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Leading Organizations That Matter
43. Bad News Early is Good News: An Interview with Project Management Expert, Lisa DiTullio
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- [00:00]
Ray Spadoni
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Lisa DiTullio
Welcome to Leading Organizations that Matter, a podcast about leadership, organizational culture and how we find meaning and purpose in our work. I'm your host, Ray Spadoni, former healthcare CEO, current consultant, author, teacher and speaker. Today's topic is Bad News, early is Good News. An interview with project management expert Lisa DiTullio I've known Lisa for a long time, first as colleagues together at Harvard Pilgrim Healthcare, a large New England based HMO that resulted from the coming together of Harvard Community Health Plan and Pilgrim Healthcare. Both had been successful companies, with Harvard Community being a managed care pioneer and Pilgrim growing rapidly and successfully. On paper, it was a marriage made in heaven. In real life though, things went sideways. It's not an exaggeration at all to say that it was a total and complete collapse and ultimately ended up being a pivotal experience for both Lisa and I as we were both there for the fall and then rise of that organization. The company had gone into receivership with its governance essentially being taken over by the Massachusetts Attorney General. I won't go into the details here, but let's just say it was death defying A true example of how you bring an organization back from the brink. And Lisa was right there in the thick of it. She's the principal of Project Chalk Talk, a company that's dedicated to introducing project management as a business competency and enabling healthcare organizations to improve decision making, instill accountability, and enhance communications. She's had over 25 years of experience in establishing project management offices or a PMO and portfolio management models. Her experience spans healthcare delivery, payer pharma, biotech, diagnostic and medical device arenas. She's the author of several books, is a Certified Project Management Training instructor, and is a regular contributor to industry publications and various podcasts. She's the past Vice President of Portfolio and Program Management of Foundation Medicine and Director of the PMO at Harvard Pilgrim Healthcare. As I mentioned, where she was a core member of the turnaround team for that organization as it went from being placed in state supervised receivership in 1999 to becoming the number one health plan in America in US news and world Report for many years in a row. Let's get to it.
- [03:12]
Ray Spadoni
Thank you for joining me today, Lisa. I've known you for a long, long time, including when we worked together at a large hmo, Harvard Pilgrim, that went through a major transformation while we were there. That turnaround project, which was being chronicled nearly every day in the Boston Globe newspaper, local newspaper that had many, many moving parts, but central to all those parts, I believe, was an investment that that company made in a very formal project management infrastructure. And you were right there in the thick of all that, leading a great deal of the change during a pretty intense time. So it'll be great to talk with you today about project management again. Thank you for being here, Lisa.
- [04:00]
Lisa DiTullio
Well, thank you, Ray. It's really a pleasure to be here. And it was a big story way back when and it still maintains a very, very prominent position in my career and how I've learned a whole lot of things throughout that journey as well.
- [04:15]
Ray Spadoni
I'm sure I could make a similar statement myself. It was impactful to the sorts of things that I ended up doing in the subsequent decades of my career. So, yeah, I think we have that in common for sure. On this podcast we've been talking about issues such as what's happening with Medicare Advantage and the behavioral health crisis taking place in this country. And so we tend towards pretty vast and wide topics. Today we're going to bring it closer to home. But because this is a podcast about leading organizations that matter, I'll start with why should leaders of organizations that matter care about project management in the first place?
- [05:02]
Lisa DiTullio
Project management is, I think, a little bit misunderstood. And what I mean by that is project management and the frameworks that have been introduced predominantly through Project Management Institute, as we know as an international organization based in Philadelphia, Massachusetts. In Philadelphia, US Is really focusing on the frameworks and the processes associated with the tactical delivery of change. Change is the key word here because projects drive change, they create new things. And for organizations who know how to link the priorities. And what I mean by that is the linkage between strategic advantages to making it real. And so for project management, we still, in today's world, even though we have collectively every industry across every world and planet out there, we drive change. We still think of project management as process driven opportunity. I think it's time for us to really reconsider that it is about driving change and creating value. And oftentimes and too often we miss the opportunity in organizations to really understand that, sure, those processes are really important, but the ultimate outcome is driving change and gaining value. And that's what we need to start really thinking about in a more holistic way in order for organizations to leverage the opportunity of project management.
