Stranger Than Pulp Fiction

Summary

Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli: Episode Summary - "Stranger Than Pulp Fiction"

Released: February 26, 2025 | Host: iHeartPodcasts | Based on Mark Seal's Book

---

Introduction: The Genesis of a Mafia Masterpiece

In the episode titled "Stranger Than Pulp Fiction," hosted by iHeartPodcasts, listeners are taken on an intricate journey behind the creation of The Godfather, one of Hollywood’s most iconic films. Drawing heavily from Mark Seal's comprehensive 2021 book, the episode delves into the tumultuous path Mario Puzo traversed to bring his mafia-infused narrative to life, intertwining historical events with personal struggles.

---

Historical Context: Joseph Valachi and the Mafia Revelation

The episode opens by setting the stage with a pivotal moment in American history—the Valachi Hearings of 1963, where Joseph Valachi, a high-ranking member of the Genovese crime family, became the first Mafia insider to testify publicly about the inner workings of Cosa Nostra.

• Mark Seal recounts Valachi’s defiance during the hearings:

  "How would you feel if you went back to prison? I'd have to protect myself again, Senator. I'd have to kill or be killed again." (02:01)

Valachi's revelations introduced the term "Mafia" to the American public, reshaping perceptions of organized crime and laying the groundwork for future narratives in literature and film.

• Nathan King highlights the impact:

  "He told and showed everything on national television and he even used the word godfather." (07:03)

---

Mario Puzo’s Inspiration and Background

Central to the episode is Mario Puzo, whose personal history and environment significantly influenced his writing. Born in Hell's Kitchen, a notoriously rough neighborhood in New York, Puzo's struggles with poverty and his dreams of literary success form the backdrop of his journey.

• Narrator describes Puzo’s early life:

  "Mario was born into one of the worst sections of New York, whose very name evokes his depravity, Hell's Kitchen." (16:41)

Despite his mother's aspirations for him to secure a stable job, Puzo's passion for writing led him down a different path. His early years were marked by financial instability, gambling, and an unfulfilled desire to create high art akin to Dostoevsky.

• Mark Seal reflects on Puzo's familial influences:

  "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man." (17:15)

---

Creation and Publication of The Godfather

The turning point in Puzo's career came when his publisher suggested incorporating more Mafia elements into his pulp fiction to boost sales. Inspired by the Valachi Hearings, Puzo began crafting what would become The Godfather.

• Nathan King explains the creative ignition:

  "He remembered how he had been engrossed by the Valachi hearings." (25:30)

Puzo's dedication is evident as he meticulously researched, outlining a detailed narrative that eventually secured a significant advance and propelled him into literary fame.

• Narrator emphasizes Puzo's transformation:

  "He had decided, give up on high art and those aspirations to be a doctor or something like that, you know, to be a fine art writer. He was writing a sensational story about a sensational family in a sensational world." (35:27)

Despite his initial intentions to write for monetary gain, The Godfather transcended expectations, becoming an international bestseller and cementing Puzo's legacy in both literature and cinema.

---

Paramount and the Making of the Film

Transitioning from the literary success of The Godfather to its adaptation into film, the episode explores the challenges faced during production. Paramount initially hesitated to greenlight a Mafia film, recalling the underwhelming reception of previous attempts.

• Mark Seal notes Paramount's reluctance:

  "Nobody wanted to make it. As a matter of fact, Paramount refused to make it for a while." (40:35)

Enter Al Ruddy, a producer renowned for managing low-budget projects, who took on the daunting task of bringing Puzo's vision to the screen despite studio skepticism.

• Mark Seal recounts Ruddy’s pivotal role:

  "I get a call one time, do I want to produce the Godfather? I thought it was a joke." (41:05)

Ruddy’s commitment and belief in the material were instrumental in overcoming numerous production hurdles, ultimately leading to the creation of a film that would redefine American cinema.

---

Conclusion: Legacy and Impact

Stranger Than Pulp Fiction culminates by reflecting on the unpredictable nature of creative endeavors. Mario Puzo, through resilience and a keen eye for storytelling, not only achieved his dream of literary success but also left an indelible mark on Hollywood.

• Narrator concludes with Puzo’s unanticipated triumph:

  "I think he had no idea that he was writing a bestseller. And I don't think he'd ever dreamed The Godfather would become an international bestseller and a model for possibly the greatest movie of all time." (36:35)

The episode underscores the intricate dance between reality and fiction, illustrating how real-life events and personal tribulations can inspire narrative masterpieces that resonate across generations.

