← Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table 
Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table
Ep. 98: Ryan McGrady, Fire Chief - Humility & Vulnerability
01:07:48
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- [00:02]
A
Just a simple acknowledgment of, I can do this much, but we can do this much. Like, we can go so much farther as a team. I think there's that old saying of if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I think that kind of embodies that vulnerability, right? Like you, you want to reach, you know, great distances. You're not going to do it by yourself. It's not possible. The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal. Build more leaders.
- [01:05]
B
All right, good morning, everyone. And this is episode 98 of the Kitchen Table. And today we go just south of Seattle over to Pierce county. And today our topics are going to be revolved around building trust and service to others. On the show today, we have fire Chief Ryan McGrady. Ryan McGrady was born and raised in a small town in south central Alaska, where he moved to Colorado at 19 to attend college. While he was there, he began a career in EMS in 2002. Chief McGrady worked as a medic in Colorado for over three years before moving to Washington state and beginning a fire service career in 2006. The chief was promoted to captain in 2015, where he spent time working in the EMS division before being promoted to assistant chief in 2019. As an assistant chief, he worked in EMS training, eventually operations as an assistant chief before being promoted to fire Chief in 2026. Chief has an associate's degree in fire command and administration, a bachelor's in human biology, and a master's degree in public health. Good morning, Chief. Thanks for being a guest today. How are you?
- [02:10]
A
Thanks for having me. Honored to be here today. Thank you.
- [02:14]
B
Yes. And obviously, I know that you had a big transition moving over to the fire chief role. I remember when I reached out, I think it must have been just early in the year, and I remember you responded. You're like, I would love to be on the show, but I'm super busy right now, so I can understand. Obviously, transitioning to any role is going to be busy, let alone the fire chief role. So before we just jump into it, would you mind sharing a little bit about you career, family, maybe this transition, and then we'll talk leadership?
- [02:45]
A
Yeah, thanks. Well, as you said, just kind of going back to the beginning. I was born and raised in a rural town in south central Alaska on the Kenan Peninsula. Grew up In a tiny town called Sterling. Spent my childhood there. Still have some family that are still there. Growing up, I spent a lot of time kind of learning how to work commercial fishing. Half my family were fishermen up there. So I saved up and that's how I paid my way through college. Went to Colorado, as you mentioned, and got into EMS there. Actually, September 11, 2001, was my first day of EMT school. Kind of set the. Set the tone for my career path. But, yeah, been in Washington for 20 years now. My wife originally is from Hawaii, so we, both of us grew up on the ocean, wanted to move somewhere closer, and we, you know, somehow don't really know why, but we ended up in Pierce county and have been here, been here ever since. Got three kids. Two of them are teenagers. They occupy a lot of our. A lot of our time, but very blessed in that regard to have such a wonderful family and a wife that really keeps. Keeps the wheels turning at home and definitely is the, you know, the backbone of our family and, you know, supports me and what I do here and grateful for that. But, yeah, as you mentioned, went through various different roles in the organization I did while I was assistant chief of EMS and training. As you know, I have a master's degree in public health, and I was the health and safety officer for West Pierce when the pandemic hit. And, you know, a lot of guys looked at me like, well, you have a public health degree, so what do we do? So actually, it was a, you know, obviously a challenging time for a lot of us, and during that time frame, and I learned a lot about, you know, leadership in general and how to lead through some difficult times. And that was, you know, obviously, tons of lessons learned. But it was a. My boss at the time would come, you know, come to me during that. That time period and say, hey, you know, just checking in. Hey, how are you doing? And my. My response to him, when I was just feeling it, you know, I would say I am learning so much, just trying to. Trying to, you know, stay positively focused and realize how, you know, through those challenges, you know, that I was actually, you know, building, you know, some. Some personal resilience and leadership through, you know, sometimes through failure. But it was. It was a. I don't particularly want to live through it again, but I wouldn't trade it because of what, you know, what we were all able to gain from that. After that, I was assigned temporarily. There's a Pierce County Fire training consortium kicked off in 2022. So we were just winding down the pandemic a bunch of Pierce county agencies said, hey, we want to try this consortium thing out. I was chosen to. To be the training sheet for that and work on building that. I was assigned there for two years. Had amazing opportunity to work with a lot of people across a lot of different organizations in Pierce County. Built some amazing relationships. And really, it was another big leadership challenge for me, but again, one that I will be forever grateful for. And the relationships that were forged there, you know, will, you know, will be lifelong, for sure. Met some amazing leaders who helped kind of shape, shaped my career and be able to carry some of their legacy and some of their lessons that they taught me forward. Shortly after that, I came back to West Pierce, and the training consortium eventually dissolved in late 2024. Came back to West Pierce as the operations chief and was there for. In that role for a couple years. Then, yeah, transitioned to the fire chief position just a few months ago. So it's just been. It's been an exciting ride all, you know, just kind of, you know, one challenge after another. But, you know, I, you know, I'll be forever grateful for what this organization and the members here and members of the community have provided me and my family as much as we serve. You know, there's. I was mentioning this to some folks here the other day, that the community members here, you know, their creation have provided me and my family more than I feel like I'll ever be able to return despite, you know, as hard as we work at that. Yeah. Something I take very seriously, and I'm just very, very grateful for their support and all those things. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. That's me.
- [07:45]
B
That's Ryan McGrady. Chief Fire Chief Ryan McGrady. Wow. He said a lot there. And before we, you know, started the show here today, I. I learned something, and I'm glad you mentioned it. You talked about the Pierce County Fire Training Consortium, and I had no idea what that was. Well, I know, so I knew what it was, but I didn't know how it came about. So it's very interesting. My organization that I work for joined the King County Training consortium in 2019. Obviously, we've been a part of it since, and I've been in and out of the training division a few times, and maybe you can resonate with this. Like, people that go to, say, the training division or go to a special assignment like that, they always promote out of it, and it's because of, you know, whether it be the workload that you do the assignment, it Pushes you. I heard you say there's a lot of relationships built, a lot of leadership challenges that kind of helped you grow, that pushed you, put you out of your comfort zone. So two things I kind of want to ask is, because I didn't know this, there was a relationship that helped bring or, you know, start the Pierce County Fire Training Consortium. So can you talk about that? Because you said relationships that you built are still there today despite, obviously, you know, the dissolving of the consortium. So kind of talk about that and how that kind of relates to growth and leadership.
