← Leap Academy with Ilana Golan
Leap Academy with Ilana Golan
NBCUniversal Vice Chairman, Bonnie Hammer: Breaking Myths About Climbing to the Top | E111
00:55:28
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- [00:00]
Bonnie Hammer
Wow.
- [00:00]
Ilana Golan
This show is going to be incredible. So buckle up and I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. But before we get started, I want to ask you for a favor. See, it's really, really important for me to help millions of people elevate their career. Fast track to leadership land, dream roles, jump to entrepreneurship, or create portfolio careers. And this podcast is all about enabling this for millions of people to see a map of what it actually takes for big leaders to reach success. So subscribe and download so you never miss it. Plus, it really, really helps me continue to bring amazing guests. Okay, so let's dive in.
- [00:36]
Bonnie Hammer
I can't imagine anybody accepting a job when they knew they were going to clean up dog shit. But I did it with a smile.
- [00:43]
Unknown Host
Bonnie Hammer, the queen of cable. Vice chairman of NBC Universal and an author of 15 Lies that Women are Told at Work.
- [00:54]
Bonnie Hammer
I never envisioned myself being even an independent producer or no less, eventually achie of departments at nbcu. But anytime something was offered, even if it sounded boring, I raised my hand and I said, I'll do it. I'll try it. Our world is not getting easier. Jobs are fewer. Take advantage of any and every situation that's open to you. Even if it seems like a pain in the butt. Do it because it could provide something that you would have never expected.
- [01:25]
Unknown Host
Our listeners, they all want more. More from their career, more impact, more possibilities. How do you get it?
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Bonnie Hammer
For me, it's just being.
- [01:46]
Unknown Host
Bonnie Hammer, the queen of cable. Just incredible story of how she reinvented networks like USA Sci Fi, Vice chairman of NBC Universal and an author of 15 Lies that Women are Told at work, which every single one of them, I'm like, check, check, check, check. So listen, it's gonna be an epic conversation. Bonnie, thanks for coming.
- [02:12]
Bonnie Hammer
Oh, I'm so delighted. But it's your life I'm most interested in, so we'll do that another time.
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Unknown Host
Another time for sure. But oh, my God, I was listening to your book. I just walk and listen. That's what I love to do.
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Bonnie Hammer
And I do the. Especially if it's in the person's voice. It's a whole other thing.
- [02:30]
Unknown Host
Totally, totally. Like, I'm literally talking to Bonnie and now she's here. So cool. But I want to take you back in time because you talk about actually liking photography. So I want to take you back in time. Talk to me about photography because the big conversation is about leaping and how did you morph into the queen that you became.
- [02:50]
Bonnie Hammer
So it goes back in time Queen. I don't know about that, but that is okay, I guess. I had a passion when I was very, very young to tell a story or capture my friends in an image. So when I was very young, I was gifted a little Brownie camera. I think it cost. I don't. It was well under maybe many 12 bucks at the time. And I went everywhere with this little Brownie camera and Kodak film. And from 12 years old on, I loved it. And it was probably in early college that I got my first real camera, which was an icon, or actually a Nikkor Matte, the smaller version of an icon. And I was hooked. And so I went to school. I was in photojournalism as an undergraduate, graduated and was determined to be a photographer. So I had multiple jobs, one in a photography studio in Boston, which was wonderful, except I was in the darkroom literally eight to ten hours a day. And those days you had these great little manicures, but my nails were all yellow from the hypo, from the chemicals. Because it wasn't digital those days. It was chemicals, literally.
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Unknown Host
Yeah.
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Bonnie Hammer
I then graduated to shoot alongside him or actually hand him the props that he was shooting with and realized that I didn't like the darkroom. Now I don't like shooting artificial images. It was fake flowers, fake moisture, fake lighting. So it became clear that I liked taking stories that were organic and natural. And I chased for probably a fraction of a second ambulances and realized I didn't like this. So it was. And then I was a photo editor for Houghton Mifflin, which meant I was taking other people's photographs, putting them together with other people's words in a book. That was really boring. So what does a girl do? She goes back to graduate school and decides, okay, I need another year to think. And it was while in graduate school, I was taking a practicum, which meant I was working freelance, which meant I was working for free, taking pictures of kids on a television set. And I loved the set. I fell in love with what was going on, and I was very lucky. They had let go of a couple of production assistants on one day, they asked if I wanted a job, and that was it.
- [05:28]
Unknown Host
And I want to go there for a second because I think this is really, really interesting. And you talk a lot about chasing the opportunities that come your way, not necessarily the dream. And eventually you are a storyteller, just in a different way. Right. So this photography and everything that you loved actually chased you all your life, which is a really fun thread to see, but it just not at the same way that you would think about it at the age of 18. Am I right?
- [05:53]
Bonnie Hammer
That's exactly right. When my dream was to be a photographer. You really can't dream what you don't know and you can't be what you can't see.
- [06:01]
Unknown Host
Exactly.
