Gina Maza (3:47)

Well, that's great. So glad you're able to be on the podcast, Gina. I mentioned up front in the, in the prerecorded part of this that we have an opportunity once in a while to work together. I always enjoy that. I think the organization that you're serving as a volunteer is quite fortunate to have you so actively engaged in their mission. But I know you are also a very mission driven, mission oriented person. That's certainly something I've learned about you through the years.

Gina Maza (4:17)

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. And that's true, I guess it's a big part of honestly who I am. And I think that is the way of business right now, as a matter of fact too, which is probably why we're talking about this topic, isn't it? People want to feel purposeful, right?

Gina Maza (4:36)

Well, you know, you could make the argument that people have always wanted to feel purposeful and to have and to seek meaning, but I think the times would suggest that maybe there are some shifts that have taken place within the workforce. And I think we're going to get into that a little bit. You mentioned that we're going to talk about servant leadership, obviously that's the title of this episode. So as we talk about the return of servant leadership, we'll get to the return part. And that's the, you know, what has shifted over time piece of it. But for folks who are listening, who may not be completely up to date on what it may even be or how it's defined, how would you describe it? What exactly is servant leadership?

Gina Maza (5:22)

I say servant leadership is a style of leading people that transforms cultures. You know, you could. There's a lot of different styles out there, right? You. We could take a whole class on it, as a matter of fact. And some styles work in some situations. But my experience has been that those that can embrace and really work on being a servant leader will create a culture that has very engaged employees and they're sustainable. Quite honestly, it is tough out there if you're in healthcare or any other business. And servant leader has standed the test of time and it's learnable and doable and it's not always easy.

Gina Maza (6:10)

What are some of the, what, what are some of the defining characteristics? And if, you know, if there's someone listening who is saying, I, I believe I'm a servant leader. Yeah, you know what, what are the attributes so that they could evaluate themselves against the criteria.

Gina Maza (6:26)

Okay, that's, that's a great question. Here's what I want to say. Servant leadership is not. Whenever I teach a class on this or talk with people about it, I think there's a perception out there that servant leaders are soft and they're always saying yes and will never say no to any employee. That is not the case. Servant leaders look at what employees need and what they want and they can determine the difference. So essentially, servant leaders remove obstacles so that people can get the job done. And you know, we, I always use this example when I talk to people about a need versus a want. It's a basic component of servant leadership. Employees want all kinds of things and they're not always in the best interest of the company or even themselves. So an employee may want a special desk that has all kinds of bells and whistles and can do all kinds of things versus they need a software program that's going to cost money but helps them get the job done. So that is a really easy way to see the difference between need and want. In reality, it's not so straightforward often, but servant leaders hold people accountable. They have very, very high standards and they're honest. And you know what? Sometimes honesty is giving hard feedback. All those characteristics are what I would say is a really great servant leader. So again, if you think about it, we say servant and people get this image that it's someone that is a yes person essentially. And that is not the case. Many servant leaders, some of the best ever, were drivers, right? They were very, very focused on the mission. They had their own values and they held others to those same standards. So that is how I would see and describe a servant leader. So what else does that look like? Well, servant leaders understand that they serve their own team. And we can talk later if you want about strengths based leadership and how you strengthen up your own team. But a servant leader understands that teams, their own circle of teams is their responsibility. Because by focusing in on their team, all of those members of, let's, let's just say it's me. And you know, I have a board of directors and some senior leadership at this organization. I'm very focused on developing those people. And I'm removing obstacles for them. And my expectation is that they will then do the very same thing for their teams. So what happens with servant leadership? Is it. It's if you would think about. It's horizontal if you think about it versus command and control is always top down and that doesn't work in the current environment and it doesn't transform cultures. So that's the way I think about and describe servant leader approach and style. What do you think about that?

Gina Maza (9:59)

Yeah, I mean I. Well you mentioned there are a lot of different leadership styles. You could teach a whole class on it. And I certainly agree with that. I've witnessed and seen many leadership styles. I'm wondering is, is it situational or is servant leadership what you just described, better and always better?