- [09:03]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So kind of start from the beginning, you know, the hidden relationship piece of it. I think that the relationships at a high level, say the fire chief level, you know, it started at, you know, you know, sitting at the coffee, you know, coffee table or, you know, scribbling on a napkin, coming up with some ideas and, you know, hey, how could we, you know, make this a reality? And a lot of, you know, great intentions and great ideas, they began to, you know, operationalize that. And as I was selected to lead that effort, you know, my primary focus going in there was, you know, as I, you know, most of the people that I worked with directly in there, you know, they didn't know me. I didn't know them. They didn't know anything about my leadership style. They didn't know what I knew or didn't know, more importantly, probably. And I. And the same for them. So when I made a very conscious effort, the very beginning, going in, there was one trying to meet and have conversations regularly with the board, the fire chiefs that were overseeing everything, one, to understand what their goals were and their intentions behind this effort, to make sure that there was alignment and that we were able to meet those. And then the next thing was how to build. How to build a team out of total strangers in some circumstances and from multiple organizations with, you know, different perspectives and different priorities and different ideas and, you know, and also, you know, kind of on the technical side of it, you have a group of people with different patches on their shoulder. But we also had, you know, seven different labor bargaining units represented and a whole lot of opinions, you know, know, that were injected in there. So the main focus was, hey, how do I unify this group and pull them together so that we're operating on the same page and mutually supporting each other. And so we put a lot of effort into that and, you know, through a number of different things, you know, just really trying to build relationships with the people that were there. And that was intentional and engineered Through. Through just the various dialogue and meetings that we would have and things like that. And so I spent a lot of time and I challenged a lot of the other leaders to spend time one. Getting to know everybody that was there on a personal level, but also how to understand them, understand why they think the way that they do, understand what their values are or what motivates them or what their, you know, even kind of individually or maybe representing the organization, what their priorities are and getting all of that out. And through that dialogue, we were able to, you know, be able to kind of organize that group and assign people to, you know, what they were passionate about or where they could add value to the team. And, you know, it wasn't perfect, but we did. We were very open. I was very transparent. And really, you know, I know we, you know, leadership. There's a lot of, you know, discussion on vulnerability. That was one of the things that I, you know, I really wanted to kind of lean into that, you know, express to them that I don't have all the answers. But we are on this bus together. I may be behind the wheel, but if you, you know, you see that we're coming up on a corner too fast or we're about to drive off the road, I expect that you say something. I want people to raise those questions, because if we crash, we all crash. And so I wanted. I really wanted to kind of emphasize that, like, I'm here to listen. I want to hear your thoughts and perspectives. It doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to go that direction, but without all the information, we can't make good decisions. Yeah. So over the course of that two years, and that wasn't something that happened overnight. I mean, it takes months, as you well know, to build those relationships. But through the level, as you can imagine, the level of challenges that we faced, a lot of the adversity, you know, it was a little bit of a pressure cooker with all the different, you know, egos and the ownership that people have on some of their ideas and the amount of work that some people put into the way that they do something, to have a total stranger come in and be like, yeah, but I don't think we should do it that way. That is a very difficult thing to do, particularly in the fire service. Yes. And so really kind of delicately, you know, walking that line and really trying to encourage an ability to change. I think, you know, I can appreciate passion and I can appreciate the level of energy and the work that goes into a lot of those things. But we all have to be willing to change one way or another, good or bad. And understanding that it's about the bigger picture, it's not about my thing. So that was a constant thing that we were always working on, is being able to change. And I think through those challenges, through the, you know, for lack of a better term, the adversity that we faced, man, those relationships just got tighter and tighter one another. And I think that, you know, I really applaud the group that was in that organization working because, man, everybody that was assigned there, some of the people that were there, that wasn't, you know, they were told, hey, you're going to go work here. That wasn't necessarily by choice, but when they were there, I mean, they worked hard, that amazing attitudes, they supported the team. But I think that we collectively, as a group, you know, we built that environment to allow that kind of mentality to kind of. So as I mentioned, you know, the consortium, you know, dissolved after a couple of years and we. But the relationships that were, that were built in that environment, I think, you know, they will most definitely, you know, stand the test of time. We, as I said, you know, there's regular communication between organizations right now from a lot of those folks. A lot of those people, as you mentioned, have subsequently promoted to new positions in their respective organizations. And, you know, we remain good friends. We call people, hey, you know, what are you guys doing on this? How are you doing this? And I think that in and of itself, even though the consortium may not exist currently, you know, in a formal structure, but the ability for us to continue to collaborate and work together, you know, I think that will. That will continue to sustain and we'll all benefit as a result.
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B
Yeah, you said encouraged the ability to change. That's so important, I guess, but you don't hear it very often. Like, obviously there's a saying, like, if you don't. Without change, there's no progress, because progress, there's changing that's happening. And so not just having the ability, but encouraging the ability, but encouraging others that change is necessary. And then we'll go back to the case of, we'll say the consortium, like the change, you know, was to bring the consortium together, but then the change to say, you know, what it's going to dissolve for. For many reasons. Right, but that's change and there's progress along the way. And I thought you said something so important when you said that many of the relationships continued like it wasn't. Didn't sound like it was just this huge ego thing. Like, okay, finally we're broken up and now everyone go their separate ways because they're still your. Your neighbors, they're still your colleagues. There's still mutual aid. There's still all that. And so that's. That's such a. You talked about ego, and then putting the ego aside, because that's important. When we're talking about leadership and we're talking about, you know, progress and we're ultimately talking about service, we'll say, because I know we're going to jump into service here in a minute, and it's not even a failure. Like, I'm not even going to go as far as to say that just because something dissolved doesn't mean it's a failure that could be a success because of the opportunities that that happens. But also that happened because I'm sure a million great things happened since the dissolving. And so I think. I think we get too caught up sometimes in if something doesn't work, it's a failure.
