The Cast that Dreams Are Made Of

Summary

Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli: Episode Summary - "The Cast that Dreams Are Made Of"

Host/Author: Mark Seal and Nathan King
Release Date: March 19, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Cast that Dreams Are Made Of" from the Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli podcast, authors Mark Seal and Nathan King delve deep into the tumultuous casting process behind Francis Ford Coppola's iconic film, "The Godfather." Drawing from Mark Seal's 2021 book of the same name, the hosts present a compelling narrative enriched with new and archival interviews, shedding light on the chaos and intrigue that almost derailed the making of a cinematic masterpiece.

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The Initial Chaos of Casting

The journey to casting "The Godfather" was fraught with external pressures and internal disagreements. Al Ruddy, the producer, found himself overwhelmed with inquiries from actors, agents, and even real-life mobsters eager to secure roles in the film. As Ruddy recounts:

Mark Seale [00:35:12]: People were vying for roles in the movie that had their own opinions. "How should the parts be played?" was a common refrain.

The studio executives, particularly Robert Evans, added fuel to the fire by publicly advocating for Italian American actors, intensifying the competition and leading to picketers outside Paramount. The casting director, Fred Roos, emphasized the sheer volume of talent:

Fred Roos [03:09]: "Everybody was reading the Godfather, and of course, everybody wanted to know who was going to play which role. And so it became a really big deal, the casting of the Godfather."

---

Introducing Fred Roos and the Casting Strategy

Francis Ford Coppola's decision to hire Fred Roos as the casting director marked a pivotal moment in the casting saga. Despite having fewer credits at the time, Roos brought a meticulous approach to the process:

Al Ruddy [06:10]: "He was willing to go deep into the casting process, not try to do shortcuts or do it quickly or whatever. So that was cool with me because that's how you get quality."

The duo embarked on an exhaustive search, screening over 1,100 actors across New York, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. This rigorous process was essential in assembling what would become one of Hollywood's most legendary ensembles.

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The Unconventional Casting of Gianni Russo

One of the standout stories from the podcast revolves around Gianni Russo's unexpected casting as Carlo Rizzi. Russo's background as a messenger for mob boss Frank Costello added an authentic layer to his portrayal:

Gianni Russo [08:42]: "Gianni survived polio as a child and used it to his advantage. He had a 'gimp arm' and started selling ballpoint pens as a 12-year-old, which led to his connection with Costello."

Russo's determined effort to land a role is highlighted by his creative screen test:

Gianni Russo [10:56]: "I made a 37-minute screen test, improvising scenes for Michael, Sonny, and Carlo."

Despite initial rejection, Russo's persistence paid off when connections within the industry facilitated his audition, culminating in his memorable performance as Carlo.

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Marlon Brando's Iconic Screen Test

Perhaps the most legendary aspect of the casting process was Marlon Brando's involvement. Initially opposed by Paramount executives, Coppola's relentless pursuit ensured Brando's participation under stringent conditions:

Francis Ford Coppola [21:04]: "As the president of Paramount, there's no way that Marlon Brando will play this role."

Undeterred, Coppola orchestrated a clandestine screen test in Los Angeles, transforming Brando into the formidable Vito Corleone:

Dean Tavoularis [23:03]: "He walked out and put on a jacket, picked up a cigar, and transformed into Don Vito Corleone right there in that room."

The success of this screen test swayed executives, solidifying Brando's role and setting the stage for the film's legendary status.

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Executive Resistance and Coppola's Defiance

Despite securing key cast members like Brando, Coppola faced significant pushback from Robert Evans and other Paramount executives. Evans initially dismissed Al Pacino, labeling him a "runt" and advocating for established stars like Robert Redford:

Robert Evans [28:21]: "Michael Corleone will not be played by Al Pacino."

Coppola, sensing his impending dismissal, strategically delayed decisions and continued to champion his original vision. This tension culminated in a critical negotiation where Coppola successfully maneuvered to retain his preferred cast:

Fred Roos [38:12]: "We convinced them to switch James Caan to Sonny and allow Al Pacino as Michael."

This strategic compromise ensured that Coppola's artistic choices prevailed, leading to the assembly of the film's iconic cast.

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Finalizing the Ensemble

With the main roles secured, Coppola and Roos focused on filling out the supporting cast with both established actors and talented newcomers. Notable additions included:

• John Cazale as Fredo Corleone, discovered during an open casting call and lauded for his authentic portrayal.
• Talia Shire as Connie Corleone, bringing familial ties into the production despite initial concerns of nepotism.

