Charles Dickens | The Final Curtain | 4

Summary

Legacy Podcast Summary: Charles Dickens | The Final Curtain (Episode 4)

Introduction

In the culminating episode of the "Charles Dickens" series, titled "The Final Curtain," hosted by Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankerpan, listeners delve deep into the twilight years of one of Britain's most celebrated authors. This episode explores Dickens's personal struggles, his unwavering dedication to his craft, and the intricate balance between his public persona and private life. Through engaging discussions and poignant narratives, Hirsch and Frankerpan assess whether Dickens's legacy aligns with the reputation he holds today.

A Heroic Act Amidst Crisis (03:39 - 07:34)

The episode opens with a dramatic recounting of the Staplehurst rail crash in June 1865, where Charles Dickens displayed remarkable courage and selflessness. As Peter Frankerpan narrates, Dickens was traveling with two women on the Folkestone to London train when the locomotive jumped a gap in the tracks, leaving his carriage precariously dangling over the River Dart.

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (06:13): "This is selflessness and heroism, but also crisis management."

Dickens's swift actions in helping passengers, particularly the women Nellie Turnen and her mother, showcased his ability to remain composed under pressure. This incident not only solidified his reputation as a compassionate figure but also highlighted his awareness of his public image. Afua Hirsch emphasizes that while Dickens's actions were undoubtedly heroic, they were also calculated to preserve his legacy:

Afua Hirsch (06:59): "Genuine altruism, while also recognizing that he was thinking about his legacy and how people would think about him."

Personal Turmoil and Public Scrutiny (07:34 - 12:49)

Despite his public persona, Dickens's personal life was fraught with controversy. Following his separation from his wife Catherine, rumors of an affair with Nellie Turnen began to circulate. The hosts discuss the societal implications of such a scandal in Victorian England and its potential impact on Dickens's standing as a moral figure.

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (08:05): "I mean, it's just a question of what it would have meant for his reputation had it been widely known."

Dickens's attempts to quell these rumors by publishing denials in prominent newspapers like The Times and The New York Times illustrate his deep concern for his public image. The hosts also touch upon the lack of conclusive evidence regarding the affair, acknowledging the complexities of interpreting historical relationships.

Dickens's Affection for France and Literary Mastery (12:49 - 25:10)

The conversation transitions to Dickens's profound love for France and Paris, which significantly influenced his later works. Dickens's admiration for French writers like Balzac and Victor Hugo, coupled with his fascination with the evolving landscape of Paris under Baron Haussmann's reforms, is explored in depth.

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (13:21): "He also enjoyed the lifestyle and built environment of Paris... the cafe culture and the illuminated shops."

This period of his life saw Dickens become deeply embedded in the cultural and political milieu of Paris, which is reflected in his novels like "A Tale of Two Cities." The hosts commend Dickens's entrepreneurial spirit, highlighting his successful reading tours that not only boosted his income but also expanded his global fame.

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (24:41): "He's certainly not too pompous an author to think about his audience and want to involve them and make his work accessible."

Final Readings and Declining Health (25:10 - 34:28)

As Dickens continued his reading tours, his health began to deteriorate due to the physical and mental toll of constant performances. The episode vividly describes his last reading at Gad's Hill, where despite debilitating gout and exhaustion, Dickens delivered a heartfelt performance from "A Christmas Carol."

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (30:20): "That is an incredibly memorable way to open a novel."

His dedication to his craft persisted until his final days, culminating in his death in June 1870. The hosts poignantly depict his last moments, drawing parallels between his literary endings and his dignified demise.

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (33:45): "He is famous for the way he writes endings, the way his characters die. And that is just an incredibly dignified Dickensian death."

Legacy and Cultural Impact (34:11 - 45:48)

The discussion shifts to evaluating Dickens's enduring legacy, comparing him to literary giants like Shakespeare. Hirsch and Frankerpan debate whether Dickens's contributions to literature have been appropriately lauded, considering both his groundbreaking storytelling and his personal flaws.

Notable Quote:

Peter Frankerpan (37:32): "I have a deep respect for any writer because, as you know, writing books is difficult, it's selfish, it's narcissistic."

They acknowledge Dickens's transformative impact on literature and society, noting his ability to create iconic characters and influence cultural norms, such as the modern celebration of Christmas. However, they also critique his portrayal of women and his limited focus on broader social injustices beyond the metropolitan confines.

Notable Quote:

Afua Hirsch (41:06): "He failed to pay attention to that. That matters to me because those were stories that would have meant something to me had he told them."

Final Reflections and Concluding Thoughts (45:48 - 50:01)

In their closing remarks, Hirsch and Frankerpan reflect on the complexities of Dickens's character and his intertwined personal and professional lives. They express admiration for his resilience and innovation while also recognizing the human imperfections that shape his legacy.

Notable Quotes:

Afua Hirsch (47:35): "What he did do was create a body of work that is as popular today as it was when he wrote it 200 years ago. And that is a remarkable thing to do."

Peter Frankerpan (44:02): "The problem we have is that it's easy to critique someone's character flaws and failings and trauma, but the reality is if he wasn't so damaged, we may never have got any of this literature from which we benefit."

Conclusion

"The Final Curtain" offers a nuanced portrayal of Charles Dickens, balancing his extraordinary literary achievements with the personal challenges that influenced his work. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankerpan provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Dickens's enduring legacy, encouraging a reevaluation of his place in literary history. By examining both his public heroism and private struggles, the episode invites audiences to consider the multifaceted nature of fame and the enduring impact of one's legacy.

