Podcast
Learning Through Experience
Hosted by Yale School of Management · EN
Leadership isn't just what you know—it's how you show up. Learning Through Experience is a Yale School of Management podcast hosted by Dr. Heidi Brooks. Each episode explores how leaders learn through the moments that matter: meetings, relationships, decisions, and dilemmas. Drawing on guests' wisdom and questions from listeners, the show turns insight into practice and transforms life into a learning laboratory.
12episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
The Everyday Leadership of Coaching with Zoe Chance
Apr 1700:43:31Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Heidi Brooks and Zoe Chance invite you to step out of the transactional pursuit of influence and into the relational, visceral reality of self-influence through coaching. Through their conversation, Heidi and Zoe take you on a journey to reframe coaching not as a corrective tool for fixing what is broken, but as an enlivening stance for everyday leadership and human connection. You'll get a sneak peak into the big ideas guiding the upcoming professional coaching certificate at Yale and why the cohort model is an important element of the program. They deconstruct traditional ideas of interpersonal influence, putting them back together as an inside-out process where changing our relationships requires us to first renegotiate our relationship with ourselves. Ultimately, Heidi and Zoe invite you to take a coaching stance to stretch beyond your comfort zone and expand your capacity to thrive. Connect with Zoe Chance at zoechance.com and check out her book. Learn more about the Yale SOM Certificate in Professional Coaching. New! Turn a challenge you are facing into a "Learning through experience" moment with Heidi Brooks. Leave a voice note and we may bring your voice to the show. Learn more and consider recording a voice note here. Note: 00:00 - Introduction Heidi opens the show with a short vignette into her day of teaching and invites you to shift the energy with her in real time. 03:20 - Knowing Isn't Enough Zoe shares the vulnerable, embarrassing story of her time with a Mayan shaman in the rainforest. Heidi and Zoe explore the deep friction between having conceptual information and the visceral, embodied reality of an experience. 08:00 - The Trojan Horse of Influence Heidi and Zoe wrestle with traditional, transactional ideas of influence and how Zoe's course often acts as a Trojan horse for personal transformation. The conversation highlights the inside-out approach of becoming someone others naturally want to say yes to. 13:20 - Co-Creating a New Experience: Coaching at Yale The hosts dream in public about their upcoming certificate for professional coaching and the intentional design of a cohort-based experience. They look at how learning to coach in a group setting acts as a micro-society for humanizing the workplace. 18:20 - The Messy Work of Being Coachable Heidi shares a grainy moment from her early days coaching "perfect" executives to surface an inconvenient tension: being coachable requires a person to be influenceable. They invite the audience to ask if they are willing to stretch beyond the safety of their expertise. 25:20 - System 1 "Soup" and The Logic of Commitment The two dive into the intuitive, habitual "emotional soup" of System 1, which Zoe names as the hidden engine of human behavior. Heidi introduces Jim March's framework to ask how leaders can anchor their work in the enlivening "logic of commitment" rather than the transactional "logic of consequence". 36:20 - The Ultimate Challenge: Influencing the Self The conversation lands on the profound realization that the hardest person in the world to influence is the self. Heidi and Zoe explore how adopting a coaching stance helps individuals renegotiate their relationship with themselves and expand their capacity to thrive. 42:20 - A Genuine Invitation The episode concludes with an invitation to the listener to pay attention to their own possible transformations. Heidi shares a new way for the audience to leave a voice note via SpeakPipe so the community can co-create this learning experience together.
