A Latter-day Saint Identity Crisis, Now What? | An Interview with Alan & Marianne Downing

Summary

Podcast Summary: "A Latter-day Saint Identity Crisis, Now What?"

Leading Saints | Host: Leading Saints | Guests: Alan & Marianne Downing
Release Date: August 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Kurt Francom of Leading Saints speaks with Alan and Marianne Downing, both Latter-day Saint converts and facilitators of identity-based retreats. The conversation dives deep into the meaning of identity for Latter-day Saints (and people in general), particularly how we define ourselves beyond roles, callings, and group expectations. The Downings share their personal journeys through faith, cultural assimilation, marriage, and leadership, examining how crises and transitions spark much-needed self-discovery. Key themes include the dangers of conflating roles with identity, the essential nature of belonging versus fitting in, the importance of taking risks in spiritual growth, and the transformative power of shared, experiential learning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Core of Identity for Latter-day Saints

• Who Am I?
  • Alan: "I think it comes down to the fundamental question that every human being asks themselves. Who am I? ...People are constantly asking that question." (05:40)
  • Marianne challenges women at her retreats to describe themselves without referencing their roles or religious identity, pressing for deeper values and self-concept. (06:36)

2. Personal vs. Group Identity

• Belonging or Fitting In?
  • Marianne distinguishes belonging (“I can belong...by believing the same principles”) from fitting in (“I don't have to be exactly the same as everybody else”). (11:53)
  • Alan introduces a third element: the place for “the rebel”—those who ask hard questions or doubt. “There's always a tension. ...A faith crisis is an opportunity.” (13:06–14:11)

3. Conformity, Diversity, and Unity

• Conformity ≠ Unity
  • Alan: “People can confuse conformity with unity. There's a lot more unity in diversity...there are often dissonant moments in that musical experience, but then they get worked through and resolve to a final chord.” (29:36)

4. The Evolution of Identity through Life Transitions

• Losing and Reclaiming Identity

  • Marianne recounts her upbringing in New Zealand as the child of Dutch immigrants, struggling with cultural identity.
  • Her marriage and subsequent divorce led to “giving up Marianne” until she reclaimed and committed to never losing herself again. (15:02)
  • Alan shares his journey from atheism to conversion (“discovering that there’s a God changes a lot about one's identity”) and then losing himself in “the grind” of roles and marriage. (18:01–23:15)

• Transitions Can Spark Crisis

  • Host: “You sort of get to the end of [a role] and you enter a transition, and suddenly you have this identity crisis...how do I function in this context?” (26:41)

5. Immature vs. Mature Identity

• External vs. Internal Anchors
  • Alan explains, “Immature identity depends on external sources...it's very fluid, also very rigid. ...A mature identity has a fixed point, an anchor, but is flexible.” (35:08)

6. Healthy Self-Exploration vs. Selfishness

• Go Far Enough in Self-Discovery
  • Marianne: “I think people don’t go far enough in their identity. ...When I'm really grounded...I’m more in a space to be present for everybody else. I'm not as selfish, in fact.” (32:51)

7. Risk, Experience, and Wisdom

• Stepping Beyond Comfort
  • Alan: “Investment takes risk...if I'm going to grow my talents, I've got to take a risk...within our church and most religions, they don't encourage risk. ...But if I’m going to grow...” (39:13)
  • Marianne reflects on the temple narrative: “The lie was that knowledge is enough...God literally had to send Adam and Eve out to get life experiences...” (40:45)

8. Why Retreats? The Power of Experiential Learning

• Not Just Knowledge—Experience
  • “We try and give [participants]...a whole bunch of life experiences that give them wisdom. ...We need life experiences.” (41:28)
  • Alan notes, “So much of what plagues us...is thrown into this bucket of, well, it's a mental health problem. So go see a therapist...a lot of it's just personal growth.” (43:57)

9. Safe Spaces for Exploration

• No Judgment—Only Acceptance
  • Alan: “We view ourselves as kind of living scriptures. We want to enhance [church community], give them tools...at the retreats...there's no judgment.” (48:28)
  • “The bonds we form...are remarkable over 72 hours. ...That's what the scriptures mean when they say there was a change in countenance.” (50:13)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Paradox of Identity

  • Alan: “I am a speck of sand in this immense cosmos, and I'm the only speck of sand like me. ...It's that paradox of, I am a child of God, but so are you, and so is she, and so is everybody else. What makes me special?” (08:07)

• On Group Identity & The Role of 'The Rebel'

  • Alan: “There has to be a place for the rebel in our wards, the person who asks the uncomfortable questions...so that all three elements...the tension can exist in the chapel and internally within us.” (13:06)

• On Seasons & Transitions

  • Host: “Even being released from a calling, or starting a new career, or...a mission. There's all these transitions that have us subconsciously questioning our identity: ‘Who am I now when I don’t have a role or relationship to define me?’” (02:55–06:36)

• On Parenting & Anchors

  • Alan: “Our rebellion looked like becoming Latter-day Saints. ...I never lost my testimony...I had something to come back to. ...How do we give our children that anchor? ...If they don't...they don't have an anchor to return back to.” (34:10–36:34)

• On Risk and Experimentation in Faith

  • Alan: “Investment takes risk...if I'm going to grow, I've got to take a risk.” (39:13)

• On Experience as Wisdom

  • Marianne: “And then God sends them out...that they may gain experience...and it's experience that gives us the wisdom. ...Knowledge isn’t enough.” (40:45)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:40 – The foundation: “Who am I?” and the evolving nature of identity
• 11:53 – Marianne distinguishes fitting in from belonging
• 13:06 – Alan on the necessity of having space for “the rebel” in church community
• 18:01–23:15 – Alan’s conversion and the journey of losing then reclaiming identity
• 24:40 – The challenge: “Just focus on who God wants you to become”
• 29:36 – Alan’s metaphor: unity in diversity vs. conformity
• 32:51 – Marianne on mature identity: “People don’t go far enough...”
• 35:08 – Mature vs. immature identity
• 39:13 – Parable of the talents and taking spiritual risks
• 40:45 – Temple narrative: experience over knowledge
• 48:28 – Purpose and approach of the retreats: non-judgmental, Christ-centered, supportive

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Final Encouragement & Takeaways

• Identity is an Evolving Journey:
  • Marianne: “Let us keep knowing that that's a journey and that it's okay that I'm not all the way there yet, that one day I will be full of that light. But I need to know that it's a journey.” (53:13)
• “You can't have a ‘we’ until you have a ‘me’.”
  • Alan: “What makes God's plan so remarkable is as we are social beings on a solitary journey. ...I have to hold both of those tensions in my hand.” (53:48)

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For Further Involvement

• The Downings facilitate regular men’s and women’s retreats (Smithfield, UT) designed for deep, experiential work on identity—open to multi-denominational audiences, with an emphasis on returning empowered to serve family and ward.
• More information on their retreats and additional resources can be found via links in the episode show notes or by connecting through the Leading Saints platform.

