Hollywood Swinging

Summary

Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli: "Hollywood Swinging" Episode Summary

Release Date: March 5, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Guests: Mark Seal, Nathan King, Al Ruddy, Mario Puzo, Janet Snow, Robert Evans, Talia Shire, James Caan, and more.

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1. Introduction

In the episode titled "Hollywood Swinging," hosts Mark Seal and Nathan King delve deep into the tumultuous journey of creating one of Hollywood's greatest masterpieces, "The Godfather." Drawing from Mark Seal's 2021 book Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, the episode unpacks the myriad challenges, personal anecdotes, and pivotal moments that shaped the making of the iconic film.

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2. The Genesis of an Idea

The story begins in [02:01] Spring 1964, when author Mario Puzo finds himself at the Plaza Hotel with a copy of his bestselling novel, contemplating its adaptation into a screenplay. Initially hesitant and skeptical about Hollywood's interest, Puzo's encounter with producer Al Ruddy serves as the catalyst that propels him into the film industry.

Quote:
“You have my word of honor, I'll never look at that book again.” – Mario Puzo ([02:01])

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3. Al Ruddy: The Unlikely Producer

Al Ruddy, a Canadian immigrant with a rugged past, emerges as the linchpin in bringing "The Godfather" to life. His unconventional path—from supervising construction in New Jersey to supervising Hollywood projects—highlights his innate ability to navigate and manage complex productions.

Key Points:

• Ruddy's early life and immigration story [04:52]
• His tenure at the Rand Corporation and subsequent move to Hollywood [05:28]
• The formation of his production style, focusing on budget-friendly filmmaking [16:56]

Quote:
“I just want to grow up to be you one day in mud boots 20 years from now, walking down another street in New Jersey.” – Al Ruddy ([06:12])

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4. The Formation of "Hogan's Heroes"

Before tackling "The Godfather," Ruddy's collaboration with actor Bernie Fine leads to the creation of the beloved TV series "Hogan's Heroes." This venture showcases Ruddy's knack for improvisation and ingenuity, traits that would later prove invaluable during the Godfather's production.

Notable Event:
The improvisational pitch meeting with William S. Paley at CBS, where Ruddy's impromptu performance wins over the network executive [11:20].

Quote:
“I may not be in this office all the time, 24 hours a day, but when something urgent comes through for me, cover for me.” – Al Ruddy ([06:45])

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5. Mario Puzo's Hollywood Adventures

Upon moving to Los Angeles, Mario Puzo navigates the glamorous yet daunting landscape of Hollywood. Accompanied by his assistant Janet Snow, Puzo immerses himself in the social fabric of the industry, attending high-profile gatherings and even encountering legends like Orson Welles.

Key Moments:

• Puzo's first impressions of Hollywood and his routine at the Beverly Hills Hotel [22:07]
• His budding relationship with Janet Snow, who becomes his confidante and aide [23:01]
• The infamous dinner at Chasens, where Puzo confronts Frank Sinatra over the portrayal of Johnny Fontaine [42:22]

Quote:
“I don't know what the heck I'm supposed to be doing in here.” – Mario Puzo ([28:15])

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6. The Chasens Incident: Puzo vs. Sinatra

One of the most gripping anecdotes detailed in this episode is Mario Puzo's confrontation with Frank Sinatra at Chasens. The depiction of the character Johnny Fontaine in "The Godfather" irked Sinatra, leading to a heated exchange that underscored the tensions between creative expression and real-life personas.

Detailed Account:

• [42:22] Janet Snow recounts the evening when Puzo approaches Sinatra, leading to an altercation.
• Puzo's realization of the difference between his literary creations and Hollywood's larger-than-life figures [44:24]

Quote:
“I didn't want to talk anymore... You met the best one saw in the movie this week.” – Al Ruddy ([19:01])

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7. Bringing Francis Ford Coppola into the Fold

With the screenplay taking shape, Paramount searches for a director who can authentically portray the Italian American ethos central to "The Godfather." Their quest leads them to Francis Ford Coppola, whose visionary approach ultimately cements the film's legendary status.

Highlights:

• The realization that previous gangster films lacked genuine Italian American representation [46:52]
• Coppola's selection as the director to infuse authenticity and depth into the narrative [46:52]

Quote:
“I want to create a movie that is so authentically Italian American that you can smell the spaghetti.” – Robert Evans ([46:52])

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8. The Dynamics Between Puzo, Ruddy, and Janet Snow

The collaborative synergy between Mario Puzo, Al Ruddy, and Janet Snow emerges as a cornerstone in the film's development. Their combined talents and willingness to adapt and overcome obstacles ensure the screenplay's progression despite numerous challenges.

Key Interactions:

• Puzo and Janet's initial struggles with screenwriting and assistance [28:27]
• Ruddy's strategic guidance in refining the screenplay [30:36]
• The balancing act of maintaining creative integrity while navigating Hollywood's demands [39:03]

Quote:
“We're not in Kansas anymore.” – Reflecting Puzo's realization of Hollywood's complex dynamics ([46:16])

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9. Overcoming Production Challenges

The episode sheds light on the external pressures that threatened the film's inception, including interference from studio executives and opposition from real-life mafia figures. These obstacles tested the resilience and determination of the core team, ultimately strengthening their commitment to the project.

