B (2:44)

I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and I never really thought very much about anything other than entrepreneurship. And the reason I say that is the path for me was in my teenage years, when I was a teenager, I got interested in computers around age 12. And this would have been 1977.

A (3:07)

We barely knew what computers were. Why?

B (3:11)

I don't know. I have no idea. Like, I really don't. I was. I was a nerdy kid. I had some friends that were nerdy kids. You know, Dallas is where Texas Instruments was headquartered. And so there was a computer people around some of my friends, parents, maybe my uncle, guy named Charlie Feld, who's my dad's younger brother, who I'm really close with, essentially created the idea of a chief information officer in the 1970s and 80s. He worked at Frito Lay. And so, you know, my introduction to computers were through Charlie. The very first time I sat in front of a computer was in a data center in downtown Dallas that Frito Lay had in front of a green screen terminal connected to some mainframe computer. And he gave me a book. It was a black book with a red label on it called. And the label was a programming language. And the language is a programming language called apl, which was the acronym for a programming language, which, if anybody's a programmer from a long time ago, it's one of the weirdest programming languages that existed. But it's 12. Like, I'm sitting all day on a Saturday, you know, typing into this thing. So that kind of got me into it for my bar mitzvah. I got an Apple II computer very early. And just. I was just fascinated with software. I was not a hardware guy. I was a software guy. And, you know, at that stage, you had to like, be okay with the hardware. So you had to sort of mess around with it. But that was like my. My teenage years now. I was a, you know, I was a nerdy kid, but I was also. I ran track and, you know, sort of a. Our social group in Dallas was a pretty good social group. Like, it was, you know, this in. In high school, junior high school, high school. Like the smart kids, but the smart kids who also crossed over and were kind of quasi athletic.

A (4:51)

And I know, which is a very weird combination. We'll also talk about the marathon later. But I mean, it's like, that's a weird combination.

B (4:58)

Dallas, Texas, like, football was a huge thing. None of us were into football. But, you know, I played tennis, I played soccer, I went running, I got into Track. I went to mit not for any grand plan. I went because the girl I liked in seventh grade, her name was Karen. And to the extent that you can have boyfriend, girlfriend in seventh grade, Karen really wanted to go to mit. And her dad was a computer guy, too. Her dad worked for a company called National Semiconductor. So he had like a. If people remember the Fairchild video game thing. He had like one of the very video games. And we're playing Asteroids or not Asteroids, Space Invaders.

A (5:36)

Oh, yeah. So cool. Oh, yeah.

B (5:39)

All of that time period, I was a kid, right as that stuff was developing, and so she wanted to go to mit. I didn't really think very hard about where I wanted to go to school. I applied to MIT early admission, got in and threw away all my other college applications. So I didn't apply anywhere else. I'd never been to mit. I just had this, you know, like, what's going to be? I never really thought that I would not live in Texas. Hmm. So when I went to school in Boston, even my freshman year, I was still, like, very proud of my cowboy boots, very proud of my. Proud of Dallas. And Boston was not quite a foreign country to me, but it felt pretty foreign to me. My wife, Amy, now, who's from Alaska, went to school at Wellesley College in Boston. That's where we met. And she actually describes living in Boston and going to school in Boston as basically being in a foreign country that speaks English Compared to.

A (6:32)

Compared to Texas or compared to Alaska. Okay.

B (6:35)

She also tells me that whenever I talk about Texas being, you know, significant, she would say, well, if you cut Alaska in half, Texas is now the third largest state in the United States. And so, you know, so we had lots of jokes about. About that. But I went. I went to Boston within a year. You know, I was pretty deep into a bunch of different things at mit, and the word entrepreneurship didn't exist, right into computers and into, you know, business stuff. My senior year of high school, I worked for a husband and wife software company called Petcom. And I learned two very important things. One was that they paid me by the hour, 10 bucks an hour. So I learned if I worked 80 hours a week, I made twice as much money as if I worked 40 hours a week. But more importantly, they paid me a royalty on all the software that I wrote. I wrote two products that they sold commercially. Their company sold commercially. It was in the oil and gas business. One was for something called well log analysis, and the other was economic analysis of oil and gas wells and what they produce and the money to make over time. And it was in the oil BOOM still in 1982, 83 in Texas was a huge boom. And then there was a huge bust in 84, 85. And so for the first year or two, I was the first employee. I wrote these two products for them. They grew to 20, 25 people and then the bust happened and they shrunk back down to the husband and wife team. And so I had this very early entrepreneurial experience. Wow, their names. So again I got not just my playing with the computers, but also building real software. But they paid me a 5% royalty on the software that I wrote. So I'm in college and I get checks. I was still working part time for them as a freshman. I get checks in the mail that would have, you know, I worked for them 15 hours this month. And so I get 150 bucks for the $10 an hour they're paying me. And then I get 1500 dollars for the royalties. And then one month I got, you know, 2,500 bucks for the royalties. And then the month I remember so, so meaningfully, because it would probably really stuck in my head was I got a little bit over $10,000 one month which was a mind blowing amount of money for a freshman in College in 1980, 83, 84. I took across the street from where I lived was a Chinese restaurant that we went to all the time called the Mandarin. I took my entire fraternity to the Mandarin for lunch or for dinner, I can't remember which one. And at the end I still had $8,000 left over. But it gave me this taste right. Very early on. Yeah. And so I never really thought of working for somebody. I never really thought of, you know, going and getting a job like at the time graduating. You know, the seniors that would graduate, you know, they would get great engineering jobs sometimes, you know, and in Massachusetts, sometimes in California, sometimes in Oregon, sometimes in other places. You know, when people broke $30,000 a year, that was a huge number. Kind of looked at it and I'm like, eh, whatever. Like there wasn't a pull towards that as a path.

A (9:38)

Wow, that's incredible. And you did found like Feld Technologies still in school I think, or tell.

B (9:45)

Me, what was it? I founded that in school. So Fel Technologies, I put the official start date when I was a senior because a partner of mine, Dave Joch, joined me. He was, he was a senior when I was a freshman, so he'd already left. He was working for a startup that ultimately went public. But then he and I joined up A couple years prior, I was using that to do consulting for Petcom and for a few other companies. But Felt Technologies was actually the first successful company I started. But it was the third company I started. Oh, the first one I started as a freshman with three other friends, including Dave. Dave was one a guy. Andy Mina was one a guy. Samir Gandhi, who's been an extremely successful venture capitalist now at Excel. The four of us started a company called Martingale Software. And it was the year the Mac came out, and we had this idea to write a piece of software. We knew what the Mac was going to be. It was going to have a graphical thing and you're going to be able to do stuff with this graphical user interface. And so our idea was we were going to make a piece of software that was like a grid with X and Y columns and little squares because spreadsheet people knew what a spreadsheet was, and you were going to enter numbers into it. And because it was graphical, you could then make graphs out of the numbers in the spreadsheet like a separate product. I think by this point there was a couple of things like Harvard Graphics or something where you could enter numbers into a thing and make tables. But it was really lousy. And we were going to have this be on the Mac. And to make software on the Mac at the time, you had to actually get a Lisa, which was another Apple computer that was ill fated, but it was their first graphical user interface computer. You programmed on the Lisa and spit out floppy disks and, you know, like, there's this whole torturous process.

A (11:35)

Wow, what year is this?

B (11:37)

1984. You take the little disk, you stick it in the Mac, and the very first thing that happens almost every time is a little bomb shows up in the middle of the screen as you purr is really tedious. And we're trying to do this while we're, you know, freshman. Dave was a senior and he was finishing up. We were freshmen. We just. We were unsuccessful. It was a disaster. And of course, when the Mac came out, there was this product called Excel from this company, Microsoft, that kind of was that thing we were talking about doing. So that was. That didn't work.