- [17:41]
A
No, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot there. I do think that, I mean, you know, one of the. One of the things that, you know, we talk about a lot in leadership is humility. And that's something that I think that, you know, I just personally, you know, I value a lot. I think that, you know, you won't be successful without it. And I think that having that level of humility and at every level, right, you don't have to be a chief officer or an officer whatever, right. You've got to be humble. This job will definitely humble you. I do think that, you know, kind of looking at it as painful and as difficult as change can be. And I know it was. It was hard for a lot of us that were, you know, that were assigned there, and we're really trying to build something special. Very difficult. Just like, you know, when people brought it, you know, they. They come in with their ideas and like, how I think we're going to go in this other direction. That is not an easy thing to ask, you know, or to ask somebody to give up or to feel like, oh, well, you know, this is the way we do it, but now I have to do something different. Well, the consortium in of itself, as it, you know, as a result, that was hard for all of us was we thought, you know, we're man, we poured so much into this for so long, but to be able to kind of humble yourself and realize, you know, what this, you know, this wasn't all for. Not. We gained a ton out of that experience. 1 I think on an individual level for the folks that were there, as I mentioned, a lot of people that were assigned there have since promoted and gone on their way organizations and moved up the ranks and for good reason. And I would assert that that is, you know, in part due to what they probably learned in that environment, 100%, just the trials and all those things. And so yes, you can look at it, you know, a couple different ways. You know, it was a failure because it didn't last. Or you can say, hey, it didn't last. But look at all these other things we gained over the course of going through that exercise and that process. One of the things that, you know, that we were challenging was that we, you know, it's something that I'm, you know, I'm very proud of. Hiring and recruit academies were going gangbusters. It's, you know, starting to slow down a little bit. But in terms of the numbers that fire departments were needing, I mean, regionally and you know, around the country for that matter, the demand to train new firefighters was astronomical. And I would, I would add that I think that any of us individually as organizations would have struggled independently to maintain those training pipelines. And so even that said, like, even if the training, that's what we did. We ran recruit academies as well as some other trainings, you know, across the board. But the big thing was, you know, the, when you look at the numbers of recruit academies that we ran, ran four separate academies over the course of a 12 month period with the number of recruits that we pumped through that pipeline, it was operationally, I don't know how we would have done it without all of those resources coming together. So again, like you said, I mean, it may not exist, but I think there's a lot of value that actually came from going through that up to and including improving our interoperability. Formal structure is gone, but we are much, you know, more closely aligned even today.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah, 100%. So I mean, it's just like you and I talked offline. It's just, it's, it was inspiring. And maybe not inspiring is the word that, you know, you could try something out and then say, you know what, it's actually not working. And then, you know, you move on, you move forward and then it is what it is. Relationships were built and it's not, it's not just a massive failure. It's like he said, we've learned a ton from it and we're just going to navigate moving forward. And luckily everyone is, you know, we got a lot of relationships were built that otherwise would not have been built, so to speak, if it wasn't for that. So, so building trust. I mean, obviously one of the talking points is about building trust and I think everyone would agree that, you know, trust is a, you know, a non negotiable trait, something that you have to have built in, in any, you know, high performing team, obviously in the fire service and so forth. And so the question I'm going to ask is like, how do you like build trust? Because it's not a, it's not a passive thing. It's not like, okay, you're a team and you know, after nine months we're going to have trust now. No, it's a process that needs to be intentional and it needs to be constantly worked on from day one and throughout. So talk about like the building trust aspect when it comes to your experience. Chief.
- [22:23]
A
Yeah, I think, you know, the going through, you know, the consortium was a good exercise in that and establishing, you know, why that's important. But I, I think that, you know, even beyond that, right, you can go through, you know, any relationship has to have trust with us. A, you know, marriage or a friendship or whatever, right? There's a, there's a level of trust or there. And depending on the relationship, you know, that level of trust is varying as well. You know, I have people that I trust very deeply and my trust for other people that maybe I don't know as well. Right. Is going to be, is going to be lower. So. And the application of what, when you know, or how that relationship occurs. Right, That's a factor as well. But I think it starts, right, I'll speak to recruit Academy just because, you know, we all go through that at the beginning of our career. And one thing that, you know, when I, I'll usually address each class, you know, very beginning of the academy and I talk a little bit about this and, and let them know, hey, you, you know, you are building your reputation throughout your career right now, starting today. And the, you know, part of what we go through in the career academy is for, you know, you go through this to start to earn the trust of instructors. When you hit probation, you earn the trust of your crew and your officer, you know, your fto, and it continues to build from there, but there's different ways to do that. And I think the instructors in the academy also have to have the trust recruit that they, they know, hey, these instructors are doing this because they have my best interest in heart. They're not trying to, you know, and this is this Goes beyond category. I'm not trying to trip you up. I'm not trying to ensure you're failure. I'm actually challenging you and pushing you because I want to see you succeed. And, and I think that, you know, that trust goes both ways, even at that level. I think when you hit the, you know, the, whether it's, you know, the company level or even, you know, go, go up the leadership chain, you know, that dynamic may be different in terms of day to day, but that, that relationship has to, you know, has to be maintained in order for there to be a functional relationship. So I think that, you know, there's, there's the, the peer level of trust. You know, if you and I are on a rig together, you know, medic unit or on an engine, I have to know that you have my back and I have yours. But I think that it, you know, it's very easy for us to get caught up in, you know, the technical aspect of. And I'm not, I'm not saying that that is not important. It absolutely is. And there's a way to show, you know, your level of confidence, I think, in those things and that you're. If I ask you to do something on fire ground, I know you're going to do it because I've seen you do it. You're, you're reliable. But around the, you know, around the station, it is where that trust really begins to develop is understanding kind of what we're talking about a little bit. I want to get to know you. I want to know what makes you take. I want to know how you think and for you to be open enough to start to be vulnerable and to be able to share some of those things, that also helps me to do the same with you. And as you are going to get to understand people and as you're building those relationships, it helps to foster that level of trust. I think that, you know, from a, like a, you know, peer to supervisor or like the firefighter to the company officer or even beyond, if I'm looking at, hey, I want to, I want to. I want my boss to trust me because if they trust me, they're going to empower me and they're going to, you know, they're going to listen. And I think that the way that you start, in a very practical sense, I think this, you know, sounds common sense oftentimes, but I think it is often overlooked in some cases is you have to, you know, be a good, be a good follower, be able, you know, be reliable and be