Notable Challenges:

• Meddling studio executives seeking to alter the film's direction [General Discussion]
• Attempts by mafia members to derail the production through intimidation and sabotage [General Discussion]

Quote:
“He’s the guy to get things done.” – Referring to Al Ruddy's reputation ([04:30])

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10. Conclusion: The Making of a Masterpiece

"Hollywood Swinging" culminates in highlighting the intricate tapestry of relationships, creative processes, and sheer perseverance that led to the birth of "The Godfather." Through exclusive interviews and archival insights, listeners gain an intimate understanding of what it took to transform a bestselling novel into a cinematic legend.

Final Thoughts:

• The enduring legacy of "The Godfather" as a testament to collaborative brilliance [Conclusion of Episode]
• Reflections on the transformative impact of the film on Hollywood and American cinema [Conclusion of Episode]

Quote:
“The Godfather Chronicles”—a journey behind the scenes that reveals the heart and soul of a modern masterpiece. – Mark Seal ([03:48])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “You have my word of honor, I'll never look at that book again.” – Mario Puzo ([02:01])
• “I just want to grow up to be you one day in mud boots 20 years from now, walking down another street in New Jersey.” – Al Ruddy ([06:12])
• “I may not be in this office all the time, 24 hours a day, but when something urgent comes through for me, cover for me.” – Al Ruddy ([06:45])
• “I don't know what the heck I'm supposed to be doing in here.” – Mario Puzo ([28:15])
• “We're not in Kansas anymore.” – Reflecting Puzo's realization ([46:16])
• “He's the guy to get things done.” – Referring to Al Ruddy's reputation ([04:30])
• “The Godfather Chronicles”—a journey behind the scenes that reveals the heart and soul of a modern masterpiece. – Mark Seal ([03:48])

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Final Notes

"Hollywood Swinging" offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of the making of "The Godfather," presenting listeners with a nuanced perspective that goes beyond the silver screen. By intertwining personal stories, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and expert insights, the episode serves as an invaluable resource for both fans of the film and aficionados of Hollywood history.

For those interested in a deeper dive, Mark Seal's book "Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli" provides an extensive account of these events, enriched with additional interviews and archival material.

Transcript

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[Al Ruddy]

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[Podcast Host]

21 plus terms and conditions apply it's spring of 1964. Mario Puzo walks into the Plaza Hotel sweating in an overcoat with slick black hair and a copy of his best selling novel tucked under his arm. He's feeling skeptical. A producer from Paramount wants to turn his 448 page novel into a movie and they want him, a novelist who's never written a screenplay, to write the script. It's been a year since the Godfather came Out. Mario assumed Paramount wasn't interested in the option anymore. He wasn't sold either. For the first time in his life, Mario Puzo is not broke. Adapting his novel into a screenplay sounds like work. He sits down with a thin man named Al Ruddy and Ruddy's wife, Francoise. Ruddy cuts to the chase and tells him he's out on a limb for Mario. No one in Hollywood trusts authors to adapt their own books. He's worried Mario will be too precious with the novel. Mario is ready to walk away. It's just not worth it. Just then, Francoise opens her purse and pulls out a miniature poodle who lets out a little yip. Mario is enchanted. Suddenly, he wants the job. He throws his copy of the Godfather onto the carpeted floor and says to Ruddy, you have my word of honor, I'll never look at that book again. Ruddy extends his hand and says, mario, you just got the Marc. I'm Mark Seale.

[Mark Seal]

And I'm Nathan King.

[Podcast Host]

This is Leave the Gun, Take the cannoli.

[Mark Seal]

In this episode, we'll chronicle the rise of the Godfather stalwart producer Al Ruddy.

[Podcast Host]

And check in on our lovable author, Mario Puzo, and see how he's adjusting to his new life in Hollywood.

[Mark Seal]

So, Mark, if Mario Puzo was an unlikely screenwriter, then Al Ruddy was an even more unlikely producer.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, very much so. When Al Ruddy got the job to produce the Godfather, he was known as the guy to get things done. But his path to Hollywood was extremely roundabout.

[Mark Seal]

Yeah, like so many other characters in this story, Al Ruddy was an immigrant as well.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, he was from Canada, and he immigrated with his mom and two siblings when he was seven. And I was lucky enough to speak with him on the phone and in person a few times over the course of my reporting. And he told me many stories, including their immigration story.

[Al Ruddy]

When she came to the United States, my mother took three kids. She stuck over the border. She had it with my father, who was an alcoholic and abusive. She threw us in a car. We drove over the border one night. They ended up in New York, and that's where we settled. My mother told us, remember, she was afraid of being deported. They ask you where you were born, say you don't know.

[Mark Seal]

So what was Ruddy's upbringing like in New York?

[Podcast Host]

Well, he went to Brooklyn Technical High School and then worked his way through school at USC as an architecture major of all things.

[Mark Seal]

So very applicable to the movie business.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I don't think show business was even on his radar yet. But after College. He ended up in a job that would be surprisingly relevant to his later care. He moves back east and gets a job supervising construction crews on a housing development in New Jersey.