Transcribe →The Beautiful Problem with Gianpiero Petriglieri
Feb 500:44:03Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Heidi Brooks and Gianpiero Petriglieri invite you to step out of the mechanical pursuit of efficiency and into the "beautiful problem" of being human in a professional world. Through their conversation, Heidi and GP take you on a journey to reframe your everyday experiences as moments of learning, curiosity, and choice. They guide you through the essential tension between convergence, the practice of meeting a standard, and divergence, the freedom to ask "what else?" as you build a more spacious relationship with your experiences. They deconstruct and put back together the tensions between our goals of work and life. Ultimately, Heidi challenges you to reclaim your agency through what GP calls "The Work": the intentional use of your attention and relationships with others to resist seductive shortcuts (including AI) that undermine the learning lab that is your life. Connect with Gianpiero Petriglieri's work at gpetriglieri.com. Notes [00:00] — Finding Agency in the Mystery of Life In this opening segment, Heidi Brooks invites you to view your life not just as something to survive, but as an adventure in learning through experience. [02:15] — From Childhood Curiosity to Professional Pursuit You will hear Gianpiero Petriglieri (GP) reflect on his upbringing as an only child in Southern Italy, a background that forced him to "decode" the mystery of adults and navigate enmeshed family boundaries. He shares his five-year transition from psychiatry to management education, during which he immersed himself in intense experiential social systems. This journey allowed him to turn what was once a personal struggle with group dynamics into a professional blessing that both soothes him and makes him useful to others. [05:45] — Sensitivity as Your Greatest Professional Asset GP challenges the common idea that being sensitive is a liability in a professional setting. He explains that in today's overstimulating and anxiety-provoking work environments, sensitivity is a sociological skill that helps you parse what belongs to you versus what is happening in the system. By establishing boundaries—which GP describes as a "skin" rather than a wall—you gain the ability to "touch" and engage with others without feeling burdened by the interaction. [11:00] — Moving Beyond the Logic of Tools and Efficiency The conversation shifts to why many people find experiential learning "mysterious" compared to the instrumental logic of getting from point A to point B. You will learn that the goal here is not just to acquire tools, but to build "spacious selves" with wider emotional registers. This humanizing approach creates a space where you can think more thoughts, speak more freely, and feel more deeply in the presence of others, rather than acting like a mechanical bioengineering machine. [16:45] — The Two Paths of Learning: Convergence and Divergence GP explains that learning is not a single process; it involves both convergence (deliberate practice to meet a standard) anda divergence (exploring "what else" and "what next"). You might find yourself seeking education because you need instruction and feedback to reach a goal, or because you are in an exploratory phase questioning your own motives. This segment ends with an intentional pause and call to reflection from Heidi Brooks. [24:00] — Doing "The Work" (Big W and Small W) In one of the most profound parts of the episode, GP defines "The Work" as the effort to develop integrated selves within democratic institutions. On a micro level, this means reclaiming your attention and conversation—the two fundamental capacities of leadership. Because attention is the beginning of strategy and conversation is the beginning of culture, choosing where you focus and what you talk about is your most powerful tool for reclaiming freedom from systems that try to control you. [29:30] — Reclaiming Humanity in the Age of AI You will hear a cautionary take on AI, which GP describes as a "seductive psychopath" that promises to relieve you of the "work" of thinking and relating. He argues that automating micro-interactions, like writing an email, strips away layers of your humanity. The challenge for you in a technological world is the "old problem": how to hold onto your own mind and maintain real connections despite the temptation to be relieved of the effort. [34:45] — Turning Sorrow into Connection As the episode concludes, GP identifies three modern sorrows: distraction, distress, and disconnection. He suggests that the reason you seek learning is to find their inverses: direction, hope, and connection. The final "beautiful problem" of being alive is the tension between wanting to be guided and wanting to discover for yourself—a paradox that Heidi Brooks encourages you to embrace as an ongoing journey rather than a task to be mastered.
