Peter Frankopan (2:34)

20Th century, one of those people who changed the world, and one of the authors of Fantastic Changes for the Better in the world. Ronald Reagan himself referred to Mr. Gorbachev as his friend and the talk about an evil empire stopped it sent a.

Afua Hirsch (2:53)

Wind of freedom to Russian society. He tried to change the communist system from inside, which became impossible. But the scene in Moscow is low key. This isn't a state funeral. The President of Russia isn't in attendance. There are no parades, and in Red Square, the flags over the Kremlin aren't at half mast.

Peter Frankopan (3:19)

A simple coffin is lowered into the ground. On a rainy day at a Moscow cemetery, a priest swings his thurible as two elderly women, one in a puffer jacket and the other in a floral headscarf. Look on.

Afua Hirsch (3:35)

A survey shows four in five people's views of Mikhail Gorbachev in his home country are negative for them. He's a man who broke up a once proud empire, brought about economic chaos, gave in to America and ultimately paved the way for Putin. Even Stalin is viewed more favorably.

Peter Frankopan (3:56)

How did Gorbachev end up being such a divisive figure? Did he make everything much worse? Was he a man who brought down an empire? And what does this mean for his legacy?

Afua Hirsch (4:19)

From Wondery? I'm AFWA Hersh.

Peter Frankopan (4:21)

I'm Peter Frankopan.

Afua Hirsch (4:22)

And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation they deserve.

Peter Frankopan (4:43)

Mikhail Gorbachev. Episode 1 the Boy from Stavropol.

Afua Hirsch (4:58)

What comes to mind now when we hear the name Mikhail Gorbachev?

Peter Frankopan (5:02)

I think at the time he was a breath of fresh air, you know, here in the West. He was young, you know, that was the first thing apart from that he looked cuddly and had that birthmark, you know, it felt like a breath of fresh air. And it felt like a breath of fresh air in the Soviet Union too. And the Russians today in modern Russia, they think of Gorbachev as a man who was weak and was ideologically compromised, was trying to be a good guy rather than making harder decisions.

Afua Hirsch (5:25)

You do know quite a lot about this subject, don't you, Peter? Both in terms of the history, but also the contemporary perspective inside Russia. So maybe you should tell us a bit about how you speak Russian.

Peter Frankopan (5:37)

Well, I grew up in the Cold War and I wanted to know who these people were, wanted to kill us and why people wanted to point nuclear missiles and, you know, so I was fascinated by the Russian revolution by the 19th century and the kind of. The fact that the dream of a better world was always nearly there in the Russian speaking world. So I was very lucky that I was at a school. I had a Russian teacher and went to Leningrad in Moscow for the first time in 1986. So it's driven a lot of my academic and non academic interests. So, you know, I was driven at first by trying to work out why would there be a world in which two superpowers wanted to kill each other.

Afua Hirsch (6:13)

And a lot of your work on the Silk Road in the countries of Central Asia, in a way, I know that it wasn't seeking to answer the question, what was the consequence of perestroika and the collapse of the Soviet Union? But it still addresses the answer because you paint a picture in your books of what has become of many of those former Soviet states now that they're sovereign republics. And it's a really complicated picture and it is a big part of the legacy of what Gorbachev started with the unraveling of the old Soviet Union.

Peter Frankopan (6:41)

That I think is why these episodes are going to be so interesting to talk about. I think a lot depends on whether you think Gorbachev was responsible for destroying a world or creating a new one, or possibly both. But for sure, Gorbachev is the kind of turning point where the wheels of history and the way in which the Soviet Union transforms into the splintering of 15 republics has driven the decisions of people like Putin to say, we want to put that world back together. Putin very famously said the dissolution of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. And so, you know, Gorbachev played a hugely important part in that. I think, like I said, here in the west, we see that transition as being something that was quite benign and positive and liberalizing. But that's not how it's seen in Russia. It's not how it's seen in the Baltics, in Georgia, in China, where Gorbachev was seen as a fool, as a danger, and as an illiberal man, and represented the worst of the Soviet characteristics rather than the best. So I don't think that that's how we think about Gorbachev here in the West. He was a kind of cuddly figure who was, you know, trying the best he could. But a lot depends on, as we've done with these other series on legacy, going right back to the beginning and thinking about who this man actually was. Mikhail Gorbachev's Life begins on the 2nd of March, 1931 in Privonoye, a village in Stavropol in southwestern Russia, near the border with Ukraine. When Gorbachev is born in the 30s, the Soviet Union is going through a period of profound suffering and famine because demands are being made to export wheat from the Soviet Union to raise Foreign currency. And Gorbachev is born at a time when the great Ukrainian famine that claims millions of lives is taking place. So it's a complicated world. In the 1930s, Stalin has become the undisputed leader. He's able to round up all of his rivals, all of those around him who present threats, including people who've been alongside him throughout the revolution, and have them one by one picked off in show trials. Some are forced into exile, like Trotsky, who then ends up with ice pick in his head in Mexico City. So it's a time of totalitarian power, of the undisputed authority of a single figure.