[Mark Seal]

That's a great connection. He's orchestrating all these huge groups of people and dealing with unions trying to stay on a budget. A housing development is pretty much like a movie.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, but not nearly as glamorous. Right.

[Mark Seal]

Did he know at this point he wanted to be a producer?

[Podcast Host]

I don't think so. At this point, Ruddy didn't know what he wanted, but he did know what he didn't want. He told me that when he went to quit, his boss tried to offer him more money, but he just wasn't having it.

[Al Ruddy]

I said, steve, you know, Ken, I'm not leaving because of the money. I just want to grow up to be you one day in mud boots 20 years from now, walking down another street in New Jersey.

[Mark Seal]

So he moves back to California and this is when he starts working at the Rand Corporation. It was a military think tank, which seems a little bit strange to me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, it is a bit strange. But being Al Ruddy, he promptly rose through the ranks, just as he did wherever you went. He got an assistant and started bailing on work so he could, as he put it, have his adventures in Hollywood.

[Al Ruddy]

I said, jack, I may not be in this office all the time, 24 hours a day, but when something urgent comes through for me, cover for me. He's right. Absolutely. Don't worry about it. Well, once Jack Cactus started doing it, I had time to roam around Hollywood.

[Mark Seal]

What kind of adventures are we talking?

[Podcast Host]

So at this point, he knew he wanted to work in show business, but he had no idea about how to break in. Naturally, he buys a Jaguar XK120 and starts roaming around town.

[Mark Seal]

Now he's sounding like a movie producer, but where did he expect just to drive a fancy car around town and someone would point him out and invite him to come work in the movies?

[Podcast Host]

Well, that's what almost happened, being Al Ruddy. One day on his way to work in his new Jaguar, something amazing happens.

[Al Ruddy]

I was driving to work one day and there was a big discount juice store. And as I stopped at the light, there's a spot in the window that said, hell, I want it, champ. I get a part time job there and pay my car off debt. I go in there and the guy sees me. I said, hey, I saw your sign on the window. I'd love to get a job here part time. I don't want any part time. Guys, now I need a full time guy. I said, listen, I could sell more fucking shoes for you part time than any guy you got selling shoes full time. Oh, really?

[Podcast Host]

And according to Ruddy, a woman walks in who needs some shoes and he sells her 14 pairs of shoes immediately. And of course, the owner of the shop says, you got the job part time.

[Mark Seal]

How's working in a shoe store going to get him a Hollywood producer job? That seems like a pretty big leap.

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's all about who you know, Nathan. And that store would prove to be the perfect place to meet people. One day, a friend of Al's, an agent named Elliot Kastner, comes into the store with his buddy Brian Hutton.

[Al Ruddy]

Elliot Kastner brings Brian Hutton to round to my shoe store on Saturday to meet me because he thinks I'll be a great producer and Brian will be a great director.

[Podcast Host]

Brian was an actor who had secured the rights to a hit Broadway play called the Connection, and he wanted to stage it in California. So Brian, Brian and Elliot convince Al that he should produce the play. And of course they needed help with financing. So Al says there's only one person he can think of who has any money. A young woman he went to school with who, as Al put it, had always had the hots for him. He convinced her to invest 15 grand in the production. And just like that, Al Ruddy is a producer.

[Mark Seal]

God, this guy can talk his way into anything.

[Podcast Host]

Nathan, you have no idea. So after that play, Al and Brian Hutton go on to produce a script for Marlon Brando's studio. And Universal puts it out. And then Al Ruddy meets an actor named Bernie Fine. And the two are commiserating about the business. And Al suggests they team up to write a half hour comedy pilot together.

[Al Ruddy]

I'm not a writer, Bernie. You don't have to know how to be a writer to do a half hour trip.

[Podcast Host]

The two decide to rent a crappy office for $50 a month. And these two guys who have never written anything in their lives sit down and write the pilot for get ready for this Hogan's Heroes.

[Mark Seal]

Oh, my God.

[Podcast Host]

You know, it's a familiar story. It happens over and over and over again. How many men and women are sitting in rooms in Hollywood trying to come up with something? And hear Al Ruddy and Bernie Fine, who have never written anything, start batting around ideas. What about this? What about that? And they come up with the idea of a prisoner of war camp. And finally, it was set in the US in the beginning. And that's when Bernie Fein took The trip on a plane, and he saw someone reading Von Ryan's Express, the book.

[Mark Seal]

About the German POW camp.

[Podcast Host]

Exactly. When he came back, they said, hey, what about setting it in a German prisoner of war camp during World War II? And bingo, that's it. The idea for Hogan's Heroes is born.

[Mark Seal]

I think what's funny about this story is that not only had they never written anything before, they didn't even have an idea. So they were manufacturing an idea out of thin air, and then they spun it into this script.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, they spun it into a script, and then they wanted to take it to an agent. And I think one of them knew a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend maybe, and he said, hey, I like this. I'll take you to cbs. Meet me there. And it turns out they're going to meet with William S. Paley, the head of cbs, who was in town from New York and had decided to take a meeting from them.

