Creating Community for Young Married Couples | June Leading Saints Live

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Creating Community for Young Married Couples | June Leading Saints Live

Leading Saints Podcast – June 12, 2026
Host: Kurt Francom (Leading Saints)
Episode Focus: Helping Latter-day Saints Be Better Prepared to Lead

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Episode Overview

This June’s “Zion Lab Live” explores how church leaders and communities can more effectively support young married couples and foster a sense of Zion—connection, belonging, and spiritual purpose—among them. Host Kurt Francom reads from a recent forum post about the unique faith and social transitions this group faces and facilitates live discussion featuring practical examples, key challenges, and ideas from leaders in the field. The episode also delves into other current community conversations, including the pros and cons of Mother’s Day church traditions and approaches to making church intellectually and spiritually satisfying for all.

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1. The Young Married Adult Experience

Key Discussion:

• Transition Challenges for Young Married Couples ([05:15])
  • Kurt’s Observations from Forum Post:
    • Post-mission and post-YSA structure give way to a less connected, more “optional” approach to church and friendships.
    • Many drift or become apathetic toward traditional church practices and are hesitant to take on callings.
    • Loss of prior YSA-style social life: Focus narrows onto the new “starter family,” often leading to isolation and a lack of adult friendships, especially among men.
    • The role of scrolling culture and streaming as a social replacement is “socially devastating.”
    • Adding children tends to entrench these trends.
  • Quote:
    “They go from a high social life experience in a YSA group to a very insular and much less social one... The no friends trend begins, especially for men.”
    (Kurt Francom, 05:15)

Solutions in Practice

• Example: Southwest Wyoming Activities Committee ([07:37])
  • Nathan (Bishop): Created an activities committee focused on young married couples, organizing regular social events (e.g., barbecues, dancing, playdates).
  • Specific invitations, tailored groupings, and flexibility (“If 60-year-olds want to join, let them!”) make all feel welcome, while maintaining the social focus.
  • Positive outcomes:
    • Greater social connection and retention for those less comfortable at church
    • Outreach to less-active members and non-members
    • Encourages “devout” family discussions before marriage and during interviews
  • Quote:
    “For the most part... the primary focus has been on these young married couples, and it's really created some connectivity. We've got some people that aren't comfortable coming to church, but yet we're getting them to come to these activities.”
    (Nathan, 08:48)

Practical Takeaways

• Specific invitations, a separate focus on “young marrieds” socials, and ongoing, varied activities can bridge the social gap and spark engagement beyond Sunday worship.
• Open, pre-marital conversations about spiritual goals and devotion can head off future disengagement.
• The role of ministering in creating “friend groups” among young couples was highlighted as an important support for this demographic.

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2. Realities and Shifts in Church Engagement

Importance of Structure, “Optional” Participation & Devotional Practice ([13:44])

• Listener Voice (Erica):

  • Describes transition to marriage as “very awkward; everything outside of work, marriage and family is optional, including the church.”
  • Even with strong testimonies, structure evaporates post-sealing; church callings are often the main reason for attending all meetings.
  • Quote:
    “We would most likely skip out on second hour if it weren’t for our callings.”
    (Erica, 13:47)

• Group Discussion:

  • The sudden drop-off of structured programs after the “pinnacle” of temple marriage leads many to treat faith practices as optional.
  • Younger generations sometimes view mission or temple marriage as an “expiration point” for gospel engagement ([16:27]).

• Challenges for Church Leaders:

  • Navigating individual shifts in religious practices, such as garment wearing, that can spark tension or uncertainty in marriages.
  • General frustration with second-hour meetings that feel repetitive or unengaging, potentially leading to increased absenteeism.

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3. Building an Inclusive Community

Newborns and Greater Inclusion ([20:06])

• Young couples with infants (“one and under club”) often find commonality, but both men and women can struggle with connection.
• Playdates and church events provide small but significant opportunities for integrating young families.

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4. Community Conversation: Mother’s Day at Church

Survey Results and Open Debate ([23:27])

• Kurt’s Community Survey:

  • 643 respondents, predominantly women.
  • 73% believe Mother’s Day efforts at church should center on “all women” rather than “mothers only.”
  • Only 42% believe a gift should be given; 30% say no; 28% undecided ([24:52]).

• Qualitative Insights:

  • Strong negative reactions to “pedestalizing” and idealizing mothers; these traditions can be isolating for women without children or with difficult familial experiences.

  • General consensus to keep sacrament meetings Christ-centered, only briefly recognizing women’s contributions.

  • Preferred “gifts” are low-pressure (simple chocolates/flowers, Christ-centered quotes), and many favor men taking over primary/youth classes so women can connect.

  • Quote:
    “If Mother's Day wasn't mentioned on that day, I think most would be happier. I know many women who don't come to church on that day because they either lost their mother, they didn't like their mother, they aren't a mother, you name it.”
    (Listener, 26:47)

  • Counterpoint:
    “Do we really...govern the church by exception to everything? Like if two people hate a thing, does that mean we have to not do that thing anymore?”
    (John, 30:33)

• Innovative Tradition:

  • Color-coded boutonniere flowers for everyone based on whether their mother is living or has passed—encourages private honor, prompts gentle conversations, and avoids overt programming ([33:50]).

• Heavenly Mother Discussion:

  • Noted absence of Heavenly Mother as a theme, even on Mother’s Day, is painful for some women ([36:34]).

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5. Intellectual & Spiritual Fulfillment at Church

The “Intellectual Engagement” Dilemma ([37:38])

• Forum Prompt:

  • “Many are disengaging not because they don't care about faith, but because church experience has become intellectually, relationally, and spiritually empty.”
    – Nathan Tolman reads from Jeff Strong, author of 'Torn'

• Key Tension:

  • Is the purpose of church to provide information/intellectual enrichment, or to facilitate connection and spiritual experience?

• Group Insights:

  • Some, especially “advanced learners,” crave depth, context, and real doctrinal discussion ([47:00]).

  • Others feel church is unique as a place for testimony, support, and connection.

  • Overly “intellectual” discussion can silence some and make them self-conscious; “surface level” lessons are also frustrating.

  • Lay ministry’s varied teacher skills add unpredictability.

  • The “right balance” might be brief doctrinal enrichment, followed by wide sharing of lived experiences to allow more voices and invite the Spirit.