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Whether you're newly released, entering a new life stage, stuck in the grind, or just feeling a crisis brewing, Alan and Marianne advocate for courageously engaging your unique story. Identity isn't just for youth or converts—it's the root of your ability to serve, belong, and become.

Transcript

[Host (Leading Saints)]

All right, here's our goal, folks. Leading Saints is no longer a podcast. Well, obviously we are a podcast. We will continue to podcast, but we're really shifting our focus over to Zion Lab, which is an online community put on and developed by Leading Saints. And this is where we want to go and gather the masses and share ideas about leadership, share ideas about different callings, share ideas about building Zion.

And this is the place that we want to make online, where all things

are discussed, great ideas are shared, and that we can help one another in whatever calling we're in or what calling we're not in, to feel like, you

know, I've got purpose here.

I can really make a difference in shifting culture in a better way or developing Zion in my own corner of the kingdom. So join us over at zion [e-mail] Zion and there you can just jump in. It's free to join and create a profile and jump in and look around and answer some questions, leave a comment,

pose a question, and I think you'll benefit from the things we're doing over at Zion Lab. So join us.

So before we launch into this podcast episode, maybe you are brand new to Leading Saints and you're wondering, okay, what is this? Why is there this platform talking about all things church leadership? Yeah, that's what we do at Leading Saints. We are a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. And that may be in a formal leadership role, or it may just be as a Zion builder. How can I just contribute more? How can I influence the culture of my ward or my community in a positive way, even though I don't have a formal role? Or maybe there are those in a more formal role and they just want to understand how they can best execute their responsibilities in a way that will benefit the ward and keep people coming back and just bless the lives in general. So that's what we do at Leading Saints. We are the Go to platform where we explore all these things, sharing best practices, ideas, thoughts, what you've tried, what's worked, what hasn't worked. So we welcome you to Leading Saints. Go to leading saints.org Zion to get started. Ask questions, explore answers, and I think your life and leadership will be blessed because of it.

I want to introduce you to my

friends, Alan and Marianne Downing, who, man, we just have such a rich discussion in this episode about identity. This is at the core of some work that they're doing. They do this via retreats. Now, I know with, through Leading Saints, we've put out there Various different retreats, even retreats like Warrior Heart that I help facilitate, which I highly recommend, of course. But I think this is really something. And again, this isn't all about, oh, everybody's going to got to go on a retreat. And, you know, obviously there's a cost with retreats and things like that, but I think our journey with understanding our identity, understanding our role, considering our mental health, considering our different relationships, like, how do we fit into this role? Or we have different seasons, which we talked about in this episode, different seasons we go through that could be quite disruptive. Even being released from a calling or

starting a new career, or, I mean,

starting a mission, returning from a mission. There's all these transitions that have us sort of subconsciously questioning our identity as far as, like, yeah, I know who I am, generally speaking, or in the I am a child of God context. But, like, I don't know how that really fits, or, I don't know how I navigate this part of my life. And so we often default to, oh,

you got to go see a therapist, like, go to some office, sit on

a couch and talk all about this. But there's so many more options out there, especially when you're striving to be a better leader. You need experiences. You need something else other than just reading the next book or listening to the next podcast, which I'm so grateful for everybody who listens to this podcast. But you cannot live on podcast alone, right? Like, you've got to experience life. You got to consider, be prayerful about what is God inviting you into, what is uncomfortable about that, what are the risks involved? And retreats are simply another way of maybe a shortcut or a clear way to step into this, right? Rather than waiting for the next crisis to enter your life. And like, great, a learning experience.

Let's do this.

So, anyways, I hope you really appreciate this conversation I have with the Downings. And this is one to maybe visit a couple times through, right? Or sit on the. The 1 1x speed. Don't try and speed this one up because there's a lot to consider and contemplate. And if you're listening and you're jiving with it, like, you know, lean into that. Or if you're listening and you're maybe skeptical about the message, like, that's okay. Like, sit with it, process it. Nobody's trying to alter your perception of the gospel or things like that.

Just lean into it.

And we want everybody to maybe consider the complexities of mortality and how we can better find ourselves on a Covenant path, how we can better be in relationship with our savior Jesus Christ. So fantastic discussion links in in the show notes.

Let's jump in.

Here's my interview with Allan and Marianne Downing. All right, Alan and Marianne Downing, how are you?

[Marianne Downing]

We're great.

[Alan Downing]

We're great this morning.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Awesome. Well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast, and really, I want to just jump into the work you do, and we're going to hear about your story and some of the projects you have going on. But, I mean, the work you do is all around this concept of identity, which I think is at the core of the gospel. I mean, it's why we're here. And, you know, it's when we understand our identity, we can understand so much more, really put the gospel into perspective. So when it comes to identity, like, I mean, that can seem like such this broad topic, but where's a good, good starting point for the concept of identity?

[Alan Downing]

Well, I'll start because I let her start often enough. I think it comes down to the fundamental question that every human being asks themselves. Who am I? Yeah, it's so fundamental that, yeah, people are constantly asking that question. And ironically, throughout life, they think that identity. They often think that, wow, once I know who I am, that's why I'm going to stay. But, you know, as the joke goes, he's not the man I married.