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Bonnie Hammer
So my image of what a day and date photographer is, is or was, was completely far from reality of what that job was. However, once I was on a set and there were other people, it wasn't a singular entity where I was the only one out there. I was dealing with people, even though some of them were 9 year olds and a dog.
- [06:25]
Unknown Host
We'll talk about that for sure. Because I was cracking up when you shared that video.
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Bonnie Hammer
You know, it was exciting to me, but I never thought about television. I never thought about being on a set. It just wasn't in my worldview because I never saw it, I never experienced it. So I think people get caught up in early dreams even before they have a clue of whether it fits them. I love that. And only by tripping into opportunities and being open to opportunities can you actually find out what you're comfortable with, what you're good at, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert. You want to be around people, you want to be alone. That's how you learn. And that's the only way to find out, is try it.
- [07:08]
Unknown Host
I love that so much. And a big part of Leap Academy, or what we do, is to try to give these blueprints of what these different careers can look like. And for you to experiment and try the shoes on. Right. Try different things, but take me there.
- [07:23]
Bonnie Hammer
I should steal Leap Academy because I believe in it. Totally. So had I known that word before, I probably would have used it more.
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Unknown Host
Well, it didn't exist. So we're gonna partner on something there. But take me there. So you are taking this internship because I think this is also really important, is be all in no matter what. And this is a big theme in your career as well. Right. So take me to that internship.
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Bonnie Hammer
So I got this job as a production assistant. I was the youngest, most green. Cause I didn't know a thing about television. And everybody got one of the kids to support. The other production assistants had a kid to support because I was the youngest. I got the dog, which was Nepo Hire. It was the producer's untrained sheepdog that was part of the cast. And I got that dog. Now, mind you, we were in a union crew. They do not pick up dog poop. I had, literally and figuratively, a crappy job. I was following this dog around this, trying to. Obviously, I wasn't showing him scripts, but I had a poop bag. Or that time there were no poop bags. Actually, I had a funny little kind of baby shovel and this thing that I had to scrape the poop into and then go to the actual garbage can and drop it off. So, yes, my first job was a very, very crappy job.
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Unknown Host
Literally a shitty job.
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Bonnie Hammer
Literally, shitty job. I was trying to be good with my words here. Sorry. But I did it with a smile. I did it because I felt I was so lucky to be in an environment. The lights were on, there were cameras, there was an adorable director who was directing the cast. So it was an experience I couldn't have been exposed to. And though in hindsight I understand that people want to be around people who are happy, who have a good attitude, who. Who are willing to do anything, I don't think I was conscious about that then, but I felt just so lucky. It was also a time where young women working post college wasn't necessarily a given. Those days. You went to college and you got your Mrs. I was lucky to have a job and a job that was fun and a job that was in a media industry. So I felt so proud and so lucky that I would have done anything at that point.
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Unknown Host
Did you see yourself climbing up the ladder and proving yourself, or was it just like, let me soak in?
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Bonnie Hammer
Absolutely not. I had no clue of even what that ladder was, where that ladder went, what the jobs, other than the few that were around me in that situation, was all about. So I kind of tripped and stumbled into a career just because, A, I wanted to work, I wanted to earn my own money. I didn't come from money. And I felt that wherever it would lead me, I would go to learn and to, in a sense, try to have a good time while I made a living for myself. But, no, I never envisioned myself being even an independent producer, no less, eventually a chair of departments at nbcu. It just wasn't in my purview.
- [10:50]
Unknown Host
I want you to take us there. And one of the things you mention in the book, which I thought, I don't know if I thought about it, but it was so brilliant and I think it's so important, is that even though you were an internship and running after a dog, you were still looking at what other people were doing. And I think that curiosity is actually really, really important because, again, what you can't see cannot become correct. So even just looking at it is already a few steps Further, I was.
- [11:20]
Bonnie Hammer
Curious, I must admit. I was always curious about what does a director actually do? What does an editor actually do? I didn't learn that in college, so it was something that was intriguing to me. But more importantly was anytime something was offered, even if it sounded boring, I raised my hand and I said, I'll do it, I'll try it. Just because I wanted to understand all of the elements of what it takes to do whatever it is to put a TV show together. I never pretended that I knew how to do it. But I think the attitude of wanting to learn how to do it and ask questions and not be arrogant about it and be assumptive about it was what gave me those opportunities. It was raising my hand and saying, yeah, give it to me. I'll try. I've never done it, but I'll try.
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Unknown Host
Yeah, so let's go there because I think that's also why you got the full time role right after the internship. So take us through that career journey a little bit. How did that look?