Transcript

[Afua Hirsch]

Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Hello and welcome to the final episode of our series on Charles Dickens. We left you at the end of the last episode with Dickens having made it right to the top. He's bought the house on the hill that he dreamt about as a child. He's acclaimed as a writer from Russia to America. As a modern great, he's one of the most famous men in the whole of Britain.

[Afua Hirsch]

But he has shocked London society by separating from his wife Catherine. And he has a secret, one that could ruin him if it becomes public.

[Peter Frankerpan]

From Wandery and Goal Hanger I'm Peter Frankerpen. I'm Afua Hirsch and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.

[Afua Hirsch]

This is Charles Dickens, Episode 4 the Final Curtain.

[Narrator]

Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Another worthwhile listen is Amy Tinterra's thrilling and twisting whodunnit Listen for the Lie. This laugh out loud, funny tale follows Lucy, a woman who needs to clear her own name after a true crime podcast decides to probe into the worst night of her life, one she conveniently can't remember. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com wonderypod and discover all the years best waiting for you.

[Advertiser]

What if you could learn from the world's best all in one place? You can with Masterclass. With Masterclass you can learn from the best to become your best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best. And you can access Masterclass on your phone, computer, smart TV or even in audio mode. Confidently navigate the media with influential intellectual Noam Chomsky, use science to solve your problems with Bill Nye or learn from the past with Pulitzer Prize winning historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. And the classes really do make a difference 88% of members feel that Masterclass has made a positive impact on their lives. Plus every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Don't wait another moment to start your learning journey with Masterclass. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com wondery for the current offer that's up to 50% [e-mail].

[Peter Frankerpan]

Wondery 9th of June 1865 Kent Charles Dickens looks at his pocket watch and then at the two women sitting opposite him on the Folkestone to London train. They should be easily back by 5pm he smiles at the younger of the two women, admiring her angular features. Suddenly the carriage jolts twice, lurching forward and back. Passengers are screaming and crying out. In the confusion, he feels someone grabbing him. Let us join hands and die, friends, says a panicked looking Nelly Turnen. She was the young woman he was smiling at. The other woman. Nelly's mother screams. Dickens tries to calm them. He tells them to stay put and try and keep very still. As the carriage is swaying alarmingly, he will go and find out more. Only after he's carefully climbed out of the train can he see the chaos. Part of the track on the bridge over the river Bolt at Staplehurst has been missing the engine and Dickinson's own carriage has jumped the gap, but the rest of the train smashed down into the river. Dickens's carriage is now hanging from its coupling, the bottom end touching the riverbank. He can hear groans and wailing from the other carriages, at least one of which is smashed into pieces. Thank goodness he and the Turnans had been in first class at the front. But now he faces another problem. He must not be seen with Nelly. He spots guards running frantically around the train. Do they recognize him? Shouting to one of them, he asks, do you know me? We know you Very well, Mr. Dickens. All the more reason to get both women out of this train and away from the scene as fast as possible. He runs back to the carriage to help them out and away. He picks up a bottle of brandy and his hat. Nellie is clutching at her neck. She has lost some jewelry. Dickens promises he'll try to find it. She just needs to go. Once they're out of sight, Dickens brushes himself down and breathes. Now he can make his presence known more formally. It would be good to help out. Looking behind him to make sure they are far enough away, he calls to the guards again, let me know what I can do. I have brandy.

[Afua Hirsch]

This is selflessness and Heroism, but also crisis management. In his personal reputation, Dickens is later seen on the front of the Penny Illustrated paper, a popular London weekly at the time. He could already, in that moment of crisis, see how different the story would be if it was about who he was traveling with, rather than the fact that he was helping injured passengers.

[Peter Frankerpan]

The train crash at Staplehurst in 1865 leaves 40 injured and 10 people dead, but Dickens and Nellie and Mrs. Ternan are unhurt, although Dickens children later say that he suffered flashbacks and nervous episodes for some time to come. And it seems that the accident happened because the workmen had been replacing rotting railway timbers, but had the wrong information about the next train to come up the line.

[Afua Hirsch]

Dickens wanted to be the hero, and he did do things, as we've established earlier in this series, to help. He genuinely tried to get people out of the ruined wagons during this train crash. And that swig of brandy and the water in his hat could have saved lives. He also saved the life of another boy, Edward Dickinson, and later had him to Gad's Hill for Christmas. All the ingredients of a classic Dickens story. But I think we can acknowledge that genuine altruism, while also recognizing that he was thinking about his legacy and how people would think about him.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Peter but you don't get the first question. Do you know who I am? That's quite telling, isn't it, that he's thinking about bad news coverage, potential implosion, and if they do know who he is, then the fact that he acts as a hero, you know, he's got an eye already on his legacy because he's talking to John Forster. He's been already appointed as his biographer. So these kinds of acts, they're more complicated than just stepping in to do good, aren't they?

[Afua Hirsch]

I think it's important to think about what it would have meant for him if he'd have been discovered as an adulterer in Victorian.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But would it have been so bad?

