← Leap Academy with Ilana Golan
Leap Academy with Ilana Golan
Alex Carter: Negotiate Like a Pro, Powerful Techniques to Unlock Career and Business Growth | E99
00:53:58
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- [00:00]
Ilana Golan
Wow. This show is going to be incredible. So buckle up and I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. But before we get started, I want to ask you for a favor. See, it's really, really important for me to help millions of people elevate their career, fast track to leadership land, dream roles, jump to entrepreneurship or create portfolio careers. And this podcast is all about enabling this for millions of people to see a map of what it actually takes for big leaders to reach success. So subscribe and download so you never miss it. Plus, it really, really helps me continue to bring amazing guests. Okay, so let's dive in.
- [00:36]
Alex Carter
I see negotiation as problem solving. I don't sell. I problem solve.
- [00:41]
Ilana Golan
Alex Carter. She is a Wall Street Journal best selling author, Columbia law professor, the go to expert for negotiation.
- [00:50]
Alex Carter
Earlier on in my career, I was for everybody else, the fearless junkyard dog negotiator who would just go out and get what you needed. And when it came to me, I would hesitate. When you get to that place where you are so rock solid, confident in your worth, that you're able to say, here's the investment to work with me and if that doesn't work for you, I understand and you believe it. People smell that on you. Negotiation does not start with the numbers. It starts with using your words to teach people how to think about you and the value you bring long before you get to the number. These are the questions that research shows make people the most money.
- [01:50]
Ilana Golan
Alex Carter, the go to expert for negotiation. She is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author, Columbia law professor, and her recent TEDX on How to Ask for More highly recommend. Check it out was seen by over a million people. She built a career helping people own their voice and ask for more, which is so, so, so important. Alex, you also say negotiation isn't just for the boardroom, it's for life. I'm so glad that you're here today.
- [02:19]
Alex Carter
Oh, Ilana, thank you for having me. I'm so excited for the conversation.
- [02:24]
Ilana Golan
It's going to be incredible. But I want you to take us back in time to Alex the kid, how you grew up. Where did you grow up? How were you as a kid? Were you like this? Assertive? Like I can negotiate anything in life.
- [02:37]
Alex Carter
So interesting. I think people, Ilana, often assume that I came out of the womb asking for more, right? That I felt so confident from a very early age, always to get what I needed and to use my voice. And the truth is that actually as a younger kid, I was quite shy, especially in school or outside the home. I was really into reading, really into academics, but I often felt as though in larger groups I wasn't speaking up as much. And then I remember the moment in 8th grade that they started introducing us to speech and debate. And that's when I figured out that when I had something substantive to say, I felt very comfortable getting up, speaking on my feet, and saying it to an audience of any size. And that was a really interesting lesson for me. Really knowing more about what I was interested in substantively helped me find my feet and my confidence. It makes me think about your audience, right? Of entrepreneurs and folks who, when you get on your topic or your mission, all of a sudden you're unstoppable and you have something to say. And later on, Ilana, I found that I started getting more comfortable using my negotiation skills for other people. We can get into this. But earlier on in my career, really, I was, for everybody else, the fearless junkyard dog negotiator who would just go out and get what you needed. And when it came to me, sometimes I would hesitate.
- [04:23]
Ilana Golan
I want to go there in a second because I think that selling yourself, selling your value, negotiating, we'll talk about it. Because you don't call it selling for a good reason, but selling yourself, selling your value slash negotiating. I'm saying what people perceive of the words. You're gonna correct us. But the way it's looking right now, people hesitate. Right. It's scary. I don't wanna push. I don't wanna be the person that rubs them in the wrong way. The rock the boat. So we'll talk about this. But I would love to understand, and I think you said something beautifully, that when you find your voice, you are so much more in power and empowered to actually speak up. Right? Which I think is so, so, so important. But I do want to challenge you for a second because when you didn't know if you have your voice, why did you go to debate? Why did you go in high school to some kind of public speaking team? How did you push yourself? Did somebody else push you? What was it?
- [05:23]
Alex Carter
The answer is no. I pushed myself. And initially I pushed myself because I thought it would be a challenge. So one thing that I have to say that I've always been good at is putting myself forward for a challenge. So whether that was in eighth grade, deciding, I am going to enter this speech and debate contest, and maybe it's going to be difficult, but this is going to be good for me, or in college when I arrived and I felt so shy about meeting people And I thought to myself, I'm going to run for student government, and I'm going to knock on every door in the freshman class and ask people for their vote. And, Ilana, I would knock on every door, go into the bathroom, cry, wash my face, and then go to the next floor and knock on every door there. And so it was a bit of maybe taking a leap and saying, this is something that I think I can do deep down, and it might be a challenge, but I'm going to push myself, bet on myself, and see what happens.