- [06:43]
Ray Spadoni
Great. So if I'm a leader of an organization and I'm in the midst of or I'm contemplating significant change, how do I assess my own organization's capabilities when it comes to project management, planning, execution and making a vision come to life and reality?
- [07:06]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, well, the first thing I think is the beginning stages is to ensure, if I'm the leader of an organization, the onus on me as well as my leadership team and frankly, the rest of the organization just have clarity and understanding around that connection between what is our strategic vision, what is most important to us, to our customers, to what their needs are, to the changes that are going on in our industry and the demands that are placed upon us. What are our priorities, and being very explicit in appreciation and making the right decisions of what those priorities are first and foremost. That's the beginning stage. And I actually believe it's still the biggest challenge for most organizations. They think everything's a project and they tell everyone to go manage a project, and the next thing you know, we don't have the resources and we've diluted the value of the connection between strategy prioritization and then tactical delivery.
- [08:07]
Ray Spadoni
Okay. So based on the feedback I'm receiving so far, many of the people, most of the people who listen to this podcast tend to be strategic, more, you know, big picture in their perspective in terms of their experiences, their personality, their outlook. As you know, and I think as your career has demonstrated, the details do matter. And so do you have any advice for someone who might be more of a big picture thinker? As they're saying, boy, I want to make sure that my organization is best in class when it comes to execution, when it comes to delivering on the projects.
- [08:52]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, I think that the adhesiveness between the leadership and those in the execution mode, which, by the way, I feel is everyone in the organization has some obligation or responsibility to the execution of these change events that we're talking about that are strategically important. Whether it is the project managers per se, that are delivering the change by delivering these projects, quote, unquote, successfully and or the recipients of the projects that are being delivered, there's an opportunity and a need for there to be an equal balance on that, on that beam, if you will, of delivering it well, receiving it successfully, and then producing the results and receiving those results. If I'm the leader in an organization, I need to make sure that there is transparency in this organization around the decisions that we make in articulating and identifying what's most important for us to deliver, for our constituencies, for our customers, to keep up with change, to respond to regulatory requirements. There's so many things that push us into that change mode. That leader of that organization needs to be clear and be able to articulate clearly what our priorities are. And once that happens, that leader and that leadership team needs to have enough information and understanding of what project management is just to be dangerous. And what I mean by that is to not just appreciate and understand that it is tactical delivery of these needs and these opportunities, but that they also understand that it's more than that. It is about cohesiveness around team involvement. It's about creating transparency around when things are going well and most importantly, when things aren't going well. It's giving project managers an opportunity with their teams to solidify, to determine how they're going to deliver it and to maintain a tight connection between leadership and that project manager team so that there is unification to ensure that what is needed to deliver it successfully is there and available to everyone. Oftentimes, and the reason why I describe this is so important is oftentimes we see leaders and organizations assign project work to teams and kind of walk away from it. And the only time that they get back in the dance is when something goes wrong and they're needed to help bring it back to the right direction or get it across the finish line. And that just doesn't work in today's fast moving world.
- [11:40]
Ray Spadoni
Yeah, I've seen that for sure, right up close. And I am glad, Lisa, that you brought up the concept of transparency. That's something that I spend a lot of time thinking about, talking about, certainly on this podcast. But I tend to do it relative to culture building and the impact that has on the creation of trust and the sort of the currency of trust for organizations that are going through significant change. If again, I'm that big picture leader and I'm thinking about project management based on how you just described the value of project management, I may wonder if this is a communication style and this is a commitment to a principle, or is it the creation of infrastructure? I mean, is this something that I can just do as a leader and flick the switch and say, yes, I am committed to transparency and I'm going to be very much more sort of goal focused and I'm not going to walk away until things go sideways and then come back as the adult in the room to try to fix things. Or do I need to invest and build something in my organization to make all this real?
