Encore: Charles Dickens | Dickensmania | 2

Summary

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Legacy Podcast – Encore: Charles Dickens | Dickensmania | 2

Date: December 23, 2025
Hosts: Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode of Legacy continues its dive into the life and legacy of Charles Dickens, focusing on the years that transform him from an emerging literary talent to a bona fide celebrity. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan chronicle Dickens’s rapid rise, his literary innovations, the tragedies that shaped his art, and his increasingly complicated relationship with fame, philanthropy, and personal values. With a particular emphasis on the explosive impact of his serialized novels and his unique ability to engage public conscience, the episode also scrutinizes the contradictions in his private life and politics—laying the groundwork for considering Dickens's place in literary and social history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Dickens's Meteoric Rise (01:18–06:47)

• Early Success: The episode opens with Dickens as a young married man, having just published Sketches by Boz and starting work on The Pickwick Papers. His energy and productivity dazzle the London literary scene.
• Innovation in Style and Marketing: Both hosts stress how Dickens revolutionizes novel-writing—with brisk, performative dialogue and serialized installments that create suspense and community among readers.
• "Boz has got the Town by the ear" (04:06) – Critics marvel as Dickens’s distinct voice captures the lives and speech of ordinary Londoners, introducing a rawness unprecedented at the time.
• Comparison to Modern Media: Afua draws a parallel: “He’s like a proto... come on, podcaster. Telling stories in installments. You have to subscribe or buy each episode. It needs to be heard and performed as well as read.” (05:04)

Craft, Chaos, and Deadlines (05:56–08:39)

• Juggling Projects: As Dickens writes the Pickwick Papers, he is already at work on Oliver Twist—demonstrating remarkable discipline honed from his journalism background and ability to work under pressure.
• Evolution in Quality: Afua notes, “You can see his evolution even with simultaneous projects. Because Oliver Twist is a much better plotted story than Pickwick... it’s become one of his most iconic tales.” (06:47)

Life’s Highs and Tragic Lows — Mary Hogarth’s Death (08:59–14:45)

• Personal Ties: Dickens’s home life flourishes outwardly, but catastrophe strikes when Mary Hogarth (Catherine’s sister, his closest confidante) dies suddenly. Dickens is devastated, reportedly wearing her ring for life.
• Interrogating Relationships: Peter acknowledges rumors of impropriety but concludes: “There’s no evidence at all that there’s anything beyond deep familial love.” (14:10) Afua adds that Dickens had a “tendency to beatify women... an unrealistic hero worship... disconnected from full emotional reality.” (14:45)
• Grief in Art: Mary’s death deeply disrupts Dickens; it’s the only time he misses a deadline, leading to public rumors and a rare publisher statement. Her loss echoes through characters like Little Nell and Rose Maylie.

Dickens the Hard Negotiator & the “Wild West” of Publishing (17:58–20:41)

• Bitter Battles with Publishers: Afua calls Dickens “a total nightmare” for literary agents, always fighting for rights and income. Peter suggests his fights are justified: “Copyright and intellectual protection—we sort of take for granted now... then, it was the wild west.” (18:59)
• Modern Parallels: The hosts muse if Dickens would have thrived as a self-published author today: “He’d be on Substack and Patreon, and doing his own speaking tours.” (20:36)

Fame, Productivity, and Culture (21:15–23:40)

• Output and Persona: Dickens embodies “work hard, play hard”—publishing six major novels in six years while becoming the life of the party. He is flamboyant, energetic, and at the center of London’s social whirl.
• Literary Immortality: The most iconic scene—Oliver’s “Please, sir, I want some more.” (23:09)—is highlighted as a symbol of Dickens’s resonance with social injustice, hunger, and hope.

Dickensian Social Critique and Institutions (24:18–26:46)

• Attack on Schools: The hosts discuss Nicholas Nickleby—Dickens’s attack on abusive boarding schools. Peter recounts seeing the novel performed at his own boarding school, crediting Dickens for giving voice to childhood suffering and a “language for critiquing these institutions.” (26:28)

The Tension between Justice and Morality (26:46–30:50)

• Christian Morality: Dickens champions characters who resist injustice, promoting the hope that perseverance leads to social justice. Afua critiques Dickens’s one-dimensional female characters, especially Little Nell, and laments his tendency to kill off virtuous heroines at personal emotional cost (27:48).

Dickens as a Global Celebrity – The First Literary Pop Star? (33:08–37:28)

• American Tour: In 1842 Dickens sets off for the US. The mania is overwhelming: “Crowds pour in and out of the hotel... others line the streets just to catch a glimpse... women armed with scissors want a piece of his coat.” (33:08)
• Handling Fame: Peter compares Dickens’s fame to that of the Beatles or Taylor Swift, calling him “one of the first global celebrities.” (36:43)

Encounters with American Injustice and Hypocrisy (37:28–41:46)

• Slavery and Disillusionment: Dickens is appalled by US slavery, abruptly ending his southern tour and writing scathingly of the system in American Notes for General Circulation. A notable quote:
  • “The upholders of slavery... own, breed, use, buy and sell them at all hazards... when they speak of freedom, mean the freedom to oppress...” (Excerpt read at 39:06)
• Hypocrisy on Race and Colonization: Afua cautions that Dickens’s anti-slavery stance was inconsistent; he held colonialist views and his depictions of Black and colonized people were shallow, “a real failure of his curiosity, his imagination and his integrity.” (41:46)

Double-Edged Legacy: Advocacy and Shortcomings (42:43–46:51)

• Generosity and Philanthropy: Dickens supports friends’ widows, sets up charity schools, and donates tirelessly—Afua calls his actions “remarkably generous... way more than most ordinary or even rich people would ever do.” (45:38)
• Endless Outgoings: Despite fame, Dickens never feels financially secure, always working to keep up with his lifestyle—a struggle that persists throughout his life.

