Loading summary
Transcript126 lines
- [00:00]
Afwa Hersh
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:08]
Peter Frankopan
A Listener Note this episode contains reference to suicide, sexual abuse, and details of traumatic events that some people might find distressing. Listener discretion is advised, and this is probably not for some younger listeners.
- [00:28]
Afwa Hersh
Hello and welcome to the third episode in our series on Sigmund Freud. We left Freud on a high after a successful lecture tour to the usa. It's like the Beatles breaking America. He's taken psychoanalysis worldwide, and he thinks.
- [00:44]
Peter Frankopan
He'S also found a successor in the enthusiastic young Swiss doctor Carl Jung, who looks set to continue Freud's work. But like that other great partnership of John Lennon and Paul McCartney, there's underlying tension. Can the relationship survive their differences from wandering Goal Hanger I'm Peter Frankopan. I'm Afwa Hersh and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:33]
Afwa Hersh
This is Sigmund Freud, Episode 3 Battle of the Egos.
- [01:48]
Narrator
South of Midnight is a third person action adventure game set in a version of the American Deep south you've never seen before. When a hurricane rifts through Prospero, Hazel is pulled into a magical Southern Gothic world where reality and fantasy are intertwined. Learn the ancient powers of a weaver and face mythical creatures inspired by real folklore as you explore a beautifully handcrafted world featuring a soundtrack inspired by the American South. Unravel the past in south of Midnight Play now on Xbox Series XS Game Pass ultimate in PC and Steam terms apply. See xbox.com subscription terms rated M for Mature so I just used NerdWallet's Card Finder tool to find a better card for me and listeners. This is genius. All you have to do is answer a few questions and in minutes you'll get matched with recommendations tailored to you. I'm discovering cards I didn't even know existed, and the matching was on point. The best part. No research needed. The nerds already did that for us. So if you, like me, want to easily find the right card for you, go to nerdwallet.com to get matched. Today. Terms and conditions apply. Credit products subject to lender approval. See nerdwallet.com for details.
- [03:09]
Peter Frankopan
So Sigmund Freud had found great success in America. His lectures gave people a clear understanding of the ideas that underpinned his work. But in general, though, his theories are still being met with skepticism, criticism, and sometimes Afro. Even with facility as well, as books.
- [03:25]
Afwa Hersh
Freud publishes papers detailing his case studies. This is where many of his ideas first come to light and then inevitably go on to cause controversy.
- [03:34]
Peter Frankopan
One of the cases from this period, one of the most famous of all, is of the Russian aristocrat Sergei Pankiev, who came to be known as Wolfman. And you're gonna see why. Tell our safwa about Wolfman.
- [03:45]
Afwa Hersh
Well, Freud first began treating him in 1910 when Pankeyev was 23 years old. And he presented with sever severe depression, obsessive compulsive rituals and paralyzing guilt. These are symptoms that began in childhood but intensified after he contracted gonorrhea, aged 18.
- [04:04]
Peter Frankopan
And Pankieff had a recurrent dream, which is central to the case. It started when he was 4. He recalled lying in his bed at night when the window opens and he sees a pack of white wolves sitting in a tree in front of the window. The wolves were quite white and. And looked more like foxes or sheepdogs, he said, for they had big tails like foxes and their ears were pricked like dogs when they were attending to something in great terror, evidently had been eaten up by the wolves. I screamed and woke up.
- [04:33]
Afwa Hersh
Freud interpreted this dream as a distorted memory of Paankiev witnessing his parents having sex when he was one and a half years old. The primal scene caused Pankev to misunderstand intercourse as an aggressive act, leading to castration anxiety. The white wolves tales symbolized the paternal threat, while their stillness reflected the child's paralysis.
- [04:59]
Peter Frankopan
And Panka's gonorrhea episode reactivated these repressed emotions, according to Freud. Freud refers to this as deferred action where later events reinterpret early trauma, saying a childhood memory is only recognized in its significance after the event. Now, Aphwa, I'm not a psychoanalyst, right?
- [05:18]
Afwa Hersh
Neither am I.
- [05:18]
Peter Frankopan
No, but you have friends, family. And so I don't wanna say the wrong thing, but am I right in sounding a little bit cagey about the interpretation of wolves sitting in a tree?
- [05:28]
Afwa Hersh
I mean, first of all, there's no right and wrong in psychoanalysis.
- [05:32]
Peter Frankopan
Okay, that's a good answer.
- [05:33]
Afwa Hersh
And secondly, yes, this is a lot to unpack. I mean, to take this dream and interpret it the way Freud has seems quite out there to me. But I will say just first of all, this is a recurring dream. I think it's quite easy for us to accept that there may be some kind of emotional, subconscious information in a recurring dream if it's one that keeps repeating and you're having problems in your Life, it's not wild for us to think that they might be linked. That's something we can give Freud a lot of credit for. It seems obvious now, pioneering then, but it's the way he interprets the dream that is where it starts to get a little bit problematic. It's not just the wolf man. Right, Peter?
- [06:18]
Peter Frankopan
Well, tell us about the notes upon a case of obsessional neurosis from 1909 and Enzer Lanzer, who's better known as Ratman.