Afua Hirsch (8:50)

Gorbachev is affected personally by the violence of Stalin's collectivization, isn't he? Two of his uncles and one of his aunts perish in the famine. And both his grandfathers are specifically targeted by Stalin's Great Purge of political opponents and were taken to labor camps, weren't they, Peter? And I've heard Gorbachev speaking about his relationship with one of his grandfathers and how emotional it was for him, both his grandfather being taken away, but also ultimately returning to the family home. And that having a huge impact on his early consciousness.

Peter Frankopan (9:23)

So at this point in the Soviet Union, the problem was you could have a knock on your door any time of day or night and you wouldn't know who'd informed on you about what or why. So the uncertainty was hugely emotionally difficult and challenging. And Gorbachev's maternal grandfather was arrested and tortured. And I think every single family had an experience like that.

Afua Hirsch (9:43)

And the outbreak of the Second World War had a direct knock on effect for Mikhail Gorbachev's young life. His village was occupied by German forces. It's interesting because my perception of the subsequent generations of Soviet leaders is that the war to have had two different effects on them. There is the group who developed a deep hatred of the Germans and also a kind of patriotism born out of the suffering that the Red army experienced in the war. But the second camp, which I think Gorbachev falls into, is that the lesson was just a general abhorrence of violence. And Gorbachev remained, in his narrative anyway, profoundly squeamish, I guess, about the use of violence. He was reluctant to deploy force, obviously he did in some really well known incidences that had lasting impact. But in general he abhorred the use of violence. And I know some of his biographers have put that down to the experience of decimation during the Second World War and just a desire to avoid ever experiencing violence like that again. And I suppose also the revelations that came out when in his adult life about what had truly happened under Stalin, which I know shocked many of the ideological members of the Communist Party, who claim they genuinely hadn't realized the true nature of Stalin's brutality at the time. These all combined to make him somebody who was quite averse to the use of violence.

Peter Frankopan (11:05)

Look, I think that is absolutely how people see Gorbachev. I'd probably take a slightly different view, which is that the reason he didn't use more violence and he did send the tanks into Vilnius, into Lithuania in 91, he did use force in Georgia and the Caucasus, is because he didn't have the courage to follow through. So it wasn't that he was a pacifist, it was that he was reluctant to use force because it might weaken his position by empowering the Soviet forces. I think it was more that he was quite pragmatic and realistic about what the limitations were. But maybe you're right, maybe he was scarred by what he'd seen. But the point, I think, is that when the war ends, he's still a young man. He's only 14, but about 27 million of his countrymen had died, which is.

Afua Hirsch (11:48)

You know, that's a huge number. I mean, it's hard to take in enormous.

Peter Frankopan (11:51)

So during the war, his school is closed for a couple of years, and when it reopens, his family is so poor he's got hardly anything to wear and no books. And his father is keen that Michael becomes a good student. So he tells his wife, sell everything we have to buy books because Michael must study.

Afua Hirsch (12:08)

And Michael does go back to school. And he is a good student. He's ambitious and he becomes active in the Young Communist League. And as he approaches his late teens, his drive and ambition are getting noticed by others.