The Birth of "A Christmas Carol" (48:00–50:51)

• Desperation Breeds Inspiration: As sales lag and he faces mounting expenses, Dickens is inspired by reports of child labor to write a new story that would “strike a hammer blow in favor of the poor man’s child.”
• Eureka Moment: While pacing London’s streets, Dickens conceives the germ of what becomes A Christmas Carol, designing a tale that would forever shape ideas about Christmas—emphasizing generosity, redemption, and hope.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Boz has got the Town by the ear.” (04:06) — Critic describing the buzz around Dickens.
• Afua Hirsch: “He’s like a proto...come on, podcaster. Telling stories in installments. You have to subscribe or buy each episode. It needs to be heard and performed as well as read.” (05:04)
• On personal grief & fiction:
  Afua: “He doesn’t waste any true life events when it comes to mining fact for fiction.” (16:25)
• On Dickens’s philanthropy:
  Afua: “He is remarkably generous... he really goes above and beyond when there's a cause he thinks is worthy to help, way more than most ordinary people or even most rich people would ever do.” (45:38)
• American celebrity:
  Peter: “This is a kind of product of mass media... perhaps you could see him as being the first or one of the first global celebrities.” (36:43)
• Anti-slavery crusade:
  Narrator: “The upholders of slavery... when they speak of freedom, mean the freedom to oppress their kind and to be savage, merciless and cruel.” (39:06, American Notes excerpt)
• Afua on Dickens’s shortcomings:
  “His views about race in general are too oversimplified by a narrative that he was an anti slavery advocate... a real failure of his curiosity, his imagination and his integrity, actually, given that his whole work was supposed to be about unfairness.” (41:46)
• Dickens’s eureka moment:
  “He wants to strike a hammer blow in favor of the poor man’s child. Perhaps a pamphlet. No, that’s not right. It needs to be something more, something evocative...” (48:00)

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Important Segments: Timestamps

• Beginnings, Dickensmania and Early Success: 01:18–06:47
• Mary Hogarth’s Death and Fallout: 08:59–14:45
• The Only Missed Deadline — Public Rumor: 15:43–16:25
• Dickens’s Professional Battles: 17:58–20:41
• Dickens as Social Commentator (Oliver Twist & Beyond): 21:15–23:40
• Nicholas Nickleby & School Abuse: 24:18–26:46
• Old Curiosity Shop and Little Nell: 27:14–28:41
• America, Adulation, and Disillusionment: 33:08–41:46
• Critiquing Dickens's Contradictions: 42:43–46:51
• The Conception of A Christmas Carol: 48:00–50:51

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Tone and Style

The episode is energetic, wryly humorous, and self-aware. Both hosts balance admiration of Dickens’s genius with a sharp, modern critique of his personal failings and complex legacy. The conversational style is peppered with literary anecdotes, analogies to modern media and culture, and reflective, sometimes challenging questions about the nature of fame, art, and social responsibility.

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Summary

This episode of Legacy offers a gripping, detailed journey through the triumphs and turmoil of Dickens’s early-to-mid career. It highlights his innovative storytelling, his meteoric rise to fame, his intense productivity, and his encounters with private tragedy and public adulation. Dickens’s social activism and failures are weighed with nuance, underscoring the tension between his visionary advocacy for the poor and his blind spots regarding race and empire. The stage is set for the birth of A Christmas Carol, portrayed as a product of artistic inspiration borne from social outrage, personal necessity, and deep empathy. The discussion deftly illuminates why Charles Dickens’s legacy remains so vivid and contested today.

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Transcript

[Hannah Berner]

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[Paige de Sorbo]

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[Paige de Sorbo]

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[Hannah Berner]

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[Paige de Sorbo]

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[Peter Frankerpoe]

Hello, and welcome to a special Legacy encore episode.

[Afua Hirsch]

While we take a short break over the Christmas period, we're dipping back into the archive to revisit some of our favourite episodes.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

And we can't start anywhere better than with Charles Dickens and the Christmas Carol.

[Afua Hirsch]

We'll let the episode speak for itself, but before we do, here's a quick reminder that the full back catalogue is always there for you to explore.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Hello, and welcome to the second episode of our series on Charles Dickens. We left you in the last episode with Dickens and his new wife, Catherine. He's just published his first book, Sketches by Boz, and he's hard at work on his first novel.

[Afua Hirsch]

Things are looking good for young boz. It's 1836, he's 24, in love, or so he tells himself. First child on the way. His writing's attracting attention. He is the rising star of the London literary world. Fame is coming, but so is a rollercoaster ride of triumph and tragedy.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

From Wandering Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankerpoe. I'm Afua Hirsch and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.

[Afua Hirsch]

This is Charles Dickens, episode two, Dickens Mania.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Heads. Heads.

[Narrator/Reader]

Take care of your heads. Cried the loquacious stranger as they came out under the low archway, which in those days formed the entrance to the coachyard. Terrible place. Dangerous work. Other day, five children. Mother tall lady eating sandwiches. Forgot the arch.

[Afua Hirsch]

Crash.

[Narrator/Reader]

Look, children. Look round. Mother's head off.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Sandwiching around.

[Narrator/Reader]

No mouth to put it in. Head of a family off.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Shocking.

[Narrator/Reader]

Shocking. Looking at Whitehall, sir. Fine place. Little window. Somebody else's head off there, eh, sir? He didn't keep a sharp lookout enough either.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Hey, sir.

[Narrator/Reader]

Hey.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Welcome to the world of Dickens novels. That's from his first one, the Pickwick Papers and the moment that Alfred Jingle arrives in the story.

[Afua Hirsch]

And Alfred Jingle is a Cockney character and takes his place among the first great cast of Dickens characters, so many of whom have become embedded in our culture.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So when we left Dickens at the end of the last episode, he was on his honeymoon, busy working at all hours of the day. And the Pickwick paper starts to appear in installments, in each one wrapped in pale green paper. And in 1836, after initially struggling sales, it begins to take off. And it's a huge hit eventually. And Avrajingle actually is one of the key people that drive that success forward.