[Afua Hirsch]

I mean, that's the question. He's already publicly separated from his wife, which is a scandal and causes the disapproval even of people close to him. It's a big deal to do that at that time. It's hard for me to tell whether it was the idea of having an affair with a young woman or whether it was the fact that she was an actress and she wasn't from a more genteel family. I mean, as we know, infidelity was not exactly any more unusual then than it is now. It's just a question of what it would have meant for his reputation had it been widely known.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But Dickens was so famous that when there are rumors that spread after he splits up from his wife and moves out, that Dickens has to publish letters in the Times and the New York Times denying that he's having an affair and insisting that it's an amicable split. And so it's not just his family and his household that's divided and his friends. It's the whole world taking a view about his private life. And again, because maybe he's one of the world's first global celebrities. A slightly clunky word, but means that people have opinions about him, what he does in his private life matter just because it allows people to judge him.

[Afua Hirsch]

It's also a question of what he's known for, I think, Peter, you know, there's this famous case in privacy law based on Naomi Campbell. She went to Narcotics Anonymous and she was photographed by paparazzi coming out of an NA meeting. And she sued, saying it was a violation of privacy. And the press said they were correcting a false impression. She'd given cause. She'd publicly said she didn't have any addiction issues. And so the whole case stemmed on, is there a right of public interest, if somebody has misled the public about who they are to correct it, that justifies a violation of privacy that otherwise wouldn't be permitted. And, you know, I think of that with this Dickens case because Dickens was known not just as a famous writer, but a writer of A Christmas Carol. On Oliver Twist, he was the voice of morality and social conscience. He was urging people to do better, to be kinder and more philanthropic and empathetic. And you can imagine if the press had got hold of his affair, the kind of coverage could have created. So it feels like the stakes for him were really high. But that also doesn't excuse him, because the reality is he created that hypocrisy. He chose to write these books and propagate this message while also living a private life that was quite radically at odds, especially with how he treated his wife and children, with the public Persona he spread.

[Peter Frankerpan]

It looks to me that there's a bit of smoke and fire. You know, Dickens in the early 1860s, takes nearly 70 trips to France. He loves Paris. But as one of his biographers says, maybe he has installed Nelly in a house in northern France where she became pregnant in 1862. And that baby died as an infant. When Dickens dies, two of his children say that he had a son with Nellie. But, you know, recent biographers say that there's no Proof. In fact, Peter Ackroyd in 1990 goes even further and says it's inconceivable that they might have been in a relationship. But I think the treatment of Catherine speaks for itself about the public way that that was done and that Dickens is having to write about who he's sharing a bed with in the national and international press.

[Afua Hirsch]

It's a shame we don't know more about Nellie and what she thought and felt and did and didn't agree to. All of her letters to him, his letters to her have been destroyed. There are things like accounting references that suggest he was paying for her to have a house in Peckham with her mother. And as you said, all these trips, that kind of amount to circumstantial evidence. But it's true. There's nothing completely conclusive. I think the idea that it's inconceivable is wishful thinking. And I do feel a bit skeptical of these male biographers who place men like Dickens on this high moral pedestal. And there's plenty that is known and proven, even what his own children later said about him to suggest he was a very problematic character. I don't think there's anything inconceivable about it, but it's also not that surprising or original. I mean, man gets to a certain age, has a midlife crisis, turns on his wife, hey, Presto. Finds this young, pretty woman attractive and wants to reinvent himself. I mean, that is the most ordinary story in the world.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But there are pushbacks. So when he goes to the for a second time in 1867, as it happens, he loses his diary and it's later found and not returned to him, but reveals that he was seeing Nelly regularly and he'd wanted her to travel with him on the American tour, but the organisers thought that the scandal would be too great. So it doesn't really come out any more than that. But we know that Nelly later marries, has children and lives until 1914. But that chapter of Dickens life is a painful one. But it's also. He's not just getting out of England only to see Nelly, even though he probably takes head of France. What about Dickens's love affair with France and with Paris?

[Afua Hirsch]

He is becoming a firm Francophile and a huge fan of Paris. And it's interesting because his first trip, decades earlier, he was not complimentary about France. He regarded it as less civilized.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But then he spends Christmas there in 1846 and he learns to speak French fluently. He also admires French writers like Balzac. Although slightly, strangely, he says that French writers have greater liberty to be able to write exactly what they want, whereas British ones are restricted by societal expectations, which I'm not sure that's absolutely correct.

[Afua Hirsch]

He also enjoyed the lifestyle and built environment of Paris. He's getting into cafe culture and the illuminated shops. But also this is the era now that Paris is getting that famous makeover from Baron Haussmann and the city is being rebuilt designed to be more sanitary, livable, navigable, unlike London, which which at that time remained this kind of higgledy piggledy mix of slums and medieval streets. So there's much for somebody as reform minded and public works oriented as Dickens to admire in Paris. And then of course there are the writers. I mean, you mentioned Balzac, but he's now becoming friends with Victor Hugo, Alexandre Dumas. He's getting to know the leaders of the 1848 Revolution that overthrew the monarch, because remember, he is a republican and fascinated by revolution.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And Dickens feels so comfortable in France and in Paris that in fact he signs off one letter home during one of his days as Charles Dickens, Francais, naturalizer and citoine de Paris, French by nature and citizen of Paris. So his love affair with Paris is profound. And so it's no surprise that his next novel should be split between Paris and London. A story with perhaps the most famous opening line in literary history.

[Advertiser]

You sign up for something, forget about it. After the trial period ends, then you're charged month after month after month. The subscriptions are there, but you're not using them. In fact, 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. Thanks to Rocket Money, you can see all your subscriptions in one place and cancel the ones you're not using anymore. Now, boom, you're saving more money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Wondery today. That's RocketMoney.com Wondery RocketMoney.com Wondery Ladies, is.