  • Quote:
    “I always wanted to add that into my teaching ... what’s missing for me in Sunday school is that I don’t get intellectually stimulated. ... But I came to find out ... it was more important to have people sharing their experiences...and that testimony brings the spirit into that room.”
    (John, 47:00)

  • Teaching Tip:
    "First thing I do is write ‘think’ on the board, then cross it out—because I want to hear what you know and have experienced, not just what you think."
    (Sean, 55:32)

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6. Additional Community Hot Topics

(Host briefly lists other lively Zion Lab forum threads to check out:)

• “Converted to the Church or to Christ?”
• “If an apostle’s statement contradicts the Handbook, which wins?”
• “Do you use a separate email for your calling?”
• “How did your 5th Sunday Constitution discussion go?”

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7. The Zion Lab Invitation & Wrap-Up

• The host encourages all listeners to join the Zion Lab online community—either as a subscriber or through donor sponsorship (no one turned away).
• Key feature: the “AI Clerk” can help members find best practices by searching the entire Leading Saints content archive for targeted questions—innovative for leadership and lesson planning.
• Upcoming episodes and continued conversations teased for July.

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• “The no friends trend begins, especially for men.” (Kurt, 05:15)
• “We would most likely skip out on second hour if it weren’t for our callings.” (Erica, 13:47)
• “For the most part... the primary focus has been on these young married couples, and it’s really created some connectivity.” (Nathan, 08:48)
• “If Mother's Day wasn't mentioned on that day, I think most would be happier.” (Listener, 26:47)
• “Do we really...govern the church by exception to everything? ... I really think we are in a tyranny of the minority in the church these days...” (John, 30:33)
• “What’s missing for me … is that I don’t get intellectually stimulated … But I came to learn ... it was more important to have people sharing their experiences that bring in the Spirit.” (John, 47:00)
• “Let’s not pontificate ... let’s really dial in and find out what you can testify of. That’s a much more enriching conversation.” (Sean, 55:32)

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Conclusion

This “Zion Lab Live” exposed both pain points and possibilities in nourishing young married adults, designing inclusive church celebrations, and making meetings meaningful for Latter-day Saints of all backgrounds. Hands-on solutions, honest debate, and a commitment to connection and spiritual growth—rather than perfection—form the heart of building true community and preparing people to lead.

For more conversation or resources, visit Zion Lab at leadingsaints.org/zion.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Lab Live for the month of June 2026. We have some people file in here, a live studio audience coming in. And now this is. We. We record this live. I. Then I'll push it to the podcast feed as well. Just so individuals, you know, I think a lot of times people get used to just listening to the podcast feed and they're just waiting, waiting for the weekly episode to, to get published. And they don't realize the party that's going on over at Zion Lab. Now, those of you not familiar, Zion Lab is an online community that we've developed over the last few years. Kind of like a social media for church leaders. It sounds like a party, doesn't it? But basically, people are coming in there, they're posting questions, thoughts, sharing best practices, resources. Hey, we did this on Sunday. Hey, how'd that go on Sunday? Or what activities are you doing? And it's just a, it's a landing place for church leaders and Zion builders alike. So I like to get on here. Every first Friday, we do a live stream called Zion Lab Live, where we hit on some of the topics that we explored in the past month. So basically we're looking at all of May here and, and we'll maybe talk about things in the last few days as well. So got a good group here listening in. It's always good to have individuals joining us and those of you that are tuning in live and those listening to this delayed. It's crucial that you understand just what is available in the Zion Lab experience. There is no excuse for anybody to not be a Zion Builder. Now, what is a Zion Builder? That is an individual who's taken steps to have access to the entire library available and all the features available in Zion Lab. And so there's two ways to do this. One, you go to Zion Lab in the menu area, you scroll to the bottom and find become a Zion Builder. And you either pay $15 a month, which goes to helping the cause of Leading Saints, and all the, the podcasts, the, the community, all things we do, or we have donors behind the scenes that have stepped up and say, hey, listen, we don't want cost to be an issue for anybody if they cannot afford 15amonth. So you click the sponsorship option and you'll just get everything that anybody gets, even if they paid to the sponsorship. So seriously, no excuses there. And the biggest reason to be a Zion builder is the AI clerk. In my opinion, the AI clerk is phenomenal. We, we are constantly putting all past archives of Leading Saints into Zion Lab so that when you ask the AI a question about, hey, I need some ideas of how to run girls camp or what are some best practices for a primary presentation and sacramenting.

[C]

Right?

[B]

It will then go through and find those specific episodes. Or if there was an episode we did on something not related, but we somehow suddenly, you know, took a went on a tangent and spent 10 minutes talking about something specific that maybe isn't related to the greater episode, it will still find that. So that's why everybody should become a Zion builder. And there's again, no reason you shouldn't be. All right, this can be a hour or so long monologue of just me talking about different concepts or love to have you participate as well. So let's see, where did I want to start here? I think I want to start with this one. Let me share my screen. This is a post. I actually posted this four days ago. It shows and it's about this concept of the faith or social journey of young married adults. Let me share my screen here for those watching. Here it is. All right, so this is a post I just had a thought that came to me around this concept of young married adults. I actually went to lunch with a stake president last week and he's a stake president, I think he says there's only eight of these stakes in the world and most of them are in Provo, Utah. And that is a young married steak. So I think he has said he's over about 11 wards as a stake president and they are completely young married, you know, adults. So obviously individuals who are going to married couples who are one of them or both of them are attending byu. So very active, you know, his numbers, all numbers as far as activity are in the 90s, right? Very unique word. So we talked about this concept of the young married adult experience. There's so much emphasis on young single adults. There's so much emphasis on youth. Sometimes this transition becomes a little tricky for individuals as they marry, which obviously we love when that happens. But they also start a new life.

[D]

Right?

