Genghis Khan | The Final Campaign | 4

Summary

Legacy Podcast: Genghis Khan | The Final Campaign | Episode 4 Summary

Release Date: February 26, 2025

In the concluding episode of the Legacy series on Genghis Khan, hosts Afwa Hirsch and Peter Frankopan delve into the final campaigns of the legendary Mongol leader, his tumultuous death, the succession of his son Ogedei, the Mongol incursion into Europe, and the enduring legacy of the Mongol Empire. This comprehensive episode offers a nuanced perspective on Genghis Khan’s life and the profound impact of the Mongol Empire on world history.

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Final Campaigns and Genghis Khan’s Decline

The episode opens with reflections on Genghis Khan’s relentless pursuit of expansion even in his sixties. As Peter Frankopan notes, “Chinggis Khan is now into his 60s. Thoughts are turning to who is going to succeed him...” ([00:41]). Genghis Khan continues his campaigns westward, targeting rich territories such as Kiev, Novgorod, Poland, and Hungary, aiming to consolidate and expand his already vast empire.

Afwa Hirsch recounts the 1226 campaign against the Tangut people: “...Chinggis decides he will go and crush them in person” ([03:50]). Leading a formidable army of approximately 70,000, Genghis Khan faces larger Tangut forces but ultimately secures victory after a grueling march across the frozen Yellow River during the winter of 1226-1227 ([03:59]).

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Genghis Khan’s Death and Succession

The narrative shifts to the circumstances surrounding Genghis Khan’s death in 1227. While the exact cause remains uncertain—ranging from injuries sustained from falling off his horse to possible illnesses or even assassination—the episode highlights the ambiguity and various theories presented by historians ([04:29]-[05:35]). Peter Frankopan emphasizes, “The only thing that's certain is that Genghis Khan dies in 1227” ([05:35]).

Following his death, the focus turns to the succession of his son, Ogedei. The description of Ogedei’s enthronement is vivid: “...Ogedei will assume the mantle of rule” ([06:14]). The ceremony is marked by ritual sacrifices, including “40 high born virgins” to symbolize a new era ([10:54]). This brutal tradition underscores the Mongol approach to power and consolidation.

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Mongol Invasion of Europe

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the Mongol expansion into Europe. Afwa Hirsch narrates master Roger’s eyewitness account of the Mongol invasion of Hungary in 1241, illustrating the fear and devastation wrought by the Mongol armies: “...they inhumanely raped the virgins of the poor and defiled the bed of the powerful whenever they had the chance” ([18:41]).

Peter Frankopan discusses the European perception of the Mongols, often misconstrued as apocalyptic invaders or even supernatural beings: “...they could be demons who've been unleashed from hell to punish Christian nations for their sin” ([17:15]). The Mongols’ military prowess and unconventional warfare techniques left European armies perplexed and unprepared, culminating in decisive battles such as the Battle of Mohi in Silesia ([22:23]).

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Legacy and Historical Reassessment

The episode critically examines the lasting impact of Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire. Afwa Hirsch expresses frustration with the Western obsession over locating Genghis Khan’s tomb, arguing that such pursuits reflect a Eurocentric lens: “...the obsession over finding his place of burial is similarly misguided” ([09:09]).

Peter Frankopan challenges traditional narratives that paint the Mongols solely as brutal conquerors. He highlights their role in facilitating communication, trade, and cultural exchange across Eurasia: “...they created a template for global empires” ([30:17]). The discussion extends to modern perceptions, noting how historical experiences under Mongol rule influence contemporary geopolitical relationships, particularly between Russia and China ([35:37]-[36:40]).

Afwa Hirsch and Peter Frankopan also address the claim that the Mongols were parasitic, asserting that their true legacy lies in their ability to harness and transmit innovations: “They were good at harnessing the inventions of others, connecting goods, services, cultures, ideas...” ([32:32]).

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Relevance to Modern Globalization

Connecting past and present, Frankopan draws parallels between the Mongol Empire’s extensive networks and today’s globalization: “Globalization is great if you want to get cheap laptops and goods made in other parts of the world, but it also means that... disease... spread incredibly quickly” ([25:48]). This reflection underscores the dual-edged nature of interconnectedness, a legacy stemming from Mongol-era innovations.

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Final Reflections and Misunderstandings

In their closing thoughts, Hirsch emphasizes the misconception surrounding Genghis Khan’s legacy: “...the reputation and caricature really, of Genghis Khan... has dominated the story that we are so ignorant of his genius” ([42:09]). Frankopan echoes the need to reevaluate historical figures beyond their destructive actions, recognizing the complex legacies they leave behind.