---

Notable Quotes

• Joseph Valachi:

  "How would you feel if you went back to prison? I'd have to protect myself again, Senator. I'd have to kill or be killed again." (02:01)

• Mark Seal:

  "Nobody wanted to make it. As a matter of fact, Paramount refused to make it for a while." *(40:35)

• Narrator:

  "He was writing a sensational story about a sensational family in a sensational world." (35:27)

• Mario Puzo (Attributed):

  "At that moment, I decided, I'm gonna become rich and famous." (20:31)

---

Final Thoughts

Stranger Than Pulp Fiction offers a compelling exploration of how Mario Puzo's hardships and the real-life Mafia revelations shaped one of the most beloved stories in modern literature and film. Through interviews, archival insights, and engaging storytelling, the episode not only honors Puzo’s legacy but also provides a nuanced understanding of the intricate relationship between life and art.

Transcript

[Target Advertiser]

Bring spring to your door with target circle 360. Get all you need for Easter hosting spring get togethers and more with unlimited same day Delivery through Target Circle360. From Easter Basket goodies to fresh florals, getting everything the same day is easy. Open the Target app and bring the magic of the season to your door with unlimited same day delivery Through Target Circle360. Visit target.com circle or the Target app for more details. Subscription required. Same day delivery is subject to terms Applies to orders over $35.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] iheart I've never felt like this before.

[Narrator]

It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Does that sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous.

[Narrator]

Okay, that's it.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

I'm taking you home with me.

[Narrator]

I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

And more at your DSW store or.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Dsw.Com hello it is Ryan and we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we? Just to make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting your steps. You know, all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumba Casino has all your favorite social casino style games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere with daily bonuses. So sign up [e-mail] that's chumbacasino.com no.

[Narrator]

Purchase necessary vgw group void where prohibited.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

By law 21 + terms and conditions apply.

[Mark Seal]

How would you feel if you went back to prison? I'll have to protect myself again, Senator. I'd have to kill or be killed again.

[Narrator]

September 19, 1963. A dead broke writer is lying on his couch in suburban New York. He's glued to his television set, but he's not watching a mob movie. He's watching a Senate hearing.

[Mark Seal]

This is a special report from CBS News in Washington, the Congress and Cosa Nostra.

[Narrator]

The testimony is from Cosa Nostra insider Joseph Valachi, who would become better known as the first man to rat on the mob on national television.

[Mark Seal]

The sworn testimony you just heard came from the lips of Joseph Valachi. Lips that supposedly were sealed 33 years ago when he joined America's underworld crime syndicate, Cosa Nostra.

[Narrator]

The world he describes has a name, a name that's new to most Americans. Mafia.

[Mark Seal]

Would it be fair to say that you went back to prison? That you'd be a dead man? If they got at me, I. I wouldn't be in there five minutes, Senator.

[Narrator]

Meanwhile, the man watching his television set would say he had never met a real gangster, but he knows enough to see the story for what it is.

[Mark Seal]

As the Senator put it before. What did I get out of it? What'd you get out of it? Nothing but misery, as you all understand. Once you're in, you're in. You can't get out.

[Narrator]

The man on the couch sees a true American story. A web of family and brutality, loyalty and betrayal, fathers and sons, immigration and the American dream. The man doesn't know it yet, but this inspiration will stay with him for years to come. The man's name? Mario Puzo. I'm Mark Seale.

[Nathan King]

And I'm Nathan King.

[Narrator]

And this is. Leave the Gun, Take the cannoli. In today's episode, we're taking a closer look at the real life Mafia stories that influenced Mario Puzo's book and diving.

[Nathan King]

Into the life and career of the unlikely author who ascended from the depths of Hell's Kitchen to the glitz and glam of Hollywood.

[Narrator]

We'll also learn how Puzo's novel landed in the hands of Paramount executive Robert Evans when he needed it most.

[Nathan King]

So let's get started.

[Mark Seal]

Did you do anything for the family at all in this time, or did they just do things for you? Just go, go out, kill for them.

[Nathan King]

You'd go out what killed Mark? The Valachi hearings are infamous. Joseph Valachi was a made man, a member of the Genovese crime family and longtime henchman for mob boss Vito Genovese.

[Narrator]

Yes, and it was absolutely shocking at the time, especially since Joe Valachi knew exactly how the mob treated snitches.

[Nathan King]

Well, he had some firsthand experience. He was intimately familiar with the story of Alberto Aguichi.

[Narrator]

And it's a particularly gruesome story. When I was researching for the book, it stood out as an incredible example of the brutality of the Mafia.

[Nathan King]

Oguichi was a baker from Toronto. But Baker is sort of in quotes, isn't it?

[Narrator]

Baker is Definitely in quotes. He was really a heroin smuggler and an associate of the Magadino crime family in Buffalo. And In May of 1961, he was indicted along with 19 others and in $150 million heroin smuggling ring.

[Nathan King]

We're talking about the notorious French Connection heroin smuggling ring that started in the 30s and stretched from Indochina all the way to France, then to Canada and.

[Narrator]

The U.S. and one of those 19 others was our mob man turned informant, Joseph Valachi. And while in jail together, Valachi listened as Iguigi absolutely railed against Magadino, who he had expected to raise money for his bail, but instead was letting him rot in jail.

[Nathan King]

It's generally not a good idea to talk badly about a crime boss as you're in prison.

