Loading summary
Transcript108 lines
- [00:00]
Afua Hirsch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:16]
Peter Frankopan
Hello and welcome to the second episode of our series on Charles Dickens. We left you in the last episode with Dickens and his new wife, Catherine. He's just published his first book, Sketches by Boz, and he's hard at work on his first novel.
- [00:31]
Afua Hirsch
Things are looking good for young boz. It's 1836, he's 24, in love, or so he tells himself. First child on the way, his writing's attracting attention. He is the rising star of the London literary world. Fame is coming, but so is a roller coaster ride of triumph and tragedy.
- [01:00]
Peter Frankopan
From Wondery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankopan. I'm Afua Hirsch and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:25]
Afua Hirsch
This is Charles Dickens, Episode 2 Dickens Mania.
- [01:41]
Unknown
Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Another worthwhile listen is Amy Tinterra's thrilling and twisting whodunnit. Listen for the lie. This laugh out loud funny tale follows Lucy, a woman who needs to clear her own name after a true crime podcast decides to probe into the wor night of her life, one she conveniently can't remember. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com wonderypod and discover all the year's best Waiting for you.
- [02:41]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about, you insane Hollywood? So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch $45 up.
- [03:07]
Peter Frankopan
Front payment equivalent to $15 per month.
- [03:08]
Unknown
New customers on first three month plan.
- [03:09]
Peter Frankopan
Only taxes and fees. Extra Speed slower above 40 GB. Details.
- [03:16]
Charles Dickens
Heads. Heads. Take care of your heads, cried the loquacious stranger as they came out under the low archway, which in those days formed the entrance to the coachyard. Terrible place. Dangerous work. Other day, five children. Mother, tall lady eating sandwiches. Forgot the arch. Crash, knock. Children look round. Mother's head off. Sandwiching around. No mouth to put it in. Head of a family off. Shocking. Shocking. Looking at Whitehall, sir. Fine place. Little window. Somebody else's head off there, eh, sir? He didn't keep a sharp lookout enough either. Hey, sir. Hey.
- [03:52]
Peter Frankopan
Welcome to the world of Dickens novels. That's from his first one, the Pickwick Papers, and the moment that Alfred Jingle arrives in the story.
- [04:01]
Afua Hirsch
And Alfred Jingle is a Cockney character and takes his place among the first great cast of Dickens characters, so many of whom have become embedded in our culture.
- [04:11]
Peter Frankopan
So when we left Dickens at the end of the last episode, he was on his honeymoon, busy working at all hours of the day. And the Pickwick paper starts to appear in installments, each one wrapped in pale green pa. And in 1836, after initially struggling sales, it begins to take off. And it's a huge hit eventually. And Alfred Jingle actually is one of the key people that drive that success forward.
- [04:35]
Afua Hirsch
Boz has got the town by the ear, writes one critic. And it's the comic story of Samuel Pickwick and his friends and their adventures across London and the South. And it's also where Dickens is now starting to hone in on that very distinctive writing style of his. That extract that you heard with its brisk, staccato dialogue is actually very modern, don't you think, Peter? It's not just the long sentences and pages of Bleak Description that he's also known for.
- [05:01]
Peter Frankopan
Well, he's capturing real people's voices, right? It's not just the high register of what serious literature looks like. And you have to be clever and literate to understand it. This is something that people have to say out loud. So people are going to be reading it to themselves as well as to other people. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why it catches fire. And I mean, it's quite interesting that Bose has got the town by the ear, as you mentioned, that quote by the critic, because I think that sound is so important in Dickens work.
- [05:28]
Afua Hirsch
Basically, he's like a proto. Come on, podcaster.
- [05:32]
Peter Frankopan
I knew you were gonna say that. Tell me more.
- [05:34]
Afua Hirsch
Well, he's telling stories in installments. You have to subscribe or buy each episode. It needs to be heard and performed as well as read. And people just keep coming back because they want the next installment.
- [05:45]
Peter Frankopan
It's a modest price that Dickens charges, it's just a shilling. But people start to look forward to this regular installment. And so Dickens can treat each one as a chapter on its own. And that teaches him, I think, about structure as well as everything else. But one of the things that really, I think, attracts readers is his attention that he pays to working class characters, from scoundrels to cheeky chappies. And he's constantly having to think of new, different characterizations.
- [06:10]
Afua Hirsch
He also learns about marketing because he's writing to coincide with publications at specific times of the year, Valentine's Day, he has to think about stories that meet a theme of love and how to create stories that speak to Christmas.
- [06:25]
Peter Frankopan
It's fascinating, that process of Dickens understanding marketing structure, treating writing a bit like an entrepreneur. So his installments, monthly or weekly, sometimes they're seven and a half thousand words. That's a lot of material. I suppose what's interesting is when he's writing in these installments is you either have to have a vision of the whole of where this is all going, so you've got to be meticulous in planning, or as some novelists sometimes do, they write and they let things develop organically. And that's a real skill, I think, to be able to keep adding because you're reacting to what people say and think. But while he's writing pickers, as if that isn't enough, he's also working on Oliver Twist. And so he's juggling multiple stories, plots, all of those characters. And he's really good at a deadline. You know, that's what makes a writer be productive. You know, he doesn't get worried about over perfecting things.