Transcribe →Co-Creating the Conditions for Learning
Jun 601:00:29Tap to summarizeIn this season finale, we do something a little different. Instead of featuring an outside guest, we bring you behind the scenes—with the voices and minds who help design and deliver the very work this podcast explores. Dr. Heidi Brooks is joined by her colleagues David Tate and Stacey Casamassima for a candid, deeply human conversation that essentially doubles as a real team meeting. This is the team that teaches and leads "Everyday Leadership" at Yale and facilitates high-touch programs like Interpersonal and Group Dynamics, Holding Space, and more. And this time, they're turning the mic inward. Together, they reflect on the life experiences that drew them to this work, the evolution of their own learning journeys, and the frameworks and practices they use to create conditions for meaningful growth—within themselves, their students and each other. They discuss what it means to "stay" in difficult moments, how trust and ambiguity support learning, and why the ability to be present—with curiosity and care—is at the heart of human development. If you've ever wondered how transformational learning environments are built, or who's behind the scenes making them possible, this conversation is for you. Listen in as we lift the veil, share the practice, and reflect on what it really takes to co-create the conditions for learning—with integrity, intention and hope. Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. Watch this episode on YouTube. Show Notes & Key Moments 00:06 – Opening the Circle: Why This Episode, Why This TeamDr. Heidi Brooks frames the episode as a rare look behind the scenes of the work and the people who create the conditions for learning. 03:02 – Disillusionment, Discovery and Stacey's Path to the Work"My graduate degree rescued me from the cynicism I found in the working world... It shaped fundamentally how I move through the world." 06:50 – The Early Seeds of David's WorkDavid Tate traces his call to group work back to junior high: "I wasn't doing much—just listening. But that act of holding space was more powerful than I realized." 16:46 – Doing Nothing—or Everything? Heidi's Story of Early Impact"They asked me to stop bringing research and just ask questions. I thought I was doing nothing—but something powerful was happening in that space." 28:06 – What Creates the Conditions for Learning?Stacey and David explore the inner and outer structures that make learning possible—from psychological safety to intentional ambiguity and trust. 40:19 – Against Individualism: Learning as a Shared, Social Experience"Can we meditate out loud—together?" Stacey reframes learning as a relational practice that counters dominant culture's emphasis on the individual. 46:32 – Stay or Cancel? Trust, Reaction, and the Practice of Presence"Stay is not the same as tolerate." The team discusses cancel culture, self-protection, and the challenge of staying present through discomfort and difference. 53:10 – The Power of Discussability and Repair"Not only are we noticing, but we're going to talk about it—and recover." Stacey reflects on what makes it possible to risk and trust in community. 57:01 – Hope for Humanity: What This Work Makes Possible"Our students go out and ripple this work into the world. That gives me hope." David and Stacey share final reflections on why this work matters. Resources: Yale Courses in Organizational Behavior: https://faculty.som.yale.edu/heidibrooks/courses/ David C. Tate: https://som.yale.edu/faculty-research/faculty-directory/david-c-tate
Transcribe →Invisible No More: Art as a Tool for Agency
May 23, 202500:37:34Tap to summarizeWhat does it mean to create something that didn't exist before—and to do so with a sense of possibility, even in the face of constraint? In this episode, artist Mario Moore joins Dr. Heidi Brooks to reflect on art as agency, the power of process, and the untold stories behind his Yale-commissioned painting Black Governors. Together, they explore the tension between presence and invisibility, and what it means to embed stories within stories—without always offering a central gaze or a single interpretation. This is a conversation about creativity as resistance, about learning through making, and about honoring what came before—while imagining what's still possible. Whether you're an artist, educator, student, or leader, Mario Moore's perspective offers a powerful lens on agency in the face of constraint—and how storytelling, through image or action, can challenge assumptions, spark dialogue, and expand what feels possible. If you've ever wondered how art intersects with justice or how process itself can be a form of wisdom, this episode is for you. "Paintings tend to grow—and you need to follow along and let it do its thing." — Mario Moore Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. Watch this episode on YouTube. Show Notes & Key Moments 03:00 – Art, Activism and Early ImmersionHis mom was an artist; his grandmother, an activist. That legacy shaped Mario's worldview—and his work. "We'd go from studios to marches. I didn't separate creativity from protest." 06:30 – Detroit, Imagination and Possibility in the Face of ScarcityThe collapse of the city where he was born and raised helped Mario Moore ask what might be rebuilt. "If everything's been taken away—why not imagine something new?" 11:30 – From Hollywood Backdrops to His Own VisionAfter working as a set sculptor on major films, Mario Moore realized he needed to reclaim time and space for his own creative voice. "I was building other people's stories. But I had something to say." 20:50 – The Process: Sketches, Research and Listening to the WorkMario doesn't just paint—he excavates. Through sketches, archival research and revision, he lets each piece grow into what it needs to be. "I never want to force a painting into a plan. I follow where it leads." 24:30 – Finding the Black Governors: History Hidden in Plain SightThe title "Black Governors" is significant to Connecticut, referencing the way enslaved and free African Americans would elect leaders to mediate the community's needs to power structure. "This history wasn't in textbooks. But it shaped everything." 