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The Corporate Ladder Is On Fire: How David Rogier Built MasterClass and What He’d Build Now | E165
00:58:28
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- [00:01]
A
Here's what we were told. If you work hard, if you go to the right schools, if you get the right internships, you are going to climb, you're going to be safe forever and you're going to earn enough to have a house, to send your kids a good school. It's not true. It's just not true.
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B
Today's guest literally gave access to the world's greatest minds. David Vaudiere is the founder and CEO of Masterclass. And David turned a $500,000 bet from his former boss into a global phenomenal.
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A
It's a new world and the old ways of doing it are going away. So you got to find new way ways to show that you have that skill set.
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B
How do you see the skills forming?
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A
I think the most important thing is,
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B
Hey, I have a favor to ask. I decided not to put any ads on the show because I don't want to vouch for things or products I don't really, really believe in. But in order for us to continue to bring these amazing guests, all I'm asking is if that's okay. Just click that like subscribe download button. Those mean to us more than you can think. So is that a good deal? Let's dive in. Welcome, welcome David. This is going to be so fun.
- [01:26]
A
I'm really excited to be here. It is an honor.
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B
It is so, so, so, so cool. And just one more thing, everybody. You remember every week I do, I do choose one question from our YouTube channel, Leap Academy with Zilan Golan. And this week I saw a brilliant question from Poonam who is asking about. Basically, you know, I'm reaching out to my network and I'm asking for introduction but it looks really crowded. What do I do? So we're going to answer this after this amazing conversation. David, your story is so, so, so inspiring. I gonna have to take you back in time a little bit. Can I take you back in time?
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A
Of course.
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B
This is gonna be so fun. So, so tell me. So first of all, I was so touched. The first time I heard about your story was your grandma share a little bit. How did that, like, did you grow close? Like how did that inspire you? I, I literally had tears in my eyes first time I heard this.
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A
My grandma was my hero. She, I'm just gonna get a little emotional about it. She was everything to me and we, you know, I'd stay with her after school almost every day. We would travel together once I got older, we would talk all the time and do lunch, do go out for lunch. I used to go with her to work, um, and just work at her office with her, you know, at a fabric company. Um. She was my hero. She is my hero. Yeah, she's my hero.
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B
And she told you a lot about. Like, what did she share? She. She shares stories like, how did you come into this realization that education is so important?
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A
So I was in second grade. I still remember this. And I. And I finished school that day, and I came and I came. I came to her house and. And my grandma always prepared for me a snack, which now sounds like a horrible snack, but I loved it as a kid. It was a bowl of apples and pickles. Sounds really gross now, but I don't know. I just. Apparently I really liked it. And I came home and I came to her house, and I was crying. I had a rough day in school.
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B
And,
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A
you know, I was in second grade, so, like, you know, it wasn't really that rough, but it seemed like it was rough.
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B
It feels rough. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. And my grandma told me that she has a story that she wants to tell me. And also in second grade, like, that's the last thing that you really want to hear. So when my grandma was 16, she was lit. She was living in Krakow, Poland, and she went on a family vacation with her mom. Her dad decided to stay home a couple extra days to finish some work while they're on vacation. The Nazis invade, invaded, they killed her father, and, you know, took everything. Her and her mom fled out of Europe to New York, and they were able to get there, and the only jobs that they were able to get were on a factory floor. So my grandma and her mom were working side by side. My grandma, working in the factory, decides that she wants to become a doctor. She applies by hand to every medical school in the state of New York, and she gets a no from every single medical school in the state of New York. She keeps working in the factory, side by side with her mom, and the next year decides, I'm going to apply again. I want to be a doctor. She again applies to every single medical school in the state of New York. Again, gets a no from every single medical school in the state of New York. My grandma has some chutzpah and decides to call up the deans of admissions from every school and ask, why am I not getting in? They all hang up on her, except for one who says, I'll be honest. You have three strikes against you. You are a woman, you're an immigrant, and you're Jewish. Hands up the thought. She keeps working the factory side by side with her mom. And next year decides to apply again to every Medical School in St. New York. She gets into one and becomes a doctor. And I'm staring at her because in second grade, this is intense stuff to be hearing from, just having, like, been whining about math homework. And she turns to me and she goes, look, David, the point is, is education is the only thing that someone can't take away from you. And that put everything to perspective.
- [05:38]
B
Yeah. Oh, my God. That's so. Like, if anybody's watching me on YouTube, I'm half crying here. But that, that, you know, I'll. I'll tame myself. But this is such a beautiful story, David. And, and speaking of, like, I assume that as a kid it was not easy. You did have some stutter.
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A
I still stuttered.
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B
And I. I'm sure it was not easy as a kid. Like, I'm sure people, you know, kids know how to be pretty rough. Like, what do you think it taught you?
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A
The kids are rough. It was also hard with the adults because I clearly saw I wasn't being called upon because I stutter. And so not only are you getting teased, but then you feel like you're not getting a fair shot to express yourself. My mom and dad did something that was really interesting. They basically said whenever they had friends over for dinner, their expectation was that I would join them for dinner and I would converse with them.
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B
Wow.
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A
It was almost like, we aren't gonna let the fact that you stutter become an obstacle to you. In fact, we're gonna hold you to a higher standard. That was really. I really appreciate that in retrospect, the negative side.