- [12:55]
Lisa DiTullio
Well, it's a great question, Ray, and I think that for every organization really needs to understand, based on, to your point, their culture, their identity, who they are, who that leader is, what culture has been established through that leadership presence, what's right for them. But what I believe is that the leader of any organization needs to lead through demonstration. So if there's words spoken by a leader that transparency is important, but the leadership is not transparent to the organization. We have a misconnection right out of the gate, which is do what I say, not as I do. And that really creates confusion for everyone. So first and foremost, if the leader of an organization is going to really command transparency, they need to be transparent as well. And that's super important. And that gives everyone permission to do that. But in addition to that transparency piece, there is one mantra that I believe holds true and is always successful, but not always easy to deliver, which is this bad news early is good news. We don't punish project managers and project teams if for whatever reason that project delays, gets stuck, goes over budget, all the things that could potentially happen. What we want to do is we want to support project managers and their team members with praise for being confident and comfortable enough to be able to put it out there. Because the sooner and the faster it's out there, the faster we can replicate, we can modify what direction we're going in, we can right the wrong, and we can get things back on track. So there is an alignment there that needs to occur across this organization at the cultural level that will fuel the opportunities of higher success at the project level.
- [14:57]
Ray Spadoni
That's great. I mean, the old adage of actions speaking louder than words seems to hold for sure. But I love the bad news early is good news because it's not necessarily an intuitive with what that means and why that's important. But your description, you know, makes it clear, you know, some of this, much of this has to do with the culture and the fact that if there is an openness to hearing the bad news early on, then you can deal with it. You know, when the bad news is allowed to fester and whatever it is that's creating that bad news isn't resolved. Boy, do you pay for that down the line?
- [15:38]
Lisa DiTullio
Absolutely. There's no question about it. And that transparency, in order for it to occur across the organization. There's another component of where I think opportunities are somewhat stymied in many organizations. When we talk about the success of project delivery, we often focus specifically and wholly on the project manager as driving the project towards the finish line. But we also recognize that it's never through a party of one. There has to be a team involved in that subject matter, expertise across various elements of an organization, because our projects in today's world are pretty darn complex. Let's face it. Here's the thing that I think also weighs down lots of organizations. Project managers let's just put the assumption out there that project managers that have been hired are in the organization and have been assigned to these really complex project opportunities know what to do from a project management perspective. But the stunning thing about it for me is that when they go out and they collect and identify the project team members that are the most appropriate subject matter experts to come in and drive these projects, many of your project team members across organizations don't really have a good sound orientation to project management. So they can get in quickly, roll up their sleeves and get going. And that is even to the simplicity of the language we use the terms, we use the acronyms, we kick around things that people just don't have alignment on. So when I say we're going to miss this deliverable, let me just tell you that everyone on that team has a different definition of deliverable. And when you're putting that out to an audience of leaders, they're going to have different levels of definition on these terms. And so there's a missed opportunity. I believe in almost any organization, if they haven't already done this, which is many in my experience, get everyone foundationally on the same page of the language you use, of the terms that reflect the definitions and the practices that go along with it. So when you do create this transparency, and particularly on the bad news early elements, and you start using some of these words, you don't have time to define them, you just want to address them.
- [18:06]
Ray Spadoni
Well, you know, consistency of perspective when it comes to the deliverables is obviously important. I even think sometimes the broader definitions of success for a department or a division or even an entire company can vary. And I sometimes talk about the fact that when I'm engaged with an organization that going through change or contemplating some type of major transformational change, I find it useful to just poll people individually on what they believe the major definitions of success are for a company. And it's not that uncommon that you find out that there are a bunch of people sitting in a boat with oars that are not all rowing together in the same direction. And that's usually something worth pointing out early on. To that end, as you work with organizations going through change, and you've worked with lots of them. Let's talk a little bit about the diagnostic phase of that work. Are there telltale positive and negative characteristics that you encounter when you are assessing an organization or beginning to work with that organization?