[Afua Hirsch]

Boz has got the Town by the ear, writes one critic, and it's the comic story of Samuel Pickwick and his friends and their adventures across London and the South. And it's also where Dickens is now starting to hone in on that very distinctive writing style of his. That extract that you heard with its brisk, staccato dialogue is actually very modern, don't you think, Peter? It's not just the long sentences and pages of bleak description that he's also known for.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Well, he's capturing real people's voices, right? It's not just the high register of what serious literature looks like. And you have to be clever and literate to understand it. This is something that people have to say out loud. So people are going to be reading it to themselves as well as to other people. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why it catches fire. And I mean, it's quite interesting that Bose has got the Town by the ear, as you mentioned, that quote by the critic, because I think that sound is so important in Dickens work.

[Afua Hirsch]

Basically, he's like a proto. Come on, podcaster.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

I knew you were going to say that. Tell me more.

[Afua Hirsch]

Well, he's telling stories in installments. You have to subscribe or buy each episode. It needs to be heard and performed as well as read. And people just keep coming back because they want the next installment.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

It's a modest price that Dickens charges, it's just a shilling. But people start to look forward to this regular instalment. And so Dickens can treat each one as a chapter on its own. And that teaches him, I think, about structure as well as everything else. But one of the things that really, I think, attracts readers is his attention. He pays to working class characters, from scoundrels to cheeky chappies, and he's constantly having to think of new, different characterizations.

[Afua Hirsch]

He also learns about marketing because he's writing to coincide with publications at specific times of the year, Valentine's Day. He has to think about stories that meet a theme of love and, and how to create stories that speak to Christmas.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

It's fascinating, that process of Dickens, understanding marketing structure, treating writing a bit like an entrepreneur. So his installments, monthly or weekly, sometimes they're seven and a half thousand words. That's a lot of material. I suppose what's interesting is when he's writing in these installments is you either have to have a vision of the whole of where this is all going, so you've got to be meticulous in planning, or as some novelists sometimes do, they write and they let things develop organically. And that's a real skill, I think, to be able to keep adding because you're reacting to what people say and think. But while he's writing Pickwickers, as if that isn't enough, he's also working on Oliver Twist. And so he's juggling multiple stories, plots, all of those characters. And he's really good at a deadline. You know, that's what makes a writer be productive. You know, he doesn't get worried about over perfecting things.

[Afua Hirsch]

This is going to be a skill that really comes from journalism, the ability to just work on deadline, to respond to that kind of pressure. And the thing about journalism is, you know, you might have a blank page, but you have that 5pm deadline. You better write something and you have to dig deep, you have to pull it out of somewhere. But you don't have the luxury of just sitting at the page feeling blocked. And I think that you see that in his productivity and actually you can see his evolution even with simultaneous projects. Because Oliver Twist is a much better plotted story than Pickwick. I mean, obviously it's become one of his most iconic tales. And it's also an example of something else that Dickens does, which is kind of reinventing the way the English language is written in novels. He's really trying to capture how working class Londoners speak. And that might seem quite obvious now, but at the time that was quite.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

A radical thing to do, that creativity that he has. I mean, we mentioned about Fagin and naming and you'll remember that Fagin was the boy he sat next to in the blacking factory. It'd be like Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond, taking the names of boys who he didn't like he'd been at school with. You know, that blurring of lines where things that you're seeing in real life you're capturing and you're working out how to include all of those. And that's a really good eye that he has for a good story. From being a reporter and from his.

[Afua Hirsch]

Own experiences, he's already been through so much. You can see how he's almost uniquely equipped to navigate this really pressurized world of being this nascent writer. And, you know, that attention to detail, that innovation, it's really paying off. His biographer, Clare Tomalin writes, it was as though he was able to feed his story directly into the bloodstream of the nation, giving injections of laughter, pathos and melodrama, making his readers feel he was a personal friend to each of them. Dickens knew he triumphed, and the sense of a personal link between himself and his public became the most essential element in his development as a writer.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So Dickens is living life at a fast pace because he's a great socializer as well as a hard worker. And it's not just that the Pickwick Papers are a hit. They have his real name on it. So it's Charles Dickens, not Boz, who's lapping up praise and adulation coming his way. And he revels in being the man about town.

[Afua Hirsch]

So his professional life is going great guns. But let's talk about his personal life, Peter. He is married, as we know, to Catherine in January 1837. They welcome their first child, Charles, known as Charlie. Spoiler alert, this will not be their last child. And Catherine suffers postnatal depression after the birth and refuses to eat. And I think it says something about the real connection that does exist between them at this point in the marriage, that Dickens is the only person who can really persuade her to eat and help her in that state of depression. And obviously this is a time when the phrase postnatal depression would not have been used and was poorly understood, but everyone could see that she wasn't in a good place. But of course, outward respectability remains important in this world. And from the outside perspective, all looks well with the family. They've now moved into a three story house in Bloomsbury, the largest house Dickens has ever lived in. So he's beginning to fulfill his dream of moving up in the world. And it might sound a bit unconventional to us, but it was quite normal at the time that one of his wife's sisters, Mary, 17, moves in to live with them. And Dickens adores her and he's known her ever since he first started courting Catherine. She used to act as their chaperone on dates, so she's a welcome addition to the family home.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So here's Dickens. He's 25, he's a literary success, People know his name, he has a young family, a large home, he's very popular. All's well with the man about town, but then tragedy strikes hard.

[Hannah Berner]

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[Peter Frankerpoe]

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[Hannah Berner]

Hannah Burner Are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying, Paige desorbo?

[Paige de Sorbo]

They are Tommy John. And yes, I'm stocking up because they the best holiday gifts.

[Hannah Berner]

So generous.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear and best fitting loungewear.

[Hannah Berner]

So nothing for your bestie?

[Paige de Sorbo]

Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John.

[Hannah Berner]

Oh, and you of course it's giving holiday gifting made. Easy.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy. Gift everyone on your list, including yourself with Tommy John and get 25% off your first order right [e-mail] comfort.