26:00 – The Layers of Black GovernorsMario Moore walks us through the visual and historical components of the painting. "Every corner of this painting has a story—and most have been forgotten." 35:20 – Why the Top Hat MattersA nod to period fashion? Sure. A playful defiance of expectations? Absolutely. "Fun is part of the work. That's how I keep creating." 37:10 – Composition, Centering and the Power of Visual FramingMario explains why placement matters—from the buttons on a coat to who gets to face the viewer. "This figure doesn't face you on purpose. It's not about one man—it's about many." 39:00 – Final Reflections: Legacy, Leadership, and What EnduresFor Mario Moore, art is both an offering and an invitation. For Heidi, the piece is now part of her everyday experience—and a prompt for future leaders. "This painting lives here now. And it's asking all of us to see differently." Resources Mario Moore's website: https://www.mariomoorestudio.com/
Transcribe →Facing Uncertainty as a Practice: Freedom, Presence and the Patterns We Inherit
May 9, 202500:50:03Tap to summarizeIn a time marked by anxiety, division and disconnection, the path forward lies not in fixing the past but in expanding our freedom to imagine what's next. In this episode of Learning Through Experience, Dr. Heidi Brooks is joined by Suzi Tucker, a writer, teacher and pioneer of Family Constellations work. Together, they explore how our personal and ancestral stories shape the patterns we repeat—and how stepping into those patterns with curiosity can help us reorient toward hope. With warmth, wisdom and respect for the unknown, Suzi shares how facing uncertainty isn't about certainty at all—it's about accompaniment. It's about standing on the shoulders of those who came before us and choosing, even in fear, to take one generative step toward something more. Through stories of lineage, loss, and liberation, Heidi and Suzi offer listeners an invitation to slow down, pay attention and let learning emerge. "When I plant a seed, that's really all I have to do. I don't know what's going to come. That one generative step is enough." —Suzi Tucker Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. Watch this episode on YouTube. Show Notes & Key Moments 03:00 – A Brother Remembered, a Path Revealed Suzi recalls how the absence of her institutionalized brother shaped her and how an encounter with Bert Hellinger—founder of Family Constellations—marked a turning point. "I decided I had a freedom my mother didn't have, and I used it. I went to meet my brother—not for him to know me, but for me to know him." 10:16 – The Work of Freedom vs. HealingSuzi explains that her work isn't about fixing the past—it's about freeing people to move forward. "Healing is personal and beautiful, but not necessarily connected to something in the future. Freedom is." 13:36 – Patterns, Habit and the Energy of StucknessHeidi and Suzi discuss how we get trapped in cycles inherited from our family systems—and how awareness opens space for choice. "Those places where I've done the same thing over and over again—and then I defend it, and get angry at the defense—that's when spirit gets siphoned off." 18:00 – Group Work, Lineage and AccompanimentSuzi reflects on what emerges in her constellation workshops—and why showing up in community can be a pathway to hope. "When I look at a group of 40, I see 4 million. I'm working not just with people, but with the lineages sitting beside them." 24:45 – Facing Uncertainty with Ancestral SupportSuzi names the emotional reality of living in uncertain times and how drawing from lineage can be a grounding force. "I call it the lethargy of despair. But then I feel my predecessors stepping in and saying, we've seen this before." 27:29 – Writing as a Practice of PossibilityFor Suzi, writing becomes a tool to move beyond fear and uncertainty. "I'm writing my path beyond the threshold of fear." 43:23 – Constellations and a Shift in PerspectiveConstellations offer a way to step outside the chaos and view one's story with new eyes. Heidi and Suzi discuss why representing others in a group can be transformative. "It's not about understanding the system, but knowing there is a system—and it looks different depending on where you stand." 48:22 – Generative Endings and Ongoing UnfoldingSuzi explains that constellations don't end with solutions, but with new images that change the structure of how people move through life. "I picture my parents behind me, my brother beside me, and I walk forward. And I imagine them saying, We're so glad they didn't stay trapped in our fear." 53:55 – Something to Sit WithHeidi closes by highlighting the invitation at the heart of this episode: not to solve uncertainty, but to meet it. "Fear is familiar. Possibility is harder to trust—but it's there. And we can take one generative step toward it." Resources Suzi Tucker's website: Explore Suzi Tucker's website to learn about her upcoming retreats, workshops, and sign up for her newsletter. 'Til Soon: Paradigm-shifting life prompts through the unique lens of Systemic Constellations, by Suzi Tucker. Acknowledging What Is: Conversations With Bert Hellinger: In this thought-provoking series of dialogues, Bert Hellinger—the originator of the Family Constellation method—offers profound insights into the unseen dynamics that shape family systems. Through real-life examples and practical reflections, he explores how acknowledging hidden entanglements can unlock the path to personal and generational healing. Holding Love: A Teaching Seminar on Love's Hidden Symmetry: Drawn from a live seminar in San Francisco in 1999, this comprehensive three-part resource offers an in-depth look at applying Family Constellations in therapeutic settings. Hellinger guides viewers through the subtle patterns influencing love and relationships, illustrating how the method can reveal underlying forces at play in couples and family work.