[Marianne Downing]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

And she's not the woman he married. You're not that woman. We're constantly evolving, and particularly when we have transitions in life, then we get to revisit that question, you know, now that I no longer am employed, now that the children are out of the house, now that I'm home from my mission, now that I've been released as a bishop, which I'm sure you second identify with, who am I now when I don't have a role or a relationship to define me?

[Marianne Downing]

And on that basis, for a woman, a lot. I used to run a woman's group, and I used to say, let's introduce ourselves. But I've got a few conditions. The first one is, you can't mention mother, you can't mention wife. You can't mention where you're from or your religion. And they all look at me blankly and go, so what do I say? And so then I say, so identity is the deep stuff, the things that we will take with us into the eternities. And so it's about, okay, so what are your values? What do you believe? What are those things that represent who you are? And how do you Describe yourself to others without your roles. Yeah, and women have trouble with that because we see ourselves. I'm a mother, I'm a wife. And so it's going to the deeper levels, I think.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, that's fascinating. And, I mean, I'm just thinking of individuals who may be listening to this. Obviously, you know, it's a very orthodox audience. A lot of them have been through the nursery, the primary, the young men's, young women's. And, you know, there. There is this emphasis on identity there. I mean, even from the beginning, singing I Am a child of God, it's such a rich identity experience. And. But I don't know, because, you know, what is identity or who am I? Can be such a profound question. At the same time, it can be very superficial questions, sort of like, what do you mean, who am I? I. I'm a child of God. Like, I'm a disciple. I mean, why do I need to sit with this question when, you know, let's get into the meat of. Of the gospel type of thing? Right. Like, how would you respond to that?

[Alan Downing]

Well, I go back to. And now we're getting into stories, but I go back to the first time I stood at the rim of the Grand Canyon. And we arrived there late on December 30, I think it was. It was cold and late, and we decided to stay and see the stars come out. That seemed mundane enough, but, boy, I was not ready for what I received as my friend and I were standing at the rim and suddenly it went pitch black. And all of the stars of the universe appeared and the Milky Way. And I'm literally. We're both overwhelmed. And we started. We broke into a verse of How Great Thou Art. It was just that overwhelming moment. And it was in that moment that I realized I'm nothing. I am a speck of sand in this immense cosmos, and I'm the only speck of sand like me. So it's that paradox of, I am a child of God, but so are you, and so is she, and so is everybody else. What makes me special. And it's part of our humanity, our human desire to be special. And so our job, what we have taken on as our mission, is to help people find what is uniquely special about them, how to hold on to that and at the same time, how to help it grow. Because, like, the universe, it's constantly expanding, as are we. Well, hopefully we're not constantly expanding physically, but you know what I mean?

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Marianne, anything to add to that or that?

[Marianne Downing]

Well, just in terms of that, for me as well, this idea of being individual in the church, for me, I think that we try and be too much the same and we conform and we want to be. To fit in. And I think that we do the church a disservice because this idea of, you know, this. The scripture that talks about, you know, all these members of our. We're arms and we're legs and we're the head and we're, you know, if we truly knew our individual identity, imagine the power of that, that we could bring to the gospel our respective individuality, and that the power of being complementary rather than trying to be the same and fitting in would make the church and the gospel so much more expansive and bigger. And so I think that our identity is also tied to growing the gospel beyond where it is at the moment as well.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah. And, you know, you talk about the, you know, we do try and conform. I think that's human nature. And we want. We sort of identify, you know, we have our personal identity and then our group identity, our tribe. Right. That we. We want to fit in and, you know, we want to. We don't be discarded. And just even the experience of showing up at church or if a new convert shows up at church, you kind of start to pick up the cues in the room of being like, okay, all the people in charge, at least the men are in white shirts and ties. The women are very modestly dressed. Like, I guess, you know, whether we're cognitively thinking these through, sort of like, I need. I need, need to adapt my identity so that I fit in here, and then I'm accepted because there is that sort of that innate desire of like, sure, I want to understand who I am, but I also want to be accepted. And what if I am somebody that people don't want to accept? Right. And that's where there's shame and all the things that creep in there. But anything come to mind as far as navigating that group identity as we're trying to discover our individual identity?

[Marianne Downing]

So just to say that in terms of what, I'm a convert to the church, and I was converted very quickly, in fact, within two days after the missionaries came. And so my very first Sunday was as a member of the church, and I didn't know the dress code, and they didn't tell me. And I had seen a woman wearing a blue polka dot scarf, and she didn't wear any makeup, and they called her sister.

[Alan Downing]

At your baptism on Thursday.

[Marianne Downing]

At my baptism, I saw this woman. I only had the four elders at my baptism, and this woman came after to clean the bathroom. And I thought, sister, okay, it's kind of Quakerish. So I arrived at my first Sunday just wearing the dowdiest dress I could find, no makeup. And then I was introduced to two young, single adults, and they looked like they stepped out of a Vogue magazine. And I went, oops. So it was that idea of fitting in. This is my church, my new church. I have to figure this out. It's this idea, as you said, constantly, of balancing that I want to. So that to my mind, there's a difference between fitting in and belonging. And so I can belong, belong by believing the same principles. But I don't actually have to be exactly the same as everybody else. I think those two principles are different. And I think as leaders in the church, I think we need to encourage that. You belong here, but you don't necessarily have to fit in to be exactly the same. I think those are two principles.

[Alan Downing]

So we were doing a little bit of show prep for this, and we listened to one of your recent podcasts. Podcasts. I think his name is Tucker Boyle. The seminary teacher.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

And he made that point that how do you belong and yet hold on to your unique identity? How do you attend church and be unique? And I think it was he who said that you hold this tension, and there will always be a tension. I have a belief, too, that there's a third element to that model. It's not just about fitting in versus belonging to. There has to be a place for the rebel in our wards, the person who asks the uncomfortable questions in Sunday school, who doesn't fully have that testimony and that voice has to be heard so that all three elements, those who would conform, those who would be committed to the mission, fully committed, and those who are questioning and having doubts that the tension can exist in the chapel and internally within us. Because everybody has a. Should at least have a bit of the rebel. I mean, faith crisis is an opportunity. I think it's Jared Halverson who says, don't let the. The opportunity of a good faith crisis go to waste.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

Because it's. It's an opportunity to explore and to expand. If we're stuck in the conformity route or space, we're not going to be willing to take those risks.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

And likewise, if we're so committed to this is the way it is. This is what the brethren have said. We're not taking a step back and making it our own testimonies either. It's all three elements are important, I think.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, that's great. And again, that's, you know, where a lot of this stuff is, so easier said than done.