Gina Maza (10:25)

That's a great question. So situational leadership has a role when you think about serving others because sometimes people need one approach or one solution from you. If there's a crisis going on then you know, maybe you need an answer from me versus I. You need coaching and feedback. But servant leadership is a specific style in my opinion on its own because it has very specific, specific components. And there's some great books out there. You know, Robert Greenleaf wrote a book in the 70s and I love a book that I have my students read. It's Hunter's the Servant and it's a bit of a story about a leader that goes to this training. And you know there are some Christian principles within this particular book but you don't have to be a Christian. It's the idea that you follow how you meet others needs. And one of the best components of that book is love is a verb. So we're not talking about emotional love at work. Right. It's not feelings, it's about how do you treat others, other people. And servant leaders understand that patience, for example is exhibiting self control. Humility should be at the center of everything you do so that you know what you don't feel like you need to take the credit for everything even if you did the majority of the work. So I can give back the credit to the team. Honesty as I mentioned. Sure, we could be transparent. We all talk about that and all kinds of leadership classes and you know, keeping chaos by sharing, keeping chaos down by sharing. But what about being honest about how someone did on a project when they really need to do better? Those aren't easy conflict resolution. These are very challenging skills they that I think a lot of us always have to work on. They're also characteristics of servant leaders. They really know how to behave toward other people to really develop those that deliver. And I love that expression. I want to focus in on those that are doing the best for this organization and to do that I need to invest in them as individuals. So, yeah, situational leadership, yes, there's a place in it, but servant leaders, it's a style in and of it of itself that understands, you know, and I might need to adapt a little bit depending on what this particular person needs at the moment.

Gina Maza (13:14)

Well, you know, in. When I wrote my book Saving Organizations that Matter, I talk about the various factors that get organizations into trouble. Much of it has to do with leadership styles and then the, the aspects or the characteristics of organizations that pull themselves up out of trouble. And I did not use the term servant leadership, but there's a real resonance here. There's definitely a compatibility to what you're describing, and active listening is certainly one of them. You know, empathy, empowerment of employees, the sense of developing others. But there's also this other piece which is to have a demonstrable emphasis on serving and developing the people around you rather than personal gain. And again, I didn't use the term servant leadership, but in effect, that's what I was talking about in my book. So if you're a leader and you're hearing this and you are saying to yourself, well, sure, I do that. You know, I'm a servant leader, there's probably not a lot of people who are going to hear this and go, I'm not a servant leader, I do all those things. But how can a person make an honest self assessment, a critical self assessment if they want to shine in this regard, if they really want to demonstrate these different attributes and be successful?

Gina Maza (14:50)

Well, that's a hard question because it's not easy. So here I'll tell you from my own personal experience and those that I work with, I think being self aware is a really good place to start. And that of course, requires emotional intelligence. And you know what I would say, take a look around you and what's your team, how's your team performing and what's the turnover looking like? People want to come to work and do a good job and they want to work for someone that they trust, knows what they're doing and they trust that they will develop them and there's maybe some opportunities for them moving forward. Okay, this is our environment right now. So what I would say is, of course we all have some attributes of being a servant leader, but, but this takes work and understanding what it is. So that's actually where I would Start, and I do it now, like I say, I'm. I am running this nonprofit, and I ran a number of divisions in my career, and I. And I, I knew instinctively when my team, they weren't performing as well as they could have. And quite honestly, was I the problem. So I think getting some feedback from people that are above you, below you, next to you, and asking those questions, that is actually where I would start. People often will say, I want feedback, but we tend not to. Honestly, we want to have good stuff. It's hard. It takes a strong character to say, I would love your feedback, and I would like to know what it is that I can do to make this a better, best place for you to work, or how do I retain you? I love the idea of stay interviews, which we can talk about in a minute, but essentially that's where I would start. Don't assume a darn thing. I don't know about you, but I have been sadly surprised sometimes where I think things are going along just fine on my team or with this person, and then I find out that they're. They're disgruntled or there's an issue or a problem, and that's on me, not listening, not really paying attention to the people. So. So that's where I would start. And, you know, I love this concept, Ray, of being a multiplier. It is a book. I talk about it all the time. And so I would say Liz Wiseman wrote this book. It's called the multi how to get the best out of your team. And the concept in there is to be a multiplier. In other words, you can either create all kinds of talent and build people up and create a really super strong team, or you could leave it all to yourself and then you diminish everybody else. And I know personally, I have to be really careful about that because diminishers tend to be accidental, right? They're big personalities. They have something to say all the time. They maybe have interesting and good ideas. But here's the problem with that. You don't give space for anyone else. So that's not what servant leaders do. Servant leaders understand I need a plan. I can't do it all myself. And I certainly know I have weaknesses. So by developing a team as a servant leader, right. That could compensate for weaknesses all around is very important and it's not easy to do. So it's a long answer to your question because it's complicated. But I would start with feedback.