- [12:28]
Bonnie Hammer
It was zigging and zagging a lot. Partially because the first TV show was a public broadcasting show. Unlike abc, NBC, cbs, all the networks, you didn't get hired as a production assistant or an associate producer. You got hired by a project. Those projects only lasted for the number of episodes you produced. And then you were in a sense unemployed. So in order to stay employed, I would take what ever that company had, regardless of what it was, what the title was, what the area of expertise was. So in between my first job, Infinity Factory and Zoom, I didn't know what I was going to do and I applied to be a production assistant for Zoom. I didn't get it. It went to somebody internally, but because of my attitude, they said, would you be a post production supervisor? And I said, what's post production supervisor? And they said, well, it's editing the half inch versions of the show before it goes to real editors. And I said sure. I'd never edited anything in my life. I didn't even know what half inch videotape was, but I did it. And then I kind of cozied up to the director of Zoom and said, can you teach me? And he said absolutely. So he taught me how to do the half inch editing and. And then I would have to go down to the big techs in the editing room where they edited 2 inch videotape. We're talking about ancient stuff here. And they taught me how to edit. In those days it wasn't computerized, it was edit snap. You see I want the edit there and all of a sudden that's where your edit goes. So I learned literally from the bottom up how to edit half inch videotape to two inch videotape, to eventually computerized editing, which the same director taught me. And it gave me a breadth of experience and knowledge that most people going into the television world, where you're overseeing programming rather than making it, usually doesn't know or understand. So what I learned from that, and again, it's more in hindsight that creating what I view as a spiderweb rather than a ladder. If you create a web where you learn, you basically get skills to the right of what you think you're going to do, to the left of it, take a step backwards because you don't have a job and you need a job to learn a little bit about technology while you wait for the real job, that your skill set becomes so ginormous that it does two things. One is if and when you become a leader, you've kind of started from the bottom up, so you know what every single person on your team and your staff does.
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Unknown Host
Incredible.
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Bonnie Hammer
So you can both help grow them, but you also know when something isn't being done well and you have real insight into the day and date. The other piece of it is when your world completely gets shattered. The business shuts down, you get merged, which happened to me six or seven times. Or right now, AI comes in and takes a job. You have another skill set which you can go to if your job goes away. So it's valuable.
- [15:50]
Unknown Host
And I think what you just said is really important. I think it's important for the listeners, viewers, because right now, sometimes people feel like they're generalist and they're not specialists. And I don't believe you can manage well things that you told you don't understand. So I think, especially if you actually touched it, you don't need to be the best at it. Absolutely not. Because you're going to hire really good people. But if you touch the different things, you can actually manage it better. And I love that.
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Bonnie Hammer
Ilana, you're 100% right. If you don't know what the people alongside you and beneath you, who you're trying to grow do, you can't critique them, you can't help grow them, you can't even evaluate what you're doing properly. But when you've done all these little things, even the ridiculous tasks, it gives you insight into what you expect and it really helps the clarity in terms of growing these other people and also your own expertise of making a product, be it a show or anything else, better because, you know, it can be better because you've done it right. And that's really important. It's interesting. I've been reading Barry Diller's book, too, and he grew up that way. And I think the reason he's as brilliant as he is, he started at the very, very bottom as an assistant, but obviously now we're talking about a multi billionaire who's a genius. But nevertheless, that's his view as well.
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Unknown Host
So take me there, Bonnie, because sometimes people will listen or see this and they'll say, well, she just got somehow lucky and people just pulled her all the way to vice chairman and advisor to the CEO. Right? Talk to me about the hard moments that actually shaped you.
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Bonnie Hammer
There were so many different moments along the way. There's no way that luck didn't play a part of it, but it's just taking advantage of the moment when you step into a lucky situation, even if it's painful. I mean, there's so many different things that didn't necessarily work out my way, but I took advantage of what it was. First and foremost. I think the thing that scares most people right now are working with people who are tough on them. And for me, what shaped my life were the challenging mentors in my life. And the challenging mentors are foils. They are sparring partners. They're the people who put the tough in tough love. And without them, I don't think you can truly grow to the capacity that you are capable of without people who can help show you that you're actually capable of more than you believe you are actually capable of. And for me, as I mentioned a minute ago, Barry Diller was one of those challenging mentors that I have. And to this day, I view him still as a mentor, and I'm his mentee. And that's after 30 years of knowing this guy. He taught me how to think. He taught me how to just look at anything I was about to do and question it upside down, inside out, any way before I gave it a green light. An example. I was working for Barry, and he had recently made me president, Sci Fi Channel. I had been general manager before that of Syfy, and then just a vice president of original programming for usa. And we were about to greenlight a show with a psychic, and these are way before we had iPhones or anything portable. He decided to send me an email on my computer on a Friday, late afternoon on a Friday, and said, explain something to me. If psychics are real, why would they be on the Sci Fi Channel? And if a psychic isn't real, why the hell are we in business with him anyway? And so we went back and forth. I was trying to convince him why Sci Fi channels should do a show on a psychic. And I was about to give up on Sunday night when I finally said, okay, this is my last try, and I'll just tell him it was a show with John Edwards, that we're not gonna go ahead. And I said, okay, Barry, neither you or I or anybody can prove that a psychic is real. It's in the eye of the beholder. It's anyone who chooses to believe in intuition or psychic capability is the only thing that matters. So a psychic lies somewhere in between fact and friction. Let's call it friction. And wouldn't that be perfect for the Sci Fi Channel? And he goes, okay, your arguments win. Go.