Afwa Hirsch concludes with a personal reflection on the misunderstood nature of Genghis Khan, stating, “...the most misunderstood” ([43:33]). Peter Frankopan adds a lighter note, expressing admiration for Genghis Khan’s profound impact despite the historical atrocities: “love that guy this time” ([43:42]).

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Conclusion

The final episode of Legacy’s series on Genghis Khan offers a balanced examination of one of history’s most formidable leaders. By intertwining military campaigns, personal anecdotes, and historical analysis, Afwa Hirsch and Peter Frankopan present a multifaceted portrait of Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire. The episode not only revisits the past with fresh insights but also draws meaningful connections to contemporary global dynamics, urging listeners to appreciate the intricate legacies that shape our world today.

Transcript

[Afwa Hirsch]

Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Peter Frankopan]

This episode contains depictions of violence and discusses sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Wondry.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Hello and welcome to the final episode of our series on Chinggis Khan. We left you with Chinggis back home after a stunningly successful campaign pushing his empire further and further west. His armies reached as far as Georgia, leaving a trail of destruction behind them.

[Peter Frankopan]

Chinggis Khan is now into his 60s. Thoughts are turning to who is going to succeed him, which of his four sons is best equipped to sit on his saddle. He's threatened to have all of them executed at one stage or another. But before all of that, he's still not done. There are battles to be fought and enemies to be crushed. There are still lands left to conquer to the west. Kiev, Novgorod, Poland, Hungary and elsewhere offer rich pickings. And there are still parts of China to overcome. More potential territory to add to his already vast empire. From Wandery and Gold Hanger, I'm Peter Frankopen. I'm AFWA Hirsch and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.

[Afwa Hirsch]

This is Chinggis Khan, Episode 4 the Final Campaign.

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[Peter Frankopan]

Download thumbtack Today, nothing sets off Chinggis Khan's notoriously short fuse quicker than being betrayed. He might be in his 60s now, but if you think someone has gone behind his back or let him down, then he's reaching for his sword and calling for his horse.

[Afwa Hirsch]

So when in 1226, the Tangut rise against their Mongol conquerors, Chinggis decides he will go and crush them in person.

[Peter Frankopan]

So he leads an army, we're told it's about 70,000 strong, into Tangut territory, northern parts of today's China. And any town that doesn't submit gets destroyed. Every single occupant gets killed. And the Tangut army is able to amass more soldiers than the Mongols. But they're no match for them. And in the winter of 1226 27, after a daring dash across the frozen Yellow river in terrible conditions, Chinggis Khan wins his last great victory.

[Afwa Hirsch]

This campaign against the Tangut continues into the summer of 1227. And at some point in that summer, Genghis falls from his horse. That leaves him with injuries from which he never properly recovers. And in August 1227, he dies.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's very symbolic, isn't it, that if you're going to be king of the world as a result of horsepower, there's something ironic about toppling off your horse. It's not clear that that's what causes his death. I mean, he's quite an old man by the standards of the time.

[Afwa Hirsch]

It could have been the injuries from falling off the horse, but it could have been any of the illnesses that plagued that region. Malaria from mosquitoes, typhus. Could have been witchcraft. Some of his followers believe that he was cursed by somebody with a vengeance. It could have been lightning.

[Peter Frankopan]

There's another one as well, though, isn't there?

[Afwa Hirsch]

By far the most plausible explanation is one that was circulated at the time, which is that he was stabbed in the genitals by the wife of the conquered Tangut emperor when he tried to have sex with her after the conquest. I mean, that sounds like a fitting end, given the way that he lived.

[Peter Frankopan]

I can understand that she might want to do that, but I think, you know, the wear and tear, the prospects of infectious diseases, rudimentary healthcare. The only thing that's certain is that Genghis Khan dies in 1227. The fact he survived into his mid-60s, given the life he'd led, the battles he'd fought, seems no small feat.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Especially given the age of other maybe comparable figures like Alexander the Great or Caesar, who died at far younger ages. But it's over for Genghis Khan now. And it's time for his final journey. His last trip home. After one last conquest, his body is carried back to where it all began.

[Peter Frankopan]

