Ep. 99: David Brannan, CHDS NPS Program Director - Stay in the Fight

Summary

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Leadership Conversations @ The Kitchen Table

Episode 99: David Brannan, CHDS NPS Program Director – "Stay in the Fight"

Host: Berlin Maza
Date: June 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Captain Berlin Maza sits down with David Brannan, Program Director at the Center for Homeland Defense and Security, Naval Postgraduate School. Brannan shares insights from his diverse career in law enforcement, research, counterterrorism, and leadership education. The conversation centers on unconventional career paths, the role of mentorship, actionable advice for developing as a leader, the necessity of succession planning, and the importance of challenging bias. Brannan’s witty, candid style infuses the discussion with both hard truths and practical wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brannan’s Unconventional Career Path

• Serendipity in Career Development

  • Brannan attributes much of his career trajectory to chance and necessity rather than grand design.
    • “It was all an accident. I had planned to just surf my whole life away. And then my girlfriend wanted me to have a job with insurance, so I became a cop.” [05:34]
    • Emphasizes adaptability: “All of those life changes were unplanned. They were unconventional. They were not the norm.” [05:56]
  • Transitioned from law enforcement to think-tank research and counterterrorism after a career-ending injury.
  • Moved to Scotland to study under Bruce Hoffman—became motivated to succeed after sacrificing everything to pursue this opportunity.

• Commitment to Learning and Growth

  • “If you sell everything and go do something, you will be motivated to be successful. It’s sort of like burning the boats. You have to make it.” [09:22]

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2. The Impact of Mentorship

• Value of Seeking Great Mentors

  • “Getting the right mentor is invaluable... Mentors have opened doors for me in ways I could never have imagined.” [13:35]
  • Importance of being proactive:
    • “You gotta have the balls to go... I want your help. I recognize your brilliance.” [29:46]
    • Don’t seek mentorship unless you’re ready to be challenged.
      • “If you’re not a person that wants to be challenged, don’t identify a world class mentor and ask for their help... they’re going to hurt your feelers.” [32:59]
  • Advice for Approaching a Mentor
    • “Identify the mission set you’re passionate about. Do the foundational work—reading, talking to people—then go seek the mentor.” [31:26]

• Reciprocity: Giving Back

  • “If you’re not investing in others, then shame on you—you are asking somebody to take their time and invest in you. If you’re not willing to invest in others, why should anybody invest in you?” [34:09]
  • Mentorship as a two-way street, and the necessity of also being willing to be called on your “BS.”

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3. Actionable Leadership Lessons

• Say Yes and Get Uncomfortable
  • “Preparation and you help create the opportunity by saying yes. You got to say yes and put yourself out there.” [21:45]
  • “The only way you can be in the fight is to prepare for the fight, or else you get your ass kicked.” [23:43]
• Discipline & Self-Improvement
  • “Discipline is the difference. That means you’ll do it because you have trained to do it.” [25:11]
• Kill Your Television, Read Books
  • “Kill your television and read books... If you do not read about what other people before you have done, you are not going to be able to lead effectively.” [27:47]
• Be a Critical Thinker & Challenge Bias
  • “At the point you want to be a leader, you are also deciding you need to be a critical thinker. You’ve got to recognize your own bias. You’ve got to challenge your own bias.” [53:34]
  • “It’s not always necessary to obliterate, to challenge. Asking questions about an assertion of bias can get people to think about it without it becoming such a conflict.” [57:20]

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4. Succession Planning

• Critical Importance of Succession at All Levels
  • “People get killed, that’s why. The mission will fail if you lose people and you don’t have immediate succession.” [40:56]
  • Not just about top-level positions—must include support staff and frontline personnel.
    • “Support personnel are critical nodes that we often forget.” [45:41]
    • “First line supervisors are so freaking important, it’s stupid… That role is the most important for me in the commander’s intent being worked out throughout the department.” [48:33]
• Proactive Redundancy and Preparation
  • “If I can’t be replaced tomorrow by somebody who’s effective… then I will have failed my organization.” [41:17]
  • “Every single level has to be working regularly with those people to make sure the vision and leadership is being translated all the way down.” [48:56]

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5. Challenging Ego and Comfort Zones

• Self-Examination & Openness to Change
  • “If you have it figured out, you probably don’t have it figured out. If you are not still struggling, you’re probably not in the fight anymore.” [00:02], [71:15]
• Ego as a Barrier to Growth
  • “Man, I have struggled with [ego]… If you showed up here knowing everything already, why the hell are you here?” [37:16]
• Be Willing to Be Challenged
  • “Be willing to be challenged by equals… That is a form of education.” [66:15, 68:50]

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6. Book Recommendations (for Leaders)

• Meditations – Marcus Aurelius
  • “You should have a copy of Meditations. These weren’t written for someone else—this was built to himself about his own mistakes and understanding.” [60:28]
• The Social Construction of Reality – Berger and Luckman
  • “It’s tough going, and it’s worth every second so you understand how in groups use their bias.” [61:02]
• Call Sign Chaos – General Mattis
  • “Definitely worth your time. I got a lot from him.” [62:13]
• Extreme Ownership – Jocko Willink
  • “A really light book… reduces your understanding for your people to something they can remember.” [62:36]
• Note: Brannan offers to send a longer list.