- [20:53]
Unknown Host
Whoa, nice.
- [20:54]
Bonnie Hammer
So he would teach you to think things out. And what Barry was brilliant at, if it failed, he wouldn't care if he knew that you thought it through from every corner, and that's all he cared about. And we did a similar thing with a show called Taken with Steven Spielberg, where he would question everything about this show about aliens. And at one point, I had to say, I don't think the script is good enough. We're not gonna go. And he was gonna then have to tell Steven the script wasn't good enough. We weren't going. Steven ultimately admitted, oh, he didn't even bother reading it. It was just one of his writers. We went back to the script, created what, in a sense, I stole from Barry's early days. Nobody was doing limited series anymore. Nobody was doing what Barry did in the 80s, kind of almost a movie of the week. This was a limited series. And in the 11th hour, the salespeople on my teams were saying, you gotta put this into a regular series. We cannot do a limited series. You can't air this. It was gonna be two hours a night for 10 nights, Sunday through Thursday. Sunday through Thursday. So I called Barry. I said, listen, we're getting a lot of flack. This is September. This is gonna air in December. He said, let me see the first episode. I said, okay, sent in the first episode. He writes me in his typical style, an email in like 24 point orange, all cap types. Honey, if all of the episodes are as gluly compelling, I think you have a hit on your hands. Screw the world. Go.
- [22:35]
Unknown Host
Wow.
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Bonnie Hammer
So again, it was. He taught me how to think and push back and go. So I was very.
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Unknown Host
That's incredible. And you talk about it in the book. We like leaning on the fun mentors, the people that only fluff us and say, way to go, way to go, Ilana, you couldn't do this, right? But actually, you can learn a lot from the people that challenge you.
- [22:58]
Bonnie Hammer
When I call the supporting mentors, it's wonderful to have people who are going to pat you on the back. I think it's necessary that you have those cheerleaders around you, and they're the kind that kind of get you to want to at least be in the game. And I think that's great. You know, my father was pretty much a supportive mentor. My brother was the challenging mentor in my life. But it was like what Barry and great challenging mentors do. The cheerleaders get you ready for the game. The drill sergeants get you prepared and help you win the war. And that's how I view it. But you have to be willing to hear things that aren't always going to feel good. You have to be willing to be open to be critiqued and criticized with the belief that 90% of the people aren't trying to hurt you or hurt your feelings, and they're trying to get you ready to really grow and open your eyes and push you to your capabilities. Especially now, in our culture, you can't push people. You can't say tough things to people, even if you try to say it politely. Right now, in our culture, the HR departments shy away from any form of. Of seeming negative critique or criticism. And I think that's hurting the young kids growing up in the industries, any industry right now. And they're basically taught to be afraid to hear stuff that isn't wonderful.
- [24:32]
Ilana Golan
If you're feeling stuck, underpaid, or unappreciated, or you're simply ready to take your career in life to the next level, I have the perfect solution for you. We have a program that helps you fast track and leap your reputation and career. Become the best version of yourself, get the dream role you deserve, move up to leadership, jump to entrepreneurship, or even build a portfolio career. This program helps hundreds a year, and it will help you gain the income, influence, and impact that will transform the.
- [25:03]
Unknown Host
Second part of your life.
- [25:04]
Ilana Golan
Watch our free training today@leapacademy.com free training. The link is in the show notes. Now back to the show.
- [25:13]
Unknown Host
I do want to go to your brother for a second because I think it's a great story, but also I think our ultra sandwich. Everything is good. Maybe a little bit of feedback but in general, you pat it with so much goodness. I remember my kids would get these awards for doing practically nothing, and I was just like, I ran an entire Ironman, and I barely got a thing. Why are they getting these big trophies? What is happening?
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Bonnie Hammer
It is. I blame my generation. I blame my friends, my whole generation, because we created participation trophies that you don't have to play in the game. You just have to show up. You get a trophy. A is for effort. You hand in a homework assignment. You handed it in, but it sucks. But you still hand it in. You get an A for effort. And now we have safe spaces. You don't want to hear something. Oh, you don't have to. Or even. I was watching something or listening to something yesterday, and it said, please, if you're listening to this, you might hear some. Oh, it was a spinning class. I was on my peloton bike, and I was doing a class, and they were using some old world rock music, and they had one of those safe space notices. Some of the language in these songs may offend you. Oh, come on. And I went, what? I'm doing a spinning class in my home on my bike, listening to music from 30 years ago, and the words are gonna be offensive. That's crazy. That is crazy. So anyway, I have this thing about how we overprotect our kids right now. And guess what? Our world is not getting easier. It's getting harder. It's getting darker. It's getting more complicated. Jobs are fewer. They have to learn how to navigate difficult times. And some of the stuff we did crippled them.
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Unknown Host
I totally agree. And that's why I liked your story for your brother with the skiing. Talk about that story, because I think it's important.
