D (2:27)

If he didn't do anything wrong.

B (2:30)

Now, look, a pardon doesn't mean guilt. That matters. And it needs to be said out loud. But it does raise one question. If there was nothing to worry about, why issue it at all? I don't know the answer. I just know we're in unfamiliar territory. From Tenderfoot tv, I'm Payne Lindsay. This is leaked episode four it will learn.

A (3:11)

Good morning. Welcome to NIH Natcher Center. My name is Sally Howard. I'm the Chief of Staff to Secretary Kathleen Sebelius here at the United States Department of Health and Human Services. It's my distinct honor.

B (3:24)

To understand where we are now, you have to rewind more than a decade. Late 2012, inside the NIH Natcher Center, a group of scientists gathered to talk about a virus that was already making people feel uneasy. Highly pathogenic avion influenza H5N1.

A (3:45)

Our topic for the next two days. Highly pathogenic avian influenza has long been recognized as a significant agricultural problem. More worrisome is the possibility that HPAI H5N1 will become a major public health threat. We already know from experience that this virus is capable in some instances, of jumping hosts and moving from avian species into humans, causing severe respiratory illness.

B (4:11)

At the time, it wasn't spreading efficiently between humans, but when it did infect someone, it was deadly.

A (4:18)

This is thankfully a relatively rare event, but when this leap occurs, it can be quite lethal. Some 600 human cases have been reported since 2003, with a mortality rate of approximately 60%. Although currently H5N1 is not well adapted for sustained human to human transmission, recent studies underscore the growing concern and scientists.

B (4:41)

Were trying to understand what might make that change. One approach was to engineer genetic traits in into the virus that could mimic what might happen in nature. Gain of Function research There are different.

A (4:54)

Approaches for studying the ways in which the H5N1 virus can spread, adapt to new hosts or become more pathogenic. One approach is to engineer end of the virus genetically based traits that mimic those that might occur in nature. These so called gain of function experiments are not without risks, however, and have generated much discussion over biosafety and biosecurity issues.

B (5:17)

Everyone in that room understood the risk.

D (5:19)

All points of view are fair and.

C (5:21)

Will be taken into account.

B (5:22)

And everyone understood the stakes. Every individual in the world, every citizen.

C (5:27)

In every country has a stake in the research that will or will not go forward with respect to these highly pathogenic agents. It is for me a great pleasure.

B (5:40)

And a Source of Then Dr. Fauci took the stage to you, the director.

C (5:44)

Of the NIAID, Dr. Tony Fauci.

B (5:47)

And his position was clear. This kind of research was necessary. Risky, yes, but essential to staying ahead of future pandemics.

C (5:58)

But the bottom line is that gain and loss of function research is critical to understanding disease pathogenesis, antimicrobial resistance and host responses, as well as to developing better techniques of surveillance, vaccines and therapeutics specifically to gain a function research on HPAI H5N1. Now here comes the rub. As of today, there is no mechanism to provide restricted access to information regarding research funded by nih. So if NIH funds a grant, it is assumed that the results will be published. The only mechanism for restricted access is classification. Right now, NIAID does not, nor will we fund or do classified research. So really the fundamental question with regard to our involvement is, is. And the discussion in general is the issue is the risk to global health of the work that we fund, the risk of not funding that research versus the risk to the global health of the information harming society. That really is the critical question.

B (7:30)

That argument landed for some, but not everyone.

C (7:33)

And you mentioned the 2012 paper. I was involved in arguments after that.

B (7:39)

Dr. Robert Redfield was one of the voices pushing back. He had been a part of these conversations for years and he'd seen how quickly theoretical risk could turn into real world danger. When researchers in Europe figured out exactly which amino acid changes could make bird flu transmissible in humans. Redfield argued those findings should not be published, not because the science was wrong, but because the information itself could be misused.

C (8:06)

The gentleman that had done the work in Netherlands was on one of the boards that I was on and source. Tony was involved And I made Dr. Vouchier, right? Yeah, Dr. Vouchier from the Netherlands. And he had successfully figured out what amino acid changes we need to make to make bird flu infectious for humans. And there's about five or six amino acids that have to change for that to happen. And that's why, you know, some people think the likelihood that that will happen through spillover is less likely because it's not just one or two, because you got to have five or six in the right place. But he figured it out and he did it. And I was part of those discussions where I argued that he shouldn't publish his paper. I didn't think he should publish his findings. Of course Tony argued that he should publish his findings. This was science. I argued that I had been in the Defense Department and done dual use research and we don't always publish everything that we do. I thought it was a mistake in today's world to publish the recipe for how to make bird flu pandemic for humans. I lost that debate. I personally think it's a miracle that that hasn't already been used as a bioterrorist event.