[Afua Hirsch]

It's a Sunday afternoon and the Dickens home is eerily quiet. The only sound the ticking of the clock and its chime as it marks the time passing. Charles Dickens has been trying to concentrate on the sound to calm his nerves. But he's in turmoil. It's been 12 hours and his darling Mary is showing little sign of improvement. He shuts his eyes and remembers the horrors of the previous night. He, Catherine and Mary had been to the theatre. They'd returned home, had another drink and gone to bed around one. He'd been unable to sleep and was considering a night walk when Mary had let out a blood curdling scream. He'd rushed into the room to find her still in day clothes, collapsed against her bed, her face contorted in pain. He hadn't known what to do. They'd called a doctor and their mother, then more doctors. That was nearly 12 hours ago and they are all still waiting. What a friend Mary is. Sometimes he's not sure what he would do without her. She's in awe of him, of course, but she's a marvellous sounding board for his writing. He holds her to him as she drifts in and out of consciousness. Earlier she had taken a small sip of brandy from his hand, but now she appears to be sinking as if into a sleep. He doesn't want to believe it, but he knows she has passed. He holds her lifeless body and whispers to her. Beautiful Mary. Perfect, faultless girl. Thank God she died in my arms, he thinks, as he slips a ring from her finger and puts it onto his own.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So apparently he wore that ring for the rest of his life. And there's a bit of chatter about whether Dickens relationship with Mary is suspicious or strange. But you know, this is the time when it's not unusual for a younger sibling to come and help her older brother or sister or relative around the home. And there's no evidence at all that there's anything beyond deep familial love. So Mary and Catherine are very close and Catherine's just as devastated as Dickens. But you know, Dickens is an emotional man. He's a wannabe actor. He's not averse to moments of melodrama too. But you know, it's a huge blow to lose such a close friend.

[Afua Hirsch]

I would add to that. I think he has this relationship with women that's really complicated. He has this tendency to beatify women that he looks to as pure, innocent. They tend to be younger. And I don't think there's anything sexual or, or at all predatory about it. But there's something else that's a little bit unhealthy, which is this unrealistic hero worship of the women he puts into this category. And the reason I think it's problematic is that it contrasts to women who have a more rounded role in his life, like his wife, who he doesn't look at with the same rose tinted lenses. So I think his devotion to Mary is real and there'll be other young women he feels this real adoration for. But it does seem slightly disconnected from full emotional reality. There's just something a little bit dishonest about it.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

We know it hits him hard because he tells his publishers that he's pausing, writing his two books and it's the only time in his life that he misses a deadline. But because Dickens has already got such a big following, there starts to be gossip flowing around London that maybe Dickens has died or he's lost his mind or perhaps he's in a debtor's prison, of all places, so intense that speculation, his publishers, they issue a statement to say he's alive and well. And that's again, a bit like celebrity image management today. You know, the press release that you say that the superstar is fine often gives you a clue that everything's not fine. The fact that you have to say it too. But it does tell you something about Dickens having this kind of double life of being in the public eye and then at home.

[Afua Hirsch]

And it's almost a triple life, because as well as his public Persona, his private Persona, he's also got the fictional narrative in the books he creates that are very real to him. And of course, he doesn't waste any true life events when it comes to mining fact for fiction. So the death of Mary inspires various characters throughout his work. We'll see Rose Maylie in Oliver Twist, who falls ill but then recovers. And you can't help but wonder if that was a kind of what if rewriting of a happier outcome for Mary. And then, of course, Little Nell in the Old Curiosity Shop, which he begins a couple of years later. It's hard not to see parallels with his view of Mary and her character in Nell, who has a really tragic end.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So after Mary's funeral, Dickens and Catherine, his missus, he calls a bit like Guy Ritchie Madonna, isn't it? And they rent a farmhouse in Hampstead, which sort of was the countryside in those days. Gosh, I mean, he'd have done well if he'd bought his property rather than writing books. And they go there to recover. And it's around this time he meets and becomes friendly with John Forster, who becomes Dickens closest friend and in fact, his first biographer as well. And they have a very intense relationship, a bit like Dickens had with Mary. Mary had read the Pickwick Papers before it was published. He'd given her a copy of Oliver Twist before it had gone off to the publisher as well. And he uses Forster in a sort of similar capacity. They are more or less inseparable until Forster gets married. And Forster, in fact, is the first person outside his family that he tells the warts and all story of his family to.

[Afua Hirsch]

And unfortunately for him, Forster becomes, in effect, his literary agent. And the role doesn't exist in such a formal sense at the time, but that's essentially what he is. And I say unfortunately, because you wouldn't wish the job of Dickens's literary agent on your worst enemy. What a total nightmare.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Why not?

[Afua Hirsch]

Because he's constantly falling out with his publishers. I mean, his entire life is a String of never ending battles against the publishing industry. And I'm not saying he's in the wrong, because this is an era before there are any clear rules about intellectual property, about copyright and royalties. And an author like Dickens can expect to be completely fleeced and have his work pirated and copied without any credit. But on top of that, he's always resentful that he's not making enough money from his work. And even when that's a legitimate grievance, the way he goes about handling it is not. I mean, you're an author, Peter. I'd love to know what you think, but I don't think that's the ideal way of navigating those grievances.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

I love you're throwing me under the bus. I'm an author as a best selling sitting opposite you, best selling author. I think the point of having someone in the middle is to shield you from some of those discussions and also to allow you to have greater leverage that you can depersonalize those criticisms. I mean, you're absolutely right. Dickens has a very strong idea, both of money, but also what his own value is. And I suppose in its sort of rawest form, trying to push to get better terms from your publisher. You know, the publisher can always say no. In fact, Dickens does it a bit like George Michael when he stopped recording for Sony. You know, just refuses to work to force his publisher to come back to the table and given better pay. And I think that those questions you mentioned about copyright and intellectual protection we sort of slightly take for granted in a world where now things like AI are cannibalizing the way in which anybody who's in the creative industries can see their work ripped off by robots.

[Afua Hirsch]

Yeah, in a way we're going back to the wild west of Victorian publishing. But you know, I actually wonder, as you're saying that if Dickens, if he lived now, would he have been a self published author? Because one of the things he really resents, which I can totally relate to, is that as the creator of these works, you actually earn a really small fraction of the value. You know, the royalties you get paid are what's left after the publisher's taken the lion's share. And what you're paying for is the platform and the distribution and the marketing that the publishers put into the work and the credibility of their name and their brand. But obviously the more famous Dickens becomes, the less he needs anyone else's name or credibility. And you do wonder had the opportunities that exist now to just reach your audience directly and keep all of the profits. If he would have actually jumped at.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

That, he'd be on Substack.