[Narrator]

Not at all. Iguichi ended up having to sell his house to make bail and was apparently threatening to flip on Magonino.

[Nathan King]

But it didn't last long, because In October of 1961, Alberto left his wife and daughters in Toronto to meet Magadino. He never made it, though. He ended up badly beaten, burned, really gruesomely disfigured in a cornfield.

[Narrator]

I wrote in the book that it was like encountering an animal or something. The police couldn't even tell that it was human. It was in the middle of a circle that had been burned into the grass like a demented sign from hell.

[Nathan King]

And no one really knows who did it. But people suspect that Magadino had caught wind of the fact that Iguigi was railing against him and speaking poorly and taking his name in vain and had something done about it. Now, the rest of the story is incredibly complicated, and we don't have time to tell it here, but it's a tale of brotherhood and betrayal and threats on people's lives. And ultimately, Joseph Valachi ends up fearing for his life.

[Mark Seal]

It was at this point, apparently, when Valachi decided to sing for protection. An FBI agent was assigned to him full time, and the Justice Department began filling in the blanks on its chart of Cosa Nostra. This is Valachi's great value, says the Department. He is the first member of Cosa Nostra publicly to confirm its existence.

[Nathan King]

And this is how we get hours of televised Senate testimony about the inner workings of the Mafia.

[Narrator]

And it's the first time the word Mafia was ever heard by most Americans.

[Nathan King]

But Americans had some understanding of organized crime.

[Narrator]

Yes, in the 1950s, there was something called the Kefauver hearings, which were televised in 14 cities across America. And it was something else. It was a hit. It was like a primetime reality show that people were glued to their television sets to watch. It was a parade of what One publication called 600 Gangsters, Pimps, Bookies and shady lawyers who testified about the activities of organized crime up until that point.

[Nathan King]

This is something that had existed in the shadows and suddenly it's in living rooms across America. You have these gangsters on screen talking about, or in some cases not talking about their crimes. This was pretty electrifying stuff in its day.

[Narrator]

Yes, it sure was. 30 million Americans tuned in. And remember, this is still in the early days of tv.

[Nathan King]

Was this the hearing where Frank Costello testified without showing his face?

[Narrator]

Yes. Frank Costello, the all powerful leader of the Luciano crime family, was shot only from the neck down, so you couldn't see his face and he wouldn't really say anything. But still, just to watch him in. The hearings was a huge hit. The New York Times headlined its article, Costello TV's first headless star. Only his hands entertain audiences.

[Mark Seal]

You must have in your mind some things you've done that you can speak of to your credit as American citizen. If so, what are they paid by tax?

[Narrator]

This was like the Sopranos in real.

[Nathan King]

Life, but nothing compared to the Valachi hearings 10 years later.

[Narrator]

Yes, 10 years later, Joseph Valachi did what Costello would not. He told and showed everything.

[Mark Seal]

May I ask at this time, when did you become a member of this organization? 1930. What is the name of it? Cosa Nostra in Italian, our thing, and our family in English.

[Nathan King]

And he said a lot in those 31 hours of testimony?

[Narrator]

Yeah, he gives almost everything. He tells about what the initiation rites were. He tells the codes, he tells the hierarchy.

[Mark Seal]

Well, this is a secret organization. How do you get to know that someone is a member of the same family? He'll introduce him to you, for instance, as a friend of ours. That means a member. Now, if he happens to be with someone that isn't a friend of ours, he would just simply say, meet a friend of mine. Which means nothing. That's the code between us.

[Narrator]

The mob put out a hit on him, offering 100 grand to anyone who could take him out. But it was too late. He had already spilled everything on national television and he even used the word godfather.

[Nathan King]

And on the other side of the television screen, Mario Puzo is soaking all of this in like a sponge.

[Narrator]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, the testimony was authentic. It was real. But Mario Puzo was a writer, an author who. A great researcher. So he's sitting at home in the suburbs of New York, lying on his couch watching these hearings like everybody else. But he did what nobody else did. He was able to take these hearings and fictionalize them and create a family that was even more romantic, more dangerous, more influential than anything he's seen on television. He created the Corleone family.

[Nathan King]

You've described Puzo as a white whale in your reporting of the story because you never actually got to speak to him. But how did you get to the heart of his story and his background?

