← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 96: Trisha Wolford, Fire Chief - Perspective & Gratitude
01:11:46
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Perspective and gratitude. Having a perspective of something outside of your world, your department, and then being grateful what you have, knowing that what you have hopefully will always produce more. But getting comfortable with, you know, not always want, want, want that sometimes things are really good. So perspective is hard to gain if you don't get out and gratitude gets forgotten very easily.
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The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table Podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire chiefs, civilians, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders. Welcome to the 96th episode of the Kitchen Table. Today we welcome Fire Chief Tricia Wolford of the Anne Arundel County Fire Department in Maryland, and today's conversation is revolved around many topics, one of those topics being conversations at the Kitchen Table between the Chief and the crews Tricia Wolford is the Fire Chief of the Anne Arundel County Fire Department in Maryland, one of the largest combination fire departments in the country. Anne Arundel county is 580 square miles covered by 31 fire stations, which serves a population of over 600,000 community members. Chief Wolford is responsible for over 1,000 career firefighters, approximately 500 operational volunteer firefighters, 950 administrative volunteers, 34 fire communications operators, and 58 civilian support staff. Chief Wolford was hired as an entry level firefighter in 2006 where she operated as a firefighter paramedic until her assignment to the Fire Marshal's office in 2011. She spent seven months training at the Anne Arundel County Police Academy and was sworn in as a law enforcement officer in May 2012. She was then assigned to the Fire and Explosives Investigation Unit where she promoted to lieutenant in 2014. Chief Wolford was a member of the Anne Arundel County Tactical Medic SWAT program for four years. In December 2015, she accepted the position of Deputy Fire Chief and Fire Marshal with the Bozeman Fire department in Bozeman, Montana. In 2017, Chief Wolfert joined the Spokane Fire Department in Washington as the Assistant Fire Chief overseeing full operations of the department, and In January of 2019, she returned to Anne Arundel county to fulfill her dream of becoming the Fire Chief in her home department. Chief Wohlford is a graduate of the Executive Fire Officer Program at the National Fire Academy and a graduate of the IAFC's Fire Service Executive Development Institute. She is the current President and Board Chair of the International association of Fire Chiefs. She is the Vice president for the IAFC's Metropolitan Fire Chiefs Association Executive Board and an Executive Board member for the first net authority in 2025. She was appointed by the governor of Maryland to the state EMS Advisory Council. Good afternoon, Chief. Thank you for being a guest today. How are you?
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A
Good afternoon. I'm great. How are you?
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B
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. No, we talked about this offline, but I'll just say it here. I only. I don't have any of the control of the guests, if you will, on the show. Our guests are simply. I do have control, actually, because I either publish it or I don't.
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A
You let me in the call. So you have some.
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B
I did. True, true. Thank you for that. Our guests challenged the future guests, but I had to reach out to you specifically. So you are my leadership challenge is what we'll call it. And it was because you were a guest virtually at an academy I was a part of in Seattle a couple years ago. And like, you and I were talking, a chief and I were messaging saying, we gotta have the chief come up and do a talk up here. Because her message, where she carries herself, all of that was like. And we agreed. We're like, yes, yes. Well, two years went by, we never brought you up. So here we are.
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A
I want to say this is close.
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B
Yeah. You know we're close, right? I mean, no one needs to know how far away. I mean, by computer, we're right here.
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A
Yes.
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B
So I just want to say thank you for being a guest today. And so a question I have is, what were your ties or what are your ties to? Whether it be the Foster School of Business or Seattle Fire Department, what were your ties? To be a guest back two years ago.
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A
So really the tie was to Harold, the chief in Seattle. Chief Scoggins should be probably more official. Right. So as a Metro chief, like you said in my intro, serving on the Metro board as the current vice president, in June, I'll move into the president role for Metro chiefs. And he's just one of those chiefs that we got along really well. We believe in kind of the same tenants of leadership. And then at the end of the day, just like a nice guy. And so we talk, we chat back and forth, we share emails, as all chiefs do when you kind of find your core group. And. And then one day he said, hey, you know, what do you think? Would you mind? And I was like, what an honor. And I thought, how progressive for Washington State Department to be having their own leadership academy like that and partnering with a big university. And so, yeah, it was my honor. So I think I've done it two, maybe three times now.
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B
Oh. So they so returning guests every. Every year at the.
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A
I know.
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B
Oh, awesome. Awesome.
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A
Yeah. And the university is so nice. They. They like this really nice thank you letter and, you know, just. Just really cool. And to see everybody on screen and have such a diverse group, it's like. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember the last time your group, I was so excited to do it because the first time was so fun that we, like, moved everything on my calendar so I could do it.
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B
Awesome.
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A
Awesome. Yeah.
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B
Oh, it was. Yeah, it was, it was. It was very inspiring. Like I said from that two years ago, and even this podcast was going at that time, I should have just reached out at that. But here we are two and a half years later. Wait, two and a half, Three years. Two years. Almost a two years later, I finally reached out with an email. So thank you.
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A
Don't. Don't things improve with age?
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B
They do. I thought so. Or I think so. So here we are. Here we are. This conversation is better simply because it was just. It was delaying aging. Yeah, yeah, we've been aging this conversation. So thank you. So the next question I have real quick, before we just dive into the conversation, is you started in Maryland, correct? You came out this way. So you were in Spokane, Bozeman, close to me. You came out to Spokane, which is four hours from where I'm at. So what brought you? Do you have ties over here?
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Fire service.
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That's it.
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Okay, that's it. I'll give you the short version. You know, 10 years here in Anne Arundel, very hungry to do more. And I love this department, but I was working for a department that still probably suffers from the same thing. A lot of other departments where information is power and when you're craving those things. At the time, I was an EFO at the National Fire Academy. And, you know, you have projects to do and, you know, I'm asking for department numbers and figures and can I work on this project? Can I do this, can I do that? And I got a lot of no's. Maybe talk to me late. You know, it was just the culture. That's. It's not throwing shade on any administration. It was just the culture at the time. And this was, you know, 2014, you know, right in that timeframe, 2015. So it's not a bad thing. It's just what it was. And all of our departments, you know, evolve culturally in some way or another. And so I ended up getting a coach because I said, I'm going to come back and be chief of this department, but I don't have any skills. I was a lieutenant. I was a very new lieutenant, and most of my duties were law enforcement, like you said, my bio. I was in the police academy. I was doing fire investigation, explosives. So it's not like I was out running in the station and. And things like that. And I just thought, man, I could maybe do something not better, but different. And so I got a coach and I said, what skills do I need so I can come back here and be the chief? And we divided it administratively and operationally. And she goes, okay, well, you're going to have to move. And I said, well, clearly, yeah, you're right. I'm not going to get it here. Because you know how in your departments say you're a captain or a lieutenant, You've got to be in that rank for, let's just say, a captain two years before you're eligible to promote to battalion chief. And then you've got to wait for the testing cycle, so it might be three years, and then you don't do great on the list. So maybe it's four years, and now it's five years. And so at a minimum, I was going to have to wait 18 more years before I was eligible to be a fire chief, meaning I was going to reach a division chief or a deputy chief rank. And. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to be so tired. Literally, that's all I could think about is I did the math on my age because I got into the fire service a little bit later. I had a career prior to that, and I went, oh, my God, tack on how old I am now. Add 18 years, then just begin being a fire chief. I'm like, no way. No way in hell I'm going to have the energy to run this department. And so she coached me up. We looked for jobs. So administratively, city fire marshal, deputy chief in Bozeman, Montana, really fit. I. I'm not joking. I applied to a bunch of other positions, and that Bozeman job application sat on my kitchen counter until the last day. Because I'm like, I live in Maryland. Who goes to Montana? That was so far away.