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B
You probably hated it, though. Like, you probably hated the moment. Am I wrong?
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A
Well, okay, so I think I probably hate at the moment. But then, but then, but then I came to like it because I'm now a chatterbox. Where it came to hurt me was back in school. I figured every teacher and adult wants to hear my point of view, which was not true. And was isolated just to my parents. So that got me into more trouble. But I think it was really good for my self esteem.
- [07:17]
B
I love that. And we're gonna have so much fun in this podcast then. So I love it. So take us like a little bit into the future because you've done a few things before. Masterclass. But something like, raised that idea of, I actually want to start this thing. What was it? How did it even form?
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A
So I was in grad school and I went and worked for after school at a venture capital firm and I think a lot of things are going through my head that, you know, I have one chance and I don't want to. I have one life and I want to make it count. And what that meant for me is I don't want to be on my deathbed and hopefully a long time and not have at least try to make the world a bit better. So I went to my boss and I was like, hey, thanks so much, but I'm going to quit. And he asked me what am I going to do? And I said, I don't know yet, but I want to start something. He goes, what? I said, I'm not sure. And he writes me a check for half a million and tells me to go think of an idea.
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B
Wait, wait, wait. Take me, take me there for a second. Because, like, people don't just randomly write you.
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A
It was incredibly generous, I think. I mean, nobody's ever done that for me, obviously before. I mean, part he's a venture capitalist, part I'd worked for him and he was a professor, some classes. So he knew me for a while. But I remember, I mean, if you can believe this, Lana, like, I was like, I need to think about it. That was my response. And I tried to act all cool and I walked outside and I called my mom and I told her and she's like, what is there to think about? But it was like, well, yeah, all this in my head. So I obviously said yes. And then here's where it was. Surprising response. The next year, my life became very dark. Time in my life. Because for the first time in my life, I didn't have any constraints. I felt such a moral pressure, if you will, to do something of impact. You also. I can't complain about it to anybody because what, what am I gonna say? I have half a million dollars, I can do anything I want. Oh, can I get a hug, please?
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B
I mean, like, you lost the empathy. That's it.
- [09:28]
A
I wouldn't have any empathy for it. And somebody, she gave me a great constraint. She said, choose something that even if it fails, you would be proud of it. That was a brilliant constraint to me. I think sometimes we need constraints to be create to spur our creativity. And then I thought about my. My grandmother and you know, the lessons I learned from her. I just told you. And so then, you know, I incorporated the company and our holding company is actually named after her. So it's Yanka Industries, which was her nickname. And so. And I decided that I want to do something that it cannot be take. I can create something that Other people can't take away from each other.
- [10:09]
B
Oh, that's so powerful. Oh my God, that's amazing. So, so tell me so. And I want to go for a second into that dark place because in Leap Academy you put a lot of focus on reinvention and because the people that we see usually have done a lot. They tick the, you know, some boxes of success. And now they're like, who am I without my title? Who am I without my job? I want more for myself. I want to create a bigger life. I've no clue what it is. And that lack of clarity is really, really, really hard. So how, you know, take me to these baby steps for a second.
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A
I think it's debilitating in some ways because so much of our identity in the modern world is based on our profession and work. But I'll even say more than that. I think so much of our, we are incentivized and rewarded from a very early age to seek and gain the approval of others. And entrepreneurship is by nature a rejection of that. So if you, when you tell people about the idea, I mean, I told you about the ideas ahead, almost everybody says your idea sucks. And that like really hits hard because at the time, I mean, you want good, you want great grades, you want your boss to give you a promotion, you want your mom and dad to think, you know, to be proud of you, whatever.
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B
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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A
And so, and then you start realizing that in fact, if nine out of people say your idea is good, it's probably not a good idea because that means like, it's a consensus idea. Entrepreneurship is usually about finding the thing, the missed opportunity, the opportunity other people do not see. So in fact, now when 9 out of 10 people say something's impossible, I've like try to train myself that, that's when I lean in. Now, now at the time, that was not the case. And that took, you know, a lot of, you know, self work to get there.
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B
Right. And I appreciate that you're sharing this. I mean, I think from time to time I do share that One of the hardest moments in my life was when I was pushed out of my own startup and suddenly, you know, the floor fell, you know, like from a VP and entrepreneur and CEO, and suddenly I'm a nobody. Right. And how do you recover from being a nobody? How do you start, you know, taking a deep breath?
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A
Identity is a really important of a construct, but I think the risk and fear of having that based on something that you don't have tons of control over or is so Dependent on other people's approval of you has some strong negative effects.
- [12:49]
B
Yeah. Or climbing on the wrong tree just because people will be proud of you. Or that's the cool thing to say and do. Right. So take me into the baby steps that you actually start masterclass because you also have some hustle that you need to do. It's not like, you know, people like, like to see the end, but they don't see the hustle that actually went through it. Like, take me to those steps.