- [27:19]
Bonnie Hammer
All right. So as I said, my father was the supportive mentor. His line to me was always, if you can't do something, Bon, you're simply not trying hard enough. Keep trying. But that was it. Never, ever negatively criticizing anything. A real supportive. My brother is four years older than I am, but was two years ahead of himself in school, so he had to toughen up. Because when you're young and you're that advanced, you're dealing with kids who are far older than you and far more experienced in everything in your life. So I was, I think, can't remember whether I was 14 or 16. I went skiing with my brother and a friend of his from medical school, and. And so they basically. First time on skis ever. So they take me up to the top of a chairlift, and my brother looks at me and says, see at the bottom, sis? And I went, what? He said, see at the bottom? And he takes off. So I can't even take two steps. His friend Don comes back up about 15, 20 minutes later, sees me about 2 inches from where the chairlift left us off, and he got me down to an intermediate slope where I was snow plowing inside. His skis down. And then he finally left and he said, I think you can make it from here. So I probably an hour later, which should have taken about a five or seven minute run, got down to the bottom and I was furious at my brother. I came down screaming, him, what were you doing? I could have killed myself. You're out of your mind. And he goes, you're down here, right? Yeah. Did you fall? No. You survived? Yeah. See ya. Told you you could do it. That was my brother. So I grew up semi prepared for the challenging mentors in my life. I didn't realize it then, but in hindsight, he set the tone.
- [29:16]
Unknown Host
Right. And I love this story, first of all, because I have a similar story, but not because of a brother, because I didn't understand English. So my first lesson, I saw a line, so I just went up the big thing. And I didn't realize that all the little kids were like, you know, anyway, so I just didn't understand enough English to understand what they were telling me. So I found myself up the mountain and I needed somebody to take me down. So first of all, it was like, yeah, the whole way. Like she was like reversing the whole way and I was just like plowing through. So it was such a similar story. I was just like, this is so weird. But what I love about this is I think in life you have to scrape your knees and you have to basically push yourself and do things. And I think that was such a beautiful story.
- [30:01]
Bonnie Hammer
Better than you knows that. Excuse me. A fighter pilot. F16. The first woman to command. Excuse me. Yeah. I want to hear your stories. I'm coming back here to interview you.
- [30:16]
Unknown Host
We'll do that. But seriously, to me, that was like a small story. But that's exactly the pattern in your life.
- [30:23]
Bonnie Hammer
Yes.
- [30:23]
Unknown Host
Which I love. And I think it's such an important for everybody listening. Right. Because we never gonna have all the map, we never gonna have all the tools, we never gonna have all the help. Eventually you're gonna need to try different things and you're gonna hope that you don't fall. And if you do fall, hopefully you.
- [30:39]
Bonnie Hammer
Get up and get the snow off the knees and clean those booths off and try again.
- [30:45]
Unknown Host
Right again. Because from there, you did go to NBC Universal and you have some amazing story, and you met the Kim Kardashian and, you know, like, you have all these cool stories. Take me a little bit to that route. And what were some of these? Did you ever have, like, oh, my God, I don't know if I can do this. Did you have the scary moments?
- [31:06]
Bonnie Hammer
With few exceptions, I think we all fear or feel like imposters at some point in our life. And if I were to say that every time I got an opportunity, whether it was in the early days of just taking on Sci Fi or being given USA and Sci Fi under me, where I'm running the whole thing, you always somehow feel a trepidation that, ooh, this time I could fail. But what gets you going is what I believe in is not faking it, pretending I know everything. It's facing the fact I don't. And my line to myself is I don't ever have to be the smartest one in the room. I just have to have them on speed dial. And so it's surrounding yourself with really good people, not being afraid to give them the credit for what they bring to the table, not being afraid that they may outsmart you. But if you treat people well, if you give them the credit that's due them, you can surround yourself with the best, most creative, most talented people, and as a team, succeed at almost anything and everything. And I think that probably was my biggest strength throughout my entire career. Not being afraid to surround myself with people who in their skill set or in their worlds, were a lot smarter than I was, and then getting them to work together collaboratively without personal agendas to create something great. And I've been very lucky. I've had amazing teams, many of whom have been with me for decades, and just good human beings that were super talented and understood that if you work together, you can succeed far better than if you try to grab credit and do things alone.
- [33:08]
Unknown Host
Talk to me a little bit about changing the hat that you're wearing. Right? Because I think there's a lot of. Initially you do a lot of the work, then later you start managing more people and it's more emotional intelligence and more other things or project management. Your skills change based on what you're actually supposed to do and where you are in the hierarchy. Talk to me a little bit about it.