- [19:20]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, there are. Again, it goes back to the first level for me, is to understand. So if you have this list of projects how did this list come about? How did you identify these were the necessary elements to go after that you're going to invest in? What's the prioritization of those? And that is an interesting conversation that I have. And it varies obviously on level of maturity around portfolio management, if you will. Right. The formal practice of how did you make these decisions and how did you determine that this set of projects are the most important and what happens to the ones that were below that waterline? What are we doing with them, how are we managing them, how are we monitoring them? Or they just been put away forever? And organizations are really, really challenged with this because what I believe could be a simplistic lens of really what's the opportunity and what's the return? What's the value opportunity both for us as an organization and obviously for our customers and our constituenc? Is this a must do or is this something that we want to do to be completely innovative versus others in our industry, et cetera? There's various ways of simplistic decision making on that. What happens unfortunately is there's a lot of emotion that gets involved in that and there's a lot of individual bias on what happens in the decision making process. So in the decision making process for your leadership team, oftentimes they go into a secret room. They make these decisions. There's arm wrestling on the table because leaders want different priorities for different reasons. If you have a project management office, if you will, or anyone that is in charge or responsible for driving the tactical delivery, bring them on board during those conversations because if they are the right leader in that role, they will help that leadership group and making those decisions to make decisions based on similar criteria across the board so that there is no influence by individuals as far as what ends up on that list or not. And that's super, super important. Once that list is created, it gets put out there. So my next question then is how many people know what's important in the organization and why this is important and when we're going to deliver. And then the next tier is for me to understand and appreciate through project teams, when they've been assigned a project, why are we doing this project? What is the value opportunity associated with it? And too often than not, those project teams are still stuck so low in the tactics that they believe that their traditional definition of project success still exists, which is successful project delivery is when we deliver the thing on time and within budget. I say yes, that's not the success metric any longer, that's just expected of Us, when we're assigned a project, deliver it on time, get it delivered by the definition of how we've designed it. And let's make sure we don't go over budget. The true value is what are we going to get out of this thing after it goes live? Because success on a project doesn't really demonstrate itself until well after it goes live. And project teams don't always know that story. Why are we doing it, what are we doing it doing, how are we going to get it done? And what will it produce when it goes live? And the reason that's a critical opportunity for every project team everywhere is when you're assigned to a project that's super complex and really challenging and long duration, it can get exhausting. But when we tell that story to folks, what we're doing is we're connecting those people on that team both rationally and emotionally. Rationally we know why we're doing it. And emotionally we're excited about what this project delivery will produce. And that keeps everyone in the game. And I look literally at those three areas to understand how are you doing as an organization? I've pushed aside all formality in typical checklists that other organizations or professional associations will tell me or suggest that we do. I just want to have conversations and I want to know how are you making your decisions? How are the teams that are assigned these projects? How much do they recognize not just the what we're doing, but why are we doing it and what will it give us? Moments done and how are we speaking the same language and interpreting the same words so that when we are being transparent and particularly when we are raising the flag and need something, we can all get to it quickly and adjust it and modify it fast, get it back on tracks. Because we're all aligned in the same planet of what's going on with this thing called project management?
- [24:30]
Ray Spadoni
Well, you know, embedded in that. Lisa, you mentioned the sort of this notion of the sustainability of the project, there can be project fatigue, especially for some of the bigger ones. And so mindful of that and also recognizing that some of the organizations that matter, people who listen to this podcast, some are in large multi billion dollar systems, some are in couple of million dollar, much smaller organizations. So there's a wide gamut of resources and so forth. When you think about project management for the organizations that you support, do you tend to think of it more as situational and that leaders need to think about when they're contemplating a larger project change agenda, you know, new computer system, expanding their geography, something like that or a turnaround as happened at Harvard Pilgrim? Or do you see this more as core functionality that an organization needs to have built in at all times, ready to engage as needed?