- [06:25]
Ilana Golan
Do you think something in your childhood brought this kind of resilience for you?
- [06:30]
Alex Carter
I do. You know, I had some difficult times as a child. My parents went through a really rough divorce. And I remember in particular looking at my mom and how she was feeling. And, you know, at times in court, it felt like she was at a real disadvantage. And I was there in court as a child sometimes watching it happen. And I remember telling myself, this is not going to be me. I'm going to equip myself to make sure that I am empowered and I can always speak up for my own interests. You know, my mother put us first, her children, for many years. And I'm fortunate now to be in a time where I am the mother of a teenager. Right. I am the wife of a wonderful person who supports me. And also I am very empowered in my career. And I go out and I show my daughter that you can do both.
- [07:27]
Ilana Golan
By the way, we share that story. So my parents got a divorce at age 15. But that's now it ties to white law, right? I mean, that suddenly became your mission. Oh, my God, that's so strong. So tell us, Alex.
- [07:40]
Alex Carter
Yes. So interestingly, I am the child of a lawyer and a teacher. So here I am now as a law professor. You know, I looked back on that many years later and just laughed to myself, like, boy, was that my biological destiny here, my genetic destiny. I absolutely love law teaching. It's wonderful. But in my work at Columbia, because I have both a day job and I'm an entrepreneur, as you know, and in my work at Columbia, I'm a law professor, but I teach mediation. Mediation is the art and science of helping people to negotiate and resolve disputes outside of court. And so amazing that I became a lawyer in part because I said to myself, I will not be taken advantage of. And yet I found myself to the place where creativity, psychology, and healing meet the law, and where people can take agency and find their voice to settle their disputes before it goes to a judge.
- [08:47]
Ilana Golan
And you did have. Initially, your work involved a lot of mediations and tough cases and researching conflict resolution. Right. And that gave you a lot of great muscle and valuable skills. What are they? How do you see it today? And how do you use that all the time now?
- [09:05]
Alex Carter
Oh, every day, Ilana. I mean, I learned mediation before I studied negotiation. And the result of that is that by the time I was studying negotiation, I was oriented toward how can I use my words to bring people together? How can I think about what the person across from me needs, what's motivating them, What's. What's keeping them up at night? What are the words I hear them using over and over again that seem to have meaning to them? And how can I frame what I'm asking for in a way that hits those words for them? And so it was 20 years almost as a mediator, helping thousands of people in IT with them, helping them to negotiate some of the biggest, thorniest, highest stakes disputes. Disputes that I realized there's another way to do this. And it's a way that I don't see represented in movies or tv and I don't even see represented in the books that are out there. So I had to take my own leap at a time when I thought, can I really write a book? The other people in this field who are writing books are all much older than I am. Many of them are men with law enforcement experience. And I decided to take that leap because I thought if I don't see this approach out there, if I believe there's a hole in the market, there have to be people waiting for this book that I have inside of me. So I decided to take that 20 years of experience and knowledge and research and put it into a framework that I knew people could use to make their lives better.
- [10:45]
Ilana Golan
Ryan, I love that and in your book, and we'll talk a lot more about it, ask for more. There's a ton of brilliant things and I think every single person that is listening to this needs to hear it because, yes, negotiation is everywhere. And what I love that you say is don't request, recruit. And I think this is such a different way of looking at negotiation because you're not trying. Listen to me, listen to me. I deserve more because I worked really hard and many hours. And because that's not relevant, nobody's going to pay you for so many hours, but you can recruit them to understand that they want to pay you more because it's an incredible win. Win. And I think the way you're positioning it is so beautiful. Right before that, though, you needed to move to teaching, right? Negotiation, et cetera. And I believe you almost didn't apply. Is that true?
- [11:38]
Alex Carter
That is correct. So you hear those studies about how some folks, especially women, but it could be other people don't apply to a job unless they feel they meet 100% of the job description. And so even though I had been invited to apply and encouraged to apply, I looked at the application and all I saw was what I didn't have initially. And I have to say, it took a couple of people close to me to say, sit down, you can do this. And so when I wrote that application, I focused on what I did have. I knew I was going to be one of the youngest and least experienced people in the pool. I applied for a full time law teaching job when I had no law teaching experience, but what I did have was substantial experience teaching in other contexts. What I did have was that I had been through the program as a student and so I felt I was closer to what the students needed and would be looking for and I would know how to craft a curriculum for them. And I flat out told people when they interviewed, if you're looking for the most experienced person in the pool, who's going to lead your program for the next 10 to 15 years before they retire, I'm not that person. If you are looking for somebody with vision and energy and a lot of ideas who could take your program to the next level for 30 years and beyond, I'm who you want. And the committee decided that's what they wanted. So truly, I always tell people, bet on yourself, start with what you have. And now, since then, I've taken a number of leaps where people called me and said, can you do this? And I had never done it before. And I thought to myself, yes, I can. And so I went ahead and did it.