[Narrator]

To my eternal regret, Mario Puzo had passed away by the time I started working on the magazine article and. And of course, later, the book. But he would tell his incredible story himself in numerous newspapers and magazine articles and later in interviews. And I was able to speak to his eldest daughter, Dorothy Puzo, who told me in an email that she thought most likely her father had tossed all of the research, all of the writing that he had done on the movie and the book, the Godfather. She said, you know, he was a poor aspiring writer who would know to keep that stuff. But to my astonishment and amazement and good fortune, those things weren't tossed. They were saved. And they're now on display at Dartmouth University in a library. There you can see his writing on the back of folders, which he liked to use with a red Sharpie. You can see his typewriter. You can read early drafts of both the novel and the screenplay of the Godfather. And then later in my research for the book, I was able to speak with his son, Anthony Puzo, who was invaluable in telling me about his illustrious father, the Frog, who became a prince of Hollywood and the true hero of the Godfather.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Let's be honest. Most of us have a love hate relationship with wired bras. We love the lift, but hate the digging. We love the support, but hate feeling trapped. Well, Nyx just changed everything with Freeflex, A wired bra actually designed to work with your body, not against it. Freeflex features a revolutionary flexible wire that moves when you move, bends when you bend, and keeps everything exactly where you want it. No poking, no stabbing, no constant readjusting, just freedom to move. It also has a demi cup shape for a natural lift with a lower neckline that flatters in everything from V necks to dresses. And because it's from Nyx, it's available in sizes for every body. Experience the first wired bra you'll actually want to wear all day. Visit nyx.com for 15% off your order with Free Flex 15. That's kn ix.com code freeflex15 for 15%.

[Target Advertiser]

Off nyx.com bring spring to your door with Target Circle 360. Get all you need for Easter hosting spring get togethers and more with unlimited same day delivery Through Target Circle 360. From Easter basket goodies to fresh florals, getting everything the same day is easy. Open the Target app and bring the magic of the season to your door with unlimited same day delivery Through Target Circle360. Visit target.com circle or the Target app for more details. Subscription required. Same day delivery is subject to terms. Applies to orders over $35.

[Dime Beauty Advertiser]

It's tax season, and by now. I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft related to tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all grim news. Here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it. Backed by another good number, the million dollar protection plan. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply.

[Narrator]

Hi, this is Jevon, your blinds.com design consultant.

[Blinds.com Consultant]

Oh, wow, a real person.

[Narrator]

Yep. I'm here to help with everything from selecting the perfect window treatments to. Well, I've got a complicated project. No problem. We make the complex simple. I can even help schedule a professional measuring install.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

I didn't realize you did that.

[Narrator]

We can also send you samples fast and free. Wow.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

I mean, I always thought I needed a designer to come to my home, but scheduling's always a Nightmare.

[Narrator]

Not with blinds.com, we're on your schedule. And there's no haggling pressure or hidden fees either. Hmm.

[Blinds.com Consultant]

I just might have to do more.

[Narrator]

Whatever you need. How about you tell me what you had in mind?

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Okay, then.

[Narrator]

So the first room we're looking at.

[Blinds.com Consultant]

Is for guests coming over, and I'm thinking of something.

[Target Advertiser]

Blinds.com has covered over 25 million windows, all backed by a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Shopblinds.com now and get up to 40% off with. With minimum purchase rules and restrictions may apply.

[Nathan King]

Where did Puzo come from? Because in a lot of ways, he's the most unlikely character of all in this story.

[Narrator]

Yes, his life was like an unlikely fairy tale, as he wrote in various accounts, including his 1972 memoir, The Godfather, Papers and Other Confessions. Mario was born into one of the worst sections of New York, whose very name evokes his depravity, Hell's Kitchen. And he was born into a family of immigrants, many of them illiterate, including his mother, who he said could not even read or sign her name, but who employed language like a weapon. Many of the terms that Mario used in the Godfather, he said, were straight out of his mama's mouth.

[Mark Seal]

A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man.

[Narrator]

He grew up in a large family in a tenement flat, and Puzo claimed he never met an honest to God gangster, even though they were all around him.

[Nathan King]

Was his mother worried that he would fall prey to the bat element in the neighborhood?

[Narrator]

Absolutely. His mother was very protective of Mario, but she wasn't worried about guns so much as girls. Mario claimed he never had that many dates, though.

[Nathan King]

And he was one of 13 kids.

[Narrator]

Yes. And from the beginning, he was different from the rest. He loved gambling. He loved to pitch pennies and play cards, and he liked to read. And early on, he would read Dostoyevsky and go to the library.

[Nathan King]

And for a long time, he was sort of a hopeless character. Fame and fortune eluded him. Right, Mark?

[Narrator]

Yeah, for a long, long time. He grew up, he was very impoverished. They were so poor that Mario said that once his teacher asked all the students to bring a can of food for the poor. And Mario would say, they didn't know we were the poor. And he went out anyway with the other kids in his neighborhood, and they went out and stole cans of food to be able to bring it to school.

[Nathan King]

What did his mom think about his profession as a writer?

[Narrator]

Well, her greatest aspiration for Mario was that he would become a railroad clerk and get a steady salary. He liked to say, every family has a chooch, the Italian word for donkey. And he goes, in my family, the chooch was me. College, he would later write, wasn't an option. There were two high schools in his neighborhood, and his mom and sister thought he should go to the one. That didn't prepare you for college. He asked, why didn't you urge me to attend college? And his sister says, because you were stupid.

[Nathan King]

And he didn't become a writer right away, did he?