- [06:26]
Afwa Hersh
Got a lot of animal men going on here. Ernst Lanza, this 29 year old lawyer meets Freud for analysis and describes being plagued by obsessive rituals and a horrifying fantasy about rats gnawing into his father's anus.
- [06:40]
Peter Frankopan
Hang on, say that again.
- [06:41]
Afwa Hersh
A fear triggered by hearing a story of a torture method involving rats. I mean, I don't think you need to be a psychoanalyst to see that there's obviously something going on here. This dream is a lot.
- [06:53]
Peter Frankopan
I never want to dream again. But Freud, I mean, he is very provocative. So he finds these extreme cases and then projects or tries to interpret. And like you said, okay, there's no right or wrong answering all of this. But Freud's ways of writing these case studies down creates its own sort of new stories.
- [07:10]
Afwa Hersh
You're right, Peter, that Freud's provocative because there are parts of this that seem to us like common sense. The idea that there can be the simultaneous presence of love and hate, I mean, that's something I think we all experience. And this fear of our own thoughts, this idea of the omnipotence of thoughts, that thoughts are powerful enough to cause real harm, this kind of magical belief in their power, which I think is also something that many of us can recognize. You know how when you get stuck in a repetitive negative thought pattern, it can have a real effect on your life and your well being. But Freud doesn't stop there. He's going so much further, talking about this anal sadism and castration anxiety. And he uses this free association method to decide that the rats are tied to Lanza's guilt over financial disputes with his father and debt anxiety. He says the unconscious is the true psychical reality. It's in its innermost nature. It is as much unknown to us as the reality of the external world. So it's this kind of reification of the unconscious. It's a real world that exists and you just have to explore it and find these kind of objective truths that live there. Much as the physical world exists and is an objective place. You can explore reality. And both of those, to modern ears, seem a little bit simplistic, I think it's fair to say.
- [08:31]
Peter Frankopan
But at the same time, it's quite thrilling to try to make sense of things. And it's surely more challenging and ambitious to try to understand something than to just say it has no meaning at all. But there are always dangers to being ambitious because then people can try to dismiss what you're saying. But these kinds of cases, I think, are fundamental to understanding Freud's theories. And, you know, for what it's worth, Pankeyev, who lived until 1979, always credited Freud for helping him overcome some of his symptoms and bringing relief. So in that sense, Freud as a medical practitioner did something really important and valuable. But, you know, Pankev, on the other hand, still did continue to struggle with depression and anxiety throughout his life, despite continuing analysis from Freud and other psychoanalysts.
- [09:14]
Afwa Hersh
I think this is one of the trickiest areas of psychoanalysis, and this is a conversation I have in real life with friends who are in long term therapy, that there's this expectation that it should make, you, quote, better, you know, and that's obviously a very simplistic way of looking at mental health and analysis. But I think with medicine we tend to regard something as effective or not based on whether it cures the problem, whether it relieves the symptoms, whether the problem goes away and you can live a healthy life. And psychoanalysis doesn't work like that. It doesn't necessarily get rid of things. It's more about exploring and understanding them and having strategies for coping with them. So, you know, it's not set in stone, but the fact that we are debating this so much now really gives insight into how much debate there was at the time. And it's in 1908 that one of the most significant and misunderstood theories probably in the whole history of medicine arises. And for that, I think it would be great if we brought back in Professor Brett Carr.
- [10:18]
Peter Frankopan
As you'll know, we've been joined in our journey through the life of Sigmund Freud by the psychoanalyst and Freud scholar, Professor Brett carr. So in 1908, Freud gets a letter from his friend Max Grove outlining new developments about his son Hans, who's developed a crippling fear of horses. Graf's son is so afraid, he doesn't even want to leave the house. But then when he does, he sometimes feels compelled to look at horses. At the same time, Hans father says his son has become obsessed with genitals. His own, his family's and even animals. I imagine Freud thinking about it, puffing on that ever present one of 20 cigars a day, trying to unpack the riddle. Freud concludes the horse symbolizes the father and that his fear stems from a rivalry for his mother's affection. The genital obsession is caused by Hans fear that this forbidden desire will result in him losing his penis, also known as castration anxiety.
- [11:19]
Afwa Hersh
So Brett, the first question has to be how is Freud getting from a fear of horses to a fear of losing one's penis?
- [11:31]
Professor Brett Carr
Freud introduced the concept of castration anxiety, particularly in relation to people of a male background, but it's not unrelated to people of a female background as well. Basically it serves as a metaphor for the sense of attack on one's power and potency as a human being. Little Hans was this five year old boy who developed this tremendous phobia. And yet Freud was very, very struck by the fact that his mother had said to him when she saw him touching his own genitals, which is not unusual for a little boy touching his own body. She said, little boy, if you keep doing that, I'm going to cut it off. And that is a real threat of an actual castration back then, touching one's body, even displaying one's body. In an era where women had to wear corsets and thousands of undergarments. One of Freud's sons, Martin Freud, said he went to the beach many times with his own mother and his aunt, but he never knew if those women had legs because he never actually saw the legs on their body.