- [13:11]
A
One of the most important things did early on was, with the help of some folks, said, what are the things that must be true for this to work? Okay. You have to get the best in the world to actually agree to teach number one. Number two, they have to be good at teaching or you have to be able to make them good in teaching. Three, you have to be able to sell it. Those are the three things. Now, the longest and hardest part was that first part, because I don't come from that Hollywood world. So you have to get these people to say yes. That was a long process. Glad to share about that. But that is just hustle. But while that happened, I figured we could test and learn and experiment on number two and three. So number two and two, I'm making a great class. Well, I can make test classes. So we actually filmed a test class with my dad, who's a divorce lawyer, about how to get a divorce. We didn't sell it, but it was just the craft of making it. My mom is a fiber artist. We worked on a class on fiber art. So we did tests like that. And then to sell a class, we actually filmed another class by another author under a different brand, and just put that out there and just said, hey, can we actually sell it? So I could learn and work on two and three, as I knew one was going to take time, which was to get people to say yes to open the doors.
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B
Yeah. But let's talk about this for a second, David, because first of all, the art of opening doors is actually one of the most important skills. I think especially.
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A
I have strong thoughts on this. Yes, I totally agree.
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B
So we can totally geek this out, because I'm like, a big believer. But you needed to hustle to get the first. After a few firsts, you can stand on the shoulders and retire, but the first ones. Talk to me about that, David.
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A
It's really hard. I think there's a lost art of, like, influencing people who are more that you want something from or more influential than you. And in the business world, if you get somebody who knows somebody, somebody will introduce you and then you're able to hop on the phone with them. In Hollywood, that is the opposite of how it works. In fact, everybody big in Hollywood has a five to ten people around them. That job is to actually, to push you away, to actually stop that from happening. So you have to start getting very good at figuring out how, how should influence. And I think there's two different parts. I think one is how do you construct some, a thing that they're going to want to be a part of and what is in it for them? And we quickly realize, hey look, I can't offer them cash cause I only have a half a million, but what is it I can play into? I can play into they, you know, did they have somebody who was a mentor to them? Can, can they be a mentor to people at scale? Right. So can I play into that? But then at the opposite side, you have to really protect that. What they're going to really care is about brand risk. Are they going to look bad? And so what things can I put together my offer to them that is going to hedge that, right? So hey, if I get an Oscar winning film director who's going to film it? Well, odds are they aren't they, they, their person's not going to look as bad if it's Oscar winning film director who they know of and if they work with, well then there's even more comfort there. Right? So how are you able to do that? One of the things we did from a structural perspective is we actually gave them approval rights over the classes. Hollywood, that never happens. An actor never gets approval rights over a film. This was really important to us because it was a lesson from instructors because that way the instructors are going to feel more comfortable with it. Right. And I'll be honest, when, if Martin Scorsese is going to provide you notes, I'm going to take his notes. So like it's not a pain at all, right? And so that was from a structural standpoint. But then to even get there, you have to get in the door and you have to make them want to hear you.
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B
Right.
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A
And I think that's a lost craft and a lost art. So people are more likely to listen to you and hear you out if they, if the person likes you. The easiest way to get somebody to like you is to show a genuine interest in that person's life. So I usually when I meet somebody, I ask them a bunch of questions. Now the trick is to ask them questions about things that they want to talk about. So I fell in this trap. I'd ask them questions I want to talk about, which, like, doesn't work so well. So you gotta ask some questions that they actually want to talk about. And it has to be on an authentic basis. If you fake it, they're gonna all be able to tell instantly. Just by doing that alone, the person will at least hear you out a little bit more. Then you've gotta figure out what is it that person is gonna land best with that person. If I'm pitching an agent in Hollywood to somebody, what does an agent want? An agent wants to make their client a bunch of money and wants to not look bad. So you're actually doing a lot of, like, risk aversion things, but you're actually, like, working. Okay, how do I influence the agent to get to that main person? I'm going to give a tangible example. Most people think it's their boss who actually determines if they get a raise. It is not your boss. It is your boss's boss. And so you have to do things for your boss to look good to in front of their boss, and then you have to look good in front of their boss. And that's how you actually get a raise. So, like, you have to be that. I think that is a mindset. I have a whole list of things. Another thing is when somebody asks you a question, you have to remember they're not really that interested most of the time. So the answer you give has to be very short, has to be concise, and has to have impact. Usually I think a way to do it. If somebody asks you how you are doing, you don't be like, well, it's hot outside, so, yeah, I'm a little tired. No, you share something that's personal about your life. And a short thing like, you make it so it's personable and impactful and yeah.
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B
Oh, I mean, you speak my language. And I also say one more thing. I think you can always give some value to someone else. If you don't know what it is, that means you didn't find it yet. But there's always something you can give
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A
100% agree with you. And it's not about asking, how can I help you? Because usually people say, I don't need anything. If you find out what their interests are, you know, what they're curious about. Oh, they really like to ski. Well, maybe you have. And they're talking about these ski trips. Well, maybe you have a friend that has access to a slope that they. I don't Know, like, you know, some things like that.
- [19:43]
B
Oh, we so agree. So, yeah, I think, you know, and this is how you kind of hustle and you do cold calling and you try to get to, I don't know, Dustin Hoffman, Savannah Williams. Da, da, da. Right. Like you're so. So you. You get a little bit or talk to me a little bit. So you get there and then the floods just open or is there sleepless nights? Oh, my God. This. I don't know if this is going to work.
- [20:05]
A
Oh. So, I mean, getting the first three instructors made it way easier to get the other instructors. But even once we got, you know, the first five, you have to make the classes, which. Which was stressful. But then once we make the classes, you have to see if they're going to sell. We launch on day one. I figure it's going to be a gigantic day because I've been working on this for years, so it's the most important thing to me. So thus it must be the most important thing to everybody else in the world.