- [25:36]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, I believe that regardless of the organizational size, that it should be baked in and just simply be a core competency across the organization. And the reason for that is, even if we go through a process and we articulate and we communicate from a leadership perspective, here's the most important projects or programs we will invest in for this year or for the next couple of years. There are always opportunities to drive change everywhere in an organization. And so functional areas may decide that they want to change something for the purpose of the value and the benefit of this particular functional area. It takes human resources to do that. And so if we go through the reality that articulation of that large priority bucket of things is the most important, not only does that send the message across the organization, regardless of where they come from in the organization, regardless of size of the organization, these are our most important initiatives that we will focus and invest in. Once we articulate and we prioritize resources to be assigned to that list, we then have a limited level of resources to do anything else. And in order for us to be able to continue at a core competency of, I want this other department to do a smaller initiative. It's not a big deal, but it's important to us. The only way that they're going to identify the right people to be able to perform that small project delivery is to first be able to understand who's being assigned to the big stuff first, and then be able to triage and trickle it down accordingly according to skill set and competencies and ability to do exactly that. Now, you can, I'm sure, not be surprised that I am admittedly biased. I think everyone should have some level of understanding and appreciation of project management practices. Because even the best project program managers in today's world, here today, gone tomorrow for so many different reasons. And we need to be able to have a backup plan so we can quickly get the next best thing in there to drive this in the event that that happens. And yet oftentimes organizations, even smaller ones, they'll bring in a small, it might be a smaller bunch of project managers. Once they have them hired, they think everyone's great, the organization's doing fine, we've just filled all our slots. Fact of the matter is everyone needs to know enough about it to be dangerous and be able to drop in in the event that we need them.
- [28:25]
Ray Spadoni
So for some of those smaller organizations, many of whom are confronting financial challenges. And they, and they work hard every month just to, you know, keep things balanced and moving forward. This notion of building in project management as a core competency, what advice do you have for those kinds of organizations that may embrace the concept but may fret the dollars?
- [28:52]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, it's a challenge for the, I would say it's a challenge for every organization, but particularly for your smaller organizations. Oftentimes smaller organizations don't need formal PMOs and they don't need that big heavy investment right out of the gate. But they need at least one individual in the organization that has experience and has a track record in this who wants to come in. And they may end up being the player that is the multiplayer. And what I mean by that is they're coming in to be assigned to some very important projects to deliver them and drive them forward. But they also have a background and a passion for project management as a profession or as a practice where they can help others to start to collectively learn about it from an in house perspective. It could be as simple as doing rotation programs that I've seen in organizations where they're short on budget, but they have projects and they don't have enough people or to articulate their skill set to delivery of those projects. Offer a rotation program, have them follow someone who is a project manager for a while. Next thing you know, they are then immersed into that world and become more opportunity opportunistic to the project and to the organization at large. In other words, there's a lot of creative things that we can do to instill a project management environment and even the smallest of companies without large investment. And the great news also today in today's world is there is a plethora of opportunities out there where individuals can get very basic training and learning and opportunity around the basics of project management. Whether it is our good old fashioned waterfall approach or agile approach, it doesn't matter. But there's a lot of free opportunities out there where people can start to gain this experience by listening to podcasts or listening to tutorials that will give them the opportunity to do so. And I think that we sometimes over complicate how we get there. I think that if we do it in small grassroots opportunity in small organizations that they too can create this environment with some pretty simplistic non expensive steps along the way in order to get there.
- [31:18]
Ray Spadoni
Right. And just for those of us who may not be certain what you're referring to, can you just give a quick high level primer on the waterfall approach and the Agile approach.