August 1229. The Kenti Mountains, Mongolia. Dawn breaks golden behind the crests of the Genty Mountains. Ogede watches as the yellow light edges across the valley floor below. He looks up towards the sacred peak of Burhan Kaldu, the final resting place of his father, Chinggis Khan. He was buried there two years ago, the greatest ruler the world has ever known. His funeral was shrouded in secrecy. The dozens of soldiers and workers involved in the procession were massacred, taking the location of his tomb to their own graves. It was his father's wish that the site of his burial remain unknown, undisturbed. Today, Ogedei will assume the mantle of rule. He watches the procession coming towards him. Some men carrying a throne covered in white felt. Others, the golden sword. Behind these, a delegation of women. 40 high born virgins. Their ritual sacrifice will mark the majesty of the occasion. Virgin blood to represent a new era. For his name, Ogede has chosen Khagan, the Great Khan. As he's hoisted into the air on top of the throne, he catches the eye of his younger brother, Toluwi. He thinks he sees a flash of resentment. A great and successful general, Toluwi was the favorite to succeed their father. He even acted as regent following his death. But Ogede knows his brother lacks the political acumen that he inherited. Ogedei's ability to garner broad support saw him win out. He also knows Chinggis Khan set an impossible precedent. He cannot replicate his achievements. But he will honour his father's legacy by holding together the world he created. He will grow this empire by aggressive expansion on all fronts. He's learned that campaigns of foreign conquest help keep the peace at home. As the celebrations begin, he reminds himself of another lesson that Chinggis Khan had taught him. To the faithful, be generous, but in battle, show no mercy.

[Afwa Hirsch]

I got quite annoyed, Peter, when I read how hard people have tried to hunt for the tomb of Chinggis Khan. Right at the beginning of this whole series, you said the obsession over the exact time and the exact place of his birth is really quite a Eurocentric lens. You know, to a nomadic people living at that time, those details weren't the important things. The important things were any signs around the birth or what family or clan someone belonged to, what their destiny was. And I feel like this whole obsession over finding his place of burial is similarly misguided. He obviously didn't want to be found.

[Peter Frankopan]

Look, what would you do Afwa, if Cecil Rhodes or Robert Clives burial place was unknown, but the chances were it was stuff filled with ill gotten gold, Would you do the same thing? Say they should be allowed to be respected and left where they are?

[Afwa Hirsch]

You know, I get it, it's partly curiosity. They say they want to find out exactly how he died, but at the same time why? Why do we need to know? I think that there is this idea that you have to kind of dissect everything and locate everything and dig it up and unbury it. But if Genghis Khan hadn't wanted his body to be left intact, he wouldn't have gone to such lengths to keep his burial place such a secret.

[Peter Frankopan]

I don't think it's just a Mongolian thing after all. Not just pyramids in North Africa, but the tomb of Cyrus in Iran, you know, Humayun's tomb in Delhi. These great leaders that will be buried with great style and pomp and circumstance, but their tombs will be filled with gold and treasures. My best guess would be that people would have been looking for Chinggis Khan's tomb almost as soon as he died because the knowledge of what there was lying at rest. But the Terracotta army is probably the single most famous burial site in the world. I'd have thought for a great emperor who died more than 2,000 years ago, that tomb was only found in 1974, in my lifetime. You know, it's hiding in plain sight. So I think that the idea that you want to be buried in silence and that no one can find you is different to wanting to be buried in a sacred place. I think that I would buy the likelihood of Chinggis Khan being buried in a similar sort of style to a great Chinese emperor would be likely. They're the kind of the big burial mounds that you find right across all parts of Eurasia, Central Asia and East Asia are ways of showing where great leaders were laid to rest. But those tombs would have been pilfered and pillaged pretty quickly, I'd have thought.

[Afwa Hirsch]

And as for his son Ogde, who is not showing very promising signs of being more interested in protecting human life than his father. What do we make of the 40 aristocratic virgins sacrificed at his enthronement? Do you think that's a realistic detail?

[Peter Frankopan]

Yeah, I think this shows power. It shows that you're expecting people to make the ultimate sacrifice by presenting Their daughters who are young to be cut down in their prime as a way of showing full submission. So, you know, we've got lots of accounts of similar things like this happening in different parts of the world. And, you know, it's gory and terrible to read about, but I don't think it's unusual.

[Afwa Hirsch]

And Ogade is transitioning quite seamlessly from his father's rule, but he is different to his father. I mean, the records suggest that Ogede actually enjoys war, enjoys conquest, and enjoys violence in ways that perhaps his father didn't.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, he gets closer to people who write about this sort of stuff. So he gets closer to the Persians, he gets closer to Europe. So in a funny way, his legacy, his reputation is more real than Chinggis Khan. I mean, I've got a lot of time for Ergudei and Batuu and Munke. They're kind of descendants of Chinggis Khan and then Kublai Khan. The challenge is not to conquer. The challenge is to maintain. And the machine that Chinggis Khan founds, for want of a better word, is one that could have fallen apart very, very quickly. And often steppe empires do fall apart. So Ogede and others, you know, I'm not here to defend their reputations, but there's probably more method again than the madness that gets attributed to them.