[Mark Seal]

So they end up not only getting a meeting, but getting a meeting with one of the biggest people in the business.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, as Al Ruddy told me, it's like meeting God. I mean, you know, here's William S. Paley, the head of the network. And so they go into the studio and there's Paley and his executive team. Paley says, I didn't call you here to tell you what a great script you'd written, but to admonish you because a Nazi prisoner of war camp is not funny.

[Mark Seal]

I mean, that's not really surprising.

[Podcast Host]

Not at all. But Al Ruddy doesn't care. And he proceeds to act out the entire pilot by himself, jumping up and down using a fake machine gun, the whole thing. And Bill Paley starts to laugh.

[Al Ruddy]

Paley starts to laugh. Obviously, the whole room starts to laugh. Right. He said, I don't think I could buy that show, but that's the funniest thing I've heard this year. I said, thank you, Mr. Bailey.

[Mark Seal]

And two weeks later, Ruddy gets the call that they've decided to do the show. So all of a sudden he's a wildly successful television writer, and what comes next?

[Podcast Host]

So he still wants to be a movie producer, and now he actually knows people in Hollywood and is considered to be some kind of a genius. He gets a meeting at Paramount and he sits down with our friends Robert Evans and Peter Bart.

[Mark Seal]

And what do they think of him?

[Podcast Host]

They love him. I think Evans related to him a bit.

[Mark Seal]

Well, they both had unlikely backstories.

[Podcast Host]

Evans came from the ladies pants business, and Ruddy worked in a shoe store.

[Al Ruddy]

Bob Evans told me. He said, you know what? Everyone laughed at me when I got this job, I was in the dress business. And no, because I didn't have any background. I think the same thing about you, Ruddy. I got a good feeling from you. You have no background, but I'm going to give you a shot.

[Mark Seal]

So they give him a job.

[Podcast Host]

Yep, and an office on the Paramount lot.

[Al Ruddy]

And so they gave me an office. So now I'm sitting on the lot like every other schmuck, right? Trying to figure what the to do.

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[Mark Seal]

So what does Ruddy do?

[Podcast Host]

Well, he produces a movie, a motorcycle movie called Little Faust and Big Halsey. It stars Robert Redford and it stays under budget and grosses $2 million, earning Ruddy a reputation as a producer who can get movies made on the cheap.

[Mark Seal]

I'm sure Evans loved that.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, of course. And it wasn't long before Evans and Peter Bart were considering Ruddy to produce the Godfather.

[Al Ruddy]

I get a call one time, do I want to produce the Godfather? I thought it was a joke. Well, yes, of course. My favorite book. I never read it. He's when he had to go to New York to meet Charlie Bludhorn, he has to approve the director and the producer.

[Podcast Host]

So he runs down, he said to Barnes and Noble, buys a copy of the book and reads it on the plane to meet Charlie Bludorn.

[Al Ruddy]

And then comes the man, Archer, Charlie Bludhorn. Hello, I'm Charlie Bludhorn. I'm Al Ruddy. The next line. The next line. Now forget, how was your flight? Are you okay? The next line was nothing. What do you want to do with this movie? I looked at him and I looked at the book and said, I want to do an ice blue terrified movie. The people you love.

[Mark Seal]

What did he mean by that, the people you love?

[Podcast Host]

Well, I think he was inferring that, you know, the movie was about organized crime figures and maybe figured Charlie had known one or two of them in his lifetime in business.

[Mark Seal]

Well, in any case, Charlie was thoroughly convinced and gave him the job.

[Podcast Host]

Charlie figured he was the right man for the job. And also, I believe Charlie knew that, you know, Ruddy could bring it in on a budget. And also, I think he respected Ruddy's toughness and honesty and directness.

[Mark Seal]

Isn't there a story about him putting his foot in his mouth on his way out the door?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So on his way out, Ruddy wants to make a clean escape after getting the job, you know, he says he wants to get in the elevator and get out of there.

[Al Ruddy]

And Charlie Blutak comes walking down the hallway with a guy in Tower, and he points to me. This man's a genius. He puts his arm around me now and wrestles me down the hallway.

[Podcast Host]

But before he does, he notices a poster of the adventurers, which was like the steamy thriller starring Candice Bergen.

[Al Ruddy]

I pressed the elevator. I just want to get out. I got the job. I didn't want to talk anymore. Right, Charlie? I like that poster, buddy. I said, charlie, I think the last thing you have to worry about is the poster. You met the best one saw in the movie this week. I said, I did, Charlie. And be very candid. I was the only guy I left in the theater after the intermission. You know, one thing, honey? I have personally got 20 minutes out of that movie just at the elevator door open as it. Charlie, cutting 20 minutes out of that movie is like dying of cancer and trimming your toenails. He looked at me. I swear to God, Mark. The door closed, and I was out.

[Podcast Host]

The elevator doors close. Boom. Al Ruddy makes it to the street. He still has the job.

[Mark Seal]

Wow, that's a lot different than today's Hollywood. People really didn't mince their words back then. Okay, so against all odds, Al Ruddy's the new producer of the Godfather.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. And his first task is to find a screenwriter, which leads him to the Plaza Hotel in New York to meet with our very own Mario Puzo.

[Mark Seal]

And Ruddy was the one pushing for Puzo to write the script.

[Podcast Host]

That's right.