Gina Maza (18:34)

Well, you know, you mentioned that sometimes you have an employee you think everything's going along fine, and then you find out that, that, that, that things are not going along fine. Is that where the stay interview comes in? Can you describe what that is?

Gina Maza (18:47)

Oh, yes. I love a stay interview versus an exit interview. Because by the time you're doing that, it's all over, right? And if you're doing an exit interview, you know, they've been done for a while, typically. So that's not the best way to keep your superstar talents. So a stay interview is talking with your talent, the people that you want to retain. We're not doing a star and a stay interview with someone that you know is on a development plan right now, maybe in the future. So this is essentially ask sitting down with them, one on one, face to face, you know, zoom. Okay. But you got to have some eye contact and asking, you know, what is it that I can do to make this the best team for you or the best organization for you and get their feedback. But here's, here's the most important point about it. You better follow through. Because if someone says to you, oh, I really, I have this problem and I could really use this, and then you send them on their way and don't do anything, you have absolutely destroyed your relationship. And that is a component of servant leadership that your words and thoughts and your actions align. The worst thing a leader could do is promise something or say something that one isn't true or you didn't follow through on. So that's what the stay interview is. And I have practiced this. And I'll tell you what, no one has ever asked me for something that was ridiculous because I'm dealing with professionals. I'm dealing with people I've been developing or I want to develop. And, and it's so funny too, because you learn so much. I, I mean, this is really shame on me. Example, I was talking with someone on my team that I was practicing this idea, and I wasn't practicing it. I was meaning I was doing it. And she shared with me some personal information that required her to need an afternoon off every week. And honestly, I was mortified because I didn't know this was going on in this gal's life. And I should have. And so it was such an important lesson for me to. Again, servant leadership. Do I understand this individual as a person? The whole person? I don't want to know your personal business. I'm not telling you mine. But there are specific big life events or things that are going on with people that we should know as their leaders, especially if we're trying to remove obstacles. So she needed this one afternoon off. Everywhere I was like, yeah, absolutely, immediately. And I put it into effect right then and there. Okay, another person. So just to show the difference, she wanted some software. I had her working on this project, and it was probably a nightmare. And I had her doing on Excel again, if I didn't say, hey, you know, what can I do? She simply wanted to purchase this software package. I can't remember what it was. Again, immediately, yes, absolutely. So that's essentially what you're doing. And what you do in the end is you create a culture of service. Service to meet the mission, service to strengthen the team, service to the person. And that is why it's a bit different than what you might think of. More of a traditional style, and it's not easy to do. And it really requires a lot of attention and it also requires a lot of humility because you can't be the loudest voice in the room. Right? You have to give space for other people. And as I told you, this is something. I always need to work on it because I always have an opinion, you know, and I always want to say something. And I really have to work hard at zipping it and letting people talk and sometimes even maybe not coming up with the best idea. But I have in my career, let some things go where I know it's not going to hurt anybody or anything. And I'm like, you know what? Let them try it and let's see what happens. Versus don't do that. This is what I think you should do. Okay, so that's essentially how you get at doing stay interviews, ask the question and then follow up. Because servant leaders, f their word is good, you can trust that they come through. Even if they say someone asks you for something and you honestly, you don't know, you have to find out or follow up, make sure you do it. I'll give you the silliest, silliest example. So the nonprofit I run, someone said, hey, could we have this clock? Could we have it down here? Because the residents are over here. And I needed to do vitals, something like that. I was like, yeah, of course. And I can't remember how, why I was even involved in this conversation. But guess what? I go back to deal whatever this clock to get the facilities person to do it. The clock is missing. Oh, so what do I know? I'm trying to be a servant leader. I told her I would move the clock. I followed up with this person to say, I'm sorry. The Clock, et cetera, et cetera. She was like, oh, yeah, I know, we, it's okay. She knew it, it didn't matter. Right. The idea isn't about the clock. The idea was I gave her my word. And I know that if I just blew it off and never got back to her, maybe she'd think about it, but maybe she'd remember. I actually don't come through. I don't follow through.