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B
Wow.
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A
And I put it in and went through the process. The fire chief there, his name is Josh Waldo. He's actually a prior IFC president. Amazing guy. He had just gotten the chief job there about six months prior. He came from Tennessee, and through all the NFA EFO connections, I was able to kind of vet him. He was able to vet me. I went through the whole process and went there, and we'll just say picked up all the administrative skills and then kind of got recruited by. At the time, Brian Schaefer was fire chief in Spokane. And I called the coach and I go, hey, operational skills. She goes, yeah, we're gonna have to start working on that. And you know, but you, you try to be respectful, you know, it's not like you're gonna use a department. Right. I, I genuinely was vested and interested in Bozeman. And then she's like, but you're on an election cycle. So I had really either three years to get back to a mayor, which we call a county executive here, or for a new person to come in. And I didn't know which was going to happen. So either I was going to get the job in three years or I was going to get the job in seven years. So I go to Spokane. I end up taking the job in Spokane because it had operationally what I needed to learn. And I told Chief Shaffer, I said, I would love to be chief here. Right. Whenever you're done, however many years that is. But Anne Arundel county is my home. It's my dream to be chief there. It's the only reason I kind of went on this, like, road trip. And I certainly didn't expect to end up in your neck of the woods. And I said, I will only leave you if Anne Arundel county needs a new fire chief, meaning they get a new mayor. And I said, but it's not going to happen. The election's in a year. So regardless, I got a year. It's never going to happen. You know, one, a change in political figure and two, that I would actually get the job. Well, wow. Lo and behold, exactly a year later, with the help of my unions and interviewing and so to the date. So as a. A rookie going into the academy, I was hired on January 28th of 2006. I left on January 28th of 2016, so exactly on my 10 year anniversary as a lieutenant. And then I was sworn in that same date of 2019. So really, so really bizarre. Right, Because I left as a lieutenant.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Three years later. I will just say skipped captain, battalion chief, division chief, deputy chief, assistant chief, and now I come back as the fire chief. Yeah, really, really bizarre and amazing.
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B
It is amazing. So January 28th, is it hold soft spot or a D spot? I guess in your heart? January 20th, special day. That is awesome. Well, I want to stay there for a second then, because I want to ask a question on. You knew that you wanted to be chief. Like that was something that you were aspiring for and you were open about.
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A
I didn't know in the beginning.
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B
Not in the beginning, but we'll say. When you were a lieutenant, though, you said that you wanted to be chief one day. It was something that you.
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A
Yes.
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Hired a coach for. Okay, so a question I have there is, I don't know if non traditional is is the word, but.
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A
Yeah, that's it.
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Yeah. Okay. That's it. Okay.
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Because not a lot of offensive.
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B
Yeah. Okay. There you go.
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Some people find, still find it really offensive.
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B
Yes.
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A
I'm very honest. I was never a captain. I was never a battalion chief. I was never a division chief. Like, you know, in my title in Bozeman was deputy. Chief. My title in Spokane was assistant chief. And I listen like a hawk to captains and battalion chiefs because I'm like, I was never you. I don't know what that feels like. So when I make decisions that affect those ranks, I try and listen really hard, even as lieutenant because I really didn't spend a lot of time riding the right front seat because of my background in law enforcement.
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B
Wow. Okay. So that, that, that resonates because I'm a captain now and I haven't served as a battalion chief nor as a temporary provisional acting, none of that. A deputy chief position opened up in the training division and training is kind of my background where I hope to become one day, maybe chief of department of training or something like that. Yeah, but you say the word offensive, and I wasn't going to say that up front, but I, I, my application wasn't looked at or it was looked at, didn't get an interview and it was like, we'll say offensive to some individuals, like why, how dare this individual skip a rank to try to become deputy? So what, what, So I guess the question that I have is because I love it, I'll start with there. I, I love it because what it comes down to in my eyes is not, we hear it all the time. Leadership is not a rank. Right. We hear that from people. But then when some people say things like it's not a rank, but then kind of their thought process and the way they look down at some people will say or, or topics. It's like with the way you think, though, you do believe that there's a rank in leadership, meaning like it's not about what you did, what you do, your aspirations, your skill sets, the way you perceive or portray the way you talk about something. You, you, you, you do believe that you have to have rank to be leadership, you know, and so but it's more about what you said. You found out what skills you need, and it's about obtaining those skills to then be effective in whatever rank is, is what you aspire, not about what rank you hold for a certain amount of time. Because let's just go this far, Chief, how many times have we seen individuals that held ranks but were, we'll say, less effective or unaffective because they just didn't have the skill sets, but they had the rank. So, yeah, with what you're saying, it's so non traditional, but it's admiring, I guess, is what I'll say, because you were very intense.
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A
Thank you.
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Right. It was very intentional about what you wanted. You needed.
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Very calculated.
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Yeah.
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A
And I can't believe it actually works. I mean, that's the freakiest part. And, and I will say, because a lot of people are like, that is non traditional. But you also had to take in consideration my, my lifestyle. I didn't have to worry about small children and uprooting them from schools. You know, that was probably the biggest thing I get questioned all the time on. And I had to be cognizant of managing my finances and the system not managing the finances of, you know, vested and, you know, that type of thing. Because when you leave at 10 years, you know, it's, it's not like you're walking out with your 25 year retirement. So some people are like, that's so brave. Some people are like, that's so stupid. I, I just felt like at my core, either I can control my time in the fire service or a system can control my time. And again, that's not in a negative way because both work really well. But I knew how antsy I was and I know myself well enough to know if I don't feed that, it's probably going to get me in trouble.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And we know a lot of firefighters like that and officers that. It's like they're, they're almost smarter than the job, but they love the job so much. It's like they're more intelligent than what the system allows them to project.
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And agreed.
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You know, and it's like, okay, let's use our own people. Let's. Like, you're a captain, you're probably ready for training. Right. If that's what you love and you specialize you. If not, you're probably smart enough to get yourself there very quickly if you were to get the job. Right. You don't fake it till you make. It does have its own little role in all of this.
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B
Agreed. Agree. I agree heavily. I had a chief one time, a mentor that says fake. What did he say? He said fake it till you make it is not necessarily untrue if you really aspire to make it there because you're actively working on it. So you almost have to just be the position, even though you're not, because you're going to be there one day. You see it, you're working toward it.
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A
So it's like you signed up for the accelerated class, right. Instead of taking an entire semester, you're in a three week summer accelerated class and you better pass.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You better fly. Yeah. A real quick question I want to lean on just a little bit further is how did you know that coaching was the way to go?
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A
I didn't even know how to get there. I cold called this woman I had. I'll leave her just as, as that, this, this woman, this professional. I had seen her teach a class. I liked her affect when she walked in the room. She was bold. She's very quickly, professionally, aggressively, which I'm not a big fan of that word, aggressive, but shut down some male naysayers in a room full of young officers. And I was like, oh, she's impactful and, and she was in the HR world. She was in the business across the country. You know, she knew about fire chief jobs. You know, she knew kind of, she knew stuff. And I had her information from sitting in class. You know, they always say if you ever need anything. So I was like, well, yeah, so I did. I pulled her number up, I called her and I said, hey, this is my name. I sat in one of your classes. I said, you said if I ever need anything. And I go, and I'm that person and this is what I need. Will you do this with me?