communicative. With your supervisor. If I, if I'm as, you know, company officer and I'm having to consistently, hey, you know, you're not standing up on your training or hey, I gotta remind you to, you know, wear your PPE or get, you know, you know, wear your uniform. Rider. Hey, we're supposed to be here at this time. We're always waiting for you to right those little things. You know, I was just talking to a new company officer the other day and we were talking about, you know, just how you wear a uniform or how you present yourself throughout the day. And we talk about just, it's the little details. If I, if I show up to a house and the house is, you know, squirt away, the crews squared away and they're always on time. All those other things, I could probably, you know, surmise that I could go out to their rig and it's dialed, I can go to their station and dial. Their response times are probably better than other crews. Right? Because they, they should take that, that, that pride in those little details. And if I have a company officer that is, you know, pushing people and I have a follower who is actively being a good follower and they're, you know, they're working. Those are synergistic relationships that will. Then they become contagious. And now you start to build momentum and you can start to see that performance slowly tick up. Now, it doesn't happen overnight, and you have to have, you know, you have to have good chemistry. But I think that chemistry comes with getting to know and understand one another, which oftentimes happens. Having a cup of coffee around the dinner table and just getting to know people. And, you know, on a very, very deep personal level, I think that's kind of the apex of where you want to get to just with that crew chemistry. And that is, you know, ultimately that's where that trust develops, I think, for, you know, officers, you know, as you, as you work your way up, I think if you have shown yourself to be, again, you know, a good follower. You know, I don't go around and, and disparage leadership openly or I don't, you know, they don't know what they're talking about. Right. Like, you have to be very careful with those comments oftentimes, you know, they're just kind of flippant comments that are sometimes made or maybe they're made out of a moment of frustration. But what you're doing is you're showing people that, oh, that's okay to behave that way, even though it's Very difficult to sometimes do because we're all emotional and have a lot of feelings. But what you're doing is you're actually eroding that trust. If I talk that way about my boss, you know, how do I know my guys are talking that way about me? And so, you know, really trying to kind of model those things. So I think as you, as you move up, you know, understanding that, hey, you know, you can, you know, have that consistent, you know, that consistent performance, that consistent behavior, you know, you know, fostering those relationships and building that reputation for being, you know, disciplined, a hard worker, being reliable, you know, building those relationships and maintain that level of trust you have when you become another officer, it's that much easier for you to kind of continue to carry that forward and people will, you know, you have that credibility. Yeah, I think for. If I'm a chief officer coming into a new organization, maybe I don't have those relationships. I think that dynamic is very different because they don't know me. And I think you have to. I think it's even more important to be open in the beginning and just listen oftentimes. And I know a lot of us know that you hear that all of you know, frequently just when people are talking leadership. But I think that's an important piece, that's important distinction that you really have to, if you're an outsider coming in, you really have to focus on building those relationships on the front end. Let people get to know you, be open and it really helps kind of build that level.
- [30:30]
B
Yeah, well, a few times you mentioned followership. You know, good leaders were followers before they became good leaders. But also the strongest leaders are also followers currently. It's not like you become a leader now. Okay, I don't follow anymore. And so followership is so key. But we see it more often like I see it as a. Visually we'll say the formal leader. Let's just use the officer a. In a crew dynamic that the followers, if you will, are the crew levels. But in it, it's, it's. You mentioned two way street. It's, it's always both ways. Always. Right. And let's use even the, the other dynamic of chief officer to cruise or company officer or even, you know, deputies or fire chief to, to the rest of the organization. We don't see it that much like we don't see the fire chief following his, you know, the other members. Right. But, but there need be and follower of what I mean by that? By means of listening.
- [31:27]
A
Right.
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B
By empowering and taking the ideas and helping implement, if you will. But followership is always happening, I guess is my point, regardless where you are in the hierarchy. So I guess can you speak to that as like, for example, as a fire chief, like the instances where you were intentionally following. Because we know that you are the leader of the organization, Everyone knows that. And you're going to be taken making decisions that none of us have the ability to. But there's a followership happening all the time too, at your level. So can you speak on that?
- [31:59]
A
Oh, absolutely. I think that, you know, and you know, maybe there's a lot of. This is probably a generalization, but you know, there, there may be some people out there that think, you know, hey, oh, it's the fire chief or whatever, you know, he or she may, They've got all the answers. They know, you know, you don't get to that position without, you know, knowing everything. Absolutely not true. There are, you know, I'm surrounded, you know, the executive leadership team here. I'm surrounded every single day. There's a team of people here that are, you know, smarter than me. They have, you know, technical expertise in areas that I know absolutely nothing about. But the reason that we're able to accomplish what we accomplish is because we trust each other and we listen to each other and each of us are humble enough to recognize that we don't have all the answers, but we create an environment where it is okay to speak up and say, hey, I don't think this is a good idea. Let me explain why. Oh, you know, that that's a great point. Or, you know, even in, you know, actually I'll, I'll back up a second. I heard, and again, I, you know, I don't know that the details behind the story, it was at a neighboring organization, but I thought it was one of the most amazing examples of that in a very practical sense. A neighboring organization that had a massive wildland urban interface fire a number of years ago. As, you know, a lot of us, a lot of our focus is on in the structural realm. And so this, you know, this, who is now a chief officer was, you know, managing, you know, a division in this, you know, multi day event. And now they're getting to the point where they, you know, they need air assets. Well, they happen to have a probationary firefighter who had a huge wildland background and had been certified, you know, and had managed air assets on huge events, you know, across the country. Well, they're a probationary firefighter for this organization. And for a chief officer to say, hey, you know how to do this. Why don't you come with me? And you're going to now manage these things and be able to recognize the skill sets and the talents and the people that they have. That chief officer would have. Would have probably failed miserably at that. And that is not a slam on anybody, you know, their technical ability. That is actually, you know, that that's how we should all be recognized. We don't have the answers, we don't have the skill set. But what makes us successful is recognizing who in our team does and when to tap them on the shoulder and to lift them up and say, hey, I, you know, I need you. I need you right here. We're relying on you. Like, you have, you know the answer. We're here to listen to you. What do you need to make this happen? I will support you. I trust your judgment. I trust your decision making. How do we do that? That's what chief officers should be good at. I mean, anybody, really. Yeah, but just anybody in a leadership level. But that's really what, you know, that's an example, not one that I lived through. When I heard that story, I was like, that is a amazing example of that followership, even kind of down shantic advantage. You were. So I think that, that, you know, hopefully there's, you know, does take a little bit of humility.