- [07:15]
Afua Hirsch
This is actually a skill that really comes from journalism, the ability to just work on deadline, to respond to that kind of pressure. And the thing about journalism is, you know, you might have a blank page, but you have that 5pm deadline. You better write something and you have to dig deep, you have to pull it out of somewhere. But you don't have the luxury of just sitting at the page feeling blocked. And I think that you see that in his productivity. And actually you can see his evolution even with simultaneous projects, because Oliver Twist is a much better plotted story than Pickwick. I mean, obviously it's become one of his most iconic tales. And it's also an example of something else that Dickens does, which is kind of reinventing the way the English language is written in novels. He's really trying to capture how working class Londoners speak. And that might seem quite obvious now, but at the time, that was quite.
- [08:06]
Peter Frankopan
A radical thing to do, that creativity that he has. I mean, we mentioned about Fagin and naming, and you'll remember that Fagin was the boy he sat next to in the blacking factory. It'd be like Ian Fleming, the creator, James Bond, taking the names of boys who he didn't like he'd been at school with. You know, that blurring of lines where things that you're seeing in real life you're capturing and you're working out how to include all of those. And that's a really good eye that he has for a good story. From being a reporter and from his.
- [08:32]
Afua Hirsch
Own experiences, he's already been through so much. You can see how he's almost uniquely equipped to navigate this really pressurized world of being this nascent writer. And, you know, that attention to detail, that innovation, it's really paying off. His biographer, Clare Tomalin writes, it was as though he was able to feed his story directly into the bloodstream of the nation, giving injections of laughter, pathos and melodrama, making his readers feel he was a personal friend to each of them. Dickens knew he triumphed, and this sense of a personal link between himself and his public became the most essential element in his development as a writer.
- [09:08]
Peter Frankopan
So Dickens is living life at a fast pace because he's a great socializer as well as a hard worker. And it's not just that the Pickwick Papers are a hit. They have his real name on it. So it's Charles Dickens, not Boz, who's lapping up praise and adulation coming his way. And he revels in being the man about town.
- [09:28]
Afua Hirsch
So his professional life is going great guns. But let's talk about his personal life, Peter. He is married, as we know, to Catherine. In January 1837. They welcome their first child, Charles, known as Charlie. Spoiler alert. This will not be their last child. And Catherine suffers postnatal depression after birth and refuses to eat. And I think it says something about the real connection that does exist between them at this point in the marriage, that Dickens is the only person who can really persuade her to eat and help her in that state of depression. And obviously this is a time when the phrase postnatal depression would not have been used and was poorly understood, but everyone could see that she wasn't in a good place. But of course, outward respectability remains important in this world, and from the outside perspective, all looks well with the family. They've now moved into a three story house in Bloomsbury, the largest house Dickens has ever lived in. So he's beginning to fulfill his dream of moving up in the world. And it might sound a bit unconventional to us, but it was quite normal at the time that one of his wife's sisters, Mary, 17, moves in to live with them. And Dickens adores her and he's known her ever since he first started courting Catherine. She used to act as their chaperone on dates, so she's a welcome addition to the family home.
- [10:45]
Peter Frankopan
So here's Dickens. He's 25, he's a literary success, people know his name, he has a young family, a large home, he's very popular. All's well with the man about town, but then tragedy strikes hard.
- [11:09]
Unknown
Okay, most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions, but get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com wondery that's rocketmoney.com wondery rocketmoney.com unwanted.
- [12:07]
Peter Frankopan
Wondery this episode is brought to you by Columbia Sportswear. From snowy trails to city streets, Columbia has you covered. Their Omni Heat Infinity jackets are the gold standard in warmth pushing the boundaries of innovation. Feel the difference as thermal reflective technology wraps you in warmth whether you're hiking mountains or conquering your daily grind. Visit Columbia.com to learn more.
- [12:43]
Afua Hirsch
It's a Sunday afternoon and the Dickens home is eerily quiet. The only sound the ticking of the clock and its chime as it marks the time passing. Charles Dickens has been trying to concentrate on the sound to calm his nerves, but he's in turmoil. It's been 12 hours and his darling Mary is showing little sign of improvement. He shuts his eyes and remembers the horrors of the previous night. He, Catherine and Mary had been to the Theatre. They'd returned home, had another drink and gone to bed. Around 1. He'd been unable to sleep and was considering a night walk when Mary had let out a blood curdling scream. He'd rushed into the room to find her still in day clothes, collapsed against her bed, her face contorted in pain. He hadn't known what to do. They'd called a doctor and their mother, then more doctors. That was nearly 12 hours ago and they are all still waiting. What a friend Mary is. Sometimes he's not sure what he would do without her. She's in awe of him, of course, but she's a marvellous sounding board for his writing. He holds her to him as she drifts in and out of consciousness. Earlier she had taken a small sip of brandy from his hand, but now she appears to be sinking as if into a sleep. He doesn't want to believe it, but he knows she has passed. He holds her lifeless body and whispers to her. Beautiful Mary. Perfect, faultless girl. Thank God she died in my arms, he thinks as he slips a ring from her finger and puts it onto his own.
- [14:43]
Peter Frankopan
So apparently he wore that ring for the rest of his life. And there's a bit of chatter about whether Dickens relationship with Mary is suspicious or strange. But you know, this is the time when it's not unusual for a younger sibling to come and help an older brother or sister or relative around the home. And there's no evidence at all that there's anything beyond deep familial love. So Mary and Catherine are very close and Catherine's just as devastated as Dickens. But you know, Dickens is an emotional man. He's a wannabe actor. He's not averse to moments of melodrama too. But you know, it's a huge blow to lose such a close friend.