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B
Wow.
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A
And she was like, okay. Like it's not like she was a coach.
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B
Sure. A question I have now, I know I'm leaning on this further because I think it's fascinating because I feel like I'm just going to throw this out there. We, we in the fire service, we get, this is not meant to be negative. This is just meant to be. What I think is we get so culturally in tune with the path, we'll call it quote unquote, the path. And if you're not going through the quote unquote path, it's you're doing it incorrectly. Right. Whether it be you got to sit in this ring for X amount of years, you got to sit in this ring for X amount of years. And what you did is like, you really. You literally found out what it literally needs or what you need to get into these other roles. Because we'll just say these paths, it holds some people back sometimes. Would you agree?
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A
Yes, yes, and a thousand percent. And it's very frustrating. Even in my own system, it's very frustrating because it's like, you know, it's not just like, well, you're the chief. Just change it. No, there's like city codes and county codes and legislation, and some of these things are locked in union contracts. Right. Some of these things are impossible to change, and you really run the risk. And. And I've been in this position of offending those who have worked really hard, who are in the next rank eligible. And it's. What I continue to say is this isn't at a risk to you and what you've done. This is for you to prove to yourself that you are just as good as anybody anywhere else. And if you're going to challenge me because you're scared about competition, you're not ready. Yeah, right. Like just that very first step of competing against unknowns for a position at whatever rank. Right. Why are you intimidated that a lieutenant could be a battalion chief? Right. If you're next in line to be a battalion chief, then you better be the best damn person I got. So if that is already a problem.
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B
Yeah. Then there's a problem.
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A
Yes.
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B
Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, thank you. You define that so well. I know we could unpack that forever, but we'll move to another topic because I think it's.
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A
Sure.
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B
I just think it's so. As you know, you've heard the term we do things because we've always done it that way. Right. And there's truth to that. And there's. It's good to lean on that sometimes, but not in everything that we do. It's good to have change. It's good to challenge the way we've always done things. I'm not say, saying we. We just changed for the sake of change. But sometimes if we explore different ways of navigating something, we can explore better ways. We'll say. Of navigating that same issue. We'll say, well, anyways, thank you for that. I think it's. It's fascinating that you were able to lean on a coach. The Executive Leadership Academy. There's actual coaching that takes place in those where you sit with executive coaches and you talk about career planning. You talk about what your next step. I was a lieutenant when I went to that executive Leadership academy. And if you use. If you see the word executive leadership academy, you don't think lieutenant. Right. You think of battalion chief, you think
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of chief officer, Upper management.
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Yeah.
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Quote, yes.
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B
So I was very fortunate to sit in that, and I thought that was really cool because coaching, again, is not something we hear about when firefighters get coaching. What do you mean? What is that? So. Well, let's talk about this, Chief, because I want to be, again, 100 honest with this part. When we exchanged emails back in December, I sent you what I'll call the. The script, if you will. And I'm just gonna say it. I'm just gonna say it out loud here because this is really fascinating, and I want to say thank you ahead of time. Before I even say it, you emailed me back and you said, yeah, I'm kind of bored with those topics. And that's exactly what you said. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is. This is pretty cool. And then if you said again, these words, if I truly wanted to talk leadership, you want to talk about conversations that you actually have with the cruise. And I'm so, first of all, thank you for that. I never know how much I can obviously lean on on this podcast, right? Because if it gets published, you know, certain individuals, you know, will say or can't say certain things. So I obviously respect that. So thank you for willing to just open it up here, because we'll go as deep as we can. So the question I have right now, Chief, just to lean on, kind of your comments are, if you were at your fire station right now, what's a topic that would be brought up?
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A
Oh, right now. The uniform policy. Uniform.
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B
So what do you mean? Why is that, like, what's so big? We're going through that right now, too, actually. But why? Why is that a big deal?
- [24:25]
A
Well, and if there are fire chiefs listening, or I should say aspirational fire chiefs that see that in their future, just know, as a fire chief, you will learn more about uniform clothing material, stitching, embroidery. You're going to be a clothing expert as a fire chief. And what I always say affectionately, and I will certainly answer your question, is uniforms are the emotional hug that firefighters are always looking for. Because while you say, I'll just say collectively, and that includes me, you don't care, right? You just get up in the morning, you throw on your uniform, you go to work, or you get to your locker, you put it on, or you run a call, switch it out. But uniforms are highly contested, right? How the job shirt Feels. Is the T shirt itchy? Why did we have T shirts with the tag and now there's no tag? How come we can't order these in a tall? Why is the inseam on these pants feel like this? How come the blue's not the same color? Blue, like, very true.
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B
It all resonates right now. It is.
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A
And then we get it right, and y' all don't want to wear it. You want to wear whatever you want to wear.
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B
It's true. It is true. And so where do you go with that?
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A
Because you're the fire chief, the conversation at the table right now would be, why can't we have shorts? Why won't you approve the Carhartt hooded sweatshirt? You know, what's going on with the station pride patches? Why wouldn't you let them wear it on our uniform instead of just putting it on the apparatus? And things got a little squirrely a couple weeks ago, and I kind of had to. I was really hoping the station officers would police it a little bit harder and. But I take responsibility because I don't think I gave them tight enough policies so that they all felt comfortable policing together. Like, that's what I. You know, for me, the policy is, how do I make that lieutenant's job easier for them to go? There's no confusion in the wording. Right? Or, God forbid, we didn't have any wording, and you guys are like, yeah, whatever. I don't know. I'm gonna tell a shift they can wear this. The captain's gonna tell B shift they can wear this. So it's a combination of. We had to tighten some wording, and at the same time, things were just getting out of hand. People wearing things that aren't approved and safety issues. And so. So that would be another one. And, you know, when I sent you that email back to say, hey, I'm bored with these topics, one, I'm really grateful that you were receptive to that. Absolutely. Because for me, when I said the coffee table talk, like, things that happen, those to me are like the true moments of leadership. Because as a chief, as the leader in the room, the highest ranking, however you want to say it, firefighters ask really inform, tough questions, and I love that. It's almost like being on the dais at a city council meeting. You know, it's like the public eye is watching. But as a leader, are you going to be willing to look that firefighter in the face and give them an honest, clean answer, even if it's a little dirty? Right. But, like, an honest answer, or are you going to sit there and say, I don't know. When you do know, you know, we can't really talk about that when you could. There's very little things I can't talk about, like, very little. Right. A lawsuit, a personnel issue, a discipline, you know, but even sometimes those things. I'll go, well, what do you. What are you. What are you hearing? You tell me.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I'll say back to them, okay, you're kind of 50. 50 on the facts, right? Yeah, I won't. I'm not saying anything or I'm going, okay, you guys are doing your research, right? That's. That's pretty darn good. But that's, to me, why I thought. Coffee table conversation is, I think, one of the hardest things for fire chiefs. And if you have a station that doesn't like you or there's really stuff going on and they're like kind of the chiefs on the outs for a couple months. You know how you go those ebb and flows. The hardest thing to do for a fire chief is to drag your butt into that station and honestly let them beat you down and either take it or push back, because you have the information to push back.
- [28:50]
B
And so you do that. Yeah. So you'll. So here's the question is, when do you visit fire stations? Is it.
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A
Whenever I can.
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B
Whenever you can. Right. And that can't. I can only imagine. That's not easy. 31 fire stations, thousand personnel. Yeah, but how do you. Like, Literally, how can you.