- [13:33]
Ilana Golan
You're never going to be perfectly ready. It's never realistic, because as high achiever, you're always pushing yourself a little beyond when you're really ready. But you're bringing that conviction of why it will work versus why it won't. And I think that's just beautiful. And you share a lot around how do you decide to go even if you're not ready and how do you push through that. And I just love that. Right. I think you did it also with a clinic in Colombia, negotiation clinic. You've done it with a UN I want to talk about it for a little bit. So you've done it again and again, even though you're never going to tick all the boxes. It's just not realistic.
- [14:12]
Alex Carter
No, it's not realistic for anyone. And I'll tell you now, as somebody who hires people, I interview potential professors for positions. One of the things I'm looking for is somebody who's clear on what they have left to learn. How do they want to grow? What are the skill sets and the competencies they want to develop? And far from showing a lack of confidence, to me, that is the most confident person in the pool, because they're coming in clearly understanding their expertise, and also with the comfort and the command to be able to say, and here's where I want to grow. Because as you said, top performers are always looking to grow. The most dangerous person for me in a pool of applicants is the person who says, I know it all. No, you don't.
- [15:01]
Ilana Golan
You alluded to something in the beginning. And I want to bring that back for a second because I think you said something along the line. I was so good at negotiation. For everybody else, except for me, that is so, so, so common. And I assume that's also part of what made negotiations. So as to big passion for you.
- [15:18]
Alex Carter
Yes. I, early on in my career was in a bunch of roles where things were mostly lockstep. So working for really large investment banks or law firms or places where your compensation is pretty much determined by your seniority. And that's it. And I remember the moment that I then had to really advocate for myself, and I found myself being un. Unexpectedly nervous. Even more so when I went in and I got an offer that was a little bit above what I was expecting. And now I know I just got bad information. But back then I had this internal crisis. Right. You know? Right. That if they come in above, there's a reason for that. So I get this offer, and internally I feel myself at war with myself saying, maybe I should just accept this. This is a good offer. It's more than I thought. Am I going to look not collaborative? Am I going to turn them off? But I had just enough sense to say, thank you. I'm going to run my numbers. I'll come back to you. And that's when I called a senior woman in my field and I said, what advice do you have for me? Candidly, this is the offer. She said, I'm going to tell you what to do, Alex. You're going to get back in there and you're going to ask for more. And here's why. When you teach someone how to value you, you're teaching them how to Value all of us. You are normalizing negotiation. And so if you're not going to do it for yourself, I want you to do it for the person who's coming after you. And that was the moment, Ilana, that I thought, oh, no, now I have to negotiate all the time because I think of myself as a collaboration oriented person. I want to create more for other people in the course of creating more for myself. And up until that moment, I thought, if I ask for more, somebody else gets less. But it is not true. I realized that when I put myself in rooms, I am then in a position to help the next person and to normalize what it's like. These days, occasionally I hear about somebody who's in my field, my line of work as an author and a speaker who was underselling themselves. And I will sometimes, if I know that person, reach out and say, please value yourself and raise your prices to the level of your value and know that when you are doing it, you are helping everybody in our industry elevate. Ilana, this is an issue in some sectors more than others, but truly, when you ask for more, not only do you help other entrepreneurs or other people who are job seekers, but if you're an entrepreneur, you help your client. Hear me out. Everybody on this podcast, perhaps listening now, has had the experience of underselling themselves. You undercharged. You maybe didn't define clear boundaries. You ended up over giving. And how did you feel? You felt burnt out, you felt resentful? Was your client getting the best of you? No, they were not. Right. And I always say to people, if you undersold, there's no need to harsh on ourselves. You conducted an experiment. You experimented in what it was like to sell yourself at that level. And now we know the results of that experiment are you're overbooked and you're overwhelmed and resentful. When you fully value yourself, your client gets the best version of you, and that's what they deserve.
- [19:04]
Ilana Golan
I so agree with that. And it's true in corporates as well. They will get you more motivated, more inspired, more empowered, et cetera, et cetera. Because I think one of the things people don't understand, and I love that you just said that people will treat you the way you are perceived to be treated and people will pay you what you believe you're worth. So at that point, you just need to build that conviction of what it actually worth. And by the way, some people can't afford you. That is okay, too.
- [19:31]
Alex Carter
Yes. And then when you get to that place where you are so rock solid, confident in your worth, that you're able to say, here's the investment to work with me either as an entrepreneur or here's what the investment is to bring me onto your team in corporate. And if that doesn't work for you, I understand and you believe it. People smell that on you. The day that I walked into meetings and I thought to myself, if this works, great. If it doesn't work, somebody else is going to want me for exactly what it is that I'm offering. That's when my close rate went way up. Last thing I'll say about corporate, if you're interviewing for a management or senior executive position, when you negotiate for yourself, you are showing them what kind of negotiator you will be for them.