A (12:06)

But take me there. Take me there for a second because it's the first failure, right? Like, I feel like for somebody that, I mean, I'm sure you ticked a lot of boxes of success in mit, like to get to mit, et cetera, it feel like failure. Did it feel like, oh, well, like. Like because you were young or what did it feel like, it felt like failure.

B (12:25)

Yeah, it was hard. I mean, it was the excitement on the front end. And I found, I found a, a box full of a bunch of our old Martingale stuff a year or so ago in some storage thing that we had. And I looked through it, like, you know, the letters that we, the memos that we wrote to each other and like the, the vision memo that we had and some other things, and it was really pretty profound to think of like a 17, 18 year old talking about this stuff again today. It's not that different, it's not that unusual.

A (12:56)

In 1980 was a big deal then.

B (12:59)

Weird. I mean, that was not like the norm. And so it's exciting and it was visible. And we lived in the same fraternity with, you know, there were 60 of us and everybody knew about it and people were talking about these different things. And this was a moment in time. Right? Like again, Lotus 1, 2, 3 was getting started in Boston at this time, or maybe it was already started and really kind of accelerating. You know, there were a bunch of companies in the area that were PC companies. Actually Lotus was pretty far along at this point, so. So that culture was already there, but it wasn't like you didn't really understand it. It wasn't interwoven as a 18 year old. Like, it was weird, it was different.

A (13:37)

But even then you decided to continue as entrepreneurship. You decided that this is not the time to hang the towel and go to work.

B (13:45)

No, the failure was interesting because it was navigating through. Like I say, it was visible. Like it was visible to our friends, but it wasn't like we had closure on it. In the end. What ended up happening was we, we did sell all the equipment that we had and we did find a customer that paid us some money to write some software for them. And we had one investor that had. We only had one investor. He'd given us $10,000 because we needed to buy some stuff and we gave him back $7,000. So while it was a failure, we kind of gave him back 70 cents on the dollar. Of course he didn't care one way or the other. But the emotional experience of going through this thing and then having to be done with it, that was powerful. I did another company a year later that had kind of a similar ending. It was with a different set of people. And we built a product and it was a really cool product that we built to do this thing called cephalographic analysis. And the reason that nobody. You say, what's cephalographic analysis? We had one customer. It was a person who told us that this was important. He was a facial surgeon at Louisiana State University, that somehow we found randomly. The guy that was my partner, that was actually owned more of the business than I. I was the developer. He found all this stuff. We wrote this software. It worked. It, it did pretty good stuff. And we sold exactly zero more copies of this software because there was no market for it. Nobody cared. This is not a thing. And that was another really powerful lesson early on, which was, you know, not. Not even about knowing what you're going to do in advance. I did I care about cephalographic analysis? Not really. You know, was it a cool piece of software to write? Yeah, it was kind of cool to work on with, you know, the other guy I worked on, a guy named John Koffler, worked on it with me. He actually wrote all the hard stuff, I wrote the easy stuff. But, you know, same thing, like, okay, this is hard. This is not like, you know, you just do it and it just magically works. It's like, yeah, this is going to be a grind.

A (15:38)

And I appreciate your sharing, actually. These. Right. Because I think sometimes we tend to look at somebody like you and say, oh, it's easy for Brad, but for me it's really, really hard. Right. Like, it's just so easy to look at kind of where you are.

B (15:52)

Yeah. I think any, any founder, no matter where and what age they are. And maybe there's some edge cases. But I think anybody who says this, yeah, it was easy.

A (16:01)

I agree.

B (16:02)

It's just, it's just, it's not easy. And you know, every company I've ever been involved in that was a success. So I should say even more simply, every company I've ever been involved in had a near death experience. A bunch of them died.

A (16:19)

A bunch of them, yeah.

B (16:20)

And all the successful ones had at least one near death experience. Really? Like that moment where you're like, this thing is over. This is not going to make it like something happened. It could be that the company was doing really well and then, you know, long list of things. But, you know, I think that early experience, for me, I couldn't say it when I was in my early 20s or even probably in my 30s today, I can say it very comfortably.

A (16:46)

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B (17:26)

The way a business is a startup, it's just a hypothesis. And you then run an experiment around your hypothesis and most of the experiments fail.

A (17:39)

Yeah.

B (17:39)

And so you learn from the hypothesis, you learn from the experiment that failed. You create a new hypothesis, you run a new experiment. It probably fails again. Every now and then the experiment succeeds and when it succeeds, you do a lot more of that stuff. But it's useful to know that it doesn't. Just doing more of that stuff forever doesn't necessarily work.

A (18:00)

Is that going to work?

B (18:01)

Hypotheses and some of the experiments that worked for a while don't work anymore. I don't know, maybe you can hear my voice. I was fascinated by this process. And even in the things that didn't work when the experiments failed or when the thing was hard and it wasn't always like I had a good attitude about it, there was a long stretch of time where the struggles were a real challenge for me to understand how to think about them as I've gotten older. I understand that it's just part of the experience and it's a fascinating part of the experience if you're willing to learn about the thing and about you.

A (18:41)

Tell me more about that because I think first of all, when you're in that near death experience, for those listening and not sure what we're talking about is sometimes it is so freaking hard that you can't breathe. You literally feel like this is going to die. And kind of together with your shame and your embarrassment. Right. When that happens, happens, how do you continue and how do you still fall in love with a process instead of giving up?

B (19:09)