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A
So I always. I always go by myself. In the beginning, they didn't want me to go by myself. Like, have a XO with you, have the chief of staff bring a. Another white shirt. I kind of like a sneak attack. Not to catch them doing anything, but.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Just because I genuinely love the stations. So, like, you know, I'll drive to a station, I'll clear one afternoon. My assistant will clear the calendar. I'll drive to the station. Now, you know, like, let's say I go to station 23. Well, now I can't go to the stations around it because they've all called. Chief's out, right. She's on the move. So now I gotta drive all the way across town to the other battalion.
- [29:42]
B
Yeah.
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A
Right. So I can maybe get three or four stations in an afternoon. And you can't just be there for 15 minutes. It takes about an hour for everybody to really open up and get comfortable. The best thing is if you get a call, I'm all like, move over.
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B
Right.
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A
I gotta get in the back too.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you'll ride the call with them?
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A
Yeah. Are you kidding me? It's the funnest part of this job.
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B
That's true. I mean, yeah, I don't see it often, but I love it.
- [30:07]
A
Yeah. The officers are always like, get in the front seat. I'm like, oh, no, right. Wrong girl.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah.
- [30:14]
A
I am honest about. I am an administrative. That. Right. My job is the fire chief. Right. You all know my history. I've never been a captain. I don't deserve to sit in that seat. You. Right. I'm all gloving up, getting ready to do my paramedic stuff, so.
- [30:27]
B
Well, here's a question for you too. I know we're going to backtrack a little bit, but you mentioned it. So you're back at Anne Arundel now.
- [30:34]
A
Yeah.
- [30:34]
B
Right. And so you said that. So you weren't a captain. You didn't sit in the right seat. How does that conversation come up with your members? Like, oh, chief's back. But she wasn't. I know you said something very key, which I'll highlight.
- [30:46]
A
In the beginning.
- [30:47]
B
Yeah. You listen to people, right. We know that's a trait that we all need no matter where you're at. So you said they did in the beginning. So what does that mean?
- [30:53]
A
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Not enough dark, smoky hallways. Yeah.
- [30:57]
B
Okay.
- [30:57]
A
Yeah.
- [30:58]
B
How about now, though? How did you navigate through the years to now? We'll say you got. Whether you got trust now. People are like, okay, it didn't. Because you. You changed culture now, which is great. You. You create a culture where. Yeah. For some. True. For some. And so obviously a challenge. Right. Coming back knowing all that. But you were up for that challenge, right? How long you been chief now? You've been chief over there for let's.
- [31:21]
A
Almost eight years.
- [31:22]
B
Eight years.
- [31:24]
A
Almost eight, yeah.
- [31:25]
B
Wow. So obviously, yeah, challenges, but, you know, growth for you and your department and the members and I don't even have a question, but.
- [31:35]
A
Well, I'll. I'll tell you what it is. You know, in the beginning, I met with every station on every shift and every bureau office. So it's like 100 plus visits because we were a 24, 72. So 31 stations times four, plus the five bureau offices with all of their respective leaders. And I went in and I had sent an email ahead of time, so they had time to think, sent it out to a whole department, basically. You know, tell me three things you want to change and three things you don't want me to Put my hands on, don't touch. Keep it the same. Leave it alone, lady. Right. Like we're happy here. And every, I went to every station, I took notes in my book. I had like, you know, I just kept adding pages to this little book and, and then we put it all back out in a, basically in a survey to the department so we could just reiterate. And I said, I'm looking for the top three things. And I said, you can love me, you can hate me, you can not trust me, you can hate the sound of my voice. I said, but I'm going to get one of these things done. At least one of these things done. So mind your business, let me grind, let me do my job. Let me show you that I can do my job because that's the only way I'm going to do it right is through action. I mean, I can type all the emails and send department wide emails and, and do speeches in the public, but not until I actually actionably fix something like I would expect my firefighters to do. And, and I said, let me earn it. I know I gotta earn it. I'm not coming in here going, I'm the chief. And you know, I mean, I was 39, so I didn't know if people were pissed about my age. I was female. We hadn't had a female chief. I don't know, people were angry that I was female. You know, I wasn't a dark, smoky hallway firefighter. Right. I was a little bit of firefighter, more medic, more law enforcement, more investigations bureau, which we know is off to the side. Like, you know, I didn't, I went to more fires when the fires were out, you know, I didn't go on the other side. So it turns out a lot of people were like, how can you be a chief if you haven't been a really good firefighter, a really good captain? And at the end of the day, my job, money, relationships, safety, taking care of people, protecting our image.
- [33:53]
B
Yeah.
- [33:53]
A
So totally different skill set.
- [33:56]
B
So I agree.
- [33:56]
A
Than a firefighter.
- [33:57]
B
Yes. And I agree 1000% because yes, it's about what do you need to do at that position or that role. Because what's the saying is it's about when you get to that next role, you, it's a different role. Like when you're a firefighter, you're an expert firefighter. So when you go to the next role, you don't need to be an expert firefighter anymore because that's not your role anymore. You need to be the expert. We'll say leader, officer, manager, whatever you want to call it. So let's take the jump to the fire chief. Yes. You never will say Italian chief, captain, whatever, but your job is not to lead a three person crew. And so. But I think we get stuck on that a lot. Right? We get stuck on. You need the skill sets of the firefighter to fire chief. And it's like, no, because you're not the firefighter. Right. Yes, you do have to understand perspective. Yes, you do need to listen and learn. Absolutely. No one ever said you don't. You stop listening once you go to the next role. But we get stuck on that. And so what would you say is like, I don't even, I don't know how to best word my question.
- [34:56]
A
Not once have I said to one of my captains, when I was captain, I did it like this, right? Like battalion chief. Nope.
- [35:05]
B
Yeah.
- [35:05]
A
Lieutenant working on an engine or a truck or EMS supervisor. Nope. What I can say is I know your job enough to know that when you say, chief, we need this, or this would make it better, I know enough to know what you're talking about. But because I don't have an opinion on it because I didn't live that life, I'm probably just going to get it for you. Like, I. It's the most effective way for me to stay out of your business.
- [35:31]
B
Yes. I'm gonna say that the way you just said that is probably even better. Because now it's like, sure, you need that. I don't know your. But let's get it right. It's almost.
- [35:42]
A
If it's reasonable, if you can articulate it. And then at the end of the day it's like, okay, well, I can learn something from you. Like, I'm certainly not above that. Right. If you all say this is. Is how we're doing it, this is the most effective. Okay, great. How can I support you? Right.
- [35:58]
B
Support you. There you go. I love that. Great. How can I support you? Let's get it. Let's get. Make it happen. I love that. Let's talk about the balance of the relationship. Because this is kind of one of the topics that we went back and forth on. But going on that balance is obviously key. You can't just give everybody everything because there's a difference between needs and wants. What's critical, what's discretionary. We'll say, but you do want to balance what people want and what they actually need or don't need. Talk about the balance of all that. Or we'll talk about the balance of fire chief and union president.
- [36:33]
A
Juicy.
- [36:34]
B
Yeah, I know. So, like, there's. There's so much.