[Afwa Hirsch]

And it's definitely not a case of the empire falling apart now that Ogade has succeeded Genghis Khan. In fact, the opposite, the Qin in China are finally roundly defeated. And Genghis General Subedei, now that the east is secured, is pushing further and further westward. And this is where we get to a part of the story that we haven't heard so far, Peter, because I think one phrase that a lot of people will associate with the Mongols is the Golden Horde.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, eventually the empire becomes so large that it's divided into different entities. So you have Yuan Dynasty in what's basically eastern China today. You have the Ichidids in roughly what's Iraq and Mesopotamia. You have the Golden Horde, who sit in the flatlands above the Black Sea that are now part of Ukraine and southern Russia, and then the Chagatai too. So it's a distribution of how do you break down a big entity into something more manageable. But I think it's that the Golden Horde are the ones who are in closest proximity to Europe.

[Afwa Hirsch]

This is really Subedai's legacy as he makes this push and the Mongols start traveling up north, practically towards the Arctic Circle, as far north as Finland and as far south as Crimea. And so they're really moving towards Northern and Western Europe. They reach the borders of Eastern Europe and the great city of Kyiv in what's today Ukraine. And it only takes nine days for Kyiv to fall, which sends huge shockwaves across Western Europe. Kiev is a major part of European Christian civilization, and it brings the Mongols to the borders of Poland. This is now Central Europe. So that places as far as Spain, the Netherlands are beginning to panic. News of the Mongol threat is even reported as far as Scotland. And again, the Europeans have no idea who the Mongols are. Many scholars in Europe at this time begin consulting the Bible for some kind of explanation as to who these people could be and where they've come from. They could be demons who've been unleashed from hell to punish Christian nations for their sin. They could be a lost tribe of David from the Old Testament who went astray and into the east and have now come back to seek something that was theirs. I mean, all of these stories are circulating. Or it could be, and maybe this is actually closer to the truth for the people who experience these Mongol onslaughts. The Apocalypse.

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[Peter Frankopan]

So there are lots of rumors spreading in the west that perhaps the Mongols are being led by Prester John, the legendary ruler of a mighty Christian kingdom in Asia that has caught people's imagination. But reports from Hungary and Georgia make it clear that exactly what's coming it isn't Prester John. It isn't the apocalypse. It's the Mongols. And as you mentioned, reports reach Scotland and beyond. Herring gets unsold in ports on the east coast of Britain as merchants who normally came from the Baltic to buy it didn't dare to leave home. By the early 1240s, the Mongols have reached Europe. But then there are long distance connections where proposed alliances take place between Mongol envoys. In fact, Christian bishops who are part of the Mongol Empire come to England. They celebrate mass with King Edward and there's a discussion about whether there's a way in which the Mongols and the English and others could work together to squeeze the Muslims out of the Middle East. And so those rivalries of those tensions are ones that are flexible. But it doesn't take long for Europeans to learn about who the Mongols are and to work out what kinds of risks and threat they pose. I mean, at one battle, which turned up to by the King of Poland and the Duke of Silesia, the Mongols shatter the allied armies and eventually fill nine sacks with ears of the dead. They chop them off as trophies. So, you know, it's not surprising that people are absolutely scared, rigid by who The Mongols are.

[Afwa Hirsch]

February 1241, Varad, Hungary. Master Roger graces through the city streets in panic, cold air stinging his lungs. He can still see the peasant dropping to his knees, two arrows embedded in his back. His final words rasped out through a blood filled throat. The Mongols are coming. Inside the church, his sandals slap against the bell tower's stone steps. With trembling hands, he pulls on the ropes, peeling out a warning to the unsuspecting city. Frantically, he scans the horizon. To his horror, he sees a dark mass forming on a hilltop. For weeks, news of the Mongol's westward invasion has trickled in the devastating pitched battles in Poland, mass rape and murder in Moldova. Now the barbarian hordes are on their doorstep Below him, people. People spill into the streets. Leaning from the tower, he bellows, the Tartars are here. Flee to the woods. Save yourselves. As word spreads, he hears the cries of fear. The Mongol's reputation precedes them. From his vantage point, Master Roger now sees a column of riders tearing through the valley. Soon he can make out horses covered in armor, warriors carrying bows and shields, their helmets glinting in the light. As they reach the city, he hears their blood curdling shrieks, followed by the terrified screams of their victims. They surge through the streets, cutting down men and falling on women. He stumbles from the church and heads in the direction of the forest. Everywhere, the ground vibrates from the hoof beats of stampeding horses. Dust and chaos all around him. An arrow shot shatters against a wall inches from his head. He breaks into a run, too afraid to look back, and can only pray to God the barbarians don't find him. Master Roger was a real person. He really was a Hungarian based Italian churchman of the time who documented the events of the Mongol invasion. And he wrote, they were a wild people. They inhumanely raped the virgins of the poor and defiled the bed of the powerful whenever they had the chance.