- [31:30]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah. The waterfall approach is the first formal official project management methodology that was created many decades back, which was predominantly created for a project that was fairly stable in definition, or what we call scope. So we knew what we were going to build, we didn't anticipate lots of changes to that initial design or what we were going to build. So we looked at the entire project, we planned the entire project out, and then once that plan is in place, we roll up our sleeves and we deliver it. That's the simplest way for me to describe waterfall. And then all of a sudden this new process and methodology came into play, which is Agile. Now, what's interesting about Agile, and don't get me on the platform about which is better, agile or waterfall, they're both great. It just depends on what situation you're going after. Agile was originally designed for one thing only, software development. That's how it originated. How do we create software faster? Because it was taking us an average of a few years to create new software. And in the tech space, we knew that that was not, we weren't going to be able to win at that game. So when the Agile Manifesto was made, which was kind of the practice and the process of Agile practices, it was predominantly created to develop new software development. It was so cool compared to Waterfall that a lot of organizations took on the Agile approach because it was fast, it was nimble, it was fluid, it was sexy, if you will, compared to waterfall. Then everyone started to swing the pendulum all the way over to Agile for everything. Well, that doesn't work for everything now. We have, I think, enough information and experience, experience in both of those worlds. But at the end of the day, when I continue to see and hear the debate of which is better or more valuable or more successful or effective, I say it doesn't really matter because everyone is arguing what's better. It's not a competition. My, my response to it is put your guns down and simply adopt the processes that work for you and meet the needs of your project. One might be waterfall, one might be agile, and others are going to be hybrid. So yes, there's distinct differences. They have been a little bit cloudy along the way, but the reality is, is that most organizations, whether they know it or not, in today's world, they use a little bit of both and they need to, because very few of our projects can be delivered without technology in today's world.
- [34:18]
Ray Spadoni
Great. Thank you for the description. And for the record, putting your guns down is usually a pretty good way to Resolve conflicts.
- [34:27]
Lisa DiTullio
It's a good place to start.
- [34:28]
Ray Spadoni
I'd rather, you know. Well, you know, the world has changed a lot since you and I worked together at Harvard Pilgrim. You know, we, we don't have flying cars yet, but we do have very active and efficient effective video conferencing. And you know, among the various things that happened to us because of the pandemic, one of them was we built up the infrastructure in this country to support very active remote work and hybrid situations and so forth. And we've adapted to it pretty well and now many prefer it. There's a debate going on. It's a cultural conversation about the pros and cons. People desire it, but you lose a little something in terms of culture building, human interaction and so forth. That's probably a topic for another day. But relative to project teams working together, how can they deliver in this new world in which we're all working?
- [35:35]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, it is a new world and it's the ways of working when we have virtual hybrid face to face that all these scenarios in play across different organizations for different reasons. And I don't know what's right and what's wrong. I think it's whatever is right for that organization. I believe that it is super important for project managers or project leaders who are responsible for driving these projects strongly set a very solid and effective foundation at the team level before they get started. So not just about, here's what we're going to do, here's our project assignment, let's plan it out and let's start delivering it. How are we going to work as a team? How are we going to interact? And the interesting thing about it, and I'm not sure, but I've thought a lot about this recently because I more frequently see more and more organizations really wanting people to come back in the office with the, with the philosophy of we do better when we're together and we won't go down that debate road. But what's fascinating about it is when you think about when Covid hit and where we are today. We have a slew of individuals who joined the profession, their work, their jobs for the first time ever during COVID They've never experienced the in person, face to face work environment. And I wonder how many organizations are taking that into consideration when they swing the pendulum from the COVID which was completely virtual, to our kind of hybrid space today. Have we actually considered and thought about the group of individuals, the cohort out there, that have never really experienced what it's like to be in person.
- [37:32]
Ray Spadoni
Oh yeah, right.