- [12:44]
Afwa Hersh
That's a really fascinating insight into the cultural context in which Freud's positing these ideas. Can you give us a sense of how the general public would have reacted to theories like castration anxiety and as we've already discussed, the Oedipus complex. Also one of my personal favourites, penis envy. How would that have gone down in contemporary life?
- [13:06]
Professor Brett Carr
Oh, people were absolutely horrified that Freud used phrases such as penis envy, such as castration anxiety and even genitality. The fact that he said that we all start out on our mother's breasts trying to be breastfed so we can be fed, but that we move to a much more sexually developed phase, either called the phallic phase, later the genital phase, where we engage in adult sexual relationships. He was one of the only people writing directly about sex. You know, back then nobody was allowed to be sexual, to talk about sex, to reveal parts of their body. Freud really invented modern sexuality.
- [13:49]
Peter Frankopan
Tell me Brett, was he a man who had self doubt about his theories. Did he ever readjust?
- [13:55]
Professor Brett Carr
It's very interesting because at least 20,000 of his letters have survived. He probably wrote many more than that. But those pieces of paper might not have survived all these decades. But when you read his private correspondence, the Freud that emerges in my estimation is a very, very slow thinker, a very modest man. He will write to his colleagues and say, I'm considering this idea. What do you think of this? I'm considering that idea. He didn't write like a lecturer when he had enough data. Yes, then he did write like a scientist, he did write like a lecturer, he did write like somebody who needed to publish. But he really absorbed his data from the consulting room in a slow and careful manner. Over time and gradually discussing it with colleagues in seminars, his theories began to emerge in a much clearer way. But I never encountered any correspondence where he was very controlling and said, this is the theory. You're wrong and I'm right. Quite the opposite.
- [15:05]
Afwa Hersh
Brett. I'd love to ask about Freud's personal sexuality and sex life. I read that he stopped having sex with his wife Martha ostensibly for reasons of contraception. And I've also read claims that he may have had same sex relationships with other men at various points in his life. It's fascinating that for someone who's so mainstreamed talking about sex as part of understanding the unconscious, he didn't share freely about his own sexuality outside of the strictures of the phenomena of dreams and the Oedipus complex. What was going on with his personal sex life and does that belong in a conversation seeking to understand him and his legacy?
- [15:47]
Professor Brett Carr
That is a very challenging question to pose and an even more challenging question to answer. We don't know the full story of Freud's sexual life. I can tell you from the research that I've done on sexual fantasies that most human beings never know about anybody else's sexual life. Some people don't even know the full story about their own sexual lives because of such complexity, such ambivalence and such confusion. But based on my lifetime of historical study of Freud's biography and the Freud archives in various libraries and various countries, my sense is that yes, he did have a traditional heterosexual, procreative marriage with his wife Martha Bernays. And yes, he did reveal that after the birth of his sixth child they had pretty much reduced their sexual lives together and maybe the sexuality stopped completely. I do not think there is any clear evidence that he ever had an actual sexual encounter with someone called a male. He did have a lot of investment of emotion in A lot of male relationships. He introduced the concept of bisexuality. He said it is by no means shocking or unusual to be emotionally drawn, even physically drawn to people of either gender. The question about his sexual life that is most on the table under dispute is whether he actually had a long standing affair with his wife's sister, his own sister in law, Mino Bernays. And there's some evidence that suggests that they did have an affair and there's lots of other evidence that suggests that they didn't. And we simply do not know. Some people absolutely believe that the accusation that he had an affair with his sister in law was actually Carl Jung trying to sabotage Freud through unfair gossip. So that is a possibility.
- [17:55]
Peter Frankopan
So perhaps the most remarkable aspect of the Little Hans case is its outcome. Freud is able to explain his theories to Hans in terms that he can understand, which results in a complete transformation for the better.
- [18:08]
Afwa Hersh
The Case of Little Hands is the first detailed application of the Oedipus complex in Freud's work, though it continues to provoke debate and criticism.
- [18:18]
Peter Frankopan
But Freud is about to experience opposition to his ideas from much closer to home. And this time with much more significant consequences.
- [18:38]
Advertiser
Ladies, is everyone trying to fix their health concerns with unproven gummies and Trix? Well, thank goodness low libido has a real clinically proven treatment. Low libido can be so frustrating. But there is a treatment called Addi A D D Y I. Addy is the first and only FDA approved pill proven to boost sexual desire in certain premenopausal women. Isn't that great a clinically proven option for your low libido that comes from a doctor, not a gas station? Learn more@addi.com and take charge of your sexual health with a treatment that's backed by science. Remember, that's Addy. A d d y I.com addi or flovanserin is for premenopausal women with acquired generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past who have low sexual desire. No matter the type of sexual activity, the situation or the sexual partner, the low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a or mental health problem, problems in the relationship or medicine or other drug use. ADDI is not for use in men or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased if you drink one to two standard alcoholic drinks close in time to your ADDI dose. Wait at least two hours after drinking before taking addi. At bedtime, your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is also increased if you take certain prescriptions over the counter or herbal medications or have liver problems. Low blood pressure and fainting can happen when you take addi. Even if you don't drink alcohol or take other medicines, do not take if you are allergic to any of the ingredients in addi. Allergic reactions may include hives, itching or trouble breathing. Sleepiness, sometimes serious, can occur. Common side effects include dizziness, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, and dry mouth. See full PI and medication guide including boxed warning@addi.com PI or call 844 pink pill addy that's addy a-y I.com Are.