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7. Final Leadership Advice

• Train for the Known, Educate for the Unknown

  • “Train for the known and then you educate for the unknown. Leadership is all about the unknown. You cannot train for the leadership requirements that are going to be coming.” [64:54]

• Continuous Self-Critique

  • “Are you critical of yourself? Are you a critical thinker? Do you know how to attack a problem?” [66:40]

• Quotable Last Word:

  “If you have it figured out, you probably don’t have it figured out. If you are not still struggling, you’re probably not in the fight anymore. Be willing to challenge yourself so that you are leading your people in the most effective way because they deserve your very best. And that means you have to show up, say yes, take action that's uncomfortable, and be challenged.”
  (David Brannan, 71:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Career Progression & Mentorship

  “Getting someone who will invest their time in you… that’s the only thing you can’t buy.” [13:35]
  “If you don’t find mentors, you may get smart, but you are going to fight it the whole way.” [13:41]

• On Critical Supervision

  “First line supervisors are so freaking important, it’s stupid.” [48:33]

• On Reading and Self-Education

  “Kill your TV… while you’re in the gym, don’t listen to music. Listen to books that can make you a more effective leader.” [27:47]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Intro & Overview: [00:02–03:25]
• Career Path & Life Accidents: [05:00–12:09]
• Mentorship – Value & How To Seek: [13:35–35:49]
• Actionable Advice for Leaders: [24:06–33:00]
• Succession Planning: [40:18–48:14]
• First Line Supervisors’ Critical Role: [48:33–51:47]
• Challenging Bias/Ingroup Narratives: [52:25–58:44]
• Book Recommendations: [59:53–64:23]
• Final Leadership Thoughts: [71:15]

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Takeaways for Listeners (Leader's Challenge)

• Say Yes, Show Up, Embrace Discomfort
• Seek Out and Become Mentors
• Invest in Succession at Every Level
• Become a Critical Thinker and Challenge Bias
• Commit to Lifelong Learning and Self-Discipline
• Read “Meditations,” “Social Construction of Reality,” “Call Sign Chaos,” and “Extreme Ownership”

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“Spread the leadership conversation.”
For more, check out the Center for Homeland Defense and Security and follow up on suggested readings.

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Next Leadership Challenge:
David Brannan nominates retired FDNY Assistant Chief Rich Blattis as the next guest.

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Transcript

[David Brannan]

If you have it figured out, you probably don't have it figured out. If you are not still struggling, you're probably not in the fight anymore. Be willing to challenge yourself so that you are leading your people in the most effective way because they deserve your very best. And that means you have to show up, say yes, take action that's uncomfortable, and be challenged.

[Podcast Host]

The First Responder Liaison Network is proud to present to you the Kitchen Table podcast. Join us as we explore leadership from perspectives around the globe. From firefighters to fire Chiefs, civilians to CEOs, our conversations have one simple goal, build more leaders. Welcome to the 99th episode of the Kitchen Table. Today we go down the California coast to Monterey as we visit the center for Homeland Defense and Security's Naval Postgraduate School. As we welcome David Brannan to the show who is the program director at the school. David Brannan started his career as a law enforcement officer in Southern California, where he spent six of those years on SWAT. Mr. Brannan was a researcher at the think tank RAND Corporation working on terrorism issues out of the Washington, D.C. officer. He was directly across from the Pentagon at RAND on 9 11, which radically accelerated what he was involved in. He was a director of security policy for Internal security in Iraq in 2003 and 2004, working for the Department of Defense on an intergovernmental loan from Rand. Mr. Brannan has taught terrorism analysis, adaptive public safety, leadership, discourse and ethics in homeland security, as well as Homeland Security Capstone, among others, since 2003, with some breaks for wars and other interruptions. Good afternoon, Mr. Brannon. Thank you for being the 99th guest on the show today. How are you?

[David Brannan]

Very glad to be here. Thank you. And please don't run to turn this off just because I was. I'm a recovering cop.

[Podcast Host]

We won't hold that against you for many reasons, but we have a lot of police officers and law enforcement on this show. So we welcome the perspective because perspective matters. Before we jump into today's conversation, I would like to say it is an honor to have you on this show. Individual that's been a part of the Naval Postgraduate School for many, many years. Professor there teaches a lot of classes. You've obviously been involved with many things with the federal government, military, law enforcement. And I had the pleasure of meeting you on campus just a week ago at the beautiful facility down there in Monterrey. So before we just jump into this, can you share a little bit about David Brannan, anything you'd like to share for our listeners before we start talking?

[David Brannan]

Sure. Married for 150 years 2 kids. I like to fight. I've boxed most of my life. I'm 66 and I started fighting when I was 14. So, yeah, I do love to fight. I care a lot about policy, which is kind of a weird thing, but I care because it has an impact on people's lives and those leadership decisions that are often rooted in budget or personnel issues are going to come back to roost. So I care about policy. That's a weird thing. I'm also kind of crazy about history, in particular the fur trade era. And I know that is a bizarre thing to be interested in, but it's the truth. I build saddles. And I like livestock. I like livestock more than I like most people. So. Yeah. And then I do counterterrorism stuff, primarily theologically motivated counterterrorism. But anything that's counterterrorism, ethics, I like that stuff.

[Podcast Host]

Well, we need people that are into everything that you just said, whether it be counter terrorism. Right. Whether it be, you know, your early career in law enforcement, whether the perspective that you have puts you in a position to do things that others can't. Put that out there. How is it that you got into, first of all, law enforcement, you know, but then you went to counterterrorism, you went to work for the federal government, but then ultimately, how did you end up at the Naval Postgraduate School?

[David Brannan]