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B
Right?
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A
And. And I remember somebody on my team got. Gave. Gave me as a gift, like a port. A port. A portable phone charger, because they said that your phone's gonna be off the hook. I did not get a single call that day. Um, and we had sales. I think my mom was our first. Was the first person to buy, and it just wasn't that many sales. And I went home and I actually cried. And I'm not like a big crier. And I called my mom and dad and I was like, you know, I'm screwed. I put my name on the line in front of, you know, these biggest name people on the planet who devote their time, and this is not going to work. And they told me I have to fake it until I make it. Next day, I get to work and I run a guy on our marketing team, and he has a big smile on his face. I was like, what's going on? He's like, this is going to be a huge business. I was like, sorry, what? And he's like, I'm looking at how much I'm spending on marketing, looking how I could scale it. I can scale it. And so day two, day three, day four, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, if this is how sales are going to go, this is going to be like a good business. So I say, the day we launched, I thought we, we. I was done for. And then the day after that, I thought it was going to be a big business.
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B
And I think this Is such a,
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A
it alternates every day after that.
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B
Exactly. I want to say, like, this is like, I feel like some people are like, oh, you've arrived. I'm like, you don't know how much I didn't arrive, you know? Or like, is that ever arrived?
- [21:52]
A
I think one of the most interesting things I've learned as we have sat in a cross from a Christina Aguilera and Steph Curry and Martin Scorsese. I had this wrong assumption. I had this assumption that once you reach that level, you kind of just chill. You do, you kind of do a concert if you want to. You play in the games. You want to like, you just heard chill. I was completely wrong. These people, the day you film, when the day you start filming, they're asking tons of questions for any feedback, any notes after you film. They are looking for the focus groups. What did they like, what did what things did they not like, once it's launched, they have ideas for how to improve it. And it made me really stop. If Christina Aguilera is still trying to hone her craft and still thinks she has room to improve, how can I not do that? And so I realized, I think if you strive to be the best in the world, you are never done right.
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B
And, and you better freaking hustle. And, and I think I, who was it, Tom Bilyeu? That kind of said on the podcast, it's like, don't ask me what the minimum you can do. Ask what's the maximum you can bear. And I, okay, so it's gonna be heavy.
- [23:05]
A
I think I, I, I never heard that. I think that, I think that is, is, is actually quite brilliant. I think there are things you learn that you need to do maximum effort, and then there's some things you don't. And I think part, part of to fail so many times is you learn about, okay, this thing I thought was important actually isn't. And I need to be spending my maximum effort on this.
- [23:26]
B
You raised by now 500 million or whatever and talk to me a little bit. And it's interesting to hear you, right, because you look at the number and you know, masterclass and you see the, you know, all the accolades and the amount of people that want to speak there and teach there. And it literally feels like you arrived, but it looks like it's still a roller coaster because it's always is. Can you share actually story from like actually growing? Because I think there's also a myth that once you're going to launch, this is it. Like, this is the hardest thing but actually, when you launch, this is like actually the easiest it's ever going to be because actually growing is even a lot harder. So take me there for a second. David.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah. I think the types of problems you deal with change and I'd argue that most companies have the same problems at the same stage which stage you're in. So, you know, you get to a stage where the company's growing, but the people who got you there aren't going to be able to get you the rest of the way. As a first time co, that's very difficult. I'm kind of resistant to it. I've trusted these people a lot. I think they have potential and it's just a disaster. It's just a disaster. And so, and not Trevor. They're obviously p. Folks at scale, but you know, but that, and then, you know, around that time we did, we had an HR consultant come in and do a thing on our culture, our company culture. And I took everything anybody said so painfully and then you realize, like, maybe I was a little oversensitive. Like, you know, like a little oversensitive to some of this stuff. Right? And like, you know, you would read this, oh my God. But then you go talk to the person, the person's like, fine. You're like, oh, I really had a different voice of you saying it. Right. And then there's other stages where I think as CEO, one of the hardest part is that, is that your job changes every couple of months. And no, and no, there's anybody who tells you how the job's changing and that has changed. And so you constantly have to acquire new skills that you don't know, didn't even think about. I mean, I become more of an expert on, I mean, on contracts there's so many tons of things that you, you just don't think that you would be spending your time on, but actually becomes quite similar. And then, you know, one of the big areas I had to grow on was, you know, the, there was wisdom, especially in tech, that as you grow, you need to hire great people and get out of there, get out of their way. I think that was horrible advice. I think that's really horrible advice and I think it's plagued a whole class of companies because then when things change like they did in the pandemic, post pandemic, you're actually not equipped and your team isn't equipped to actually adapt. And so I had to transition to learning how to delt. Hand stuff off. And then I had to realize this is not working. I have to come back. But then I overcorrect and you have to adjust. So you know, I mean, and that. So it's always growing and changing.
- [26:43]
B
You right now spoke my language. But yeah, it's like so true, so true. Because I think you, you don't want to micromanage, so you let go. But then when you let go, you can't adapt fast enough when you actually need it. So it's like, oh crap, right?