Transcribe →America Unfiltered: Can Empathy Bridge Our Greatest Divides?
Apr 25, 202500:47:10Tap to summarizeHow can storytelling deepen our understanding of emotional connection in turbulent times? Join Heidi Brooks for a powerful and special episode of Learning Through Experience featuring returning guest Marc Brackett, along with filmmakers Horacio Marquínez and Kirill Myltsev. Together, they explore the extraordinary journey behind their documentary, America Unfiltered: Portraits and Voices of a Nation, a film born out of curiosity, human connection and the transformative power of experience. Listen (and watch!) as they share deeply moving stories, from unexpected moments of vulnerability to profound encounters that challenge assumptions about identity, belonging, and resilience. This conversation beautifully demonstrates how art and genuine interpersonal connection serve as tools for learning, understanding and bridging divides. Don't miss this inspiring dialogue that invites us all to witness the intimate storytelling behind America Unfiltered and to see each other—and ourselves—with greater empathy, curiosity and compassion. Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. Watch this episode on YouTube. Show Notes & Key Moments 00:00 – Opening ReflectionDr. Heidi Brooks sets the stage by sharing how art and interpersonal dynamics help us learn deeply through experience. "Art opens us up and helps us see the world through a more expansive lens… interpersonal dynamics between us are eternally fascinating." 03:40 – Driven by Curiosity and Need for ConnectionHoracio Marquinez shares the deep personal calling that led him to start this ambitious project during the isolation of the pandemic. "This film was driven by our heart and by our guts…I needed to see what other people were experiencing." 05:16 – An Immigrant's Lens: America Through Fresh EyesKirill Myltsev shares how being new to America heightened his curiosity and compelled him to explore its complexities firsthand."You think you know the U.S., but then realize you're in a bubble. The pandemic made me curious." 14:04 – Moments of Unexpected VulnerabilityThe filmmakers recall a transformative encounter with a gun shop owner in Arizona, whose emotional openness set the film's tone. "Within 15 minutes, Chris broke into tears. It solidified that this project was bigger than us." 16:36 – America's Emotional UnderbellyHoracio describes the raw emotional openness of the people they met. "We weren't fishing for tears—they just came. Tears, laughter, stories about love." 23:25 – Shattering Stereotypes, One Story at a TimeMarc Brackett emphasizes how the film breaks down stereotypes and assumptions, inviting viewers to pause and reconsider what they think they know. "All people aren't the same. The film makes you question your assumptions." 30:00 – A Powerful Partnership: Creative Tension as a CatalystHeidi highlights the unique partnership and chemistry between Horacio and Kirill that became integral to the film's story. "Transparency actually brings us closer. Their relationship became its own story." 43:22 – Portraits of AuthenticityHoracio describes the intentionality behind his powerful portraits. "I wanted people to present themselves as they wanted me to see them." Resources Watch America Unfiltered on Kanopy, Amazon Prime Video and Tubi beginning April 25 Experience more than 100 powerful portraits captured by Horacio Marquínez during their journey in the book America Unfiltered: Portraits and Voices of a Nation Deepen your emotional intelligence with Marc Brackett and (re)watch/listen to his first Learning Through Experience episode: Emotional Wisdom and the Permission to Feel
Transcribe →Joy is an Inside Job: Art, Gratitude and Cultivating Resilience
Apr 18, 202500:41:30Tap to summarizeWhat does it take to cultivate joy—not as a fleeting feeling, but as a steady presence—even in times of deep uncertainty? In this luminous conversation, Dr. Heidi Brooks is joined by psychologist and author Emma Seppälä and artist Clara Nartey to explore the resilient, regenerative power of joy. With insights drawn from neuroscience, personal experience and artistic practice, Emma and Clara reflect on how inner sovereignty—the ability to return to center amid chaos—can help us meet the world with greater creativity, calm, and connection. From Clara's practice of beginning each day in prayerful gratitude to Emma's decades of meditation and breathwork, Heidi and her guests share how joy can be cultivated as a discipline of attention and care, and reflect on joy as an "inside job"—one that begins with how we treat ourselves and ripples outward in our relationships, our work and our communities. Together, they invite us to consider: What might it look like to build a "circle of delight" around ourselves and others—a nest of safety, authenticity and beauty? This episode is for anyone seeking a more rooted, soulfully sustainable way to face uncertainty—and to offer something healing to the world in return. Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. Watch this video on YouTube. Resources Read "Sovereign: Reclaim Your Freedom, Energy, and Power in a Time of Distraction, Uncertainty, and Chaos" by Emma Seppälä See Clara Nartey's artwork, including her "Joy of Living" installation at Yale School of Management's Evans Hall Follow Emma's Psychology Today blog series, "Feeling It" Listen to Clara's first Learning Through Experience conversation with Dr. Heidi Brooks: "The Power of Art to Cultivate Joy" Show Notes & Key Moments 00:00 – Welcome Back to JoyHeidi sets the stage for a conversation about joy as a practice of resilience during uncertain times–and a shared realization that joy often appears where you least expect it. 02:14 – Boarding School, Pandemic, and the Birth of JoyClara shares how hardship shaped her commitment to joy: "You either succumb to the situation—or find a way out using joy." 03:42 – Inner Wealth, Outer PovertyEmma reflects on cultures where joy thrives in the absence of material wealth: "You can't put the human spirit down." 08:45 – Training the Mind for TurbulenceEmma offers practices like breathwork and meditation as tools to cultivate resilience and unlock creativity: "The quality of your life depends on the state of your mind." 14:35 – Art as Emotional TranslationClara describes how her joy—or pain—flows directly into her textile work, regardless of what's visible on the surface. Both Clara and Emma speak to the mystery of creativity: "It's like the work is asking to be made—and I'm just the channel." 23:19 – The Trouble With Toxic PositivityThey explore the power of authenticity over forced optimism: "Sometimes the most uplifting thing is just being present through the hard stuff." 33:37 – What Is Sovereignty?Emma defines it as reclaiming our inner space from inherited self-criticism: "You can't unsee what you've seen." 37:23 – Joy Begins With You Clara reminds us: "You can't give joy to others from a place of emptiness." And something to sit with: Something to sit with: "Gratitude will float you through the rushing waters."
Transcribe →What Might Be: Navigating Paradox in Creating Microspaces of Justice
Mar 28, 202500:43:04Tap to summarizeWhat if the institutions we rely on—our workplaces, schools, and legal systems—aren't built for full participation? And what if real change starts not from the top, but in small, intentional spaces we create ourselves? In this episode Heidi Brooks and legal scholar and change-maker Susan Sturm explore the paradoxes of institutional transformation, and how facing uncertainty–rather than seeking to eliminate it–can create new possibilities for participation, collaboration and justice. Drawing from her new book, What Might Be: How Universities and Other Institutions Can Change, Susan shares how we can confront the tensions within our systems—between power and powerlessness, justice and exclusion, certainty and humility—without rushing to resolve them. Through personal stories and deep insights, she introduces the concept of micro spaces of justice—small but intentional environments where people model the institutional change they wish to see. These spaces, she argues, offer a path forward amid today's polarization and institutional inertia. This episode invites listeners to rethink their role in shaping institutions, reimagining power, and embracing paradox as a source of transformation. Listen now and join the conversation on what might be possible. Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the monthly LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about episode topics and questions to ponder. Watch this episode on YouTube. Resources 📘 Susan Sturm's book: What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions(Princeton University Press, 2025). Explore Susan's vision for full participation and the paradoxes at the heart of institutional change. 🎭 Theater of Change at Columbia Law SchoolBased on a methodology developed by Susan Sturm, Theater of Change is a collaboration between the Broadway Advocacy Coalition and Columbia Law School, bringing together law students, artists, and directly impacted individuals to co-create justice through performance and policy. 📝 Essay: "Paradoxical Possibility: Embracing Anti-Racism Contradictions" A compelling companion essay to What Might Be, Susan Sturm offers further insight into navigating paradox in the pursuit of justice. Show Notes & Key Moments 2:15 – Holding Contradictions: Beauty, Tragedy and Institutional Change A photograph of 9/11 memorial candles sparks a key theme: learning to sit with paradox. "I find myself in spaces of contradiction all the time. The challenge is learning how to be in both places at once." 3:24 – Three Defining ExperiencesSusan shares what led her to this work: a complex family upbringing, navigating power and powerlessness in the legal system, and a transformational collaboration with Lani Guinier. 