It was all an accident. And I'm not joking. It was all absolutely an accident. I had planned to, to just surf my whole life away. And I had a girlfriend, and when we decided to get married, she said I had to have a job with insurance. So that's how I ended up being a cop. Went, took the test, and they hired me. That was a really odd thing. I, I can tell you, when I was 18, 19, I was trying to decide, you know, is it going to be a career criminal or was it going to be a cop type of thing? Which is tragic but true. And I will tell you that all of the rest of those life changes and, and I've been very fortunate to have a lot of fun in my life. But all of those life changes were unplanned. They were unconventional. They were not the norm of how you do things. I did not go to college right out of high school. I moved to the mountains and trapped in a lean to for three and a half months. And that is not how people end up going to think tanks. So, you know, that's, it was just all accidents. I, you know, I really loved my time as a cop. I didn't, you know, I didn't, I wasn't planning to do that my whole life, but I really enjoyed it. I found I had a kind of a knack for talking to people. And then I found swat and I spent six years on SWAT team and it was fantastic, really fun. And it put together the physical with the mental. And anybody who thinks that is all about just the physical is absolutely wrong. It's, it's also a very much mental game. And I had some of my early real successes on the SWAT team. My, I like everybody. I started out on the perimeter, but I went very quickly to the entry team. And then after I got promoted a couple of times, I ended up running the counter sniper unit, which was problematic, but also really good. Maybe we can come back to that because I learned a lot about leadership when I went to that part of the team. But I did get wounded and they retired me. And that, I don't know what I'm allowed to say on this podcast, but it pissed me off because I had no desire to be retired. I, I wanted, I wanted to run the SWAT team and so I, you know, when they retired me, I started building saddles for the public because I've always done that sort of thing and, but my injuries made it so I couldn't cowboy much. And so I decided to go back to school. Friend of mine who worked for CIA suggested that I look up a guy named Bruce Hoffman. And I hope that your listeners know who he is, and if they don't, they should probably look him up because the nation's foremost terrorism specialist, he hates the word expert, but I'll call him a terrorism specialist. He's long association with the Naval Postgraduate School, but he was in Scotland at the University of St. Andrews. And so I sold everything, which did not make my wife particularly happy since it was a house full of her antiques and a bunch of horses and, and a house and all that stuff. Then we moved to Scotland and I went to school. I will tell you that if you sell everything and go do something, you will be motivated to be successful. It's sort of like burning the boats. You have to make it. And for me that was a good thing. It didn't, I mean, I think it, it didn't scare me. I, I, I actually like the pressure that it put on me. Yeah. And so I, I went to study under Bruce Hoffman and it was kind of the epicenter of the counterterrorism world. Right at that point. Paul Wilkinson was there, Magnus Ranstorpe, Rohan Gunaratna, and then of course, Bruce Hoffman And Bruce Hoffman, you know, he's. He wrote Inside Terrorism, which is just coming out with its fifth edition. And that's kind of the basic building blocks for, if your readers are interested in those issues, for understanding that kind of threat in our world today.

[Podcast Host]

And then what year was that that you went over to when you sold everything, went over to Scotland?

[David Brannan]

1996. 96.

[Podcast Host]

How is it that you just said, screw it, I'm going to Scotland? Like, how is it that you were able to get connected and then just start a whole new career in a different country and then take off with that?

[David Brannan]

Yeah, again, it was a mistake. I didn't understand how the world worked. I barely made it through high school. I was busy surfing and doing sports. And so when I applied to the university, they were like, no, thank you, but no. And so I said, I'm gonna pay you for a year up front. And then at the end of the first semester, if I'm not cutting it, just take the haul, the money, but let me come. You got nothing to lose. And for whatever reason, they allowed it. And I, I got lucky and I went up, knocked on Bruce Hoffman's door day one, and said, I just sold everything so I can come study under you. Will you please help me? And he did. He, he, you know, he. He was from RAND in Santa Monica earlier and then had taken this academic posting. He was an amazing mentor. And if I can just have a little caveat here.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely.

[David Brannan]

I've been fortunate to have lots of different careers, but in every one of those careers, and early on, I was not seeking them out, they found me by accident. But later on, I did seek out mentors. And getting the right mentor is invaluable. Agreed. Getting someone who will invest their time in you, and time is the only thing you can't buy. Getting somebody who cares enough about the next generation of practitioners or leaders or managers, whatever it might be. And I would like in a little bit to discuss my view on the difference of those. But if. If you don't find mentors, you may get smart, but you are going to fight it the whole way. My mentors have opened doors for me in ways that I never could have imagined. And my whole goal is to open doors for the right people to take departments and agencies and whole disciplines, I hope, to new levels that I could never do, but that I can help facilitate. When I was after. After I was in St. Andrews, Bruce left St. Andrews, and on the strength of my master's thesis there, they offered a PhD for me to do a PhD. And I had. That was not my intention to do, but. But, you know, they made the offer and gave me a big head. And I thought, oh, yeah, I can do this. At the same time, he had me apply to be a summer intern, which I will tell you, was, you know, it was a bit odd. I was. I was 40 years old, applying to be an intern, and all these other people were 23, 24, 25. But again, I was just stupid enough to think it didn't matter. And I enjoyed the work. I like to work, so I just work really hard. And that worked out okay for me while. While I was there and working on various counterterrorism projects for rand. And, you know, you end up working for the intelligence community and you end up working on policy issues for government, which is great fun because it gives you a broad perspective on what is needed at different points in the government. And it's not all the same thing. But 911 happened, and I was across the street at the RAND offices, across the street from the Pentagon. And that radically changed what counterterrorism meant for the next 20 years. And, yeah, so that, that was. That was just an accident that I was in that place at that time with that level of people. It wasn't that I had planned to do that kind of thing. And then, you know, we went to Iraq. And there was a theological angle to that conflict. There was a terrorism angle, there was an insurgency angle, there was a law enforcement challenge. And those were all my strong suits. I had degrees in theologically motivated terrorism, and I was an ex cop. And so that they gave me to. The Coalition Provisional Authority to be the Director of Security Policy for. Then that was an accident. It was. And it was. I was in that place, having developed those skills beforehand, but I didn't plan to go do that kind of thing.

[Podcast Host]

I'm going to interrupt for a minute, David, if I may.

[David Brannan]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Podcast Host]

So I heard a lot here. So I heard. I'm gonna. I wanna say a couple things. I heard mistake, accident. I've heard things, found you by accident. I hear this is about your plan. But then you ended up in St. Andrews. You ended up being mentored by Bruce Hoffman. You got your master's, then you got a PhD, you got to work with the federal government, and you came back around and said it was never your intent, it was accident. But what I'm going to ask is, to an extent, that's not true. Meaning you have done something to put yourself in position, whether it was your work ethic, whether it was Your reputation, whether, because there's no such thing as luck. Luck is met with opportunity. Preparation, meeting opportunity. And so why I say that is, although some of these things may not have been your plan, you built yourself up for those opportunities to be there. And so can you talk about how

[David Brannan]

sure you,

[Podcast Host]

David Brannon I'm only imagining that you had the accolades of reputation, the work ethic, the experience to then these accidents, quote unquote, took place.