- [15:19]
Afua Hirsch
I would add to that. I think he has this relationship with women that's really complicated. He has this tendency to beatify women that he looks to as pure innocent. They tend to be younger. And I don't think there's anything sexual or at all predatory about it. But there's something else that's a little bit unhealthy, which is this unrealistic hero worship of the women he puts into this category. And the reason I think it's problematic is that it contrasts to women who have a more rounded role in his life, like his wife, who he doesn't look at with the same rose tinted lenses. So I think his devotion to Mary is real and there'll be other young women he feels this real adoration for. But it does seem slightly disconnected from full emotional reality. There's just something a little bit dishonest about it.
- [16:17]
Peter Frankopan
We know it hits him hard because he tells his publishers that he's pausing, writing his two books, and it's the only time in his life that he misses a deadline. But because Dickens has already got such a big following, there starts to be gossip flowing around that maybe Dickens has died or he's lost his mind, or perhaps he's in a debtor's prison, of all places. And it's so intense that speculation, his publishers, they issue a statement to say he's alive and well. And that's, again, a bit like celebrity image management today. You know, the press release that you say that the superstar is fine often gives you a clue that everything's not fine. The fact you have to say it too. But it does tell you something about Dickens having this kind of double life of being in the public eye and then at home.
- [16:59]
Afua Hirsch
And it's almost a triple life, because as well as his public Persona, his private Persona, he's also got the fictional narrative in the books he creates that are very real to him. And of course, he doesn't waste any true life events when it comes to mining fact for fiction. So the death of Mary inspires various characters throughout his work. We'll see Rose, Maylie and Oliver Twist, who falls ill but then recovers. And you can't help but wonder if that was a kind of what if rewriting of a happier outcome for Mary. And then, of course, little Nell in the old Curiosity shot, which he begins a couple of years later, it's hard not to see parallels with his view of Mary and her character in Nell, who has a really tragic end.
- [17:43]
Peter Frankopan
So after Mary's funeral, Dickens And Catherine, his Mrs. He calls, a bit like Guy Ritchie Madonna, isn't it? And they rent a farmhouse in Hampstead, which sort of was the countryside in those days. Gosh. I mean, he'd have done well if he'd bought his property rather than writing books. And they go there to recover. And it's around this time he meets and becomes friendly with John Forster, who becomes Dickens closest friend and, in fact, his first biographer as well. And they have a very intense relationship, a bit like Dickens had with Mary. Mary had read the Pickwick Papers before it was published. He'd given her a copy of Oliver Twist before it had gone off to the publisher as well. And he uses Forster in a sort of similar capacity. They are more or less inseparable, until Forster gets Married. And Forster in fact is the first outside his family that he tells the warts and all story of his family to.
- [18:31]
Afua Hirsch
And unfortunately for him, Forster becomes in effect his literary agent. And the role doesn't exist in such a formal sense at the time, but that's essentially what he is. And I say unfortunately because you wouldn't wish the job of Dickens literary agent on your worst enemy. What a total nightmare.
- [18:48]
Peter Frankopan
Why not?
- [18:49]
Afua Hirsch
Because he's constantly falling out with his publishers. I mean, his entire life is a string of never ending battles against the publishing industry. And I'm not saying he's in the wrong, because this is an era before there are any clear rules about intellectual property, about copyright and royalties. And an author like Dickens can expect to be completely fleeced and have his work pirated and copied without any credit. But on top of that, he's always resentful that he's not making enough money from his work. And even when that's a legitimate grievance, the way he goes about handling it is not. I mean, you're an author, Peter. I'd love to know what you think, but I don't think that's the ideal way of navigating those grievances.
- [19:33]
Peter Frankopan
I love you're throwing me under the bus. I'm an author as a best selling sitting opposite you, bestselling author. I think the point of having someone in the middle is to shield you from some of those discussions and also to allow you to have greater leverage so that you can depersonalize those criticisms. I mean, you're absolutely right. Dickens has a very strong idea, both of money, but also what his own value is. And I suppose in its sort of rawest form, trying to push to get better terms from your publisher. You know, the public can always say no. In fact, Dickens does it a bit like George Michael when he stopped recording for Sony. You know, just refuses to work to force his publisher to come back to the table and give him better pay. And I think that those questions you mentioned about copyright and intellectual protection we sort of slightly take for granted in a world where now things like AI are cannibalizing the way in which anybody who's in the creative industries can see their work ripped off by robots.
- [20:22]
Afua Hirsch
Yeah, in a way we're going back to the wild west of Victorian publishing. But you know, I actually wonder, as you're saying that if Dickens, if he lived now, would he have been a self published author? Because one of the things he really resents, which I, I can totally relate to, is that as the creator of these works you actually earn a really small fraction of the value. You know, the royalties you get paid are what's left after the publisher's taken the lion's share. And what you're paying for is the platform and the distribution and the marketing that the publishers put into the work and the credibility of their name and their brand. But obviously the more famous Dickens become, the less he needs anyone else's name or credibility. And you do wonder, had the opportunities that exist now to just reach your audience directly and keep all of the profits, if he would have actually jumped.
- [21:08]
Peter Frankopan
At that, he'd be on Substack.
