Legacy Podcast: Encore – Gorbachev | The Man Who Lost an Empire | Part 4

Hosts: Afua Hirsch & Peter Frankopan
Release Date: January 13, 2026
Episode Focus: The dramatic final act of Mikhail Gorbachev’s leadership, his downfall, and the challenging fate of his legacy across Russia and the world.

Episode Overview

In this encore episode, Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan conclude their four-part exploration of Mikhail Gorbachev, the last leader of the Soviet Union. The episode chronicles the failed 1991 coup, the disintegration of the USSR, Gorbachev’s difficult post-leadership years, and how his legacy is tangled with the aspirations and grievances shaping Russia’s modern trajectory. The hosts scrutinize whether Gorbachev deserves his reputation as a hero of freedom or the scapegoat for Russian decline.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The 1991 Coup Attempt and Soviet Collapse

• The episode opens with a gripping retelling of the August 1991 coup, with Gorbachev held hostage in Crimea by hardline communists seeking to halt his reforms and save the USSR (03:42–06:00).
• Gorbachev’s signature policies, perestroika and glasnost, had unravelled into economic hardship—shortages, soaring inflation, and a breakdown in daily life (05:10–05:30).
• The failure to quell growing independence movements (particularly in the Baltic states) is discussed as practically inevitable:
  “I think the barn door is open and the horse has bolted. … Not sure what Gorbachev could have done.” – Peter Frankopan (06:29)
• Afua highlights Gorbachev’s misreading of national identity’s power within the USSR, suggesting he confused repression for allegiance:
  “He really didn’t understand the strength of nationalist feeling… the Soviet Union never succeeded in obscuring those national identities… they always stayed alive.” (07:34)

The Role of Boris Yeltsin

• The failed coup catapulted Boris Yeltsin, Gorbachev’s nemesis, to center stage as a symbol of reform and defiance, particularly with his public stand during the coup (11:23–11:53): “Yeltsin is the one who strides out to the front and puts his own life at considerable risk… that's an act of great personal bravery.” – Peter Frankopan (10:29)
• Yeltsin’s motivations are dissected as less Machiavellian and more about survival and preventing bloodshed:
  “For Yeltsin, it was about making sure that he too would survive…” (11:53)

The Aftermath: The End of an Empire

• Following the coup’s failure, Communist Party activity was suspended and the USSR quickly dissolved, with Yeltsin leading the new Russia and Gorbachev left without a country to govern (15:44–16:29).
• The iconic lowering of the Soviet flag and Gorbachev’s resignation on Christmas Day 1991 signify the end of an era (16:29).

Gorbachev’s Legacy and Public Persona Post-1991

• Gorbachev’s post-leadership years are characterized by efforts to preserve his ideological legacy, speaking tours abroad, and fundraising—famously including a Pizza Hut commercial (17:45–21:10).
• The Pizza Hut ad is seen as both practical (to fund his foundation) and highly symbolic: “It’s also a powerful metaphor… he has to perform in that ultimate temple of capitalism. A TV ad for Pizza Hut.” – Afua Hirsch (20:04)
• Peter wryly observes, “How the mighty are fallen.” (19:51), and later, “What a coup for Pizza Hut… that you can afford to get a man who's sold out the Communist idea in return for money.” (21:10)

Perception of Gorbachev in Russia and the West

• Gorbachev is celebrated in the West for ending the Cold War, but widely despised in Russia for chaos, economic hardship, and “selling out” the Soviet project (21:40–22:32).
• Afua emphasizes Gorbachev’s personal modesty:
  “He never became a billionaire… He was more interested in keeping his legacy alive than in enjoying the trappings of this new world of consumerism himself.” (22:32)

The Rise of Putin & Unfinished Legacies

• The episode traces the succession from Yeltsin to Putin, with Gorbachev initially supportive but later disillusioned, especially as Russia regressed on freedoms (25:15–26:26).
• Gorbachev’s controversial support for Russia’s annexation of Crimea (“Crimea is Russia. Let someone prove the opposite.”) illustrates the complexity of his positions in his final years (26:26).
• By the time of the invasion of Ukraine, Gorbachev is said to have been “devastated and traumatized by Putin’s actions,” though he made no public comment (27:01).

War in Ukraine: Roots and Repercussions

• Hosts debate how much today’s Russian aggression is rooted in unresolved traumas from the USSR’s collapse: “The Russian sense of grievance is one that traces itself back to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union’s collapse.” – Peter Frankopan (28:33–30:10)
• Afua links the unresolved, unfinished nature of the Soviet breakup to the ease with which Putin has mobilized grievance:
  “It wasn’t deliberate. … In the morass of all those unresolved issues, there are so many grievances, and there is so much potential for this populist, nationalist, aggressive, hawkish mentality.” (30:10)

The Final Judgments

• Gorbachev’s death in August 2022 is met with grand tributes in the West and indifference in Russia—Putin even skips the funeral, citing a busy schedule (32:31).
• The hosts philosophically assess whether anyone could have managed the transition better, comparing the case to China’s distinct approach and success (33:05–34:47).
• On whether the former Soviet republics are better off, Peter contends that, broadly, independence and reform have brought greater freedoms, though progress is varied (36:01).
• Gorbachev’s own ambivalence and lingering bitterness are noted—he refused to take responsibility for the USSR’s collapse, insisting it was not his intention (37:34).

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Gorbachev’s sense of impending doom during the coup:
  “Something is happening. Perhaps something terrible… It may end badly for all of us.” – (03:42)
• On national identity under Soviet repression:
  “He really didn’t understand the strength of nationalist feeling…The Soviet Union never succeeded in obscuring those national identities, it never succeeded in diminishing them.” – Afua Hirsch (07:34)
• On the symbolism of the Pizza Hut advert:
  “You couldn't really think of a better way of illustrating the triumph of American capitalism in the Cold War, and how ultimately Gorbachev has to bow at its feet, even to honour his own legacy.” – Afua Hirsch (20:04)
• On Putin and grievances fueling war:
  “The Russian sense of grievance… traces itself back to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union’s collapse.” – Peter Frankopan (28:33)
• Gorbachev’s final verdicts from the hosts:
  • Afua Hirsch: “Bloody, unsuccessful, Leninist.” (38:47)
  • Peter Frankopan: “Idealistic, naive and incompetent.” (38:54)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Failed 1991 coup and prelude: 03:42–05:47
• Collapse of the USSR and Gorbachev’s resignation: 15:44–16:45
• Pizza Hut commercial and post-Soviet symbolism: 17:45–21:10
• Putin’s rise, Crimea, and legacy debates: 25:15–30:59
• The Ukraine question & connection to Gorbachev: 27:01–32:31
• Final evaluation of Gorbachev’s legacy: 33:05–38:54

Episode Tone & Style

Frankopan and Hirsch blend historical narrative with pointed analysis and occasional wry humor. Their exchanges are candid, sometimes biting, always deeply engaged with the moral, political, and personal complexities of their subject.

Summary for New Listeners

This episode delivers a nuanced, gripping account of Gorbachev’s fall and the unwinding of the Soviet empire, while situating his legacy at the faultline between Western optimism and Russian resentment. It’s both a crash course in recent history and an invitation to wrestle with the ambiguity of “great lives”—what they intend and what they leave behind. Whether you view Gorbachev as a hero, a scapegoat, or a tragic figure, this episode offers rich context, sharp debate, and memorable moments that illuminate why his legacy is still fiercely contested.