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B
It does.
- [35:35]
A
Sometimes, especially I feel like you were in a position, you feel like you have to prove yourself and you can get caught in that trap sometimes. And the reality is, like, it is absolutely okay for you to not have the answers, but what is our responsibility is to make sure that we find the people that do. Right.
- [35:53]
B
Wow. I'm gonna lean on something because I agree 100% with everything you just said as far as empowerment, but utilizing the person on the team that may know more, we'll say and put them in the position to lead. But let's go here real quick. Not every, I'll say organization, but not every team will look at that as a good thing. What I mean by that is some will look at that after the fact and say, well, why didn't that chief officer or incident commander or something? Why. Why did they have to use someone that was junior to them? You know what I mean? And so then there's those types of. I don't want to say toxic, but I'll say there's those types of dynamics that take place where you are the role, you need know the role. And to. To a lighter extent to go. What you were saying is you need to know, quote unquote, every everything. Why does someone have, with 15 years experience, know more than you? But yeah, I, I, what's your thought on that? Because it sounds like in this case it was, it was empowered, allowed, and it was a good end result.
- [36:58]
A
Yeah. And I, I think that really should be, you know, I think for, for people that look at that. And I'll come back to the direct one on your question, just a second. But I think that I would challenge, you know, anybody that says that, hey, that, you know, that chief officer or whatever the position, they should have known those things. That may be true, but I would lean into the fact that I think rather than having leaders that know all the answers, you know, having leaders that know how to find all the answers, and I think that you measure that against the outcome. And I understand in our, in our world, in our environment, right. There's, you know, inherent danger in that. And, and you have to be mindful of that too. You know, you don't want to put somebody in a position that, you know, could result in harm to anyone. But that said, if you have, you know, the confidence and trust and you have those relationships with people, you know them, right. Like, put them in those positions to make the team successful. I don't care what your, what your rank is or what you know or don't know. Now, going back to, like, directly your question, I think that, yes, there are aspects of our jobs. As you move up the chain, right. Your focus is there are certain things you need to know. I would say, you know, just, I'm trying to come up with a good example. You know, I was a paramedic for a long time. I haven't, you know, I haven't innovated a patient or I haven't tested a patient in, you know, a number of years now. So, yes, I have a, I have an idea, but there's a lot of things that have changed now that I'm, now I'm no longer in that environment. It is not a good use of the organization's time and resources for me to know that level of detail, despite the fact that I'm, you know, the fire chief. It's, it's impossible. It is, you can't do it. There's too much. And I think when you look at what the scope, scope of the fire service has come or what it has become. I know, you know, just as an example in our organization, I know this is common in this region, right. You know, technical rescue and hazmat. We have a Marine pilot program. And we have, you know, small boat operators who have a lot of lakes and divers and swimmers. We've got, you know, all the typical response Russian fire, ems. You look at how EMS has changed over the, over the years. We have an emergency management division that works with the cities. We have, you know, we're getting a lot more into the movie stuff and that. I haven't even started into the administration piece. Right. Like, we have a whole administrative division. As you move up, there is no way it is physically impossible for somebody to know all. And so I would caution us, I think that there are, you know, there's absolute value in maybe having spent time in different divisions to kind of broaden the way you think and broaden your general knowledge so that you know how to communicate and you know, the high level, you know, bullet points in those divisions and how to function. But to know the granular level, how to do everything is. You're setting yourself up for failure. And that goes against our entire organizational structure. Right. We have decentralized demand for a reason. Yeah. Because you have good people that know how to do those things. So let them do it.
- [40:18]
B
Let them do it. Yeah.
- [40:20]
A
Don't lean so much into, you know, your Googles or your.
- [40:24]
B
Yeah. And then it also allows your other members that you're, say, empowering or you've got decentralizing command responsibilities, too. It allows them to learn faster, too. You know, you talked about earlier about the, the mass numbers of recruit academy numbers that we've all experienced all around, across the country over, like, last five to seven years. Like, we need our, our people to learn faster at a faster rate than before because there's so many. Right. American Fire Service, what, 50, 60% of the American Fire Service has under six years of experience. I mean, that's never, never before. And so we want them to take on more responsibilities earlier. And these positions that, what you're talking about, the opportunities to step up and say, I think I got this. It only helps them. And that just goes to development, succession planning, all the above. Even if it's. How would you say it? Even if it's like, subconsciously or accidental, like, it's just like you'll be getting experience just on the whim. And it's like, those are, those are times to, to. To lean on. One thing I want to lean on right here is because, you know, Scott Booth and over there, and I think he's retiring in like a month or so or less than that. It might be days for all we know, he already retired. But when he learned that you're gonna be on the show because when. But he, as you know, wrote the paper and did his research at the NFA on vulnerability. And so you had mentioned, like, trust involves vulnerability to it. And I want to. I know that it involves, you know, you mentioned integrity, reliability, honesty, vulnerability and love. But I want to stay on vulnerability because it ties right back into what we were just talking about, because it does take a leader to be vulnerable. To put themself out there and say, you know what? I might not know the answer to this, or I might need help. You, who is, we'll say, lesser in rank, lesser in tenure. Will you please help? Will you please do X, Y or Z? There's a level of vulnerability there. But I'm going to ask instead of asking more general, like, what is vulnerability? You two. Chief, can you give us an example of when you had, whether it be the fire chief or a deputy or somewhere up high where you were literally had to be vulnerable and it showed and it really benefited the team because you were vulnerable?