[Alan Downing]

Yeah.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

And. And that's where your work comes in. Maybe let's jump in kind of more in the context of. Of your story. How did you both kind of get into this work? And now you. You host and put on retreats where you're really helping people over several days unpack and dig into this concept of identity.

[Alan Downing]

You want to go first?

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Okay.

[Marianne Downing]

You can tell by my accent, I'm not from here. I'm from New Zealand. And I was born to Dutch parents who immigrated to New Zealand who were extremely Dutch. And so I was confused from an early stage where I would spend the daytime being New Zealander, and at nighttime I would be Dutch. It was, like, very confusing. And so it was, like, bit of an identity issue right from the very beginning. I went to university, and unfortunately, I was the victim of a date rape at that time. And I went to counseling to try and deal with the issues of that. And the woman came to the conclusion. She said, there's something not quite right here, she said. And eventually she said, I think you're suffering from an identity crisis. And I went, what? An identity crisis? Oh, okay. So she switched the therapy around and started working with me to get me grounded in who I am. And that was the first beginning for me in this whole message of identity. And it followed me throughout my entire adult life. I joined the church after that and got all excited, went on a mission. Big thing about being a lat day saint and wanting to tell the whole world. And then came home and I got married, fell in love. But marriage was really difficult. And in this difficult marriage, I lost my identity all over again. Whatever he said, I did because I was trying to work hard to save the marriage. It was my belief that, hey, temple marriages, that's where it's at. And you are required to do everything you can to make it work. And so I thought that that was my responsibility as a wife and as a mother. In fact, to give myself completely to that situation and to save it. You know, I would rescue the situation. So I gave up Marianne. In a sense, I got lost in that process until finally I got, oh, I need to find Marianne again. And that's when I started to find myself. That's when the marriage fell apart completely because he didn't cope with having an equal person in the relationship. And I made a promise to myself then I was never going to lose Marianne again. That if I got into another relationship. He was going to have to be ready for the fact that I was still going to be in the relationship present. And so I'm grateful that I got into a relationship with someone who is in this, that accepted me completely as I am. And so identity has been very important in that sense. So I'll hand it over to him because there's a way after that.

[Alan Downing]

Yeah, there is. There is a we. It's been going on for 14 years now. So there are a lot of similarities in our stories. I was born, I'm not from here either, here being Utah. I was born in greater Boston, in a little town north of Boston. My father was from New England, though not from that town, and my mother was from Paris. So I'm a bicultural child. And growing up in a town where that was founded in 1633, you had to be there a couple of centuries before you were considered a local or a townie. And I had been there, you know, 10, 15 years. I was there in total about 20 years. And so there was always a sense of I didn't belong. Something was off, I didn't know exactly what it was. And I went to college. I went to college to study music and to prove that there wasn't a God so I could live a happy, carefree life. And God has a sense of humor. He gave me the only Mormon on campus as a roommate. And so, yeah, nine months of debate and discussion and he became my best friend. But none of that was good enough because I didn't believe in God. But eventually I had that experience. He just kept saying to me, well, don't trust me, find out for yourself. And I did. And you know, discovering that there's a God changes a lot about one's identity. It's like, oh, like there's a purpose, there's something bigger than me. There's all of this world that was unfolding before me. In hindsight, I also recognized that I was looking for something to belong to. I wanted to be a part of something because I didn't have a clean label of I'm an American or, you know, I'm a. Whatever. It wasn't even raised in a, in a proper religion. I sang in the Protestant church, but that's about it. So I grabbed onto this and now I was a Mormon. And within 14 months I was called on a mission and fortunately I was sent to France, which was its own mind blowing experience because even though I had visited my grandparents and a couple of times and I knew my mother was French. I had no clue what that meant. And so here I am in France, and while all the American missionaries are really struggling with being in France and with the French in particular, I'm like, I'm struggling with the Mormons because I'd never lived with Mormons like that before. And I was just discovering all parts of myself that I didn't really know existed. Most of the Frenchmen I met, it was like, it's my mother, you're reacting like my mother. I was triggered for two years, but it was a good thing. And I came away with a much deeper sense of that part of I was. Anyway, got married, did the whole Mormon corporate route. But about age 28, I started to question something, like something was starting to feel off again. And I woke up to the idea that, you know, for the last 10 years I've been Alan the Mormon. What happened to Alan the Downing? And that was really the starting point of becoming conscious of identity and why it was important. Yeah, like Marianne, the marriage started to have some difficulties. I more or less gave up music. I only did it as a part time gig because a good Mormon man supports his family. So I supported my family and I got a good corporate job. And yet there was 10, 15 years later, late 30s, early 40s, I had the, you know, the proverbial midlife crisis. And I began questing a lot of things about myself. One thing I should say is that my ex wife was also a convert. And we took. Started to take different paths as it related to the church and the gospel. And at one point, I remember she was really upset about our finances and gave me an ultimatum, you know, it's tithing or me. And I chose her. And it's ironic because the next 10 years I kept choosing her and trying to save the marriage. And this is kind of not familiar doctrine, but I never made more money in my life. And it wasn't just that I was earning 10% more financially, we did better than ever, but in the process, I was losing me. So when I finally started to reclaim myself, one of the big declarations of hey, I'm back was I'm going to pay tithing again. And she didn't care for that. And we continued to grow apart because as with Marianne, the more I stepped into myself, the more threatening it was because I was upsetting the status quo. The last piece of that part of the story before we get to the we is in the early 2000s, I attended a men's retreat and that changed my life. It opened my eyes to rediscovering me. It was a year or so later that I started paying tithing again. It was interesting how leaving the confines of the church and stepping outside to look at the way other people saw things actually made me become a better Latter Day Saint and more committed to what was important to me. So that's kind of my story and how it parts of my story. There's a lot more I could go on and on, but that's what led me to this now has been a 20 year journey of self exploration and helping others. Done lots of retreats since then. And then 10 years after that, I'm divorced finally and I meet Marianne.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Awesome. And now it's the we. Right?