- [36:37]
A
So let's talk about the balance of wanton need and then union president. Chief. Yes. You know, you can't. Right. I mean, the fire department budget. I'm very lucky here. I have a very good budget. I don't have amazing budgets like some other departments, but, you know, it's very easy to articulate. Every single one of us goes home to a family, and every single one of us, you know, wants to be able to do whatever they can in their own home. And, you know, I tell my folks, hey, you want to remodel your living room in your kitchen? You probably can't do it all at once. Right. What do you want to do first? What do you absolutely need? Right. The refrigerators on the fritz. Let's start with the kitchen. Right. Maybe you can't buy all of your appliances at once. Like, same thing with the fire department. Would I love to have everything? Yes. But, you know, can I afford to bring in, you know, this many new staff positions or this many operational positions? No. I want that just like anybody else. Do I want to redo five firehouses because they're all old as hell and beat down. Yeah. But I can only do one at a time. You know, it's like, you know, don't kill the messenger. This is just the way life is.
- [37:45]
B
Right.
- [37:46]
A
So wants versus needs. I think everybody in my department does a really good job of articulating one versus the other. Sometimes it's fun to get a want instead of a need. Sure. You know, but it's. You just have to manage it. I think the bigger part of want versus need is managing expectations. That, to me, is the most important piece. I'm always for ask, ask. But I always say, don't be offended if somebody tells you no.
- [38:18]
B
Right.
- [38:19]
A
Right. You never ask for anything and don't expect to get one or the other. Right. If you're going to ask and expect to get yes, that's not the right question.
- [38:26]
B
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Especially for can't get a yes and everything. In fact, we'll get no's a lot more, probably. And it just. It is, I guess, in there somewhere. One yes and five no's is, if you look at it from the right lens, is a. Is a win. It can be.
- [38:40]
A
And there's different no's. Right. They're like. Like shorts. Let's go back to our clothes.
- [38:44]
B
Okay.
- [38:44]
A
Shorts. I said shorts for me, as a fire chief are a no. I'm not going there. There's other things we need.
- [38:51]
B
Yes.
- [38:52]
A
That cost equal to that dollar amount. I'm just a no. And then after a couple years, I actually reframed it and I go, you know what? I'm not going to tell you no on shorts. I'm trying to be a better person. But what I am going to tell you is you all, as a group of whoever, firefighters, officers, union, whoever really wants this, you all write me a proposal on socks and shoes. And when we can agree on socks and shoes, then we can agree on shorts.
- [39:23]
B
Okay. There you go. There you go. So start here and then. Well, yeah, I haven't seen it yet. Okay. Okay. I haven't seen it yet. We'll be good with no shorts.
- [39:32]
A
But so. And you know, sometimes the no is a temporary no. Like, not this year, but make a run at it next year. Just give it to me two months sooner so I can actually consider it.
- [39:41]
B
That's a good point. That's a good point. And yeah, the management of expectations of cruise. Because sometimes. Let's just throw it out there. We, we, you know, sometimes the boots on the ground don't understand deadlines will say, you know, there's certain times of the year where the executive team can entertain an idea or not. Right. I mean, that's.
- [39:59]
A
So that's like if somebody were to ask me right now for something like, hey, we want to do a new program. It's going to cost 150,000. I just submitted the budget. Like, you're basically the first to ask for next fiscal year. We're a whole year off. So, you know, and maybe. But see, I kind of, I think I should be more responsible for that. Like, maybe I should message the department more so they understand. Understand the asking months are June to December. Like, and then I think, well, do you guys really care? I'm not sure. Is that just another email that you're like, ugh, why is she emailing again?
- [40:34]
B
Yeah, and you're right. Because I don't know. I don't know. Well, and that, that's the thing. We all love communication until we don't love communication. Right? But you bring a very interesting point because, you know, we should know or we should at least manage our expectations. You talked about that a few minutes ago. Is we need to manage our ability to not get. So we'll use the word offended with a no or not this time or whatever. Right. Because some of that's on us. You say, as a fire chief, maybe I should just message the. The want period or the you know, proposal, period. Sure. I mean, yeah, maybe, but at what point is it firefighters taken upon themselves to say, you know what? This was a bad time, but we. We like to put blame on other people sometimes. Right? And. I don't know. I just. It's. Sometimes our own expectations are unrealistic. I'll just throw that out there sometimes. Sometimes.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah. Well, and because we are a occupation that is a lifestyle. Right? It's a lifestyle occupation, things always feel more personal because no matter what, there is an emotional tie to what we do, which has its pros, but it also has its. Its cons that when I say no, that's a business decision, and we forget that I'm a CEO. You. It's a corporation. Our client is the community member. Right.
- [41:54]
B
Like, we.
- [41:55]
A
We are run as a business, but if you say that, that probably offends people that I just said that because we're a business that is laced with tradition and emotion, which is fine, but you have to manage the layers of that appropriately.
- [42:11]
B
I agree 100%. The way you said that. I agree 100%. How do you teach people that? How do you. How do you teach people to manage those? I mean, I know a lot of this is. We'll say company officer responsibility, we'll say to manage expectations of the firehouse. But it's very cultural too, right? When new people get hired, they. We. We teach them the norms. Right. Of how the organization is run. Like, if they grow up in the organization and have these expectations of X, it was probably because we taught them that. And I asked this of. A lot of the guests will say, so this is one of those generic topics from. I guess it's like, what does Anne Arundel do to build leaders? Meaning. Right. We don't do a very good job in the fire service of building Intentional.
- [42:56]
A
I'm not doing a great job either.
- [42:58]
B
But. But, like. But we. We need that.
- [43:00]
A
I'm disappointed that I'm not a leadership academy. Like, think about the program you went in. Yeah, I can't afford that. Like, we. I've tried to push some of those things in the budget, and it's been like, okay, well, that got nicks. Like, you know, or, okay, do we want to spend $50,000 on paying instructors to come in to do, like, a leadership officers academy? Or I've got, like, six firehouses that really need new mattresses and that, you know, we're like, the cool. I consider Anne Arundel the coolest of the poor kids. Like, you know, when you grew up in your neighborhood and Running around. They'. It's always like the couple of kids that you thought were like the rich kids living in your neighborhood. Yeah, that was never me. And by design, I, I went for an apartment that is that exact same personality. It's like, they're cool and you get to hang out with the rich kids, but we're not. And that's exactly what the department is. And so it was like, okay, well, mattresses, right? Like if you all get to sleep. So that's like $40,000. Well, I can't run an academy on $10,000. So move the 10,000 back into like new hose and you know, rope for the high angle rescue folks. And like, it really gets down to that struggle of a decision making. So I'm not doing great there. I. The best I try to do is the things that don't cost money of like using some of my IAFC connections and my metro fire chiefs connections to say, hey, you know, whatever, Austin, Texas or you know, San Diego, California. Do you have somebody that can mentor a captain so that they get an outside perspective? Like take one of my captains, one of your battalion chiefs, mentor, so using relationships in that manner. But you have to be really cognizant of people's time because this is a beat down job.
- [44:55]
B
It is, it totally is. It truly.
- [44:57]
A
Yeah.
- [44:57]
B
I asked that question just because, you know, most fire department, most people I talk to on this show, they, their departments don't have development programs. I think FDNY did. Chicago I think did. But you know, out of 100 departments, we'll say 5, right? 5%. It's not very good. But the question becomes like, if leadership's important, number one, we should have it a part of development. And if we will just. You go this far, if the department is struggling to have strong leaders, well, why would they have strong leaders if there's nothing that develops them to become those. If that makes sense. Like we have great programs for firefighters, right? The recruit academy, six months, EMT training, paramedic training, one year, whatever. Of course, these are well developed people in those skill sets because we put them through six months or one year. But then if we have ineffective leaders, we'll say, and we say, well, what'd you do to train them? Well, nothing. Well, then of course you're gonna have ineffective leaders. Unless these individuals were out seeking it for themselves, which I believe every person should. Anyway.