Peter Frankopan (12:28)

July 31, 1948. Stavropun, Soviet Union. Mikhail Gorbachev grips the combine harvester's enormous wheel as it jerks along a vast wheat field. Quivering yellow stalks stretch out in every direction. Above, an empty sky glows pink in the evening light. He rubs his eyes, fighting off his body's need for sleep. For weeks, he and his father Sergei, have been working up to 20 hours a day trying to break that grain harvest record. If successful, they'll receive an award from Joseph Stalin himself. Mikhail knows it could be life changing. He rubs his calloused hands. Laboring day and night makes him strong, cements his socialist work ethic. But he believes he's destined for more than toil and sort a Change in tone of the engine jerks him from his reverie. Acrid smoke seeps from a side panel. He sees his father racing towards him, a look of alarm on his face. He remembers him returning home from the war. Michael had been told he'd been killed. Seeing him alive was the happiest moment of his life. As they hugged, his father told him, we fought and then we ran out of fight. That's how you must live now. His father is famous for his skill on the combine and he's sharing his expertise with his son, showing him how to strip and reassemble machine parts. Over time, their bond has deepened. By the time a panting Sergei reaches him, Michal has identified and fixed the problem. Sergei breaks into a grin, white teeth sparkling against his dirt covered face. I see I taught you well. Sergei pats him on the back. As Mikhail retakes his seat, he fires the engine. They won't stop until record is theirs.

Afua Hirsch (14:25)

And indeed the record is theirs. And for this feat, Sergei is awarded the Order of Lenin and his son the Order of the Red Banner of Labor. Maybe you like cooking, maybe you don't. Either way, the new Blue Apron is for you. Because along with our classic meal kits, we're offering new pre made and one pan meals to help you get dinner on the table fast. And now there is no subscription needed so you can just order and enjoy. Do delicious food your way. Shop 100/Meals@blueapron.com Get 50% off your first two orders with code apron50. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com Terms 4 more the holidays.

Peter Frankopan (15:16)

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Afua Hirsch (16:13)

And while at university, Gorbachev becomes a full member of the Communist Party. He does well at university, but it's not all work and no play. In 1951, at a dance, he meets a philosophy student from a small village near Mongolia. She had something magnificent about her, gorbachev recalled in a documentary in 2012. She was like a princess.

Peter Frankopan (16:36)

The only problem for Gorbachev is that his princess, Raisa Titarenko, is engaged to another man. That relationship breaks down, though, and eventually he wins it over during visits to museums and art galleries. One day they're caught in a thunderstorm in a Moscow park, and in his own words, he hugged her clumsily and then passionately started kissing her.

Afua Hirsch (16:56)

The couple are married while still at university, celebrating the wedding in a student hostel. But Raisa certainly isn't going to be the sort of wife hanging around quietly in the background, as we'll discover later.

Peter Frankopan (17:07)

Gorbachev graduates in 1955 with a distinction after a regime approved final paper on the advantages of the Soviet system over bourgeois democracy. Sounds like a good move. He wants to stay in Moscow, where Raisa is studying for a PhD but the jobs on offer don't suit him. So he returns to Stavropol with his wife, where they set up home in a single room and take long hikes into the countryside.

Afua Hirsch (17:31)

When his first job in Stavropol doesn't work out, he gets a job with the Young Communist League and becomes the deputy director of the agitation and propaganda department. Doesn't sound sinister at all, does it?

Peter Frankopan (17:43)

Peter Sounds great. I'm after that job from LinkedIn profile. From there, he works his way up through the ranks of the local party and is being marked out as a future star.

Afua Hirsch (17:53)

While all this is going on, there are big changes in the leadership of the Soviet Union. The Kremlin's cold stone walls, the eerie face of Moscow, a howling wind and snow. Adding to the somber picture is the description accompanying the announcement that the most powerful dictator in history has come to the inevitable end. In 1953, Joseph Stalin dies and a power struggle ensues about who will take over. One man emerges victorious Khrushchev had good reason to smile. With or without elections, he was more.

Peter Frankopan (18:23)

Firmly than ever in the driver's seat.

Afua Hirsch (18:25)

Supreme ruler of all the ussr, first.

Peter Frankopan (18:28)

Man since Stalin to become both premier and party boss.

Afua Hirsch (18:36)

So Khrushchev emerges victorious from this power struggle, and it's an opportunity for change. But what kind of change does the Khrushchev era bring in?