[Afua Hirsch]

He'd be on Substack and Patreon and doing his own speaking tours.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So Dickens, as well as writing a lot and never missing a deadline, except for once, he's something of a party animal. He loves a drink, he makes a mean gin punch and he's quite flamboyant in the way he dresses. Almost like a dandy. Large collars, extravagant waistcoats. I guess because he's saying that he's successful and he wants to show that he's come a long way from the workhouse and he wants to wear the trappings of his success. And Dickens is enjoying himself because as well as the adulation, he's unbelievably productive. I mean, the list of things he writes in this little window, it's kind of amazing.

[Afua Hirsch]

This is the definition of work hard, play hard, incredible productivity between 1836 and 1842. So that's just six years. He publishes the Pickwick Papers, Oliver Twist, Nicholas Nickleby, the Old Curiosity Shop, Barnaby Rudge and Martin Chuzzlewit.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

All major novels to generate that many best selling books that are still famous 200 years later. You know, Dickens stands in a category all of his own. And I guess the single most famous scene of all of Dickens work is a high bar.

[Afua Hirsch]

Cause there's a few.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

This one is, I promise you. Definitely. We're gonna agree, aren't we? This is the most famous scene from Dickens.

[Afua Hirsch]

Okay, let's hear it first.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

And this you might remember or know from the famous 1968 movie with Mark Lester as Oliver and Jack London as the Artful Dodger. There are lots of other productions and versions of Oliver Twist, but everybody knows this scene.

[Narrator/Reader]

The evening arrived. The boys took their places. The master stationed himself at the copper. His pauper assistants ranged themselves behind him. The gruel was served out. The gruel disappeared. The boys whispered each other and winked at Oliver while his next neighbors nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger and reckless with misery. He rose from the table and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said, somewhat alarmed at his own temerity, please, sir, I want some more. The master was a fat, healthy man, but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupefied astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralyzed with wonder, the boys with fear.

[Paige de Sorbo]

What?

[Narrator/Reader]

Said the master at length in a faint voice. Please, sir, replied Oliver, I want some more.

[Afua Hirsch]

Okay, yeah. I will give it to you. I think this is definitely a strong candidate for most famous scene. And I think, like his other very famous scenes. You don't need to have read a single Dickens novel to know this scene, know the characters. It's become part of the culture. And that's the thing about Dickens, right? He's so transcended literature. I mean, he has become an author of culture in Britain particularly.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

But this must also have something to do with his childhood. You know, the Please, sir, I want some more speaks to Dickens in the workhouse. It speaks to generations of people dying too young. It speaks to those five dead children that Dickens saw when he was a boy. You know, the idea that there's enough to go around. And the reason why people don't get enough is because they're not given it by higher ups who don't want to share. That's what this scene is saying. And I think that's why it strikes such a chord with audiences in cinemas, in theaters and people who read this book. Is that it's about inequality, injustice. And the ability to correct systems that doesn't get taken.

[Afua Hirsch]

Just talking about another novel in this era, Nicholas Nickleby. I think that some of the pervasive negative PR around British boarding schools. Have their origins in this novel. Because it's really an attack on schools where children are just dumped also, again, at the cruelty of these adults who torment them completely unnecessarily. And he creates this incredible villain, the headmaster, Mr. Squeers. One of Dickens famous comic creations. Who is so absurd with his cruelty and meanness. And just really creates that setting of hell on Earth. I'm just really curious, Peter. Cause you went to a boarding school. If that was something that schools were conscious of distancing themselves from. Did children come to boarding school with fears that it might in any way resemble the Dickensian portrayal?

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Yes. Yes. And, you know, I was in a generation where a lot of teachers from boarding schools ended up in prison. I mean, most didn't. But, you know, the abuse that went on was terrific. Sometimes by boys against other boys. I was at all boys schools the whole way through my school career. But, I mean, very subversively. When I was about 15, there was a school play every term. And Nicholas Nickleby was put on. And the echoes was very obvious if you're in the audience about what abuse looked like, what teaching looked like. The ways that privilege could all go wrong. But I also recognize that experiences in the latter part of the 20th century. Were really not like the middle of the 1840s. So it was all a kind of dramatized version, an exaggerated version and a kind of warning of what would happen. But I mean, every time I have seen Nicholas Nickleby, every time I've read Nicholas Nickleby, I get incredibly emotional with the character of Smike, who is sort of the abused, taken advantage of. If you haven't read the book, there's a spoiler alert. He dies at the end. And I've always found that difficult to read because it speaks to the ways in which people can just get cast off to one side. So I don't know whether that was just a boarding school experience, but it opens that discussions about unfairness and abuse that I think we see everywhere.

[Afua Hirsch]

I think to Dickens, great credit, the fact that that was performed at your boarding school and used as a tool for exploring what boarding school could be and shouldn't be, speaks to how Dickens gave us a language for critiquing these institutions.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

What Dickens is trying, I think, to say is that these are all preventable and that there can be characters who stand up against authority and that there is social justice in the end. Because typically with Dickens, not always, but typically bad people get punished. And there is a kind of strong sense of Christian morality in Dickens work that is trying to say that if you work hard enough, if you persevere, if you keep on going, you can get these things corrected. And that that is a very hopeful mess.

[Afua Hirsch]

So let's talk about the Old Curiosity Shop, because when it comes to good characters having good ends.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Go on.

[Afua Hirsch]

Little Nell, a 13 year old who lives with her gambling addicted grandfather in his Curiosity Shop and who is in a classic Dickensian creation, the picture of goodness, innocence, virtue. She's a very one dimensional character. And if I have one big critique of Dickens, it's that he loves a one dimensional female character in his work. But it's Forster who persuades Dickens that Nell should have a pretty grisly ending.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

But Dickens didn't want to do that.