- [20:23]
Peter Frankopan
You still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted?
- [20:31]
Narrator
If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past.
- [20:34]
Peter Frankopan
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com creditcard based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [21:05]
Afwa Hersh
So not everyone understands or appreciates Freud's discoveries. But in psychoanalytic circles, he still has a society of loyal followers, and few have been as well received as Carl Jung.
- [21:18]
Peter Frankopan
Freud and Jung don't see eye to eye about everything. Jung isn't convinced by psychoanalysis, overall effectiveness or the question of sexual trauma's prominence.
- [21:29]
Afwa Hersh
But Jung is still Freud's protege and eager to learn from a master at work.
- [21:34]
Peter Frankopan
There have been a few moments of tension between the two. Remember that trip to America in 1909? Well, during the crossing of the Atlantic, Jung had attempted to analyze one of Freud's dreams.
- [21:44]
Afwa Hersh
Brave man.
- [21:46]
Peter Frankopan
Good luck with that one. But when he asked Freud for more personal details to help, Freud refused. He told Jung that allowing himself to be analysed would put his authority at risk.
- [21:57]
Afwa Hersh
Jung interpreted this as Freud putting authority over truth. It's a hairline crack which is just going to get deeper and deeper. But for now, they're still friends.
- [22:08]
Peter Frankopan
In 1910, Freud founds the International Psychoanalytic Association. He attempts to help break psychoanalysis free of its Jewish roots by appointing Jung as president and another Swiss psychiatrist as its secretary.
- [22:21]
Afwa Hersh
This sparks a backlash from Freud's Viennese followers who oppose Swiss control. Freud warns them that the movement is in danger because of anti Semitism.
- [22:30]
Peter Frankopan
So odd Alpine competition thrown in with anti Semitism. But Wednesday, society's Albert Adler and Wilhelm Steckel threaten to leave and Freud confides in Jung, with Adler it's getting really bad. These are personal competitions and animosities. Peter Gay believes that Jung was also secretly chafing under Freud's authority, but was unable to openly dissent.
- [22:52]
Afwa Hersh
Psychoanalysts being dysfunctional people. Hard to imagine.
- [22:56]
Peter Frankopan
Who'd have thought?
- [22:57]
Afwa Hersh
As someone with a mother and a sister who are therapists, it's very, very hard to imagine.
- [23:01]
Peter Frankopan
Careful, Africa. They're going to be listening.
- [23:03]
Afwa Hersh
I know they are. Freud asked Jung about speculative prehistory as research for his book Totem and Taboo. But Jung is defensive, saying, it's very oppressive to me. If you too become involved in this area, the psychology of religion, you are a dangerous competitor. If one wants to speak of competition, have to admire the transparency at least.
- [23:26]
Peter Frankopan
Well, those rivalries, they can be really tricky. In 1910, Jung tells Freud that he has a feeling of inferiority towards you, which frequently overcomes me.
- [23:36]
Afwa Hersh
And he sends a quote from Nietzsche. One poorly repays the teacher if one only remains the pupil.
- [23:42]
Peter Frankopan
Gosh, it's ominous, isn't it?
- [23:44]
Afwa Hersh
Freud responds, if a third party should read this passage, he would ask me, when I had undertaken to suppress you intellectually, I would have to say I do not know.
- [23:52]
Peter Frankopan
It's all bubbling, isn't it? In 1912, Freud visits an ill friend in Kreuzlingen, Switzerland, about 40 miles away from Jung. Freud says he's too busy to call on Jung, who takes offence. He calls it the Kreuzlingen gesture.
- [24:07]
Afwa Hersh
Freud tells him, your insistence on the Kreuzlingen gesture is, to be sure, as incomprehensible as it is insulting. But there are things that cannot be settled in writing.
- [24:18]
Peter Frankopan
It's the beginning of the end. In November 1912, Jung goes on a lecture tour to the United States where he openly redefines Freud's libido theory. He also drops the sexual origins of neurosis and Oedipus complex from his version of psychoanalysis. He tells Freud that his new concepts have won over those who've been put off by Freud's sex centric theories.
- [24:42]
Afwa Hersh
It's clear to both that Jung has initiated a break from his mentor and is claiming independence from him and his theories. Things are at an all time low between the former friends, who, it's fair to say both have something of a flair for the dramatic. And things are about to get even worse.
- [25:01]
Peter Frankopan
So in March 1913, Freud and Jung are both at a small psychoanalysis conference in Munich and the two men meet. Freud reproaches Jung for failing to mention his name in the articles that he's been publishing in Swiss journals. Jung replies that he didn't think it was necessary as Freud is so well known. The argument escalates until Freud falls to the floor in a dead faint. Ernest Jones, who was there, said the sturdy Jung, swiftly carried him to a couch in the lounge where he was soon revived. His first words as he was coming round were strange. How sweet it must be to die.