[Alan Downing]

Now it's the we.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, that's awesome. So there's so many things in there that for both of your stories that really makes you consider identity and maybe some common pushback on this concept because. And this is the paradox of it, right? Where you know, obviously the gospel gives us perspective and context of who we are. But then you get into the grind of it, you know, it's not even that you're rebelling or starting to sin and pray of it, you know, in extreme measures or it's just like the grind of like you, you wake up sort of after 10 years of being married or doing the job or, you know, just in the grind of it. And you, you, you've lost grasp of that anchor of your core identity. And so there is this paradox. I'm curious for you to unpack a little bit where, you know, I suddenly feel this drive to understand who they are. And others say, well, no, no, that, I mean, sure, that's important, maybe in primary, but now it's all about who God wants you to become. So just focus on who God wants you to come. But that's often hard to do without starting the beginning of wait, but who am I right now or in the past or whatever. Right? So what would you say, like those who want to sort of dismiss this, let's not worry about who we are. I mean, intellectually understand it. Let's just focus on getting better at the scripture studies, dialing the come follow me, you know, showing up for the family and, and just focusing on who God wants me to become.

[Marianne Downing]

So for me, I've seen around, when I've worked with a lot of the. I'm originally a therapist by trade. And as I've watched people, those people who don't know their identity and who are lost and who are looking around don't do relationships very well. And are constantly looking for affirmation, looking for people to say I'm good, right, I'm good, right. And those people don't tend to have a very good relationship with God because the ability to have a relationship to my mind means I'm pretty grounded in myself first. I have to be able to be open to a relationship. So I think it's a simultaneous thing that I am going to be open to becoming who God wants to become because I am grounded in who I am myself. I'm open to it. I'm not looking around constantly for affirmation from other people or I'm not lost. So I think that has to be a beginning point. Does that make

[Alan Downing]

the piece that I would add to that is I'll take you back to the rim of the Grand Canyon. I belong to the universe and I'm the only thing like me in the universe and I have to be a part of that and develop my unique self self so that I can contribute to that in the unique way that God envisions because he knows me so well. I like to think and we, this is one of the things we teach at the retreat. That identity is both discovered and it's co created just like God is. The creation is, is an ongoing process. We are an ongoing process of creation and we like to say co creation because we're not creating ourselves in a vacuum. We're actually creating ourselves within a social context of families, wards, communities and we're co creating ourselves with God. So it's this ongoing growing process.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

That's awesome. Really good. And I appreciate, you know, because I've experienced this my own life thinking of, you know, I spent from my late 20s, I guess my mid-20s to my mid-30s, sort of a decade of time where I was in intense church leadership, right. And it's so much time, I mean so many people I think can understand this in the context of a mission. Like even two years, like by the time you come home from, from that mission, you don't know how you fit into normal society at times, right? And there's all the jokes of, you know, the awkward return missionary trying to fit in or you know, doesn't know how to dress or get up or just function in society. But, but even in these different seasons, right? And you both talked about these different seasons are in where you sort of get to the end of it or you enter a transition and then suddenly you kind of have this identity crisis where you're like I don't know how to function in this context. Whether it's, you know, at the end of the 10 years of. In church leadership, I didn't really know how to go to church and just sit in the pews and, you know, have a. More of a passive experience rather than being the one in charge and, you know, being on the inside of all the decisions that are being made in a ward and these things. And so. And I see this a lot with, like, stake presidents who get released after nine years, where it's like, man, I don't know, like, how do I show up? And they. They often kind of are this lost puppy in their. In their ward for a while until they find that, or if they're lucky enough, they kind of then move on to the next thing, the. The mission presidency, and then that person moves on to becoming a 70. Right. And. And then they never have to really sit with who they are because they're onto the next thing, the next context, the next season. That's defining, oh, this is who you are. Just act in this context, in this way, and you'll be fine. Right. And you'll feel that. I think that important word that you said, Marianne, is that the affirmation, the validation. Right. Of, yes, you're doing it.

Right.

Because you're acting in this context where you should. And then we lose ourselves when suddenly those contexts or those seasons pass. Right. What comes to mind as I meander through those thoughts?

[Alan Downing]

Well, very simply, in whatever context, professionally, church, family, missionary. Does my role define who I am or does who I am define my role and how I approach a role, even a defined role like bishop or missionary? And so I think that is definitely one of the things we on the retreats try to shift. Don't be dictated to or driven by the role or someone else's story of who you should be in that role. Take your unique self and bring life to that role. Because God called you because you have unique abilities at that time. We had a bishop in our ward the last cycle, and when he was called and his counselors were announced, there was this gas that went through the entire congregation. And I turned to Marianne and I thought, wow, do I have a lot more respect for the stake president than I ever had before because he is such an individual?

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

I had the privilege of being his financial clerk for five years. And I say privilege, it was very creative because he was so who he was, defined the job, and I really appreciated that about him. And. And so I think that's what God wants us to do, is to develop our unique selves and contribute to the church and to the community, rather than let the community tell us who we're supposed to be. People can confuse unit conformity with unity. There's a lot more unity in diversity. When you think of singing. If we're all singing the same melody all the time, it's beautiful, it's unified, it's kind of dull. But when we have all of these different voices coming together. In fact, I think it was that same podcast that we listened to where he talked about music and how we become unified through singing and coming together. But when we have harmonies, I'm not singing the same line you are, but it comes together and there are often dissonant moments in that musical experience, but then they get worked through and resolve to a final chord.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Marianne Downing]