- [20:23]
Ilana Golan
This is amazing. So let me take you there for a second. So you work with global leaders, Fortune 100, UN take us back in time to averse big clients and opportunity. Because I think one of the things, Alex, that is taking a lot of fear and doubt for our listeners is how do I make that first step? How do I get the first clients in the door? How do I leap initially, or whether it's to a new industry or to entrepreneurship or to executive, it doesn't matter. But the initial is just so scary and fear can be numbing. How did you get the first clients?
- [20:59]
Alex Carter
So as an entrepreneur, as a speaker, and by the way, Ilana, my speaking career really came even before the book. It's part of what made the book possible for me. Even though I had almost no social media and no website of my own, I landed a large book deal based on the strength of my speaking portfolio. But it all started around 2012, when the truth is that I had a young daughter at home who was born with a couple of medical problems that I knew it was going to take a large investment for us to really treat. And I had just taken a job as a professor recently, and, you know, I was making less than I was as a lawyer in private practice. And I thought, how am I going to do this? I'm going to go out as a keynote speaker. And so all I did was start telling people in my circle that I was a keynote speaker. I'd done a couple of workshops, but I'd never done a keynote. And lo and behold, somebody saw a post either that I made or my husband made on Facebook. It was the father of one of my daughter's little toddler friends. And he called me up, worked at a major company and said, so do you do keynote Speaking. And I said, absolutely. And we ended up negotiating. And I got in front of a hundred of the top leaders at this company for a conference. Now it was interesting, Ilana, because they hadn't budgeted a lot for a speaker. So I did negotiate with them. I had a sense of what I should be paid. They had less than that. And I thought to myself, okay, what else can I do to get value out of this event? So I asked them a couple questions. I said, tell me how you're documenting the event. And they said, we're having a professional photographer and videographer. And I said, okay, tell me whose going to be at the event? And they told me all the managing directors who were going to be there. And I said, fine, okay, I'm going to do this slightly below market for the max you've told me you can offer me. Plus I want a certain number of digital photos of me in front of your company's logo that I have permission to use for my speaking portfolio. And if I blow the doors off it, like I'm confident I'm going to. I'd like to have several high level managing director people be references for me for other future clients. I went on Ilana from that one gig, okay, where I got up there and for a second I thought, oh my God, what am I doing? I'm in front of these very senior people. Then I thought, okay, I'm just going to do what I know I can do. Blew the doors off it. I ended up over the next few years going on to make like 20 to 25 times what I did in that one engagement. Just from referrals, referrals, referrals, referrals. And I built from there. So it started with taking a leap. It started with betting on myself. But I also brought a really high level of excellence to every job I did. And I treated it, I treated the keynote like a negotiation because I see negotiation as problem solving. I don't sell. I problem solve. I serve people. And I tried to serve each one of my clients at a really high level because I knew that then somebody else was going to pick up the phone and call me. And that's what happened.
- [24:27]
Ilana Golan
For everybody listening. First of all, I want to iterate the hidden market, right? One of the big things that we say in Leap Academy is that every great opportunity you ever going to get is going to happen from the hidden market. It's not in the job board. It's really who knows you, who thinks about you when you're not in the room, who's going to bring this opportunity for you. Alec, this is classic, right? I mean they've seen you, they whatever, right? And again, you need to be top of mind, otherwise who's going to see you, right? That's how they reached out to you. But also I love and you have it also in the book, there's other things you can negotiate. It's not only money. In this case is was whatever success stories, leads media because now you can use it for your website for your reels. Like it's just so powerful because there's other things that you can negotiate and you look at it as problem solving, which is so brilliant. Talk to us a little bit more about our listeners. This will be really impactful for them because they might need to negotiate a job opportunity or a role. What are some of the tools? And you have some amazing tips in your book. Ask for more. What are some of the biggest advice that you would give to some of these people?
