Legacy Podcast Episode: Freud | Goodnight Vienna | Part 4

Release Date: April 23, 2025
Host/Author: Wondery
Guests: Professor Brett Carr (Psychoanalyst and Freud Scholar), Dr. Susie Orbach (Author and Renowned Psychoanalyst)

Introduction

In the fourth and final installment of the Legacy series on Sigmund Freud, hosts Afwa Hirsch and Peter Frankopan delve into the twilight years of Freud's life, exploring his struggles against rising anti-Semitism, his eventual exile from Austria, and the enduring impact of his psychoanalytic theories. This episode not only recounts the historical events surrounding Freud’s final years but also critically examines his legacy through the insights of esteemed guests Professor Brett Carr and Dr. Susie Orbach.

Freud’s Later Years: Personal Tragedies and Professional Struggles

Afwa Hirsch opens the episode by reflecting on Freud's significant achievements and the personal costs that accompanied his success. Specifically, she mentions the estrangement from his protégé Carl Jung over differing psychoanalytic theories and the devastating loss of his daughter Sophie at the age of 27 during his 70th year ([00:28]).

Peter Frankopan adds depth to Freud's personal struggles, highlighting the rise of the Nazi party in Germany during the early 1930s and Freud’s underestimation of the threat posed by Adolf Hitler and his supporters ([01:00]).

Notable Quote:
“Freud can count people like Albert Einstein amongst his many fans, but circumstances aren't going to bless him with a peaceful retirement surrounded by his grandchildren.” – Peter Frankopan ([01:00])

Nazi Threat and Freud’s Initial Response

The conversation shifts to the increasing anti-Jewish violence in Austria, spurred by the Nazi ascent. Despite the growing danger, Freud remains complacent, as illustrated when Nazis begin burning his books in Berlin in May 1933. Freud reacts with sarcasm, stating, “What progress we're making. In the Middle Ages, they would have burnt me. Nowadays they are content with burning my books.” ([04:49]).

Afwa Hirsch points out Freud’s minimization of the Nazi threat, which is further exemplified when the German Society for Psychotherapy in Berlin falls under Nazi control. Carl Jung’s controversial collaboration with the Nazis is also highlighted ([04:24]).

Notable Quote:
“Freud dismisses it with sarcasm, saying, what progress we're making.” – Afwa Hirsch ([04:49])

Freud’s Reluctance to Flee and Final Departure

Despite warnings and pleas from colleagues and friends to flee, Freud initially refuses to leave Vienna, adhering to his sense of duty. It is only after his youngest daughter Anna is threatened by the Gestapo that Freud decides to emigrate to London. The harrowing moment when Anna is briefly taken by the Gestapo serves as the catalyst for Freud’s departure ([07:29]).

Notable Quote:
“Freud is terrified that his beloved daughter might be tortured or deported to a concentration camp.” – Peter Frankopan ([07:29])

Life in London and Final Days

Upon arriving in London on June 6, 1938, Freud is greeted with public and media acclaim. Despite his cancer diagnosis and debilitating health, Freud continues his psychoanalytic practice, conducting up to four sessions daily. His final work, Moses and Monotheism, is published in 1939 ([16:10]).

As World War II looms, Freud's health deteriorates. On September 3, 1939, Britain declares war on Germany, and Freud, suffering unbearably from oral cancer, requests assistance from his physician, Dr. Schur, to ease his passage out of life. He passes away on September 23, 1939, at the age of 83 ([16:49]).

Freud’s Legacy and Enduring Influence

The discussion transitions to Freud’s profound legacy. Both Professor Brett Carr and Dr. Susie Orbach explore how Freud’s theories have permeated various aspects of modern life, from mental health to corporate culture.

Notable Quotes:
“Freud has given us an enormous amount of hope as human beings because he demonstrated more than anybody else that if parents treat their children kindly, reliably, regularly, non abusively, they will contribute to the children growing up in a non traumatized fashion.” – Brett Carr ([42:53])

“We are both knowable and unknowable, that there's a lot more to know about us in terms of what motivates us.” – Susie Orbach ([43:41])

Critiques and Controversies Surrounding Freud

The episode does not shy away from the controversies associated with Freud’s theories, particularly his views on women and the methodological criticisms of his work. Susie Orbach addresses Freud’s patriarchal perspectives, arguing that while some of his theories are outdated, they provide a foundational understanding of societal and individual psychology ([28:12]).

Brett Carr defends Freud against critics who accuse him of lacking empirical evidence, emphasizing the depth and genius of Freud’s exploration of the human mind ([24:33]).

Notable Quotes:
“All toddlers wish to kill their same sex. Transcend and copulate with the other one is a totally unscientific idea in its origin.” – Frederick Cruise (referenced by Afwa Hirsch) ([25:23])

“Freud was one of the first men to take women really, really seriously.” – Brett Carr ([31:43])

Freud’s Jewish Identity and Its Impact

Freud’s Jewish heritage is discussed in the context of his life’s work and the persecution he faced. Professor Brett Carr highlights how Freud’s Jewish background influenced his empathy towards suffering and shaped his psychoanalytic practice ([34:23]).

Notable Quote:
“He was both a self-identified Jew and one of the first atheists, believing that religion could be a sign of neurosis.” – Brett Carr ([36:16])

Modern Perception of Psychoanalysis

Dr. Susie Orbach reflects on the current state of psychoanalysis, noting its widespread acceptance and integration into various fields such as business, film, and the arts. She emphasizes that while Freud remains a pivotal figure, contemporary practitioners adapt his theories to modern contexts without being solely dependent on his legacy ([37:07]).

Notable Quote:
“We are very protective, protective human beings and therefore a little bit frightened about the defense structures which were built as a form of protection against hurts and miseries and difficult situations.” – Susie Orbach ([25:58])

Summarizing Freud’s Legacy

In their concluding discussions, both guests offer succinct summaries of Freud’s enduring influence:

• Peter Frankopan: “Prolific, Provocative, Insecure.” – highlighting Freud’s immense productivity, his ability to challenge norms, and his personal vulnerabilities ([45:38]).

• Afwa Hirsch: “Climate of Opinion.” – referencing W.H. Auden’s portrayal of Freud as a pervasive cultural phenomenon ([46:50]).

Brett Carr underscores Freud’s hope-filled legacy in promoting global mental health and the importance of compassionate parenting ([42:53]). Susie Orbach emphasizes Freud’s role in unveiling the complexities of the human psyche, asserting that his theories continue to inform contemporary understanding of individual and societal behaviors ([43:41]).

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt acknowledgments to Professor Brett Carr and Dr. Susie Orbach for their invaluable contributions, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of Freud’s multifaceted legacy. As the hosts transition to their next series exploring Joseph Stalin, they reflect on the profound journey into Freud’s life and the lasting impressions of his work on modern society.

Credits:
Hosts: Afwa Hirsch and Peter Frankopan
Guests: Professor Brett Carr and Dr. Susie Orbach
Production Team: Jane Morgan, Anoush Lewis, Jack McKay, Izzy Reid, Alex Hack Roberts
Executive Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport, Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones, Marshall Louis
Sound Engineering and Design: Will Farmer
Music Supervision: Scott Velasquez for Fritz and Sync
Wondery Producers: Emanuela Quinati Francis, Rachel Sibley

Resources Mentioned:

• A Life for Our Time by Peter Gay
• The Life and Work of Sigmund Freud by Ernest Jones

For More Information:
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