So to answer your question, for me to add to that, when I get released. So like I was a stake release only present for five years and I was speaking every week and suddenly I was released every. And I didn't have any calling for anything for a period of time and suddenly was like, well, what do I do? What do I do? And there was nothing. But it was the question that I had to ask about, okay, to go back to the Lord and say, what do I learn from this? And the constant question is always the same for me about every situation, every transition. Okay, Lord, what do I need to understand about myself in this process? And how do I learn now what you want me to do with this situation and taking it into the next stage of my life? And how do I keep adding each stage so that I go to the next stage having become more advanced, more enlarged, so I can be more enlarged with no calling, and still be growing in myself that by the time I go to the next stage, I am someone different and am becoming the way you described from before.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah. So where my mind goes is there's so many of these types of messages out there. And I know that it worries some people because I'm just thinking of the listener thinking, oh no, my daughter in law or my sister or my brother, like I saw them go down this path of like this self focus, you know, and where they get too hyper focused on who am I, I've got to find myself. And then they leave their family or they take a left turn on the gospel path and now they're, you know, all about crystals or, you know, more new age stuff. And so that's the tricky thing of this and this is the paradox of it and that how it. Because I truly believe deeply about these concepts of self and identity and things. Is there like some guidance you can offer as people go down this path? Because maybe some are like, I'm too worried that I'm going to take a wrong turn or be it feels too selfish or self focused.

[Marianne Downing]

Anthony Sweat, I think you've spoken to him once before. He talked about when people are worried about the history of the church. And he mentioned a talk once and he said people don't go far enough in their history when they, if they just went further, they would feel more comfortable with it. I feel the same way about identity that when we're still searching, then it feels selfish because I'm constantly looking around to everybody else and it's all about me, me, me. But when I'm really grounded and I'm getting to the point where I'm in more secure identity, I don't feel so much need to take care of myself because I'm so secure. I know that I've got myself to come back to and then I can give myself to others. I'm more in a space to be present for everybody else. I'm not as selfish, in fact, because I've gotten far enough where I feel comfortable to give to my husband or my children or to my community and my church. I think people don't go far enough in their identity. They need to go to that point where they're really able to give because I'm secure enough to know I'm okay. I'm all right.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, that's a great, great way to frame it. Alan, anything to add?

[Alan Downing]

Well, I would just bear in mind you're talking to two converts here.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Marianne Downing]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

Our rebellion looked like becoming Latter Day Saints.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah. Which we all like, cheer on and be like, yeah, what a great story. Right.

[Alan Downing]

And yet even with that, I never lost my testimony of the truthfulness of the church. As a singer. I sang in lots of different churches after I joined the church and so I got to know them from the inside. And I've just arrived at a conclusion that they're all crazy, but so are we. So why would I trade my crazy for their crazy? I'm going to stick with the one I have.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, that's great.

[Alan Downing]

I think it's a different ch. So when I, when I had my. My tithing issue and was it my marriage was my tithing, I still had an anchor to hold on to. I couldn't deny that moment when, oh yeah, there's a God. Oh, can't deny that. I just can't. So I had something to come back to. So I think if we can allow our children. Because when you're born in the church, it's a different story.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

How do we give our children that anchor? They have to find out the same way they have to find out for themselves. It's like my roommate told me, don't believe me, Find out for yourself. I think as parents, that's what we have to do. Here's the example. This is what I believe now. You need to find out for yourself. If they don't and they keep following the. The safe track until they're 30 or 40 and suddenly they find crystals or whatever it is they find, they don't have an anchor to return back to. And so we like to say that we have a concept called immature versus mature identity. Immature identity depends on external sources. It's very much the teenage phase of life that is our day and age extends into our middle age at least. But it's very much influenced by what happens around me. And it's very fluid. It's also very rigid. When I am this thing, I am it and nothing's going to shake me. Whereas with a concept that we refer to as mature identity, that has a fixed point, an anchor, if you will. But it's flexible so that we can move and we can explore. But I always have this thing to come back to. I think that's why President Nelson, during his presidency as when he was prophet, was emphasizing identity so much. Multiple talks where he just said there was a. One of the sisters asked him, president, what can I tell the youth? And his response was, help them know who they are.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, it's powerful.

[Alan Downing]

As a convert, that's what I found out, that who I am is totally anchored in, oh, wow, there's a God. This is mind blowing.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, that's awesome. And there's, you know, this is so complex at times and, and it can be scary, right, because it is so much easier to simply conform and say, you know what? I'm just gonna do the program. As I see it. It's very simple, you know, and this is why I would. This may be a whole nother episode where some people will look at their church experience as I don't need really anything else. I go to church every week. The gospel's taught there, generally speaking, you know, but again, in the format of the church is changing so differently that this is where, you know, I mean, I don't want to push too much as far as like, oh, no, you need to supplement your church experience. But in reality, I think you, you really have to do. But it doesn't necessarily mean, oh, you have to supplement with the Downings retreat or with the, the Warrior Heart retreats, I do, or whatever. But God will supplement your journey in one way or the other where it's I need you to go to therapy or I need you to go on this retreat, or I need you to pick up your family and move across the country, or I need you to go back to law school, right? It's these journeys that God invites us into because we get so enmeshed in our life experience. And this is where the identity crisis comes from. Because, you know, going back to some of your, both of your stories of like, even like when a divorce happens, there's this disruption where for some people it can be like, where I thought I was so sure about this union, this marriage, and now it didn't work out. So I don't even know if I'm sure about God anymore, right? And then it kind of untangles and you're lost and you're. That's where you're kind of floundering, right? And so it does take some experiences to begin to untangle this. And a passive once a week now we're getting, you know, maybe by the time this is the record will be closer or publish will be closer to the 25 minute classes, right? It's going to take more than just this passive sit in the class 25 minutes and sort of learn things or have this passive, you know, church community. I think it's really is about being open to saying, I think I need something more, something, a container of some type. And this is why I feel like maybe we can transition and segue to the retreat experience. I feel like a retreat experience again. Whether it's the Downings, whether it's Warrior Heart, whether it's something else, whether it's like I'm just going to go camping for a week and just, you know, stare at a tree, if that's what I need, until God shows up in a burning bush, I mean, whatever it is. But there's something about stepping into an uncomfortable context or a container to say, all right, what can you do for me here? And what can I learn in this context? What comes to mind as I say all that?