- [42:36]
A
Yeah, I think, you know, I'll go back to the environment I was in, you know, with the. The training consortium. I had so kind of leading up to that, I had. I'd spent most of my. My time prior to becoming assistant chief in. In the EMS division, so I was, as I mentioned, I was a paramedic. And that was kind of the focus of, you know, that, you know, three, I think, years I spent in that. In that division. When I promoted, I had. I obviously had worked very closely with the training division, you know, during that time frame. However, it wasn't until I became an assistant chief that I was now, you know, managing the EMS division as well as the training division and really working with those guys. You know, I, I had no, you know, I knew they were working at a higher level, but now, you know, I'm. Hey, I don't. Just same kind of thing. I don't know the, you know, oh, hey, why is this class the way it is? Because of this NFPA standard or whatever it is, right? All these little details. Well, then I get assigned to go work for the training consortium. And so my. The depth of detailed knowledge that I had in all of the different things that we were being asked to build and do. There was a lot of people there that knew a lot more than I did. And having to come in and, you know, especially people that, you know, I didn't know. I'm trying to, you know, make sure that, you know, I don't want to Internally, this kind of internal dialogue that, you know, I was having with myself at the time is I don't want to come in and I want them to be confident in my abilities as a leader, but I don't want to seem incompetent because I don't know a lot of the details of this. I've never done this before. I know management academies and this and that, but we're being asked to do so many different things. So sitting down with people and having one on one conversation with them and literally getting to that level, say, hey, the fire chiefs are asking us to do this. I've never done that before. I know you have. Can you help me understand some. Here's what I'm being asked to do. I need you to tell me how realistic this is and what resources we might need to pull that off and we would have some conversations. Okay, this is what I know. I can get you your run point. You're going to take charge on this and you let me know what you need to be able to go in and, you know, openly tell us, you know, some of those guys. Like, I have no idea what this even entails. I never, I've never done that. Exposure to was. It's, it was a hard. As much as we can talk about it and as much as we can say, oh yeah, you know, just be vulnerable and right. You know, like, it's very easy thing to say, but we all have pride, we all have egos, we all, all want to do a great job and we all want to be valued in these things. And it seems in the moment, at least from an emotional standpoint, counter to what, you know, you're sometimes told to do. And so to be able to sit down and openly tell people, I don't know how to do this, I need you to do this, but I am here to support you in making sure that that gets done. And I think kind of the, a couple things that that did is, you know, kind of go back to the relationship piece and just that, that establishment of trust. They appreciated that I would put, or, you know, not just me, but the group, right. The team is putting that on the plate. They're hungry for it, right? They want to contribute, they want to, you know, they want to add value to what it was that we were trying to do. And you could see it in people's faces when you, you did that, when you put that on a plate, like they were, they gobbled it up and they felt like, yes, I'm part of, I'm part of the team. And these are what I'm. These are the things I'm doing as a leader to be able to go into that environment and, and, you know, again, humble yourself, be open and vulnerable and say, I don't know how to do this. I need your help. I think that that is, that's challenging to do. But I will say this, and I, you know, I think knowing Scott, I know he kind of hits on some of these points with some of what he talks about, but, you know, I'm gonna. I may butcher how you work this, but I think it's very, very true. Just a simple acknowledgment of I can do this much, but we can do this much. Like, we can go so much farther as a team. I think there's that old saying of if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go fast, far, go together. I think that kind of embodies that, that vulnerability, right? Like you, you want to reach, you know, great distances. You're not going to do it by yourself. It's. It's not possible. It may not be as fast as you like. You know, there's some stuff you have to work through, but, you know, that, you know, I think trusting your people and trust the process.
- [47:41]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I love it. I mean, that's, that's so well said. And I mean, would you say that it's good to just to go one step further with vulnerability? Because, I mean, I love it. But some environments are going to be more, we'll say, conducive to vulnerability. We'll say. So I'll use an example, and I want to kind of see how you. How to navigate this type of. Let's say you're building a team. Let's say company level, right? You're building a team. And you, as we'll say, the formal leader of that team, you know, have the philosophy, you encourage your team to, you know, be a little more vulnerable. You lead by example and, and say you're a team that works together for an extended period of time, say two to three years, and then everyone is, due to the dynamic that we're in, are inherently more vulnerable as leaders themselves. But then let's say everyone goes out, they promote out, they go to different crews, different shifts, whatever, and then now suddenly they're in an environment that's less conducive, we'll say, to vulnerability. And so there's a challenge there because we've built up these leaders to have this characteristics of being vulnerable in their space. But then they say promote up and they go to a different division, different assignment. And now it's like vulnerability is looked at as a weakness in that new spot. We'll say that's challenging, right? Because, you know, you, you vulnerability, you expose yourself, right? And it's, it's, it's helpful in some areas and it can hinder you in others. And so talk about as a emerging leader, like, how does one navigate that earlier in the career knowing that like, you know, I'm still young in my career, but vulnerability is challenging in some spaces.