- [25:37]
Afwa Hersh
Brett, hearing about Freud's own unwillingness to reveal his own sexual life and the animosity that existed ultimately between him and Carl Jung, the rivalries in this psychoanalyst community, is it fair to say that these early psychoanalysts were a bit of a thin skinned bunch?
- [25:58]
Professor Brett Carr
Oh, listen, I don't know many mental health professionals who are not human beings. Everybody has vulnerability, everybody has frailty. The reason why nowadays it is a requirement for trainee psychotherapists and trainee psychoanalysts to undergo our own treatment is that we need to become as sturdy, as strong, as resilient as we possibly can be.
- [26:24]
Afwa Hersh
Just to be clear, I'm not shaming Freud for experiencing the kind of mental health and emotional experiences that everyone does. I'm really asking exactly that. I mean, every analyst now has to have analysis themselves, recognizing what's going on with them. Did Freud have that level of awareness, an ability to analyze himself and the dynamics within his own community and not just him, but the other psychoanalysts around him as well?
- [26:50]
Professor Brett Carr
I think he was very observant and I think he was very attentive. And the fact that he survived a lifetime of horrific anti Semitic abuse, anti Semitic persecution from his birth to his death, the fact that he got through World War I and the beginning of World War II, the fact that he survived the Nazis, the Spanish flu, all of that, he had to be a very strong man. Most people undergoing what he had to undergo would have had psychotic breakdowns very, very early and would not have had the capacity to be creative and so committed to their work and to their families.
- [27:35]
Peter Frankopan
Do you think, Brett, that Jung was responsible for the split or Freud? Or is it one of those things that doesn't have a single protagonist?
- [27:42]
Professor Brett Carr
I don't think there is a single protagonist to any human relationship. I've worked very extensively with couples in long term psychotherapy over the years and you know, partner A might come in and said, partner B did this, which was horrible. I've been a very good spouse. It's all partner B's fault. But as you get to know, both members of the couple. You then start to learn that maybe partner A did something that provoked partner B to do something that wasn't particularly pleasant. So I'm sure that the complexity of the relationship between Freud and Jung each will have contributed.
- [28:23]
Peter Frankopan
So after Freud's collapse in Munich, he continues to write to Jung. But the writing is on the wall. Jung prods at Freud in his letters. I would like to call your attention to the fact that your technique of treating your pupils like your patients is a blunder. In that way you produce slavish sons or impudent rascals. I am objective enough to see through your trick. And the hostilities are so bad avwa that it kicks off not just in letter writing, but in public as well.
- [28:55]
Afwa Hersh
Jung resigns from the International psychoanalytic association in 1914 and critics use the to undermine psychoanalysis's scientific legitimacy. Freud springing to its defense. I have a right to know what psychoanalysis is.
- [29:10]
Peter Frankopan
And Freud considers Jung as being gullible for believing occult phenomena and being infatuated with oriental religions. He thinks that Jung's defence of religious feelings as an integral element of mental health is just wrong, and he treats it with real skepticism. So Freud is watching this once tightly knit group of like minded psychoanalysts splinter into factions and into personal grievances. But despite these struggles, Freud remains prolific.
- [29:39]
Afwa Hersh
By 1914, he's producing some of his most groundbreaking work. But in July, world events overtake him. In June of that year, Austria's Archduke Franz Ferdinand is shot in Sarajevo. And that July, Austria is plunged into war.
- [30:05]
Advertiser
Imagine a place where innovation and lifestyle perfectly align. In Michigan, you can be part of our rapidly evolving automotive and clean energy industries while enjoying life to the fullest. By day, shape the future in our thriving tech hub. By night, discover beautiful natural wonders, accessible housing, exciting nightlife and an inclusive community that welcomes all. Whether you're developing next gen technology or exploring your next favorite restaurant, Michigan offers the perfect balance of work and play, ready to make your career and life aspirations a reality. Live your best 9 to 5 and 5 to 9 you can in Michigan. Work, play and find inspiration you can in Michigan. Learn more@theMichiganLife.org that's TheMichiganLife.org.
- [31:09]
Peter Frankopan
At the start of the war, Freud's sons, Martin and Ernst enlist in the army. Freud is initially enthusiastic, although he's conflicted by professional and family ties to England. All of my libido, he says, is given to Austria, Hungary. I should be with it with all my heart. If only I could think England would not be on the wrong side. Sort of odd thing to compare libido to his military valor, but maybe that's the kind of thing Freud would say would be completely normal.
- [31:37]
Afwa Hersh
Well, he's into this idea that the libido is the life force, that sex is at the heart of everything. PETER if there's one thing we can take from Freud, sex is everything and everything is sex.
- [31:49]
Peter Frankopan
But Freud's enthusiasm for war starts to fade, and he sees a few patients during the war. But then he tells a friend that he's working on something in secret with comprehensive and perhaps momentous things.
- [31:59]
Afwa Hersh
It's a series of papers on metapsychology. This is an exploration of what lies beyond consciousness, or, as Freud describes, behind it. And he continues to work on these throughout the war years, examining the impulse towards self destruction in depressives. In his paper Mourning and Melancholia, and in the paper Repression, Freud describes the mind as a battleground where repressed desires are stored in the unconscious but never actually go away.