[Afua Hirsch]

He didn't want to do it. And he did it in a way at his cost. Because he's not creating these sterile, disconnected pieces of fiction. He's fully immersed and invested in his writing and the emotional exertion and heartbreak of killing off Nell. Sorry. Also spoiler alert to anyone who hasn't read. The Old Curiosity Shop is so intense for him that it actually makes him ill.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So week after week the story builds up. It's a bit like the cliffhangers in EastEnders. You know, you can see it coming and people start to talk about it. They start to write to Dickens to ask him to change the ending, to not do what looks like it's inevitable. And he's incredibly good at dragging things out and making people think that there might be another way out of it. And people start to write to him from Britain, all over the uk, all over the United States, begging Dickens to save her.

[Afua Hirsch]

There's this incredible scene in the US where people are actually waiting at the docks for the ship to arrive with the latest print installment of the Old Curiosity Shop and praying out loud that Nell will live.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Dickens has become a star. I mean, what that tells you is that he is a recognizable household name. How you can monetize that, how you can use that power of what you choose to write. It's almost like a game that you can drag it on for yet another episode. And you know, he is so well that the young Queen Victoria who's crowned around about this time in 1837, she reads Oliver Twist when it comes out and she calls it excessively interesting. But Dickens isn't interested in the Queen at all. He's a staunch republican and then in fact he gets a chance to go and tour America, as we'll see. But he believes that there's a different way of political engagement that doesn't involve hierarchies because he's an outsider. Right. So, you know, amongst the things he objects to is the death penalty. He stands against that for most of his life. He speaks out against public executions. It can't have been easy when you gone to see one as he did in 1840.

[Afua Hirsch]

Although I would say, and this is classic Dickens, he's never straightforward. He is a critic of the death penalty, he is a critic of the penal system. But he later in life advocates that execution should be private within prisons rather than public, which isn't a completely clear cut stance against them. And even on prisons, he actually later disagrees with other reformers who think there should be more of an emphasis on education and rehabilitation. He's very firmly of the idea that that prison is for punishment. I think he would have sided with the more right wing press in some of their attitudes today.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Okay. But you know, he's got to catch a break somewhere, right? And I do understand the ways in which we can revisit the 19th century and think about how progressives should and could have been more progressive and more joined up. But in terms of his sort of peer group, it's still a voice that is doing something that is challenging the order.

[Afua Hirsch]

It is. There are others of his contemporaries who are challenging it more in some way, ways. But having said that, and we will get to this, the contribution he makes personally to reform and to drawing the public's attention to unfairness is so unparalleled that I think you're right, we should be generous in our interpretation of his complexities.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Right. And I mean, I think Dickens, the way we read it when I was younger and read it today is that there is a social message there about thinking about society in all of its different layers and about the fact that life is very, very, very difficult for a lot of people and they're the majority. And I think that's one of the reasons why Dickens is also drawn to the idea of America. I mean in January 1842 he books tickets for himself and his wife to go to the United States because that idea of a new utopia forming with all of its imperfections that we're going to talk about feels like there's a new world, there's a new way. And he has a farewell dinner in Liverpool which I quote, this is what they have, as I would always insist, this is my rider before I. You go to before anytime.

[Afua Hirsch]

Before you hop off to Kazakhstan, it.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Has to be Turtle cold punch, hock, claret and champagne.

[Afua Hirsch]

I'm gonna sound like I've got a drinking problem. The things I would pick off that menu are the punch, the claret and the champagne.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Anyway, they board the paddle steamer Britannia and they have a stormy 18 day crossing of the Atlantic.

[Afua Hirsch]

Dickens is keen to see, as he puts it, the republic of my imagination. And the Americans are more than keen to welcome him. But will it be all, he hopes?

[Hannah Berner]

Hannah Berner. Are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

[Paige de Sorbo]

Paige desorbo? They are Tommy John and yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best.

[Hannah Berner]

Holiday gifts so generous.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear and best fitting loungewear.

[Hannah Berner]

So nothing for your bestie?

[Paige de Sorbo]

Of course. I'm getting my dad, Tommy John. Oh, and you of course.

[Hannah Berner]

It's giving holiday gifting made easy.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy. Gift everyone on your list, including yourself with Tommy John and get 25% off your first order right now at TommyJohn dot comfort.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

25Th of January 1842, Tremont House Hotel, Boston, Massachusetts. Charles Dickens sits at a table writing every now and again. He looks up directly at Francis Alexander, an artist who is painting his portrait. Dickens's thick, dark Hair. Hair sits between the bottom of his ears and his chin. The natural curls giving him a foppish look. His skin is clear. He's the picture of health and he's being treated like a superstar. He's been in Boston now for three days, but he's not entirely happy. He explains to Mr. Alexander that he was full of enthusiasm when he arrived, dancing through the snow filled streets, taking everything in. But now he feels hounded. Take a look at all these invitations, he says, pointing to a pile of letters from every part of the country. Individuals and institutions, universities, Congress, Senate balls, dinners, assemblies. It feels endless. Dickens doesn't know how to handle them all. And it's not just the letters. Crowds of people pour in and out of the hotel looking for him. Others line the streets just to catch a glimpse. As if to prove his point. There's a knock on the door. Without waiting for a response, it opens and several women rush into the studio. They're armed with scissors and they want a piece of his fur coat. One even asks for a lock of Dickens hair. He decides to placate the women. I'm going to have to refuse your request. I don't want to set a precedent because I may end up totally bald. The women are shooed out of the room. Both Dickens and Alexander breathe a sigh of relief. But it can't carry on like this.