Peter Frankopan (18:43)

Peter well, the single most important thing is that in 1956, at the 20th Party Congress, Khrushchev gives a speech where he denounces Stalin, and he explains that Stalin has overseen a reign of terror, that agricultural production, manufacturing Targets have all been fudged. Nothing's really been true. And this is time for the Soviet Union to take on a completely new direction that produces huge shock. Khrushchev tries to do these big reforms. He oversees the confrontation with the United States over Cuba that takes the world to the brink of global catastrophe. Also does a series of major agricultural reforms that turned out to be spectacular failures with, in fact, the Soviet Union having to ask the United States to import food. And that leads to Khrushchev being pushed out of the way. So that kind of flash in the pan moment brings in a whole new idea about how should the Soviet Union can it reform? Because when you bring in a reform, it looks like things go wrong rather than right. And by the late 1960s, Khrushchev has been replaced by Brezhnev and Gorbachev. He's frustrated at what he thinks of as a kind of paralysis. And so he thinks it's time to stop, get out of politics and to go back into academia. But he does stick with what he's doing and is rewarded by being put second in command of the party in Stavropolis and is elected to the Supreme Soviet, the highest body of state authority.

Afua Hirsch (20:03)

And Gorbachev nurtures good relationships with the Soviet top brass and praises the new leader, Leonid Brezhnev, in his speeches. And he starts taking holidays with the head of the kgb, which must be a fairly decent career move.

Peter Frankopan (20:16)

So Gorbachev, as a kind of next generation, is sort of slightly being scouted out. So they think he's sufficiently reliable to send him as part of a Soviet delegation to Western Europe. And that opens his eyes to the possibilities and to what reality looks like in other parts of the world.

Afua Hirsch (20:36)

June 1977. Nice, south of France. Mikhail Gorbachev inhales the warm, salty breeze wafting through the car's open windows. Beside him, race. His oversized sunglasses reflect the glittering ocean. For weeks, they've been touring the country, part of a delegation sent to strengthen ties with France's Communist Party. As they glide past a marina full of yachts, their host, Alain, talks. France is ready for socialism. The current Prime Minister d' Estaing just scraped through in the last election. The bourgeois little shit. Gorbachev feels a ripple of alarm. Back home, such open disdain for political leaders would be dangerous. Alain swings the car onto a wide street. Apartments peak from leafy gardens. He pulls into a driveway and takes them up a flight of stairs. Please, make yourselves at home. Inside, Gorbachev takes in the sleek, modern decor, tasteful furniture, luxury appliances. In a clean, sparse bedroom. A balcony overlooks the sea. You have a beautiful home. We are honored to be here. Alain laughs. This is my summer house. I live in Paris most of the time. Gorbachev can't hide his surprise. You bought this place? Alain shrugs. It really wasn't so expensive. There's no law against it here. Gorbachev looks onto the palm lined promenade. The boutiques selling expensive clothes, souvenirs. The decadence is undeniable. The assumption that socialism is superior to what he witnesses here rings hollower with each trip. If he could harness the dynamism of the west, infuse it in Soviet institutions, it might inspire action in its leaders. And if he bides his time, climbs the ranks, he might one day be close enough to power to turn his thoughts into action.

Peter Frankopan (22:39)

Well, so these epiphanies on the foreign trips are interesting. I think the idea that a house in the south of France was not that expensive. He got in early and got in lucky for today as well. But we see the same thing happen later on in the series with Boris Yeltsin. What about the Soviet Union in the 1970s?

Afua Hirsch (22:55)

It sounds like a very difficult place to live and work. The lack of consumer goods, the poor quality of consumer goods, the poor work ethic. Just the complete failure of the command economy to respond to what the people of the Soviet Union actually need and to create workplaces, industries, cultures of productivity that actually serve the Union. And that bears out in descriptions of the workplace and the kinds of things that people could buy. I mean, the horrible stories of supermarket shopping always scar me. Just these kind of like bluish hulks of meat that have been sitting there for God knows how long. And the inability of agriculture to distribute the goods that people need around the country. It's not a famine like anything that was seen under Stalin, but it just sounds miserable.

Peter Frankopan (23:45)

Yeah, so much of the budget is going on defense, you know, on space programs that have, you know, some value in terms of missile industries and the military capability against the United States. But it comes at a huge cost, as you say, inefficiency, corruption, inertia, a lack of motivations. And the things that really suffer are things like education and healthcare. Those are the ones that are really damaging over the long term. And that sort of suppression of all thought, of all expression in public. It's basically a new elite that sits at the top, that has a different experience to 99% of the population.