Everyone trying to fix their health concerns with unproven gummies and tricks? Well, thank goodness Low Libido has a real clinically proven treatment. Low Libido can be so frustrating. But there is a treatment called addi. ADDI is the first and only FDA approved pill proven to boost sexual desire in certain premenopausal women. Isn't that great a clinically proven option for your low libido that comes from a doctor, not a gas station? Learn [e-mail] and take charge of your sexual health with a treatment that's backed by science. Remember, that's Addie A d d y I.com Addi or Flavanserin is for premenopausal women with acquired generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past who have low sexual desire. No matter the type of sexual activity, the situation or the sexual partner, the low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem, problems in the relationship or medicine or other drug use. ADDI is not for use in men or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased if you drink one to two standard alcoholic drinks. Close in time to your ADI dose. Wait at least two hours after drinking before taking ADDI at bedtime. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is also increased if you take certain prescriptions over the counter or herbal medications or have liver problems. Low blood pressure and fainting can happen when you take addi. Even if you don't drink alcohol or take other medicines. Do not take if you are allergic to any of the ingredients in addi. Allergic reactions may include hives, itching or trouble breathing. Sleepiness, sometimes serious, can occur. Common side effects include dizziness, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, and dry mouth. See full PI and medication guide including boxed [e-mail] PI or call 844 pink pill addy that's addy a d d y I.com.

[Narrator]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair. We had everything before us, we had nothing before us. We were all going direct to heaven. We were all going direct the other the way. In short, the period was so far like the present period that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received for good or for evil in the superlative degree of comparison only.

[Afua Hirsch]

That is an incredibly memorable way to Open a novel.

[Peter Frankerpan]

That opening line gets quoted again and again and again. You know, the Simpsons, Star Trek and the Avengers films as well. But it has a great finishing line too, doesn't it?

[Afua Hirsch]

It is a far, far better thing that I do than I have ever done. It is a far, far better rest than I go to, than I have ever known. These are the last words of the alcoholic, cynical lawyer Sydney Carton as he climbs the steps to the guillotine, sacrificing himself to save the husband of the women he loves. The thing about Dickens, right, is that it can be a little bit corny, a little bit of a cliche, like too good to be true, and yet you can't help but be moved by it.

[Peter Frankerpan]

God, I would take that any day. You know, self sacrifice, the redemption, the forgiveness. They really speak to me. Maybe I'm a softie.

[Afua Hirsch]

No, they reach me too. I love Tale of Two Cities and I am always moved by it. Maybe I'm just projecting. It takes an incredible amount of confidence as a writer to create endings like that that kind of neatly come together without being self conscious that it is a little bit too convenient. But it's like Dickens does not give airtime to that kind of self doubt. He just creates the stories he wants to create. And of course they become enduring stories for the ages.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And he also captures history. You know, if you're thinking about France in the 17 and 1800s, Paris Revolution and the guillotine are the kind of most important symbols of all of that. So ending the book with a head being separ on the one hand, straightforward and obvious thing to do, but at the same time, what else would you lead up to? You know, he's a master of drama and some of that is because he understands that cadence of leaving things on the cliff edge. So he publishes A Tale of Two Cities in a new magazine, yet another one. He set up this one called All Year Round and he writes it not monthly but weekly. And the first issue sells 100,000 copies. And to give that some scale, that's double the daily sale of the Times, right? So this is huge in terms of its, the platform, the voice, the popularity, but also it's a big money spinner. He makes huge amounts of cash.

[Afua Hirsch]

And as if that is not enough, one year later he publishes what many consider to be his greatest novel right off the back of A Tale of Two Cities. Great Expectations.

[Peter Frankerpan]

So those back to back hits, I mean, I don't know what you're thinking, Afra, but I'm thinking Wham. In 1983, 1982 to do young guns and Club Tropicana and WAM rap in 12 calendar months. You know, it's kind of gold to have that kind of touch. It's something you're not looking completely.

[Afua Hirsch]

I just don't think Dickens could have dreamed of almost 200 years later, getting compared to Wham. I think that he's now surpassed his greatest fantasy about his legacy, the great.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Creatives in the sky, that George Michael and Charles Dickens are sitting on a cloud, comparing notes. So Great Expectations, it begins at Christmas, one of Dickens go tos. And it's also set in classic Dickens land, both real and imagined. The backdrop for the sweeping story of Pip, an orphan, again, another Dickens go to are the marshlands of Kent and Rochester and the streets of London, the law courts, Soho, the River Thames. And it's often bleak and really dark, but crammed with other memorable characters like Jaggers the lawyer or Magwitch the convict.

[Afua Hirsch]

I find Great Expectations so dark and depressing, it's actually quite hard to read. But this is Dickens bleak era and it's deliberately bleak, it's intentionally dark. One of my favourite characters is Miss Havisham. She's an iconic Gothic character and we see her so, memorably, for me, in this novel, sitting at the wedding breakfast of the wedding that never happened. She lives, haunted for life by this tragedy. And it's such a poignant and lasting image.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But this is all about not getting what you want, about disappointment, about failure, about not understanding yourself. And, you know, although at the end redemption is part of it too, it is dark and it's filled with sorrow. Do you think this is being inspired because he's being successful? It's a sense of guilt? Or do you think he's testing and trying things that are new?