[B]

So I'll just read real quick this post here. I said and well, I'll mention this in the post. I say I I'm in a ward with a high percentage of young married couples. I still feel like I am in this demographic. And then I have to remind myself that I I've been married for over 20 years. I've been discussing with others who have experienced leading young married couples in the church and I have gathered a few observations. These may be completely incorrect, but I'd love to hear your perspective Number one, the transition into marriage leaves them consciously, subconsciously deciding how devout they intend to be as a couple or family. Many seem to drift with their faith or become apathetic with traditional church attendance and practices. Few have an interest in engaging in a church calling. Number two, the second observation. They go from a high social life experience in a YSA group to a very insular and much less social one. They seem to triple down on focusing on their immediate starter family and resist informal formal social gatherings. This is where the no friend or observation three, this is where the no friends trend begins, especially for men. They are transitioning out of single friend groups and those friendships now feel awkward as they are at different stages of life. They have created. They, they haven't created many married friendships and find it difficult to do so. Then fourth observation scrolling Culture is socially devastating. Modern social media and streaming culture zaps the desire for social connection. After a long day at work, it seems most inviting to cuddle up on the couch with your spouse, turn on one of the unlimited options of streaming services and doom scroll while the movie or show plays. It's numbing, but it's. But life is stressful. And then the last observation, adding a child to their family only entrenches all of the above. And I ask, what else have you noticed about this demographic in our faith community? What am I getting wrong? So those are some observation. I'll share some of the comments. If there's anybody listening live who wants to raise your hand and participate, give your thoughts on this and we'll have a little discussion for a few minutes before we move on to another concept. Nathan, go ahead. Are you able to unmute?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm a bishop in southwest Wyoming, small ranching community. And we, we are very old ward, yet some of our older ranches are, are dying off. Some of their younger young married couples are coming in. And what we, we decided to do as a ward is we created an activities committee that was centered around young, young married couples. And it has been, it's been magic. Like Saturday night they're going to do a barbecue and skeet shooting. And we've, we're asking them to try to have an activity every four to six weeks. We have the young moms getting together once a week for a playdate type thing. But that's this young activities committee. I really feel like it has been an answer to a lot of the points that were brought up there. So that's one idea that I think is something that could help with that.

[B]

Yeah, so let Me, I'm curious just how you've. If you've done anything specific to formulate this. I mean, are they specifically only for these couples? Like, you have age group or

[C]

age

[B]

limits as far as who can attend or. Yeah, so it's.

[D]

It got a little trick. It gets a little tricky because some of our, you know, I'm 50 and my wife's like, are we invited? I said, you know, I. I feel like I'm young at heart, right? Like, let's. Let's go play with the kids. But it's, you know, they've kind of transitioned that they kind of feel welcome at any age. But we've encouraged it to young families, Right. So we've given specific invites. But then we also have a handful of our. Just our. Our older singles that, you know, now they're. Same thing. They're out of ysa, and what do we do and what's available for us? And so we've, from time to time, we will invite them, but for the most part, like last month, they did dancing, so we brought in a dance instructor. So it was a date night with your wife. It was. They brought in dinner and had some dance instruction. And so we'll let anyone come, but the primary focus has been on these young married couples, and it's really created some connectivity. We've got some people that aren't comfortable coming to church, but yet we're getting them to come to these activities. We have some non members in the ward that are finding out, hey, you guys, are you doing a barbecue thing? Is this like a neighborhood type deal? Of course it's a neighborhood type thing, right? Anybody and everybody's welcome. So it's turning into missionary opportunities. We're seeing folks that aren't comfortable at church coming. So it's growing and evolving. It was the inspiration of a new Relief Society president that said, hey, I feel like this is something that's missing, these younger kids. And then the other point that I wanted to make is discussing, you know, when kids come in for their interview to be sealed and talking to them, have you guys talked about how devout you want to be? How do you want to serve together? How are you to support each other and raising those questions that maybe they haven't talked about before. And I think that's another thing that sometimes they just don't know what they don't know until they're in the middle of it. And then it's, well, how do you want to do this and how do you want to do it? You know, So I Think if we can head it off ahead of time and ask those good leading questions even before it. It's helped a bunch with them being excited about accepting callings and seeing their spouse as somebody.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I want to support them. I hope they grow. I hope they have leadership opportunities. So that was another thing that we're trying to do is as leaders in our ward.

[B]

Yeah. So some are asking when you say you, you. You give specific invit invites, like what do you mean by specific? Are you calling these young married couple activities or.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep, yep.

[D]

Young married activities is what we're calling them.

[B]

And obviously 60 year old couple shows up. You're not running them off. They're.

[D]

No, they want. Yeah. If they want to feel young at heart, then let them come play with the kids. So.

[B]

And probably just the nature of the activities it sounds like you're doing. I mean maybe they're more active or whatever that group.

[D]

Right, that's exactly right. They're kind of segregated themselves and it's, it's just been really, it's been a really powerful thing so far in our ward implementing that. And we still have a, we still have an activities committee that's doing with several big activities through the course of the year. They're in charge of some of Our linger longers, 4th of July type stuff. Christmas, Halloween, different activities. But these are just specifically focusing on this transition period because I agree there's a point where you feel a little bit lost and who are my friends? And it's, it's just, it's been a, it's been a great.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

A great addition to our awards.

[B]

That's very cool. Yeah, go ahead, John.

[E]

Is that just a calendar announcement? Is it just like a written in the bulletin you're invited to come or is it a conversation? How does that work? And by the way, kudos. I didn't think there were activities in the church anymore.

[C]

So.

[D]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's both. So we are, we're sending out specific invites and we're now I announce it from the pulpit. We announce it in relief Society and elders quorum and then for those that are not attending, they just send a nice little invite directly to their home. I've encouraged them to mail them, use a Facebook page asking ministers to go drop them off. We've tried to create ministering groups that those that age group is more supporting each other. That's the other thing I asked of our elders club and release society presidencies is make sure that they're creating a friend Group next month, we're going to ask them. They're all going to go down to a Bees game. We're an hour away from Salt Lake, so they're all going to travel down and go to a Bees game together. But it's, I think it's just mostly the social aspect, friendship, relationship that they need.

[B]

Yeah, really good. I love that. I'm glad you spoke up, Nathan. That's. That's inspiring one. And I'll share my screen again here. I want to share this comment. I thought this was insightful by Erica. She says as a newlywed, married.

[A]

Most.

[B]

Most married.

[E]

Most.

[F]

Sorry.