- [32:28]
Peter Frankopan
In 1915, Freud begins a series of public lectures to large and growing crowds at the University of Vienna and later publishes these as introductory lectures on psychoanalysis. They're very widely read and translated.
- [32:43]
Afwa Hersh
Work is going well, but his health isn't great. In 1917, Freud develops a painful lesion in his mouth. He puts this down not to the 20 cigar a day habit, but to the shortage of cigars caused by the war.
- [32:57]
Peter Frankopan
But by March 1918, Freud is ever more despondent. The great German offensive starts that month and looks like it might break through. But Freud, like most of Europe, says, I confess myself to be weary and sick of the struggle.
- [33:11]
Afwa Hersh
By September 1918, things are stable enough for an international congress of psychoanalysts in Budapest, where Freud calls for the establishment of psychoanalytic clinics for the poor. He's also critical of the treatment of soldiers suffering from what's described at the time as war neurosis, what we now call shell shock. And he objects to the use of electroshock therapy.
- [33:33]
Peter Frankopan
Freud's sons and the rest of the family survive the war, but Austria is a shadow of the former imperial monarchy. Hyperinflation renders its finances worthless and food is scarce.
- [33:45]
Afwa Hersh
Freud tells his nephew Samuel, you must keep in mind that we have lost 19/20 of what we possessed in cash. And as a result, Freud is forced to rely on supplies of food and provisions sent from overseas by family and friends. Food is in such short supply that Freud writes the paper for our Hungarian periodical and asks to be paid in potatoes. He calls the paper The Kartoffel Schmaam.
- [34:11]
Peter Frankopan
So I mean, it is earth shattering. The first of what it does to global economies. It breaks up Europe's dominance of the world. It sort of sets in train some of the things that we see today. From the Middle east to the incredible power of the United States, the primary beneficiary of the First World War. But also leads to lots of freedoms, particularly for women who finally start to be given the vote at the end of the First World War. So those conceptions about what people thought was certain start to find themselves on very shaky ground, no matter where you are, particularly in Europe. And ideas even about things like life and death, or about social roles or about elites and about sex. It often happens in times of trauma. You know, with plague and war. People come back from front lines and they think, you know, they're lucky to be alive. And they start to live in different kinds of ways. They've had different experiences. They figure life might not last forever.
- [35:03]
Afwa Hersh
So they become kind of disinhibited.
- [35:04]
Peter Frankopan
And as we've already mentioned, the sort of post traumatic problems, the ideas about male valor and having guns and physical injuries, you know, that's part of a kind of currency that becomes really common in Europe. And so Freud's ideas start to fall on ground where people are interested to understand how to cope with trauma. So I don't want to say he's lucky because, you know, that trivializes the sufferings of war. But suddenly there's a different kind of audience than just psychoanalysts trying to think about slightly rare cases of people dreaming about wolves or rats trying to bite their father's anus.
- [35:39]
Afwa Hersh
But it does have a profound effect on Freud. And, you know, he started the war kind of surprisingly to us, feeling quite patriotic and gung ho. But by the end of the war, he's completely changed. And like basically everyone, he's profoundly shocked and horrified by the scale of the carnage. Something that nobody had anticipated going in. He becomes quite pessimistic about human nature. And this also informs his theories going forward. The impact of trauma on the psyche, as you said, Peter. Also his work on the death drive, this idea that we're just inevitably driving towards death and in a way our instincts are so violent that only death gives us release from the torment of humanity. This is something that we'll see again and again in his work from this point on.
- [36:25]
Peter Frankopan
But ironically, Freud is one of the few people who really benefit from the war. So he soon starts to work his way out of deprivation by taking on very Wealthy British and American patients in particular. Soon he's cleared his debts and starts to live in quite some style and to be able to treat his family. So his personal circumstances start to change.
- [36:45]
Afwa Hersh
His work is gaining more international acclaim at the same time. Now his books are being reprinted in translation in France, in Britain, in America. A Russian edition of Introductory Lectures On Psychoanalysis sells 2000 copies in Moscow in one month. Remember back to the days when he struggled to sell 200 copies, and now this is in countries relatively far away. But personal tragedy strikes this moment of Freud's ascendance, doesn't it, Peter?
- [37:10]
Peter Frankopan
Yeah, I mean, it's disastrous that his daughter Sophie dies from influenza complicated by pneumonia, and she'd been pregnant with her third child at the time. And it's a terrible blow. And Freud is completely devastated, having been.
- [37:22]
Afwa Hersh
Through the horror of war. It was such an unimaginable catastrophe that the world was now hit so badly by this flu pandemic. And Freud writes, I do not know whether cheerfulness will ever call on us again. My poor wife has been hit too hard.
- [37:39]
Peter Frankopan
But Freud deals with it by doing what he does best, which is just to keep on working. He tells Ernest Jones, you know, of the misfortune that has befallen me. It is depressing indeed, a loss not to be forgotten. But let us put it aside for the moment. Life and work must go on as long as we last.