These casting decisions, combined with Coppola's unwavering dedication, resulted in a cohesive and unforgettable ensemble that would define "The Godfather" as a masterpiece.

---

Conclusion

"The Cast that Dreams Are Made Of" provides an in-depth exploration of the intricate and often chaotic casting process behind "The Godfather." Through engaging narratives and firsthand accounts, Mark Seal and Nathan King illuminate the perseverance, strategic maneuvering, and sheer passion that ultimately brought together a legendary cast. This episode not only celebrates the film's enduring legacy but also underscores the intricate dynamics of filmmaking where vision battles with executive mandates, ultimately showcasing how true artistry can triumph against all odds.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Fred Roos [03:09]: "Everybody was reading the Godfather, and of course, everybody wanted to know who was going to play which role. And so it became a really big deal, the casting of the Godfather."
• Gianni Russo [08:42]: "Gianni survived polio as a child and used it to his advantage. He had a 'gimp arm' and started selling ballpoint pens as a 12-year-old, which led to his connection with Costello."
• Al Ruddy [06:10]: "He was willing to go deep into the casting process, not try to do shortcuts or do it quickly or whatever. So that was cool with me because that's how you get quality."
• Francis Ford Coppola [21:04]: "As the president of Paramount, there's no way that Marlon Brando will play this role."
• Dean Tavoularis [23:03]: "He walked out and put on a jacket, picked up a cigar, and transformed into Don Vito Corleone right there in that room."
• Robert Evans [28:21]: "Michael Corleone will not be played by Al Pacino."

---

Acknowledgments

This episode features excerpts from Francis Ford Coppola's 2001 DVD commentary on "The Godfather" and references Mark Seal's book Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster. Special thanks to Bridget Arseneault and the team at CDM Studios for their contributions.

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Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli is a production of Air Mail and iHeartMedia, dedicated to uncovering the untold stories behind some of cinema's most celebrated works.

Transcript

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Someday I will call upon you to.

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Do a service for me. Play the Godfather [e-mail] Welcome to the family. No purchase necessary. VGW Group void we're prohibited. Law 21 + terms and conditions apply. Al Ruddy is besieged with phone calls from actors, agents, shop clerks and Hollywood extras. Big names and unknowns alike are vying for roles in the Godfather. Everyone who would read the book had their own opinion. Who should be the part if people are not in the business, People stumbling on the street. You know, I have an idea for Michael. He ought to use Escape. Jimmy Gunn. Everyone had an opinion. He did it to himself. He told the Hollywood Reporter that no part will be played by any actor who has an instantly recognizable face. Well of course, a producer always has an ulterior motive, and that motive is usually money. Unknowns are cheaper than stars. And the Godfather, of course, is on a shoestring budget. Robert Evans poured gas on the flames when he announced in a press conference that there was, quote, a good chance that they would cast Italian American actors. Paramount starts getting letters from across the country. Italian Americans with Hollywood dreams feel that they're owed a part.

[Fred Roos]

I mean, everybody was reading the Godfather, and of course, everybody wanted to know who was going to play which role. And so it became a really big deal, the casting of the Godfather.

[Mark Seale]

Things reach a fevered pitch when picketers assemble outside of the gates of Paramount, determined to ensure that Paramount made good on their commitment. Their signs read Italian Actors for Italian Roles. And worlds collide as shady characters make their Hollywood dreams known.

[DSW]

My attention, that he should be in the picture. It's important to his.

[Mark Seale]

Important to who?

[DSW]

It's important to friends downtown.

[Mark Seale]

To friends downtown.

[DSW]

Yeah.

[Mark Seale]

And so the circus begins, bringing together one of the most iconic casts in Hollywood history.

[Fred Roos]

Marc?

[Mark Seale]

I'm Mark Seale.

[Gianni Russo]

And I'm Nathan King.

[Mark Seale]

And this is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli.

[Gianni Russo]

This episode, we're casting the Godfather with the mob family we know and love.

[Mark Seale]

From New York to LA and up to San Francisco, the excruciating casting process somehow produces a perfect ensemble.

[Gianni Russo]

Mark, casting the Godfather with all the stars we now know and love seems like an impossible feat.

[Mark Seale]

Yes, it seems impossible now, doesn't it? But remember, stars were born from the Godfather. Most of them weren't even known before.

[Gianni Russo]

So casting begins rather chaotically with big names, unknowns, and even mobsters all vying for parts in the movie. And people are taking every possible avenue to gain audience with anyone connected to the film.