[Peter Frankopan]

Yes, it's terrifying. You know, these people who've come seemingly from nowhere, they look different, they're dressed in different ways, they're on different kinds of horses, different size of horses, and they move with huge speed. Also ahead of them comes these rumors and stories about massive destruction. And I think people are not sure what to believe, whether this is just exaggerations. Surely there can't have been churches that have been set on fire with people inside them. There can't be cities that have been completely demolished. But there's enough knowledge to know that there's reality underpinning the anxieties. With this sort of cloud of disaster.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Coming towards Europe, it must have felt like the apocalypse. These people coming with incredible violence, inflicting total defeat. And they would not stop until they had won. And it was clear that Europeans were completely unprepared for this onslaught. And you just look at the experiences in battle as well, that they had a completely different approach to warfare. We heard in earlier episodes about their remarkable horsemanship, their incredible ability to kill on horseback, their precision with arrows, and they're fighting these knights with their really heavy, cumbersome armor who have a completely different style of battle. And it's quite clear that they are not prepared to fight this new and unknown enemy.

[Peter Frankopan]

So the Mongols advance into Poland and Hungary and as you mentioned, in April 1241, they inflict a crushing defeat on the allied army near Legnica in Silesia. King Bela IV narrowly escapes from the battlefield, but his army doesn't, so they're slaughtered at the Battle of Mohi. But he then escapes down to Dalmatia. He gets to Trogi, where he goes to stay with the Dormy family with some of my ancestors, and then has to be chased through the coastline while the Mongols follow through in hot pursuit, sacking, split, reaching as far as Scutari in Albania before being ordered home. And that arrival of the Mongols in Europe is shattering in terms of what it is that it does for European self confidence, and also about what happens later with European travellers wanting to go and head out eastwards. And John of Plano, Carpini, William Verbrook, and the most famous one of course, being Marco Polo, going to travel to go and find out what are these worlds that live to our east, how much more sophisticated are they, how do people live, what do they believe in? And also some cases, can they also be converted? And in the 1240s, for example, one of these envoys meets the Great Khan and is given a letter to take back to the Pope which says, all the lands in the world have been conquered by the Mongols. You should come in person, it says, to the Pope, with all the princes and serve us. If you don't do so, the Great Khan warns, I shall make you my enemy. When the Pope asks the Mongol ruler to become Christian again, he gets a reply saying, how do you know whom God absolves and to whom he shows mercy? All the lands, from the rising to the setting sun are subject to me. So that kind of thing shows that the balance of power is switching quite dramatically, and Ogedey and his successors are part of that narrative. The spectre of the Mongol means something different today in Poland, Hungary, Dalmatia. The idea that the eastern flank of Europe is the defender against threats has an obvious resonance today with what's happening in Ukraine, for example, where people in Poland, the Baltic states, central Eastern Europe are much closer to the action of what threats might look like. But the curious thing is that what solves the problem in Europe in the 1240s is not the actions of individual rulers or defensive fortifications. It's the fact that Ogede dies. And because Ogede dies, there's a race back to Mongol HQ to work out who's going to succeed Ogedea the Great Khan. Otherwise the gates of Europe might have been opened as they had been across Central Asia.

[Afwa Hirsch]

You can just imagine the relief In Europe, when this force that seems unstoppable suddenly begins retreating, but they leave such devastation behind them. 15 to 25% of the population of Hungary, for example, it's estimated to have been killed. And it's not just Hungary. Bulgaria, Poland, what's today Russia, are also devastated over the 16,000 miles that the Mongols had covered. I mean, it's hard to find a better example of an effective military campaign in history. And when I say better, I don't mean it in an admiring way, given the level of devastation and brutality, but in terms of achieving its own objectives of military conquest, you really have to give it to Genghis Khan's legacy and his descendants and generals that they were able to achieve something that no one in history had done before.

[Peter Frankopan]

One of the things that is ironic about the Mongols is that their networks that spread communications, trade, and so on are also the vectors of something else that happens in the 1240s that changes the world, and that's the Black Death. So the fact that goods are moving from Central Asia from the Black Sea towards Europe, not just rats who get the blame for the Black Death, but particularly wheat and textiles that can carry disease too. Those connectivities of the worlds that the Mongols build provide huge amounts of prosperity, but also enormous vulnerability, particularly when pathogens and disease get involved. That's something which we can think about the resonance in today's world. Globalization is great if you want to get cheap laptops and goods made in other parts of the world, but it also means that planes, trains, ships, means that disease, coronaviruses and others spread incredibly quickly, too. So that network that the Mongols build in the 13th century has so many different ways in which I think they can help us illuminate the past, but also understand the present as well.