[B]

Married almost a year now. The transition is very awkward. Since being married, I feel like everything outside of work, marriage and family is optional, including the church. Things like friends and church are marked as optional because marriage is so new and so important that it takes precedence over everything. We hold the gospel near and dear to our hearts. My husband and I often have deep conversations about various gospel topics with one another. However, despite having such strong testimonies, we would most likely skip out on second hour if it were for. If it weren't for our callings as young women's president and executive ward secretary. When you become married, you are taking two different individuals with different thoughts and ideas and merging them together, which is hard during this time. We become fluid in our ways as we learn how to become one, which makes us vulnerable and more susceptible to Satan's lies. I thought that was just interesting way to frame it. I kind of feel that at times as, as far as this, you know, this hyper focus on family, kind of this new entity that's, that's been created and these other things feel optional and it's easier to just opt out rather than to stay engaged, even if there's sort of a conviction or a testimony, those types of things.

[C]

Right.

[E]

We go right from the pinnacle experience in the church of being sealed.

[B]

Right.

[E]

And then we have conversations about, well, maybe we'll go to church after, maybe we won't anymore. I mean, that seems really weird to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

How. How am I gonna. I, I'm. I just got sealed. I just reached the pinnacle of, of, you know, the ordinances in the church. And, you know, like, yeah, I'll just go do that. That seems crazy to me. I really don't.

[B]

Well, and this came up, I think. John, you mentioned this in the comments. As far as this idea of, like, there's so much structure up to this point, you know, from the, the youth experience. Then you leave the youth experience and you go right into a mission experience, you know, that's obviously hyper structured. And then you come out of the mission experience and you're sort of have somewhat of a like, then it's more of like the social experience with, with young single or YSA wards. Right. And then that's when it kind of stops. You get sealed. Like I said, the pinnacle of the ordinances. We have immortality. And then it's like, like the structure just gone. It's sort of up to you. And then everything kind of falls in this like Eric's referencing this optional category, which is interesting. Chad, go ahead.

[A]

So in my experience, there's more and

[C]

more

[A]

older youth that are living the gospel until a certain time, meaning I'll prepare, go on a mission. But then after my mission I'm going to remove the garment or I'm going to. So there's more and more people that are just. It's kind of what they're doing now and later they'll, they'll move on from it. I wonder if that might be a little bit of that attitude.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And that's, you know, serving as an elder corn president right now and having so many of these young married couples in my ward. I've, on numerous occasions I've sort of had a similar conversation with men in my quorum where, you know, here they are like return missionaries. They've, they've had two years to really dive into the gospel. The majority of these, you know, as far as these couples, the men, you know, typically are the ones that have served the mission. And they said, you know, I'm not sure how to navigate this. Where this is a, a couple or a family is very active. They're there every Sunday. But you know, one, a couple elders have sort of mentioned to me, yeah, so my wife just stopped wearing the garment. And so it wasn't like a conversation. And, and again, it's not like, it's just sort of this, this, that a marker of like, okay, where are we headed with this? And they don't know what to do with it. Right. Do you know, they don't want to like, obviously make it a big thing or like you want to, you know, make it black and white. Like, well, you either wear the garment or I'm out or anything.

[F]

Right.

[B]

It's just these things where they maybe have a deeper conviction of that part of. And this can go for either, either party in the, in the couple.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But sort of these shifts in faith practice that happen and they're like, well, I guess I'll just go with the flows to kind of keep the peace.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So Kurt. Yeah, go ahead.

[A]

A little bit more. So after serving in church leadership for close to 20 years, I will be honest, it's hard to go to church, especially the second hour because it's the same second hour. Like there's no. And I wish I give the brother in Wyoming credit. Like I wish there was something that beyond like in, at least in my area, like church sports is gone there. There's nothing else to draw me to church other than my covenants with my Savior. And that second hour of just sitting there and getting either someone's podcast regurgitated back to me or they're, they're just, there's not a lot of life in that second hour or after Sunday. At least that's what I'm seeing.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's interesting. And it'll be. I, I'm intrigued by how the, the shift in, in word culture will happen. As you know, September 6th comes with the, the 25 minute classes. Will that, will that the mindset should shift to oh well, you know, it's just 25. Maybe we'll just stay for the second, the second block. Just 25 minutes or you know, just 25 minutes. What are we really missing?

[C]

Right.

[B]

So I don't know if it'll be exasperate the sort of the exodus after sacramenting or, or draw people in. Be interesting to see. John says here in our ward we have a number of young married couples and couples with one child like a newborn, while the rest of the ward are mature families with teenagers or retirees. The young couples can find themselves feeling isolated, just like there's an empty nest for the mature couples with no children at home. There is a one and under club for young married or only who only have a baby as they are in the similar group.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

I think there is sort of a benefit that comes from starting to have children where you start to connect or you know, the play dates or you're, you're suddenly looking at the same dad in the, in the foyer, you know, as during sacrament meeting or whatever. Right. It does create a connection point and I would say even for I, I, I, I, I don't really know but I'm guessing for the, for the women more than the men is maybe the women are at home more and they're looking for play dates or connection that way or so. But interesting insight for sure. All right. I don't want to spend the entire time on this, so I know that this probably is an early time to move on from this topic. But hey, guess what? You can keep on with this conversation by going to Zion Lab and, and reading the comment. How many comments are on this thing? There are currently 16 different comments. And it's a great discussion, really insightful perspective shared there. So that's, that is a place to go. The next place I wanted to go is because I want to talk about Mother's Day and there's a post here. Let me get to the post. But we just had Mother's Day a few weeks ago, obviously in, in May and you know, there's mixed, mixed experiences here. It is with Mother's Day and I actually did a decent survey which I'll share with you here some of that. But here's a post by Caleb. He says happy Mother's Day to all the mothers out there. Every year the question comes up in ward council, what should we do for Mother's Day? I've seen flowers, chocolates, cake, pie, cupcakes. Some options are. Are easier. Some options like more take more time than others. I've also seen sacrament cut short to hand out flower pots. Two hour cut short to distribute pie or just a baggie of chocolates handed out at the door on the way out. I love Mother's Day. If there's any single group of humans in the world that deserve special recognition, it's definitely mothers. How do we show our appreciation without causing too much drama, without distracting from sacred ordinances and worshiping God without creating undue burdens? How and when do we distribute what is a token of gratitude for Mother's Day? Do we even dare consider eliminating this tradition altogether? How dare he speak such thing Asking for a friend. We'll take a vote here. Yeah. Turns out I've done some deep research. Turns out we still worship Jesus on Sunday. So I don't know. Or on Mother's Day. So that's something to consider. But any, anybody have a thought or perspective or want to comment how your Mother's Day went or observations you had there? Nathan says this this year I asked my wife and my counselor's wife to speak to the to highlight how women in the scriptures teach us and exemplify the life. The Savior. Love that. It's a great approach. Let me, let me find the, the survey because I, I took this survey with the intent of.