Gina Maza (24:44)

Well, it's the essence of active listening, as you mentioned earlier on. It's, you know, blowing someone off. Not following up is the opposite. So, you know, in terms of how you learn about this, you mentioned some really good books. You know, you mentioned you could take classes, you know, you interact with students. I interact with students. That's a good way to provide an overview. But I think there's no better way than to have a mentor. And you mentioned in your own life the fact that you saw this modeled for you on a regular basis with someone who you worked with for a number of years. Do you think that you would have been as drawn to the concept had you not seen it in action? And, and, and maybe the follow up to that is, what advice do you have for someone who may be listening to this, who hasn't really seen this in action?

Gina Maza (25:39)

That's a great question. Two great questions. So for the first one, absolutely, it felt different and I knew it and I couldn't even have labeled it way back when, like, what is, what is this? And I, but I knew that I really wanted to be, stay in this place of, you know, to work there. And I wanted to be mentored by this person because I liked what the way it made me feel and I could see the impact on the entire organization. So people were so engaged and would go the extra mile because there was a servant leader at the top. And let me just tell you, it wasn't as if people didn't work really, really hard and there was all kinds of challenges. So I could see for myself the value. And there was a difference, right, Because I had worked in organizations where it was extremely autocratic and very much top down. And Ray, you know what? I remember being a really new green manager and I, I, I didn't want to go anywhere near senior managers. I just felt frightened. And that's not a good example. Right, but this was many years ago. And you, you know, I'm not a shy or quiet person. So imagine if you were, and you were someone that had brilliant ideas, but you tended to be an introvert. Right? You were never getting the best out of those folks. Conversely, many years later, I see this. So, yeah, I do think that modeling it is absolutely the way to then create it in your own culture. And that's what servant leadership is. Right. Remember, you. You focus on your. You're serving a few so that they can then serve a few, and then your whole culture transforms because that's the expectation. You're modeling it. You don't have to be perfect. So then. Okay, so what if you don't see it or you don't know it? That. Was that your second question? How do you. How do you see it if you don't? Yeah, I've never experienced it. Well, if it piques your interest, I say find out more about it. There are great books out there. Sure. But you know what? Now in this day and age, that, like, just like right here, we've got a podcast. There's all, you know, tutorials out there. You could certainly get a coach to learn about it and explore yourself. I think one of the first steps to being a very good servant leader is really working on your emotional intelligence. And you can't really be always working on being a servant leader if you don't have. You don't understand how people work. And that's essentially what emotional intelligence is, right? It's understanding how to work with people. And. And emotional intelligence is based on empathy and respecting other people. And like you've mentioned a few times, active listening comes out of that and acting in a way that aligns with your values. So if you're not sure, you know, there are plenty of little exams you could take where you could figure out, where are you with emotional intelligence? And I would do it. I would do it because focusing on yourself, self awareness, do I know what my biases are, where my strengths are, where I have opportunities? That's where you start, right? And then that allows you to be more socially aware. And you know what's so interesting about emotional intelligence? So we all, we all know you can learn that. And we all have our own levels of emotional intelligence. But that is also true of teams. Teams have their own levels of emotional intelligence. And guess where the level of emotional intelligence for a team starts? The leader of the team. So if you aren't working on your own level of emotional intelligence and you're running a team, well, guess what? The team is not going to be a magnet for talent, because no one wants to work on a team that's dysfunctional. And I'm sure you and everyone here, you've worked in organizations where there's a team over there and everyone wants to be on that team. Right. But no one wants to work over here. Why? Just like what we've been talking about, what your book speaks to so beautifully is it always comes down to transforming your culture, which requires really strong leadership and a leader that can develop other people. And that's what I, I have done it. And I have to say, you know, it's not always easy to take, take a good, hard look at yourself, but really strong leaders do it because we all have weaknesses. So if you can say, you know, I know I'm pretty, I'm pretty good over here. So to compensate for my weakness, I, I got to have someone that's better than me over here. And that's how you start developing strong teams, which becomes the basis for you to be a servant leader. That is honestly where I would start.