Yeah. Well, fear and shame are really good words and they're different emotions in the context of it. So I want to play with that first, which is I think fear comes from lots of different places, including one's own internal understanding of oneself. And a lot of people are driven by fear in terms of their behavior. A lot of people are driven by achievement. A lot of people are driven by learning. There's different things that drive us. And fundamentally as a species, probably everybody that's listening knows the fight or flight response. And when you Feel threatened, You know, either you attack back or you run away. And it's very, very hard to evolve. Evolves the wrong words. Very hard to change your reaction to those situations because of evolution of how it's sort of wired into our self as a species. Shame is a different emotion that has similar characteristics where shame creates a lot of behavior, some positive, some negative. And you know, one of the things that I think early on that was very hard for me is when I was a teenager, I didn't understand what was going on physiologically. And even as a young adult, early 20s, I didn't understand what's going on physiologically. But in my mid-20s, I started to understand it and what happened. You know, I would kind of, you know, describe myself as a classic American Jewish kid. Put whatever cliche you want on that. But I had it. I was anxious and my anxiety was a positive motivator. In some cases, it motivated me to get stuff done, but it was also a burden. But I didn't understand, like, what any of it meant or how it fit together. And I didn't know where it came from. And I didn't understand what, you know, how much of it was biological versus environmental versus what I grew up with. And I was very fortunate. My parents are still around. I'm very, very close to them. But everyone that's a child has experiences from their parents that impact in their environment, that impact on these things. In my mid-20s, I had a very, very deep depression. I had a very deep depression at the confluence of three things. One was I dropped out of a PhD program. I like to say I got kicked out. I was a terrible PhD student. So I was running my business. My business was successful, was doing well, but, you know, like, I was just phoning it in for being a PhD student. And I had no business being in that program. So, you know, MIT likes to say that they gave me a leave of absence. I like to say it was like a bouncer at the bar, like picked me up and hauled me. I mean, I deserve that. So that was a very public failure because up to that point, I was this very smart kid that very young age, achieved a lot of stuff intellectually, including it at this place called mit. And I was ambitious, like I wanted to achieve it. It wasn't like I was driven. It was very positively reaffirming to me. Second, I got married to my high school girlfriend, not Amy, and we had a long distance relationship in college. And then we really only were living together after we got married, right after college, you Know, we should have never gotten married. We didn't have kids. So it was more like a young breakup in your early, you know, 23, 24, when you have, like, that boom, that big breakup that you had. But that was a tough one for me for lots of reasons, including a bunch of internal reasons about how I had thought about relationship and marriage. And, you know, one of my weaknesses at that time, I would say that translated into a lot of behavior that was successful, but it was a weakness, was I felt an overly involved sense of responsibility for things that I shouldn't be responsible for. And that was just my nature. But again, some places, very helpful, but in some places, harmful. And then the last was while my business was doing well. I was pretty bored. I was bored because the business wasn't really changing that much. My partner and I had a business. It was about 20 people. It was making plenty of money. It was successful. Made money every month on the bottom. You know, like, it wasn't like, I'm put on planet Earth to do this thing. Yeah, I didn't have that feeling. Had the feeling of, like, okay, I got to get up. I got to go do my work again. I got to go find another customer. Okay, we got to solve these problems. You know, it was interesting, but it wasn't stimulating. And my partner, Dave, I think, felt the same way. So neither one of us was, like, lifting each other up. So these three things collided, and I got very, very depressed. I was very functional. I was able to show up each day and go to work. I was able to do a reasonable job of my work. If you knew me well, you might say, he seems a little off. He seems a little tired, seems a little flat. Those would be the words I would get done at the end of the day, and I would just lay on the couch and stare at the ceiling. I mean, total. And for me, depression is total and complete absence of joy. It's not that I can't function, but there's just no joy in anything. And I got lucky. My. My doctoral advisor connected me with his therapist, his. His psychiatrist. And I started. I started therapy. And it was a time frame. Early 90s, late 80s, early 90s. A lot of stuff wasn't well understood, right? And the particular diagnosis I got was obsessive compulsive disorder, classic anxiety disorder. But in 1990, nobody had any idea what to do or how to treat it, except for a few people. And one of them happened to be this psychiatrist who was also at Harvard and did childhood stuff. He specialized in kids and he specialized in kids that had anxiety disorders and OCD was. So I just got lucky, right? Because I could have gotten like, anything. And what happened was even just having a label for me was helpful. It's like I didn't know what the answer was, but I'm like, oh, this way I'm feeling. Which feels awful, and I don't like it and I'm scared I'm not going to feel differently. Okay, I got it. There's a label. Like there's a thing and there. Okay, I can work on this. The reason I say that is if you map that to the comments you made about fear, you know, shame. By the way, during this period of time, I was incredibly ashamed of being depressed, right? Of going to a psychiatrist. I took Prozac, of taking medication, like these things. I was incredibly ashamed of it. So I kept this stuff inside. I didn't share with anybody except my then business partner, Dave, and now wife Amy, who eventually became my girlfriend and then wife, but like nobody else, which is also a problem in these kinds of cycles. And so one of the things at that point, like, if I think about it, like, you can be very functional as a business person, as a founder, as a CEO, as a leader, and you can be really miserable.

A (26:26)

Right.

B (26:27)

And that misery, even if it's internal, can extend. Come out in lots of different ways. It can come out in hurting other people, it can come out in dominance, it can come out in anger, it.

A (26:39)

Can come out in control, drinking, whatever. Yeah.

B (26:43)

All kinds of, you know, self medication, whatever. And for me, in my 20s, I had one wave of working through this. And then in my late 40s, having now been very successful at a number of things, including at this time period, this was 2013, most of the external measures in my world were going great. If you looked at things like my business, the venture fund I was part of, Foundry, was doing great. A number of the companies I was involved in doing great. What happened was in 2013, again, age 47 and, you know, you think about men, this idea of a midlife crisis is kind of a real thing. And for me, I wouldn't call it a midlife crisis. What I call, I got very depressed again, very functional in the context of work. This time I had a different experience with therapy. I went back into therapy with a different person. I did 10 years, and this time I'm like, I'm 47, I'm going to figure this out now. Time to understand Planet Brad and understand what this means in the context of an adult who's had Success, who is, you know, is in a good place, is healthy, and wants to spend time on planet Earth in a place that's joyful, not in a place that has absence of joy. And one of the things that. That linked back to that's really powerful is I had to work through understanding what actually mattered to me in the context of all of the things that up to the age of 47, I had been doing, but that I had never really understood why they mattered, because I just didn't.

A (28:35)

That's so powerful, Brad. I want to take you there. I want you to go deeper there with me, because I think the worst situation is not necessarily a bad career. Because in the bad career, everything screams at you, fix it, fix it, fix it. It's many times it's the good career that isn't yours. It's the path that you're climbing on this ladder, but it's not necessarily the ladder that is the right ladder for you, right? And it's like, there's usually, like a moment where you're like, oh, my God, I need to fix it. Was there, like, a moment that is just like, I have to take care of this?

B (29:07)

Yeah, I think there were. There were a couple things that intersected pretty quickly with each other. One is life is this endless series of crisis. I mean, it's a cliche, but it just is. And, you know, when. When I was in my 30s, a friend of mine who had a kid that was 20, their kid died. It was an older, older friend. And he said to me, after he processed it, he says, you know, Brad, life is a fatal disease, right? And, like, you know, it's heavy, but it is like, you know, we grow old, we die. You know, things don't work as expected, as planned. We all have obsessions and compulsions, but you're trying to use the linkage between them to control what's going on in an irrational way. If I touch this door handle a certain number of times before I leave my house, my mother won't die. Like, totally irrational, disconnected, have nothing to do with each other things. And your brain's doing that all day long to try to manage your own anxiety. And so one thing for me in this moment was, fortunately, I had not just great support of Amy, but several other close friends. A guy named Jerry Colonna would be in the mix here who were incredibly, in the moment, helpful. My business partners, by the way, at Foundry were also fantastic. Seth Bryant and Jason. At the time where I just said, here's what's going on, and they're like, we got you, you know, And I, you know, I said, I'm functional, but I just want you to know how I feel. And they're like, it's, we understand, you know, we're here for you this time around, number one, I just didn't want to feel this way, and so I wanted to get to the root cause of it and understand what was going on. Second, Amy. The only thing she really cared about was that I was taking action. She was totally fine with me being, you know, depressed as long as I was depressed. But if I wasn't taking action to understand myself better, that was a problem. So I did a bunch of tactical things right away. I stopped drinking. I, you know, I stopped using an alarm clock. Turns out I was exhausted physiologically. So without alarm clock, I was sleeping 11, 12 hours a night, every night. Like, things that pretty quickly, you're like, oh, I see. You know, this bullshit of I fall asleep on planes and so I can just fly all over the country.

A (31:15)

I did that. Guilty as charged. No, it doesn't work.

B (31:18)

Not getting extra, right? And, and so I'm wearing myself. So, like, a bunch of things, like, I started doing something on Saturday called Digital Sabbath. I, you know, I, I, I'm not religious, but I, you know, strong Jewish identity. I'm like, I know a whole bunch of Jewish people that are very successful and don't work on Saturdays. I'm not working on Saturdays anymore. And so Friday night to Sunday morning, I just, no electronics. Turn them off. Do I do that religiously? No, I don't do it religiously, but, you know, I just, I changed that mode. Tactical things, but then, like, go deep. Understand what's at the root of these things and what's causing what is. Not a helpful function and not helpful behavior, which in my case, you know, was linked to things like taking responsibility for things. I don't need to be responsible for having no governor at all on my physiological effort. Like, literally not saying, enough, I need a break. I need to give myself some time. I use running as a release valve for many of these things. But running is not rest, right? So it's one thing to, I mean, I love running and I love being lost in the woods, but at the same, lost in the mountains. But at the same time, like, not taking care of yourself, not giving yourself rest, not creating enough detachment from things was a problem. And then one other thing that happened was I was really finding myself in this success cycle, but also with the philosophy that I developed in the way I comported Myself, which instantiated in this book in Give first, because Give first is a philosophy. And at this point I was starting to have language for it. I was calling it give before you get, which is a terrible hashtag. So somebody at Techstars eventually turned it into give first because much shorter if you only have 140 characters. But I really, I didn't know how to put boundaries on what I was doing. And so I was constantly depleting myself against the backdrop of achievement. For what purpose? What happens when I step back from all of that and I'm almost, I'm about to turn 60. So, you know, I feel like I, I went through this experience where I really learned and frankly set myself up comfortably for the third third of life emotionally. Whether that lasts, you know, whether I have a day left or 30 years left, I don't. We don't know. Right. It's indeterminate. But I feel like I understood this set of things that for the 40 years of business and the prior part of my life, I can translate into behaviors that are healthy for me and that are useful and productive for the people I choose to engage with and who choose to engage with me, versus where I was before, where I really didn't have a good handle on that for many, many, many years.