[Afwa Hirsch]

It's an increasingly vast network, but it's also becoming more fragmented as an empire, because after Ogede's death, the empire splits now into four parts through the 1250s. So you've got the Golden Horde in what's now Russia, a Chinese chunk that evolves into the Yuan dynasty and ends up uniting China by 1279, a Central Asian Khanate and a fourth part of the Mongol Empire around Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and several of the Central Asian stans.

[Peter Frankopan]

Peter yeah, and I think that those four branches have different destinies. They become quite resilient. They take on a different character by the 1250s, 1260s, 1270s. But, you know, it's estimated at its peak, the Mongols ruled over perhaps as many as half the world's population. At that time. And that's a kind of phenomenal achievement.

[Afwa Hirsch]

It's an unbelievable achievement for an illiterate man, Genghis Khan, who came literally from nowhere. And next we're going to look at what he left behind. What is the true legacy of Genghis Khan and of the Mongols today?

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[Afwa Hirsch]

Prices may vary. No individual has ruled so much territory in one vast block of land as Genghis Khan. The Mongols made a lasting impact on China, Russia, most of Central Asia and Iran. So I guess one of the main questions, Peter, is is it an exaggeration to say that as well as conquering huge swathes of land, Genghis Khan actually altered the course of human history?

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, I think they did lots of things. I mean, they created a template for global empires that I think becomes quite interesting in the age of European empire building. The problem is that the Mongols, because partly they don't create their own history writing, they get stigmatized and attacked in just about every single culture that you can think of. So in China, the Mongol yoke today as well is a highly negative, pejorative period of history and a source of perhaps even shame. In the Soviet Union, In Russia, the Mongols have had a very ambivalent role of being blamed for all sorts of things like the rise of authoritarianism. But even in the last few years, that's been tempered down because although China and the Mongol world are completely different, the Russians have worked out and learned to be slightly careful about denigrating people from East Asia. Because when China and Russia are sitting very closely together as military and political allies, talking about Genghis Khan and the Mongols and the damage they did, the Russians don't want to offend sensitivities and sensibilities. So, you know, I think that what Genghis Khan did, though, is built a world that creates connectivities, and maybe not free trade or fair trade, certainly, but to encourage the ways of boundaries being taken down and of sitting on top of states.

[Afwa Hirsch]

One of the things that I'm so interested in is this allegation that the Mongols didn't actually invent anything. What they were good at was harnessing the inventions of others, connecting goods, services, cultures, ideas, maybe even nurturing environments in which inventors and artisans and innovators could thrive. But they didn't actually create anything. There's this quote by Frank McLinn, the Genghis Khan biographer who we've referenced before, who said, while the Mongols military achievements were stupendous, they were otherwise totally parasitic. They were unoriginal, founded no new religions, produced no worthwhile cultural artifacts, developed no new crops or technologies, although they did transmit existing ones, created no worthwhile painting, pottery, architecture or literature, and did not even bake bread. They essentially relied on the captive craftsmen and experts for everything. That's a pretty strong claim that they were parasitic.

[Peter Frankopan]

Is it fair I'd cut my cloth slightly differently when you talk about innovation and who actually does the hard work? The person, I suppose, that one would think of today might be Elon Musk. He's not building rockets. He's not sitting there developing batteries. He employs people, gets people to invest in making him the richest man on the planet. You could say that if Frank McClint profiled Elon Musk, whether he'd say the same thing. I suppose the question is, why do we need to either denigrate or give credit? Surely anybody in their right mind would think if I have access to the cleverest people in a defined area or undefined area, I'd want to harness their skills and abilities as best I can. You know, I think that one can judge the Mongol worlds in terms of connectivity. They sit on top of these Silk Road networks that are facilitating trade merchandise to be moving and also the spread of ideas as well. Whether you need to have Mongol scholars or people who can take credit and have their eyes lit up in lights speaks I think to a different way that hierarchical societies in urban environments and universities, where a single individual is given credit for a breakthrough, rather than how tribal systems tend to work, which is that we're all in it together. If I had a choice of being exploited by Mongols or European empires, as long as you're not in the first wave, I'd probably think that the Mongols would be not a bad option.

[Afwa Hirsch]

I definitely agree that a lot of the analysis seems to me from a very Eurocentric perspective. And this idea that, you know, you have to have the patent on something to have contributed. The things that were created as a result of Mongol connection and empire are stupendous. I mean, so many things that have changed history arose from the connections that were created during that time. And the fact that Genghis Khan didn't stamp his personal copyright on them, I don't think diminishes their importance, good and bad.