Afua Hirsch (24:22)

And there's almost nothing that speaks as starkly to how bad things were than how easily Soviet leaders were Seduced just by simple trips to the west, just seeing pineapples on a supermarket shelf or holiday homes that people owned by the seaside blew their minds. And by the end of 1978, Gorbachev, who's been making these foreign trips, is now head of the Stavropol Party. And the call comes from Moscow that it's time for him to move to the capital to become secretary of the Central Committee, the executive leadership of the Communist Party.

Peter Frankopan (24:56)

Yeah, so this is big time. And the appointment comes directly from Brezhnev himself. And you know, not everybody approves of Gorbachev. Some of the party top brass thinks he's a bit too independent minded, a little bit too clever and a little bit too smug. But he has a key ally in Yuri Andropov, who is being tipped to take over from the ailing Brezhnev. Andropov is head of the KGB as a useful friend to have been on holiday with. Abrezev is now in his 70s. Those eyebrows are getting even bushier and bigger. And he's not in the greatest health, physically or mentally. We think he probably had a stroke of some kind and is more or less on sort of puppet mode for the last decade of his life.

Afua Hirsch (25:33)

The Gorbachev's elevated status is rewarded with a musty old dacha outside of Moscow to live in. But as his rise continues, they eventually settle in a brick built house in the city and take in the culture of the capital, including the Bolshoi and the numerous museums and theaters. Raisa finds it hard to settle, though, not least because she's much younger than the dowdy wives of the rest of the leadership. She spends her time attending academic conferences and starts to study English.

Peter Frankopan (26:01)

Gorbachev gets promoted to become a full member of the Politburo in October 1980, and he can now position himself and see himself as a future leader. But privately, he's appalled by the state of the Soviet Union. The rationing, the lack of consumer goods, the inefficiencies of industry and agriculture.

Afua Hirsch (26:19)

But soon enough, Mikhail Gorbachev, the boy from Stavropol, is going to get his chance to reform the system from the very top.

Peter Frankopan (26:38)

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Afua Hirsch (27:32)

But the reality of the decrepit figure who appears on the balcony to have a red ribbon pinned on him by a young girl couldn't be more different. Brezhnev looks like he's been stuffed and operated by a machine. The rest of the aging high command alongside him scarcely look any better. The following year, Brezhnev is dead at the age of 75.

Peter Frankopan (27:53)

Yeah, I mean, it's very pale, male and stale and all elderly and, you know, very hard to imagine how young loyal Soviets or others are going to be inspired by seeing them all standing up, watching the parades happen. But one who's there is Yuri Andropov, former head of the kgb, who gets the top job following Brezhnev. But he's also not well. He's also old, and just a few months after taking office, he suffers a kidney failure and spends the rest of his of his life in hospital. So within 18 months, the Soviet Union is looking for yet another leader before his death.

Afua Hirsch (28:25)

Andropov indicates that he wants Mikhail Gorbachev to take over, but he's made to wait. First, another member of the old guard, Konstantin Chernenko, gets his chance. Problem is that even before taking office, Chernenko, a heavy smoker, is terminally ill. He can barely read the eulogy to his predecessor, let alone run the Soviet Union effectively.

Peter Frankopan (28:48)

It's comical by this stage, and within a year, Chernenko's also dead. And so, finally, in March 1985, Gorbachev's time has come.

Afua Hirsch (28:56)

So Mikhail Gorbachev is the new leader of the Soviet Union. At 54, he's the youngest since Stalin. He's actually still not all that well known to the public, but there's widespread relief that at least he appears to be fit and healthy.

Peter Frankopan (29:10)

And to give a further sense of the fresh, youthful start, Gorbachev removes some of the older members of the polituro and promotes new faces, among them a man born in the Ural Mountains by the name of Boris Yeltsin. He'll turn out to be a serious thorn in Gorbachev's flesh before too long.

Afua Hirsch (29:27)

In the west, much of what goes on in the Soviet Union is still a mystery, as is the Russian language. The closest they've come to Soviet culture is watching the 1980 Moscow Olympics on TV. But soon there are two words that everyone comes to know and that will become indelibly associated with Mikhail Gorbachev, glasnost and perestroika.

Peter Frankopan (30:02)

Gorbachev introduces the concept of perestroika, or restructuring, in 1985 to try and revitalize the moribund Soviet economy, which is run by a vast and opaque bureaucracy. Glasnost, or openness, follows a year or so later, allowing some criticism of the state and its apparatus. And up until now, this has been strictly forbidden.