[Mark Seale]

That's right, Nathan. Even poor Mario Puzo, who had next to no say on casting, was getting besieged with phone calls and telegrams. And shockingly, three men dressed in 1940s mob attire show up at his office one day asking for Puzo. Al Ruddy's assistant had to scare them off with a prop gun.

[Gianni Russo]

And isn't there a story about a casting director getting sent to dead fish?

[Mark Seale]

I think that was in New York. Lou Geimo, who told me that he would interview all the extras. And there were so many people that wanted to be in the movie that someone sent a dead fish, which, like a scene out of the book and later in the movie to impress upon the studio that they knew the way things worked.

[Gianni Russo]

So if all this is happening behind the scenes, when does the official casting process begin.

[Mark Seale]

Things really got going when Coppola joined the film. He was so determined to assert control over the casting process just as he had over the script. So he hires Fred Roos as casting director. The two had never met in person, but Coppola liked his reputation and frequently called him up to chat about actors.

[Al Ruddy]

Before I ever met him, a person would call me up from time to time on the phone. Just cold call me and just want to schmooze about actors. What do I think of so and so? These were just long kind of phone conversations that didn't have any end result or any point to them other than two guys schmoozing.

[Mark Seale]

Fred Roos is now a Hollywood legend, of course, but back then he had fewer credits to his name. However, he had worked with Jack Nicholson on the classic film Five Easy Pieces, and he had cast Tulane Blacktop, starring James Taylor and the Beach Boys drummer Dennis Wilson.

[Al Ruddy]

One day he called and says, they've hired me to do this book, this Godfather book, which is a big best seller. I guess I'm going to do it. I mean, he didn't talk out of, like he had been hired to do a great piece of literature.

[Mark Seale]

Right.

[Al Ruddy]

But I think, you know, do something with it. And would you like to cast it for me? With me?

[Mark Seale]

Right?

[Al Ruddy]

I said, yeah, you know, great. So get over here and, you know, make your deal and let's go to work.

[Mark Seale]

Coppola gave Ruse a mandate. As many Italian Americans in Italian American roles as as possible.

[Al Ruddy]

His theory was that if you grew up in an Italian household, Italian American, there are certain behavioral characteristics that are just ingrained in you.

[Mark Seale]

Rus and Coppola kicked off casting in the Gulf and Western Building on November 20, 1970. They saw 600 actors and then moved on to LA to see 500 more.

[Al Ruddy]

He was willing to go deep into casting process, not try to do shortcuts or do it quickly or whatever. So that was cool with me because that's how you get quality.

[Gianni Russo]

So Coppola and Fred Roos are going deep. Is that how they found the legendary Gianni Russo?

[Mark Seale]

Well, not at all. Gianni Russo played the Godfather's fiery son in law, Carlo Rizzi, and probably has the best casting story. He was also one of my favorite people to interview.

[DSW]

No, I'm saying when you heard the terminology, crime don't pay. Yeah, coin pace.

[Mark Seale]

We met at St. Patrick's Cathedral, and from there we went all around New York. We shopped for suits, we went to lunch, and somewhere along the way, somebody was serving champagne Gina, have some more champagne, sweetheart.

[Fred Roos]

Yeah, I want to grab mine, grab some cheese.

[DSW]

That's a play.

[Mark Seale]

What are we doing?

[Gianni Russo]

Gianni is one of those people who just jumps out at you as a true character. What's his story? Where did he come from?

[Mark Seale]

Russo survived polio as a child and he told me that like everything else, he used it to his advantage. He had, as he described it, a gimp arm. And as a 12 year old he started selling ballpoint pens outside of the Sherry Netherland Hotel on fifth Avenue in New York City.

[DSW]

I picked the best corner selling pins, you know, Plaza across the street, the Chevy Netherlands, the Pierre. I'm right there on that corner with my gimp bomb. And I used to even make it a lot worse. And I had a cigar box selling these new ballpoint pens and somebody would give me 50 cents. They were 15 cents. And that's how I met Costello.

[Mark Seale]

Every day mob boss Frank Costello would walk by and give Gianni a five dollar bill. And one day he stopped by to talk to Gianni.

[DSW]

He says to me, what's your name? I said, gianni. He says, well, what's your listening? What's your heritage? I said, I'm attired. He's here's $100. Tomorrow meet me at the Waldorf at 11 o'clock in the morning, okay? Where he's just being a lobby. And from that day I was with him every day.

[Gianni Russo]

Do you have any sense of what he was doing for Frank Costello?