A (34:13)

And I appreciate your sharing all of this because I think again, there's, there's still shame around anything mental. I think anxiety, depression, all of this is incredibly common, especially in entrepreneurship. Like, I feel it's so lonely, but then I think there's still, it's not like a wound that you can see in your arm, right? It's like it's, it's something that it's not visible. And when it's not visible, it's hard for us to admit it. You know, I remember waking up in the middle of the night and feeling like I'm getting a heart attack. Right? Like, I think you. Sometimes it gets into like, oh my God, I need to do something because I'm going to kill myself.

B (34:50)

Whatever the negative emotion is that you're describing that one has is so extreme that you almost can't stand it. And lots of people that are not entrepreneurs struggle with that. But entrepreneurs, particularly in moments, there are many moments where you have no way to process what's going on other than to try to feel that the cliche of the entrepreneur at 3 o' clock in the morning, lying in bed at night, you know, trying to solve the problems is the, the nice version of that. We kind of make heroes out of that behavior, it's like, that's heroic behavior, and yet it's actually really not. It's terrifying. It's horrifying. It's awful. It's not, you know, it's not what you want and how you can engage with things, even when they're not working or relationships or people or the business or whatever, in ways that are positive and constructive. And when you look back on, you'll be proud of. Even if the thing didn't work is very hard. And one of the things, you know, you asked me, what were the things that came together at this point in 2013? And one of them was this, which was, I wasn't ashamed this time of being depressed. Like, I'd had some. I'd had enough depressive episodes. I was old enough. I had a couple of friends, Jerry Colonna being one another one, Dave Morin, who was early at Facebook, who had been public about their own struggles with depression. Another person who I think has been incredibly brave about what he's modeled is a guy named Paul English. Very, very successful founder of Kayak, has bipolar disorder and had let Tracy Kidder, who's a magnificent writer, follow him around for a year or two and write a book. And it's called something like getting hit by a dump truck of money or something like that. And Paul, over time, understanding how his bipolar disorder was both additive, really helpful, but also really hurtful to him and a lot of people around him and him understanding himself in the context of it. So there were some people that were now very successful talking about it. And I said, you know what? There have been a few founders that have committed suicide in the preceding 12 months. And the tech community does what the tech community always does with these things, which is it sort of says, oh, look at this thing. It's horrible. We must do something about it. And then it's like, you know, a dog with a rabbit. Oh, rabbit, squirrel. You know, like on some other thing. There's like, no continuity of, like, let's change something. You know, why. Why did these brilliant people decide to take their lives? And kind of my response to it was, you know what? I was already blogging. You know, I've been blogging every day since 2005. I talked about 2004. I talked about all kinds of stuff. Stuff like, if I don't talk about this, I'm. I'm actually hurting myself. Forget about anybody else. I kind of was creating this internal dissonance. I was basically, like, bullshitting myself. Look over here. Everything's great. Don't worry about this. And then internally I'm like, I'm just really down. And so I just decided like, you know what, you know, I'll let it out. And then what happened was kind of wonderful in a, in a weird way, you know, I don't know. The number 100 people that were well known, many of them well known entrepreneurs that I didn't know reached out to me because I showed up in Ink magazine in a big expose that Jerry and I did around mental health. And I was blogging about it and it showed up in this article and that article and people would just sort of email me and say, can we talk? Like, yeah, sure, you know, because that was my nature. And for many of them, I was the first person they'd ever talked to. They didn't talk to their significant other. Like they couldn't acknowledge what was going on. Some people were very helpful, like they'd work through their own stuff. And so, you know, it wasn't, hey Brad, let's have a conversation. I can fix you. It was, hey Brad, let's have a conversation. Let me tell you about me and about the stuff I went through. And maybe my experience can be useful to you.

A (38:57)

Wow.

B (38:57)

And so in a pretty, you know, 12 month period, that depressive episode lasts about six months. But in about a 12 month period it helped me coalesce some other ideas around what turned into mentorship that was already in the system with techstarters. But this notion of the importance of not telling people the answer, but of giving them stories from your own experience that they could either decide to do something with or to totally ignore. Now I've learned this in the early 90s in my first company through something called Young Entrepreneurs Organization, now called EO and a program called Forum that was part of YEO and Young Presidents Organization. And it's a structured process, a three hour thing that you do once a month with a confidential group of the same dozen or so people that get together every month that are your peers. And a key part of the process is you don't. The person presents the problem to the group and the group doesn't respond by saying, this is what you should do. The group starts by asking a bunch of clarifying questions. So you start by asking a bunch of questions to try to get to the root cause. That's a big one. You ask questions, but they're asking questions with a purpose. We've all run into the person in a boardroom or in a meeting that's just asking questions. They don't go anywhere Mr. Socrates is who I call that person. I'm like, just go away. You're not helping here. Right? Versus, like, asking questions with a purpose, trying to get to the root cause. And there's techniques like the five whys and others. And after that process and you sort of people got the stuff on the table through the questions, each person would go around and tell a story from their own experience that they thought related to the issue being discussed. And for me, like, those two things really clicked into a lot of the mentorship we were seeing that was effective at techstars and useful versus ineffective mentorship, where a mentor that would show up and say, alana, you should do this, you should do that. Oh, that's your problem. Here's the solution. That's actually not helpful. And by the way, like 50% of humanity, whenever somebody says, you should do this, they immediately go run and try to do the opposite, right? But if you. If you say, look, here's my. Here's some data from my own experience. I had this happening in a couple of places, right? One was in this whole experience I was having with mental health and depression in my own exploration. One was happening in techstars with mentorship. One was happening with my own behavior and how I was engaging with people. And then as I reflected several of the most influential mentors on me along the way had behaved that way where they weren't being directed. It was supportive, but it wasn't supportive in the absence of the thing. It was in the presence of the problem I was facing and giving data to help me think through and come up with my own solution.

A (41:59)

And I love this because I think you're verbalizing to some extent why Leap Academy was successful, right? Because it started from a deep pain, what I started, right? And then it suddenly changes thousands of lives because we're going deeper into this because, again, I think what you're describing, Brad, and I think the audience and the listeners will really resonate with this because I think sometimes when we tick all the boxes of success, it's harder to admit that there's a problem because theoretically we should be grateful, right? I have a beautiful home. I have a beautiful husband and kids and whatever, and I should be just grateful. And the truth is, it was incredibly painful to feel so depressed, right? So there's a little bit of that that is coming as well. I was like, how do you even ask for help?

B (42:48)

There's a great talking head song that you made me think of that I just looked up from the 1980s. This is on regular rotation. I couldn't remember the name of it. It's called Once in a Lifetime. Do you know this song?

A (43:02)

Oh, I think so. I'm going to take it out.