Afua Hirsch (30:24)

The reforms are not about dismantling Communism completely, although whether Gorbachev is really a Communist is open to debate. But the reforms, certainly economically, are a disaster. No one is happy. For some critics, on one side the reforms go too far, and on the other side, they don't go far enough. I mean, this is always the danger with rocking the boat, isn't it, Peter? I think Gorbachev had the right motives, which were to genuinely try and improve what was quite a catastrophic economic model and situation in the Soviet Union at the time.

Peter Frankopan (30:59)

The first question, though, is, is it open to debate? Is Gorbachev a Communist? You'd think, if he's being promoted by all these gray men who see them as one of their own, and he's the sort of darling and the protege of the head of the kgb, doesn't sound like he's someone who's going to switch on the disco music and tell everyone that it's free love and free enterprise.

Afua Hirsch (31:17)

He's definitely not a capitalist plant who's infiltrated the Communist Party. I think one of the most damning allegations against Gorbachev actually is that he is a Communist, a committed Communist, and he therefore ushered in the collapse of the Soviet Union and capitalism by accident. In a way, I think that's more damning than if it was something he actually intended to do by stealth. And that is such a recurring theme, and I think we're going to see it over and over again, that the decisions he made, he hadn't foreseen the consequences, or he hadn't fully understood the consequences. He hadn't really done the maths on what the ultimate implications would be. And I think that is damning in a leader, because if you need to make reforms, you need to make them, but you need to have foreseen what the outcomes will be and plan for those. And the fact that he always seemed to be on the back foot of what stemmed from his reforms is something that I think we can judge him quite harshly for.

Peter Frankopan (32:10)

In fact, the ideas behind glasnows of openness weren't to encourage people to be able to say whatever they like, but so that the party could learn who was criticizing in public and to work out where they could improve as a result. How could you make this Communist rule better? Perestroika, likewise was about giving the Communist Party the Soviet Union the economic firepower to be able to match its military firepower. So it wasn't about reform for the sake of liberalizing. It was about strengthening Moscow's hand, about strengthening the Communist Party. So remember, Gorbachev was a lawyer, he wasn't economist. So, you know, one of the criticisms made of Gorbachev both during and then after his rule was that he didn't understand what he was doing. And that charge, I think, that you're making afua of him being incompetent is, I think, exactly spot on. It's that he didn't realize what it was that he was doing. He was trying to reform, to strengthen, and it ends up weakening. And that's a blunder rather than, you know, he had everybody else's interests at heart.

Afua Hirsch (33:10)

The covered market in Volgograd at first sight, much like a fruit and veg market anywhere. But look closer and like the shoppers, you see the low quality, the problems.

Peter Frankopan (33:20)

And the fate failures of Soviet agriculture.

Afua Hirsch (33:22)

Which Mr. Gorbachev is determined to eradicate in his defense. The Soviet economy at the time appears fiendishly complicated. I'm not sure there was almost anyone who fully understood it, maybe a handful of the most senior economists, but if that was me, I would be taking very serious advice from that small handful of people before making reforms that have such potential for radical outcomes. Because this is a command economy, it is centrally controlled. So any changes that you make are going to have massive effects. And I think that the charge of incompetence is partly related to his failure to take, and even when he received it, follow sound advice about what was going to stem from these decisions. So Gorbachev's reforms in the short term seem to make matters much worse. And then he strikes a blow at one of the very few success stories of the Soviet economy and something very dear to the hearts of most ordinary citizens.

Peter Frankopan (34:29)