6:13 – Why Institutions Struggle with Full ParticipationNo institution gets it right—but that doesn't mean change isn't possible. "The work is in moving closer, not waiting for perfection." 9:01 – The Role of Everyday LeadershipReal change isn't just top-down. Susan challenges listeners: What's your role in making your workplace or community more participatory? 14:57 – Micro Spaces of Justice: Change Starts SmallInspired by Adrienne Maree Brown's idea of fractals, these intentional spaces allow us to practice the world we want to see. "They show us what's possible—even before the larger institution is ready." 14:41 – Why Change Requires Practice–and Why Lawyers Struggle with this WorkTransformation isn't a quick fix. "It takes practice, patience, and a willingness to fail forward."Legal training reinforces certainty and authority—often at the cost of flexibility and relational intelligence. "The best lawyers, and the best leaders, learn to hold complexity." 27:23 – The Power of Paradox: Making Sense of the Messy Middle Creating just institutions means navigating tensions that don't have easy answers. Susan explores three key paradoxes—about power, identity, and the institutions themselves—that must be understood to drive meaningful change. 34:44 – What Can We Do? Moving from Awareness to Action Understanding these paradoxes is one thing—acting on them is another. Susan and Heidi explore concrete ways to make change, from shifting mindsets to building micro spaces of justice. 39:21 – Vulnerability as LeadershipReal growth begins when we stop fearing mistakes. "Transformation happens when people are allowed to fail safely." 41:45 – Learning in PublicHeidi shares how she's experimenting with vulnerability and growth in her own teaching spaces. "There's so much here between us. We're walking the path in real time."
Transcribe →The Growth Curriculum: How Everyday Struggles Shape Us
Mar 14, 202500:45:23Tap to summarizeWhat if the challenges you're facing aren't obstacles—but invitations to grow? In this episode, Heidi Brooks and leadership expert Jennifer Garvey Berger explore how we grow through uncertainty, not just survive it. They also discuss why change is essential for leaders, how to turn everyday challenges into opportunities for growth and why embracing imperfection might be the key to thriving in an anxious world. Sharing insights from her book Changing on the Job, Jennifer talks about the power of character development, the conditions that make learning possible and the small but profound shifts that help us navigate complexity. She and Heidi unpack a paradox of leadership today—where we admire vulnerability in others but still strive for perfection ourselves. Together, they ask: What if the difficulties we encounter are actually the curriculum for our growth? Whether you're a leader facing high-stakes decisions or simply looking to approach change with more courage and curiosity, this conversation will challenge the way you think about learning, leading and transformation. Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about the episode topics and takeaways. Watch this episode on YouTube. Show Notes & Key Moments 2:40 – From Teaching English to Coaching LeadersJennifer shares how her early love of storytelling and character development led her to leadership coaching: "I've always been fascinated by how people grow and change. Now, instead of just reading stories, I get to help co-author them in real time." 5:00 – When Change Becomes UnavoidableThe most meaningful transformations happen when people recognize that their old ways of thinking no longer serve them: "My favorite experiences are when people say, 'Hey, me—I need to be different.'" 11:30 – Work as a School for AdulthoodJennifer challenges the assumption that personal growth stops after childhood: "We hit 20, and suddenly there's no more context for growth. But workplaces should be the schools of adulthood." 22:00 – The Conditions That Make Learning PossibleInstead of resisting difficulties, what if we saw them as part of our learning curriculum? Growth requires both challenge and support: "Organizations know how to push people, but they often forget to create the scaffolding that helps people rise to the challenge." 35:00 – Noticing the Invisible Forces That Shape UsThe first step in transformation isn't action—it's awareness: "Can I begin to notice more? The assumptions I carry? The way I react? The invisible currents shaping me?" 39:00 – Experimenting with New Ways of BeingJennifer encourages small, intentional experiments in daily leadership: "Could this meeting be a learning event? Could I approach this conversation differently?" 42:00 – The Surprising Lesson of AI & Human ConnectionHeidi and Jennifer discuss why some people find AI more "empathetic" than humans—and what that tells us about the way we show up for each other. 45:00 – The Lifelong Practice of Growth Something to sit with: "Getting behind our growth can be painful, but it's also the greatest relief."