- [37:56]
Afwa Hersh
I feel a psychoanalyst would have a lot to say about a lot of Freud's mental state, choices. Emotional relationships at this time. And work is such a classic avoidance strategy, really, when you're facing really hard real life situations. But there's a lot of work to do. So in the first years of the 1920s, Freud produces two groundbreaking books that set out a structural system he's been evolving ever since the end of the war. The first one is beyond the Pleasure Principle, which is released in 1920. Here he introduces the concept we were just talking about, the death drive, which he defines as a primal instinct towards self destruction and a return to an inorganic state which he calls thanatos.
- [38:45]
Peter Frankopan
Psychoanalysts love their Greek. They love the Greek words because it gives sort of a long tradition that goes back to articulate the fact, which is, I think, right, that these questions and ideas have been thought about for thousands of years. His focus on thanatos and on death is not exactly surprising in the context of the First World War and his own personal experiences with his daughter. And his theories really emerge from observing trauma victims compulsively reliving their painful experiences, which defies the pleasure principle.
- [39:12]
Afwa Hersh
Then there's the ego and the Id, published in 1923, another book that's given us everyday language. This expands on his structural model of the psyche, dividing it into three components. There's the id, the ego, and another thing you'll have heard of, the superego. And in this book, Freud's exploring how the ego, which is the external self, balances the id, which is the internal self's demands and the superego's restrictions. He also introduces the concept of repression and the role of unconscious conflicts in shaping personality.
- [39:48]
Peter Frankopan
I'm just sort of not sure about the process of unconscious conflicts and shaping of personalities, partly because, you know, my own experience is that times change and there's constant layering on of new experiences that mean that how even people think about their own pasts changes over time.
- [40:05]
Afwa Hersh
This idea that the superego is your kind of moral compass, your idea of what you should do and who you should be, and then you're dealing constantly with conflicts about what you want and what you feel, what you're aware of, what you're unaware of. I think life is a constant conflict in that sense. And anyone who doesn't see that is maybe in denial. And I guess Freud grew up in an era of denial where there was who you were supposed to be according to religious scripture, and then anything that didn't fit, you kind of either admitted you were trying to change or you just didn't talk about. So to bring this all up into the open, I think it's so important and fascinating, and in a way, it doesn't really matter whether he was right about the specifics, but the concepts, I think, are so useful.
- [40:53]
Peter Frankopan
Let's get Brett back. And I'd like to ask about the impact of the First World War on Freud and the stresses of the war years, you know, obviously took a real toll on him, particularly the death of his daughter, too. But how much did the stress of war and seeing fighting have an impact on Freud, the man, and also on his work?
- [41:11]
Professor Brett Carr
Vienna during the First World War, the Great War was very, very impacted by all the horror that unfolded. The impact on Freud and his wife is that they often struggled to find food. They often struggled to stay warm because there was very little heating. Freud also lost pretty much all of his patients. Most of his patients had to go and fight. All of his younger male patients and many of his female patients had to disappear to look after their families or many tried to emigrate. So he had no income really during that period. So it was a tough time. But I think the biggest challenge for Freud is the fact that not one, not two, but all three of his sons actually fought in the war, and all of them encountered very violent near death experiences. And sadly, his eldest son, Martin, was imprisoned by Britons after the war ended. So Freud and his wife didn't see their son for donkey's years. And there was a long period of time where Freud and his wife did not even know whether their sons were alive. So it was a very, very traumatic, very terrifying period for him.
- [42:29]
Afwa Hersh
Brett, for somebody who's already interested in theorizing around trauma, this is in such a gruesome way. Also an opportunity to really advance Freud's thinking about how impactful trauma and the kind of suffering and death that were omnipresent during the First World War are. Could you talk to us about the connection between living through the war and the flu pandemic that was personally devastating for him as well. And the works beyond the pleasure principle and the ego in the ID and what that's meant for psychoanalysis.
- [43:03]
Professor Brett Carr
Most Freudians would say that losing a parent is horrible, but nothing is more horrific for a human being than losing your own child. So Freud was very traumatized by that. But he did survive. But he did also increase in his subsequent publications the Role of Aggression and traumatization, and started to write more and more about politics and the impact of the private human mind on civilization in a wider way. So I think Freud was both surprised but also very unsurprised that the whole planet started to engage in yet another war. And I think that was very important data for him that although we all endeavor as human beings to be loving, Freud knew very few human beings who weren't also highly murderous. And that is really the centerpiece of psychoanalytical work today, and indeed in Freud's time, is trying to verbalize one's painful feelings, one's ugly feelings, get it off one's chest, and engage in what the ancient Greeks first called catharsis. That is really what lies at the heart of the psychoanalytical treatment process.
- [44:23]
Peter Frankopan
I wonder, Brett, if you could explain to us how radical the concepts of the death drive, the ego, the ID and the superego are.
- [44:31]
Professor Brett Carr
I think in many ways these are very radical concepts. I think in many ways they're also extremely basic concepts. Go up to two people who are members of the same couple in the street and say, you know, do you have a loving spouse? They would all say, yes, I have a great spouse. Very, very grateful. And they say, but does your spouse also drive you crazy six times a week? They would say, yes, absolutely. You know, human relationships are really, really complex. I don't know many people who do not have huge loving desires towards their loved ones and often huge hateful desires. We all carry tremendous rage, and Freud really allowed us to recognize that about human beings. And that is really the conflict between our erotic urges and our yearnings to be attached to loving people, as well as our wish to kill them and our fear of being killed by them simultaneously, even if it happens at only a very symbolic level.