[Mark Seale]

Everything apparently. He told me that he was a messenger delivering duffel bags and shoeboxes which might have contained cash around the world.

[DSW]

They trusted me. They said, here, take this there. I take it no matter how, where it got there. I used to go to Switzerland once a month with a nine and a half Gucci shoebox. And I'd take the plane out of here, land, and most of the time I was on the same plane going back. I get off, go to the bank, put the money in, go back and go to sleep, I guess.

[Gianni Russo]

How did Russo hear about the film in the first place?

[Mark Seale]

Well, he'd heard of the book, of course. And then of course because of Al Ruddy and Bob Evans press antics, he heard they were casting unknowns. So Gianni, who apparently had always wanted to be an actor, set about making a 37 minute screen test.

[DSW]

And in the beginning of it it was me natural. I said, hi, I'm Johnny Russo. I know you don't know me, but I know you're making the movie the Godfather. And he is the characters I can play.

[Mark Seale]

He made up his own lines and commissioned a film crew to film and edit him auditioning for three roles. Michael, Sonny, and, of course, Carlo. Did you do any costumes?

[DSW]

I did. I mean, I did all the makeup.

[Mark Seale]

Did.

[DSW]

I mean, I didn't know what a screen test was. I played the scene for Michael when he was upstairs in the room with Kay and he goes down to get the newspaper. You know, improvised.

[Gianni Russo]

He could have carried all three of those roles at the same time. With the amount of personality he has.

[Mark Seale]

Yeah, I think so. He's one of a kind. Gianni Russo is one of a kind, that's for sure. And he just. He was great as Carlo.

[Gianni Russo]

So how does he get his screen test in front of the right people?

[Mark Seale]

Well, he found out that Al Ruddy apparently liked flashy cars and, of course, beautiful women. So he hired a showgirl from the chorus of the Tropicana, put her behind the wheel of his Bentley, and sent her to deliver his screen test to Al Ruddy personally.

[DSW]

I told the girls, you gotta give this to Al Ruddy. Nobody else? Nobody Al Ruddy. Hand delivered. I want a note back. Okay.

[Gianni Russo]

So what happened to the tape?

[Mark Seale]

Apparently, it sat there for a few days, and Russo got a rejection letter that read, the budget for this movie necessitates that we get proven talent for the major roles as a draw.

[DSW]

Now my balls are in an uproar because I spent thousands of dollars on the shit.

[Mark Seale]

Now your balls are in an uproar. I like that.

[Gianni Russo]

Well, we know he ends up being in the movie. So what did he do to get the part?

[Mark Seale]

Apparently, he was able to work some connections to get an audition for the Plum role of Carlo.

[DSW]

Charlie Bulldog had a lot of good friends, so I had some people call him and say, this guy's a very close friend of us.

[Mark Seale]

And here's how Robert Evans described it.

[DSW]

Really brought my attention that he should be in the picture as important as he is.

[Mark Seale]

Important to who?

[DSW]

It's important to friends downtown.

[Mark Seale]

To friends downtown.

[DSW]

Yeah.

[Mark Seale]

And according to Gianni gets invited to audition for a group of Paramount execs at the Gulf and Western building, and lo and behold, he lands a gig. So what happened?

[DSW]

I went right to the union and got signed as Carlo, the character. $17,500 for the movie.

[Gianni Russo]

What happened in the audition?

[Mark Seale]

You know, he plays a pivotal scene, and he just acts it out so perfectly and so compelling that I think Bob Evans says, stop, stop. You got the job. You know, he was born to play this guy. He was born to play this errant son in law Carlo.

[DSW]

That was it. It was in a movie obviously.

[Gianni Russo]

And he gives an amazing performance.

[Mark Seale]

He does. His role as Carlo is a barn burner.

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[Nathan King]

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[Gianni Russo]

Gianni wasn't the only cast member who had some underworld connections, right?

[Mark Seale]

That's right. Al Lethierry, who played Virgil the Turk Solazzo, was the brother in law of a member of the Genovese crime family. And Al Martino, who played the Sinatra inspired singer Johnny Fontaine, apparently used a connection to crime boss Russ Bufalino to snag the part, which is the same.

[Gianni Russo]

Thing his character Johnny Fontaine does in the movie. Another instance of life imitating art in the Godfather.

[Mark Seale]

Exactly. He was a fantastic choice. They wanted Vic Damone first. And apparently there's some controversy on what happened. Nobody seems to agree on why Vic Damone didn't want the role or turned down the role if he did turn down the role. Which left the door open for Al Martino. Al Martino? Yeah.