[Afua Hirsch]

So what happens next is that the portrait painter, Francis Alexander has a young man studying under him who he gives to Dickens as a secretary who helps him for the rest of the tour. And he needs that buffer because as we can see, he's just under such demand. He's gone to America to sell books, to give talks, to meet fans. But when it happens, and it's that overwhelming, sometimes it's just too much. You need to be protected and you need to have boundaries. And it's almost like he's gone to America without being prepared for the level of adulation he's going to experience. I mean, this is basically just another day in your life.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Yeah, I don't think, I don't think anyone can quite. I understand the pressure that Dickens was under. You know, it's adulatory and it's kind of, you know, unbelievable. But at the same time you also feeling you're letting everybody down. Cause you can't be everywhere all the time. So Dickens, he begins a six month tour in Boston and he goes through Worcester, Springfield, Hartford to New York. And the crowds are everywhere. You know, In New York, 5,000 people apply for tickets for a boss Ball and the band plays See the conquering hero come and I guess no matter how high a view you have of yourself wealth, it's hard to have a personal and private life within those contexts where you're constantly working.

[Afua Hirsch]

I kind of love that. Where he goes to Washington and meets the President, John Tyler, not one of the best remembered presidents, but when the President then invites him to dinner in the White House, he turns it down. So he's not only trying to create boundaries with regular fans, he's really getting to the point where he's had enough. So much so that he turns down.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

The President, but he turns out the US President, John Tyler, because he found Tyler very boring and, you know, some credit credit to doing that because what do you achieve by having dinner with the President apart from feeling flattered, you know. So Dickens, I think it's quite brave that he's his own man, but that clamor, I mean, it's sort of Taylor Swift esque or Beatles, like, you know, the fact that there are people gathering around and that's. That hasn't happened to an author before. I mean, that's one thing if you're a politician or if you're a ruling monarch or, you know, you're super famous, but to be a kind of creative hero like this, it's the first time that's really happened. This is a kind of product of mass media. It's a product of connections. It's the product of the fact that the world has becoming smaller. So perhaps you could see him as being the first or one of the first global celebrities.

[Afua Hirsch]

And he's in America in 1842. This is still very much the era of plantation slavery. Millions of African Americans are enslaved on American soil. And the further Dickens travels south, the less enamored he grows of this country and its systems of power. He writes, we are now in the regions of slavery. Spittoons and senators. All three are evils in all countries.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

I think that Dickens is keenly aware of suffering. And in fact, he only gets as far south as Richmond in Virginia before he turns back north too upset by what he sees of slavery Dickens also sees, which is slightly unusual as well at the time. Wandiot Indians as Dickens would have known them, indigenous peoples being pushed off their ancestral lands and describes them as a fine people, but degraded and broken down. And so when Dickens sets sail for home in June 1842, he is disillusioned by his own personal experiences of being mobbed, which is, you know, flattering in one way, but on the other hand, you know, he's just a novelist, but also by this vision that he'd hoped for of seeing an America that was filled with promise and new ways of doing things, actually in many ways is not just a reflection of what he's seen back home in England, but a version that is kidding itself that it's more enlightened. So, you know, his disappointment at the US pours out on the page. He writes a book about his trip called American Notes for Circulation and Edgar Allan Poe calls it one of the most suicidal productions ever deliberately published by an author.

[Narrator/Reader]

The upholders of slavery in America. Of the atrocities of which system I shall not write one word for which I have not had ample proof and warrant, may be divided into three great classes. The second consists of all those owners, breeders, users, buyers and sellers of slaves who will, until the bloody chapter has a bloody end, own breed, use, buy and sell them at all hazards, who doggedly deny the horrors of the system in the teeth of such a mass of evidence as never was brought to bear on any other subject. Who would at this or any other moment gladly involve America in a war, civil or free, foreign. Provided that it had for its sole ending object the assertion of their right to perpetuate slavery and to whip and work and torture slaves unquestioned by any human authority and unassailed by any human power who, when they speak of freedom, mean the freedom to oppress their kind and to be savage, merciless and cruel.

[Afua Hirsch]

So on the one hand, I think it's easy to see Dickens as somebody who was on the right side of history when it comes to slavery, feeling appalled by that system and positioning himself against it. But I would add a big caveat to that, because he actually later, like many other liberals in Britain, was sympathetic towards the south in the American Civil War. And lots of of liberal Brits felt that it was actually the south who were preserving the tradition that was more recognisable to Britain as former colonists than the progressive North. So he wasn't a clear cut antagonist of the slavery system. His views about race in general are too oversimplified by a narrative that he was an anti slavery advocate. He had the conventional colonial views of his generation. He regarded colonized peoples as inferior races. He wrote about that a lot. He wrote very disparagingly of black characters. There are very few black characters in his books, but the ones that exist are not real people. They're very one dimensional almost caricatures. And he never really questioned the idea that Britain had these colonies apart from these observations of the south during the 1842 trip. He didn't apply that consistently to colonised people, to black people, to indigenous people. And. And I think that that was a real failure of his curiosity, his imagination and his integrity, actually, given that his whole work was supposed to be about unfairness.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Look, I definitely can't argue with you, Afra, about that, and you're quite right. But having said that, I do think that the platform and the megaphone that Dickens has to write in the way that he does, does stand him out as being unusual. He didn't have to write about his experiences. He could have, you know, not monetized it. Maybe, if you're cynical. I mean. I mean, it doesn't stop Americans buying the book. 50,000 copies sell in two days. That extract we heard is. It's horrific. But others aren't doing that and they're not using their platform to do the same kinds of things. So I do think that Dickens views could have been more rounded, more inclusive that. That prism of the 19th century. It's quite hard to see how he could possibly have been more enlightened because he feels like he's on the edge. When I read this stuff and hear Dickens saying it, it feels like it's radical relative to other men from his. His background from Britain and so on. And of course, looking back in the 19th century in a different way, from the perspective we have today, of course, it's only half of the way down the line, but.

[Afua Hirsch]

And I think you're right, but there were also plenty of contemporaries who were far more critical. I mean, look at something like the Indian Mutiny that was happening in the 1850s. He sided with the colonial Brits and that if you look at the massacres that were taking place in Jamaica, Britain's slavery plantations, he didn't apply the same critique he had towards the American south here, towards Britain, slavery economy that actually had far more enslaved Africans working on plantations under equally, if not more brutal conditions. He supported and sided with the British in those instances, even criticizing the way that some people were critiquing it. So I think it's. It's a really mixed bag and there were plenty of other people who had a much more enlightened perspective on those instances than he did. So it's a real double standard and I think that is part of his legacy.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

Dickens is determined to put his American disappointment behind him. It's not just about slavery and being mobbed. He's also very angry in the United States that his publishers don't pay him enough. And in Fact, there's no real copyright protection in the U.S. so his books get ripped off and he gets angry about that. In fact, he goes to court in the United States to try to challenge any. But he comes back to England with his wife Catherine. They got on very well on the trip, perhaps because she hadn't been pregnant for once. She's got four children by 1843 and they've moved into a bigger house in London, just up the road from Regent's Park, 1 Devonshire Terrace. And it's fancy enough and big enough to have its own Coach House.