- [21:10]
Afua Hirsch
He'd be on Substack and Patreon and doing his own speaking tours.
- [21:15]
Peter Frankopan
So Dickens as well as writing a lot and never missing a deadline, except for once, he's something of a party animal. He loves a drink, he makes a mean gin punch and he's quite flamboyant in the way he dresses, almost like a dandy. Large collars, extravagant waistcoats. I guess because he's saying that he's successful and he wants to show that he's come a long way from the workhouse. He wants to wear the trappings of his success. And Dickens is enjoying himself because as well as the adulation, he's unbelievably productive. I mean, the list of things he writes in this little window, it's kind of amazing.
- [21:49]
Afua Hirsch
This is the definition of work hard, play hard, go on. Incredible productivity between 1836 and 1840. So that's just six years. He publishes the Pickwick Papers, Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, the Old Curiosity Shop, Barnaby Rudge and Martin Chuzzlewit.
- [22:08]
Peter Frankopan
All major novels to generate that many best selling books that are still famous 200 years later, you know, Dickens stands in a category all of his own. And I guess the single most famous scene of, of all of Dickens work.
- [22:25]
Afua Hirsch
It's a high bar. Cause there's a few.
- [22:27]
Peter Frankopan
This one is, I promise you, definitely. We're gonna agree, aren't we? This is the most famous scene from Dickens.
- [22:33]
Afua Hirsch
Oh, let's hear it first.
- [22:34]
Peter Frankopan
And this you might remember or know from the famous 1968 movie with Mark Lester as Oliver and Jack London as the Artful Dodger. There are lots of other productions and versions of Oliver Twist, but everybody knows this scene.
- [22:49]
Charles Dickens
The evening arrived, the boys took their places. The master stationed himself at the copper. His pauper assistants ranged themselves behind him. The gruel was served out. The gruel disappeared. The boys whispered each other and winked at Oliver while his next neighbours nudged him, child as he was, he was desperate with hunger and reckless with misery. He rose from the table and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand. Said, somewhat alarmed at his own temerity, please, sir, I want some more. The master was a fat, healthy man. But he turned very pale. He gazed in stupefied astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds. And then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralyzed with wonder, the boys with fear.
- [23:42]
Peter Frankopan
What?
- [23:44]
Charles Dickens
Said the master at length in a faint voice. Please, sir, replied Oliver. I want some more.
- [23:52]
Afua Hirsch
Okay, yeah, I will give it to you. I think this is definitely a strong candidate for most famous scene. And I think, like his other very famous scenes. You don't need to have read a single Dickens novel To know this scene, know the characters. It's become part of the culture. And that's the thing about Dickens, right? He's so transcended literature. I mean, he has become an author of culture in Britain, particularly.
- [24:14]
Peter Frankopan
But this must also have something to do with his childhood. You know, the police. I Want Some More speaks to Dickens in the workhouse. It speaks to generations of people dying too young. It speaks to those five dead children. That Dickens saw when he was a boy. You know, the idea that there's enough to go around. And the reason why people don't get enough. Is because they're not given it by higher ups who don't want to share. That's what this scene is saying. And I think that's why it strikes such a chord with audiences in cinemas, in theaters. And people who read this book. Is that it's about inequality, injustice. And the ability to correct systems. That doesn't get taken.
- [24:52]
Afua Hirsch
Just talking about another novel in this era, Nicholas Nickleby. I think that some of the pervasive negative PR around British boarding schools. Have their origins in this novel. Because it's really an attack on schools where children are just dumped also, again, at the cruelty of these adults. Who torment them completely unnecessarily. And he creates this incredible villain. The headmaster, Mr. Squeers, one of Dickens famous comic creations. Who is so absurd with his cruelty and meanness. And just really creates that setting of hell on Earth. I'm just really curious, Peter. Cause you went to a boarding school. If that was something that schools were conscious of distancing themselves from. Did children come to boarding school with fears that it might in any way resemble the Dickensian portrayal?
- [25:45]
Peter Frankopan
Yes. Yes. And, you know, I was in a generation where a lot of teachers from boarding schools ended up in prison. I mean, most didn't but you know, the abuse that went on was terrific. Sometimes by boys against other boys. I was at all boys schools the whole way through my school career. But I mean, very subversively. When I was about 15, there was a school play every term and Nicholas Nickleby was put on. And the echoes was very obvious if you're in the audience about what abuse looked like, what teaching looked like, the ways that privilege could all go wrong. But I also recognized that experiences in the latter part of the 20th century were really not like the middle of the 1840s. So it was all a kind of dramatized version, an exaggerated version, and a kind of warning of what would happen. But I mean, every time I have seen Nicholas Nickleby, every time I've read Nicholas Nickleby, I get incredibly emotional with the character of Smike, who is sort of the abused taken advantage of. If you haven't read the book, there's a spoiler alert. You know, he dies at the end. And I've always found that difficult to read because it speaks to the ways in which people can just get cast off to one side. So I don't know whether that was just a boarding school experience, but it opens that discussions about unfairness and abuse that I think we see everywhere.
- [27:02]
Afua Hirsch
I think to Dickens, great credit, the fact that that was performed at your boarding school and used as a tool for exploring what boarding school could be and shouldn't be, speaks to how Dickens gave us a language for critiquing these institutions.