- [25:35]
Alex Carter
The place that I started for business development is the same place I start in negotiation. I sit down and I ask myself, what's the problem I want to solve? Most of negotiation success and if you're in a company, most of your innovation success is really about picking the right problem to solve. That is where most innovation happens or doesn't. And so I started thinking about what are the problems out there that I know I can help people solve that aren't being solved yet. Right. And so I started thinking specifically about people in relationship oriented businesses and how I knew that I had an approach to negotiation that simultaneously was going to help people build stronger relationships and maintain those relationships even as they were making more money in the process. And so I started thinking about, okay, who's in the relationship business? I mean, spoiler alert, Ilana, Most people are, which is the reason, right? That business has been quite good. But I started thinking about and within different industries, what are problems that I could help people solve. For example, in certain industries it could be tech, it could be insurance. There's been a lot of M and A activity. And so part of the problem people want to solve is thinking about how do we harness all of the new power under our roof? How do we negotiate together for the best business development result? How do we tell the story of our new company in a way that induces people to work with us? And so whatever it is, for every industry, I'm always going back to the problem I want to solve. And that is one of the first questions I ask clients or potential clients on the phone. I want them to Tell me about their business. I also, Ilana, want the individual to tell me about themselves. Because, Ilana, if you are the executive at the company that I'm negotiating with, I don't just want to help your company. I want to think about how I can help you. Where are you looking to go in your career? What do you want to show on your next performance review? And how can I, in the context of working together, help you towards your career goals while we're also just crushing it for the company? So always, always starting with the problem we want to solve.
- [28:10]
Ilana Golan
If you're feeling stuck, underpaid, or unappreciated, or you're simply ready to take your career and life to the next level, I have the perfect solution for you. We have the program that helps you fast track and leap your reputation and career. Become the best version of yourself, get the dream role you deserve, move up to leadership, jump to entrepreneurship, or even build a portfolio career. This program helps hundreds a year and it will help you gain the income, influence, and impact that will transform the second part of your life. Watch our free training today@leapacademy.com free training. The link is in the show notes. Back to the show. Let's give them little nuggets. So if I'm, I don't know, an executive that wants to get a promotion, what do I say to my boss? Hi, I'm working really hard. Can you give me a promotion? Probably not.
- [29:07]
Alex Carter
So let me tell you there. Let's take that as an example. I'm working really hard. Can you give me a promotion? I want to talk about two issues with that. The first is I'm working really hard. What are the problems that your boss needs to solve in the company? What are the problems that the company is needing to solve? And how are you being impactful already in solving those problems? This is why we start with the problem we want to solve. Because then I'm leading that conversation by saying, ilana, I'm so glad to sit down. Wanted to thank you for your support and mentorship and to say I'm so excited to show you these results over the last year that show we're making significant progress toward that major goal that we've set as a company and as a division. Okay, so that's the first piece of it. Then the second is I love the question you asked. A lot of people would ask this, something like, can I get a promotion? Or is it in the cards this year for me to get a promotion? Those questions. There's a major issue the Issue is, you've asked a yes or no question. Can I get a raise or can I get a promotion? Is a yes or no question. And when you ask a yes or no question, what is the easiest answer for somebody to give you?
- [30:23]
Ilana Golan
No.
- [30:24]
Alex Carter
No. So instead, I like people to ask questions, and I have three magic ways that you can formulate what I call an open or a diagnostic question. These are the questions that research shows make people the most money, and they compel someone to give you a lot of information. So instead, you should be asking, what, how? And my favorite two magic words. Tell me. Okay, so, Ilana, what are the criteria for promotion? Or, Ilana, what is the process for promotion this year? How, Ilana, how can we work together to make the case? How can I help you with data or other evidence to show that this is the year I'm going to be promoted? And finally, it could be, tell me when the next time is that we should have this conversation. Tell me the format you'd like me to put together this information and tell me who else is involved in the decision that, that I might want to speak to. Tell me about the process. Those are questions that show command, they show leadership, they show collaboration, and they're impossible to say no to. Whoosh.
- [31:43]
Ilana Golan
That was so, so, so powerful, listeners. I want to make sure that you understand it. Every single thing Alex said is from the eyes of the person she's talking to. Right. It's not about you. It's about them. It's about making them successful and how it's the win, win. And what I love about what you say, Alex, is also how you steer the conversation, how you create that curiosity, ask a lot of questions, but you also say something really, really fundamental in your book and your TEDx, and you're actually taking them back and saying it all starts way before the negotiation. And it actually starts with you because it's so true. Right. We take ourselves out of the race way ahead of time.