- [37:35]
Lisa DiTullio
And so I think that most organizations in my experience and connecting in my partnerships with organizations out there is they're more focused on bringing people back in, but they're missing a constituency because they just assume everyone remembers what that's like. And we have an aging population in general. We also uniquely, if you. There's a stat that's been out there for a while now. The Project Management Institute estimates that by the year 2025. Oh, sorry, 2030, 25 million new project management professionals will be need needed because of the rate of change. When you think about that and you also think about the World Economic Forum tells us by that same year period that over 1 billion people are going to need to be upskilled because we're just constantly changing and it's not going to slow down at any time at all. We need to take a step back and really understand our entire staff pool and understand and recognize a lot has gone on in the last five years that has changed everything for us and to make sure that everyone is seen and addressed to bring them in. So those teams, as universal as they are, have equal opportunity to produce their best.
- [38:57]
Ray Spadoni
Yep, that makes good sense. And it's, it is fascinating that there are workers coming into our organizations who haven't been in the workplace. That is, that poses some very interesting questions and I think challenges, you know, we'll adapt because as a species that's what we do. But you know, for those of us who remember the great value of in person collaboration, interactivity, you know, I guess the question is can we, can we replicate that pretty well without actually being in person? Time will tell. You know, going back again to, you know, the back in the day, you know, aspect of this, I recall a time when professional project management was new and, and unique and people were discovering what that meant. I don't think we have that situation anymore. Clearly we have a profession of people who are helping us to go through these major change objectives and you know, all the complexities that people are confronting as they go about their work as a profession. Let's talk a little bit about where it is and where do you see that going?
- [40:24]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, it's a great question, Ray. The profession, if we look at it just from the industry stats and when I say that, I look through the filter, Project Management Institute, the number of individuals who are going through formal training and then sitting for certification to receive the evidence that they know what to do as a project manager, those numbers continue to go up. I think that's great. However, I will tell You. Over my many decades of being in the project portfolio space, I can tell you that I have had the opportunity and the privilege of hiring and working with a whole lot of really great project managers who don't have that formal background. And I think that. So it's not so much the credential in my view. And I know that this might not work for a lot of people when they hear me say that. And by the way, I'm a trainer for the Project Management Institute and have been for 15 years, so they seem to be okay with it. But the reality is, is that when you're. When I look at, I realize someone has been certified and it's taken the time to go through that training and to be. And go through that ex. I'm not taking that away from them. But I also believe that there are strong project program managers out there that have the right stuff without that certification or that paper. And how you interview and screen and really get to know those individuals is critically important. It's not just about what's on their resume, as it isn't for any candidate that we're looking at. But I think we miss an opportunity when we. When we diminish the fact that people are doing project work everywhere in today's world and that we need to make sure that we're giving everyone an opportunity to advance from within, if we have the ability to do so. Create an opportunity to support from within because we want to, for so many different reasons, engage and keep and retain the people that we have, particularly our good staff. People are typically driven to project management because they like the challenge and they like the opportunity that every project is different. And that is exactly how I ended up here, which is, don't give me the same thing to do all the time because I'll get bored really quick and it won't be fun. But every time you are given a project assignment, it is a new opportunity. Even if you're building something similar to what you built before for so many different reasons. These people who go into this profession, I think not only have the opportunity, certification or not, to deliver what is needed to drive change in your organization. These are also opportunities for those people that, as they progress during their career, find themselves in very high leadership opportunities because status quo doesn't work for them. They want to go after something new. They want to go after different. And they are not afraid to put their toe in the areas that nowhere else has anyone gone in order to differentiate the organization from their competition and the competitors. So there's so many different reasons. And as I started there and I'll finish the statement, I am admittedly biased. It has been a wonderful profession for me. But it is not just Ben about the project management aspect, it's what you can do with it going forward that makes a difference.