B (9:30)

Science moves fast. It has to. Breakthroughs don't come from playing it safe. But there is a line between progress and Recklessness. And once you cross it, there's no undo button. As I kept looking at this story, it became clear that this tension was not limited to virology. It shows up everywhere. Humans push the artificial intelligence, biology, national security. Different fields, same pattern.

D (10:00)

We thought AI would happen in decades or centuries, but it might be just in a few years. And I somehow it could go wrong because we didn't. And we still don't have ways to make sure this technology eventually doesn't turn against us.

B (10:16)

We create powerful tools faster than we figure out how to control them. And the people closest to the work are often the first to warn that the guardrails are not ready.

D (10:25)

And you'd think that people would heed my warnings. But when I share these concerns, I have the impression that people get this another day, another apocalyptic prediction. These companies have a stated goal of building machines that will be smarter than us, that can replace human labor. Yet we still don't know how to make sure they won't turn against us. National security agencies around the world are starting to be worried that the scientific knowledge that these systems have could be used to build dangerous weapons.

B (11:01)

That doesn't mean disaster is inevitable, but it does mean risk is real.

C (11:06)

The bird flu is going to be a major pandemic. It's going to probably have a 5 to 10% mortality. It's not going to discriminate who it causes death in. It can kill children or adolescents and people in their midlife, people in their high productive 50s and 60s, and old people, as was Covid was more selective in mortality towards the elderly. That's coming now for nature. I think there's a pretty good species barrier that it could take time, but for gain of function research, which is going on in these laboratories, where we get an accidental escape, I think, unfortunately, that's too risky. We should not be having university labs doing this gain of function research. It's very dangerous. I remind people when I was CDC director, one of the things I had to do that was quite controversial and hit the newspapers was I shut down Fort Detrick because CDC had oversight of the containment labs around the country. And we inspected them regularly. And if they failed inspection, they had to make corrections, and if they didn't make corrections, we shut them down. Well, Fort Detrick had failed the inspection two times. And the third time I just said, we're shutting them down. And we shut them down for, I think, four to six months because they didn't follow the containment procedures by the book. And I'll guarantee you that most of the Labs that are doing gain of function research right now are not following containment. First, they don't have the containment procedures they should have, and secondly, they're not following them by the book. This is a big deal and we shouldn't be in this space. And if we decide as a society we need to be in this space, it should be very few labs with multiple redundancies. But I'm still not convinced that there's value. We have enough science power now that we can figure out things pretty quickly within weeks. We don't need the head start that we might have needed three decades ago. So that decision was to go ahead and publish that paper. I recommended strongly against it. I know that Fauci and I think Collins had a piece you probably got in the Washington Post around that time, 2012, where they're actually. Tofauci is actually quoted as saying that if the price that we pay for gain of function research is we have a pandemic, it's worth it. Well, I disagree with them. And we did get a pandemic. I think when it's all said and done, the FBI, the Energy Department, myself, a lot of others have come to the conclusion that this virus evolved as a consequence of scientific research in a laboratory that was doing gain of function research. That's the cause of the great pandemic. It wasn't naturally evolving from some type of bat to an animal. And it is a sense of scientific arrogance. I talk about. There's that arrogance that we don't understand. There's a real risk. Real risk.

B (14:17)

Deck your home with blinds.com. Diy or let.

D (14:25)

Let us install.

B (14:30)

Free design consultation. Plus free samples and free shipping.

C (14:42)

Blinds.com invented a better way to buy custom high quality window treatments with no showroom mockups or waiting around for quotes from pushy salespeople, saving you time and money for the holidays with upfront pricing right on our website.

B (14:58)

Go right now to blinds.com satisfaction guaranteed.

C (15:02)

Satisfaction guaranteed. Head to blinds.com now for up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus a free professional measure. Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply.

A (15:21)

To news out of B.C. now, where the first suspected human case of avian influenza in Canada has been detected.

B (15:29)

Fast Forward to late 2024.