- [46:00]
A
Well, that's what I was going to say. So let me ask you, as a responsible individual who gets into this career, what is the percent that you think an individual should be responsible for elevating their career versus the department.
- [46:17]
B
So I'm going to say 100%. I'm going to say like it's, it's every person's 100% responsibility. It is. And then if you tap onto that, I will go on the other extreme and also say it's all to the departments 100% response. It's an imbalanced equation right now, 200%. I don't know if that's a. But if you get my point right, it goes back to let's use the philosophy of extreme ownership. Right. I always believe extreme ownership only works if both parties adopt extreme ownership. Meaning if I say the department owes me everything or the department says, hey, the person, it doesn't work. So I believe they both need to have that mindset. And then the balance happens because they're working, they're fighting each other on how to balance that. Because at the end of the day, it's like a marriage. When someone says a marriage is 50% my responsibility, compromise and 50% my spouses. No, it's 100% both parties responsibility. Not 50, 50. It's 100, 100 in my opinion. And so I think of it as the same way, like we need both parties, both department and self to be a part of that. Each collective responsibility.
- [47:24]
A
Yeah. I think we live in such a day and age that you can be a really successful leader by just getting on a device, by just talking to people, by being present. But then you really want to expand that and kind of test that and you know, you get hungry for more. So then it's like, who pays for the conference, who pays for to attend? Who gives me the leave to go to fesd? Who. Right. And those are the department pieces that I think, you know, those are equally complicated because when you have a big department, you know, when I have over a thousand firefighters, how do I decide who gets to go to which conference? And then, you know, we've all been to conferences where we really get something out of it. And we've all been to conferences where like, that was a good time, but I was distracted doing this and this. And I'm a believer when you go to the conference, you know, 30% is what you're going to get in the classroom. But you know, the rest of those percents are the people sitting next to you is, you know, going out afterwards. That doesn't mean you have to drink. Right. It doesn't always have to be drinking activities. You can still go to the bar and Drink a soda water and talk to people. And, you know, I always have met people in the morning hours, in the gym, at conferences, and those are actually some of the people I stayed the closest to. But it's like summer camp, you know, if you get the opportunity to go, you got like, 72 hours. And on that first day, you know, if I were to run into you, if I would find you the next day and be like, hey, you're my new friend. Will you be my mentor? I'm gonna call you. You gotta, like, be aggressive.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah, I love that. Holy smokes. Talk about aggressive. I love that. I love that.
- [48:59]
A
Like, okay, right. Give me your number. Let's. You know, let's. That's actually how I. How I've gotten some of my greatest mentors is, you know, I watch them in a room. They know people. I'm googling them, and then I'm just like, hi, you know, my name is Trisha. Nice to meet you. I go, oh, would you mind being my mentor? And they're all like this. What was your name?
- [49:17]
B
Yeah. No. Wow.
- [49:19]
A
What do I have to lose if they say no? It's like, I never talk to them anyways.
- [49:23]
B
I know. Well, then let's throw this out there, Chief. How many times have you either said that, did that, or heard someone else say, do that, where that person said, no, I will not be your mentor?
- [49:33]
A
I've never had anybody say no. I have had one or two that just kind of Ghost. Right?
- [49:38]
B
Yeah. Yes.
- [49:40]
A
Like, they give you that, like, courtesy response in the email, and then you follow up and you're like, okay, so that's over.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah, sure, sure. But that's. Yeah. And that's still not right. Not. Not many times. But what did you lose? What'd you lose? Yeah. You didn't lose anything.
- [49:57]
A
Nothing.
- [49:58]
B
Your career ended now because you got a no response. No. So, yeah, that's. That's really. I don't even know how to ask this question, but I'll ask it. I'm having so much fun with this conversation. I don't even know how I wrote this. Things that only fire chiefs experience. Oh, yeah. And I think part of that is just simply to give us our listener base, like, perspective. Right.
- [50:22]
A
An idea. Okay.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah. We don't know.
- [50:24]
A
Figure out what. If you do things, you want to know the one that. That gets me the most 100%.
- [50:29]
B
Yes.
- [50:30]
A
And I. Any fire chief listening would 1000% agree with this is we all have members in our department that we have bent over backwards for, like, changed a code Redefined a rule, personally invested time with their families, their significant others, sometimes monetarily invested. And then one of the things I've learned, and it goes with this, is when firefighters, officers, I'll just say firefighters in general, anybody on the job, when they leave the job, there is some envision of how that ceremonial looks, how they want to leave the job. I didn't understand how attached people are to whether they're medically retiring, whether they're retiring, whether they're transferring to another department. But there's something there that people envision and when that expectation isn't met, it's one of the greatest personal disappointments that I watch unfold on people's faces. But I say that because one of the things that a lot of people know is there are so many firefighters that fire chiefs really invest into because they're really trying to do the right thing. And then normally those firefighters are the first ones on social media, tearing up the department, tearing up the fire chief, speaking poorly about it. Like, I don't know if the facts get locked in differently in their brain or if they don't recall what's been invested. That one is so hard to take. And what, you're not going to run around the station, right? I'm not going to run around the station and be like, remember so and so. I know you guys all saw that on social media, because that'll come up like, like, hey, have you seen on the retirees page what so and so is saying? They'll ask me. They'll be like, what do you think about that? And if I don't know, they'll be like, look, right? They show me their phone and you're like, you gotta be the bigger person, not even a bigger fire chief. You just gotta be a better human being. And the whole time I'm like, burning up, like, oh, my God.
- [52:36]
B
Wow.
- [52:37]
A
I did so much from a department standpoint, from a personal standpoint, from a fire chief standpoint. So that's one of those things that I don't think anybody realizes, you know, some of the other things of how hard you fight for the little bit of money or, like, I mean, like, feels like, like selling an organ, you know, like a personal bodily organ. Like, it's just, you know, it's some of those things. And I'm sure people, you know, can make those assumptions. Yeah, but it's like those are the juicy tidbits that if fire chiefs ever decide to write books, it's like, oof. There's lots of.
- [53:16]
B
Chief, do you watch Football.
- [53:19]
A
I do.
- [53:19]
B
Okay. Do you watch college football?
- [53:22]
A
Yep.
- [53:23]
B
Okay. So Kirby Smart. You know, Kirby Smart. And you've probably heard. Okay, you probably heard this, and I'm gonna. I wrote this down because with what you said, this I think ties really well to what you're saying. So for the listener, Kirby Smart, Georgia Bulldogs, you know, head football coach, two time, you know, national champion work, you know, alongside Nick Saban and a lot of legendary coaches. But he said these things, and I wanted your thoughts on this, because I think this aligns with what you're saying. He said, Kirby Smart. That is. There's a cost to strong leaders. There's a cost to leadership, and people don't talk about costs. And what he said was these things. Good leaders make hard decisions that negatively affect people that you love and care about. Good leaders are disliked despite making every attempt they can to do the best for the most. And true leaders are misunderstood often and won't always have the opportunity to defend themselves. How true is all that?