B (43:05)

You may find yourself here. You may find yourself living in a shotgun shack. You may find yourself living in another part of the world. You may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile. And you may find yourself in a beautiful house with a beautiful wife. And you may ask yourself, well, how did I get here? It sort of relates to this notion of, this idea of what does it mean? And if you approach like, I'm successful, this is great. I'm not going to acknowledge that there's hard shit going on or things I don't like going on or the other. I'm successful and I, I'm angry at all these other things. All of it comes back to you. Like, start with you. Like what's going on with you, not what's going on with.

A (43:49)

Well, there's a reason on planes we put our own oxygen mask on, right? I mean, there's a reason. So take me there. Just a few more because I want to. Like, that kind of ties into your book. Like you tech stars from a meeting. Speaking of giving, you liked giving and that became techstars. Can you share that story? It's beautiful.

B (44:09)

Well, precisely what I, what I did was as I became more visible and more known, especially in, in Boulder and in Colorado, everybody wanted to get together with me, whether they were local or whether they were flying through Colorado or coming to Colorado for any reason. Could be business, could be work, could be relevant to me, could be coming to see you, to see their kid, could be going skiing. I started being on the receiving end of this infinite number of emails saying, can we get together for coffee? And at some point, like, if, If I said yes to everything, which was my kind of default mode, I'm a default yes person generally. If I said yes to everything, all I'd ever do is have coffee and go to the bathroom. I get nothing done. And so I, I had to come up with a way to deal with that and a way I decided to deal with that. And still I had a deep value of being very accessible. I don't have a gatekeeper. I answer my own emails. I always have. My email is Bradfeld.com. i'm very easy to find. It's just the way I am. It's a value I like and it's the way I like to be and I like to be thought of. I'm sure it feeds Some element of myself at this stage of my life. But it's just the grooves in my record are pretty deep around being accessible. And in this context I'm like, I want to still be accessible, but I can't say yes to all these coffee meetings. So I came up with this idea and what I did was I started having once a month, random day and random day for me was 15 minute meetings with anyone who wanted to meet with me. And the way I did it was I created before there were like online calendars and calendly and all that sort of stuff. I created a very simple online calendar on the web and when somebody would email me, I'd point them to the calendar and a bunch of people would never get on the calendar because they didn't really want to meet with me like, or what. I don't know what their motivation was. They didn't know what their motivation was. Eventually what I wanted to do out of each of these 15 minute meetings, I do like 10 to 20 of them in a day, once a month. And my goal was two things. One, learn one thing for me and two, figure out one way to help the person so that every meeting I was in, the person would have one thing to be leaving the meeting to be helpful with. I did this for about 10 years and it was really fun and a lot of very interesting things came out of it. One of them was techstars. And it was not at the very beginning of this, it was in, I've been doing this for a couple of years. David Cohen, who I didn't know lived in Boulder, had been a successful founder with his co founder David Brown knew of me and we had actually he had made an angel investment, a couple of them. And he and I had made angel investment in the same company. So we knew we were both angel investors in this company, Solidware. So he wanted to get together with me and somehow he, you know, he learned about random day and he just learned about the calendar. He didn't even reach out to me in advance and he just signed up. It took about three months. And so we get together and he's in the middle of my random day and we sit down, don't know, he slides a piece of paper across the table to me that, you know, it's a nice little sort of almost brochure y like thing. And he starts talking kind of in a soft spoken way. And I said, hey, I can't read and listen at the same time, so let me just read. You know, you clearly put some effort, oh Good. Like all this, all the different, hey.

A (47:24)

If you're on YouTube, there's some.

B (47:28)

Listening. We just had fireworks go off with whatever hand signals I did. Or maybe I said, david, who knows?

A (47:35)

Yeah.

B (47:38)

And so he said, okay. And I said, I read the thing and it basically was a description for this thing that became techstars. He's like, you know, I'm unhappy making angel investments. I'm not really having fun with it. I don't feel like it's engaged enough with the founders. It's 2006. You know, angel investing is not like this super hot thing that everybody's doing. All of a sudden. It's still sort of emerging from the dot com rubble. And he says, you know, what I want to do is I want to put together a little money. I want to invest in 10 companies. I want to have them all be together in Boulder over the summer for 90 days, run a program, surround them with some people that are other experienced people to help them and just try to help them get their company started. That was the basic idea, which evolved into the idea of a mentor driven accelerator. I asked him a couple questions, mostly trying to understand where it was. He says, well, look, I'm putting in $80,000 and my partner David Brown's gonna put in 50, but he wants somebody else to put in 50 so that he's not just, just putting in 50 with me. And we kind of want to raise, you know, 200,000 bucks or so, maybe a little bit more, you know, 20, $20,000 times 10 companies, plus a little money for like pizza and maybe some office space for the summer or whatever. And I looked at him and I said, look, as long as you're not a flake or a crook. And I can find that out with a couple of emails. Count me in for 20 for $50,000. I walked out of the room. I called a friend of mine, Jared Polis, who's now, who's the fourth co founder, is the punchline. But he was now the governor of Colorado. He was a very successful entrepreneur. And we'd done a few things together. And I called him up, I said, hey, Jared, I'm putting $50,000 into this thing called Techstars. Can I tell you about it? And his response was, brad, I'm good for $50,000. What is it? Right? So now, you know, I told him, he's like, that sounds great. Let's do it. So I walked back in the room and I told Dave, I said, all right, you're done, Jared. Jared's going to put in 50. Jared who? Jared Polis. Oh, really? And so the four of us started this thing, and the idea was, it's an experiment, right? It's a startup experiment. We didn't. We didn't spend years trying to figure out what the market was. We didn't spend a bunch of time doing, you know, diligence on whether it would work or not. We're like, you know what? We'll try it for a year, and it'll either work or it won't work. And if it doesn't work, it'll be a fun experiment. And if it does work, we'll have investments in 10 companies of which one or two of them might be successful. And worst case, we're going to have a fun time in Boulder for 90 days with a bunch of founders. Turned out to be about 25 founders and about 50 mentors, some of whom were local founders, but some of whom were people on the east coast or the west coast who were friends who came to Boulder for the summer. And so that was the instantiation of it. And I describe it that way because it's such a canonical example. Like the random day in and of itself is give first. Right? I'm just being accessible. The. Try the experiment. Yes, sure. I invest. It was transactional. I invested money in it. He invested money in it. David and Jared invested money in it, too. But we sort of all looked at it as, let's see what this. If this works or not. And then when we ended up having about 50 mentors that first year, and most of them were friends of mine, not all of them, but most of them. And the pitch was pretty simple. Hey, we're doing this thing. Will you come and hang out with. And we didn't really have the mentor word yet locked in because mentor wasn't that well used in 2006 to come spend time with them, spend time with these companies, hang out, meet with them, spend a day, you know, and for people coming out of town, I would say, look, I'll take you out to dinner. We'll hang out. If you want to see other stuff in and around Boulder and Denver, I'll make other linkages or whatever. And so for most people, they're like, that sounds cool. Sure. For a few people, they'd say some version of what's in it for me. And my response would be, you know what? I don't know. Don't worry about it. It's cool. And off I went to the next person. And those people were not involved in the first program. Most of those people, after the first program, were jealous for me, reached out, hey, can I do that? Because it was just so much fun. And the other piece of it that's interesting, in the origin story that came from this, that's, I think, again, embodied in this idea of Give first is that we had a lot of people from around the country reach out to us, and actually around the world, a few people internationally saying, hey, this techstars thing's pretty cool. You know, like, can we do a techstars in Chicago? Can we do a techstars in London? Can we do a techstars in this place? And our response was, we have no idea if this is a good idea. We just don't know. We'll tell you everything we did. We'll give you our documents of how we did it, will come in for a couple of the programs. The one that I remember the most was in Chicago was called Accelerate. We'll come be mentors if you want, and participate in the thing and come to your demo day. And that was the beginning of other accelerators kind of popping up in different places. And there were some other things that we did early on around that. But part of the thing that was really fun in hindsight, was we didn't have an ask of those other people. We didn't say, we'll tell you how to do it if you give us this. And a story that comes around is that techstars had now started to expand into other geographies. We expanded into Boston, Seattle, New York. And we're starting to think about the other cities we want to go into. And I went and had dinner with Troy Henikoff in Chicago. Troy was the managing director of Accelerate. And we're having dinner, and I said, hey, Troy, would you ever consider turning this into techstar Chicago? And he's like, you know what? That's kind of fun, like, interesting, like, let's talk more about it. And what we ended up doing was it became techstar Chicago, so we just rebranded and became part of the techstars network. And now all of a sudden, that's part of what we're doing as we expand. You know, a lot of it came from the relationship that was already developed. It wasn't like this heavy negotiation of, what are you going to give me to be part of techstars Chicago? And it was, is this an idea or not? That makes sense. Yes, this makes sense. Okay, let's go. So, you know, the dynamic of. Of how things come back around. Troy's a dear friend. Techstar Chicago been hugely successful, both for the investors from Chicago that are investors, but also for techstars. As an investor in the things that it's done, I sort of lay out that landscape as the example of like a different way of approaching the business interactions. Sure, there's still transactional components to them, but it's very much from an inside out relationship dynamic. It's. I'm interested in just doing stuff with you. Let's see where it goes. Okay. Let's figure out what the parameters are, if we need to have parameters. But you know, for a lot of this stuff you don't need a parameter. You can just get going.