- [33:31]
Bonnie Hammer
But it goes back to what we talked about before. If you've done so many different things, you have a little bit more than just an intuitive knowledge about what's going on. But I think a good portion of my success became, again with years, the ability to read our own and the ability to read people. And we went through six or seven different corporate changes. I had eight different bosses as a more senior person. And so many of my peers either fought it or left or assumed they should be doing or be the same person they were before and would constantly see obstacles or walls in front of them. Where for me, it was, okay, let me see how I can fit into this specific world. So I studied the situation. I tried to figure out who my new boss was, figure out what the new culture was. Was this a group of people who were into the creative content, or were these people who only cared about the bottom line? Were these people who you needed to report every birth to, or these people who wanted you to do things on your own and just report inappropriately and with every single regime change? You know, my original boss, Kay Koplovitz's in the world were a 180 from the Barry Dillers, who were 180 from the Jeff Zuckers, who were 180 from the Brian Roberts. Every single time, it was a completely different culture that I had to figure out, they're not going to match my culture. I had to match theirs and then push that down to my team so they understood what the new bottom line was. Even though they would keep doing their jobs well, they had to know how to present differently.
- [35:30]
Unknown Host
So it's that adaptability, essentially, that continuously.
- [35:35]
Bonnie Hammer
Help and just being willing to just say, okay, this isn't about me, it's about them. It's change. Don't fight it, just embrace it and.
- [35:44]
Unknown Host
Figure out how to fit in, share a hard moment. Because I think in leadership, we all have some hard moments. Whether we need to lay off a team or, you know, a project is canceled or whatever. Share a hard moment. Because I'm. I'm curious about how you cope with those.
- [36:00]
Bonnie Hammer
I've learned with time. To be honest, there are many difficult moments in my career, but the one that I think taught me the most in its odd way, was we had just launched a show called Political Animals. It was maybe three or four months after one of these corporate changes. I had a brand new boss who didn't know me at all. And this show, star, it was kind of based to some degree on Hillary Clinton trying to break in to be president at the time, but it was total fiction. And Sigourney Wewa was the lead of the show. Ellen Burstyn was another fabulous talent in the show we did zero research on it because we thought it was of the moment, edgy, smart. It was written extremely well. And when we got the ratings back, I would always get them very, very early in the morning. I had a great research guy who would call me at 6:30 in the morning before anything was public and say, yes, what's going on? So he called me and I said, did you get the decimal point wrong? We expected that this would be over a 5 rating. It felt like it was a 0.5 and I wasn't quite sure what to do because I was in a Brianna situation. So I said, I just have to deal with it straight and honestly. And I remember sending an email before any information was out and this was to my new boss at the time, Steve Burke. And I said, Steve, I have no clue how this happened. These are the ratings, this is what went on. The only hypothesis I could think about was we mistitled it or didn't do the right research. But before you hear from anyone else, this sucks. And I found out later in the week that he handed that email to his boss, Brian Roberts, and to the HR person and said, this is the kind of people I want to have around. They're honest, they're going to tell me the truth. And what happened was after that, because I was so honest early on, whenever I said something positive or pushed for something, he trusted it and bought into it. How you deal with tough situations. And again, it's to me, if you are honest, if you are willing to be vulnerable, the trust level just gets higher and higher. The other tough time for me where I try to extract something out of a situation I had been pretty much promised running NBC broadcast, which was really the special gig. I was a cable gal and cable was always viewed as the stepchild. Even though we made especially at that point, so much more money because we had both distribution and ad revenue than broadcasted. But that was still the gig and I didn't have it. So I was pretty much promised that I was going to get that job and very excited about it. And even though I knew it was going to be tough in so many different ways, and it was literally this weekend and a gazillion years ago, but it was Memorial Day weekend. At that time, a good friend, colleague, it was Ron Meyer was on the plane going back from New York to LA with Jeff Zucker on the plane who found out on Saturday that I was not going to get the job. They were going to give it to somebody 10 years my junior who had virtually no Experience because they wanted to swing for the fences. So I remember Ronnie calling me on Saturday and said, you're probably not going to hear till Tuesday, which was the first real day of work again. But I want you to know, because you need to prepare yourself, you're not getting it. And I was just pissed, cried, whatever, over the weekend. And then Tuesday morning came and the HR guy was waiting at my door in New York. Jeff and others were in la, and the first thing he did was double my salary because he knew I wasn't gonna get, you know, I'm not getting the job. And they didn't wanna lose me at the time. But what I did was I brokered it into something I wanted. I basically said, listen, I've been not lied to so much as led to believe this was gonna happen. It's not. What I really want is a studio. I want you to give me a cable studio where we can make and produce our own shows, not have to go to the NBC studio or outside studios. And I will stay. Yes. Obviously, I'm gonna take the money you're offering me, but if you give me this, which is something new and fresh, and I got a studio, so I learned that if you are confident and comfortable in what you do, you could actually basically take that and ask for what you really want. If you're promised something and don't get it, but it's the style and tone in which you do it, I didn't demand, I didn't say, I'm going to quit tomorrow, I kind of savvied it through and I learned a lot about, okay, you don't get what you want, turn what you didn't get into something you want. And it was great. And the studio was the best thing for me. And the guy who did get the job was fired two years later. But I did find out many years later why, and it was because the cable group was making so much money, they were afraid to have me go to broadcast and then lose money, potentially lose money on the cable side.