A (15:31)

A teenager in British Columbia has tested positive for the virus, also known as bird flu, which can be fatal. There have been several cases detected in animals, but this is the first time it's crossed over into a human.

B (15:44)

Then another case.

C (15:45)

We want to start with a strain.

B (15:47)

Of the bird flu never detected in humans before. It's now being blamed for the death of a man in Mexico.

C (15:53)

He had no previous exposure to poultry.

B (15:56)

Or to other animals. We're not sure how he got it.

A (15:59)

Then another the Fed's now reporting an increase of the virus in mice and cats.

D (16:05)

Bird flu has infected 90 dairy herds.

B (16:08)

Across 12 states by 2025. Headlines are showing up almost daily. Different species, different regions, each jump making the virus a little better at surviving. Still no sustained human to human spread, and that matters. But the experts are watching closely because every new host increases the odds of something changing. And the more we let it move.

A (16:31)

Unchecked, the more likely we're going to have even a bigger mess on our hands.

C (16:37)

Poultry farmers have had to kill tens of millions of birds, removing them with trailers and driving egg prices sky high.

B (16:44)

The world has never seen this kind of situation. And it's showing us that the virus is capable of adaptation. If you allow it, it will just get better and better at infecting other mammals, including potentially humans.

A (16:59)

And every time there's a new species infected, that increases the likelihood that the virus could hit the lottery and cause a.

C (17:09)

It's easy to sound like an alarmist.

B (17:11)

What I'm here to tell you is this is a very serious threat to humanity. And if you zoom out, bird flu has been on this path for a long time. First identified in birds in the late 1800s, first confirmed in human infections in the late 1990s, the H5N1 virus is.

C (17:28)

Normally found in chickens, but made its.

B (17:30)

Leap to humans in Hong Kong this year. Then decades of slow movement followed by acceleration.

A (17:36)

This comes as the U.S. reports, its.

B (17:38)

First human case of avian flu.

A (17:40)

That was in Colorado. Yeah, Emily. The case we're talking about in Colorado involves a man who is working at a poultry facility.

B (17:47)

In January 2025, the United States recorded its first confirmed death.

A (17:53)

The patient, who was over 65 with underlying health conditions, had been hospitalized in Louisiana since mid December after being exposed to the virus through a flock of birds in a backyard.

B (18:05)

By the fall, the numbers kept climbing. According to health officials in Washington State, the person who lived outside Seattle had been hospitalized earlier this month for H5N5. That case was the world's first known bird to human transmission of the strain. None of this means a pandemic is guaranteed, but it does mean the margin for error is shrinking.

D (18:27)

It's really when, not if, that this arrives.

B (18:30)

This virus is changing very quickly. So how do you respond to a threat like that? One option is to monitor nature, contain outbreaks, and hope the virus never finds the right combination.

D (18:43)

I do believe there's a day when we could take pandemics off the table. We needed a 911 like commission to say what went right, what went wrong, how could we make it better? What do we need to prevent a future pandemic from taking over the world? And we haven't done that. Science, by the way, is not truth. Science is the pursuit of truth. We have to keep reinforcing that message that this is what we're all about, is trying to find what are the things that will save lives, make people's lives better.

B (19:10)

The other option is to try and outrun it with science. And that's where the debate around gain of function comes roaring right back.

D (19:19)

The bottom line message is from a science standpoint, we know a lot of what we need to do and we're not doing it. And at this point, we are gutting public health as we know it. The cdc, think of that as your ring cam for health. It's everybody's everyday organization that's watching for your health that's being destroyed. And so I have a hard time getting into the place of where are we with preparing for the pandemic, which people have to understand is going to happen. We can't even get it prepared for the COVID vaccines for this fall.

B (19:51)

In May 2025, President Trump signed an executive order suspending all federal funding for gain of function research.

C (20:01)

In all of the history of gain of function research, we can't point to a single good thing that's come from it.

D (20:09)

And today I commend President Trump for.

C (20:12)

His courage and his vision in ending US Bioweapons research.

B (20:17)

Supporters saw it as overdue caution. Critics worried it would slow progress and leave us all unprepared. This executive order puts in place a framework to make sure that the public has a say, that if such a risk is being taken, that only scientists alone won't be able to decide that. That in fact the public can say, no, don't take this risk.

C (20:39)

And I'm really, really proud to be here with President Trump, who signed this.