[Afua Hirsch]

I read one biographer who hypothesized that all Dickens characters represent the good and the bad elements of his own life, his own character. And I really see that in Great Expectations. I think Pip's story is one of failure, as Clare Tomalin, his biographer, puts it. Failure to understand what's happening to him, failure to win the girl he loves, failure to save his benefactor, failure to make anything of himself. He just redeems himself morally and that's enough after all he's seen. And it's enough for the reader too. And I wonder if this is Dickens exploring that part of himself that does feel that he's failed.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And failure sells. People love that stuff. What's interesting is that Dickens is really an entrepreneur as well, that I've really learned that by thinking about his life more that he's not just this great writer and great communicator, great connector in his complicated personal life. He's also constantly trying to think about how to monetize. And he comes up with a sort of semi podcast way of making money again.

[Afua Hirsch]

He loves a performance and he's been doing occasional free readings.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Same for a while, same.

[Afua Hirsch]

But in 1858 he sets off on a properly paid tour charging Britain to come and see him read adapted melodramatic scripts from his stories. And he's really leaning into the most action packed, heart wrenching scenes from his novels here.

[Peter Frankerpan]

It's not just that he's trying to make money, he's taking a risk. No one's done this before and you don't know whether anybody's going to turn up or not. And why would you go and turn up to here? Somebody read something out from a page where you're not engaging, you're not asking questions. But he's worked out how to commoditize himself and the fact he tries that again and again and again in different ways, different platforms. I think you probably write in a different way if you're trying to think about who your audience is and trying to reach them.

[Afua Hirsch]

He's certainly not too pompous an author to think about his audience and want to involve them and make his work accessible. And you know, this is still an era of varying literacy as well. And he's also worked out that there is money across the pond as well. He goes back to America in 1867 and makes £20,000 from 76 readings. That is a huge sum, roughly equivalent to about £2 million in today's money.

[Peter Frankerpan]

I mean it's so much money, but it's understanding that people want to meet the author, they want to let some of that glitter rub off on them. And he's very aware of that. I mean, when he goes to America, the second time he meets meets his second US president, this time Andrew Johnson. He met President John Tyler before and found him unbelievably dull. And then later on he meets Queen Victoria and King Leopold of Belgium, who's her cousin. And not because he wants to meet them, but because they're keen to meet him. But that schedule of giving talks all the time, talking about yourself is exhausting. And his health starts to worsen. This is how he describes it in a letter to John Forster.

[Narrator]

I cannot eat and have established this system. At seven in the morning in bed, a tumbler of new cream and 2 tablespoonful of rum at 12, a sherry cobbler and a biscuit at 3. Dinner time, a pint of champagne at 5 minutes to 8, an egg beaten up with a glass of sherry between the parts of the reading, the strongest beef tea that can be made drunk hot at a quarter past 10, soup and any little thing to drink that I can fancy.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Have you ever had an egg beaten up with a glass of sherry?

[Afua Hirsch]

No. That sounds not the most advantageous breakfast.

[Peter Frankerpan]

It suggests a man who maybe doesn't have a off button or, you know, is willing to indulge himself because, I mean, that is not great for your circulation, it's not good for your heart, it's not good for your health. And you know, by the late 1860s, Dickens Health is starting to decline. So in fact his Last Christmas in 1869 is largely spent in bed at Gad's Hill listening to the sounds of his grandchildren playing downstairs.

[Afua Hirsch]

And we're downplaying it slightly. He is drinking too much. But he's really an addict at this point. He's addicted to laudanum. He needs it to help him sleep. He has worn himself ragged and his mental health and physical health seem in a very fragile states. The following year he dines with his friend George Eliot, who thinks he looks dreadfully shattered.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And he's only 58, but he's been doing all of these readings and he's surely not strong enough to keep going because they're tiring, they're exhausting and he's obsessive.

[Afua Hirsch]

Even if you're in the best of health, this is a really physically and mentally demanding thing to do. Performing like this, your own work, the most emotive parts of your work in front of a live audience.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But there is time for just one more.

[Afua Hirsch]

Standing at the side of the stage, Charles Dickens can feel the anticipation from the huge crowd. He's been told there are 2,000 people crammed into this space tonight. Almost a quarter over capacity for this, his last ever reading. He's been touring the country giving emotional performances, including the Murder of Nancy by Bill Simon Likes from Oliver Twist. He gave his all each time, but he's worn himself out on several occasions. The performance left him prostrate, unable to move or speak. Only half a pint of champagne could remedy it. His doctor took his pulse at the end of many performances. One time it was over 200 beats per minute. He makes his way onto the stage with the aid of two walking sticks. The gout in his leg is throbbing. He's all too aware that his face is now etched deep with the lines of both age and poor health. But the audience still goes wild for him. He doesn't have the energy to stand at his specially made transparent reading desk. So he takes the seat and starts to read from A Christmas Carol, his voice hoarse and weak at first.

[Narrator]

A Merry Christmas, Uncle. God save you, cried a cheerful voice. It was the voice of Scrooge's nephew who came upon him so quickly that this was the first intimation he had of his approach.

[Afua Hirsch]

The audience laughs, they cry, they cheer. He reads passages from Pickwick. The audience goes wild. For a moment he forgets his pain. This is why he does this. The ultimate escape. But too quickly. It's over. With difficulty, he walks off stage and then back for a curtain call and another. The crowd cheers, waving their handkerchiefs. Dickens blows them kisses. From the stage, he motions for silence. He wants to say goodbye. He looks up at the ornate domed ceiling and then at his admiring fans.