[Mark Seal]

Okay, so Al Ruddy knew that you didn't necessarily need screenwriting Experience to be a screenwriter.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I guess Hogan's Heroes had taught him that. But Puzo, of course, made a very compelling argument when he threw his book on the floor at the Plaza Hotel.

[Al Ruddy]

He takes the book and he throws it on the floor. I don't ever have to look at this book again. I want to work on the screenplay with you.

[Podcast Host]

He offers him a salary, an office on the Paramount lot, and puts him up in the Beverly Hills Hotel.

[Mark Seal]

Well, that sounds like something Mario Puzo could get used to.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, but the first thing Al Ruddy had to do was convince the only person who had veto power over Puzo's life, his wife Erica.

[Mark Seal]

And how did that go?

[Podcast Host]

Well, at this point, Mario and his family are living on Long island and Mario has diabetes. His wife Erica is really worried about his diet and doesn't want him to eat himself to death in California. So Ruddy drives out there to talk to her.

[Al Ruddy]

I said, Ms. Apuza, I will pick Mario Puza up every morning and keep him with me all day, including dinner at night, until we do the screenplay.

[Mark Seal]

And that was that. She trusted him.

[Podcast Host]

That was that. Mario flew first class to Hollywood, where Al Ready was waiting to lead him into another world.

[Mark Seal]

And how was Puzo feeling? Was he excited, nervous?

[Podcast Host]

I think a little bit of both. I'll read you something he wrote years later. Apparently, this is what he was thinking while on the plane. To quote, the Godfather was their picture, not mine. I would be cool. I would never get my feelings hurt. I would never get proprietary or paranoid. I was an employee.

[Mark Seal]

He had no idea what he was getting into, did he?

[Podcast Host]

I don't think so.

[Mark Seal]

So he lands in Hollywood and then what? Straight to work?

[Podcast Host]

Well, straight to the Beverly Hills Hotel, the Pink palace itself.

[Mark Seal]

And it could be argued that between the pool and the Polo Lounge, the Beverly Hills Hotel is one of the most popular off campus places to conduct business in Hollywood.

[Podcast Host]

Yet they're both storied places. But of course, Mario Puzo found his real home. Not in his suite, which was pretty great, but on the tennis court.

[Mark Seal]

Mario was a big lover of tennis, wasn't he?

[Podcast Host]

Yes, he felt like that was his exercise. I don't know exactly how great of a tennis player was, but he loved the game and that's what he concentrated on as much as screenwriting when he was in Los Angeles.

[Mark Seal]

So Paramount puts him up at the Beverly Hills Hotel.

[Podcast Host]

They also gave him an office on the Paramount lot and hired him an assistant.

[Mark Seal]

The one and only Janet Snow, who you spoke to for the book and the Podcast.

[Janet Snow]

It's so nice to see you, Mark. I always enjoy talking about this. It was one of the most exciting times of my whole life.

[Mark Seal]

Mark, why don't we start with how Janet came to work for Mario? Because as much as this was a life changing time for Mario, it was also a life changing time for Janet.

[Podcast Host]

Of course. So Janet was a young woman living in Los Angeles, and like so many LA success stories, her story starts at a party.

[Janet Snow]

A dear friend of mine invited me to watch the Oscars at a friend of his home in Holmby Hills, which is our most exclusive area in Los Angeles.

[Podcast Host]

And who does she meet standing at the buffet but Gray Frederickson, the Godfather's.

[Mark Seal]

Newly minted associate producer.

[Podcast Host]

And Gray only has one qualification in mind for Mario's new assistant.

[Janet Snow]

And he said, by any chance, do you happen to play tennis? And I said, I do play tennis. And he said, oh my gosh. Well, I have just been hired to be the associate producer on the Godfather. And Mario Puzo, the writer, just came into town and we need to find an assistant for him. Would you be interested in coming to Paramount Pictures tomorrow and meeting Al Reddy, the producer, and Mario Puzo? And I said, sure, that would be wonderful. I'm just reading the book now. I love this book and I'd love to meet Mario.

[Mark Seal]

What are the chances?

[Podcast Host]

Well, Janet's luck is seemingly unending. They set the date for the meeting at 9:30 the next morning. Janet goes out to the famous nightclub called Pips with her friends and sort of forgets about the meeting.

[Janet Snow]

And the next morning I woke up, it was late, and I remembered the meeting with Gray. And I looked at my clock and I went, oh my God, it's 9:30. And I called him because I wasn't sure that he really meant it. And I called him and I said, gray, hi, this is Janet. And he said, where are you? The heads of the studio are here. Mario's here. Oh my God, you were supposed to be here at 9:30. And I said, oh my gosh, you're serious. I'll be there, I'll be there. I'll be right there.

[Podcast Host]

So she gets ready to go and remembers one thing. She doesn't have a car.

[Janet Snow]

So in desperation, out of desperation, I went upstairs and knocked on the door of the building's owner and I said, I have a very important job interview and I don't have a car. I don't have a way of getting there. And he said, not a problem, Come with me. I have a car that you can use. And we went down into this big subterranean parking facility garage. And he said, here, how about this one? He opens the door to a beautiful new white Lincoln Continental with red leather interior. And I just went, oh, my God, thank you so much.