[Peter Frankopan]

One of the things that I can sort of get over excited about is the tendency of scholars in the European tradition, and I don't want to make a big thing about Eurocentrism because somehow that becomes a kind of political statement rather than just how we've looked at history, is that quite often the sort of default is how do we tot up how much damage the Mongols did. And let's have a sort of score sheet to say how many people got killed and the records to be able to measure that are non existent by and large. And also the motivations to the people who do put numbers on things, for example in Persian texts written by Giovanni etc. In the 13th or 14th century, they're highly motivated to over exaggerate the extent of Mongol death tolls because they also wanting to show that the people who came to attack showed no mercy for their own personal reasons too. So it is about recalibrating that equilibrium and rather have it as a score sheet where you work out how many people did Mao kill, how many people did Stalin kill and how many people did Hitler kill? And shouldn't we be thinking of Chinggis Khan being in the all time hall of infamy rather than, you know, what are the legacies that persist through to the present day, which is very significant.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Just thinking about the relationship between China and Russia united under the Mongol Empire during the life of Genghis Khan and his sons. There's a theory that Now, Russia and China have a kind of common language of shared history, because of their experience of both having been under Mongol rule. And Timur Durga Zharpov, editor of Novaya Buratia, an independent political journal, has said Russia and China were both part of the great Mongol Empire. And we see the persistence of that influence on the Russian state, military and political culture to this day. When Vladimir Putin and Chinese leaders meet today and find common geopolitical language and China talks of using its economic might to re establish the old Silk Road, they are reaching back to that historical experience. It was totally different from the Western one, and it created societies that are very unlike the west, right down to their political DNA. Is that an overstatement of the legacy of Mongol conquest? Peter?

[Peter Frankopan]

Yes, it is, but he's writing from Buryatia, which traced their ancestry to the Mongols. It's an autonomous region, it's a republic inside Russia. And so I don't want to tell Buriat that they're wrong. I think where those legacies of what the Mongols do is in Timur's first name. So the successors of the Mongol Empire, the great successor is Timur, who builds a great empire, we better know him in England or in the British tradition as Tamburlaine, but creates a sort of second Mongol Empire or second nomad empire. Timur is very proud of his connections to Chinggis Khan and the Chinggisids. And then there's a third great state that's built that follows the same principles and the same sort of bloodline claims, which are the Mughals, who are descendants of Babura from Central Asia, from Uzbekistan, who then create a very distinctive culture in particularly northern India, which draws heavily on nomad traditions, on Mongol traditions, on Timur traditions, and on traditions from Persia that create a very distinctive legacy culturally, musically, in terms of fashions, clothes, foods, you name it, that is here alive to this day. So I understand why people want to talk about Russia and China as a kind of axis that somehow is united by the oppression created of the Mongols. So today no one wants to claim to be heirs of the Mongols, apart from the Budyats and the Mongols themselves, of course. Very proudly huge statue of Chinggis Khan in Ulaanbaatar. And, you know, Mongols are fantastically interesting people, incredibly diverse, very wealthy culture today. But there are these echoes and these resonances and the ripples of what it is that Chinggis Khan did that have spread a long way into global histories. And we overlook those by renaming the Timurids or the Moguls and separating them from the Mongols. And I think that we do that deliberately, actually, to try to push peoples in Asia into different categorization. That's not really helpful.

[Afwa Hirsch]

One of the major legacies of Genghis Khan for me, is because he was so little understood in Europe. When Christopher Columbus went to the king of Spain asking to be sponsored on his voyage, he claimed he was going in search of Genghis Khan's Mongols. That was the original inspiration for his voyage to go and find these mysterious people, learn more about them, and discover what remained of this evasive empire. He took a bit of a wrong turn and ended up, as we know, in the Americas. But it was his expectation of searching for the Mongols and this mysterious land in the east that led him to call the people he did encounter in the Americas Indians, from which we still have all of these names today. The West Indies, Native Americans, for so much of history were called Red Indians or American Indians. And it's really fascinating to think that had it not been for the extent of mystery that remained around the Mongols, we may not have had that history which opened up, as we know, a completely new era of bloody and violent conquest, this time by Europeans going west.

[Peter Frankopan]

What the Mongols do in European history and in European sensibilities is a sort of sense that we should be scared of people coming from the East. And I think that plays into different ways. One thinks about China in the 18th, 19th, 20th, and the 21st centuries to some extent, how one thinks about threats. In all the parts of the world that I work on, whether it's the Middle east, whether it's Russia, whether it's China, Pakistan, for most people in the west, these are places of concern. They're places that are unstable, they're dangerous. And in fact, when one looks at them in slightly different ways, the history, particularly of Asia, are ones of great empires and of great stability. That looks very different to the histories of Europe, where between the arrival of the Mongols and 1900, there wasn't a single decade that didn't involve a European war. Sometimes played out in different corners of the world. But, you know, we have little states in Europe, you know, Belgium or Luxembourg or the Netherlands, Denmark. Whereas, you know, you find Kazakhstan, which is bigger than most of Western Europe put together. You have people having to work out how to cooperate and work together. And I think the point is not to argue about whether I'm right or wrong about that. It's that our perceptions are that places are hostile and dangerous. And we don't see that in our own reflection. Where we Europeans have A worse legacy, I think, than Chinggis Khan and the Mongols do.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Have you seen Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, Peter? Sorry, just to maintain the really high brow tone.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's in my all time top five.