- [27:20]
Peter Frankopan
What Dickens is trying, I think, to say is that these are all preventable and that there can be characters who stand up against authority and that there is social justice in the end. Because typically with Dickens, not always, but typically bad people get punished. And there is a kind of strong sense of Christian morality in Dickens work that is trying to say that if you work hard enough, if you persevere, if you keep on going, you can get these things corrected. And that is a very hopeful message.
- [27:47]
Afua Hirsch
So let's talk about the old Curiosity shop. Because when it comes to good characters having good ends.
- [27:52]
Peter Frankopan
Go on.
- [27:54]
Afua Hirsch
Oh, Little Nell, a 13 year old who lives with her gambling addicted grandfather in his Curiosity shop and who is in a classic Dickensian creation, the picture of goodness, innocence, virtue, she's a very one dimensional character. And if I have one big critique of Dickens, it's that he loves a one dimensional female character in his work. But it's Forster who persuades Dickens that Nell should have a pretty grisly ending.
- [28:22]
Peter Frankopan
But Dickens didn't want to do that.
- [28:23]
Afua Hirsch
He didn't want to do it. And he did it in a way at his cost, because he's not creating these sterile, disconnected pieces of fiction. He's fully immersed and invested in his writing and the emotional exertion and heartbreak of killing off Nell. Sorry. Also, spoiler alert to anyone who hasn't read. The Old Curiosity Shop is so intense for him that it actually makes him ill.
- [28:50]
Peter Frankopan
So week after week the story builds up. It's a bit like the cliffhangers in EastEnders. You know, you can see it coming. And people start to talk about it, they start to write Dickens to ask him to change the ending, to not do what looks like it's inevitable. And he's incredibly good at dragging things out and making people think that there might be another way out of it. And people start to write to him from Britain, all over the uk, all over the United States, begging Dickens to save him.
- [29:15]
Afua Hirsch
Incredible scene in the US where people are actually waiting at the docks for the ship to arrive with the latest print installment of the Old Curiosity Shop and praying out loud that Nell will live.
- [29:29]
Peter Frankopan
Dickens has become a star. I mean, what that tells you is that he is a recognizable household name. How you can monetize that, how you can use that power of what you choose to wr, it's almost like a game that you can drag it on for yet another episode. And you know, he is so well known that the young Queen Victoria, who's crowned around about this time in 1837, she reads Oliver Twist when it comes out and she calls it excessively interesting. But Dickens isn't interested in the Queen at all. He's a staunch Republican and then in fact he gets a chance to go and tour America, as we'll see. But he believes that there's a different way of political engagement that doesn't involve hierarchies because he's an outsider. So, you know, amongst the things he objects to is the death penalty. He stands against that for most of his life. He speaks out against public executions. It can't have been easy when you gone to see one as he did in 1840.
- [30:16]
Afua Hirsch
Although I would say, and this is classic Dickens, he's never straightforward. He is a critic of the death penalty, he is a critic of the penal system. But he later in life advocates that execution should be private within prisons rather than public, which isn't a completely clear cut stance against them. And even on prisons, he actually later disagrees with other reformers who think there should be more of an emphasis on education and rehabilitation. He's very firmly of the idea that prison is for punishment. I think he would have sided with the more right wing press in some of their attitudes today.
- [30:50]
Peter Frankopan
Okay. But you know, he's got to catch a break somewhere. Right. And I do understand the ways in which we can revisit the 19th century and think about how progressives should and could have been more progressive and more joined up. But in terms of his sort, it's still a voice that is doing something that is challenging the order it is.
- [31:06]
Afua Hirsch
There are others of his contemporaries who are challenging it more in some ways. But having said that, and we will get to this, the contribution he makes personally to reform and to drawing the public's attention to unfairness is so unparalleled that I think you're right, we should be generous in our interpretation of his complexities.
- [31:24]
Peter Frankopan
Right. And I mean, I think Dickens, the way we read it when I was younger and read it today, is that there is a social message there about thinking about society in all of its different layers and about the fact that life is very, very, very difficult for a lot of people and they're the majority. And I think that's one of the reasons why Dickens is also drawn to the idea of America. I mean, in January 1842, he books tickets for himself and his wife to go to the United States. Because that idea of a new utopia forming with all of its imperfections that we're going to talk about feels like there's a new world, there's a new way. And he has a farewell dinner in Liverpool, which I quote, this is what they have, as I would always insist, this is my rider before I.
- [32:03]
Afua Hirsch
What would you go to before you hop off to Kazakhstan?
- [32:07]
Peter Frankopan
It has to be turtle cold punch, hock, claret and champagne.
- [32:13]
Afua Hirsch
Going to sound like I've got a drinking problem. The things I would pick off that menu are the punch, the claret and the champagne.
- [32:17]
Peter Frankopan
Anyway, they board the paddle steamer Britannia and they have a stormy 18 day crossing of the Atlantic.
- [32:22]
Afua Hirsch
Dickens is keen to see, as he puts it, the republic of my imagination. And the Americans are more than keen to welcome him. But will it be all he hopes? Loops.
- [32:42]
Unknown
Hi listeners. This episode is brought to you in part by Echo Kids. Echo Kids is a cute, smart speaker with Alexa made just for kids. Echo Kids can help foster your children's independence by allowing them to learn and explore. Kids can express their unique personalities by customizing their device with fun greetings, jokes and character inspired songs. Plus, with features like math help and trivia quizzes, your kid will always be learning. You can have peace of mind. Knowing Echo Kids automatically gives kid friendly answers and filters out explicit music. Purchase of an Echo kids comes with one year of Amazon Kids, plus a digital subscription designed for kids aged 3 to 12 to learn, grow and explore. Shop the device this holiday season@Amazon.com echokids.