- [41:32]
Unknown Host
I love this because I think also in your book, you talk about not knowing what you're worth, but creating your worth, or I don't know how exactly you say it, but that's kind of. When you share that story, you essentially created your worth, and I think that's so powerful.
- [41:48]
Bonnie Hammer
But Alana's, you know, you can do that later in life when you start out, then when you think about the kids and it goes back to the.
- [41:56]
Unknown Host
Early story, you have nothing.
- [41:57]
Bonnie Hammer
Yeah, you absolutely. When you think about the kids going in there, you, you do, you, you can never take away personal worth. You were born with personal worth, but you have to earn professional worth. And the kids coming out of school right now, they kind of grunt at grunt work. I can't imagine anybody accepting a job when they knew they were gonna clean up dog shit. But these days you've got to basically do that. And it's not so much later in your career where you actually have professional worth, which you can use to turn that into something you want. But again, it's the style in which you do it. If you're cocky, if you're arrogant, if you just feel entitled to something, it's not going to happen. But if you know how to ask for it, if you know the word I like is a form of chutzpah, it's gutzpah. It is basically when you have the healthy chutzpah, you basically are confident but not cocky. You go after something where you believe you can get it, but in a style that makes other people want to give it to you.
- [43:08]
Unknown Host
I always hire for hunger versus skills. Obviously you want some kind of zone of genius will match something that they're doing right. But in general, I can teach most of the things, but if they're not hungry, it's never going to happen anyway. And if they are hungry, they're going to hunger.
- [43:24]
Bonnie Hammer
How do you determine hunger when you interview somebody?
- [43:27]
Unknown Host
First of all, we found a few questions that will filter at least the lazy. It could be really simple. Like for us, sometimes we just gonna ask, first of all, are you an A player? And if they just say yes, they're out. You know, I'm like, did you think of elaborating, right? Or it's even funny, like why would you wanna work here? And we don't say here what it is. 70% will not bother to check what the company is doing. It's incredible to see how many people you can filter by just saying here versus Leap Academy, whatever you like. Well, you know what I'm saying, like, it's amazing. So first of all, it still doesn't show hunger, but it filters the noise, which is not bad at all. And then there's obviously some things that I will look at, but sometimes I like to ask what is one of the hardest things that they had to cope with. Because I have to say that I think and I take some guilt as a parent now. It's interesting because I had to cope with a lot as a kid. Again, I came from decent family and everything, right? But there was a lot to cope with. And I feel like now we created this environment where we try to create everything for our kids. We want them to have the money, we want them to have the beautiful home and a life without problems. But then when we create that, we essentially create kids with no resilience. Not hungry, not. You know, and I'm looking at my kids and I'm like, on one hand they're beautiful and they're amazing and I love them to the moon and back, but they didn't need to cope with a lot, right? So the hunger, they won't.
- [45:07]
Bonnie Hammer
How old are the kids right now?
- [45:08]
Unknown Host
18 and 16.
- [45:09]
Bonnie Hammer
All right, so you're at the point where heading to college. I know exactly what you're thinking. My Jesse's now going to be 32 when he came out of college and his first job was going to be in the mailroom of an agency. And boy, did he whine and complain, you know, ma, they're not letting me use my brain. Well, what did you think? You took a job in the mailroom, you know, but we did do this to our kids. We want them to feel comfortable and protected. And I think in many ways we've overprotected them. And we very differently grew up without that kind of protection because it wasn't in our parents vocabulary. My parents were Russian immigrants. All they wanted to do was make sure I got educated and got to college. I was traveling on subways when I was nine years old alone from Queens, Manhattan. They never thought twice about it. I wouldn't let my hand do that.
- [46:11]
Unknown Host
So it's true. So I think we're guarding them, but it is taking some of the hunger away. And I see it right. And I wonder how do you bring back. Because hunger is not necessarily something that you can pay your way right into. Hunger, you need them to be hungry. And it might be also something that with time, you know, a different DNA will create the hunger. But I don't know.
- [46:33]
Bonnie Hammer
I think part of it is. But recently I got a call from a friend who's wanted to know if there was any way I could help perhaps get them into NBC in any way, shape or form. And after over a bunch of questions, it turns out that it's a very, very smart guy. Undergraduate school, graduate school, then was working in a lab at Yale. Lot of stuff put together. And he was 29 and never had a real job. Our friends were still paying his rent, still taking care of all of his bills. So they removed the hunger. If you're basically at that age, in a sense, overprotecting because you don't want them to be uncomfortable. Why should they be hungry? They don't need to be. So again, I think because we are so afraid of throwing them out there. Where we grew up, where it was just organic that we were out there, no one was coming to put the hood over our head if it started to rain. We've taken a giant step, probably too far when it does. Go to your point of why should they be hungry?
- [47:51]
Unknown Host
So, Bonnie, with that in mind, when we're talking to people, our listeners, they all want more for themselves. They all want more for their career, more impact, more growth, more titles, more possibilities. What more would you share with them to say, how do you get it?