[David Brannan]

Yeah. So the specifics of where I ended up were not my plan. I couldn't have planned that. My, I was raised in a military family, lived all over the world. And so there is duty and there is mission. And that was made a part of my life early on. And so I, I understood the need for people thinking people, especially people who are self critical. Critical. And I don't mean critical in a, like you're a bad person, but critical about looking and examining the way you live your life, that those kinds of people need to step up to whatever the mission is. So, and that became a part of my life when I was a cop. Mission is a part of the life in, in the same, but different way that firefighters are not about putting wet stuff on hot stuff. They're there about the mission. The mission is the more important thing than the technical capabilities that you, that you display at a given incident. Right. That's true. That's certainly true across the board in law enforcement. It's true. And, and I want to say this, you do have to be competent to do the technical part of it too. Right. And you don't get that the day before the mission. So that's about preparation that you were talking about meeting. Opportunity. I would say it's more than that. It's preparation. And you help create the opportunity by saying yes. You got to say yes and you got to put yourself out there, willing to talk to the people who are world leaders in these things rather than, I mean, if you only work with a certain caliber of person and you don't try to work with the, you know, the high speed crew, you're gonna, you may be at the top of that slower group, but you're never gonna have to push yourself. And I love when somebody pushes me. And I think that has to do with my fighting. And I, I, I had a Guy, a trainer 10 years ago said you're only happy when somebody hits you with the left hook. And it isn't exactly true. That's not exactly true. But that does mean you're in the fight, you're not watching the fight. From the stands, right?

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[David Brannan]

You're in the fight, and I want to be in the fight. And the only way you can be in the fight is to prepare for the fight, or else you get your ass kicked.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[David Brannan]

All right, I'm sorry.

[Podcast Host]

No, no, no.

[David Brannan]

We're.

[Podcast Host]

We're allowed to say. We're allowed to say some of that here. That's all right. Okay, now, sorry about that. If I can. If I can lean on that a little more, because this podcast is.

[David Brannan]

We're.

[Podcast Host]

We. It's. I like to lean on actionable items, things that we can, you know, lean on immediately. And so one thing that I love what you said is you got to say yes. And the reason I love that is in your case, but also in generalities, what is it that other people can do? The listeners will say, what can they do to put themselves in those positions? And you said one of them is, you got to say yes. You got to put yourself in a space where, you know, you may not be leading. You know, you might find yourself leading a group, but if you're just in that group and you're the highest performer in that group, you're not pushing yourself. You might need to be in a different group. You might need to be in a group that needs a lot of. That needs a lot of help. So you're pushing yourself to push your team so everyone is lifted to become better. So another actionable item for the. For the crowd today is what else can they be doing to put themselves in positions to. To be highly successful? And in your case, one of them was say yes, but what else?

[David Brannan]

Okay, well, you asked. Yes, I believe in discipline. That's. You know, that probably is a result of my military father, the way I was raised. But what I have found is that some days you don't feel like leading, some days you don't feel like operating at a high level. But discipline is the difference. That means you will do it because you have trained to do it and. And you have made yourself do it. Recently, I. Recently I was reading about. This is embarrassing. Okay, I'm sorry. But I was reading about working out for older people. I'm 66 years old now. And it was saying that you have to give yourself more rest days. I hate rest days. I think they are a terrible idea. Now, they say that it. That's when your muscle grows, and that's when you're rejuvenating a. I don't care anything about muscle. I care about having a fast jab and a really strong right cross. But but for me, I don't care if that actually, it's more important that I show up five o', clock, I roll out of the rack, and I am going to the gym to work out. Yes, but why? Because I'm disciplined. To get it done, damn it. I'm going to get this done. I'm gonna make my bed. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go work out. I, I am going to make sure that I go through the steps that lead to success. And another thing then, discipline, and this may not be popular either, is kill your television and read books. You know, we are not an illiterate nation now, but if we do, you don't read. You know, you know who Mattis is, right?

[Podcast Host]

Mattis. Remind me, I might know Mattis.

[David Brannan]

He was a Marine general. He hated to be called Mad Dog Mattis. He ended up the SEC Death it. But anyway, they. He, he said, you leaders do not have enough time to make all of the mistakes they need to understand. So if they're not reading about what other people before them have done, they are not going to be able to lead effectively. And this is what I tell my people at. I teach a leadership class at the Naval Postgraduate School here, and I beg with them, kill your television and read more. And while you're in the gym, don't listen to music. Listen to books that can make you a more effective leader. And those are not necessarily leadership books, right? Some. I mean, at some point the leadership tropes just become ridiculous. Right?

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely.

[David Brannan]

We know what they are, but. And you need some of that, but you don't need all of it all the time. Right? But what you do need are people who in print are going to mentor for you. What an effective leader does in a given situation that either you haven't faced or that you faced and you didn't overcome it in the way that you want to overcome it. I'm all about mentorship. I absolutely believe now you've got me all over the place.

[Podcast Host]

I love it. I love it.

[David Brannan]

But we ought to be seeking out the right mentors.

[Podcast Host]

Oh, let's stay there. Let's go there. I love it. How do we do that? How do we seek out the right mentors? What does that mean?

[David Brannan]

By understanding the discipline that you're trying to operate in and finding those people and then going to them personally and saying, I want your help. I recognize this leadership quality. I recognize this quality and what you do, and I want your help to do that. Bruce Hoffman had no reason to take me on, and he did Because I went and said, I want your help. I recognize your brilliance, but you can't do that with, you have to do it with knowledge. You have to do it with a foundation that says, I, I've read on this and I know that I need to know more, but I'm looking for help to get there. Would, would you help me? If you don't do that, you're not gonna get what you need. I mean, you gotta have, you gotta have the balls to go, I love

[Podcast Host]

it, I love it. So would you say that, Would you say, for anyone that's listening here today, one of the first things they need to do is to get up and say, who do I want to be my mentor? And pick up that phone, make a coffee date, schedule a lunch, and literally ask them sometime in the very near future, hey, would you consider being a mentor of mine? Because of abc?