[Gianni Russo]

What was Al Martino's background?

[Mark Seale]

He was a very popular nightclub singer in those days. And at the time, many nightclubs where Al Martino performed had connections to the mob. He told me this. I interviewed him at Nate Now's delicatessen in Beverly Hills in 2007, and he told me how well he knew this world and how well he knew these people from Vegas all the way to New York City. And Martino had an excellent singing voice and speaking voice, and he really knew how to carry himself, which made him so believable as Johnny Fontaine, despite the fact that he wasn't really an actor. And it Was a bit of an adjustment for Al, especially in the scene where Johnny Fontaine is in the Godfather's office talking about that producer who won't give him the role in that hit movie. And he breaks down crying and Brando slaps him. I don't know what to do.

[DSW]

I don't know what to do. You can act like a man.

[Mark Seale]

What's the matter with you? Is this how you turn down a Hollywood Pinocchio that cries like a woman? That slap wasn't scripted. And according to the folklore of the movie, that slap really rattled Al Martino, because nobody hits Al Martino. He was a really, really nice man when I interviewed him, but also, I can imagine that he was a pretty toug at the same time.

[Gianni Russo]

So many of the smaller parts were taken by these relative unknowns. But Coppola knew who he wanted for the bigger parts in the film.

[Mark Seale]

Exactly. He had his list written on lined yellow paper with asterisks next to his top choices. Al Pacino as Michael James, can as Sonny and Robert Duvall as Tom Hagen.

[Gianni Russo]

And of course, Marlon Brando as the Godfather.

[Mark Seale]

Well, it was originally Puzo who wanted Brando. He even wrote him a letter before Coppola came on board asking him to the role. But the execs were so opposed that he basically dropped it. This is how Betty McCart, Al Ruddy's assistant, remembers it. Stanley Jaffe was the president of Paramount.

[Fred Roos]

And he said, as long as I'm.

[Mark Seale]

President of Paramount, there's no way that Marlon Brando will play this role.

[Gianni Russo]

Bacopola got on board with Brando when he joined.

[Mark Seale]

Yes. He was torn between Brando and Lawrence Olivier, but ultimately decided that Brando was the right choice.

[Gianni Russo]

Well, we know the executives are against it. What does Brando think?

[Mark Seale]

Well, Brando was in bad shape at the time. He was deep in debt, supposedly addicted to Valium, headed toward his third divorce, and determined never to work as an actor again. It was his assistant, Alice Marshak, who convinced him to even consider acting again so that he could pay off some of his debts.

[Gianni Russo]

Wow. So I guess we can assume that Coppola pursued Brando despite the studio being against it.

[Mark Seale]

Yes. In traditional Coppola fashion, he moved forward defiantly. Coppola described in an interview a meeting he had with a Paramount exec basically ganged up on him.

[J]

I remember in one meeting, I was told by the then president of Paramount, said to me, as president of Paramount Pictures, I am telling you that Marlon Brando will not appear in this motion picture.

[Gianni Russo]

How'd he take that.

[Mark Seale]

Well, apparently not. Well, he stared down Stanley Jaffe, then the president of Paramount, and said, I give up. You guys hired me. I'm supposed to be the director. Every idea you have, you don't want me to talk about. Now you're instructing me that I can't even pursue the idea. At least let me pursue it.

[Gianni Russo]

And what did Jaffe say?

[Mark Seale]

Will he set up Coppola for what he thought was an impossible task?

[J]

So I continued talking and arguing, and finally they agreed to let me discuss the idea of Marlon Brando being in the movie if I honored three stipulations. A, he would do a screen test. B, he would do the film for free, and C, he would put up a bond so that if any of his shenanigans or any trouble came from him being on the set, that it would guarantee the losses.

[Gianni Russo]

So Coppola presses on. What's his next order of business?

[Mark Seale]

Well, he has to somehow do a screen test with the great Marlon Brando without calling it that. Here's Fred Roos.

[Al Ruddy]

The word screen test was never mentioned to Marlon. He was Marlon Brando. I mean, he is in a dip in his career at that point, but he was still the iconic actor. So you don't just audition him. So Francis did it under the guise of, let's experiment for your own sake, not just for me, to prove anything to me, for your own sake, on how you would change yourself over to become this older man that you know, quite a bit older than you are.

[Gianni Russo]

And did it work?