[Alan Downing]

Well, if I can jump in. I've been lately really fascinated by the parable of the talents. And we know that the unfaithful servant just hid his talent. The ones who were faithful went out, they invested well. Investment takes risk. Any financial advisor will tell you this. All of these investment programs, there is risk. Involved. And yet within our church and most religions, they don't encourage risk. Stay safe, stick within the boundaries. But if I'm going to grow, if I'm going to grow my talents, I've got to take a risk. I mean, we don't know, what if the guy who had five invested it all and lost four, and fortunately he had the last one he invested in and went to 10? We don't know what happened.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

That's so true. Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

But we need to be able to take risk and be open to that, open to different approaches. I mean, yeah, I've done a lot of retreats and that has given me a lot that I keep bringing back to my LDS experience. But I sang in all of these other churches. I observe and understand the Sabbath so much better because I spent so many years with the Jews who take, you know, Shabbat to a whole other level.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

Likewise with Catholicism and Episcopalianism that I've sung with. I learned so much from their ritual and what they did there was so much beautiful in, so much beauty in their liturgies that I could then come back and apply it to what we do. And it creates new context for me.

[Marianne Downing]

Can I share experience that I had in the temple that I saw a learning that I had watching Satan offering the fruit to Eve and he was telling her that if you just eat this fruit of knowledge and then you'll become like the gods. And then I suddenly went, ah, that's the lie that you just need knowledge and you become like the gods. And then God sends them out and in the process, in the temple, it tells us that they may gain experience, and it's experience that gives us the wisdom. The lie was not just, you know, get the fruit. It was the fact that knowledge is enough to give you. So just giving ourselves and putting ourselves lots of, you know, scriptural knowledge and reading the scriptures isn't enough. In fact, God literally had to send Adam and Eve out to get life experiences in order for them to become like gods. We need life experiences. And the University of Utah has even done a little study on this. That wisdom that our neurons start to fire between the different parts of our brain only when we get life experiences, not with knowledge. And so we try and do that on the retreats is that we give them, in a very short space of time, a whole bunch of life experiences that give them wisdom. They get those whole neurons firing. It is literally part of God's plan to give us experiences.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

That's so profound. And it reminds me of a time you Know, I'm serving as an elders quorum president right now, and last year or so, there was a sort of an announcement put out in the American Fork area, where I'm at, saying, all the leaders in this several stakes are coming together, and a representative from a therapist from family services is going to come and speak and talk about, you know, mental health issues related to, you know, things that members are struggling with, whatever. And so I went. I was intrigued by what was going to be taught and said. And we all packed into this, you know, this very traditional chapel of an American Fork, and it was packed. I mean, not a pew was. Was empty. And. And the therapist stood at the front and had some slides and was sort of just talking through information. Right. And she seemed very experienced. I would have no hesitation of sending someone to her for therapy. But it was very much on that knowledge level, like, I'm here. I'm gonna, like, just fire hose you with knowledge. And we're all kind of nodding our head. And I sat in that context. I'm thinking what a difference this would be if we could maybe all split up even and have smaller conversations or talk about, you know, walk through some exercises where we're. We're working on our own identity, our own struggles, because that is the sanctifying nature, that we can become somebody who could actually help somebody else with mental health struggles or whatever it is. Right. So I think in our tradition, we fall into these throat experiences of, like, sit and listen. There's somebody at the front, listen. They're going to give us knowledge, and we're going to learn, and we'll be better leaders because of it. And then we wonder, this doesn't seem any easier as a leader because we really haven't experienced anything.

[Alan Downing]

Well, and I would. I would add to that that so much of what plagues us in our modern world is thrown into this bucket of, well, it's a mental health problem. So get off and see a therapist. Yeah, A lot of it's just personal growth. Faith crisis doesn't require a therapist, unless you are then exhibiting behaviors that are harmful to yourself or to others. Yeah, you can. So much of this could be worked out in communities, in groups, if we had the skills to do that. Anecdotally, I've heard lots of stories of elders quorums where they go to that level where they open up on a deeper level, and that's a beautiful thing. And to divide that into smaller groups within pods, within an elders quorum could even be better in terms of supporting each other through Our own personal challenges that don't need to go one on one and talk it through with a therapist, smaller groups, peers, putting it into action. And that's a lot of what we do on our retreats is we use techniques and experiential work so that you. They experience something, they learn a principle, then they experience it and put it into action, both physically, interrelationally, in lots of different ways to drive that home. So they experience it in a safe setting, an experiential experiment. So they could do it in a safe place and then take it out back into the world and apply it.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, it makes me think. I mean, can you imagine, you know, somebody, you. There's stories even from your stories, right. You, with hindsight, you look back at these, you know, marriages that didn't work out, and you think, I learned and grew so much from that. However, you're not going to tell somebody. Well, what you should do is sort of go dismantle your marriage and make some stress there, because you're going to learn a lot there. But instead of that, you can create these containers where people can experience things without that literal disruption that they can still grow and learn from. And that's the power of that.

[Marianne Downing]

Right. Well.

[Alan Downing]

And that was the first time we've done it.

[Marianne Downing]

Can I.

[Alan Downing]

You go first. You owe me.

[Marianne Downing]

At the same time, I worry that we live in a society where we're trying to sanitize everything. We're trying to avoid experiences that are difficult. We're trying to make things so that they're less painful, and we try to make our children especially avoid situations. And we're trying to rescue a lot. And I think that we do them a disservice because I think God gives us. I think I've gone back through my experiences and I've gone through a lot of difficult experiences. And I remember I got a priesthood blessing once and it said to me, you've led a charmed life. And I almost had whiplash because I turned around, I had what? And I just at first thought, that's crazy. And then I thought about it and I thought, you know, you're right. Because I had had all these difficult things and I'd learned so much from them. We mustn't try and rescue all the time. We do that in this modern society. It isn't just in church. I think that we are trying to dampen down what people experience, and I think that's a problem we have. We've got to allow people the experiences that God has intended for them. To have to grow and not to

[Alan Downing]

perceive them as punishments or. Yeah, punishments in particular from God. What I was going to jump in and say is that in both of our cases, we've come to the conclusion that we would still be married to our former spouses had they not drifted away, left the church, each in their own way. Because the church experience, the conversion experience, was so important for the two of us. That became our red line. And. And so as they moved further and further away, it just became the logical conclusion that, yeah, this can't go on because we're compromising too much of who we are and we need to hold on to that. We'd still be married to them today if it weren't for that.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah.