- [48:11]
Bonnie Hammer
I think for me it's just being open to all opportunities out there. Even if something bores you, you're gonna meet new people, every person you meet at some point, you'll be shocked how and where they come back in your life. Just raise your hand for any possibility at anything you could possibly do, even if it seems menial, because again, the attitude will get you further than you ever expect. A friend of mine, another friend, literally his son just getting out of an Ivy League school, applied through their portal to 200 different jobs, didn't get a single possibility for an interview, a real interview, partially because unfortunately, so many of these portals and companies now use AI to basically call through residents, which is crazy. There's no longer any eq. It's all about AI. And finally a friend said, listen, we have a no show at one of these weird dinners where it's a meet and greet dinner. Can you come? The kid basically rented a car, drove 200 miles to be at this dinner in chit chatting with somebody in the room. He actually got a job interview, which ended up getting him the job. So it's take advantage of any and every situation that's open to you. Even if it seems like a pain in the butt, do it and go. Because it could provide something that you would have never expected. And again, it goes back to earning your worth. No matter how smart you are, no matter what school you've come from, no matter what your former title was, it's just all about taking an opportunity, keeping the right attitude, and being open to anything that surrounds you.
- [50:07]
Unknown Host
Right? And I think in Leap Academy we also see that I have not, at least in the last two years, I have not seen people really find jobs from a job board. Like it is all hidden market. It's who you know, who's Going to bring you in the room. Right. What are you known for? And starting to be really intentional about it. But if somebody's asking you, like, how do you get into the entertainment business? Because that is a very different, like it's a hard business. It's all connections, I assume. How do you get into that?
- [50:39]
Bonnie Hammer
I don't think there's any one way of doing it. It's Dana, my coordinator. She basically tried a variety of different ways. She finally got into the page program, which is this do again. It is the perfect way to screen somebody who's gonna be ready or not for the media industry. Because you do everything from seating people, literally doing nothing but showing up at a late night show and seating the audience to collating or what used to be collating scripts to running for coffee for doing anything and everything. And you get noticed because you also go from department to department to department over a year period of time. And it's those people in that situation when they're looking for their first assistant. Oh, I remember that one. I liked her attitude. Let's try her out. So there's no one way in. But it's taking advantage of anyone and everyone you meet. It's making cold calls. But when you call again, instead of being assumptive and arrogant, basically say, hey, I'd love your help. Anything you can create a connection. What can you do? Do you know anyone I can speak to? I will do anything. And it's the style in which you reach out to those people which will get them to give you or connect you either cyber or by phone to 2 people or 20 people.
- [52:12]
Unknown Host
Amazing.
- [52:13]
Bonnie Hammer
But it's not easy anymore. It's getting harder and harder and harder.
- [52:17]
Unknown Host
To rise above the noise. Yeah. Like basically hustle and create your own luck, I guess. And Bonnie, one of my favorite questions. If you would meet Bonnie earlier in your career, what would you tell her now in retrospect? Well, some of it is your book. I assume you would just read her the book.
- [52:36]
Bonnie Hammer
Yeah. So much of what's in the book and who I am and the comfort in my own skin that I have now is only in hindsight. And I think that people need to understand that in the moment, more often than not, things are not going to feel super comfortable. You will always at some point feel. Feel like you're an imposter, but so does everyone else. And I think one of the things that's larger than life in the book is the belief that you can have it all. And there's no such thing as having it all. You know when people say to me, well, you have it all. You have a family, you have a good husband, you have a life, you've been successful. But it's only in hindsight you have.
- [53:27]
Unknown Host
It all, just not at the same time.
- [53:29]
Bonnie Hammer
You can have it all not at the same time. But even more importantly, Alana, your all and my all are two different things. So for me to measure myself against what you think makes you happy and truly is part of your world is just wrong. Because no matter how much we might like each other and have similar experiences.
- [53:52]
Unknown Host
We do like each other. We do.
- [53:53]
Bonnie Hammer
I mean, I don't want to leave. So it's basically just accepting that and knowing that. What we do have in this age, in this stage, is the agency over our choices. Where my grandmother and my mother didn't have agency of choices, their life was what it turned out to be. We have agency and we have to use that.
- [54:17]
Unknown Host
Oh, my God, I love this. And I want to emphasize here something. Your choice and what makes you happy and what makes you feel successful is not necessarily what other people think. It's not what other people measure. It's what you think. And it's sometimes very, very different.
- [54:34]
Bonnie Hammer
So just being comfortable in your own skin and being content with that. So good.
- [54:39]
Unknown Host
Bonnie, thank you. That was so fun.
- [54:42]
Bonnie Hammer
I love this. But next time I want to hear all of your story.
- [54:47]
Unknown Host
Oh, my God.
- [55:00]
Ilana Golan
I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. If you did, please share it with friends now. Also, if you're feeling stuck or simply want more from your own career, watch this 30 minute free training@leapacademy.com training. That's leapacademy.com training. See you in the next episode of the Leap Academy with Elana Golan Show.