[Podcast Host]

She drives to Paramount, parks her fancy borrowed car at the director's building, and walks into Al Ruddy's office.

[Janet Snow]

It was a huge office, and the shutters were closed and the lights were dim, and there were about six men in the room. And they all started shooting questions at me. And I was just kind of answering the questions just off the cuff. And all of a sudden I started to hear, oh, my God, she's perfect. And I went, oh, my God, I have to sit down.

[Mark Seal]

So just like that, she gets the job.

[Podcast Host]

Not before Mario Puzo does her the first of many favors.

[Janet Snow]

I saw this very heavy man sitting on a leather sofa with his feet up on the coffee table. And I went and sat down next to to him and already was sitting behind an enormous desk. And he was telling me about the project and telling me about the Godfather and that Mario Puzo had just arrived and that they needed an assistant for Mario and would I be interested? And I said, I would be very interested. And so all of a sudden, the heavyset man next to me started pushing on my leg and saying something, but I couldn't hear him. He was whispering. And then I finally just turned to him and said, what? And he said, the money. Ask about the money. And then already said, what seems to be the problem? And I looked toward Mario and I said, well, he said, the money.

[Mark Seal]

I feel like that's so indicative of the relationship that Mario and Janet had. He was looking out for her from the beginning.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, the two made quite a pair because in so many ways, they were both unqualified for the jobs they had. Mario had never written a screenplay, and Janet had never worked as an assistant. In fact, she couldn't even type.

[Mark Seal]

So what did they do all day?

[Podcast Host]

Well, Janet talks through the money with Al Ruddy, gets hired, and her and Mario go get settled in Mario's new office. But neither one of them has any idea of what to do.

[Janet Snow]

So Mario came out and he said, I don't know what the heck I'm supposed to be doing in here. And I said, well, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here either. And he said, well, I'm going to give you your first assignment. I want you to call me a cab and have it take me to my hotel.

[Podcast Host]

And so she says, I don't have to call you a cab. I have a car. And so she takes him down to the director's building lots and he sees all these wonderful cars there of the director's, Ferraris probably and Cadillacs and who knows what else. And sees a beat up old Volkswagen and he assumes that's Janet's car.

[Janet Snow]

And Mario, I noticed Mario's starting to try to open the door of the Volkswagen. I go, mario, what are you doing? And he said, well, isn't this your car? And I said, no, no, this is my car. And he looks at this white Lincoln Continental and I, we get in the car and we drive out of Paramount and I put the top down and we're driving along Melrose and he's got his arm out the window, holding a cigar, leaning on the door, and he just screams, wow. And then he looks down, he saw the phone and he said, what's that? And I said, well, God said telephone. And he said, who can you call on that phone? And I said, well, you can call anybody in the world on that phone. And he said, oh my God, get me already. I said, sure. And I called the mobile operator and got already picks up the phone and he just screams, wow.

[Mark Seal]

So Mario's got a suite at the Beverly Hills Hotel, an office and an assistant who can't type. What could possibly go wrong?

[Podcast Host]

Well, he's supposed to be writing the screenplay, but he's totally bewildered. He has no idea what to do. So Al Ruddy tells him to get every plot point typed out on an index card.

[Mark Seal]

But Janet can't type.

[Podcast Host]

No, she cannot. But the two of them figure a way around that.

[Janet Snow]

So Mario came into my office and he saw me struggling as much as he was struggling in his office. And he said, what are we doing? You're more valuable on the tennis court than you are at that typewriter. And I don't want to be sitting here on this beautiful day. So let's find a typing service and we can have them type the book on three by five cards and we can go up and play. Of which we did.

[Mark Seal]

They outsourced it?

[Podcast Host]

Yes. And Janet wanted to show the completed notes to Al Ruddy on Monday, but Mario taught her something about the fine art of procrastination.

[Janet Snow]

We went to the studio and I said, I'm going to take this box of 3 by 5 cards down to Al. And he said, don't be a dope, Janet. We can run this thing out. Nobody could type the book over the weekend on three by five cards. You have to hand in just a little bit each day. And I went, oh my gosh, Mario, thanks for guiding me. I just never would have thought of that.

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[Podcast Host]

Hi, this is Jevon, your blinds.com design consultant.

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[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Host]

Whatever you need. How about you tell me what you had in mind?

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[Mark Seal]

So he's found a way to put off writing this script. What's he doing in the meantime?

[Podcast Host]

Well, he's having a great time. He and Janet are playing tennis. He's going to restaurants. And of course, the social invitations start rolling in.

[Janet Snow]

The word got out that Mario was in Los Angeles, and the phone started ringing. There were lunch invitations, dinner invitations. He was very shy, and he liked me being there. And I enjoy being there because the people were fascinating, and it was fun.

[Mark Seal]

And a big feature of his time in Hollywood is that Puzo gets to meet some of his idols.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. And there's a story that I just love about one day in the Beverly Hills Hotel. His phone rings with yet another social invitation.