[Narrator]

No. Poor Mario. He suffered so much before finding his future as a writer. Things were so grim for Mario Puzo that When World War II broke out, he was excited to get away from home. So he joined the military. You know, it was a dream to him. He was assigned to the 4th Armored Division, Vision. Private Puzo. He's deployed to Europe. He drove a jeep. He had affairs. He found a wife, a German woman who he fell in love with and brought back to America. And best of all, he found material for his first novel.

[Nathan King]

It sounds like World War II was the best thing to ever happen to him.

[Narrator]

Well, not immediately. Typical to Mario is the suffering. He had dreams of being a writer, but he didn't know where to start. So he went to the City College of New York on the GI Bill, and he studied literature and creative writing. And then he did what would become his trademark. He struggled. His weight went up. His bank account went down. He was broke all the time. He was gambling, he was adrift. He got a job as a clerk at the Manhattan Armory. But he never had enough money to quit his day job to become a writer. He wanted to write high art. He wanted to be an artistic writer. He wanted to be like Dostoevsky or other writers he admired. But it was all just a struggle for him. Some of his diaries still exist, and it's just full of torment and loss and the theme that money is just ruining everything.

[Nathan King]

And does he sit down and write his war novel?

[Narrator]

Yes, all along. He's writing his first novel, the Dark arena, which gets published by random house in 1954. And he thinks, wow, this is it. You know, I'm a published author. But the reviews were mixed. It didn't do for him what he expected. And Mario got an advance of $3,500, which was quickly gone. His weight was way up. His hopes were way down. And then on Christmas Eve, something incredible happened. He was at home, and he suffered a severe gallbladder attack. He called a taxi, which drove him to New York City and exclusive, excruciating pain. He arrived at the VA hospital, and just then the attack worsened. He opened the door of the taxi and he fell out, and he landed in a gutter. And he wrote about it later in Time magazine. Here I am, a published author, and I'm lying in a gutter, dying like a dog. At that moment, I decided, I'm gonna become rich and famous.

[Nathan King]

Wow. So he had really hit rock bottom. How long did it take for him to pull himself up by his bootstraps?

[Narrator]

Well, A long time. Because just because you say you want something to happen doesn't mean it will. By 1960, Mario's family had grown to five kids. And his job was in danger because the FBI was investigating his unit for helping young soldiers evade the draft. Mario was never charged, but he ended up quitting his job and pursuing the most unusual path for a writer who aspired to high art.

[Nathan King]

He decided to become a pulp fiction writer.

[Narrator]

Exactly. It was a company called Magazine Management. And if there was any man who was destined to write pulp fiction, it was Mario Puzo. I was able to speak with one of his colleagues, John Bowers, and he said Mario was just able to use his research to invent whole worlds.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

But Mario had infinite energy at writing. He just could write like nobody's business.

[Narrator]

So he walked into the pulp fiction offices of Magazine Management. It's a smoke filled office. It's full of men and women sitting over clattering typewriters, pumping out copy for like this never ending flood of trash magazines with names like Mail and Stag and for men only. They were called magazines, but they were really sort of rags. And soon Mario Puza was pumping out salacious stories of brave GIs, of damsels in distress.

[Nathan King]

He even wrote a story that took place in Hawaii where mobsters busted in a gambling parlor.

[Narrator]

Right, exactly. Yeah, that was just one of the many stories, but I think that was the first of all the ones that I saw that really tackled some instance of the mafia.

[Nathan King]

And of course, most of it was just dreamed up.

[Narrator]

Not most of it. All of it was dreamed up. I mean, he said once that he would take a real life battle where 7,000 people got killed and turn it into a bloody battle where 100,000 died.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

I wish you could read some of those magic stories. It was larger than life. It didn't have to depend upon fact checking at all.

[Narrator]

He'd amp up the action no matter what. And that became his trademark. He became one of the top pulp fiction writers of all time. Before, you know, he was aspiring to high art. He was spending his time on these novels that didn't make him any money. He had enormous expenses, not only the bookies that he owed money to, but also, you know, he had a family of five kids. He had to make a living. He had to bring money home. And he owed money to the irs. He owed money to his family, he owed money to the bookkeeper. And he kept gambling, he kept eating, he kept living this life that was just way beyond his means.

[Nathan King]

And as much as he aspired to High art. It seems like he was almost destined to write pulp fiction. I mean, after eight years doing it, he was pretty much the most successful of any of them.

[Narrator]

Well, yeah, but he was not making a huge amount of money.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Yeah, I believe we got something like $150, something like that for the week.

[Narrator]

So he went back to his publisher and said, you know, I'm ready for my third book, my third novel. And his publisher said, forget about it, Mario. They weren't ready to assign him a third book. And one of the editors said, well, you know, if the fortunate pilgrim had a little bit more of that Mafia stuff in it, maybe it would sell. And those words rang in Mario Puzo's head. A little bit more of that Mafia stuff.