[Afwa Hirsch]

I don't know if you remember, but they choose eight characters who make the ideal history project and Genghis Khan makes an appearance in their top eight. So would Chinggis Khan be in your top all time historical figures, Peter?

[Peter Frankopan]

Oh, yeah, you bet. Partly. I've got a bit of Stockholm syndrome, you know, I've been captured by the worlds of interconnected Eurasian histories for far longer than I probably should have been. So, you know, I've always had a soft spot for trying to reevaluate people who have got negative reputations. Have I persuaded you, aphwa, that if you were going to do your top eight, would Chinggis Khan squeeze in somewhere near the bottom? Have we done enough?

[Afwa Hirsch]

Absolutely. He is in the top three of most important historical figures whose importance I had underestimated before I properly studied him. So I have no doubt and I have learned so much from learning about him and the legacy that he has on contemporary life. I mean, the idea of international law, of secularism, of building bureaucracies based on merit, of having paper money, I mean, these are things that are so important to modern life, really part of the fabric of modern globalisation. So he's up there for me now. Peter.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's such an opportunity to remind people that there are other parts of the world to think about, that there are checkered histories that are good and bad, that it matters who writes your history and how it gets written about. But those legacies have real significance in those parts of the world that were conquered. So in today's Iran, or in today's Central Asia, in today's India, Chinggis Khan means something very, very different to if you're studying the Mongols in a classroom somewhere in England or wherever you might be listening to this. And I think it's important to try to think about history from other people's perspectives and not just our own. So I'm incredibly grateful to have had the chance to speak for Mongol history and for connections across Eurasia. So thank you for humoring me for that. Yafwa, what about your 3 words to sign us off? Can you give us your three?

[Afwa Hirsch]

I think for me, my three words would be the most misunderstood because of all the figures we've looked at. I feel like the reputation and caricature really, of Genghis Khan that's ever popular. I mean, he does pop up in popular culture all the time is the hardest to reconcile with the actual detail and method of his life, how he lived, what he was trying to do. And that's not to gloss over the atrocities that are undeniably part of his record. But I think that that has so dominated the story that we are so ignorant of his genius. So that's my three words, the most misunderstood. What about you Peter?

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, I normally do my three very sort of overwrought thought through adjectives, but I'm just gonna go for love that guy this time.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Bold move.

[Peter Frankopan]

I never thought I'd end a podcast about Genghis Khan, aligning myself thanks to your very clever question Aphra with Ted Theodore Logan and Bill S. Preston. And if you haven't seen Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, you'll know that's one of the great historical films of all time. The way in which we think about the past. You can learn a lot from that. So anyway, so it's been a joy talking about the Mongols to talk about Chinggis Khan.

[Afwa Hirsch]

It's actually been such a privilege to talk about one of the great figures of the Silk Roads, never mind the great figures of history with the author of the Silk Roads, the world leading authority on the subject of Central Asia, the Mongols connections and trades. So yeah, I feel my brain expanding. Thank you Peter.

[Peter Frankopan]

Thanks Afwa and thank you for listening to this series of Legacy. Next week we're back with a brand new character and I'm really excited about this because he's arguably one of the most influential artists of the 20th century. Afwa, can I say imagine who it might be?

[Afwa Hirsch]

You can say that Peter, because we we are exploring the extraordinary life and legacy of the one and only John Winston Ono Lennon. From his troubled childhood through his generation defining career to his tragic and untimely death.

[Peter Frankopan]

Join us for that next time on Legacy.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey from Wondery and Goal Hanger. This is the final episode in our series on Genghis Khan.

[Peter Frankopan]

A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.

[Afwa Hirsch]

We've used many sources for this series, including Chinggis Khan, the Man who Conquered the world by Frank McLinn and Charles Halperin, Russia and the Golden Horde. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwa Hersh.

[Peter Frankopan]

And me, Peter Frankenbaum.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Scene writing is by Jack McKay for Goal Hanger.

[Peter Frankopan]

Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reed and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.

[Afwa Hirsch]

This series of Legacy is sound engineered and designed by Will Farmer.

[Peter Frankopan]

Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Fritz N. Sink.

[Afwa Hirsch]

Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Coinorte Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.

[Peter Frankopan]

Executive producers for Wondery are Aztel Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Leary. Laundry.