- [32:26]
Alex Carter
Yes. The first half of Ask for More is the section that I call the mirror. And this is the section where we start the negotiation. Most of the time, people think negotiation starts from the moment that you and I are sitting down together and talking about my request for a promotion, but it doesn't. Negotiation starts at home with you, with that individual person and looking in the metaphorical mirror to ask yourself a few great questions so that you can go into that negotiation with the other person from a place of total clarity, total confidence, total command. So what does that look like when I sit down with myself I'm asking myself a few questions. First of all, I'm thinking about, okay, what's the problem I want to solve in what I'm about to ask Ilana for? Maybe I'm asking for this promotion because I want to show Ilana that I'm on a trajectory for the top. This promotion is part of where I want to go for the company. Maybe I want this promotion because I know it's going to expose me to types of clients or different types of leaders. They're going to help me grow. Maybe I want this promotion because I realized that that management team is lacking somebody with the skill set that I bring to the table. So all of that stuff helps you. Next, I would ask myself, what do I need? This is so important. And I call this, Ilana the needs audit. I want to sit down and ask myself, what are all the things I need in order to not just survive, but to thrive in my career? And I have people put them into two buckets. There's the tangibles, right? The things you can quantify, touch C or count. That might be my base compensation, my bonus if there's any stock. But beyond that, what's my title? What are the resources attached to this position? What's my head count? All of those different tangible buckets. But I don't stop there. I want each person also to think about, what are the intangibles that I'm looking for? Those values that make me feel fulfilled, that make my job life easier, worth living, a place I want to stay. If you've ever been in a job or a role where it was right on paper and felt deeply wrong in your guts, we've all been there. That is a sign that you've got some intangibles that are missing. So think things like, I need challenge, or I need autonomy, I need respect. And then thinking for yourself, what would challenge look like for me in a role? What would autonomy or freedom look like for me? And in the context of that, you are going to have such a complete list of needs that then when you're presented with offers, you are going to feel rock solid confidence about what works for you and what doesn't, because you're already there. The last thing I'll say, Ilana, that I think is really, really important, especially for people who might be lacking confidence or might be nervous going into this negotiation. I like you to ask yourself a really powerful question. It's how have I handled something like this successfully in the past? Because too often I find that even really credentialed brilliant professionals go in thinking, oh, God, last time this didn't work. Or, here's what I did wrong. And research actually shows that if you go in having thought about and written down a time when you did something similar successfully, not only is it like a power prime on your brain, so you're automatically feeling more powerful, more creative, more flexible, but it's data. It's going to tell you, when you write that down, Ilana, you're going to be reminded of who you are at your best as a negotiator. What are your best strategies? What are your best qualities? What can you lean into to be successful? And I've seen this question more than any other, break through those psychological barriers and have people go forth and get what they need.
- [36:43]
Ilana Golan
Ooh, I love that, Alex. Oh, my God, that was like slam dunk. You're actually nicer to your audience because we asked them to do the 50 reasons. So if 50, these 50 reasons, why you, why this, why now? It's like all the skills, all your connections, all the conviction, almost like a brag bank. Like, all the reasons why you're gonna be super fundamental for that because you're just gonna show up so differently. And I absolutely agree with you because it all starts with you. But let me take you there, because I know some of our listeners will say, well, but maybe it's relevant for promotion. But if I'm landing a job, I don't wanna rub them in the wrong way and I don't want them to hate me right off the bat, and I don't want them to think that I'm slimy. How do I negotiate at that point?
- [37:28]
Alex Carter
Okay, so what I want you to know, first of all, is that the default is people expect you to negotiate. Even during the height of the pandemic, Ilana, I remember speaking to lots of hiring managers who were saying, I have at least 10% more and no one's asking for it. So first of all, I would say default is people expect you to negotiate. Even with more salary transparency laws. Now, in the US there are laws in certain jurisdictions that say the band for this position is X to Y. Even within there, there's room to make the case for why you're at the top of the band. Okay, so I like to start. Remember, negotiation does not start with the numbers. It starts with your messages. It starts with using your words to teach people how to think about you and the value you bring long before you get to the numbers. So from the beginning, instead of just pitching myself, I'm asking The manager, Tell me about the company, tell me about the challenges, tell me about the opportunities you're seeing. I might even ask, you know, tell me the last superstar you hired and what made that person so effective. And in the course of asking all of these questions, I'm then in a position, when we get to negotiation, to say, you've said you're looking for this. You want somebody who can make an impact in this way. People who outperform at your company have these skill sets, and we are a perfect match. And I'm very excited about this opportunity. And what I want to know is my research about the market tells me the band is here. What can we do together, and how can I help you make the case for moving the comp to the place where market is for this position? So perfectly collaborative, right? And I have to tell you, Ilana, a lot of people think, what if they pull the offer? If they pull the offer, then that is a giant red flag about the organization. If you are negotiating collaboratively, if you are asking those questions, if you're doing your homework like I know everybody on this podcast is, and they say, oh, you negotiated, Consider yourself lucky and move to the place that's meant for you.
- [39:53]
Ilana Golan
You just dodged a bullet. And I agree. Oh, my God. Like, this episode is full of gold listeners. If this is helpful, do share it with others that need to hear it. But I will say, Alex, I think one of the key things that at least I find, I wonder what you're going to say is always negotiate if you can face to face or in some kind of a zoom or in some kind of a conversation, not through emails. I've seen a lot of cases where wording just gets off to the wrong areas and not really adjusted. Like people don't understand it well enough. So whenever possible, try to say, oh, my God, I want to work with you. I'm really excited about this opportunity. Yes. I want to talk about some things. Can we hop on a call so whenever we can steer it towards a conversation? Because I think the conversation makes it a thousand percent easier to negotiate and to speak your truth and to also understand how they're seeing it, looking in their eyes, you know, and kind of adjusting. What do you think, Alex?
