than you found it...Commit to being a positive influence.” [58:20]
• Notable Advice:
  • “Be a good example. Commitment to the organization, to your company, to your family, your blood family, and to your firehouse family.” [59:06]
  • “Your commitment will be your legacy. It will be what they remember you for.” [59:39]

10. Leadership Advice for Young Leaders

• “Promote Yourself”:
  • “Be the leader. Be the boss. Be one... Above the other, you have to be that leader, that mentor above being that friend. You can't look the other way at bad behavior.” [60:39]
  • On mistakes: “If you make a mistake, own it, buy it, wear it proudly. Yeah, I screwed that up. That was all on me.” [61:59]

11. Handling Criticism & Persevering

• Owning Your Actions:
  • “If somebody wants to blame you for everything that ever happened, that's fine. I know what I did. The men and women...know the truth. And sooner or later it will come back that he knows what he did.” [63:22]
• Keep Moving Forward: Cites the “man in the arena” and Til Valhalla: “Everything is acceptable except quitting. Just keep moving forward. We always had a statement: ‘Up the field.’ Up the field just means keep moving forward.” [64:37]

12. “Are You Listening?”

• Learning and Application: Dugan challenges listeners to not just attend classes but to really listen, absorb, and pass it on.
  • "Are you listening? Are you seeing? Are you paying attention and are you getting better?" [66:12]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What you are is your gift from God. And what you make of yourself is your gift to God. How you better the fire service is your return gift.” [00:01], [69:12]
• “Peer-to-peer accountability, peer-to-peer leadership... That's leadership on both ends.” [17:04]
• “If you see something, say something. You're a leader.” [20:49]
• “It's your turn to start getting in there and picking up the torch... Now you have to decide what you want to do and where you want to go with that.” [24:38]
• “There is never a wrong time to do the right thing. Even if nobody's watching.” [26:30]
• On mental health: “That was the hardest punch I ever took in my life—my daughter, six years old, saying, ‘Daddy, why are you always mad?’” [46:34]
• “Leave the job better than you found it. Commit to being a positive influence.” [58:20]
• “Be the leader. Be the boss. Be one.” [60:39]
• “Everything is acceptable except quitting. Just keep moving forward.” [64:37]

Key Timestamps

• [02:35] – Dugan’s background, family, FDNY career origins
• [04:50] – Learning situational awareness and leadership from Capt. Dan Marshall
• [11:07] – The “1%” of fire service and motivation
• [15:02] – Peer-led kitchen table drill story
• [20:49] – Every member as a leader; “if you see something, say something”
• [23:44] – “It’s your turn,” challenging the next generation to pick up the torch
• [29:46] – Dugan’s 9/11 personal experience; iconic photo
• [36:22] – Formal and informal leadership development at FDNY
• [46:34] – Mental health, seeking counseling after 9/11
• [58:20] – Commitment and legacy; leave it better than you found it
• [60:39] – Advice to young leaders: “promote yourself”
• [64:37] – Keep moving forward; “up the field” philosophy
• [66:12] – “Are you listening?” – importance of applying lessons
• [69:12] – Closing thought: your gift to the fire service

Leadership Challenge

• [67:35] – Dugan nominates John Walters (Rescue 1) for a future episode: “He was horrifically injured and came back from that to still work to make the fire service better, to make safety better... That is leadership from right there in the trenches.” [67:35]

Final Takeaways

• Excellence requires constant learning, humility, and a willingness to both lead and to be led.
• Mental health, peer accountability, and legacy matter as much as technical skill.
• Every firefighter, at every level, has a role in advancing the fire service.
• True leadership means never settling, never stopping, and always striving to “leave it better.”

For more leadership conversations, continue tuning in to The Kitchen Table.