[F]

Oops.

[B]

With the intent of sharing this before leading up to it. But we'll have this ongoing and because I got. We got the results. 643 respondents. Okay, let me share my screen. So you know, the majority of respondents were female. And I, I did this in a way of asking kind of, what do they call that? Qualitative answers, so that then AI could read through them all and whatever. But here's the basic questions. What best describes you and your personal situation? I said member of a bishopric, Member of ward council, not bishopric. Married to the bishopric or ward council member. None of the above. So the 400 or so of the. The 643 were not in leadership, which is great. In your view, who should Mother's Day efforts at church primarily focus on, if anyone? The question was women with dependent children, all women, mothers only, no specific focus other. And by far, 468 of those 600 plus said all women. All right. And then responses for others. You see, it's all Jesus Christ, right?

[D]

Children.

[B]

Okay, interesting. But as I scroll here as far as they could type in an other response, and it's all others got a heavenly mother in there. All right, Jesus. Jesus, Jesus Christ. So, yeah, interesting for sure. And then do you believe ward should give a Mother's Day gift to women in the ward? 200, let's see, 42% said yes, 30% said no, and 28% were undecided. If word leaders decided they. They would give some kind of Mother's Day gift, what type of gift do you think would be most appropriate, if any? Oh, this one I did. I plugged it into AI to give me the. I'll see if I can find that in a minute. Then I asked, how do you feel about having Mother's Day themed during sacramenting, if at all? They wrote out that response. What is a meaningful Mother's Day gift or tradition you have seen award do, if any. And then if you were responsible for planning your Mother's Day efforts, what would you do, if any? So let me. Here, I'll plug that in here as we, as we get, as we talk here. But any, Any other thoughts on Mother's Day or observations you made or how you keep it focused on Christ? But I mean, do you feel because of Hallmark they have to make some sort of connection to Mother's Day? Maybe if you're out of the United States, this is all just a. A silly, a silly tradition. But I think most countries have Mother's Day, right. It may not be on the same day, but anyways, yeah. Any thoughts on that? Anybody want to raise your hand and share or love to hear it even what you did, good or bad or ugly?

[A]

I'll come in with a hot take,

[B]

Kurt, and let's hear it.

[A]

Based on what I know of the people in my stake, if Mother's Day wasn't mentioned on that day, I think most would be happier. I know many women who don't come to church on that day because they either lost their mother, they didn't like their mother, they aren't a mother, you name it. I know women who don't come because they feel they were a terrible mother. They don't like the emphasis on motherhood. I know women who aren't mothers like, I, I just, I think for some reason there's a golden calf that we need to kill. I love mothers. I love my mother. I love your mom, Kurt.

[B]

Yeah, we do share the same mother. For those that can't recognize how much our voices sound alike.

[E]

But anyways.

[A]

But I just, I think it just. So one day it takes us off of the Savior and focuses on, yes, mothers are important, but please, I don't want to. But I don't go to church to worship my mother. I go to church to worship my Savior and feel redeemed. And that's. So that's my hot take. If it sticks around, I'm happy. But it seems like it's a tradition somewhere. Someone said, hey, this is a. I think this would be a great idea. And if you've ever read Boyd K. Packer, he says that's the. If anything ever starts with, hey, I've got an idea, kill it.

[B]

Good old, good old Elder Packer, you know, bless his heart. That's awesome.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

And I say if someone has. I have an idea. I'd say, okay, tell me more. All right, let me show you. I just plugged this into perplexity here. Let's see what we can. We can learn. So sacramenting theme across roles, including bishoprics and such. There is a strong pushback against a full Mother's Day sacrament meeting that drifts into my perfect mom storytelling or pedestalizing. I dare you to use that word sometime today. Pedestalizing women. Many insist sacraments should remain Christ centered with any discussion of women framed as how women mothers lead us to Christ or what we learn of the Savior from his interaction with women. Some like a modest Mother's Day theme, especially when it emphasizes women in the scriptures. Has youth speak briefly about how women have influenced them. Includes music from primary rather than long idolizing mother eulogies. I mean, you gotta have the primary thing right? I mean that's. That should be. That should be core doctrine for sure. High tension point sacrament talks that idealize mothers or present motherhood as the pinnacle of womanhood are repeatedly named as harmful to women without children, those with trauma or feeling inadequate. I would say generally our culture's made a pretty good shift. Of course there's always outliers but anyways, what women actually like second hour. This is remarkably consistent power about the second hour. Strong recurring desires. Men cover primary and youth classes. I think that's pretty typical. All women meet together. The favorite formats, a simple brunch, lunch, dessert bar, retreat table with time to visit a short Christ centered or women affirming message then social time sometimes nor formal lesson at all. Just let's us be together. John, do you wanna, you wanna go ahead?

[E]

I was just gonna, I was just gonna say I in that first section you were talking about how these women pedestalize things. I almost think that this is a trauma that people have suffered. Like one time in their life it happened to them. I don't think I've seen a women eulogized church talk on Mother's Day in decades, like decades. And I, I almost think that like if it happened one time, then it's this huge problem in the church and now I'm going to bring it up everywhere for 40 years I'm going to bring up this one thing that happened to me 20 years ago. It just seems so crazy to me. But I don't know, I, I tend to think that having a talk that isn't specifically about Jesus doesn't mean that I'm not there to worship my Savior and my heavenly parents. I, I can, I can sing a hymn that is the Star Spangled Banner on the week of July 4th and still understand worshiping the right thing. You know, I, I don't understand the association that says gosh, if we're going to do that, then I'm not even going to go because that's, that's not even worshiping. I, I don't understand it. And that's a personal failing probably because I don't have the grace for other people. But at some point do we really. Are we going to govern the church by exception to everything? Like if two people hate a thing, does that mean we have to not do that thing anymore? Because I, I really think that we are in a tyranny of the minority in the church these days, trying not to offend one or two people where we've eliminated practically everything that's fun about the church. Yeah, I don't know. Just a thought.