[Nathan King]

And that's when it all clicked for him. He remembered how he had been engrossed by the Valachi hearings.

[Narrator]

It's like a scene out of a movie. I mean, here's this overweight, overwrought in debt writer, and he pays 10 bucks for the 10 volume transcripts of the Kefauver hearings. And he gets access to his friend Peter Massa's book on the Balachi hearings. And he gets a lot of other research. And he sits down in his basement and he cranks out a 10 page outline and he takes it to his agent, the legendary Candido Donadio. And she sends it out to various publishers. And much to Mario's surprise, one of them gives him $5,000. And what does he do? Of course, he spends the money. And he doesn't work on the book cards.

[Nathan King]

Seriously?

[Narrator]

Yes. He gambles. He spends some money on his family, obviously, and soon the money is all gone.

[Nathan King]

But the important thing is that he has a fire lit under him and he has to deliver the book.

[Narrator]

Not so fast, Nathan. There's one place a struggling writer can turn to for some fast cash.

[Nathan King]

This must be when he goes to Hollywood. Allegedly, Evan says Puzo shows up at the gates of Paramount, 35 pages under his arm, looking broke, and sells the option to Paramount for 12,005.

[Narrator]

And Mario claims he sold the option through his agent and the story editor at Paramount and that he never even went to California.

[Nathan King]

Well, regardless of what happened, he sold the option to Paramount for big money.

[Narrator]

For Mario, too. 12,500.

[Nathan King]

So now he writes the book?

[Narrator]

Yes. He goes home, he walks down the stairs to his basement, and there, between the pool table and the constant racket of his five kids, a Mafia family rises up from his typewriter. And what a family it is. He gets the name from a town in Sicily, one of the most mafia invested towns in the country. Corleone. There's Don Vito Corleone, the Godfather. There's the eldest son and heir apparent, Santino, known as Sonny. There's the middle son, the poor suffering subservient Fredo. And there's the youngest, the future, the college boy who chose to enlist in the military instead of the Mafia.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Michael let's be honest. Most of us have a love hate relationship with wired bras. We love the lift, but hate the digging. We love the support, but hate feeling trapped. Well, Nyx just changed everything with Free Flex, a wired bra actually designed to work with your body, not against it. Free Flex features a revolutionary flexible wire that moves when you move, bends when you bend, and keeps everything exactly where you want it. No poking, no stabbing, no constant readjusting, just freedom to move. It also has a demi cup shape for a natural lift with a lower neckline that flatters in everything from V necks to dresses. And because it's from Knicks, it's available in sizes for every body. Experience the first wired bra you'll actually want to wear all day. Visit knicks.com for 15% off your order with Free Flex 15. That's kn ix.com code Free Flex 15 for 15% off nyx.com bring spring to.

[Target Advertiser]

Your door with Target Circle 360 get all you need for Easter hosting spring get togethers and more with unlimited same day Delivery through Target Circle360 from Easter Basket goodies to fresh florals, getting everything the same day is easy. Open the Target app and bring the magic of the season to your door with unlimited same day delivery Through Target Circle 360. Visit target.com circle or the Target app for more details. Subscription required Same day delivery is subject to terms applies to orders over $35.

[Blinds.com Consultant]

Ready to prioritize yourself in the new year, your skin is a great place to start. Dime Beauty, founded by a master esthetician, is more than just a skincare company. With four skin Conscious, Skincare, Beauty, Body Care and fragrance, DAIM offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, Dime makes it easy. The Work system our all in one best selling routine includes a cleanser of your choice, toner serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the planet. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting dime beauty co.com that's dime beauty co.com your best skin awaits.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Ryan Seacrest here. When you have a busy schedule, it's important to maximize your downtime. One of the best ways to do that is by going to chumbacasino.com Chumba Casino has all your fun favorite social casino games like spin slots, bingo and solitaire that you can play for free for a chance to redeem some serious prizes. So hop on to chumbacasino.com now and live the Chumba life. Sponsored by Chumba Casino.

[Narrator]

No purchase necessary vgw group void.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

We're prohibited by law 21 plus terms and conditions apply.

[Narrator]

Mario, of course, claimed he had never met an honest to goodness gangster. But he looked for inspiration wherever he could. One story I just love from when he was writing the book was that one night in 1966, the author Gay Talese and his wife Nan, invited Mario to dinner at the home of Talese's aunt, Susan Pileggi. And Susan Pileggi, of course, is the mother of the also famous writer Nick Pileggi, who had gone to write the.

[Nathan King]

Novel Wise Guy, which was the foundation for Goodfellas.

[Narrator]

Exactly. And Gay Talise had written the organized crime classic Honor Thy Father. And so here's a newcomer to the realm, Mario Puzo, the author of the forthcoming Godfather, at the same table. So he takes one look at Nan Talese, who'd grown up on the Upper east side, who was from a different world, very genteel, educated, and he immediately found a model for the wife of Michael Corleone.