[Janet Snow]

I picked up the phone, and this incredible voice said, is Mario Puzo there? I said, who's calling? And he said, orson Welles. And I said, one moment, please. I went in the other room and I said, mario, somebody by the name of Orson Welles. And he goes, orson Welles? And I said, yes. And he went and picked up the phone, and he said, hello. And he started talking with them, and he said, oh, my goodness, I'd love to. Yes, absolutely. Of course. And then he hung the phone up, and he turned to me, and he goes, janet, that was Orson Welles, one of the most talented people ever. And he's taken a bungalow at the hotel, and he's invited us to come over. And so we get to this beautiful bungalow, and the door opens, and this room, very large man holding a cigar welcomes us. And we sat down, and Mario and Orson Welles started talking. And it was the most hypnotizing, brilliant, clever, creative Intelligent conversation I had ever heard and still maybe have ever heard.

[Mark Seal]

Supuzo's an unlikely sensation when he hits the ground in Hollywood. He's sort of a celebrity, at least by the standards of a popular writer.

[Podcast Host]

He was, you know, he's going to the studio, he's going to dinner and lunch with people he had never met before. And, of course, he's always going to Vegas to indulge in his passion for gambling.

[Mark Seal]

And Janet Snow was sort of his chaperone this whole time.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. And in Janet, he had someone who knew the town, who lived there. She grew up there, and so she knew Los Angeles. She was kind of the perfect assistant for him.

[Mark Seal]

Do you think Al Ruddy hired Janet because he got the sense that he wasn't going to be able to make good on his promise to Puzo's wife?

[Podcast Host]

I don't know about that, but there's a funny story Al Ruddy tells. You know, he's trying to watch Puzo's weight, and he's going to breakfast and lunch with them, he says, and he's eating, you know, boiled pears and poached eggs, and they're both having grapefruit and trying to lose weight. And while Ruddy, who's already thin, keeps losing weight, Mario kept gaining weight. And one night, he goes into this Los Angeles pizza parlor that he went to all the time, and the owner of the place says, man, that Mario Puzo's a great guy. And Ruddy says, what? How do you know Mario Puzo? And he goes, well, I bring him a pizza every night at the Beverly Hills Hotel.

[Mark Seal]

So he was ordering on the sly. It's incredible. So at this point, the script that Puzo is working on closely follows the Godfather book, right?

[Podcast Host]

Exactly. You can see early drafts of it in the archives at Dartmouth University.

[Mark Seal]

Do you think that the producers of the Godfather had any sense that Mario wasn't going to be the man to deliver the final screenplay of the Godfather?

[Podcast Host]

Well, I think probably so. Although early drafts of his screenplay were pretty well received by Peter Bart, he gave a lot of notes, which still exist. He said he was off to a good start. You know, he knew the material like nobody else did. He had written the Godfather, the novel, so he knew the story best. But he needed someone with some experience writing screenplays to help him. And they were looking for a director throughout this period. They just couldn't find anyone who wanted to do the movie, which was crazy enough in itself.

[Mark Seal]

So as he's approaching a completed first draft of his script, what does Puzo do.

[Podcast Host]

So Puzo is unleashed. You know, he's able to embark upon what he calls his Hollywood adventures, most notably a famous run in with Frank Sinatra at Chasens.

[Mark Seal]

This is the real life Johnny Fontaine, the womanizing singer who appeals to the Godfather for help at the beginning of the film.

[Podcast Host]

And, you know, Frank Sinatra was reportedly unhappy with the depiction of Johnny Fontaine, which is much more elaborate in the book than it turns out to be in the film.

[Mark Seal]

And in 1969, Sinatra had just come out with My Way. So he's about as big as an artist can get at this point.

[Podcast Host]

Well, Frank Sinatra was a superstar, probably the greatest Italian American singer of all time.

[Mark Seal]

So Mario Puzo knew who Frank Sinatra was and probably modeled the character of Johnny Fontaine on him.

[Podcast Host]

Well, not only knew who he was, he adored him. He idolized him. He said when he was growing up in Hell's Kitchen, there were two pictures on the wall, one of John F. Kennedy and the other of Frank Sinatra. He was iconic in Mario's eyes.

[Mark Seal]

And Sinatra was an Italian American success story. He was from Hoboken, New Jersey, which is not far away from where Mario Puzo grew up in Hell's Kitchen. And he represented that Italian American way of life.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, he was a huge success story. I mean, Mario surely looked up to him as a supreme entertainer and also as a success story of a young man who could come out of Hoboken and capture the hearts and minds of the world with his talent. You know, in many ways, their stories were similar, except that Mario was kind of the flip side of Frank Sinatra. He wasn't the handsome movie star, suave singer, but his talent was that he could write, you know, and so Mario Puzo and Frank Sinatra had a lot in common and then a lot different as well.

[Mark Seal]

So this is all a roundabout way of saying that when Puzo spotted Sinatra across the room in Chasens that fateful night, he was excited and knew who he was, Right?

[Podcast Host]

Exactly. He knew who he was. He said in his book the Godfather Chronicles, that he saw Frank Sinatra and John Wayne and Chasens looking like two gods. You know, they were tanned and thin and fit, and they were just movie stars. They were stars.