[B]

No, great thought. Really good. Let's. We'll look at these last few questions here. So as far as I'm not sure what questions Emotional and pastoral themes the qualitative response are rich and intense. Major themes Pain and avoidance. Many women say they skip church on Mother's Day because it is the hardest Sunday of the year. Traumatizing. There's that word John. Or awkward and weird and sometimes painful. Triggers include infertility, childlessness, stained relationships with mothers, grief and feeling a failure as a parent comparison and guilt. I think these are pretty self explanatory. Reclusivity versus pedestalizing Christ centered framely strong desire for messages about daughters of God Valiant women and women in the scriptures anchor in the Savior. Some explicitly long for respectful doctrinal careful references to heavenly mother is part of the healing expensive theology of women. Okay, let's see. Justin says Jesus is everywhere. We just have to include him in the conversation. He is the center of the conversation, not the only part of it. Whether it's mother or whether, whether it's Mother's Day or Independence Day, Jesus is in all of it.

[C]

Great.

[B]

What groups would like what this group would likely design Sacrament meeting Core focus Jesus Christ and his relationship with women Avoiding a mom's only theme and avoid idolizing checklists involving youth and primary music. I think that's pretty standard. Second hour have men cover the primary. Offer simple but thoughtful brunch lunch or treat with plenty of time to talk and connect. Include a short gentle message about the divine worth and needed contribution of women as disciples, not just as mothers. Gift optional small and low pressure quality chocolate, a simple flower or a Christ centered quote. Avoid gifts that require care or feel cheap Obligatory tone Explicitly acknowledge the feeling in diverse circumstances. Avoid standing up if you're a mother moments are or anything that sort of women publicly buy status. Okay, well there you have it. We will hopefully I can put together a similar survey for Father's Day. I wonder what we learned there. I think it's a little bit more low key which speaking as a father, I don't necessarily mind but. Oh, the one thing I just keep going back this, this was years ago when I did a survey like this probably 10 plus years ago and somebody shared an idea. I thought it was like genius and like just hit the right spot. Basically the idea was to go out and get, get very basic boutonniere type flowers, right? Get some that are white and some that are yellow or red. And for everybody that shows up to church you ask them is your mother living or, or has she passed on? And if they're living they get a, a red rose. If they've passed on it's white. I forget exactly the colors, but I'm sure there's certain meaning in flowers. And everybody's walking around sort of in this passive honor of their mother. And you have typical church, go about your classes, but it suddenly sparks conversations like, oh, I see your mother's passed on. Tell me about her. Or, you know, where does your mother live? Right. I think it's like just this, just passive enough to hit the tone of honoring the mothers in our lives without making it like this, the theme and kind of this, this programmer around it. So interesting stuff. Is there anybody else moving on from this, this topic, is there anybody else who would want to highlight a certain post in Zion Lab in the last month that stood out for others or. Sean, go ahead.

[F]

Yeah, it's actually kind of relevant to the last post that you just had. But I, I think I, I find a lot of women that really struggle with this concept of our Heavenly mother. So we, we know we have a heavenly mother. We know that she's an exalted being. We know that she's, you know, from, from our doctrine. She's equal and a helpmate to our Heavenly Father. And we talk a lot about Jesus, we talk a lot about our Heavenly Father, but we don't really talk about our Heavenly Mother. And on this very precious day, like Mother's Day, that's where we're exalt. We're, you know, we're exalting our mothers. You hear very little about our Heavenly Mother. And I think for a lot of women out there, that's just, that's really hard because we do talk a lot about our Heavenly Father and how grateful we are for him, but we don't kind of show that same love and respect for our Heavenly mother. So I don't, I don't know if that leads too much further in any direction, but it's just kind of an observation that I've had.

[B]

Awesome. Really helpful. Good stuff. All right, so I wanted to. Here's one post from Nathan Tolman about intellectual engagement. So he says, I've started reading Torn by Jeff Strong, which we've had on the podcast several times. If you haven't listened to those, it's worth a listen. And we have one more episode with him. There'll be a released here in a week or two. The following in the indirect introduction struck me. Many of our members are leaving or quietly disengaging, not because they do. They no longer care about faith or the church, but because they're live. Their lived experience in the church has for them become intellectually, relationally, and spiritually empty. That's the end of the quote. The Doctrine Covenants teaches the glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth. Doctrine Covenants 96 and the Intelligence and knowledge have eternal implications. It says in in Doctrine Covenants 130. Whatever principle or intelligence we attain unto this life, it will arise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. End quote. How can we make our lessons more intellectually engaging, especially given the time restraint in the new schedule starting in September? What can we do as teachers and leaders to help our people, including ourselves, to be intellectually full and satisfied rather than empty? All right, anybody want to jump jump in with their, their perspective here. I can read some comments, but I think this is the, this hits on a really important, I don't know, misunderstanding or some diversity of opinion in the churches. And it goes back to the core question of why do we go to church? Obviously, our, you know, intelligence as it talks about doctrine covenants, you know, it is, you know, we're, that is part of our mortal experience is to gain intelligence, to gain knowledge. And we've been promised that that knowledge will be, you know, will, will transfer with us into eternity.

[F]

Right?

[B]

So, however, is church meant to be that place to gain that intelligence, or is there another reason? And I would just say, like, I think, I think some people attempt to show up to church with the hope of gaining intelligence and more often than not ends in a very frustrated state or that pushes them into a cynical state of, you know, why aren't our teachers better? Or and we glaze over the point that, oh, you know, we have a lay ministry and so some wards have really good teachers, others don't. Some wards have good teachers for a while and then they get called elsewhere where they're not teaching as much.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Or I've even seen ward I sometimes where we hyper focus on the really experienced teacher. I mean, how many Seminary Institute guys do you meet who are also gospel doctrine teachers on Sunday?

[C]

Right.