[Alan Downing]

And just to add, in my own case, at least, I'm very grateful for that. The challenges of that first marriage, it's made me a much better husband. I think she's the beneficiary of all the pain that my first wife had

[Host (Leading Saints)]

to put up with.

[Marianne Downing]

I'm grateful.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

That's great. Well, before we wrap up, is there any other concept, point, principle you want to make sure we fit in here or.

[Alan Downing]

No, just. I think the one piece that we haven't touched on, perhaps that we can, is just the value of the retreats.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Yeah, please tell us more about that.

[Alan Downing]

And, you know, retreats as well. When we created these retreats, first the men's retreat, because that's where I have my experience that I brought to it. And then we knew we wanted to do one for the women as well, the comparable retreat. It was the idea that we didn't want to replace their communities or their ex or their church membership. We view ourselves as kind of like living scriptures. We want to enhance that experience, give them tools that they can take back into their families, their wards, their quorums, and make them better. One of the things that we. At the same time. And this was another piece that I picked up from what. It's Tucker Boyle, right? The seminary teacher. Yeah. That they do. With the retreats he described, there's no judgment. It's about letting people come wherever they are in their journeys and a safe place to explore that. Nobody's going to criticize them. We don't have an outcome as to. They may stay in the church, they may leave the church. We just allow them that opportunity to explore it. Marianne has the story. Do you want to tell quickly the story about the woman who was contemplating divorce?

[Marianne Downing]

Yeah, she just came and she had been months and months agonizing over whether she should divorce her husband or not. And in an experiential way and in a practical exercise, she kept allowing herself to go, I'm going to divorce them. I'm not going to divorce them, I'm going to divorce. Oh, I don't want to divorce them, I want to stay. And she left this strong sense of knowing what she wanted to do by the time she finished the retreat. And so that was an example of someone who came allowing herself to explore and then coming to a decision.

[Alan Downing]

So giving people the freedom to explore without judgment. That's one of the consistent pieces of feedback that we get not only from the Latter Day Saints, because our retreats are very multi denominational. We have Protestants, Catholics, a significant portion of Mennonites who come, which is really cool because they really up our musical quality dramatically and we just sing a lot of hymns there. But within a couple of hours it's like, oh, this is safe. I'm not being judged, I'm just being accepted for who I am. And then they in turn can accept others. So the bonds that we form is, I'm sure, and that's true for many retreats, but the bonds we form are remarkable over 72 hours. But then because it's rooted in Christ and because we're not trying to create a unique community that they can now come join, we work with them to integrate that back into their regular lives and make the changes they need. If that's necessary, you know, that's up to them, but at least they have the tools and they know there's a safe place. And as I'm sure you've seen as well, the change from beginning of the weekend to the end of the weekend is remarkable. I've suddenly, after many of these, I finally put words to it. That's what the scriptures mean when they say there was a change of countenance. The light is flowing, there's just a difference in them. And then we encourage them and give them tools to maintain that which. There will be a dip. That's inevitable. You're in a peak experience, the dip's going to come, but hopefully because it's Christ based and with these tools it can be a softer landing than not.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Love it. We'll obviously put all the links and information in the show notes, but maybe tell us, what do you have coming up at this point?

[Alan Downing]

Well, we've got two retreats coming up in September, a men's and a women's, and that's pretty true of every September. And we do facilitation training as well. So I've got that training coming up in August because we're an all volunteer organization so we want to train men and women so that they can continue this and we can grow it but from a. Yeah, developing our own so there's opportunity for growth. And if there's a community that we're developing, it's a community of facilitators and healers. So yeah, we this these upcoming retreats. Yeah, I do a monthly group in Provo called Man Talk at the Library so they can find out about that. But regarding these upcoming retreats, they're in Smithfield. Good food, airbnb or VRBO style, so you get a nice bed and comfortable environment, but challenging as well.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Really good. All right, well definitely linked all that and appreciate just these thoughts. And this is one of those episodes where it's again, you need several days to really unpack some of these concepts.

[Marianne Downing]

Right?

[Alan Downing]

Yeah.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

But we did our best in this hour here. But what final encouragement would you give to individuals as they consider identity and especially those who are maybe in that identity crisis? Any final thoughts?

[Marianne Downing]

Just to say one of my favorite scriptures is in DNC50 about the growing light that grows brighter and brighter until that birth perfect day is that I think just keep looking to the light and let us keep knowing that that's a journey and that it's okay that I'm not all the way there yet, that one day I will be full of that light. But I need to know that it's a journey. It's a long time journey. I'm still there. I want to be still knowing who I am to my very last breath.

[Alan Downing]

Yeah. And it's a fun journey. Yeah, it's fun to constantly be exploring. I guess the one what I would say is at the end of the day you can't have a we until you have a me. And whether that's as a couple, as a community, as a family. What makes God's plan, in my opinion so remarkable is as we are social beings on a solitary journey and so we have to hold that tension together. Knowing I can't do it without you. And yet I stand before the Lord at the last days alone, that transition through the veil. I'm there alone with him. So I have to hold both of those tensions in my hand. And that's why it's important not to neglect me because ultimately it's in the service of we.

[Host (Leading Saints)]

Hey, you made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good? You know, I tend to pinch myself that this is what I get to do? I get to sit down with some remarkable people across the world, Experts, everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and have such an impactful conversation. I hope you'll share it, drop it into text message and email and share it to someone who maybe came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes. So don't stop with this episode. I mean, you're not done with the

dishes or mowing the lawn or working

out, so you might as well keep it going at the bottom of those show notes and make sure you listen to each one maybe a couple times

on a few of them.

[Historical Church Leader (quoted)]

It came as a result of the position of leadership, which was important, imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, a loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.