Gina Maza (31:06)

Great. Servant leadership is not a brand new concept.

Ray Spadoni (31:11)

Some of the books you mentioned were.

Gina Maza (31:12)

Published several decades ago. And yeah, you know, this has been something that's been taught and spoken of and then for a while not as much. And you know, we've described this as the return of servant leadership. And so what is happening in the environment? What's happening maybe through, you know, the various generations of workforce that we have. Why do you feel this is relevant again?

Gina Maza (31:41)

Well, I know that it works for sure, but, but here's why it's relevant right now. I think there's a few reasons in my opinion. Anyway, you've already mentioned the generations. This is a moment in time where every generation is in the workforce. This is very challenging for every leader out there to manage the expectations and remember the needs that we talked about, not the wants of every generation. So we have an older generation that's very much accustomed and fine, honestly, with sort of the autocratic. And you know, I'm going to sit at my desk, you know, all the way to the folks in our workforce that have just graduated and have very different expectations of organizations, of their culture and of their manager. They want and value so much this idea of work life balance and flexibility and they really are interested right. In the mission and all. So this is very challenging for the current leadership of the world today because you've got a lot of varying needs out there given the generations. And this is very much a much more global economy. Right. Than we had in the 70s. So that, that presents now all this cultural competence that you need to have and understand. You could have a business partner in a whole different country. So and employees, as a matter of fact, all over the globe. So that is very, very challenging for a lot of people and really requires a lot of effort. I think the staffing crisis, I mean, we can't not talk about that, right? No matter what industry. Certainly, you know, mine being health care, yours being healthcare. But honestly, I see it everywhere. The staffing crisis, meaning, you know, we've got challenges with retaining people, sometimes recruiting people. And I look at specifically non profits, you know, a very unique set of organizations that we're both really committed to, but not only nonprofits, but I'll speak just for a minute about that. You know, so many non profits don't make it because they lack the leaders that leadership that they need. They're so, so challenged with funding, which then creates challenges with staffing and retaining people. So that creates challenges. And the other, the other change I think since the 70s is just look, Ray, look at how flat our organizations are. Think about it. In the 70s and 80s, remember I told you in my original experiences, we had layer upon layer upon layer upon layer, no more. Most organizations are much, much flatter. Which then is an opportunity and a challenge, right, for the C suite. Because you have a lot of interaction now with the people that are getting the work done in a way that CEOs in the 70s did not. And that is actually a good thing, I would say, right? Because people want a very strong senior leadership team. If you look at what Gallup would say about engagement, sure, people are very connected to the manager. And if you've got turnover problems, I suggest you look right there. But when you have a weakness in your middle management, having a very strong senior leadership team can really complement and compensate, quite honestly. So now if you get rid of the middle right now, think about the expectations of all the leaders of an organization. In a flat organization, okay, so are the expectations on Senior leaders and CEOs, regardless of your profits, status is very, very significant. And you've got a lot of FaceTime, right? If you're in a flat organization, you have a lot of authority and you do have position, power. So those are all the reasons why, I think taking a good hard look at your leadership style and the mission that you're trying to accomplish, can you put a succession plan together that makes sense? Because are people going to be there? Are they going to be in their seats to succeed? It's challenging, very challenging. So that's my few points on why I think it's becoming more and more relevant, other than the fact that it works. People that work for organizations that have transformative leaders do better.

Gina Maza (36:26)

I think, you know, as I reflect on my own career, my own time working in industry, as I came into the workforce, I would say I was at the tail end of a phase that was sort of more our parents generation, where a lot of these large organizations represented community and identity for folks. It was the classic, you know, you, you go, you work for a company for 40 years and then you retire, they give you a party and a watch with your name on the back. And, you know, and, and that was very much in vogue sort of in the generation just prior to mine. And in. And then as I came into the workforce, there was still some of that, but it began to fade and, and was replaced by more of a transactional relationship. You know, you're valuable to me as long as I need you. And we got into mass layoffs and we got into rifts and we got into stuff. And this notion of, well, now we're in the age of disloyalty, you know, I don't want to work for the man, because what has the man ever done for me? And you know, if, if they're not going to be loyal to me, I'm not going to be loyal to them. And we went through a whole, you know, sort of this middle phase. And now I see us coming into, you know, the third phase, if you will. Just in terms of my own experience, where there's an emptiness to the transactional relationship and people are finding, you know, you spend an awful lot of time on the job. And so what is resonating more would be, I'm aligned with the mission of this organization. I feel as though this work matters. There's meaning, there's purpose. And as I look at that progression through those various phases, I think the community and identity phase is where servant leadership can resonate. In that transactional disloyalty phase, probably not as much, but in the meaning and purpose era, I could see why it would be making such a comeback. Because if people are looking for alignment of values and a sense that they're part of something greater, it's harder to do that when your boss doesn't show empathy, isn't trying to develop you, is putting their own interests first and so forth. So, you know, that's, to me that that's a progression I've witnessed over the course of my own life.