- [45:38]
Peter Frankopan
So by 1923, Freud is 66. He's suffered through a world war and personal tragedy. Admitting that the thought of death has not left me, I have not succumbed to hypochondria, but view it quite coolly rather as I do the speculations in beyond the Pleasure Principle. Yet he's arguably at the peak of his powers, turning out two of his most important works.
- [46:01]
Afwa Hersh
In February 1923, Freud detects a growth on his jaw and palate. He has surgery, but that leads to severe complications and is diagnosed as cancerous. In October, radical surgery removes parts of his jaw and palate, leaving Freud with a painful prosthesis, which he calls the monster.
- [46:22]
Peter Frankopan
His daughter Anna becomes his primary carer. However, it doesn't stop him from smoking those cigars, and he resorts to using a clothes peg to force open his jaw while smoking.
- [46:33]
Afwa Hersh
I feel like when you have to use a clothes peg to force a cigar into your mouth, that's definitely a message that you shouldn't be smoking, but that's Freud. He's also world famous and his work has now received widespread global acclaim.
- [46:48]
Peter Frankopan
So in 1924, Lord Balfour says the three men he considers to have most influenced modern thought are Albert Einstein. Fair enough, Sigmund Freud, I guess, and Henri Bernson, who is a French philosopher. So, Einstein, I think we all understand why he's so famous, but the fact that Freud is being spoken about in these same breath as the world's most famous physicist is quite significant.
- [47:12]
Afwa Hersh
On a similar vein, at a dinner of the Anglo Austrian society, Lord Haldane notes the contributions to culture made by the city of Vienna. Singling out Mozart, Beethoven, Mach and Freud. Pretty good company to be in, Peter.
- [47:27]
Peter Frankopan
I'd rather be with Mozart and Beethoven and Freud than Mach, but you know, that's okay. But I mean, a sign of how famous he is is also that the Hollywood film director Samuel Goldwyn offers Freud $100,000 to consult on a film about famous love stories from history. And so rich and famous Is Freud that he can decline the offer and declines an invitation to meet Goldwyn, which causes a stir in New York, not surprisingly.
- [47:52]
Afwa Hersh
I love how we've entered the era of Hollywood now suddenly that's a flex, you know. Many people would be quite flattered and seduced by the glamour of that offer, not to mention the hard cash. But Freud refuses. And when the film is released, he's furious at the publicity because the film states that it's made with Freud's cooperation. And every foot of the film, the Mystery of the Soul will be planned and scrutinised by Dr. Freud, which I think tells you more about Hollywood than it does about Freud.
- [48:24]
Peter Frankopan
At this point, Hollywood strikes again. But on his 70th birthday in 1926, Freud receives well wishes from Einstein and the French novelist Romain Rolland. And while he's getting those congratulations, it's notable that Vienna's academic institutions and elites ignore him.
- [48:41]
Afwa Hersh
Says a lot, that snub. But whether Vienna wants to acknowledge him or not, Freud has entered not just the global world of psychoanalysis, but also the culture. I mean, the fact that he's in demand for Hollywood says a lot. But it's not just there. It's literature, it's art. The whole surrealist movement is deeply influenced by his ideas about the subconscious.
- [49:02]
Peter Frankopan
Freud's theories have had such a profound influence on modernist writers like D.H. lawrence, James Joyce. It's almost impossible to overstate how important Freud and Freudian concepts have been. And Freud's impact on modernism has been absolutely critical.
- [49:17]
Afwa Hersh
The whole field of literary criticism and analysis, of critiquing the arts is all based on the idea that you can read into these works of fiction or creativity, what it says about the artist's subconscious, what the characters are doing both on the page but also beneath the page. It's hard for us to appreciate because this seems so obvious now. But without Freudian psychoanalysis it would be a much more one dimensional relationship that we have with art. And Freud might not have been actively engaged with it. He didn't necessarily want to go to Hollywood and talk to novelists, but they were completely drawing on the ideas that he created.
- [49:59]
Peter Frankopan
So it's only taken 40 years, but Freud has finally achieved the international fame and recognition that he'd once craved. But it's not been an easy ride. And sadly, things are about to get a whole lot rougher.
- [50:11]
Afwa Hersh
The Nazi party is on the rise and a certain famous Jewish psychoanalyst has not escaped their attention. Their party are destined to collide. That's next time on Legacy follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com Survey from Wondery and Goal Hanger this is the third episode in our series on Sigmund Freud. We've used many sources for this series including A Life for Our Time by Peter Gay and the Life and Work of Sigmund Freud by Ernest Jones. Legacy is hosted by me, AFWA Hersh.
- [51:17]
Peter Frankopan
And me, Peter Frankapen. For Goal Hanger, our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Jack McKay is Associate Producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reed and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [51:33]
Afwa Hersh
This series of Legacy is sound engineered and designed by Will Farmer.
- [51:38]
Peter Frankopan
Music supervision is Scott Palasko for Fritz and Sink.
- [51:41]
Afwa Hersh
Our producer for Wondery is Emmanuela Coinati Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [51:47]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.