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah, I think it's challenging in a lot of spaces. I think for different reasons. I think on a personal note, it can be challenging. Just again, it takes some level of humility to be able to do that, right. Even just for ourselves to do that. I think there's a fear, you know, and I've experienced this too. You know, I think there's a fear that, you know, I mean, I think my assumption is a lot of people kind of experience, you know, some level, you know, imposter syndrome or something. Like, oh man, if people actually knew that, I don't have any idea what I'm talking about, like they're never gonna, you know, I don't belong here or I'm not good enough or whatever. It's kind of negative self talk that can kind of sometimes creep into our minds. And, and I think that that is, again, I mean, I think that's a trap. I think that there are, you know, as we, you know, you move into these different leadership positions that you have, you know, albeit whatever process internally in each organization, there's variability in those, but you have exhibited some skills and abilities at some point that have gotten you to that point, right? There's some things that you have done and I think you can't discredit those. Not to say that, you know, we're all perfect or there, you know, there aren't people who, you know, may be better at certain things than others, but you're there for a reason. And so I think have some confidence in that. You know, you know, each of us as an individual, right. We all bring value for different reasons and lean into those things. I think it starts with knowing yourself, but also, you know, being able to, you know, again, just acknowledge, like people aren't going to think less of me because I don't know the answer to something. And I think that there's a, there's a dynamic there as a new leader or, you know, an emerging leader. As you mentioned, there's this feeling of I need to, I need to prove myself right away. I need to show people that, you know, I have, I'm going to be good in the spot value number. I want to, I want to get going. I think that that, like that mindset can steer you away from that vulnerability. And that's out of, you know, whether that's fear of failure, you know, fear of, you know, loss of confidence that people, because, you know, I didn't know the answer. And so I would say that at least in my experience, and I do know that there's probably some environments out there. I can't say that I've necessarily experienced it personally, that, you know, that vulnerability may be exploited or if somebody takes advantage of that or you know, if you openly say, hey, I don't know, I need some help on this, or we can, I can't do this alone. I need you guys to get this. If somebody exploits that, I think that's a deeper, there's a, there's a different issue there. I think that because if most people in, at least in my experience, when you are, when you open yourself up and you, and you are vulnerable in front of that group, they actually appreciate that and I think it actually earns you some leadership capital. Because now they, you know, they know, hey, if this person is willing to come in here and say, I don't know the answers to these things, I need your help, then it takes a fair amount of honesty and openness and transparency to be able to do that. And I think that helps establish that trust and that longer term relationship. You're going to probably be more approachable and it's going to help with those relationships. If the environment, if there's, you know, for lack of a better term, if there's some kind of toxic, toxic culture or toxic environment where that vulnerability is exploited, I don't think that's on the individual, on the leader who's expressing that vulnerability. I think that there are some deeper seated issues that may need to be dealt with or addressed. And that is, that's probably a longer conversation with some of those individuals. Right. But I have, I would, I would wager a bet that that's, that's gotta be in the small minority of situations.
- [53:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's good. I always ask this question revolved around like I pick one of the, we'll say the topics that we've, we've hit on and I ask this. And so I want to see what this goes. So what would the fire service look like, Chief, if we were all more vulnerable in Situation.
- [53:58]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that. I think that you might see. You might see improvement or. I don't know. That's not even the right word. Faster growth or easier growth and easier change. The reason I say that is that, you know, as we talked about earlier, right, change is hard. It's not easy. And it doesn't matter fire service or something else, right? Like, it's just. It's just that, you know, people get their routines. They, you know, we like things to be easy. That's inherent human nature. But I think that when you're vulnerable, it allows. That improved vulnerability allows for more meaningful and sometimes what we might call a difficult conversation to happen. And it creates an environment where those conversations are much, much more productive. You preserve relationships, you have more meaningful dialogue. You can actually work through conflict and challenge much more productively. You establish better relationships. And I think that those are all key, fundamental components to be able to navigate change. And so I think in the Irish, you know, the old adage, right? Like, yeah, yes, but the. Whether we want to acknowledge or not, I know we're always changing, and we have to, you know, it's a matter of, you know, survival and safety. And, you know, the community demands it, right? I mean, they, they. They set the standard for, you know, by which we, you know, have to then respond to. So it is forever changing, and it will always change. And I think that we have to just be willing and open to that. Whether we want to have that change or not. It's not up to us to decide, right? The community makes those decisions, society makes those decisions. And so by being more vulnerable, I think it just lends itself to be able to navigate those changes much, much more productively. That's.
- [56:21]
B
And that's. That's a win, right? And I'll just sum it up here by being a little more vulnerable. The fire service would be faster at growth, easier to change, be able to navigate difficult conversations, improve relationships, being able to work through conflict better and build stronger relationships. I mean, so I. If, with all that being said, if being a little more vulnerable individually and organizationally and we're able to accomplish, you know, get to some of that, I think done right, it's. It's unarguable that we need to be a little more vulnerable. So before we go to the leadership challenge, Chief, here's the last question here. If you can give one advice, one advice for young leaders today, what would it be?
- [57:04]
A
Man, I. I think that it's tough, right? Like, there's so many different aspects of. Of leadership. And there's so much that I think we would all want to say, you know, to leaders. I think that, you know, you know, being disciplined and. And, you know, leading by example and good work ethic and all these other things. Right. Like, those are all, you know, build relationships and all that stuff. That's all fantastic. And I don't mean to take any of that away, but I think that, you know, for me, based on my experience and, you know, what I have found to be successful is just having a high degree of humility. I think is, you know, if I could just pick one thing, that's what it would be and kind of just expand on that a little bit. Yeah, we, you know, it. A lot of what, you know, again, in my experiences, I've kind of discussed some of those things. Being able to acknowledge maybe a mistake or being able to acknowledge that, you know, again, I don't know, everything. Being willing to listen to other people. I think that those are all things that, you know, make a good leader. And I think it's. It's hard, like we said at the beginning in your leadership position, because there's this draw. There's this strong drive to be, you know, good. Nobody wants to come to work and fail. But I can tell you, I, you know, as we all know, right. I think this is. Most of us are aware of this. We learn so much more from failure than we ever do from our successes.