September 3, 1985 Stavropol, Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev wakes with a start. A car engine hums and vibrations. Patients from the road jolt through him. As his mind races to remember where he is, he instinctively reaches out a hand, feeling the reassuring touch of his wife, Raisa. He exhales. A smile gathers itself on his smooth, round face. They've reached Stavropol. Moscow is far behind him now he hopes the familiarity and comfort of his childhood home will revive him. They pass a sign for privoroyi. Raisa squeezes his hand, ready for a hero's welcome. He smiles but doesn't reply. At a junction, they stop in front of a bar. Drinkers crane their necks to see them. Eyes widen when they recognize him, but their expressions quickly turn to scowls. He can guess why. During his first month in office, Gorbachev has looked launched a campaign to combat drunkenness and alcoholism, as well as drastically reducing the state's production of spirits. Restrictions on the sale of alcohol have been introduced in a country where drinking is a national pastime. Opposition to the new laws already dogs his reputation. Arriving at his mother's house, they're swamped by a crowd of family members. Women kiss his cheeks as his hand is pumped enthusiastically by assorted cousins. Soon Gorbachev is fielding questions from all sides. Then a booming voice breaks through the chatter. His younger brother, Sasha, also works in Moscow as an apparatchik, but with a 16 year age gap, they've never been close. Now there's a mischievous look on his face. I heard a good one the other day. A man waiting in the line at the liquor store gets fed up and decides to go to the Kremlin to kill President Gorbachev. Two hours later, he returns, telling the others, I gave up. The line. There is even longer. Gorbachev tries to grin at the joke. He glances around at the table of glasses of water. Mama, couldn't you have put out a bottle of wine? His mother purses her lips and then says curtly, people curse you at weddings and birthdays where there's only soda to drink. I won't have people saying it's all right for him and his mother, but we're not allowed. He holds his mother's gaze. I want a better country for everyone. But we all have to make sacrifices. Why is change so difficult?

Afua Hirsch (37:03)

So let's just get this right. You take control of a hard drinking country and the first thing you do is try and bring back prohibition. What was he thinking?

Peter Frankopan (37:14)

Peter well, the Russians that do famously quite like a drink. But you know, you have CIA reports written in the 1970s, 1980s, talking about how alcoholism is a Russian national pastime, and the US Intelligence tried to gather information from different sources that, you know, they report that 12 to 15% of the population of the Soviet Union adult population are arrested each year for boozing. They assess that 800,000 people lose their driving licenses for being stopped while under the influence of alcohol. That life expectancy is almost a decade shorter in the Soviet Union because the booze is problematic, the vodka in particular. And one of the explanations that the intelligence officers come up with is that, A, it's a national pastime, B, for whatever reasons, the Russians, maybe the Soviets, find it difficult to be both emotionally and sexually open, and alcohol is the way of opening that up. And third, that, you know, the nights in Russia in the winter are really long and they're really dark and they're really cold. So for all sorts of reasons, Gorbachev is trying to improve health, he's trying to improve productivity, he's trying to get rid of some of those bad practices where, you know, not surprisingly, factories with people who are absolutely drunk out of their skins end up having accidents, they end up not meeting their targets, they end up being inefficient. And so that's a kind of logic. The problem is, is that it doesn't go down very well, but also it.

Afua Hirsch (38:39)

Was a huge source of revenue for the Soviet economy, both the production and sale of alcohol, but also taxes on sales of alcohol. So it strikes me, even if there are very good social reasons for wanting to curb the problem of alcoholism, you would need to definitely look at the numbers. And if you're going to remove a huge source of revenue for the economy, you're going to need to work out what it's going to be replaced by.

Peter Frankopan (39:03)

On average, every man in Russia, so not the Soviet Union, because there were different constituent parts, but in Russia would drink a bottle of vodka every four days.

Afua Hirsch (39:10)

Wow.

Peter Frankopan (39:10)

Right. And what happens with the ban on alcohol sales in 1985 is sales fall very dramatically, but the sales of sugar go through the roof because people start brewing moonshine. And moonshine, of course, is likely to be even more dangerous because it's going to be even stronger. It's not going to be process refined in the right way, and it's going to cause even worse health outcomes. So the whole process is a kind of mess. So again, the incompetence of Gorbachev of trying to do something that there's a logic to it. Then Gorbachev, later on in life regrets the ban on alcohol. Not that he did it, but he said we shouldn't have done it in one go. We should have phased it over a period of time. But it leads to protests, people start going on strike, there's unrest in cities across the Soviet Union by workers saying that this is our privilege to be able to drink, and you're stopping us doing it. And why is the state intervening in our pastime? It's nothing to do with you. So it's a pretty bumpy start for the new Soviet leader on the domestic front at least, bringing in these new idealistic new reforms that he thinks might help and then turn out to be counterproductive and in some cases, even worse than that. But on the international stage, it's a different story altogether.

Afua Hirsch (40:17)

Michael Gorbachev has made himself a new friend, a very unlikely new friend, an American. And together they're going to achieve something quite extraordinary, something which will make Gorbachev a hero to millions. That's next time on legacy.

Peter Frankopan (40:34)

I leave Geneva today and our fireside summit determined to pursue every opportunity to build a safer world of peace and freedom.

Afua Hirsch (41:06)

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