[Nathan King]

K. So he was really pulling from all around him for inspiration.

[Narrator]

That was the brilliance of Mario Puzo, that he would find inspiration in unlikely places. So another thing I was able to discover is that Mario, being Mario and loving Las Vegas more than any other place on earth, probably would go to Las Vegas regularly and gamble at, among other places, the Sands Hotel. And I was able to interview Ed Walters, who worked as a pit boss at the Sandstone. Tell me when you first saw Mario Puzo.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Mario Puzo came to Vegas. He used to play and he used to come to Vegas a lot. He was a roulette fiend.

[Narrator]

He played roulette and he said that Mario would come in and gamble and at the same time ask questions for his forthcoming book about the mob.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

He was a little pudgy guy, and I met him through. He was talking to this dealer on the roulette wheels. And I was on the wheels at that time. And I understand. I'd listen to him. I'd answer questions myself. He'd ask questions about Sinatra and the mob and money. And because of me, then I opened up about. Because he had things wrong. I said, no, you got it mixed up. The mob and the Mafia are not the same thing. The Mafia are all Italians. They're all blood guys from a certain place and thing, or the mob is different. And then I explained to them the outfit and all these terms.

[Narrator]

And of course, Ed Walters, who knew a bit about the mob because he had come from New York City, where he had known a lot of people that were, let's say, somehow connected, told Mario a bit, you know, to keep him gambling there. And Mario would ask questions about who was who and what was what. And as long as he kept gambling, Ed Walters kept talking. Was he taking notes and everything while you were telling him this?

[LifeLock Advertiser]

No, he didn't at first, but then he started to.

[Narrator]

And pretty soon, Mario had an insight into the Vegas aspect of the mob, which figured into the Godfather quite a bit.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

He'd say, so, Eddie, tell me, how deep is Citra in the mob? I said, hold it, hold it, hold it. I said, santrain in the box. Stop it. He said, guys told me, he's in the mob. I said, full of. I said, I just not in the mob. He works for us. He's a entertainer. And he thought, wow, that's interesting.

[Narrator]

So Mario would be playing while he's talking to him?

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah, all the time. Oh, he could never just sit there and take notes? No.

[Narrator]

Why?

[LifeLock Advertiser]

They wouldn't.

[Narrator]

Oh, yeah.

[LifeLock Advertiser]

We don't want no guy sitting in a casino taking notes.

[Narrator]

So you let him do it because he was playing?

[LifeLock Advertiser]

Yes, because he's playing. Oh, so that was good for you. Yeah, of course, I told some people he's writing a book or some. I don't know. But as long as he played. As long as he played, fine. But there's no way. If a guy was never sitting there taking notes when he could, we'd come down, say, what are you writing a book? Yeah. Get the out of here.

[Nathan King]

So do you think Mario knew he had to do something different here? I mean, you mentioned his daughter Dorothy saying that he couldn't have known this book would be a success.

[Narrator]

No, of course he didn't think it was going to be a great success while he was writing. He was writing as he Always did, he liked to say, for a paycheck. But at the same time, he had decided, give up on high art and those aspirations to be a doctor or something like that, you know, to be a fine art writer. He was writing a sensational story about a sensational family in a sensational world, and he had no aspirations of writing. Writing high art. He wanted to turn this book into bucks. He wanted to make money on the Godfather.

[Nathan King]

Funnily enough, with his back against the wall, he ends up turning out the most Dostoevsky esque of all of his novels.

[Narrator]

Yeah, I know. It became something of a masterpiece. I mean, I wouldn't say it was, you know, incredible literature, but at the same time, it was a page turner, a pot boiler. It had all the attributes of, like, Valley of the Dolls or something like that, but set in the world of organized crime. I don't think he expected it to do what it did, though. Still, I think he thought he was gonna, you know, write a book for money, get his $5,000 advance and maybe some royalties, pay off some debts, and then get onto the next project instead. It took the world by storm.

[Nathan King]

Well, and when he was down in that basement and the kids were screaming, he would shout, quiet. Don't you know I'm writing a bestseller here?

[Narrator]

Yeah, but I think that was a joke. You know, the kids would laugh, he would laugh. I think he had no idea that he was writing a best seller. And I don't think he'd ever dreamed the Godfather would become an international bestseller and a model for possibly the greatest movie of all time.

[Nathan King]

When he does eventually finish the book, what happens?

[Narrator]

So he leaves the pages with his agent, Candido Donatio, and in true Mario Puzo fashion, he takes his money, he takes his family, and he flies off to Europe for a big vacation with lots of food and gambling.

[Nathan King]

But isn't he still broke?

[Narrator]

He's broker than he ever has been. He doesn't have the money to go to Europe. He finances the trip by getting cash advances on his credit card. He and his family have a great time, but when he returns home, he's eight grand in debt. Can you imagine? Eight grand back then is a fortune. He goes straight to his agent's office in hopes that she can, as he would later write, pull a slick magazine assignment out of her sleeve and bail him out. Instead, she informs him that Putnam, his publisher, has offered money for the paperback rights to the Godfather. And Mario goes, how much? And she goes, $375,000.