- [40:51]
Alex Carter
Yes. Especially if you're going to have an ongoing working relationship going forward. I love to do either face to face or on a virtual platform where I can see, see the person. Because everything is data. The body language is data, the tone of the voice. Do you know, research shows actually that most of our emotion is carried through our voice. And so if you are attuned to little changes in people's voices, you might have a clue as to what's on their mind. I like to look at their facial expression. I like to look at what people have in their background. There have been times I'm negotiating with folks and I might look and say, are those birthday balloons in the background? And somebody says, yes, actually, my granddaughter just had a birthday. We are off to the races. We start talking. In negotiation, there is no small talk. It's all important. It's all building relationships. And, you know, in my background, there are things, especially if you have a wider screen, that tell you a bit about who I am and what I value. And I think all of that is really important. I would say there are instances where sometimes negotiating over email can be helpful if you think it's going to be very emotionally charged and that you're going to be able to put your points more linearly and say things the way you want to say them. With space to do so, email can be good. I've counseled a number of people who are negotiating severance who felt like it was too much to be on the phone or on zoom with someone. And email allowed there to be some distance. Right. So that you could take a pause and really think about how to put your best foot forward. Right. So most of the time, big fan, like you said of the in person or face to face, there are times when email can be very useful.
- [42:50]
Ilana Golan
That's super interesting for me to hear. I think as an Israeli, I'm a little too blunt in emails. I should probably do it.
- [43:00]
Alex Carter
I have to tell you. Can I just say, one of the fascinating things I find about negotiation is how different it can be jurisdiction to jurisdiction. And so this very successful German entrepreneur I know said, Alex, I just have a way of putting things sometimes that is not conducive to negotiation. She actually writes up the email and then puts it into an AI tool and says, do the following things to this. And she said, so they massage some of my language and then I'm able to send that out and not sound like I'm quite so strident. So there are lots of tools out there now for you to put your best foot forward. But it's also a lesson to your global audience, know who you're negotiating with. I've worked with a number of Israeli professionals and I'm originally from New York. We are both delightfully direct. Right. And there's something that's wonderful about that. When I negotiate in Other jurisdictions, like maybe in certain East Asian jurisdictions or certain African jurisdictions. So different people are a little bit more indirect. And so I have to think about, not that my way should always be right, but how can I negotiate in a way that's gonna feel appropriate for that person and they're gonna be able to hear me.
- [44:21]
Ilana Golan
Alex, I love, love, love, love, love this. What are some challenges that maybe you went through as sort of an entrepreneur that you feel sharing will actually really help our audience?
- [44:35]
Alex Carter
Some of the problems I went through initially counting myself out, because looking at the market out there and saying, well, maybe honestly, I'm a woman in a male dominated field and I'm a little younger. I'm not that young, Ilana. I cover my gray hair, but I'm still a little bit younger than perhaps your average negotiation keynote speaker out there. And knowing that what makes you different is actually your market differentiator, it's your greatest advantage. And so one of the challenges I went through initially was looking out there and counting myself out when really people needed me. And it was just a matter of finding the people for whom I was a match. And it turns out there were a lot of those people. So that was one of my psychological hurdles initially. Second challenge I would say, and let me be transparent on this, was pricing. Sometimes in certain industries, there's not a lot of transparency for entrepreneurs about what people charge. And here is where I found building relationships to be so important, because I was coming from academia. Academia, the pay scale for speaking engagements is totally different than it is in the private sector. And through building relationships, I realized that I was underselling myself. So it took me having relationships where I could call people and say, I just need to ask you directly, what are you charging and what are you seeing out there? And now I have a community of people where people reach out to me and say, I saw you worked for such and such a client. Do you mind telling me what you charged them? And I will share information, because this way we can all help each other make it a little bit more transparent.
- [46:34]
Ilana Golan
Ooh, I love that.
- [46:36]
Alex Carter
The last challenge I had, Ilana, was one that I imagine many of your earlier stage entrepreneurs or founders have, where I was doing it all myself, right? And I thought to myself, I got here because I did it myself, and that's the way it has to be. And then I had a student in my class who unbelievably changed the whole way I thought about entrepreneurship. This was a very wise student who'd been practicing already, and he said to me, Professor, I have a mantra. It's only do what only you can do. And I remember thinking, first of all, what a powerful statement about where you should go in your entrepreneurship. Where is it that only you can make an impact? Or Right. What are the areas where other people could make an impact? What are the areas where you can make an impact? But it also helped me delegate because I started thinking about over the course of a week, what are the things that only I can do? And everything else is an opportunity for someone else. Right? It's an opportunity for somebody else to grow in their career, for somebody else to operate in their zone of genius. And these days, now I have a number of people who work with me, both who support me in ask for more, but also a number of other trainers because I was saying no to certain opportunities because I was booked or the pricing didn't work. And I thought to myself, it's time to bring people on and open up the opportunity so that I'm doing the things only I can do. And everything else is a growth opportunity for someone.