- [26:59]
A
And organizations have their own inertia, if you will. I mean organizations as a strategy instructor in grad school who always said that like the organizations are actually usually designed to slow change. And if you think about it, organizations are introduced to increase, to establish a level of predictability process are functional experts. Then starts going, all the political stuff starts just rising from that. And like organizations are not nimble. It's very hard to make a large organization be nimble for a long stretch of time.
- [27:45]
B
So take me there for a second because let's dive into this era of AI. It's crazy. It's changing so many paradigms from work and careers and it's everything. And how do you see first of all just AI changing how people learn, how people work? Like what do you see from your standpoint in Masterclass?
- [28:08]
A
It's phenomenal. And if you use can change your life in ways that we've always dreamed of, and if you don't, it can impose large costs. So let me talk about the positive side. The outcomes on education are truly outstanding. There was a study from the World bank that took I believe 10,000, I might be wrong on the number. 10,000 school kids in Nigeria, I believe who they were all taking English class. Half of them just took the English class. The other half and on the afternoons, a couple days a week, use ChatGPT you to use that ChatGPT in the pedagogically structured way for 18 hours was the equivalent to a year and a half in the classroom. Let me say that again. 18 hours was equivalent to a year and a half in the classroom. And the results held after a year. I was skeptical of that. I found out who worked on that project. I emailed them, I talked to them on the phone. I asked them to explain everything that they. That that person did. I couldn't find any flaws in their structure. I asked them if it would, if I replicated it for adults, do they think it would work? They said absolutely would. Very skeptical. I reached out to our academic advisors at Wharton and Harvard, asked them the same thing. They, they actually said, look, Dave, if You look at that study and other studies, it's so well shown that you actually do not even need to run your own study. I ran my own study anyways. I took a group of our students. I had them watch a Chris Voss negotiat negotiation class. Chris Ross is the former lead FBI hostage negotiator. Had.
- [29:47]
B
Yeah, we actually had him on the podcast. It was so fun. Yeah, yeah.
- [29:50]
A
Okay. So a third of people took his class. A third used Chachi BTS in study mode. And then a third used a combination of those two with our pedagogy. That third group learned the same amount in the first two groups, but in 2/3 less time. So you start thinking about this. This is why this is so amazing is we've known for the academic work for a long time that one on one instruction produces far better outcomes. The problem is just cost has been impossible. Now you can do it. Every school kid, every adult in this world can now have a tutor. If that's done right and the tutorial Darina's done well, that will be a gigantic leap in education for everybody in this world. And it's. And, and the cost is, is marginal. So I think that to me is amazing and exciting. As an example, the other side I If you look at any technological innovation from. If you take the invention of the spreadsheet for example, which I think is an underrated piece of tech, it destroyed the whole careers. There were career of clerks. It destroyed them. If you look at the date, at the stats of what happens when a mass destruction of a workforce like that or from innovation, the results are worse than that. If you get, if you're part of that, not only do you lose your job, but your income over your life declines by over 20% and even worse, your mortality rate in the first year it doubles. So losing your job from a displacement is very, very bad. But if you look at that spreadsheet, it created a whole new profession of financial and the lists. And now because the cost of running stats and math was way less, it was a net gain. It's just the people who gained were not the same people who lost. And so I think with the. The thing we have to watch out for is how do we per. How do we make that group that lose, that's going to lose as small as possible.
- [32:10]
B
And I do believe, I love what you said, I mean we personally have the entire kind of personal branding all done with AI et cetera. Because you're going to have to adapt really, really fast. And I do believe it's a combination of how fast can you do with AI and then the learning. But I think what you just talked about is super fascinating because I think we are seeing a society change that we've never seen before. And you know, I think we, I mean we just helped, I don't know, like, you know, a company help, you know, restructured them, they had to lay off a thousand people and just, we absorbed all of them because just, you know, our placement will just fix their resume. But they don't necessarily land the same kind of job. So they need to reinvent themselves, become their own economy, stretch to portfolio careers and do something different. They can't just, you know, submit the resume again, like that's not going to take it.
- [32:58]
A
If you are laid off, you need to find another job as fast as possible, but you ideally want to be training before that happens so that the job you get isn't the same type of job you had, but is actually one for that new evolved world. So I think the, I mean the nice thing or like I'm trying to look for some pros here, right, for these and is like the, this is a playbook in some ways that has been done before so that you're able to get ahead of it. Like, you know, right now you should be learning, learning how to apply AI in every part of your work. And if you aren't doing it, my argument is either one, you gotta look inside about what's holding you back. Is it fear? Is it fear of learning something new? Is it fear that the skills I learned aren't worth something? And you just gotta say, hey, look, just like a Christina Aguilera and a Martin Scorsese or are constantly trying to evolve and never think that they're great. Like maybe take that approach. Right? And that's okay. And that's isn't a knock on you two is you might say, hey, I don't know where and how to do it. I'd push you on that. There are plenty of places to help you do it. If not, I'm glad to help you find them, but there's plenty. And then third, and then third is time. And I think time is actually a real thing for people. I think though now because of AI, because of how effective it is at teaching you, you can do it in much less time than you can Pat.
- [34:21]
B
Exactly. And again, this is a shout out to masterclass, right? You guys have lessons from all the biggest people in the world. We have a different type of learning. Find help. There's so much help around. Just Find yours. Just find yours. But. And I want to take you for a second, David, because in Leap Academy, I always talk about, like, the three most important skills for the future of work. And. And again, I. I want to hear kind of your thoughts around it. Like, for me, you know, there's like, adaptability and how do you rise above the noise and how do you become your own economy? And there's like, I have my whole spiel that probably people heard before, but I would love to hear a little bit like, how do you see kind of the skills forming? I mean, obviously you need to know AI. That's. That's a given for me. That. That's just the thing.