[Mark Seale]

It worked great. Coppola had no idea, but Brando had been preparing. He got to his house up in Mulholland Drive, and right there in front of his eyes, Marlon Brando transformed into Vito Corleone.

[J]

He walked out and he put on a jacket, and he picked up a cigar, and he started to gesture with it and use it as a prop. And he rolled up the ponytail, and he kind of pinned it up. And he took some shoe polish and he darkened it. And while he's doing this, we're photographing. Then he took some tissue paper, and he said he should have the face of a bulldog. And he stuffed the tissue paper in his jaw. And then he said, well, if he shot in the throat, he ought to.

[DSW]

Have a talk like that a little bit.

[Mark Seale]

He became Don Vito Corleone right there in that room. And Coppola was amazed and astonished.

[Gianni Russo]

So the screen test or not a screen test is a success. What's next?

[Mark Seale]

Well, Coppola decides he's going to take the tape. Not to Evans and Jaffe, the executives in la. He's gonna go straight to the top and take it to Hurricane Charlie Bludorn, who, by the way, was just as opposed to Brando as everybody else. So Coppola flies to New York and sets up in an office in the Gulf and Western building with the tape playing on a monitor and waits for Bludorn to walk by. And here's how Dean Tavoularis remembers it. Mr. Blutorn, walking down the corridor, could kind of look into offices. And that's when we saw Marlon on the monitor, said, who is that? He said, this is the Godfather. Who is that actor? Who is that man? And Francis said, the man. I'm not supposed to mention Marlon Brando.

[Gianni Russo]

And that worked.

[Mark Seale]

It sure did. Charlie was as amazed by Brando's transformation as Coppola.

[J]

And Charlie just looks astounded. And he says, that's incredible. That's incredible.

[Mark Seale]

And soon everybody else, of course, agreed. Evans, Bart, Jaffe, they offered Brando the role, and the rest is history.

[Gianni Russo]

What happened to that tape?

[Mark Seale]

No one knows. It's lost to history. You know, it's like something out of the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Maybe it's in a warehouse somewhere. Nobody seems to know where it is, but I really hope it surfaces one day because it's one piece of film I would love to see foreign.

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[Gianni Russo]

Ch ch ch.

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[Gianni Russo]

So let's get into the rest of the Corleone family. We know Coppola is pretty set on who he wants, but Evans is not sold on Pacino, is he?

[Mark Seale]

Not at all. Early on, Evans and the other executives met with Coppola to discuss casting and they all had very, very different ideas. And who did they suggest as Michael? The blond haired, blue eyed Robert Redford.

[Gianni Russo]

Robert Redford is about as unitalian as it gets. What happened to Italian actors for Italian roles?

[Mark Seale]

They said Sicilians can be blonde. So let's get Redford.

[Gianni Russo]

And what was their reaction to Pacino?

[Mark Seale]

They'd never heard of him. Coplin knew him from plays in New York. But to Evans, he was a 5 foot 7 inch ront, to use this term, a runt. That's what Evans called him. He said, michael Corleone will not be played by Al Pacino.

[Gianni Russo]

So what did Coppola do?

[Mark Seale]

Well, he stalled. He said he would go out looking for more young actors to come back with. But he already had a plan in place. Coppola had summoned Al Pacino, James Caan, Robert Duvall and Diane Keaton to the American Zoetrope studios in San Francisco.

[Gianni Russo]

His dream cast from his original list.

[Mark Seale]

Yes. His plan was to shoot tests of the four actors in absolute secrecy and then use the test to convince the suits at Paramount that he knew best on who to cast for his movie. And here's James can talking about that.

[DSW]

We flew up to Zoetrope in San Francisco and his wife Eleanor gave us a haircut with a ball on her head. Like, you know, just put the ball on her head and clipped our hair. And we did on 16 millimeters.

[Gianni Russo]

And what was that like?

[Mark Seale]

Well, the tests are just great. You can clearly see them now, and you can see the burgeoning stardom in each person. Al Pacino is the scruffy and struggling theater actor who comes to life as Michael, the college boy. James can, who is Coppola's friend from the Hofstra University theater department, is the powerfully built hair triggered Sonny Robert Duvall, the perpetually calm Irish Catholic lawyer Tom Hagen, and perhaps strangest of all, the somewhat kooky, as they called her back then, Diane Keaton as Michael's upper crust girlfriend, Kay Adams.

[DSW]

So basically what I'm saying is, for the price of four corned beef sandwiches, we had lunch, you know, and we shot the 16 millimeter improvisation and just screwing around flew home. And that was it. That was the cast.