- [58:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [58:56]
A
And the only way that you can actually grow and actually get value out of that is. Is through humility and a lot of reflection on that. Being willing to, you know, spend some time and. And, you know, really just dig into some of those, you know, postmortems, right? We dig into some, you know, some failures, and, hey, let's figure out what this, you know, Covid was a big thing for me. You know, that was. I think it was for all of us. Right. Like, looking back at, you know, I was helping to drive different policies and decisions and, you know, having offline conversations with, you know, firefighters, like, why. Why are you making us do this? You know, and such difficult positions. Will, after, you know, you go back and you can't help but to go back and reflect on those things and think, you know, man, I should have done this differently. I should have done this differently. Well, had I not gone through that process as a leader, I wouldn't have had that opportunity to learn and grow. But you have to be able to acknowledge those things. And I think, you know, what goes in, you know, along that or in that same vein is, you know, being, you know, give yourself some grace. Yeah, great. For sure. You know, and, and I would ask, you know, other, you know, other, you know, whether it's a supported leader or just other members of organizations like give your leadership grace as well and, and understand that they're people, you know, they, they make mistakes and, you know, afford them some of that, that same grace and hopefully that's reciprocated. Right. Nobody's perfect. Nobody expects perfection. They shouldn't. But again, I think kind of just going back to that, I think that humility and being able to show that and allowing others to be that humility, I think that will trickle down and also just kind of culturally help change that environment as well.
- [60:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, 100%. And I heard humility, again, vulnerability, but then failure. I mean, it's okay. We're not perfect, you know, if you can lean on failure. And the thing is about failure too is we're going to fail a lot. So if we don't look at failure and reflect. You mentioned reflect, take the opportunity to be humble and say, you know what, maybe I didn't do a good job or maybe I do need to improve. We're missing so many opportunities to grow because we fail so much. And if we just ignore the failures, you're missing so many opportunities to grow. And if you only look at successes, it's like you're just missing out on a portion of growth. So thank you for, for that, Chief.
- [61:21]
A
I would add too, like, don't let, don't let fear of failure hold you back either. I mean, that's something that I've been, you know, definitely guilty of. Whether that's, you know, for whatever reason, you know, don't. That should be looked at as, you know, again, I'm not talking about, you know, high risk failure on the fireground. I'm talking about, you know, you know, some of those decisions. I think that it should be okay to fail as long as you're using it as a tool to get better.
- [61:54]
B
Absolutely.
- [61:56]
A
Don't be paralyzed by that.
- [61:58]
B
Wow. Well said. Don't be paralyzed by that. I like that. That's. That's really good. Well, the leadership challenge, Chief. So we're here today because Chief Tacoma, Siano Stallings invited you to be their guest. And, and that's why we're here. I mentioned Scott Booth seconded the. Seconded. Seconded via the challenge. So thank you for spending the hour with us today, but to further this conversation, to further the podcast, because without a challenge we don't go anywhere because I don't do any of the challenges. So is there someone else out there that you'd like to invite so they can share a perspective on leadership?
- [62:36]
A
Yeah. You know, when you first asked us, there's a. Multiple names that came to mind, but, you know, the. There's an individual. I struggled a little bit with this just because he's also within our organization here at West Pearson. I didn't want my bias to kind of take over, but I do think I need to add a tremendous amount of value and just to kind of give just a brief. He was a professional athlete, played in the World cup for rugby, so he has kind of a unique background and has some. Some great perspectives on team. He's got a great talk on, you know, four pillars of leadership, but he's our newest ops chief, assistant chief of operations here at West Pierce. Okay. His name is Chad Erskine, and I would love to hear some of what he has to say. I think he'd add a lot of value to what you're doing.
- [63:32]
B
Yeah. Awesome. Well, you said something important, which I'll just highlight it here because you mentioned, like, you know, keeping it in house. I think that's awesome. Right. Because I think part of a leader's job, we'll say, just from my opinion, is to bring up others. Right. Because like you talked about followership earlier, you know that this individual is. Has a. Has a message. And I always say, like, what good does it do for us organizationally, a team community, if we know that there's people out there that can inspire others, motivate others, help others? But we're not providing those platforms for them to share. It's like, what good is it that they are a great leader? Like, they need to be sharing in any platform that they can. So thank you for. For inviting someone in your own organization. And it's Wes Pierce gets. Gets another perspective on the show, and I love it. I love it. So thank you. And I'll gather his information from you and reach out with the challenge and see if he'd be willing to add a perspective. So I do want to say thank you for your time today, Chief. Before we do close, though, I'll give you this opportunity. What would you like to leave our listeners with before we close today's episode?
- [64:45]
A
I. I think one of the things that we talk about a lot in the fire service, at least we have been internally, and you kind of hit on something just a minute ago. You look across the country and there are large percentage, roughly half of firefighters have very short 10 years so far in the industry. And I will leave us with this just kind of not just about mentorship, developing other people, but kind of looking at the big picture, including the systems and the different things that we do. But there's a. There's an old Greek proverb and I don't have in front of me, so hopefully I don't mess it up too much. But, you know, it says, you know, societies become great when old men plant trees in whose shade they will never see. I just recently kind of shared that internally with our. And I think that if you just kind of let that marinate for a little bit and think about what are we doing for the future of the fire service and what are we doing for each other, and a lot of the people that have, you know, that will come behind us to set them up for success and, you know, to keep. Keep our. Not just our industry growing and healthy, but also the people, they're going to come behind us. And so, anyway, I'll let people kind of chew on that a little bit, but I hope that that resonates with folks when it comes to how we develop our future leaders.
- [66:18]
B
Well, I'm gonna be vulnerable here, Chief, because I have goosebumps. And here's why. 97 episodes ago, and you and I talked about Bill before this episode, he said the exact same thing. He said, plant trees where you'll never be able to sit in the shade of. It's exactly what he said. And you and I talked about Bill, you know, minutes before we recorded. Obviously, we didn't get a chance to chat about. But Bill. But you talk about resonating with that message, and I literally have goosebumps. And we don't. We don't record or we don't publish the recording, but as you said that. I don't know if you saw my facial expression, but he was big on that exact saying. So thank you for that.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah, well, and thanks to, you know, I. To. To you and for what you're doing. And I think that, as I mentioned, I had the opportunity to, you know, work with Bill and work closely with him for a couple years, and he, as I think, for a lot of us, left an amazing impact. So. I didn't know that.
- [67:23]
B
I know.
- [67:23]
A
I figured you just said that. That's crazy. That's.
- [67:29]
B
What a way to close. So thank you, everybody, for tuning in today to the kitchen table. We truly hope you found this time valuable, and we hope we've inspired you to take action, to continue to lead and to spread the leadership conversation. Until next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.