[Afua Hirsch]

And 15 year old Georgina, another one of his wife's younger sisters, moves in to help with this now growing family. And again, Dickens takes an immediate shine to her. And this will become one of the lifelong friendships of great importance in his life. While that's going on, he makes a new friend who will also be important and that's Ms. Coutts of the wealthy banker family. We still have Coutts bank and it still actually caters to the legal industry in London and around the country. And Ms. Coutts at the time was the heiress of the Coutts fortune and she used a lot of that money for philanthropic purposes. So there was a meeting of mines and her and Dick and Dickens now become co conspirators on how to redistribute some of that private wealth to good causes to help the poor.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

And they set up schools in poor areas called the Ragged Schools. When an actor friend of Dickens dies, he supports his friend's wife and seven children financially. And it's far from the only time he does this. And I think Dickens knows what poverty feels and looks like for children. So he does try to help. But he's making lots of money for himself, as we've mentioned many times. But here's a big, big spender. He has a grand house, grand lifestyle, expanding family, he has to look after his parents, he's involved in his charity. And I guess there's something of his father's echo of income and expenditure not matching.

[Afua Hirsch]

There are two things I want to say here. The first is cause. I've just launched into a big tirade of criticism against Dickens. He is remarkably generous. When somebody close to him dies and leaves a wife and children, he will jump to their rescue. He'll fundraise, he'll donate. Personally, I mean, he really goes above and beyond when there's a cause he thinks is worthy to help way more than most ordinary people or even most rich people would ever do. And the second thing I wanted to say is something I've personally learned from studying Dickens's life. I think his mindset is, I'll spend what I want to spend, but I'll just work more to fund it. That's quite a tempting mindset. And I feel like I may have been guilty of it myself at times. And what I've learned from Dickens is that it's a bad idea. It's a bad idea because. Because no matter how hard you work, if you live beyond your means, you will always be struggling. And it's just remarkable to me that this man who was so famous, so celebrated, so productive, so successful, never really felt like he had enough money. You just feel this heaviness that his outgoings were just endless. And so he just worked more and more. And many of his books are famous and iconic, but not all of them are great.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

No, but he is obviously extremely driven. And, you know, at some point, if you are making lots of money, what's the point having it unless you're spending it? And many of Dickens characters who are very wealthy, the criticism is that they keep it to themselves, you know, what's the point? So I think that that is okay. I think what the problem is is that because he works so hard, is so driven, and he's in the public eye, he starts to draw attention. And sometimes that can be negative and painful. In 1842, he writes Martin Chuzzlewit in instalments, the usual way. And Dickens calls it immeasurably, the best of my story. But the critics disagree, and so do the public. Partly because there's a recession, sales struggle, publishers cut their payments. So in the middle of 1843, he's bruised. Martin Chuzzlewit hasn't sold very well. It hasn't been very well reviewed, and equally has a large wallet that needs filling. In fact, so much so that he has to borrow money. So he spread thin. And what Charles Dickens needs, he needs an idea. He needs a great story that's going to sell and sell. So he takes to his favourite thinking place, the Streets of London.

[Afua Hirsch]

October 1843. London. It's the early hours of the morning and Charles Dickens is pounding the streets. He can't sleep and he has more on his mind than usual. Why has the response to Martin Chuzzlewit been so lacklustre? He's convinced it's one of his best stories. How dare the publishers suggest they reduce his payment? But there's something else that preoccupies him. He's been trying to write a response to the Recent government report on child labour. Children as young as seven working down coal mines for 10, 12 hours a day. He crunches through the autumn leaves, trying to formulate his response. He wants to strike a hammer blow in favor of the poor man's child. Perhaps a pamphlet. No, that's not right. It needs to be something more, something evocative, something that will shake the nation's conscience so that everyone will be appalled by the way children are being treated. It's not a pamphlet. It's something else. He picks up his pace and he starts to feel the excitement, excitement of a new idea. It's a novel. Yes. He starts to laugh. The idea's momentum grows as his feet hit the pavement in regular rhythm. It will be set at Christmas, a time that should be joyous and warm, but that for too many, is swallowed up by poverty and hardship. The story will tackle those two evils, ignorance and want. It will be about a man who's trying to feed his father family, working all the hours there are for a rotten boss. Dickens thinks of potential characters. He's reminded of his sister's son, poor Harry, almost always unwell, physically disabled. Tears roll down his cheeks. Yes, Harry will play a part. He's already been walking for miles. But he keeps going as he pieces together his story of heartbreak and redemption, something that will elude, illuminate the darkest corners of society and maybe inspire change.

[Peter Frankerpoe]

So that is Charles Dickens's probably lifetime eureka moment. It's the idea for a story that is going to be such a surefire hit that nearly two centuries later, it's completely central in the way we think about Christmas. It comes on the TV every single year. Year is probably the way in which most people think about kindness, generosity and what Christmas and Christmas spirit really mean. That's next time on Legacy.

[Hannah Berner]

Hannah Berner. Are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas.

[Paige de Sorbo]

You'Re buying, Paige desorbo? They are Tommy John. And yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts.

[Hannah Berner]

So generous.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear and best fitting loungewear.

[Hannah Berner]

So nothing for your bestie?

[Paige de Sorbo]

Of course. I'm getting my dad, Tommy John John. And you, of course.

[Hannah Berner]

It's giving holiday gifting made easy.

[Paige de Sorbo]

Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy Gift everyone on your list, including yourself with Tommy John and get 25% off your first order right now at TommyJohn comfort.