[Narrator]

From these garish lights, I vanish now forevermore. With a heartfelt, grateful, respectful and affectionate farewell.

[Afua Hirsch]

The applause and stamping are so loud it feels like the walls are shaking. With tears pouring down his face, Charles Dickens leaves the stage for the final. There's something about being conscious of giving your final performance, you know? Cause usually in life you always think there'll be one more, one more goodbye, one more time. You think he knew, but I mean, this was a farewell tour. I'm not sure if he knew when he was going to die, but he knew he wasn't going to be able to keep doing these performances, so it seems like he knew.

[Peter Frankerpan]

But you've got the Elton John farewell tour, you know, number 22 and Celine Dion never gonna sing in public. And you know, there she goes again.

[Afua Hirsch]

If this was now, we would definitely have had the netfl that he would have co executive produced. No, I think this really was a farewell tour. It was called that at the time he approached it that way, he was struggling to even get onto the stage. I mean, he couldn't go on. And it does speak to his complete resilience that he kept going.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Reading that afwa, you know, makes me think of really good performances at literary festivals and also, you know, whether Dickens is the kind of originator of literary festivals. I mean, the idea that you were going and hear an author talk and communication is a different thing to being a writer. And if I know lots of writers who are not great presenters, I know lots of really great presenters, maybe not such great writers.

[Afua Hirsch]

And Dickens was Both.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Dickens was both right.

[Afua Hirsch]

He really poured his heart and soul into his work, all of it, and it took a real toll. I mean, as you said, he's not an old man, but he seems way older than his years and he is in the last few years, there's even days of his life. At this point in the story, 1870, he is really, really high profile now. He dines with Disraeli, he breakfasts with Gladstone, and as if socialising with two prime ministers wasn't enough, he also dines with the Prince of Wales, who is desperate to meet him. He's now seemingly resigned himself to the fact that he socializes with royals. And he's still writing, Peter.

[Peter Frankerpan]

He's writing the Mystery of Edwin Drood, a murder story that will never be solved. And on Wednesday, 8th of June in 1870, he's sitting in his writing chalet and at 6 o'clock, Georgie Hogarth watches him come into the dining room and she thinks he looks really unwell. I have really been very ill for the last hour, he replies, and she offers to send for the doctor and he says, no, I'll have dinner and then go up to London. He starts to mumble and make increasing little sense.

[Afua Hirsch]

And if her account is true, which many biographers believe it is, his last words, words are incredibly literary. She says, come and lie down, and he says, yes, on the ground, and he collapses on the floor. And those are his last words. He has suffered a brain hemorrhage from which he'll never recover.

[Peter Frankerpan]

He doesn't regain consciousness and his final night is spent on a sofa in the dining room at Gad's Hill. His daughters Katie and Mamie arrive around midnight and they spend the night listening to his heavy breathing and placing hot bricks next to his freezing feet. He doesn't die until 6 the following evening. He's supposed to have given a sigh, a single tear rolled down his right cheek, and Charles Dickens stopped breathing. He died at the Top of the hill, age 58.

[Afua Hirsch]

What I find so moving, almost magical about that is that is an ending right out of one of Dickens's novels. I mean, he is famous for the way he writes endings, the way his characters die. And that is just an incredibly dignified Dickensian death. And it feels, I guess, pretty fitting that the man who spent his life creating those stories for others inhabited one himself at the end.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And it's a death of a celebrity. I mean, it's front page news. So the New York Times headline reads, death of the great novelist. Not a great novelist. The Great novelist, mourned by the people of two continents. I mean, it shows the connection that Dickens has had with so many people.

[Afua Hirsch]

He didn't want any memorial left after he died. Instead, as he wrote in his will.

[Narrator]

I rest my claims to the remembrance of my country upon my published works and to the remembrance of my friends upon their experience of me.

[Afua Hirsch]

And this is, for me, a bit of a metaphor for fame, that he had wanted to and left instructions that he be buried in Kent, the place that he loved, without any pomp and ceremony. But it's really not about him now that he's passed. It's about the country and what the people want. The Times runs an editorial calling for him to be buried in Westminster Abbey. His son Charlie and his lifetime friend Forster agree. And a special train takes the coffin from Kent to London. The family try to keep it as close to his wishes as possible. A plain hearse. No singing, no eulogy. Only quiet organ music and the tolling of the bell as the burial service is read. But this is not the small, anonymous burial that he had initially said he wanted.

[Peter Frankerpan]

No, but it's done quietly. So There are only 30 people there at the funeral. Half of the family and the others are just random passersby who follow the coffin into the Abbey, curious to see what's going on. But then the grave in Westminster Abbey is left open for two days, and thousands file past for a glimpse of the coffin. And even that is something that's kind of become more usual, you know, when the Queen died and people queuing up to pay their respects. You know, Dickens is also one of the first people that gets that kind of state funeral. You know, it's normally reserved for great military figures, people who've protected and served the king or the country, the empire. But Dickens has this cultural phenomenon and this cultural impact that's absolutely huge. This episode is brought to you by Columbia Sportswear. From snowy trails to city streets, Columbia has you covered. Their Omni Heat Infinity jackets are the gold standard in warmth, pushing the boundaries of innovation. Feel the difference as thermal reflective technology wraps you in warmth. Whether you're hiking mountains or conquering your daily grind. Visit Columbia.com to learn more. 80% of the work week is spent communicating, so it's important your team does it well. Enter Grammarly. Grammarly's AI helps teams communicate clearly the first time. It shows you how to make words resonate with your audience, helps with brainstorming, and lets you instantly create and revise drafts in just one click. Join the over 70,000 teams and 30 million people who use Grammarly to move work Forward. Go to Grammarly.comenterprise to learn more. Grammarly Enterprise ready. AI.