B (20:42)

Order ending this research for the first time, putting in place a real regulatory framework to make it go away forever.

C (20:48)

So it can leak out like from Wuhan. And a lot of people think that. I think I said that right from day one. It leaked out, whether it was to the girlfriend or somebody else. But scientists walked outside to have lunch with a girlfriend or was together with a lot of people. But that's how it leaked out, in my opinion. And I've never changed that opinion so it can leak out innocently, stupidly, incompetently, but innocently and half destroy the world, Right? That's right.

B (21:18)

That's right, Mr. President. Whether the research has continued elsewhere is hard to say. After the order, the trail goes quiet. Which brings us back to the same question scientists have been wrestling with for years. Do we take the risk now, hoping it saves lives later? Or do we step back, knowing that a single mistake could have global consequences? There are no easy answers there. Limu Imu and Doug.

C (21:51)

Here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

D (22:06)

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

C (22:09)

Cut the camera. They see us.

B (22:10)

Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.

C (22:13)

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very unwritten by.

B (22:16)

Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

A (22:18)

Want a secret to free holiday gifts? TikTok slash and free makes it real. Share a link Slash the price to zero. Free item. Free shipping. Download and open TikTok search slash free. Tap to join and start slashing Now.

D (22:33)

Every holiday shopper's got a list.

A (22:35)

But Ross shoppers, you've got a mission like a gift run that turns into a disco snow globe, throw pillows and PJs for the whole family, dog included. At Ross, holiday magic isn't about spending more.

B (22:45)

It's about giving more for less.

D (22:47)

Ross, work your magic. I had also given my consent to be ignorant and that within the bubble of the life that I was living, I didn't realize what my blind spots were. And I think that even though I could have easily told you that Covid came from a lab based on the obvious facts, I tuned it out. And even worse, I found myself engaging in socially divisive conversations about people who. Who didn't decide to get vaccinated, or about people's ideals based on how they were responding to the pandemic. And that was frightening. To get to the point where I am now, to realize that this entire thing was about dividing people.

B (23:42)

I caught up with Jenner Furst again toward the end of this series. It has been years since he finished filming his documentary, and a lot's changed since then. New leadership, new findings, a presidential pardon, and still very little closure. Jenner has spent more time living inside this material than I have, and I wanted to know how it all makes him feel. Now, his view is personal, reflective, and, yes, very opinionated. I don't agree with everything he says and I don't need to. What I do agree with is this part that being informed should not turn us against each other, that understanding risk does not require panic, and that most of the damage done during COVID was not just biological, but social isolation, division, mistrust. Those effects are real and they last.

D (24:36)

Ultimately, it's very hard, if not impossible, to reform a system like this. And what I've seen over the last year is that many of the folks in the movie who cared so much about this, you know, effort to reform and who were excited by the potential of being actually in a position to reform things have been disheartened, jaded, disenfranchised, because like I said, reform is like almost impossible. And I know that sounds like a really cynical thing to say, but it kind of brings me to where I'm at now, which is a position I've taken for many years, which is a non political community based lifestyle where you have to look at what happened with this story. And yes, you should be informed, and yes, you should know what is happening in our laboratories. You should know how dangerous this stuff is. And you should know that we've been lied to for a very long time. And more importantly, you should see, and I have seen that the result of this extremely dangerous research and these, quote, accidents, which in some cases may not have been accidents, they may have been intentional, is social control. And if you were to be informed, the outcome of you being informed should not be you isolating yourself and consuming endless amounts of information about this horrible world we live in, but it should be finding the light and the beauty around you in your own community and your family. Because that is the antithesis of this horrible stuff. The antithesis is connect with people. Do not write people off. Do not decide to judge someone based on what you perceive their political beliefs to be or what you perceive their response to a single issue like Covid to be. In fact, do the opposite. Try to connect with people. Because the outcome of this horrible reaction, research, the biggest outcome was social control. Like I've said in the movie, a pandemic that has a fatality rate of less than 1% in most instances changed society as we know it. It created the largest transfer of wealth in modern history and it completely reshaped the way we live our lives. And it was only able to do that because of the massive amount of social control that was created. And the only way, the only antidote to that virus, which is in many ways a spiritual virus, is to go against the grain and seek to connect with people. Who you have previously written off or who you are being made to believe are your enemy. Because the truth is, as citizens, that's the, the only power we have. And that's a global statement. That's a global statement. We have more in common with each other. 99.99% of us have more in common with each other than a fraction of a percentage that holds most of the power in our society. And that was the biggest takeaway for me, is live life locally. Yes, be informed, understand things, be able to take the information and shape the way you look, live your life. But if the result is for you to isolate and create bigger walls in your own community or in your home or at your kid's school, you're not getting it. You know, we have to connect. And although that sounds. It sounds cynical that there's nothing we could do about this big, horrible stuff, like if these people in the movie who know everything about it, get into the government and for the last year, reforming the this system has been nearly impossible because the headwinds of this giant, you know, thing make it, you know, so hard to turn this battleship in the middle of the ocean if they can't do it. Believe me, you at home scrolling through the Internet and acts and, you know, looking at all these different facts, you're not going to be able to do it either. But what you can do is change the way you're living your life so that the social control aspect can't take hold. And that if you and your community can be someone who brings people together around these things versus, you know, divides people, that that is the solution.