- [33:25]
Remember when gaming meant dropping hundreds on a console or gaming PC? Well, those days are over. Amazon Luna lets you play your favorite video games instantly on devices you already own, just like streaming a movie. No expensive hardware required. Here's the Amazon Luna magic. All you need is an Internet connection and a screen. Your phone, tablet, laptop, fire, tv. They all instantly become your gaming oasis. No game downloads, no special hardware. Just gaming. And we're talking hundreds of amazing games here, from the latest releases to beloved classics. Fortnite, Sonic, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Batman, action adventure, racing, strategy, RPGs. So much game, little time. But the best part? If you're an Amazon prime member, you can play on Luna for free. That's right, free. Ready to level up your gaming? Head to Amazon.com Luna to start playing today. No console, no problem. That's cloud gaming with Amazon Luna.
- [34:38]
Peter Frankopan
25Th of January 1842 Tremont House Hotel, Boston, Massachusetts Charles Dickens sits at a table, writing. Every now and again. He looks up directly at Francis Alexander, an artist who is painting his portrait. Dickens's thick, dark hair sits between the bottom of his ears and his chin, the natural curls giving him a foppish look. His skin is clear, he is the picture of health, and he's been treated like a superstar. He's been in Boston now for three days, but he's not entirely happy. He explains to Mr. Alexander that he was full of enthusiasm when he arrived, dancing through the snow filled streets, taking everything in. But now he feels hounded. Take a look at all these invitations, he says, pointing to a pile of letters from every part of the country, individuals and institutions, universities, Congress, Senate balls, dinners, assemblies. It feels endless. Dickens doesn't know how to handle the ball. And it's not just the letters. Crowds of people pour in and out of the hotel looking for him. Others line the streets just to catch a glimpse. As if to prove his point, there's a knock on the door. Without waiting for a response, it opens and several women rush into the studio. They're armed with scissors and they want a piece of his fur coat. One even asks for a lock of Dickens hair. He decides to placate the women. I'm going to have to refuse your request. I don't want to set a precedent Because I may end up totally bald. The women are shooed out of the room. Both Dickens and Alexander breathe a sigh of relief. But it can't carry on like this.
- [36:37]
Afua Hirsch
So what happens next is that the portrait painter Francis Alexander has a young man studying under him who he gives to Dickens as a secretary who helps him for the rest of the tour. And he needs that buffer because as we can see, he's just under such demand. He's gone to America to sell books, to give talks, to meet fans. But when it happens and it's that overwhelming, sometimes it's just too much. You need to be protected and you need to have boundaries. And it's almost like he's gone to America without being prepared for the level of adulation he's going to experience. I mean, this is basically just another day in your life.
- [37:16]
Peter Frankopan
Yeah, I don't think, I don't think anyone can quite. I understand the pressure that Dickens was under. You know, it's adulatory and it's kind of, you know, unbelievable. But at the same time you also feeling you're letting everybody down. Cause you can't be everywhere all the time. So Dickens, he begins a six month tour in Boston and he goes through Worcester, Springfield, Hartford to New York. And the crowds are everywhere. You know, In New York, 5,000 people apply for tickets for a BOS Ball and the band plays See the Conquering Hero Come. And I guess no matter how high a view you have of yourself, it's hard to have a personal and private life within those contexts where you're constantly working.
- [37:53]
Afua Hirsch
I kind of love that where he goes to Washington and meets the President, John Tyler, not one of the best remembered presidents, but when the president then invites him to dinner in the White House, he turns it down. So he's not only trying to create boundaries with regular fans, he's really getting to the point where he's had enough. So much so that he turns down the presidency, but he turns down, he.
- [38:15]
Peter Frankopan
Turns out the US President John Tyler because he found Tyler very boring. And you know, some credit to doing that because what do you achieve by having dinner with the President apart from feeling flattered, you know, so Dickens, I think it's quite brave that he's his own man. But that clamor, I mean it's sort of Taylor Swift esque or Beatles, like, you know, the fact that there are people gathering around and that's, that hasn't happened to an author before. I mean that's one thing if you're a politician or if you're A ruling monarch or, you know, you're super famous. But to be a kind of creative hero like this, it's the first time that's really happened. This is a kind of product of mass media. It's a product of connections. It's the product of the fact that the world is becoming smaller. So perhaps you could see him as being the first or one of the first global celebrities.
- [38:58]
Afua Hirsch
And he's in America in 1842. This is still very much the era of plantation slavery. Millions of African Americans are enslaved on American soil. And the further Dickens travels south, the less enamored he grows of this country and its systems of power. He writes, we are now in the regions of slavery, spittoons and senators. All three are evils in all countries.