[Afua Hirsch]

I've read a description of Dickens as Shakespeare to novels. Do you think that's fair?

[Peter Frankerpan]

Okay, so number one in terms of fame and celebrity. Yes. I mean, Shakespeare stands alone as the greatest English playwright. And I'd have thought Dickens. It's quite hard to see who sits in that same category with him. Not just because of the books that he sold, which was huge, not just because of the sheer number of works that he produced, like Shakespeare's one bestseller after another. It's also the ways in which he changes the ways that things happen. So, yeah, I'd be sympathetic to try to do a comparison.

[Afua Hirsch]

I'm just thinking about his contemporaries. I mean, he's living alongside Thackeray, Henry James, George Eliot, Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, many great novelists who also contributed to the canon and the evolution of the novel. But I wonder if any of them have really entered the language and the culture the way Dickens has. You know, did any of them create something as omnipresent in our imaginations as a Scrooge or as an Oliver asking, please, sir, can I have some more? They're such iconic characters. He changed our own perceptions of Christmas. When I make decisions about where I want to be on the 25th of December, I am channeling something that Dickens imagined for me. I mean, that is a really big deal.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And there's the social justice, there's the seeing of the world from the bottom up, of not looking past the filthy streets and the terrible privations. You know, obviously Dickens's own background gave him a particular perspective on that. But that's not what Henry James is really trying to do, or Jane Austen. Those sort of genteel literary styles that they have are arguably finer writers than Dickens. But in terms of what Dickens does, I think it's a good case to make of someone who's truly transformational. And I suppose in that kind of category, you know, you can work through some of the other people we've talked about. You know, Bob Marley, Nina Simone. People are mould breakers. And there's a reason why we talk about them on legacy, because Talking about people 200 years after they died, or more or less, the fact that they have still got a resonance and a relevance is telling us something specific about them.

[Afua Hirsch]

How many authors or creatives in general become an adjective in the way that Dickensian is synonymous with an entire era in Victorian Britain?

[Peter Frankerpan]

Yeah, it doesn't happen. And in fact, normally it's leaders. You know, it's Elizabethan or Victorian, but Dickensian to capture it all. And everybody understands what that word means, even if you haven't read a word of Bleak House or David Copperfield or any of the other books.

[Afua Hirsch]

And in that sense it is a comparison with Shakespearean. He's one of the very few other writers who has become a phenomenon in the same way. I don't know if I would put them on a par. I think that the quality of Dickens work, I mean, the message and the productivity was so consistent. The quality of the storytelling and the plots and the characters is really variable in Dickens. He had some real masterpieces and he had some. I don't know if it's fair to call them duds.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Fair enough.

[Afua Hirsch]

They weren't all great.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Writing a play for a sort of discreet performance for a couple of hours is a different thing to pumping stuff out to be read in sort of installations. So the form is very different, of course, but I think that popularity and the accessibility that, you know, Dickens is not. Not just writing for people like himself, and he's writing for much wider sequence and audience. I mean, it is interesting about why Shakespeare sits so high in the firmament. But I wonder whether you think it works with musicians, whether with music. It happened like that too, that you have someone like Mozart, I suppose, but do you think we're rating Dickens? Maybe too highly. What about the downside? How do we take Dickens down a notch and put him back level with all the mishaps, the ways he describes women or race, the ways in which it's over commercialized.

[Afua Hirsch]

I don't have any problem with authors becoming commercialized. You know, I think that if your message is about social reform and noticing and caring about inequality in society, the more people you reach, the better. I think he may have helped slow our progress in having nuanced views about women. His female characters are really thin and feed into tropes about sex and gender. I think that his failure to apply the humanity that was at the center of his work to Britain's colonial possessions, the treatment of the poor and dispossessed, there is a huge failure that's not just detracting from his work, but also helped generations of British people have the same cognitive dissonance and erasure where they just think it was something that happened somewhere else to other people and nothing to do with the. I mean, he was a writer of the metropolis, not the periphery. But he erased the periphery and even though it was there. So I hold that against him. You know, I'm not saying you have to listening, but for me, given what he was supposed to be about, which was really paying attention to class and poverty and unfairness, he failed to pay attention to that. That matters to me because those were stories that would have meant something to me had he told them. But, you know, it's easy to sit here and say he should have done this and he should have done that. What he did do was create a body of work that is as popular today as it was when he wrote it 200 years ago. And that is a remarkable thing to do.

[Peter Frankerpan]

I think that's right. I mean, his books, they're dense, they're dated as well as helpfully having their resonances, as we mentioned. I mean, the writer he reminds me most of is Tolstoy, the great Russian novelist who was very influenced by Dickens, you know, by how he wrote, what he wrote about the themes and so on. And I think that sort of seminal way of thinking, big writing big, has as its downside long books that perhaps you're reluctant to pick when you're younger. Do you think, having learnt much more about Dickens and talked about him, when you picked up and reread Bleak House for this, did you do it with joy? Did you read it in a different way to maybe how you read it when you were younger?