B (29:20)

When Jenner handed over all of his footage at the start of this series, he told me, when you get to the end, tell me what you believe. And somewhere along the way, I realized that that origin question, while important, is not the only thing that matters. Because once you ask who is responsible, you also have to ask what accountability even looks like for governments, for scientists, for institutions, and for ourselves. Over the next few episodes, we're talking to experts who have continued tracking this story long after the cameras stopped rolling. What they are seeing now, what's changed, and where they think we're all headed. But before I move forward, I want to pause on one thing. We do not have to live in a constant state of fear. Alarmism spreads fast because it's loud and dramatic, but let's be honest, it rarely helps. Sometimes the real work is quieter, asking better questions, listening more carefully, talking to each other without immediately choosing sides. Because being informed does not make us powerless. It gives us agency. I've spent years making shows about the unknown, about what might be watching us from far away. And sometimes late at night, I think about what we must look like from the outside. A species capable of destroying itself many times over. And yet somehow we keep choosing not to. For all of our flaws, all our chaos, we keep moving forward. And if we stick with that, then maybe there's more hope than we think. And maybe this is the part of the story worth holding onto.

D (31:06)

I know it sounds a bit Kumbaya, but in the end that's where I've landed is seek to connect with people. Do it on non political terms, do it on humanistic terms, and seek to build stronger bonds within your family, your community, you know, your kids, school, things like this. This is, this is the solution as, as, you know, as sort of fluffy as it sounds. Because you're not going to stop this research in the laboratory. There'll always be a way for it to get get through the the system. And you're not going to single handedly unwind the influence of the pharmaceutical industry or the military industrial complex, or our pursuit of intelligence and adversarial countries. You're not going to do that as an individual. But this is what you can do as an individual. And that's where I focus most of my time recently. So it's changed me and I'm grateful it has.

B (32:10)

Thanks for listening to Leaked, a podcast inspired by the documentary. Thank you Dr. Fauci. If you want to see the full story, the interviews, the evidence and more.

D (32:19)

Check out the documentary, streaming now on.

B (32:22)

Angel Studios, visit angel.com Leaked is a production of Tenderfoot Labs produced in partnership with Insight Studios, Angel Studios and Bombadil Productions. Producers on behalf of Insight Studios are Jenner Furst, Louis Fenton, Scott St. John and Arnold Rifkin. Executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot Labs are Donald Albright Payne, Lindsay and Alex Vespersted. Tenfoot Labs lead producer is Tristan Bankston.

D (32:51)

Editing by Liam Luxon.

B (32:53)

Associate editors are Myles Clark and Cameron Tagi. Coordinating producers are John street and Jordan Fox. Foxworthy Artwork by Where Eagles Dare Music by Danielle Fuerst, Kyrie Mateen and Jay Ragsdale. Mix by Dayton Cole. For more podcasts like Leaked, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us@Tenderfoot TV. Thanks for listening.

A (33:22)

Someone convinced you that homeschooling was going to be so much fun and you've got to give it a try. You're never going to look back and you said okay, and now you're sitting here thinking, what in the world did I get myself into? I've got you for history. For years we have used America's History, Volume 1 and 2 by Tuttle Twins. I love it because it's open and go. My kids love it because it feels like extended story time. I would highly recommend you check out America's History, Volume 1 and 2 by Tuttle Twins. Pick these up today. You will thank me for it later. And you've got this.