Transcribe →Art as Experience: How Aesthetic Experience Fuels Creativity, Collaboration, and Wellbeing
Feb 28, 202500:48:09Tap to summarizeCreative expression is essential for everyone—to think differently, connect deeply and thrive through uncertainty. In the Season 4 premiere of Learning Through Experience, Heidi Brooks welcomes Ivy Ross and Susan Magsamen, co-authors of Your Brain on Art, for a thought-provoking conversation about how engaging with art can help shape the way we learn, collaborate and navigate life's complexities. Ivy and Susan share their personal journeys into the worlds of art and neuroscience, revealing how aesthetic experiences, whether through music, visual art or movement, can rewire the brain, strengthen emotional wellbeing and foster connection. They explore the science behind neuroplasticity and the role of sensory engagement in daily life. This episode is an invitation to reimagine learning and leadership, inspiring listeners to embrace art—not just as a form of expression but as a tool for building resilience, expanding perspective and finding wonder in the everyday. Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. For deeper insights and reflections about each episode, subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. Watch this episode on YouTube. Show Notes & Key Moments 00:00 | Welcome to Season 4: How Art Helps Us Face UncertaintyHeidi Brooks introduces the season's theme of "facing uncertainty" and why experiences with art are essential in uncertain times. Ivy and Susan reflect on the growing impact of Your Brain on Art and the movement it has sparked. 01:54 | The Unexpected Paths to Creative ExpressionSusan shares how her twin sister's health journey inspired faith in art's healing powerand sparked her lifelong interest in art and neuroscience. Ivy recalls how growing up in a maker's home led her to a career at the intersection of creativity, business and human potential. 08:41 | Why Experiencing Art Matters—-Even If You're Not an ArtistSimply listening to music, viewing a painting or standing in awe of architecture can spark emotional and neurological shifts that help us feel more connected, grounded and resilient. Heidi shares her experience bringing art into leadership education at Yale. 12:22 | Unlocking Your Brain Through Sensory Experiences Susan explains how sensory experiences activate neural pathways that support memory, learning and improved mental health. The arts, she argues, are essential for cognitive and emotional well-being. 19:09 | Relearning How to Feel, Not Just ThinkIvy challenges the common belief that learning happens only through thinking, emphasizing that we are feeling beings first. They discuss why the arts should be central—not optional—in education. 30:02 | Can Art Make Us Better Collaborators? Yes.Ivy shares how incorporating art and creative exercises helped her build high-performing teams at Mattel and Google. The secret? Trust, play and shared sensory experiences. 35:56 | The Science of Group Flow: Why Shared Experiences MatterSusan and Ivy explore how teams can synchronize at a deep level. Ivy describes her experiment using sound frequencies to enhance brainstorming sessions. 43:30 | From Coping to Thriving: The Keys to FlourishingSusan breaks down what it takes to truly thrive—curiosity, awe, enriched environments and play—and how interfaces with art helps us build a capacity to thrive.. 46:52 | A Final Invitation to Notice MoreIvy offers a simple but profound takeaway: "Pay attention to what gets your attention." Noticing what moves you is the first step toward living a more enriched and connected life. Additional Resources Your Brain on Art website: https://www.yourbrainonart.com/ What is neuroarts? https://www.yourbrainonart.com/what-is-neuroarts Aesthetic Mindset Index https://www.yourbrainonart.com/aesthetic-mindset-index Blend of science and art improving neurological health: https://www.pbs.org/video/your-brain-on-art-1685477928/ How the Arts Can Benefit Your Mental Health: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/22/well/mind/art-mental-health.html How music and dance affect your brain and body: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/03/02/music-dance-painting-brain-mental-health/ 'Your Brain on Art' explore how even bad art makes for good health: https://datebook.sfchronicle.com/books/your-brain-on-art-health-benefits-17775845
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