- [54:26]
A
The Bible, Right? Let me etch that in stone. Yeah, that. That is God. Those are like. Those are really, really good. Those are. You know, I heard somebody say to me once that really resonated. It's okay to cry when you're making the right decision. And I was like, holy crap. It is. Yeah. Because most of the decisions you make as the fire chief are bad and horrible. And then. And then you have to figure out how to sell one of those decisions. I mean, we get. And I love this job. It is the coolest freaking job in the fire service. Like, I absolutely adore this position. It's so fun. There are so many amazing things I get to do that I. It's almost gluttonous, like, how great people are in the community to you and all that kind of stuff. But the flip side of that is you got to pay the piper. And yeah, to me, that's the payment schedule is you've got to make some of these decisions. And man, that second one that you read. Can you read that again?
- [55:32]
B
Yes. So the second one, you will be disliked despite attempting to do the best for the most.
- [55:39]
A
True.
- [55:40]
B
I mean, that's true. And how sad isn't even the word, because so often we want to get others to understand where we're coming from, but sometimes we either can't for whatever reason. Right. For confidential information, or it's hard to communicate across 2,000 people to. But it's. It's. Sad is not the word. But it's. It's almost like if you disheartening yeah, disheartening. There you go. Because we want people to understand, whether it be the fire chief's position or another position that you're in, to understand what your perspective is. Right. And a lot of people, number one, don't, or let's go further and say, won't go out of their way to understand someone's perspective or where they're coming from. And they would rather just be so simple and say, you know what that person is, just whatever, abc, and leave it at that. And even further, they'll have that thought, and then they'll further that thought at the kitchen table. We'll say, and. And further their opinion on the matter. Not having the perspective.
- [56:36]
A
Yeah, well. And then you get, like, collective feeding. Right. That's what really.
- [56:40]
B
Yeah.
- [56:41]
A
Kind of starts to. To elevate all that, you know, a little bit, that no fire chief goes into this role and raises their right hand and gets sweet worn in and thinks these things aren't going to happen. I don't know any fire chief that's ever done that. Like, so it's not like a woe is me when you hear a chief complain. But there are times when it's like, you know, it gets taken to the extreme. Like, if I was a CEO in a corporation, some of the things I have experienced along with other chiefs, what they have experienced would. Would not fly. Right. Would be workplace harassment, would be slander, would be lawsuit worthy. But there is something about our world that allows it to be like, well, you're the chief. You picked it.
- [57:31]
B
Yeah.
- [57:32]
A
You know, it can be very crass and I think sad. I mean, I said disheartening. I don't think you're wrong saying sad. It's a different kind of weight, and a lot of things will lighten it, but it doesn't take it away.
- [57:45]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Wow. Oh. All right, I got one last question, and then let's get to rapid fire to close us off.
- [57:52]
A
Jim.
- [57:53]
B
So the question I have is. Is leaning on failure, we'll say. So my question is, did you get your first fire chief gig that you applied for?
- [58:06]
A
Yes.
- [58:06]
B
You did. All right, that's not helping my question, because what I wanted to lean on was.
- [58:13]
A
Oh, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, no. I'm a liar. I'm a liar. I did not. Let me. Let me think. No, I did not. So when I, you know, was applying and I said the last application was Bozeman, Montana, I had applied. My family lives the Midwest, and I Thought, well, if I'm going to leave Maryland, I'm going to go to the Midwest, like Wisconsin, Illinois, and be closer to my family, which is why Bozeman. And was like, no way. Nobody lives in Montana that I'm related to. And, and so I did. I applied for some assistant chiefs and some deputy chief positions, but I applied for the fire chief of Fitchburg, Wisconsin, which is just south of Madison. And they had the oddest little process in the fact that all four of the applicants were together the whole time. So I became friends and in still to this day, friends with the guy who made fire chief. And so. So I stand corrected. So I did. I was super upset I did not get that job. But it's, it was all for good reason because, you know, a year later is when Anna Rundle came up. So.
- [59:24]
B
Yeah. And it wasn't January 28th, that Wisconsin when I bet.
- [59:27]
A
No, no.
- [59:30]
B
So the, the overarching question there is whether it be that failure or, or another. Because failure is okay. Yes, failure. Whether it be a fire chief position, deputy chief position, or any position, like, what did you do to just kind of say, you know what, okay, the next one, here we go. Like, is it, was it easy? Was it hard?
- [59:52]
A
The personal side, like, in that situation was hard because my heart was connected to trying to be home near my family. So that piece was hard. The, the job side, I was like, okay, right, go on to the next one. This is life. But my normal instinct is almost, were you an athlete? Were you an athlete in high school?
- [60:13]
B
Not in college, but high school and all throughout childhood? Yes.
- [60:15]
A
Okay, what was your sport?
- [60:16]
B
Would you play football, baseball, basketball and then more or less golf? Yeah.
- [60:20]
A
Oh, you're like a multi lettered athlete.
- [60:21]
B
Of course. Of course.
- [60:23]
A
You're a go getter. That makes sense.
- [60:25]
B
It's just, it's fun. I enjoyed outside.
- [60:28]
A
Yeah. So for me, my answer has always been this is sport, not war. I didn't get the job. I got to go to two a day sessions. Right. I got to get up in the morning and train and I need to go to practice at night. Right. I went to one a day and I wasn't ready to go to one a day. Right. So, you know, it's like that preseason post season in season, and I would try to correlate like where I was athletically, which is, you know, mentally being prepared for interviews, writing a better resume, having more knowledge of the city I'm applying to, whatever it is. So that was kind of my take on it, where that's the Sports side of the mindset. If I led with the war side. Oh, well, they didn't even interview me. You right? Screw them. I'm the best candidate. They're losing out. I'm doing everything fine. I'm gonna do everything exactly the same for my next job. Like, no, no, Right?
- [61:21]
B
Yeah, yeah. Not gonna work. You gotta. How can you better yourself? How can you step up your game for go to 2A days, not one days. Right.
- [61:29]
A
I love that. And I still use that today because I've, I've lost some pretty decent battles being a fire chief and I'm like, sometimes you lose. Yeah, I don't like it.
- [61:39]
B
That's right.
- [61:40]
A
But it happens.
- [61:41]
B
It happens. It happens. Happens.
- [61:43]
A
Yeah.
- [61:44]
B
All right, let's close this off. Chief, I really appreciate all the honesty, vulnerability in our conversation today and the rapid fire. And then we'll close it off. So the first question is, is now stemmed from what you just said. Where did that two day mentality come from? Where did that mentality of I gotta step up my game? Sports.
- [62:03]
A
I don't know for sure, but when I think about, I, I think I just didn't want to be like that mopey person on the team. Like, where does that get you? Like, so I think it was just like, well, that, that's annoying. I have a 24 hour rule. Like if I'm sad or upset about something, whatever it is literally on the clock, I will mark the clock. Like, I don't get the job. I lost a grievance I thought I should win. I didn't get the money I asked for. I will literally mark on the clock. And I can complain. I can talk about it to anybody. I can be sad, I can be a giant baby about it. I can be a nasty little human to myself. I can wallow anything I want. Anything, anything, anything. But 24 hours. And as soon as I hit that 24 hour mark, you're done, Wolford. No more. Put it away. You're annoying to other people and carry on with life.
- [63:01]
B
Wow.
- [63:02]
A
I learned that from a judge in Spokane who became a girlfriend of mine. Why? It was out there and she did not get the nod to be a judge the first time. And when I met with her the next day to say, are you okay? I'm so sorry. She goes, I got 46 minutes left. And I was like, what? She goes, I have 46 minutes to wallow. And then I'm done. And we like had coffee. She literally cut it off. And I was like, you don't want to talk about It. She's like, I can't.