- [35:08]
A
But I think there's skills, like, above it. Then le. Then lead to that. I think. I think the most important thing is your learning velocity is how fast you're able to learn. And to learn means adapt, right? Like, I mean, to learn adapt, right? It's very similar. And I think it's not just the processing of information. It's the openness to hear the new information. I mean, this is the one thing I had to get way better at. And I'm still trying to. When I would get any, any feedback from somebody, it was personal to me. I had to learn. And I'm still learning that, hey, that's one person's input. I get to decide if I think it's true or not. And if it is, well, then I'm glad I know that. So then I can decide if I want to improve that area or not. Right. And so, like, you know that I think that. So that's number one is on learning velocity. Second thing is, I think is learn is the learning. I know this is like, is actually learning how to execute. I think there is craft to it. There are people that get stuck doing things. There are people that go off the path and come back. It is such an underrated skill. But I think learn that. And then the third one is, are the p. Are all the. Are the people skills? I think how to lead, how to manage, how to influence, how to have a hard conversation. I think in the world of AI, all those become worth even more.
- [36:33]
B
Right. And I want to say something about the learning. I think it's really, really important because I thought. And I think this is where people need to catch themselves. I actually thought that. I'm a very curious listening person. It took me time to realize, you know, there's this cliche that the biggest thing is what you don't know, that you don't know. I Will argue the biggest thing is what you think, you know, but you know wrong. And I was listening to argue, not really listening to absorbing a lot of times. And maybe it's my origin.
- [37:07]
A
When did you, you think realize that or how or when did you realize that?
- [37:11]
B
I think when I became an entrepreneur, I was forced to realize that there was a lot of things that I didn't admit, I didn't think were. I was just like, mindset is not a thing I don't believe in. You know, I mean, there were just things that I didn't believe in, and they were some of the things that were holding me back because I just kept running into a ceiling. And I think that just a big
- [37:35]
A
thing, a hundred percent. And I don't know if you feel this way. I felt while I hate that realization, especially in the beginning, it's like enlightening after it hits you because you're like, well, I've been seeing the world this way. That's not. Whoa, right. Like, it's just. I feel like I see more after I get one of those feedback.
- [37:53]
B
I know, but now I want to catch people that are where I was, you know, And I'm like, don't let your ego hold you back. Like, because it, for me, it was ego, right? Like, I got to this VP world, I, you know, ticked the box. I don't need to, like, I got this, I got this. I will be okay. And man, was I wrong. But I think the, the bigger the ego, the bigger the fall. So.
- [38:18]
A
That's right. I think that's right. Ray. One thing I found was I got a couple advisors. So every, every phase, I mean, I try to get a couple advisors who are stage or two ahead of me. In the beginning, I overdid it. And so then I was asking like a thousand people for advice, which then slowed me down. But having those is so nice because you go to them and you're like, oh my God, look. I'm like, you know, here's a problem. I'm really stuck on it. And they're like, oh, yeah, I had that happen. All you got need to do is this and this. And you're like, whoa, that's just saved. Like, you know what I mean? And so, like, I realized that is. It's awesome. I also found interesting with. With choosing advisors. Actually, it's really interesting because I think a board member advisor are two different types of people you want because a board member, it's very important that person collaborates in a way that works with you because you're gonna have to make joint calls together and decisions. An advisor doesn't have to because an advisor, you don't have to take any of their advice. So I found I can have advisors that have very strong points of view that I would not want to argue with but actually great because then you could hear it and then I can decide if I want to take, I want to take your advice. But those people tend to get me to think, think bigger because they have such a crazy point of view on things.
- [39:32]
B
Oh, I love that. That's such a good point. Because again, you don't want only yes people by your side, right? Like you want them maybe on your board but in general, like you want somebody that will hammer you and kind of push you and stretch you which, which I love. So, so, so tell me for a second like how do you see. And I know you guys are also morphing a little bit and you're expanding masterclass or you know, master executive. And I want to kind of hear first of all, like how do you see AI? Like reshaping hiring and workforce development and career strategy. Like how do you see again it's all going to happen faster and people will need to adapt. Like how do you see all of this forming? How is it changing?