[David Brannan]

I would do it slightly different.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, how would you do it? How would you do it?

[David Brannan]

And first of all, I would identify the mission set that you're passionate about. It can't be just anything. And when it comes to you fire folks are crazy. We are. But. Yes, but I mean, it is such a vast discipline, right? I, I work with a lot of FDNY people in the program here. And fire is a really diverse thing in, in fdny. So you can't just go, I want your help. You got to go to the, you got to identify the mission set. Then you have to have done some foundational work. And that for me is always about reading and talking to people. I, I like to talk. I, I want to talk to people because I want to hear views that are not my view and I want to be challenged by that. If you're not a person that wants to be challenged, don't really identify a world class mentor and ask for their help because they don't have time for BS and they're going to hurt your feelers.

[Podcast Host]

They are.

[David Brannan]

So do the, do the work up front, know what it is you're trying to accomplish, and then be adaptable when they tell you you need to think about doing this. And that can be very painful, number one, because it takes you outside of your comfort zone, more than likely. I told you, I think before this takes me outside of my comfort zone, but that you need to be able to operate in an ambiguous and uncomfortable environment. And firefighters, that's what you guys do for a living, for crying out loud. You operate in ambiguous and uncomfortable environments. Need to be able to extend that to that whole leadership issue. The Management issue, whatever, whatever it is that you're wanting to, to get smart on. And then it doesn't stop there. I'm not, I apologize. I'm flapping my lips too much here. But if you're not investing in others, then shame on you. You are asking somebody to take their time and invest in you. And if you're not willing to invest in others, why should anybody invest in you? You have to be about that mission set, willing and passionate to care about it. And then last thing I would say is that on the mentorship issue is you better have somebody to call you on your BS, somebody at, the firehouse who is your equal, who can go. Listen, Berlin, I know you. I know the real you. Don't be pulling that crap with me. And I've been really fortunate down through the years to have some people who were not afraid. I, I have a colleague here at the Naval Postgraduate School that we have been in an argument for 30 years now. And he is a fierce competitor and willing to call me on my bs and that is as important to me to mentorship as the up and the down.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[David Brannan]

When it comes to the down. And, and I don't mean that in a lower level because that mentorship relationship, I learned so much from the people I work with. You probably are going to need to have more than one because people go off in divergent ways and we need to. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So I'm going to lean on something. I agree with that 100%. You do need people to call you on your BS and I'm going to come right back to that in a minute. Because when it comes to mentorship, I got a question. Do you think that the majority of people don't have a mentor or don't seek out mentorship because they don't know how to seek a mentor or they don't know the importance of it? Or do you think it's more because their own ego and they say, I don't need a mentor or, you know, I don't. What's the value of a mentor? I don't, you know, I'm, I'm already xyz. Because I've seen both. I have seen both. I've seen people that feel or carry themselves in a way where they don't. They feel they're already really good. We'll say at whatever it is that they do. And so they don't have a mentor. But then I've also seen individuals that don't really know how to go about finding a mentor, don't Know how to, you know, what's the benefit of this mentorship? So do you see both or what do you think is more prominent on why people don't have mentors?

[David Brannan]

Berlin I would. It's not one or the other. It's probably shades of gray throughout that and different. At different times in people's lives. You bring up this ego issue, man, I have struggled with that. I, I have really struggled with that. And I hate to look stupid, and, you know, that's nothing but ego. But if you don't, if I tell my students this all the time, if you showed up here knowing everything already, why the hell are you here? Give that seat to somebody else if you already know everything. And that is what I keep coming back to for myself. I have a lot to learn, and the way I learn invariably is I get it wrong. And then I work with others oftentimes, Oftentimes others who work for me, who can help me solve that problem. You know, it's a hierarchy, but it's not a hierarchy. It better be a network. The network is what's going to make us successful. So, yeah, I think it's probably all, all of the above that you mentioned, but it's, it's different at different points in their life. I, I am working really hard on my ego right now,

[Podcast Host]

and we all should be. First of all, it's about recognition, too. You can ask some people, right? You can ask leaders. We'll say in, in high roles that will sit there and say, I don't have an ego. Right? They'll. They'll literally say that or think that we'll say, I think that we all have an ego. I mean, we, we do. I mean, different levels of egos, right? Some people are, you know, way beyond any, any of us understanding how or why. But, you know, to some extent, some of us just have the, you know, an ego. But I love what you said when you said you should also be investing in others. So if you're looking for a mentor and you're having mentor, you should also have that mindset, too. And I've always said, you got to find a mentor. You got to be a mentor. And I love that because it's you. You have to be what others. You have to be the person for others as much as you want someone to be that person for you. And if you're not, it's selfish is what it is. And so I love mentorship, and I do want to switch gears just a little bit and talk about secession planning, because you are big and we talked about something you want to discuss with secession planning. And succession planning is something that we talk about a lot on the show. In fact, I started a succession planning project, if you will, about a year or so ago. You might know Eric Sailors.

[David Brannan]

I do know Eric Sailors. He was a student of mine.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[David Brannan]

15 years ago.

[Podcast Host]

I'm just now recognizing the yes, he was. So he was obviously enabled post grad graduate. And he was on this podcast about a year and a half ago and he told me about his succession project. And I know, I won't go into the details, a lot of the listeners know about that. But I told Chief Sailors that I was going to copy his project, so I did. He was a guest at the project. It's a quarterly meeting that we host to bring others up. It's all about mentorship, it's all about succession planning. But I took it right from him. And so as we talk about secession planning right now, can you talk just, you know, about why that is so important to you?