- [63:28]
B
Wow.
- [63:29]
A
She's like, I was just the most annoying person in my own home for 24 hours.
- [63:33]
B
I. I love that. Oh, wow. That is awesome.
- [63:37]
A
Yeah. She goes, because my husband knows I'm gonna be done with it. My kids know. Just let mom get it out. Like, let her cry about it. Let her talk.
- [63:46]
B
All right.
- [63:46]
A
Yeah.
- [63:47]
B
I love it. I love it. I love it.
- [63:48]
A
So maybe a hybrid of that.
- [63:50]
B
Yeah, I love it. I love the shine. And this rapid fire is just. It's supposed to be for just. What can we latch onto? Right. I always tell people, when you go to a class, when you listen to a podcast, when you read a book, whatever, you got to take away something you got to take away and now be a part of. Right? Because if you go to a class, here's my thought. If you go to a class, say, department spends 500 for you to go to a class, and you'll come back. You don't adopt the mindset. You don't utilize the things that you were taught or whatever. You more or less waste the department's
- [64:17]
A
money and your own time.
- [64:19]
B
And your own time.
- [64:20]
A
Your time has a value, dollar amount to it. Yes.
- [64:23]
B
So make sure when you're intentionally doing these things, spending your time and money or someone else's money, come back and adopt something from it. If not, five things. So, yes. There you go. 24 hour. I love it. I've adopted my nine.
- [64:38]
A
24 hours of morning.
- [64:39]
B
24 hours of morning. Then it's move on. I love it.
- [64:41]
A
Yes.
- [64:42]
B
Okay. Speaking of that, Chief, this cannot be a fire service book. Recommend a book, something that resonates with you, where our listener would say, I'm going to pick that up because the chief said it, because it helped you grow, what would that be?
- [64:55]
A
It's a book I actually gift to people, and it is totally untraditional by the fire service. It is the Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein.
- [65:04]
B
I know that. I haven't read it, but I know
- [65:05]
A
that awesome Giving Tree, and it's super simple, and it looks great on a desk because it's, you know, apple green. And at our core, everything we do in this business is basic instincts of customer service and being a good human. And that book has all those lessons woven into it, and it's. I don't know, maybe a total of, like a hundred words in the whole book, but it is truly about selflessness.
- [65:37]
B
I love it. Selflessness. I love it. Okay, if this is any different, if you could train all the leaders in Your organization, one thing. What would it be? Just one.
- [65:51]
A
Well, are you sure? Only one.
- [65:52]
B
Okay. How about two? Two.
- [65:54]
A
Okay. Perspective and gratitude. Having a perspective of something outside of your world, your department, and then being grateful what you have, knowing that what you have hopefully will always produce more. But getting comfortable with, you know, not always want, want, want that sometimes things are really good. So perspective is hard to gain if you don't get out. And gratitude gets forgotten very easily.
- [66:30]
B
Wow. Powerful. All right, as we go to leadership challenge, Chief, first thing I want to say is thank you for giving up 1 hour and 11 minutes of your time. I went over something that I do often, which I try not to, but I'm working on it. I'm working on it. So thank you for giving up your time today. Obviously, you're a very busy person. I appreciate your time. Before I let you go, the only way this conversation, this podcast continues is if you challenge somebody. So is there someone out there anywhere? Could be fire service, law enforcement, anywhere you would like to challenge. Where I can reach out and say, Chief Wolford asked me to reach out to you to be a guest.
- [67:05]
A
Oh, I got to tell you right
- [67:07]
B
now, you do, you do, you do, you do. It's got to be made public, right? Oh, you weren't ready. I'll give you a minute. I'll give you a second.
- [67:15]
A
Well, you know, because you said law enforcement, and there's some great law enforcement chiefs also. I may have to email you that one. Do they have to be your current chief?
- [67:25]
B
No, no. We've had retirees. We've had police lieutenants on here. We've had Disney executives on here, so.
- [67:32]
A
Oh, yeah, I saw you had Lee.
- [67:35]
B
We had Lee Hockro. Yeah. So you met Lee, in fact, Randy Brugman. I know you were on the show with him. Randy was supposed to call me two hours ago. He never did, so I saw that. I listened to your show with him. Randy and I are pretty close. But, yeah, I had Lee on the show. And so, yeah, this is just. It's leadership. Right. Because nothing is isolated to any industry or profession. So we say anybody that you believe would give a message to fire service leaders, a good message.
- [68:02]
A
So I have one definitely recently retired Fire Chief Jim Davis out of Fort Worth, Texas, I think. Just very interesting conversation. And he really is highly proficient fire and EMS side of the house, which comes off as kind of like that gruff, like, good old boy. And then you start to figure out, like, oh, oh, really smart. Oh, he's like, really into the medical side, which you Wouldn't expect. Right. You would expect, like, hard charger, old school firefighter, nicest guy. So I think one, he would be great. Have you interviewed him yet?
- [68:41]
B
I have not. I have not.
- [68:42]
A
Okay. Yeah. So recently retired from Fort Worth and he comes out of Ohio.
- [68:51]
B
Okay.
- [68:52]
A
Columbus, Ohio, is where he did a lot of his, his career, and I probably have some other ones.
- [68:59]
B
Okay. All right.
- [69:00]
A
But you know, you know me. I want to give you somebody, like, quirky and interesting.
- [69:03]
B
Perfect. I love it.
- [69:04]
A
That's going to keep you on your toes.
- [69:06]
B
Yes. Oh, yeah, definitely 100. So thank you. And again, think it does. The success of this podcast is only because the guests, such as yourself, are willing to offer somebody. Somebody else. So thank you. And I'll reach out to Jim Davis now. At a later time, I'll gather his info from you. I'm sure there's 100 Jim Davis's if I were to Google right now or LinkedIn. So. Okay, before we officially close, what would you like our listeners to walk away with today as kind of your lasting message to them?
- [69:37]
A
My lasting message? You know, there's so much in the fire service, there's so much consistency of leadership lessons. You know, no matter what you talk about, whether it's health or work, life balance or I, I think something about the fire service that I always like people to think about is if you really feel like you're in it and you're making a difference and you really do you love what you're doing, then whatever it is you're looking for, put in for it or, or try it or. Like we talked about the beginning of our conversation, don't, don't feel restricted. Like, I'm a lieutenant. I can't do this. The flip side of that is I think there are a lot of people in our business that are scared to get out of the business but would be happier if they did get out. Like, okay, that was cool. I did it for 10 years. But I kind of want to do something else because we also have a way of, like, trapping people in and that creates the burnout quicker, that affects the negative in the station. And I don't know this to be true, but what I know to be true is if it's not making you happy anymore, that it's okay to leave. Like I tell my firefighters, get on the promotional list, if, when it's your turn and I say, do you want to be promoted? And they say, no, that's okay, but that's not our culture. So be an individual, do what makes you happy. In the career field. You don't have to leave it forever. You could come back. But, you know, it's. This profession affects so much of who you are that you really have to be true to yourself, that this is what you want and that you want it for the right reasons. So it's not a. There's nothing profound in the message. I think I'm. I think my things are more interesting in the smaller bits and action items, but, you know, it's hard to take a look on the inside once you really get turned into the business.
- [71:40]
B
Yes.
- [71:41]
A
So not to forget that.
- [71:42]
B
Awesome. Well, thank you, chief. And thank you for giving up your time today.