- [40:15]
A
I think there will be three types of jobs. Number one is the gen is the generalist. This person now has to be good at a bunch of different things, has to be good at seeing the whole board before it's not just like hey, I'm good at brand marketing and performance marketing. No, no, you're good at marketing and finance. It's like that level of like kind of breath and you've got to have exposure to lots of things. So I think that's going to be one profession almost or skill set we're going to see. It's the return of the generalists I think is going to happen. The second I think you'll see are entry level people who execute well,
- [41:04]
B
who
- [41:04]
A
are going to be pretty cheap but like are good executing or using AI. And the third group is world class people who specialize in a thing or specialists, world class specialists. So who does this eradicate most of corporate jobs if you're a manager, a director, even a vp and almost any functional area from accounting to press to social media, a generalist with Claude or ChatGPT if they can do your work 80% as good as you can, which I'll be honest, is true for most people, you need to find a different skill set and develop it. Now if you're one of those people in this specialty who is top 1%. If you're a copywriter, if you're a good copywriter, you were screwed. If you're 0.1% good on copyright, like, if you're one of the best in the world and you use AI, you are going to be unstoppable. But you have to have a reality check. Are you actually in the top 1% or do you have a chance to get into the 1%? And most people are not in the 1%. But we are very bad at assessing ourselves. I think I remember I got an mba and they ran a study. They asked us to do a survey, how many of us think that we are in the top 20% of the class. 80% of us said we're in the top 20%. So we are very bad ourselves at assessing where we are
- [42:40]
B
so good. And. And again, I think there's also, like you said, like, AI just made everyone average. And if you're not even average, you don't have a shot. Right? Like, if you're not even, like, playing in the average. But I think what's interesting is also, like, how do you also package yourself as a category of one? So even if you are a generalist, how do you rise above the noise? How do you package yourself so well that people will say, oh, my God, like, this is exactly what I need? Because I think this is what the difference is.
- [43:11]
A
Am I. I totally agree. I think what you need to do in this era is you have to create work that. That actually shows that. So I think if you're trying to apply for a job, I would take any Fortune 100 company that you want to work at. I guarantee you, if you spend a month with AI, they are going to be behind you. You. You do a project for them, not being asked, like, unsolicited, you actually do a project for them with AI, you send. I would send it over to the team, to their team leader, basically say, hey, look, if I was working for you, I would get this done for you in a week. Or, here's what I can make in a week, right? And so I think you got to show that same thing. The pro, the thing that we just launched, like, is about how do you establish your own brand and prestige so that you're able to get those jobs. And I think there. It's a new world. So I think the old ways of doing it are going away. I think schools are worth less. What. What degrees you have are worse, are worth less. I think what companies you work, you worked at are worth less. So you got to find new ways to show that you have that skill set.
- [44:16]
B
Right. And I'll tap into that, David, because I want to go into for a second the masterclass executive. I think people don't even realize how many options there are still on the menu. So even, you know, I think we're so like, we look at the corporate ladder and this is the only thing we know. But there's a whole portfolio of things that you can do to monetize your expertise. I mean, you could be a fractional. You could be consultant, coach, whatever, advisor board, speaker, whatever. I can go on and on. The list is endless. And if you start looking at yourself and saying what else is available? Maybe the corporate ladder, this one thing is not necessarily the only way for you to go. Like, maybe there's a portfolio of things that you want to actually conquer. Right.
- [45:01]
A
Our symbol for this project internally is a corporate ladder or is a ladder in a parking lot that is on fire and it burns out. All done.
- [45:12]
B
I need to show you, because we've done exactly the same thing, and I had no clue.
- [45:16]
A
This is so funny because I think it's being destroyed and being re rebuilt. Here's what we were told. We're told if you get, if you go, if you work hard, if you go to the right schools, if you get the right internships, if you get the right jobs, you work hard enough a job, you get a promotion, you are going to climb and you're going
- [45:37]
B
to be safe forever.
- [45:38]
A
And you're going to be safe forever.
- [45:39]
B
You retire with a golden watch. Boom.
- [45:42]
A
Yep. And you're going to earn enough to have a house to send your kids to good school. It's just not true. If you look unemployment, you look at the debt Americans have, it's just not true. So what we said was, can we use what we've learned about how AI is going to teach people or how AI can teach people in a faster way? Can you basically reimagine a business school for this era? And if you did that, what would it look like? Well, number one, it wouldn't be taught the same way. It wouldn't be for two years. It wouldn't be for 200,000 bucks. The things you learn are going to be things that you can apply the very same day at your job and work. And it's got to prepare you for job and work that isn't going to look the same. So we took all those things and we said, okay, how do we do this one we're going to teach it through AI. So it's very much on the personalized basis because we know if we do that, we, we're able to compress years of education into three months. So that's what we did. By doing that, we can also bring down the cost, right? So Instead of spending $200,000 on MBA, you can do this for 2,500 bucks. Second, we said, who should the faculty be? Who should be trying to figure out, well, it should be people who are helping to create these new AI companies, from OpenAI to Eleven Labs to Gamma should do it. Who else should do it? You also want it from people who are thriving in this economy and have thrived through multiple shifts in it. If you look at Mark Cuban, he's thrived in multiple types of tech shifts, right? You look at Gary V, he's done the same thing. So he said, okay, let's get those. Then let's also look at the academics who have taught things that aren't going to change but are going to broaden your scope. So what I mean by this is everybody needs to now learn something about finance. However, you don't need to do the finance on a calculator. You just know how to have to know how to put into ChatGPT, ask it the right questions, know what to actually look for. So, you know, we gotta teach that. So we tried to combine all that and we did it in collaboration with OpenAI and the University of Chicago booth so that you then get a stamp approval from all three of us. And my hope is, is that it's an opportunity for people who feel that they're going to be left behind for a fraction of the cost to become one of those people that actually thrive.
- [48:24]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, good, because you have basically all the people that I talk to in the podcast. So I'm like excited for that. But David, what. What should people know right now about you? Where did they find. And I mean, I know where they found masterclass, but where did they find more information and all the good stuff?