A (54:19)

And I, and I love it because even if you look at your books, it was all about give, give, give, right? Like venture deals was all about giving, right? Like it's all the things, all the mistakes the founders do basically when they don't know what they're doing. So that literally saved me so much because I had no clue like what is a term? Like what should I look at what, you know, like you guys just spell it out, which is exactly what we need. And startup communities is also, it's like based on everything that you've built and the communities that you've seen and what's important. And I think now you're giving Give first, which is essentially that same pattern that is so symbolic of how you do everything.

B (55:01)

Brad, you're landing on it really well with, with, with those books and with all the other ones I've read and you know, for anybody that cares or knows me for a long time, I think this, that this book Give first, which is my ninth nonfiction book, will be my last nonfiction book. So I think I'm after nine. I think I'm done. It's very interesting as I written more books and spent more time, you know, understanding the publishing industry, the good and the bad of it, and understanding why people write books and having lots of people who write their first time books reach out to me and say, I'm writing my first book. And one of my first is why? Like, just tell me why, Because I'm kind of curious what your motivation is. Of course, for many people writing a book is, is creating basically the instantiation of a platform that they then can build a consulting or speaking or whatever kind of business around. It's, you know, this is, this is my thing and it's a revenue generating activity. Not as a book, because books, you.

A (55:55)

Know, is a funnel.

B (55:56)

If you want to make money as a funnel. Yeah, yeah, don't write. I Mean, you might get lucky and make some money if you write a book, but most books don't make any meaningful amount of money in the grand scheme of things. Every now and then. Event Deals has been a huge, you know, hugely successful book for its category. Somebody once told me, if you sell more than 5,000 copies of a nonfiction book, you've done well. My response was, what the fuck are you talking about?

A (56:17)

Well, mine is in the making, so I don't want to hear that. No kidding.

B (56:21)

The issue was less, like, how many books did you sell? And like, what's the reason you did it? Well, for a lot of people, the reason is it's, it's, it is codifying, you know, in a way, a lot of the things you're doing, and that's very valuable for a business. For a lot of people, it's ego. And you really find ego when you ask people like, what around. This is the, you know, you pick it a little bit. And ego's a bad reason to write a book, I think, in general, because not because it doesn't satisfy your ego, because it's really hard. There's lots of better ways to satisfy your ego. So, you know, we all have egos, and egos are fine. If you want to stoke it, don't make the book the way you stoke it.

A (56:55)

It's very long and audacious and a lot of podcasts, Brad.

B (57:00)

But interestingly, when, when Jason Mendelssohn and I wrote venture deals, we already had reputations that we had. Like, sure, it got us exposed to more people, but we didn't write it for deal flow. We didn't write it for our venture business. We didn't write it for any. For money. We didn't write it because we wanted to be speakers about how to do venture deals. We wrote it because it came from a series of blog posts that, that the two of us wrote together on my blog three years earlier that were a function of being incredibly frustrated with the information asymmetry in terms sheet negotiations. I mean, we would be constantly, as VCs who did lots of term. She used to be working with entrepreneurs who had lawyers. Some of them were lawyers who were good venture lawyers, but many of them were not and didn't really know how to do venture deals and the opacity of how some of these things worked and the things that people were negotiating over. And I can't tell you the number of times early on about people marking up, like registration rights and changing the registration rights clauses. This doesn't matter why is this in here. And so we decided to understand that and explain it and try to do.

A (58:12)

It in English, which I appreciated very.

B (58:15)

Much, but really deconstruct the whole thing. So that was like the motivation book. And from that, that was very. That was the second book I wrote. But it was very helpful to me because when I wrote Startup Communities, the motivation for that book was I was done listening to people say, if you're serious about building a tech company, you should move to the Bay Area. Nothing negative about the Bay Area, but I'm like, look, you can build these companies all over the world, and in fact, you should. And the world needs these things. And people all over the world and all the cities they live in, people live in cities for lots of reasons. And a lot people of. Of them are because they love the city they live in. And the idea that you could be able to start a company anywhere in the world and you could have a startup community that was vibrant as part of a city anywhere in the world was. Was important to me. And, you know, if you. If you look at that book, you know, it's a book that's. It's. That's anecdotes, it's stories, it's examples, it's got a thesis behind it. But the thesis that's behind it is a pretty simple thesis that at the time was pretty controversial. Like the way I laid out what I called the Boulder thesis, and some of the things I said were not the natural ways that people talked about what you had to do to have entrepreneurial ecosystems or innovation clusters or whatever. And I gave voice to founders of doing it a different way. Why did I do that? Well, yeah, okay, there's a link to techstars, because we were doing that stuff with techstars and expanding and shifting. Sure. For me, some of the other things I was doing that I was involved in, like Startup America at the time, which was a public private partnership with the Obama administration, was trying to get more startup stuff in different places in the United States. I was fascinated with Startup Weekend, which at this point had become a pretty big thing that was happening all over the place. And I was on the board of it, I think, by now, and supportive of it. And so I had this. I had this sort of notion of the importance of codifying it. But as an example, like, you know, I did. I don't know how many talks on startup communities I did in the next couple of years. I do talks for anybody. I want to talk about it. I didn't charge money for it. It Wasn't a business, it was a evangelism of an idea I thought was an important idea that I wanted to get out in the world for people.

A (60:32)

To take and build whatever they can. Yeah. From it.

B (60:37)

And I own startup communities. Trade, you know, tm, you know, it's like. No. Kind of the opposite. Will you please start calling these things startup communities? It wasn't a phrase prior to it. Please use this. Please talk about it this way so we have a common language for doing a thing that for me was important and exciting and interesting. And the reward back to give first. The reward for me, both financially and non financially, have come in many ways that I couldn't have expected on the front end of it. And that's the essence of it. It's you do things because they're interesting, because you think they'll have impact, because you care about them, because you were put on planet Earth now to work on it. And if you do it and you do it well and you do it in a way that's accessible to others and you don't try to control where it goes, the things that come around are wild and wonderful. Awesome.

A (61:34)

So why give first? Why sit? Now that you ticked all the boxes of success, why slave over another book?