[David Brannan]

Yeah, because people get killed, that's why. And the mission will fail if you lose people and you don't have immediate, immediate su. Sec. Succession planning. And so that's certainly true within the fire service, it's certainly true within law enforcement. It is true within the intelligence community. It's true for leaders. Day one. So I'm faculty here at the Naval Postgraduate School. I'm faculty and 20 months ago I was asked to be the program manager for the contract side of, of this program. We have 151 contractors and we have, I think it's 12 government, regular government people. And so day one, I identified those failure points that if they failed, the mission would fail. And one of them is me. If I can't be replaced tomorrow by somebody who's effective, not just a stiff shirt to step in, but somebody who already understands where my vision is trying to take this organization, then I will have failed my organization by not preparing those people. And I, I was very, I'm very fortunate in that this place, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting somebody who wants to do something for the country. And so that, that makes it fairly easy. And I have men and women here who I want to mentor them, but they're so busy teaching me things every, every day that I feel guilty even saying that. Succession planning is not just about the organization though it's at every critical node because organizations fail not necessarily at the leadership team level. They fail at points that we haven't identified until they've been putting under stress when we don't have time to effectively, effectively replace it. Now, at the practitioner level, for instance, in the fire service, you have identified so many different critical nodes that you have redundancy at those places. You know how to move those people up. But leadership and management also has critical nodes that sometimes get overlooked, that aren't the same as the practitioner community.

[Podcast Host]

And

[David Brannan]

so let me just say I think management is about coordinating and directing and scheduling people and resources. Right. That's what I see. Management. And there is a huge body of literature on management out there that will swamp your boat. Okay. And you, you should know some of that literature as it impacts you. Where, where is it that it works for your discipline, for your individual agency, and for you as a person? Because you're going to have to move some of those around. Right. But. And I'll just tell you that my management style is management by walking around. I want absolute interaction with every level of personnel that are working with me to complete this mission. And that means. And in this distributed network that we're in, that means I spend a lot of time on the phone, I spend a lot of time on Zoom. I spend a lot of time, but also going to different offices here on, on base, staying in contact with those, those faculty members, with those staff members, with those support personnel. Yeah, the support personnel are critical nodes that we often forget.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[David Brannan]

And. And just this week, I. Just this week I was one of my personnel, and I'm thrilled for him, is going to take a new position and he's going to move into, you know, his own leadership role. But that was a critical node that 18 months ago I hired redundancy that people said, why do we need that? You're wasting money and resources. And. But when you can see that a person is a thinker and they're trying to go somewhere with their life, at some point they will. Right.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[David Brannan]

And you better be prepared for that person to move. And you should be happy for them to move, too.

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely.

[David Brannan]

Yeah. You. I. Or at least I think you should. We don't. My idea is to support everybody to go where they want to go, because I want them to be in the chair they need to be in for the effectiveness of our mission and for their own personal.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[David Brannan]

Satisfaction. Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

So a question I have here is succession planning doesn't always take place, number one. But when it does take place, oftentimes we see it at the upper levels of organizations. For example, the CEO is leaving, the chief is leaving, the mayor is, you know, is retiring. And then we're Talking about the next mayor, the next chief, the next CEO. Rarely do we talk about it in the context that you're talking about the support personnel, or we'll use fire service specific. The firefighter. Right. We'll talk about the chief, but we won't talk about the firefighter. He's been there 35 years, retiring next week. All the institutional knowledge, boom, gone. So we're not talking enough, in my opinion. Succession planning at those levels. How do we, and I know the answer, more or less the answer. You know, we, we, we help individuals, we create spaces for that individual, whether it be support personnel, firefighter, given the avenues, the, the opportunities to share at any given time. But we don't have programs that, that say, you know, you're leaving in six months, you know, here's your go over the next six months, share everything you got. We don't, we don't have those. We'll say, but we need those. So what's a, what's a way that we can. Succession. Succession plan at those other levels.

[David Brannan]

Yeah, that. You're right on the money here. Okay, so I'm going to speak in relation to law enforcement. Yeah, Levels. Okay. And you'll have to translate it for your community.

[Podcast Host]

But I'm gonna turn on AI here in a minute. No, just kidding.

[David Brannan]

Yeah, there, There you go. Where, where I saw it in law enforcement, where I see it in every, every role that I've had is the first line. Super. They are so freaking important. It's stupid. Okay? It is. And oftentimes we don't pick those people because of their first line supervisory capabilities. We try to train that into them. You know, we send them to some schools. But that role is the most important role for me in the commander's intent being worked out throughout the department, the agency, whatever it might be. But also for identifying the weaknesses. They have to be, they have to show up, they have to be awake, they have to be paying attention. Right. Not just looking for additional money, not just looking for stripes, not just looking for, you know, self aggrandizement. It's. They are the most important people for identifying what is going to have the greatest impact at the operational level. But that's from, from my case. And that means that every single level has to be working on a regular basis with those people to make sure that the vision and leadership, and vision cannot be separated from my way of thinking that the vision of the leadership is being translated. Turn on the AI to translate that vision to the line officers, because they're not going to the Same barbecues. Okay. Leadership and line officers are not going to the same baseball games. They're. They're not necessarily hanging out and drinking beer together. And that is where a lot of the vision takes place. We've. We have to become intimate with those we lead, and we have to make the vision of our leadership something they can appropriate. Because if it's so convoluted and so idiosyncratic to our own minds, it's not going to get translated to something that can be enacted on the ground. And that is a tragedy. Right. If. Even if you have the greatest vision in the world, if it's not being translated by your first line supervisors and those up the line, then you're failing. You're a failure. And nobody wants to be a failure. Right?

[Podcast Host]

Absolutely.

[David Brannan]

Yeah. Vision is really important and empowering people. Yep. With your vision to appropriate that vision in a way that you couldn't even imagine, in a way that they see it clearly, that maybe you don't see it clearly, that's when the great things happen. Right. When they take that and then they go do something in a way you couldn't have imagined. But it, it reaches that ultimate goal. That's absolutely, you know, that's going to inspire people. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Well, another piece, a lasting piece here that I want to cover as you challenging bias.