- [48:13]
Ilana Golan
I look at it a little different and it's so aligned. So I just love that because I love putting a little bit of a number on your time. And to me, if we're growing, I'm at a leap academy, for example, so we're one of the fastest growing companies now in America. But if we're looking at, okay, how do you get to 20 million? Right? So if I'm going backwards, all I'm saying, I need to say, okay, every hour is roughly 10k ish. It sounds a lot. But every task that I'm doing that is not moving us to that scale is a waste. And now I can start looking at my time and saying, great, so who can take the things that are worth whatever, ten dollars, a hundred dollars, $1,000, right. I'm going to need to delegate them.
- [48:58]
Alex Carter
Yes. And by the way, Ilana, people are not paying $10,000 for an hour of your time. They're paying $10,000 for a lifetime of experience that allows you within one hour to deliver that much value or much more. That's what they're paying for. They're paying for the value, the sum total of your life's work, the impact of that.
- [49:24]
Ilana Golan
And I love that. And again, if you're in speaking, and for all of you listeners that you want to create this portfolio career with speaking and advising and board seats and all these beautiful things that exist now in the world, like if I'm a CEO, you know, of a billion dollar company. And I want to get my sales team just a little more motivated, and I believe that Alex will help them or somebody else will help them. Right. Like, even it just by 1%, this is already worth a million dollars to me. So $10,000, $20,000, it's irrelevant. So, yes, they want to pay you for the outcome of the results that you're delivering.
- [49:58]
Alex Carter
And I'll. I'll say that to clients, too, and say, if this is a big success, what does that look like six months or a year from now in your business? And then when they tell me it looks like, you know, we're developing more business, then my fee, which, by the way, is higher than the numbers you've mentioned. But, you know, and I've. I've grown now to the place where I think about, what's the number that's gonna make me thrilled to get on this plane and show up for this client and give them 110% of my time and energy and my wisdom in life's work. It's more. But if just one person in that audience, just one, takes what I said and lands one deal, my fee is a rounding error. Right. And so this is an easy value proposition, and it makes me feel so confident selling because I know we can work together and help you.
- [50:51]
Ilana Golan
Ah, I love that. And I love your conviction. I love everything about this episode. Alex, this is amazing. Maybe one advice to your younger self. You know, what do you wish you knew way earlier in your career?
- [51:05]
Alex Carter
I really wish I had known that who I am is more than enough. I think, like a lot of perfectionists, I always think about, well, I did that yesterday. What have I done today? Every day I wake up and I think I'm behind who I am. I don't need to be someone else. I am really powerful as I am, just like every single person in this audience, you are powerful just as you are. And I used to have a bit of. I hate this term imposter syndrome. I just like to think of it as your psyche hasn't caught up to your accomplishments. But I used to think that going out and saying who I was and being confident about that was bragging. And now I know better, because when I stand up and talk about who I am and what I can bring to the table, I open up opportunities to serve people. And so I want people to know on this podcast that there are people out there waiting for you right now, and they're waiting for something that nobody else but you can give them. And so when you stand up, when you believe in that. When you use your voice, when you know that who you are is more than enough, you open up an opportunity to serve the people who are waiting for you. And if you're listening to this and you're getting any value from it at all, know the only reason you're hearing me is that I took the leap a number of years ago and I wrote a book proposal in which I said, alex Carter is the world's leading negotiation trainer to the United Nations, Fortune 500 companies and organizations around the world. And I cringed as I wrote it. But I did write it and I put it in there. And now, as a result, we're speaking together. So get out there, don't make people wait any longer, and serve the folks who are waiting for you.
- [53:02]
Ilana Golan
Wow. That was powerful. Alex, everybody listening? First of all, I hope you enjoyed it. Let us know. And I want you to shine your light. I want you to find that voice. Somebody in the world needs to hear it. So let's go get it. I love that. Alex, thank you for the brilliant conversation.
- [53:19]
Alex Carter
Thank you for having me.
- [53:32]
Ilana Golan
I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. If you did, please share it with friends now. Also, if you're feeling stuck or simply want more from your own career, watch this 30 minute free training@leapacademy.com training. That's leapacademy. Com training. See you in the next episode of the Leap Academy with Ilana Golancho.