B (61:42)

This book had a little bit of a bumpy ride. So I've been thinking about it for a while and I wrote a draft about three years ago. I'll do a draft kind of by myself and then I toss it out to 20 people or so and just say, I share a Google Doc. I don't try to control it. And I just say to everybody, just comment, whatever, send me email, leave me voicemails, whatever. But it's kind of just like Apple to this group. And some people, you know, give me very, very detailed edits, and some people just send me back, you know, an email with a couple of thoughts. And what came back from this was a couple things. One, I kind of jammed together these two ideas of give first and mentorship. I hadn't really interwoven them, which has happened before in other books that I'd written. So I knew what I needed to do to interweave them. But that's a lot of work. It's deconstructing the book, refactoring it, putting it back together again, adding a lot of connective tissue. So it's actually a book, but like, you know, the bones are there, but I got to take it, I got to tear it apart, throw it on the ground and put it back together again. The second was People said, brad, in this book, there's way too much tech stars and not enough Brad. And, you know, you talk about mentorship and you talk about telling examples from your own experience to support the point, and you do some of that, but you do too much that's not from your experience. Anecdotes and stories that are tangential. And I took that to heart. And that intersected with a moment in time for me where a couple of different things were happening. This was in the midst of COVID and I was tired. I was very tired of a bunch of different things. And this was not depression fatigue. And I decided, as I thought about it, that instead of finishing the book, I was going to stick it on the shelf. And I did something else instead, which is I did something that I now have a word for, which is I called I hiberly. And what I did was I just stopped anything public facing. You know, I'd been blogging for now, 15 plus years, 16, 17 years. I just stopped blogging. I didn't like, write a blog post saying, I've decided to stop blogging now and check back in here. I just stopped. I stopped doing any sort of public anything. I stopped going to public things. I stopped doing video conference public events. I stopped doing podcasts. I just kind of hibernated. And what I did was I shifted all of my energy to doing things that were interesting to me in the context of my work. So I still was very busy and very active with my companies and with the things I was involved in, But I just eliminated. I peeled off this public profile and this public engagement, and I shifted from default yes to default no. And I didn't know how long I was going to do that for a summer. Like, at first it was take summer off, and then it was like, you know what? I kind of like this. I'm going to take the winter off. And then it's like, I kind of like this. I'm going to take the spring off and, oh, it's summer again. I'm definitely summer off. And it turned into two years of hibernating. And after that sort of time period, what happened was David Cohen had left techstars. He was still at techstars. He was chair, but we'd hired a CEO to scale techstars that I would describe. The kindest way to describe it is we had our awkward teenage years, and everyone's been an awkward teenager. We had year 15, a year 18. We made a lot of mistakes. We did some stupid things, we hurt some people's Feelings. We did some good stuff, but we also made some errors. And David had come back as CEO. And I said to him at the time, I said, look, I'm really enjoying being not having a public profile. I didn't have the hibernation word yet. I said, I'll do anything I can to help you from behind the scenes. I'll do anything inside techstars with founders, but I just don't want to do anything publicly. And he said, no problem. And we engaged in that. And about a month in, I took the book off the shelf, metaphorically. I went to the Google Doc that it was in and I opened it up and I read it. And I actually printed out and read it. And I'm like, you know, some good shit in here. And so I decided I didn't commit to finishing it, but I took the second half of the year last year, and I worked on it for about six months. And by the end of the year, by the holidays, I felt like it was really good. Like, I'm like, yeah, this is good. And so I talked to Amy a lot about it. I said, look, if I'm going to publish this book, and by that point I was starting to say to her, I think this is it. I'm going to start writing fiction. Fiction. And I'm writing software again. I love to write software. So, you know, I'm playing around with that again. I said, I think this is going to be a real book and maybe it's the last one. Like, I'm going to come out of hibernation, put some energy into it and do that for a period of time. And what we did, and she was really helpful in me defining it, is we bounded it. I said six months. And actually, in hindsight, I wish it was three months instead of six months for a variety of reasons, but six months is fine. And I'm about. I'm about four months into it at Halloween, at midnight, and I'm done. I'm going back into hibernation. But what I decided just experience, you know, kind of out of hibernation engagement again with this. So kind of that was the arc of the book. And then there's a why behind that, which is, as I wander up to 60, that I'm in what I call the third. We call the third third of life. For Amy and I, it's very much, you know, I said to. To Jerry, Jerry Colon, who I mentioned earlier, probably seven years ago, he wrote about this episode in his book. We were just sitting around talking one afternoon and I Said, just blurted out, you know, Jerry, I'm done striving again. I'm not gonna get anything done. I'm not gonna accomplish anything. But I'm just like, I don't need to, like, whatever. That's. I just don't need it. I don't want it. I want to spend time with people I care about. I want to work on things I care about. I want to do things I care about. You know, like when somebody says, well, what impact do you want to have on the world? I'm like, the world doesn't give a about me.

A (67:38)

You know, you already made a mark on the world. Like, let's put it in context.

B (67:44)

What do you want to be? I don't care. I'm going to be dead. You know, I just want to shift out of that kind of thinking, and I want to, you know, I just want to have the experience of whatever time I have on this planet, and I want that to be meaningful. It doesn't have to always be joyful, and it's not. I'm going to have things that don't feel good. I'm going to have things that are disappointments. I'm going to have relationships that break. I'm going to have things that fail. That's part of the experience. I want to experience that for the rest of the time that I have. Putting a book out around that in this moment in time, you know, that talks about these values. That really is a culmination for me of what I've learned from people like Jerry, from people like Len Fassler, who I bought, you know, bought my first company and passed a few years ago, but was incredibly close. People like my Uncle Charlie, my dad's younger brother, who introduced me to computers and was an incredible mentor and still very close friend. People like Chris and Helena Abes that we, you know, we talked about at the very beginning that, you know, I really learned the first founders I worked with, people like David Cohen, who, 20 years ago, we didn't know each other, and, you know, like, the level of. I mean, emotional intimacy that we have through the ups and downs of our experience together, completely independent of financial reward, of success, of any of those labels, just like that experience. And I wanted to somehow pull that together in a book that wasn't a memoir, because I don't want to write a memoir. But of course, if you are a mentor, got talent, stories from your own experience is very valuable. So there's elements of it. I didn't want it to be a, you know, you should book because that's not mentorship. And frankly, you know, I like to say, people, if you like it, tell all your friends, and if you don't like it, throw it away. Don't tell anyone. Like, to the extent that people. In the same way, some of my other books have been impactful on the way people follow their journey. If this can be impactful on some people, that's rewarding of itself. But I decided if I was going to do it, I was going to do it rather than something else. So that's the why.

A (69:58)

Oh, my God, Brad, this is so powerful. Because I think we have a lot of listeners in kind of like that late stage career trying to figure out what's next, right? Like, do I want to keep on going? Do I want to create impact? Do I want to just enjoy life and whatever and drink mojitos on the beach? Like, I think there's a lot of, like, what do I want to do next? And how do I see my life? You know, which is a big portion of what we try to help them with. But I think it's not an easy question because there's a lot of options on the table.

B (70:29)

It's very hard. And I think that was a lot of the challenge I had at 47, which was, I don't need. At 47, I don't need any more money, I don't need any more success. Why am I working 80 hours a week? Why am I flying all over the place all the time? You know, like, why? I didn't have an answer now. Was I required to have an answer? No. But the lack of an answer was the problem. It would be easy to say, well, I'm trying to have an impact on the world, or I'm trying to put a dent in the universe, or I'm trying to. Whatever the cliche is, like, why were you put on this planet at this time? What were you put on this planet at this time to work on? What. What gives you joy and fulfillment? Well, I want to make the world a better place, and I feel obligated to do this thing. To make the world a better place is not really complete.

A (71:11)

I think a lot of it is also having no regrets or as little regrets as possible. Right? I mean, which is also part of it. And sometimes it is about the fun, the experience.