[Gianni Russo]

And did it work? What did the executives think of the screen tests?

[Mark Seale]

Well, they hated him. They didn't like them at all. They thought, well, Charlie Blutorm summed it up when he said, they can't all be bad actors. It must be bad directing. And to make matters worse, they were upset that Coppola had spent money on this, which turned out to be, as James Caan said, the price of four corned beef sandwiches for lunch. Coppola was sure they were going to fire him, which would become a theme for his time on the Godfather. He was so discouraged that he basically fell in line and agrees to test everyone. Paramount wants to test people like Martin Sheen, Dean Stockwell, and Ryan O'Neill. For Michael, they Spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on these screen tests.

[Gianni Russo]

Wow, that must have been so demoralizing for Coppola. He had his stars.

[Mark Seale]

Exactly. It was a real disaster. Not long after, Coppola moved his entire operation, including his family, to New York to continue the screen test frenzy. And to make matters worse, he's broke.

[Gianni Russo]

Didn't he get paid by paramount?

[Mark Seale]

Well, his 175,000 upfront fee went toward his debts, but the bills for American Zoetrope were piling up and his wife is pregnant, of course, with their daughter, Sophia Coppola.

[Gianni Russo]

Not an ideal time to move to New York City.

[Mark Seale]

No, but luckily his brother in law has a vacant studio apartment on the Upper west side where the family can live. It was cramped and Coppola said it was like living like an impoverished Italian American family. Which I'm sure gave him some inspiration for the film.

[Gianni Russo]

All while screen testing everyone under the sun.

[Mark Seale]

Yes, he's got his team by his side, which in addition to Fred Roos, now includes Lou Dgimo, who cast the extras, and Paramount's casting director, Andrea Eastman. Here's Andrea.

[Fred Roos]

You know, at first, Francis had so many problems with Paramount. I don't think I was really trusted right away because I worked for Paramount, but I never repeated it, anything that was ever said. And so they learned to trust me and we all kind of became a big family.

[Mark Seale]

The team worked seven days a week doing these screen tests.

[Fred Roos]

So it just, it was endless. It went on and on and on. The casting process was forever and everyone.

[Mark Seale]

Knew it was a sham. Coppola begrudgingly running these screen tests with no intention of pushing for anyone other than who he already wanted. And Evans watching the tapes the next day from the Gulf and Western building or back in his office in Los.

[Gianni Russo]

Angeles like a puppet master pulling the strings.

[Mark Seale]

And it would soon be full out war. Coppola and Evans each had their own vision for the movie, but neither really had ultimate authority. That is, until Evans decided to take control.

[Gianni Russo]

In what way?

[Mark Seale]

He goes to the press with somewhat of a manifesto to taking control. Control from directors. As a Variety headline from those days read, cut Directors down to size.

[Gianni Russo]

Ouch.

[Mark Seale]

Coppola was furious, of course. He dug in his heels and kept going with the endless screen test with the role of Michael being the most hotly contested.

[Fred Roos]

Al Pacino wasn't known then and he wasn't very good. We decided to test Jimmy Khan for Michael. So the tests were in New York and I remember it was a scene at the wedding which is, you know, there it's A very talky scene. There's not a lot of action. And again, Al just wasn't good in the test. He just was not. You didn't imagine him as Michael Croleo, but Jimmy Khan was fabulous.

[Gianni Russo]

Does Coppola ever sway from Pacino?

[Mark Seale]

No, he really doesn't. But there does come a point where he just wants. It vanished.

[Fred Roos]

So this is going on and on and on. And Francis just got so sick of everything. He goes, I'm going to Sicily. Just cast my fucking movie. Excuse my language.

[Mark Seale]

At this point, Pacino is tested for the part a dozen times.

[Gianni Russo]

So Coppola takes off with the role of Michael being left uncast. What decisions are being made in the meantime?

[Mark Seale]

Well, Diane Keaton finally gets cast as Kay Adams after about 100 screen tests. Richard Castellano is a slam dunk as Clemenza. And Salvatore Tessio goes to Abe Vigoda, who's discovered during an open casting call. And don't forget about Fredo. Fred Roos discovered the great John Cazale, the actor who would so memorably play Fredo.

[Al Ruddy]

I got invited by an old friend of mine, Richard Dreyfuss, to come see him in a play. I went to this play, and Richard, of course, was good and all that, but there was this guy in it, John Cassel, who I didn't know, hadn't even heard of him before. But I could see he was wonderful. And he had all the qualities of Alfredo. And he was Italian American. And I remember the next day, Francis, I found Fredo.