[Mark Seal]

And Janet Snow was actually there. So she has her account of what happened that evening.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, and this is one of those stories that has a few versions, but Janet was there, and she says that she drove them to Chasen. They walked in, and people started flooding Mario Puzo for autographs. And across the room, she spots Sinatra, and she already knows that Sinatra is unhappy with Mario's depiction of Johnny Fontaine in the book. So the two sit down for dinner, and here's how Janet says it happened.

[Janet Snow]

I excuse myself and go to the ladies room, and I came back, and Mario was gone. And I sat down. I thought, oh, maybe he went to the ministry room. So I'm just sitting there, and then it occurs to me, I. I look over at Sinatra's table, and, oh, my God, Mario standing at Sinatra's table. And so I ran over and I looked at Mario, and his face was ashen, and Sinatra was looking down at the table at his plate and speaking in Italian. And he was very unhappy. And I couldn't understand what he was saying. And I just knew I had to get Mario out of there right then.

[Mark Seal]

So what did Sinatra actually say to Puzo?

[Podcast Host]

Well, it's kind of a mystery, but according to Mario, he approached Sinatra to meet him just as a fan. And Sinatra was very adamant that he did not want to meet Mario Puzo. So Puzo starts apologizing for approaching him. Well, Sinatra takes that as an apology for the Johnny Fontaine character in the book. And Sinatra asks him, who told you to put that in your book? Your publisher. And Puzo sets the record straight. No one tells him what to put in his books. He said he was apologizing for trying to meet Sinatra, nothing else. Which is when Sinatra started yelling at him.

[Mark Seal]

Do you think Mario intended Johnny Fontaine as a sort of admiring portrait of Sinatra?

[Podcast Host]

You know, I think so, but at the same time, he didn't hold back. When you read the parts about Johnny Fontaine in the novel, I could see why Frank Sinatra might not have been happy with it. And even in the movie, you know, Johnny Fontaine, he's slapped by the Godfather when he starts crying about his career. So there's good and bad about Johnny Fontaine in the movie. I mean, obviously, they make it clear that he's a huge star. The way he comes into the wedding scene and Connie yells, johnny, Johnny. And the mother says, johnny, sing us a song. And, you know, it's just so romantic. It seems like it would be like that if Frank Sinatra walked into a wedding like Johnny Fontaine did.

[Mark Seal]

But Puzo certainly didn't mean anything bad to Sinatra by it.

[Podcast Host]

I don't think so. He's a writer. He didn't call him Frank Sinatra. He called him Johnny Fontaine, which I love the name, don't you? It's just the perfect name. If you read the novel, there's a lot about him that I could see Frank Sinatra would not have liked, especially if he felt like it was being modeled on him.

[Mark Seal]

But if you look at the movie, it was worth including those Johnny Fontaine sections because they're really some of the most iconic ones in the film.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, well, Johnny Fontaine's the reason for the whole horse's head scene, you know, because Jack Waltz wouldn't give him the role in that war picture he was making, you know, no way Johnny Fontaine gets that part in the movie. So without Johnny Fontaine, you wouldn't have had those extraordinary scenes of the horse's head. And then all of a sudden, they cut to the Godfather's office and the flowers from Johnny, you know, thanking the Godfather for getting him a part in that movie. I mean, without Johnny Fontaine, you'd be missing a lot.

[Mark Seal]

Do you think this was a wake up call for Puzo and sort of his first exposure to Hollywood ego?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I think he probably felt like, we're not in Kansas anymore, you know, but at the same time, he wasn't by any means innocent. I think he knew what he was getting into. And he was a very smart man. He knew the town was different than where he had grown up. But he grew up in New York. Let's face it. He grew up in Hell's Kitchen. He was used to all sorts of people, so he was not naive in any way.

[Mark Seal]

Well, Mark, let's talk about how Coppola came into the picture. At this point, there's a draft of the script, but there's no director attached to do anything with it.

[Podcast Host]

Yes. So Paramount was looking for a bankable director to direct the Godfather. It was going to be a big release, and they wanted an equally big name in charge. They went out to a bunch of directors like Sam Peckinpah and Otto Preminger, but they either weren't right or they didn't want to be involved. It was considered glorifying the Mafia, and most bankable directors weren't interested in that. And then one day on the drive to work together, Peter Bart and Robert Evans got to talking and they hit upon the idea that what was missing in most of the gangster films of those days, including the Brotherhood starring Kirk Douglas, and Scarface starring Jimmy Cagney, they didn't feature Italian Americans in leading roles. And so that was a difference. And so Evans says he wants to create a movie that is so authentically Italian American that you can smell the spaghetti. And nothing could be more authentic than having an Italian American director. And only one name came to mind. Francis Ford Coppola. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli is a production of Air Mail and iheartmedia.

[Mark Seal]

The podcast is based on the book of the same name written by our very own Mark Seal.

[Podcast Host]

Our producer is Tina Mullen.

[Mark Seal]

Research assistants by Jack Sullivan.

[Podcast Host]

Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.

[Mark Seal]

Our music supervisor is Randall Poster. Our executive producers are me, Nathan King, Mark Zeal, Dylan Fagan and Graydon Carter.

[Podcast Host]

Special thanks to Bridget Arseneaux and everyone at CDM Studios.

[Mark Seal]

A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found in Mark Seals book Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.

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[Janet Snow]

We hold in our hearts.

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[Podcast Host]

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