B (71:20)

Regret is such a powerful world. It links back to early part of the conversation about fear and shame. I have understood now and I talk about it in give first. I understand now what I regret that I didn't when I was 47. I didn't when I was 55. I don't regret anything that I failed at. I don't regret any failures. They're just experiences. I don't regret the hard things that I had to deal with or have to deal with or will have to deal with. I don't. I'm not afraid of those things. That's just part of the experience of life. The things I regret. The only real thing I regret. And I would say in business, there's some personal regrets that I would put around responsibility, but in business, my only real regrets are situations where I was passive avoidant. And frankly, in my personal life too, when I was passive avoidant, and I describe passive avoidant really simply, and I separated from being actively avoidant, which is something that I now choose to do, which I didn't for a long time choose to do. Passive avoidance is you see a problem somewhere and you understand that there's a problem. And it might be a direct problem that impacts you. It might be an indirect problem, but it's a problem in the sphere of influence of a thing you're involved in. The severity of it could range from not that big a deal to something that could be a really big deal. Passive avoidance is looking at it, acknowledging it, knowing it's there, and then consciously or sorry, not consciously, not dealing with it. Active avoidance is consciously deciding, I'm not going to do anything about that. And in fact, for me now, active avoidance is often saying it out loud. You know what? There's a problem over there. There's a giant pile of dog and.

A (73:00)

I'm not touching it.

B (73:03)

Not only am I not touching it, I'm not going to go near that corner anymore because there's a giant pile of dog in that corner. And if one of you would like to clean up that pile of dog, I'll come to the corner again. But until somebody cleans up the pile of dog, I'm out. I'm not just not cleaning it up. Bye. Right, that's active avoidance. Passive avoidance is stinky, smelly thing in the corner. I think I probably just wander over there. That's passive avoidance. And that's what I regret. When I think about the broken relationships I have, when I think about the things that didn't work, when I think about the things that I knew were problems that got worse, it's the passive avoidance is the regret.

A (73:40)

It's that you weren't intentional about saying yes or no, but you just weren't intentional, period.

B (73:48)

And sometimes you have an excuse. I'm too tired. I got too much other stuff to do. It's not really my problem, whatever. But you're sort of avoiding. And oh, by the way, I've cleaned up plenty of files of Dr. Including lots of them that weren't mine to clean up. Right. But that's different. The inverse of that which you see over and over again are people. And it's especially tiresome for me in today's society, you see a style of leadership where people are creating piles of dog in the corner and then blaming it on other people. And, you know, it's the inverse of my own value system. And so it's tiresome. But one of the interesting things about active avoidance versus passive avoidance is that there's some of that that I look at and I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to do anything about that. It's not mine.

A (74:36)

But you've got to have that authority.

B (74:37)

To say that human beings are going to be human beings. People are going to be what they are. Like, I'm not going to solve all of them. I'm going to choose where I'm going to put my energy on, the things that I actually think I can have impact on with people who I want to spend time with and I want to engage with. Like, that kind of thing is interesting, which if you think back to fear and shame and how that impacts a lot of people, especially as you get older, especially as you find yourself in this position where you've had success and relevance and, well, if I don't keep doing those things, am I going to still be relevant?

A (75:13)

And that's scary.

B (75:13)

Are people still going to care about me? Are people still going to want my opinion? And, you know, like, there's a great peacefulness in saying I don't care. Like, if nobody thinks any of this stuff is interesting, awesome. Go do your own thing. It's cool. Getting to that place was really hard.

A (75:30)

And Brad, I loved every minute of this conversation. I think this is like gold, gold, gold. Especially because a lot of our people are trying to figure out what's next, how do I create either more or, you know, more something, more balance, more impact, more finance, whatever. More something. Right. What would be last kind of like question, what would be maybe a tip for your younger self if kind of.

B (75:54)

Looking back, I'm going to play with a word that you just use that I would tell my younger self, which is balance. It's true through all of life. But I think especially for younger founders and for my younger self, there's this Whole thing about work life balance. And there's one end of the spectrum where people say there's no such thing as work life balance. If you're an entrepreneur, don't even try to have work life balance. The other end of the spectrum is this endless search for work life balance and try to figure out how to navigate all that stuff. Amy and I decided a long time ago delete the word balance from our vocabulary. Balance is kind of not the right word because balance means things are actually in balance. Like think of a scale where things are balanced. And that is never the way life works. Nothing ever is like that.

A (76:33)

You can have it all, just not at the same time. So now pick, right?

B (76:38)

There's no problem. So what we said is, you know, we're not gonna, we're not gonna go for balance, we're gonna go for harmony. And harmony is such a useful, wonderful word. I mean, it sounds beautiful as a word too, but you know, listen to improv jazz just randomly sometime. Listen to a live recording on Spotify of something and just let it play in the background. And what you'll notice is you'll sort of lose, you know, it'll fade into the background when it's in harmony, and then when it gets out of harmony, all of a sudden it'll move to the foreground. You'll be like, whoa, that's not quite someone that the drummer's off, you know, or the guy playing the sax, like, what's going on with that? And then it'll kind of get back into harmony and then it drifts back into the background. And so for us, and for me, I'm, I'm interested in harmony. I don't need balance in my day, I don't need balance in my week, my month, my life, anything. I just want most of the time it to be harmonious. And when it's not harmonious, it's a signal to me to sort of step back and pay attention. I wish my 25 year old self understood that. It would have saved that 25 year old self. 25 years of a lot of stress and tension and frustration and wrestling with like, what to do. So lucky that I ended up with Amy, who was relentless in her own way of not putting up with things that were not okay in the context of harmony for us in the relationship. The disharmonious part again, back to my 25 year old self, was simply when my words and my actions didn't match up. And an example I'd give of that, as I would say to Amy regularly Deeply in love. You're the most important person to me. You're my, you know, you're the priority in my life, whatever. And then in the middle of dinner, the phone would ring and I, in the middle of a conversation, go pick up the phone or I'd be 30 minutes late to dinner on a night we're going out together. Just one more email, you know, which is an endless joke. Like we look at each other. Just one more email, right? Like it can be a joke now. Light hearted. But it was like, no, actually, if you're, if, if your partner is the most important person or if your kids are the most important, they're the most important. And yes, sure, of course there's moments where you have to prioritize something else. But you can say, I gotta prioritize this other thing right now. And oh, by the way, if for five years you say I have to prioritize this other thing every time something else is going on. Like I, I didn't understand that until I was in my 50 something. So that would be what I would reflect back. Search for harmony, not for balance. Listen to things when they're not in harmony, really listen and understand what's not in harmony.

A (79:34)

I love this because I think a lot of it is just about being okay, being at peace with what's yes and what's no. Like I think that's the harmony piece is like saying, okay, like this is, I'm going to be present now. So Brad, this was so powerful. Thank you for showing up for the time. We're going to have all your links down in the thing, but how do you want them to reach you or to reach into obviously buy the book.

B (80:00)

And what else reach me is easy. It's brad@fel.com just give me context. Say I mentioned at the beginning before we started. I have another friend named Alana so people can say the other Alana. You're on Alana's podcast. Just to sort of context, but just I'm happy to get notes and then if this is inspiring or interesting, books available, you know, Amazon, any other online bookseller and you know, very serious statement, if you like the book, tell your friends, leave a review on Goodreads or Amazon or something like that. Do that and if you don't like the book, just throw it away.

A (80:34)

I love it. So reach out. We want to hear from you. And, and I hope you enjoyed it and let us know and thank you, Brad. This was incredible.

B (80:43)

This was a delight.

A (80:56)

I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. If you did, please share it with friends now. Also, if you're feeling stuck or simply want more from your own career, watch this 30 minute free training@leapacademy.com training. That's leapacademy.com training. See you in the next episode of the Leap Academy with Ilana Golan Show.