- [43:57]
Ray Spadoni
Great. Well, proof positive that we do well to choose professions that play to our strengths and our interests. You know, that, you know, we. I've reflected a lot, including on this podcast, about pursuing activities as part of your career that give you meaning and purpose and what that does to your own satisfaction with your job and your career. But you know, knowing yourself is, is vitally important. And there are some folks you just mentioned who like new, you know, who like to take a set of skills and apply them to new situations. Whereas that's, that's anxiety provoking for some folks. They like to go through a cycle multiple times. We're all different. And so, you know, playing to your strengths, you know, obviously very important. Well, thank you Lisa. I want to really say thank you for being on the podcast. You know, there's a lot to this topic. I feel as though we, we ran a gamut. We sort of came across the top and got the appetizer version of many of the items that you focus on. Any one of which we could go to full on entree and spend more time on on them. But I think this is going to serve as a good overview for those who are engaged in the leadership of organizations that matter, who are more often than not probably especially lately encountering a need to change, whether it's subtle or whether it's all the way up to top shelf, transformational and having a good appreciation for what a formal project management mindset and infrastructure can do for them. I think it's pretty important. So again, very much appreciate you being here. In a second I'm going to ask you how people can get in touch with you and if they want to learn more about you and your work. But before I do that, you mentioned some resources and some organizations you're associated with, maybe even some websites for someone who's interested in learning more or maybe building up their competency for themselves or their organization. Do you have one or two you can point folks towards where they can drill down deeper on some of these issues that we've been talking about?
- [46:21]
Lisa DiTullio
Yes, sure. The Project Management Institute can find it at PMI.org is the largest organization supports project management profession, has largest membership US based but is has presence on every, every place around the globe and they are kind of the go to as far as what goes on in this space, they started predominantly with with waterfall, have adopted Agile technique in order to stay long. They also have local PMI chapters across all the states in the United States. So in the Massachusetts market where we're located, there are two chapters that are also great opportunities. You can become a member of a chapter for nothing. Not nothing, but very minimal. You don't have to be certified. Great networking opportunity, free opportunities to get learning and development and be able to talk. And a lot of people who are starting to dip their toe in this profession like that opportunity because they can connect with people that are already in it or similar to them thinking about going into it. All sorts of publications, plethora of information. A lot of it is free. I highly recommend that that's the first place for someone to stop and start to go into some exploration. And then also there's always events going on on project management and when you literally the good old Google machine is up and running for PMI and for project management as well. And I also think that oftentimes because many people are running projects of different types in every organization and you're curious, go talk to someone who's responsible for running a project in your organization. Trust me when I say the majority of us would be highly complimentary and be very thrilled to share with you what it's all about because it's a very, very opportunistic career to go after.
- [48:19]
Ray Spadoni
Great. Excellent. Well as an expert and as someone with a track record to prove it. If people want to learn more about you and the work that you do, how would you direct folks towards you?
- [48:34]
Lisa DiTullio
Yeah, in today's world, as I continue through my long span career, I'm doing a lot of training and coaching and consulting for organizations that are intrigued or interested about this topic. Project Chalk Talk is the website to look me up. The majority of my passion in today's world is to pay it forward and a lot of that is through training and coaching others in this industry and in this profession. And you can also find my smiling face on LinkedIn as well.
- [49:09]
Ray Spadoni
Fantastic as we are at this point in audio only podcasts, no one's going to get to see your smiling face though I think I'm, you know, I may end up going to YouTube for videos in the future and so maybe we can change that. But again Lisa, thank you very much for your time. This has been very useful and I really appreciate you being on the podcast.
- [49:34]
Lisa DiTullio
Thank you Ray. Great opportunity as being colleagues for many years and maintaining our professional connection over that period of time. Really grateful and appreciate the opportunity for us to chat.
- [49:45]
Ray Spadoni
Awesome. Have a great day.
- [49:47]
Lisa DiTullio
Thank you.
- [49:50]
Thanks for listening. I hope that you'll consider leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts or your platform of choice that will help others find us here. My mission is to help empower organizations that matter by supporting those who lead them. Feel free to learn more about me and my work@redsailadvisors.com.