Gina Maza (38:54)

Absolutely agree with that. And how wonderful is that? In many ways, you know, I think that we've had some rough years and I like that we're landing here. And I love that I get asked about this and we speak about it because it's, it's good for everybody. And you know, I often think overall, people come to work to do a good job, right? Rarely is that not the case. Even when the person isn't a good fit, maybe this is not a good fit and they don't stay with the organization for one reason or another. That's still a person that intended to do a good job. And, you know, I have to say this is one of the best experiences I've had with a student. It really taught me a lot. I mean, I learned a lot from these students. And to your point, about people wanting to feel connected, it is so vitally important. The student had asked me for some advice about this job that she was hoping to get, and she's graduating with her degree and she's all excited. Great. And so I talked to her, I coach her right on how to, whatever the conversation was about. And I realized in this conversation, she has actually already accepted a job somewhere else. But guess what? She did not feel connected with that organization and had no problem saying no thank you to the job. She already accepted to go to this other place because she liked the culture better, she felt better about it, more connected. And honestly, Ray, it was such a wonderful, wonderful example of where people are. I mean, people make choices and we should make choices about work, life balance and where we spend our time. Time is so precious. Of course, obviously I sound old, don't I? But it's true in that the older I get, the more I realize, wow, I've really got to spend my time wisely. And that is true for every single person that goes to work every day or volunteers every day. And I see that more and more, certainly over the last five years. Our world obviously is very different. And then I think to your point, people want to work, volunteer, spend their time where it matters. Organizations that matter, whatever it might be, mission driven places, feelings, whatever your hobby even, I just see it so much more. Do you? Don't you?

Gina Maza (41:36)

I am, yeah. I mean, no question, I am seeing it. And I think there are some important differences through the generations in terms of relationship to work. Unfortunately, we're in an era now where the proportionality between cost structure and income is worse than it has been. So we hear a lot, you know, and our students speak to this. But, you know, it's hard to buy a house. It's hard, you know, it's hard to. It's hard to afford things and so forth. And that is driving some important trends just in terms of how they relate to their careers and, you know, where people live and how much they want to invest in their career and so forth. And so, you know, change is a constant. We all know that. Gina, this has been a very helpful kind of introduction to servant leadership. You mentioned some good resources, some good books. I, you know, I think if you, if you go to a bookstore and you look up there on their website, books about servant leadership, you'll find some pretty, you know, highly rated ones that have been out for a while. But I think this is a good, this is a good primer perhaps for those who may be less familiar with it or who want to learn more about it. If people wanted to learn more about you and what you do, how can people find you?

Gina Maza (43:00)

I think the best way is email me. I have a website, gmazza.org and I'm happy to share my email, which is gina lmazza@outlook.com G I N A L M A Z z A@outlook.com would be happy to chat with people.

Gina Maza (43:17)

Okay, great. And information about you is on your website, sounds like. And people can also reach you there. So that's great.

Gina Maza (43:24)

And LinkedIn. Sorry to interrupt you. LinkedIn also.

Gina Maza (43:26)

Yep, okay, fantastic. Thank you so much, Gina. I really appreciate your being on the podcast.

Gina Maza (43:32)

My, absolutely, my pleasure, Ray. Thank you.

Gina Maza (43:35)

Thanks for listening.

Ray Spadoni (43:36)

I hope you'll consider leaving a five star review on Apple Podcasts or your platform of choice that will help others find us here. My mission is to help empower organizations that matter by supporting those who lead them. Feel free to learn more about me and my work@redsailadvisors.com.