[Nathan King]

Wow. Even now, that's a really good offer. So does he take it?

[Narrator]

Well, he doesn't believe it. He says this must be some kind of Madison Avenue. Come on. He thinks they're joking. After all, the biggest advance up to that point for paperback rights had been 400,000. So Candida Donatio, his agent picks up the phone, calls his editor at Putlem, Bill Targ, and the editor says the amount is not correct. The offer had already gone up to 400,000.

[Nathan King]

Wow.

[Narrator]

And when the dust had settled and the deal was done, Mario Puzo had sold the paperback rights to the Godfather for $410,000, setting a new record.

[Nathan King]

Does he get that all at once?

[Narrator]

Of course not. They give him $100,000 and he takes it to the bank, where he said the teller had always, you know, looked at him in askance when he needed money or, you know, cashed his little checks, and he showed him the hundred thousand dollars check just to watch him grovel. He said he quit his job at magazine management and he went home and promptly spent the 100,000. And he was back at his publisher. She a few months later, saying, could you give me another hundred? And they said, mario, we just gave you 100,000. And he said, 100 grand doesn't last forever.

[Nathan King]

Well, broke or not, the Godfather was published on March 10, 1969, and it shot to the top of the bestseller list.

[Narrator]

Absolutely. It was an instant success.

[Nathan King]

But Puzo is sort of the most critical about the lack of artistic merit in the Godfather. It's not as good as the preceding two novels. He said, I wrote it to make money.

[Narrator]

Yeah. Puzo said if he knew it was going to be such a hit, he would have written it a lot better. But the Godfather was a sensation. The reviews were ecstatic. Even the New York Times gave it a rave. Puzo, all of a sudden this nobody writer begins living very large. He's a superstar on his way to becoming one of the best selling writers in the world. He's on the Today show, he's being courted in restaurants. All of a sudden, champagne would appear at his table from a certain interested party across the room, which were made men who felt sure that he would have some kind of insight, information, or maybe he was a made man himself. He became a superstar. The book spent 67 weeks on the bestseller list.

[Nathan King]

Miraculously, his vow in the gutter to become rich and famous had suddenly become true.

[Narrator]

And in Hollywood, too, all of a sudden, Bob Evans remembered the dead broke writer who appeared in his office with those 35 pages under his arm and.

[Mark Seal]

The book came out and it became the biggest book of the decade.

[Narrator]

The only problem, the distribution department at Paramount didn't want to make the movie.

[Mark Seal]

Nobody wanted to make it. As a matter of fact, Paramount refused to make it for a while. They said mafia films don't. We did the Brotherhood two years ago. It failed. We're not going to make this.

[Narrator]

Apparently the studio told Evans that the only way it could be made was if he could do it for under $2 million. So Evans turned to a producer at Paramount who is known for getting stuff made on the cheap, the soon to be legendary Al Ruddy.

[Mark Seal]

I get a call one time, do.

[Narrator]

I want to produce the Godfather? I thought it was a joke.

[Mark Seal]

Yeah, of course.

[Narrator]

My favorite book. I never read it.

[Mark Seal]

He's ready.

[Narrator]

Anthony New York to meet Charlie Boudoir. So I go to New York. I read the book on the plane. I fell in love. Leave the Gun Take the Cannoli is a production of Air Mail and iheartmedia.

[Nathan King]

The podcast is based on the book of the same name written by our very own Mark Seal.

[Narrator]

Our producer is Tina Mullen.

[Nathan King]

Research assistants by Jack Sullivan.

[Narrator]

Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.

[Nathan King]

Our music supervisor is Randall Poster. Our executive producers are me, Nathan King, Mark Zeal, Dylan Fagan and Graydon Carter.

[Narrator]

Special thanks to Bridget Arseneaux and everyone at CDM Studios.

[Nathan King]

A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found in Mark Seals book Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call.

[Narrator]

Home, and the causes we hold in our hearts.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

At Thrivent, we help plan your financial.

[Narrator]

Picture with the bigger picture in mind.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Because even though our business is helping.

[Narrator]

Guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more.

[Greenlight Advertiser]

Thrivent, where money means more.

[Narrator]

Connect with [e-mail] Amazon One Medical presents Painful Thoughts do they ever actually clean the ball pit at these kids play gyms? Or is my kid just swimming in a vat of bacteria, catching whatever cootie of the day is breeding in there? A cootie that'll probably take down our whole family. Luckily, with Amazon One Medical 24. 7 Virtual Care, you can get checked out for whatever ball pittitis you've contracted. Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Dime Beauty Advertiser]

It's tax season, and by now I know we're all a bit tired of numbers. But here's an important one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft related to tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all grim news. Here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it, backed by another good number, the Million Dollar Protection Plan. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the Now It Pays to Discover. Learn more at discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.