[B]

Which is great. But not every ward is blessed with those types of teachers, right. So I love this. Another part of the Zion Lab is it gives you. AI will summarize all the comments. So there's 23 comments on this, and I don't think I meant to hit that anyway. So the conversation summary says the discussion centers on how to make church lessons more intellectually engaging while Balancing spiritual and relational needs. Participants debate the role of scripture understanding, teaching methods, and the purpose of Sunday school, with some emphasizing intellectual development and others prioritizing connection and spiritual experience. The challenge of addressing diverse needs within limited class time and curriculum constrain constraints is also highlighted. So I would say that. Did Kurt just say lame ministries? Only in my case.

[F]

Jared.

[B]

No, I said lay ministries. I meant to say that so. But yeah, that's the. I think Lily makes this comment here that applies that this may be a controversial perspective. Not to. Not trying to argue, I promise. But I believe church is not for intellectual engagement. The world is full of information and knowledge. I can intellectually engage every day, listening to podcasts, reading books and studying on my own. I need connection, which I cannot do alone. The meetings that are intellectual, the lessons are interesting to the part of me that loves learning but feel empty and frustrating because it's the need for connection through the gospel that got my introverted self to church that day. I want to hear what others have experienced, what they learned through those experiences, and share my own perspectives. Guided sharing and connection is still intellectual, but also includes those relational and spiritual parts. The mere thought of sitting through yet another lesson in Sunday school is enough to keep me from going to church at all, because I know that when I leave feeling unsatisfied and empty, I'd love to hear the perspectives of others on this. So, yeah, that's interesting where I think that is. I was going to say there. Oh, yeah, just this. And I need to post this. I was just interviewed on the Quick Media with Greg Madsen. If those of you that follow that platform and we talk about this concept of is doctrine being watered down and it's, it's a great 60 minutes or so conversation. And I highlight this of somewhere along the line in this effort to be more intellectual or gain intelligence, we. I feel like there's a common feeling that we're all striving to be BYU religion professors, right? We want to know all the Hebrew, all the. All the Greek roots, all the, you know, the connect the. All the things which is great and worth our time to get there. But sometimes in our effort to be hyper intellectual about gospel topics, we miss the relational aspect, right? So as trial or struggle hits life, it's great to have that intellectual perspective, but also we need to understand how to access God's redemption and overcome these things that we face or at least be strengthened in our trials to overcome them. So, Bryce, go ahead.

[C]

I think I see both sides of this. Right. If you've Ever read a really engaging book. And like, I'm reading Torn right now and I've thought like, we should do like a, a leading saints book club on this book because I want to talk to people about it. I want to talk to people about my experience with family and friends and church people in my ward who have gone through this and then, and then kind of say like, hey, this is what I've seen and this is supported in the data in Torn and who else has seen this and what have you done? Right. And so I think there is something to learning knowledge by yourself is more enjoyable to then. And you, and you get more from it when you come and then you share and you converse. Right. Which I think is kind of the whole hope of come follow me. And, and second hour in general is that people are, are engaged in the individual study and then we come together for that book club type experience. But also connection. I think it feels watered down when someone wants to be fed with that level of engagement, but not everyone

[D]

has

[C]

prepared or they feel like they're coming to be talked to. And not everyone's coming with the same level of like, hey, I've dug into this and this is where I'm at and this is how it applies to my life. How about you? I think that's what's missing generally from my lived experience.

[B]

Yeah. And it's that they can be tricky when, you know, and hopefully this improves with the, you know, meeting every week for Sunday school, even though it's going to be shorter, where maybe we can focus on less amount, a smaller block of Scripture.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Rather than, okay, we covered 40 chapters in whatever book in the Old Testament and who's got a thought? And you know, maybe one person read in the first five chapters, the other person read 30. You know, it's just. So it's harder where if you did a book club, it's more like, okay, we're discussing chapter two, right? Like, everybody read chapter two. Great, let's talk about it. And there's more discussion that way. But it is tricky that, you know, because we want that discussion, but sometimes we're all over the map or there's that. That portion of the group who didn't really get into the scriptures that week and they kind of feel bad and stare at the carpet the whole time or whatever. So, John, John, go ahead and we'll go to Nathan.

[E]

Yeah, I was just going to say, I, you know, I engaged in, in this conversation. There's, there's a lot of things going on here, including this Idea of being intellectual or whatever the case may be. When anyone who's dealt with education in this world of, you know, intelligence understands there's a kind of a different category that's. It's called an advanced learner. Advanced learners want to acquire knowledge. Bright people don't really care about acquiring knowledge. They care about exploring all the nooks and crannies around that knowledge and why it's important and all the other things and how that knowledge is applied and things. And. And so it's really interesting, you know, advanced learners are the ones that are really good at getting A's, you know, but we all know that the brightest people that we. We grew up with or knew or interacted with probably didn't get A's, right? Because they didn't care. But I. I taught Gospel doctrine for a couple of years, every week, every week for a couple years in a first. In the first married war that my wife and I were in. And I, you know, come from a background of studying and learning and things. And so I always wanted to add that into my. Into my teaching. I always thought, what's missing for me in Sunday school is that I don't get intellectually stimulated or intellectually challenged. And so for I. I always said, you know, for the first five. And I told everybody, I'm like, hey, you may not be interested in this, but for five or seven minutes, we're going to learn a really interesting thing about the Old Testament, you know, the culture. Here's some maps and whatever it was that we were going to try and talk about that day for five minutes. And then I went and did the curriculum. Over the years, I've kept in touch with many people in that group. And the experiences that we had in that Sunday school class were really great. We got to know people. They shared stories about their lives. They shared the stories about how they decided to go into a career or not. They shared stories about, you know, the tragedies in their lives that they learned and grew from. I came to find out through those. Through that couple of years that it was more important to have people sharing the experiences that they've had with the gospel principles and doctrines that we're talking about, because that sharing is their testimony, and that testimony brings the spirit into that room. I came to see that there was more value in a community associated with the spirit and learning and being testified to by the spirit. And having one single teacher sitting in front of you talking or trying to teach you something has the opportunity for the spirit, one opportunity for the Spirit, it's that one person's point of view, that one person's experiences. But when you start talking to the entire group and you have experiences shared from everybody else, you know, I may not touch the hearts and minds of others in that classroom, but Susie over there does and Johnny over there does. When they share, they can reach out. The more people that are sharing their experiences in that classroom setting, the wider the spirit is testifying to everyone else in the room. Because it's multiple voices, multiple opportunities for the spirit to come in and testify to the things that are, that are being talked about. Gives multiple people the opportunity to see it. And so this con, and I'm one, I actually want to go to church and learn. That's what I want.