[Afua Hirsch]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It was better than I remembered, but it was also longer and more tedious at times than I remembered. He really demands a lot of your attention and he just goes off on so many tangents. As somebody who's now really curious about that era, I'm learning from all of it. But the kind of cliches and tropes and stereotypes and coincidences bother me a little more than they did when I was younger and maybe less well read. So, you know, I kind of appreciate him more. His productivity, his work ethic, the rate at which he was creating these works, some of them brilliant, impresses me more. The variation in quality is not something that I would dream of if I was writing novels the way he did.

[Peter Frankerpan]

I think that what Dickens can do is if you frame him as we've tried to do, you get to ask slightly different and unusual questions. So some of the things we talked about, Dickens being involved in literary festivals, the ways in which he sees himself as an entrepreneur, the way in which he's trying to work out how to get a reasonable relationship with his publishers. So he makes what's fair, the ways in which he's Trying to talk about and putting his money where his mouth is with traffic, women and so on. And the way also that Dickens life is about putting those ghosts of his own childhood to bed. You know, the traumas of where we started in episode one of a very complicated father who, you know, as you said, Dickens had to take out an advert in the newspaper saying, my father's debts have nothing to do with me. Right. Of a father who's exploiting Dickens's success.

[Afua Hirsch]

And actually did so for most of his life.

[Peter Frankerpan]

I did so for most of his life. And Dickens father lives for a long time as well. Long and expensive time that he's trying to make the most of things. And I have a deep respect for any writer because, as you know, writer books is difficult, it's selfish, it's narcissistic. When we had the honeymoon scene and Dickens said, I'm going to keep writing, I know what that feels like, where you need to keep. And you know, I take my hat off that what Dickens was doing was moving away from his past to try to be something special. And that adulation he got in his lifetime must have felt very, very rewarding and satisfying for him, even though, you know, his complications, private life flowed as a result.

[Afua Hirsch]

The problem we have is that it's easy to critique someone's character flaws and failings and trauma, but the reality is if he wasn't so damaged, we may never have got any of this literature from which we benefit. So I don't subscribe to the idea that you need to suffer and be tortured to be a creative genius, but you can see in his case how the two are deeply embedded with each other.

[Peter Frankerpan]

So something that we always do at the end of our last episode in every series is to come up with three words. And I know you're so good at this, afwa. So how about your three?

[Afua Hirsch]

It might be more Dickensian than we'd like, as in a little bit of a cliche, but you go first because.

[Peter Frankerpan]

You'Re ready, entrepreneur and hard worker, which I have a hyphen in, so it counts as one word.

[Afua Hirsch]

Okay, I'm revising mine based on our recent conversation.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Okay.

[Afua Hirsch]

Shakespeare to novels.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Ooh, gosh, you're much better that than me. Okay. And what about your favourite Charles Dickens book?

[Afua Hirsch]

My favourite Charles Dickens book is A Tale of Two Cities.

[Peter Frankerpan]

I get a shout out a book we didn't really talk about very much, Little Dorrit, because I read that at quite a good moment again in my teenage years. And like so much of Dickens, it's very moving, but you've got to be in the right place to read it yourself. Second Martin Chuzzlewit.

[Afua Hirsch]

No, really Fascinating. We'll take that. We'll continue that conversation after the recording.

[Peter Frankerpan]

It's gotta be the highest Scrabble score. Always pick the highest Scrabble score. Those double Z's and the W. As.

[Afua Hirsch]

A writer, I'm not sure that's my dream, but. But I'll take it.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And do you have a favourite Dickens quote or favourite Dickensian actor that we finish off with?

[Afua Hirsch]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It just never gets tired.

[Peter Frankerpan]

I'm gonna have one then. And I'm gonna choose from A Christmas Carol which says there is nothing in the world so irresistibly contagious as laughter and good humour.

[Afua Hirsch]

I'm sure that lives on Christmas cards.

[Peter Frankerpan]

That lives on Christmas cards. But I would also put it to you that here we are in this stage of the world's history, that probably we need laughter and good humor more than ever before.

[Afua Hirsch]

I'm going for one more from our mutual friend. Have a heart that never hardens and a temper that never tires and a touch that never hurts.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Well, the man can definitely write. Thank you for listening to this series of Legacy. Next week we're back with a brand new character, someone who's known globally for. For four words that she almost certainly never said.

[Afua Hirsch]

Let them eat cake. Yes. Our next series unravels the story of Marie Antoinette, the last queen of France, the poster girl for the dissolute monarchy who lost her head after the revolution.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Pretty certain she didn't say that because she didn't speak English. So join us for that next time on Legacy.

[Afua Hirsch]

Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey survey from Wondery and Goal Hanger. This is the fourth episode in our series about Charles Dickens.

[Peter Frankerpan]

A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research.

[Afua Hirsch]

We've used many sources for this series, including Clare Tomalin, Charles Dickens, A Life, Simon Callow, Charles Dickens, Jenny Hartley, the Selected Letters of Charles Dickens and Lucinda Hawksley.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Charles Dickens and special thanks to Emma Harper and the Charles Dickens Museum.

[Afua Hirsch]

Legacy is hosted by me, Afua Hirsch.

[Peter Frankerpan]

And me, Peter Frankerpan.

[Afua Hirsch]

Scene writing by Stephanie Power for Goal Hanger.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reed and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.

[Afua Hirsch]

This series of Legacy is sound designed and engineered by Will Farmer.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Music supervision is by Scott Velasquez for Frit? N Sink.

[Afua Hirsch]

Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinorte Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.

[Peter Frankerpan]

Executive producers of Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louie.