- [48:47]
A
If you're interested in the pro, any of the programs I mentioned, just go to masterclass.com we have tons of information there for our core classes, for our certs, for this, you know, MBA like thing I just described. I've been sharing more and more of my own thoughts and research that we are finding on my, on my LinkedIn so you can check that out.
- [49:10]
B
Amazing. And, and maybe one last question. Maybe Mark, if you would meet yourself maybe earlier in your career, maybe when you Were debating whether, like, in that evening when you're trying to launch and it doesn't work, or like one or one of those dark times when you're trying to figure out what's next, what would you wish you would tell yourself or somebody would have told you?
- [49:33]
A
Trust your therapist. So that's number one. That's like a 10 joke. I think I probably say. Yeah, I would say it's going to be okay. And like, don't be so hard on yourself. I think everybody who listens to, to, to, to you, Lana, and this podcast are going to be people who are driven or curious or interested in the world. So all you have that raw material. So just I don't think we need to let. And I let fear, you know, have big impact on my life. I don't think, you know, fear can have a quiet. It's going to be impossible for most people on this podcast to have fear, not be any voice. But I think we can turn down the volume of fear and that's still going to be enough fear to push us and just go be ourselves and learn and grow. And this group, I'm sure, is going to do great.
- [50:26]
B
Oh, amazing. And maybe I'll add one more thing because you reminded me is because there's always a game between patience and hustle. Right. And you want a little bit of both because you, you want to hustle, hustle, hustle. But you also need to realize some things will just kind of take time.
- [50:42]
A
Yes.
- [50:42]
B
And I think that's really hard for driven people is like that little bait, patience. So on one hand, I gonna work as hard as I can, but on the other hand, I will understand that some of it will just kind of take its course, if you will. Is that true, David?
- [50:57]
A
I think so. I think entrepreneurs have an inflated sense of how fast they're able to drive things or how they're able to do things other people can't. And so I think that's a positive thing. But I think when you plan from it from like a monetary perspective, you have to give yourself a little bit extra time because, you know, I think there's a quote from Elon Musk when he. When Elon sets a goal, he sets a goal to be that there's a 50% chance I can hit that goal. Well, that I don't know about you all. That wasn't how I was trained. I was trained. You set a goal like you really want to hit it. So, like, it's a 95 chance or 90 chance, but I think I, I think that's a good thing. But then you just have to make sure that you're saving enough money and energy so that you might fail. Right.
- [51:44]
B
And.
- [51:44]
A
Or it might take you a little bit longer. Yeah.
- [51:47]
B
Amazing, David. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for being on the show and for sharing so many nuggets. I could probably talk to you for hours. So thank you for all of this. Hey, thanks for listening. What an incredible conversation. That was so, so fun. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And I want to answer this amazing question that we got on our YouTube channel, but right before I do, I just have a small, small, small ask if you can take literally one second to subscribe, download. It really helps us continue to bring amazing guests. Plus, I'm on a mission to help 10 million people with their careers and with their lives. And so if you have peers or friends or family that can enjoy this, please share this podcast with them or this episode because it will mean the world. Now, I selected a great question from Poonam. Thank you, Poonam. On our Leap Academy Ilana Leap Academy with Ilana Gulen YouTube channel and she said that she's reaching out to her network, but she's not landing the role that she wants. And that's such a beautiful question and I want to address it. So there are three things that you need to note. So the very first thing I want you to check if you are very, very clear about the kind of opportunities that you're looking for. So if you're very vague, people don't realize what your special sauce is. And if you don't really crystallize your zone of genius and package yourself as a category of one that you can't rise above the noise, it's too noisy right now. And if you are not uniquely special, this is your zone of genius. This is why they have to have you. Then you're just in the people's pile. So number one, package yourself and get really, really clear about who you are, what you want to be known for, and how you package yourself. Number two is how do you start attracting and opening opportunities for yourself? How do you open doors? And there's a whole psychology of influence and getting to a yes. But the bottom line is you going to need to start opening doors for yourself in order to and to understand exactly what doors you're opening. And do they understand how you can be of help? The number three that you want to understand is how do you build an authority to play in the hidden market? What I mean by hidden market is there are right now opportunities floating in the air all the time, opportunities that are opening up. But the problem is they are not on job boards. They're opening up. And basically people are asking, hey, who do you know? The question is, are you top of mind according to what you want to be known for and will people bring opportunities to you? So these opportunities are already there. Your knowledge, your expertise is still needed, but the question is, are people thinking about you and will they bring those opportunities according to what you want to be known for, et cetera. The last thing that I will say, no matter what, there's 8 billion people in the world, maybe even more now, there's no way that you can package your expertise and sell it. So you can package it through consulting, coaching, advising, et cetera, and boards, whatever. And so if you can package your knowledge and share that, you're going to be so, so, so impactful and maybe you won't need a job. So hopefully this helps a little bit. Poonam, let me know. And again, if your organization is experiencing a big layoff or a small layoff, please reach out. We'll come and help. We have many, many solutions, including AI personal branding solutions. We're happy to provide some of them for free. So we hope thousands of individuals not just write a resume, but reinvent themselves all together, land the next big role or build a revenue generated business or branch into portfolio careers. So if this is something that your employees will enjoy or if you believe somebody else needs to hear it, please send it to them. And reach out to podcast at leapacademy. Com. That's podcast at leapacademy. Com. I'll see you next week.