[B]

Imagine that.

[E]

But I came to learn that that's not the best experience and it's not the experience that our church have designed curriculum for.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

That's why observation and experiences just. That's my two cents.

[B]

And I feel like there are other structures they have put in place. Like I mentioned this, maybe I didn't, but in this forum, but there is. Any state can approve an institute style class, you know, another day during the week where you use the curriculum from the institute program and you can really, you know, have hour, two hour class if you want, you know, that people can opt in to be a part of. So Nathan, did you have something to share?

[D]

Yeah, so I, you know, one of the concerns that I have is as we talk about intellectual knowledge, it's often like when we make it too intellectual, we have people that then hold back and they don't want to share, they don't want to comment, they feel like they don't know enough. We have, we have so many, so many of the young youth that I talk to about going on missions. What's your biggest holdup? I don't feel like I know enough. And so one of the, one of the things I think we have to do is focus on what is intellectual knowledge. Is it just, is it being a scriptorian? Is it understanding, you know, making Hebraic connections? I think there's so much more to it. One of the things in my, in my personal patriarchal blessing talks about a lifetime of intellectual service to my fellow man. So I've had to study and find out what does intellectual service mean? Does that, I don't think that means becoming a scriptorian and being a great teacher. It's finding ways to give meaningful service. And so some of my best second hour lessons and some of my Favorite people. I have a nonprofit foundation. We spend a couple weeks in the mountains in the highlands of Guatemala doing work there. And those second hours when I go to those people, a lot of them are illiterate, yet their ability to get together and teach intelligence of this is meaningful service. And then they go and give it to each other. You visit with their stake presidents, these people, they call them his 90 percenters, 90% sacrament attendance, they're 90% ministering, they're 90% in making it to the temple monthly, which is a tremendous sacrifice. And so I think there's, to an extent we have to define what is intellectual. And I love what John was sharing there because I think it's more about connection than it is being able to feel like we're growing as a scriptorium because I think to an extent that minimizes people's ability to feel open to sharing and wanting to be involved in our classes and lessons.

[B]

Yeah, really good. I want to share this comment by Linda. She says, it seems to me that the Sunday school approach, let's see. It seems to me the Sunday school approach seems to be asking how does having faith help us through hard times? The result is surface level stories about things worked out in the end. Then in the better intellectual, deeper inquiry approach would be more like asking in the Scriptures. Faithful people like Job or even Christ on the cross experience moments of profound silence from heaven. How do we sustain intellectual and spiritual faith when the answers we receive feel incomplete or delayed? More personal, sharing an experience and revelation in the lives of others for a glimpse of how Christ is working to prepare each one of us for his return. I have had a lot of testimonies, experiences of things not working. And yet I learned my greatest lessons. Very good. And then I'll spot like this. Then we'll go to Sean here. Allison says knowing that the gospel is true is important. Good and necessary intelligence is consistently being true to the gospel that we know. Knowing that the principle of the gospel. Oh, sorry, there we go. Knowing that the principles of the gospel work in our lives is a good thing. However, intelligence is consistently working to apply the principles of the gospel in our lives. Yeah. Oh, that was a quote by. From Increase in Learning by Elder Bednar. So really good.

[D]

And

[B]

yeah, I think there's maybe different ways that we can understand intelligence as it is talked about in the Doctrine Covenants.

[D]

For sure.

[B]

Sean, go ahead.

[F]

Yeah, I was just going to share that. A lot of times when I teach, the first thing I'll do is I'll go up to the board And I'll write the word think and I'll do a circle around it and I'll do an X through it and say, hey, look, I really don't want to know what you think during this discussion. I really want to know what you have experienced, what you know and you know, what you can testify of. That's what I want to hear. Like let's have a conversation today. Let's not pontificate. Let's not go, you know, get off the beaten path about things like, like let's really dial in and find out what you can testify of. And it's just such a much more enriching conversation when you do that.

[B]

Yeah, love that. That's really good. Really good. Well, it is probably about time to wrap up. I wanted to share a few things if, if you wouldn't mind before we log off here. Just go to and mention maybe what stood out to you about this, this concept. If you want to share any gratitude or that you appreciated it or anything you would change about this. And I want to share this. Just a few things, a few topics that we did not. There we go. That we did not hit on one obviously we talked about this intelligent engagement, their intelligent intellectual engagement. There's 23 comments on there. Definitely great conversation. Jump into Allison shared got this conversation started about converted to the church or to Christ. Really great discussion there. Jared shares two wins. Apostle or handbook? There's a survey there. As far as hypothetically, if a statement made by an apostle contradicts a paragraph published in the Handbook of Instruction, which wins, I think that's a real applicable discussion. Excuse me. And then do you here's a more practical question. Do you use a separate email for your calling? That got quite a conversation going. And then of course most of us, I did not because we had state conference but we experienced the Constitution 5th Sunday discussion this past week. Would love for you to just come report back. How did it go? What was the experience like? And there's many on there that have shared and gotten that conversation going. And then finally on the, on the menu here, if you scroll all the way to the bottom and click here, become a Zion builder that opens up to this page. And again, nobody has an excuse why they cannot be a Zion builder. You can either subscribe for 15amonth to keep this leading saints train going or you can get free access. Now this is donor supported. You can and if you do not choose any of those options you must send me a DM and tell me why. Because we help us help you all Right. So there's such fantastic resources here, especially the AI clerk. Here's a few examples, the questions that people ask the AI clerk. And then we also have a Zion Lab podcast feed. So any live stream that happens on Zion Lab, we soon thereafter we upload it to the Design Lab podcast. It's a private podcast feed. You have to be a Zyme builder to subscribe to it. And so if you like listening to content on the go, obviously you can do that within the leading Saints app, which that's another thing you should all download because it makes using Zion Lab much easier from your phone. But you can listen on the go there. And so success stories, all the things. So no excuses. You got to be a Zion builder. Go to Zion leadingsaints.org Zion to get into Zion Lab, create a profile and then scroll down to become a Zion builder and benefit from all the all the resources that are out there. So thank you for being here and we'll be back here the first Friday of July. Appreciate all the comments and the participation and let's keep it going. We'll see you over in Zion Labor.