- [39:26]
Peter Frankopan
I think that Dickens is keenly aware of suffering. And in fact, he only gets as far south as Richmond in Virginia before he turns back north, too upset by what he sees of slavery. Dickens also sees, which is slightly unusual as well at the time. Wandiot Indians, as Dickens would have known them, indigenous peoples being pushed off their ancestral lands, and describes them as a fine people, but degraded and broken down. And so when Dickens says, set sail for home in June 1842, he is disillusioned by his own personal experiences of being mobbed, which is, you know, flattering in one way, but on the other hand, you know, he's just a novelist, but also by this vision that he'd hoped for of seeing an America that was filled with promise and new ways of doing things, actually, in many ways, is not just a reflection of what he's seen back home in England, but a version that is kidding itself that it's more enlightened. So, you know, his disappointment at the youth pours out on the page. He writes a book about his trip called American Notes for Circulation, and Edgar Allan Poe calls it one of the most suicidal productions ever deliberately published by an author.
- [40:36]
Charles Dickens
The upholders of slavery in America. Of the atrocities of which system I shall not write one word for which I have not had ample proof and warrant, may be divided into three great classes. The second consists of all those owners, breeders, users, buyers and sellers of slaves who will, until the bloody chapter has a bloody end. Own breed use, buy and sell them at all hazards, who doggedly deny the horrors of the system in the teeth of such a mass of evidence as never was brought to bear on any other subject who would, at this or any other moment, gladly involve America in a war, civil or foreign, provided that it had for its sole ending object the assertion of their right to perpetuate slavery and to whip and work and torture slaves unquestioned by any human authority and unassailed by any human power who, when they speak of freedom, mean the freedom to oppress their kind and to be savage, merciless and cruel.
- [41:42]
Afua Hirsch
So on the one hand, I think it's easy to see Dickens as somebody who was on the right side of history when it comes to slavery, feeling appalled by that system and positioning himself against it. But I would add a big caveat to that because he actually later, like many other liberals in Britain, was sympathetic towards the south in the American Civil War. And lots, lots of liberal Brits felt that it was actually the south who were preserving the tradition that was more recognisable to Britain as former colonists than the progressive North. So he wasn't a clear cut antagonist of the slavery system. His views about race in general are too oversimplified by a narrative that he was an anti slavery advocate. He had the conventional colonial views of his generation. He regarded colonized peoples as inferior races. He wrote about that a lot. He wrote very disparagingly of black characters. There are very few black characters in his books, but the ones that exist are not real people. They're very one dimensional almost caricatures. And he never really questioned the idea that Britain had these colonies apart from these observations of the south during the 1842 trip. He didn't apply that consistently to colonized people, to black people, to indigenous people. And I think that that was a real failure of his curiosity, his imagination and his integrity actually, given that his whole work was supposed to be about unfairness.
- [43:16]
Peter Frankopan
Look, I definitely can't argue with you, Afra, about that, and you're quite right. But having said that, I do think that the platform and the megaphone that Dickens has to write in the way that he does does stand him out as being unusual. He didn't have to write about his experiences. He could have, you know, not monetized it. Maybe, if you're cynical. I mean, it doesn't stop Americans buying the book. 50,000 copies sell in two days. That extract we heard is, it's horrific. But others aren't doing that. They're not using their platform to do the same kinds of things. So I do think that Dickens views could have been more rounded, more inclusive that that prism of the 19th century. It's quite hard to see how he could possibly have been more enlightened because he feels like he's on the edge. When I read this stuff and hear Dickens saying it, it feels like it's radical relative to other men from his, his background from Britain and so on. And of course, looking back in the 19th century in a different way, from the perspective we have today, of course it's only half of the way down.
- [44:12]
Afua Hirsch
The line, but, and I think you're right, but there were also plenty of contemporaries who were far more critical. I mean, look at something like the Indian mutiny that was happening in the 1850s. He sided with the colonial Brits and that if you look at the massacres that were taking place in Jamaica, Britain's slavery plantations. He didn't apply the same critique he had towards the American south here, towards Britain, Britain's slavery economy that actually had far more enslaved Africans working on plantations under equally, if not more brutal conditions. He supported and sided with the British in those instances, even criticizing the way that some people were critiquing it. So I think it's, it's a really mixed bag and there were plenty of other people who had a much more enlightened perspective on those instances than he did. So it's a real double standard and I think that is part of his legacy.
- [45:08]
Peter Frankopan
Dickens is determined to put his American disappointment behind him. It's not just about slavery and being mobbed. He's also very angry in the United States that his publishers don't pay him enough. And in fact there's no real copyright protection in the U.S. so his books get ripped off and he gets angry about that. In fact, he goes to court in the United States to try to challenge, but he comes back to England with his wife Catherine. They'd got on very well on the trip, perhaps because she hadn't been pregnant for once. She's got four children by 1843 and they've moved into a bigger house in London, just up the road from Regent's Park, 1 Devonshire Terrace, and it's fancy enough and big enough to have its own Coach House.
- [45:43]
Afua Hirsch
And 15 year old Georgina, another one of his wife's younger sisters, moves in to help with this now growing family. And again, Dickens takes an immediate shine to her. And this will become one of the lifelong friendships of great importance in his life. While that's going on, he makes a new friend who will also be important and that's Ms. Coutts of the wealthy banker family. We still have Coutts bank and it still actually caters to the legal industry in London and around the country. And Ms. Coutts at the time was the heiress of the Coutts fortune and she used a lot of that money for philanthropic purposes. So there was a meeting of mines and her and Dickens now become co conspirators on how to redistribute some of that private wealth to good causes to help the poor.