[Gianni Russo]

What about Talia Shire, Frances sister, who ends up playing Connie?

[Mark Seale]

Well, it was a controversial pick, with some of the cast crying nepotism. But at this point, Francis thought he was getting fired anyway, so he got his sister an audition.

[Fred Roos]

I didn't know about the politics of, you know what I'm gonna say, Filmmaking and how it could be that dicey. I honestly didn't know that much about it. I simply just wanted an audition. I had been more the theater person. I didn't know how to hit a mark. I didn't know what a mark was. So I was the last person you should want on your movie. But I just thought, hey, can I have an audition?

[Gianni Russo]

And Evans liked her.

[Mark Seale]

He did. He saw something in her that I think Coppola didn't even see himself. Michael, you lousy bastard. You killed my husband. You waited until Papa died so nobody could stop you.

[Fred Roos]

And then you killed him. You blamed him for Sonny. You always did.

[Mark Seale]

Everybody did. But you never thought about me. You never gave a damn about me.

[Gianni Russo]

Okay, how far are we from shooting now with no Michael?

[Mark Seale]

We're only a month away. And Paramount finally makes the decision. They land on Coppola's friend James Caan as Michael and the 6 foot 4 Carmine Caridi as Sonny.

[Gianni Russo]

That doesn't sound right.

[Mark Seale]

No. But after being told that he'd landed the part of Sonny, Caridi was already partying.

[DSW]

He was running around with some guys. Some friends of mine was celebrating, you know, and I said, hey, don't do this.

[Mark Seale]

He.

[DSW]

They're very shaky up there. You can have a hard fall if it doesn't work out.

[Gianni Russo]

So what happened?

[Mark Seale]

Coppola takes off again to meet with Marlon Brando in London. And at that point, he felt the decision had been made to cast James Caan as Michael. But while he's gone, everything changes.

[Fred Roos]

So I have my stuff clipped out for Jimmy, and we ran Panic in Needle park, and Al Pacino, like, jumped off the screen. He was fantastic. I mean, he was great, which is how he wound up getting Michael.

[Mark Seale]

And Paramount's casting director, Andrea Eastman, saw it as an opening to push for Coppola's original vision.

[Fred Roos]

So we're sitting there in the screening room, and so now it's going to be Al Pacino as Michael. Jimmy Khan is not in the movie. And Carmine Carini, which was ludicrous because you met Carmine Carini, he was about six.

[Mark Seale]

Six.

[Fred Roos]

He kind of was like a Saint Bernard. And Charlie, for the first time ever, had yelled at me before this conversation. He goes, we have this. This little pipsqueak playing Michael and this big guy, you know, Carmine Carini. It's just. It doesn't work. And he's right. It didn't work. So I said, well, you know, why don't we go back the way Frances wanted it? Al Pacino as Michael, Jimmy Khan as Sonny. And Bob said, no, actually, she's right. That's because you believe that they could be brothers.

[Mark Seale]

And so the deal was made that Coppola could have Pacino as Michael if he would move James Caan over to play Sonny. And that's what Coppola wanted all along. So the cast was set, and he had the actors that he wanted from the beginning.

[Gianni Russo]

So we end up with the exact cast that Coppola did those secret screen tests with in San Francisco for $500 eight months earlier.

[Mark Seale]

Yes, but for the cool price of 420,000.

[Gianni Russo]

So smooth sailing from here, right, Mark?

[Mark Seale]

Yeah, right. Next episode, we're heading to New York, where the real war begin. Leave the gun, Take the cannoli is a production of Air Mail and iheartmedia.

[Gianni Russo]

The podcast is based on the book of the same name written by our very own Mark Seal.

[Mark Seale]

Our producer is Tina Mullen.

[Gianni Russo]

Research assistants by Jack Sullivan.

[Mark Seale]

Jonathan Dressler was our development producer.

[Gianni Russo]

Our music supervisor is Randall Poster. Our executive producers are me, Nathan King, Mark Zeal, Dylan Fagan, and Graydon Carter.

[Mark Seale]

Special thanks to Bridget Arseneault and everyone at CDM Studios.

[Gianni Russo]

Excerpts From Francis Ford Coppola's 2001 DVD commentary on the Godfather were featured in this episode. A comprehensive list of sources and acknowledgments can be found in Mark Seals book Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, published by Gallery Books, an imprint of Simon and Schuster.

[Mark Seale]

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