[David Brannan]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

I mean, I love that. And I know it sounds crazy, like people like bias. You love bias. I love recognizing bias. I love recognizing that bias exists. I love challenging my own biases. I love, you know, understanding that differences exist, but kind of understanding why they exist, where they stem from, why disagreements take place, how do we find common ground? I think bias is innate. It's in us. We all have it due to our upbringings, our experiences, our education, all the above. But challenging it is another thing. Talk about the importance of challenging bias, just surrounding kind of everything we talked about today, whether it be leadership, whether it be, you know, ego, whether it be about succession planning, all of that.

[David Brannan]

Yeah. So I study social identity theory and I work on. I. I work on social identity theory for practitioners so that they can

[Podcast Host]

do

[David Brannan]

analysis quickly and effectively. And a lot of that is based on. Based on bias. Ingroup bias. So. So, and I usually in class, I will pit firefighters against cops, or I will pit Marines against, you know, everyone. And I do that so that I can identify the in group narrative which is based on a bias. And at the, at the point that you decide as I want to be a leader, you are also deciding you need to be a critical thinker. And critical thinkers are identifying bias in an argument, and then they're not working to shove that down their throat, or they're not working to defeat that, or they're not working to figure out what the. The answer is to the question while the person's thinking or talking. They are working to deconstruct their own situation and figure out how that has some utility and how they can use that going forward. You got to be a critical thinker. You got to recognize your own bias. You got to challenge your own bias. When bias comes up at the kitchen table in the firehouse, and it. And it ostracizes or sends people down the wrong road, a dangerous road. And it does happen. I. Maybe it doesn't happen with firefighters at the kitchen table, but it happens with. It happens with coppers everywhere. Oh, yeah, and it happens everywhere because in group narratives are unbelievably strong. We have to have some guts and challenge those. And there can be negative fallout from that.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, 100. 1 million percent. 100. Yes.

[David Brannan]

Yeah. And that is analytical honesty. And that just takes some guts. You gotta have some guts, and. And you may end up having to pay for it a little bit.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, I'm gonna stay there for a minute because I've found myself in places where I won't go down the story specifically, but I found myself in places that. What you just described. So the question I have here is some people, I believe, won't challenge the bias because they would rather sit in comfort, and the comfort being no conflict. Yes, absolutely. But I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong and maybe expand on this a little bit, I believe leaders must find themselves in those spaces where. Where they're challenging bias publicly. Respectfully, of course, you know, at times. But that needs to be done, because otherwise things go unchecked and these narratives get publicized, we'll say, and incorrect information gets put out there. But all because. Not that people agree with the narrative, but because they're unwilling to challenge those biases. Talk about why, you know, in groups are so powerful. Right, wrong, or indifferent.

[David Brannan]

I'm working on these things even as we. Even as we talk in the past, I have not always handled these things well. I'm too willing to challenge publicly. And it's not always, always necessary to obliterate. To challenge. Yeah, I am. I have learned from a colleague I'm working with right now that asking questions in the kind of the Socratic method, but asking questions about what this assertion of that bias means can get other people to think about it without it Becoming such a conflict. And it can allow the person that is putting that forward to consider their own position and to recognize that they don't have the support of everyone. You know, And I, I'm working on that. Quietly asking questions rather than always being willing to challenge. Yeah, A negative assertion. I, I do like. I do like the fight.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, you do like the fight.

[David Brannan]

I do like. And I do like the conflict. I'm not afraid of that. But we, we really shouldn't be seeking that out.

[Podcast Host]

Right, right.

[David Brannan]

When it, when it comes, you have to be willing and you have to know how you're going to handle conflict, because you will. If you're going to be a leader at any level, you are going to have conflict. That's going to be part of it. Yeah, but I'm, I am really working on that. And one of the things I'm finding is that people need to drink more coffee. And I know that sounds stupid, but drinking coffee with somebody and taking some time with them and listening to what is behind this negative narrative or this apparent bias allows you to get to the root of something. That it isn't always what it first. First appears. It allows you to, to do that with a little less conflict.

[Podcast Host]

I agree. 100. 100. Before we go to the leadership challenge, you talked a lot about books. You said people should be cutting off their TV and start reading books. So I have to ask, give us three books that you believe listeners should pick up if they were to cut off their cable today. What are three must reads?

[David Brannan]

Boy, I have to limit it to three.

[Podcast Host]

Three to five. How about that? If you have five, give us five. I'll take them.

[David Brannan]

Okay. You know who Marcus Aurelius is?

[Podcast Host]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[David Brannan]

Okay. We all should. You should. You should have a copy of Meditations.

[Podcast Host]

Meditations.

[David Brannan]

Because this guy, this guy was, he was critically examining his very. I mean, these are. The book. Meditations is not something you wrote for somebody else. This is. This was built to himself about his own mistakes and his own understanding and that we ought to be doing that as well. So Marcos Aurelius's Meditations is absolutely great. A book that impacted my understanding of how the world works is something called the Social Construction of Reality by Berger and Luckman. It's an old book. It's probably 60 years old. And. It's tough going. And it's worth every second that you spend so that you understand how in groups use their bias to form an in group narrative to say what this out group is doing is not illegitimate or wrong or that that is a. That's been one of the biggest impacts on my life. Call Sign Chaos is a fun book to read that Mattis wrote. It's definitely worth your time, and I got a lot from him that might just be my own. Screw Rui deal. A really light book. You can read it in an afternoon. That we ought to all be doing is Jocko Willink's book on extreme ownership. I. I absolutely think that we ought to reduce our understanding for our people to something they can remember. Agreed. And. And for me, I want people's actions to be straightforward, accurate, and then I want people to take ownership of their actions. 100 and not to. Not to burn them if it's something goes wrong, but to take ownership so we can deal with it. And he really nails that in that book. Yep. I. Yeah, I'll send you a. I'll send you. It's perfect.