- [46:32]
Peter Frankopan
And they set up schools in poor areas called the Ragged Schools. When an actor friend of Dickens dies, he supports his friend's wife and seven children financially. And it's far from the only time he does this. And I think Dickens knows what poverty feels and looks like for children, so he does try to help. But he's making lots of money for himself, as we've mentioned many times. But his ability, big, big spender. He has a grand house, grand lifestyle, expanding family. He has to look after his parents. He's involved in his charity. And I guess there's something of his father's echo of income and expenditure not matching.
- [47:08]
Afua Hirsch
There are two things I want to say here. The first is cause I've just launched into a big tirade of criticism against Dickens. He is remarkably generous. When somebody close to him dies and leaves a wife and children, he will jump to their rescue. He'll fundraise, he'll donate. Personally, I mean, he really goes above and beyond when a cause he thinks is worthy to help way more than most ordinary people or even most rich people would ever do. And the second thing I wanted to say is something I've personally learned from studying Dickens's life. I think his mindset is, I'll spend what I want to spend, but I'll just work more to fund it. That's quite a tempting mindset. And I feel like I may have been guilty of it myself at times. And what I've learned from Dickens is that it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea because no matter how hard you work, if you live beyond your means, you will always be struggling. And it's just remarkable to me that this man who was so famous, so celebrated, so productive, so successful, never really felt like he had enough money. You just feel this heaviness that his outgoings were just endless. And so he just worked more and more. And many of his books are famous and iconic, but not all of them are great.
- [48:21]
Peter Frankopan
No, but he is obviously extremely driven. And you know, at some point, if you, you are making lots of money, what's the point having it unless you're spending it? And many of Dickens's characters who are very wealthy, the criticism is that they keep it to themselves. You know, what's the point? So I think that that is okay. I think what the problem is is that because he works so hard, is so driven and he's in the public eye, he starts to draw attention. And sometimes that can be negative and painful. In 1842, he writes Martin Chuzzlewit in instalments, the usual way. And Dickens calls it immeasurably, the best of my story stories. But the critics disagree and so do the public. Partly because there's a recession, sales struggle, publishers cut their payments. So in the middle of 1843, he's bruised. Martin Chuzzlewit hasn't sold very well. It hasn't been very well reviewed and equally has a large wallet that needs filling. In fact, so much so that he has to borrow money. So he spread thin. And what Charles Dickens needs, he needs an idea. He needs a great story that's going to sell and sell. So he takes to his favorite thinking place, the Streets of London.
- [49:30]
Afua Hirsch
October 1843. London. It's the early hours of the morning and Charles Dickens is pounding the streets. He can't sleep and he has more on his mind than usual. Why has the response to Martin Chuzzlewit been so lacklustre? He's convinced it's one of his best stories. How dare the publishers suggest they reduce his payment. But there's something else that preoccupies him. He's been trying to write a response to the recent government report on child labour. Children as young as seven working down coal mines for 10, 12 hours a day. He crunches through the autumn leaves, trying to formulate his response. He wants to strike a hammer blow in favor of the poor man's child. Perhaps a pamphlet. No, that's not right. It needs to be something more, something evocative, something that will shake the nation's conscience so that everyone will be appalled by the way children are being treated. It's not a pamphlet. It's something else. He picks up his pace and he starts to feel the exception excitement of a new idea. It's a novel. Yes. He starts to laugh. The idea's momentum grows as his feet hit the pavement in regular rhythm. It will be set at Christmas, a time that should be joyous and warm, but that, for too many, is swallowed up by poverty and hardship. The story will tackle those two evils, ignorance and want. It will be about a man who's trying to feed his family, working all the hours there are for a rotten boss. Dickens thinks of potential characters. He's reminded of his sister's son, poor Harry, almost always unwell, physically disabled. Tears roll down his cheeks. Yes, Harry will play a part. He's already been walking for miles, but he keeps going as he pieces together his story of heartbreak and redemption, something that will illuminate, illuminate the darkest corners of society and maybe inspire change.
- [51:40]
Peter Frankopan
So that is Charles Dickens's probably lifetime Eureka moment. It's the idea for a story that is going to be such a surefire hit that nearly two centuries later, it's completely central in the way we think about Christmas. It comes on the TV every single year, is probably the way in which most people think about kindness, generosity and what Christmas and Christmas spirit really mean. That's next time on Legacy.
- [52:21]
Afua Hirsch
Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from Wondery and Goal Hanger. This is our series about Charles Dickens.
- [52:45]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history, but our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research.
- [53:03]
Afua Hirsch
We've used many sources for this series, including Clare Tomalin, Charles Dickens, A Life, Simon Callow, Charles Dickens, Jenny Hartley, the Select Letters of Charles Dickens and Lucinda.
- [53:14]
Peter Frankopan
Hawksley, Charles Dickens and special thanks to Emma Harper and the Charles Dickens Museum.
- [53:20]
Afua Hirsch
Legacy is hosted by me, AFWA Hersh.
- [53:23]
Peter Frankopan
And me, Peter Frankopan.
- [53:24]
Afua Hirsch
Scene Writing by Stephanie Power For Goal Hanger.
- [53:27]
Peter Frankopan
Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producer producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [53:40]
Afua Hirsch
This series of Legacy is sound, designed and engineered by Will Farmer.
- [53:45]
Peter Frankopan
Music supervision is by Scott Velasquez for Fritz N. Sink.
- [53:48]
Afua Hirsch
Our producer for Wondery is Emmanuela Coinate Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [53:54]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louie.