[Podcast Host]

No, this is perfect. I like to make it public just so everyone can hear what resonates with our speakers the most. Because at the end of the day, this podcast is literally about the message. It's also about inspiration, but it's also about taking away things literally after the show ends. So my hope is that some of these books are purchased. I hope to an extent. Maybe not to the extent of cutting cable off, but maybe to the extent, but maybe it's a little less tv, a little more reading, and if that's what we're doing to what I always say, spread the leadership conversation on this show. I think we're doing good.

[David Brannan]

I. I'm a little euphemistic there. Okay. Kill your TV is just. I'm not a big TV person, so it doesn't bother me, but it's. We got to read good books, not just.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[David Brannan]

Trash. Right. We got to read things that have been effective for other leaders.

[Podcast Host]

I agree.

[David Brannan]

I agree.

[Podcast Host]

I always say be intentional.

[David Brannan]

Yeah. Oh, yes.

[Podcast Host]

In any. In any aspect. And in this case, the books that you read, the time that you spend, no one wants to spend, you know, a week or two or a month reading a book to say, you know what? That wasn't very valuable. I'd rather spend my month reading a book and saying, I'm so glad I read that book. Okay, I got two questions left before I let you go. If you could give one piece of advice, I'm going to limit you to one for young leaders in the fire service to start doing today. One piece of advice. What would it be?

[David Brannan]

Well, I tell all my students this, so I would probably lead with you. Train for the Known and then you educate for the unknown. And leadership is all about the unknown. You cannot train for the leadership requirements that are going to be coming. Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Train for the known, educate for the unknown. Leadership is full of the unknowns that no amount of training will fix. So with that because. And the reason I say this is leadership development, I'm just going to say it, I've said it on the show before. Is lacking. Meaning we train in industry a lot for all the hard skills of the job. But how often are we actually teaching, educating on leadership before individuals take a leadership role? I'll be 100% honest. When I became a frontline officer, when I first got promoted to lieutenant, everything was tactics, everything was ems, everything was making sure how to train operations. Yes. And then it was like. And I got to lead people, got to lead a crew, I got inspired and I'm like, wait, hold on, I didn't, I didn't get any of that training. So with that being said, how do we educate for the unknown and then understanding that leadership is full of the unknowns.

[David Brannan]

Okay, so this may sound self serving, but, but the center for Homeland Defense and Security was started by people who recognize that cops who are really good at tactics don't necessarily understand the kind of amorphous and ambiguous nature of modern leadership environments that, that change unbelievably quickly and have a philosophical bent to them. And it's not just about management. So here that's. All of our programs are focused on educating for this unknown rather than training these specific operational skills which, which you were given, which you need, you absolutely need those when you make lieutenant, but you also, you need this more esoteric being challenged by equals to force you to understand why you want to approach a problem set in a certain way. Smart people surround yourself with smart people who are self continuing their education themselves. Like, don't give up. They continue to read, they continue to push themselves. Surround yourself with those people. And that is a form of education that being willing to be challenged by a group of your peers who are also. They know that. They know the score, right? Yeah. But also formal education is not a bad thing. I, I came to it late in life, but made me think. And that's what it ought to do. It ought to. Are you critical of yourself? Are you a critical thinker? Do you know how to attack a problem? To. Are you writing about your, your vision and are you honing that down so that other people can apprehend that? That's what I would say.

[Podcast Host]

I love that. Thank you so Much for helping elaborate. And perhaps the, you know, of the, of the things you just said, Obviously there's like 20 things I could have taken away. But I wrote be critical. You got to be critical of yourself. And then perhaps most favorite part I liked was be willing to be challenged.

[David Brannan]

I don't want to be challenged.

[Podcast Host]

I know, I know. And that. But, but, but that's what pushes us again, going back to the uncomfortable. You know, being uncomfortable is it's easy to not be challenged. It's easy to be in a silo. It's easy to be at a table where everyone agrees with you, and that's comfortable, but that's not growth. The growth is when you're willing to be challenged. So I love how you said be willing to be challenged. Well before I let you go, because Deputy Fire Chief Jim Whitney out of Redmond Fire, who's actually a great friend and mentor of mine. I've sat in a lot of classes with him. He was a guest speaker at the Secession Project, Believe it or not. He was a guest on this show. And on the show, he challenged you because the gate guests come from our guests. And I've had the pleasure to spend the Last hour and 20 minutes with you here today. So is there someone out there that you'd like to be our next guest here on the kitchen table?

[David Brannan]

Can I give you 10 people?

[Podcast Host]

You can give me 10.

[David Brannan]

Let me. Let me tell you that Rich Bladis.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[David Brannan]

Who's also a CHDS graduate.

[Podcast Host]

All right.

[David Brannan]

He was the assistant chief. He's now retired. He was assistant chief at fdny. He is a leader. He is. He is somebody I would follow. He is a critical thinker. He is a pain in the neck at some point. He's a hell of a barbecuer. That's somebody you should reach out to. And I will facilitate his email or phone or whatever you need. Perfect. So, yeah, Rich Blattis would be a great guy on here.

[Podcast Host]

Rich Blattis. Perfect. I will reach out to the assistant chief, Richard Blattis of the FDNY and tell him he was leadership challenged by David Brannan today. So I want to say thank you so much for giving up your time today. Before I do let you go, I say, what are your lasting leadership thoughts you want people to walk away with after today?

[David Brannan]

If you have it figured out, you probably don't have it figured out. If you are not still struggling, you're probably not in the fight anymore. Be willing to challenge yourself so that you are leading your people in the most effective way. Because they deserve your very best. And that means you have to show up, say yes, take action that's uncomfortable, and be challenged.

[Podcast Host]

I love it. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in Today to the 99th episode of the Kitchen Table. We hope that you found this time valuable, and. And we hope we've inspired you to take action, to lead, and to spread the leadership conversation. Till next time, be safe, be intentional, stay curious.