Peter Frankopan (2:58)

You know, as a historian the thing that I'm quite interested. One of the things I'm quite interested in is why there are suddenly purple patches of culture, literature, visual arts, music that sort of pop up. I guess we could think about the 1960s like that. But one of the areas when we talk about what topics we're going to cover is the golden 1930s in Paris, which is kind of bookending between two of the most traumatic events in European history, the First World War and the Second World War. But people like Gertrude Stein, like Picasso, you find lots of people we're going to talk about today who sort of gather in this amazing city in this particular window and are sparking off each other. So it's a kind of obvious place to start that you wanted to do Gertrude Stein. Tell me, what does Gertrude Stein mean to you? How did you discover her work in the first place?

Afua Hirsch (3:43)

Well, I think it's really interesting what we kind of know of her without really knowing. As a young person in my early 20s, I moved to Paris. I lived on the Left bank, on the Rive Gauche. I know it's an area you know very well, Peter. And till today, that part of Paris still has this reputation for being this bohemian den of creativity and the legacy of writers who shaped the 20th century. I inhabited that without really understanding who the characters were who'd created that legacy. So as I've learned more about F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, Picasso, Gertrude Stein emerges as the central figure, almost the matriarch, who created the space in which these incredible ideas could cross, fertilize and marinate. And together with her partner, Alice B. Toklas, she hosted these legendary salons at her apartment at 27 Rue de Fleurus, which is really the center of what's sometimes described as the lost generation, this interwar era of writers, artists who were finding new ways of self expression.

Peter Frankopan (4:47)

Do you remember where you lived in the sixth affo?

Afua Hirsch (4:49)

I did. I lived right by the Jardin des Plantes, I think it was the seventh actually, but it was very close to the sixth. So I was walking constantly around that whole area, St. Germain des Pres, Jardin des Plantes, the Pantheon, and imagining what it would have been like a century earlier, really, when these characters were living there. And by now, to say it's gentrified is an understatement. I mean, I lived in a tiny shoebox attic, but back then it was pretty impoverished. It was that mix of these kind of artists with huge visions and ideas but very little actual material wealth. Although Gertrude Stein is a bit of an Outlier because she had money.

Peter Frankopan (5:31)

Peter that's right. But I mean, even when you, when you walk around that part of Paris now, which is sort of just completely golden, you feel ghosts is probably the wrong word, isn't it? But you feel the kind of legacies of the poets, the writers, the penniless, the hyperachie who were there too, that there is something special about that little corner of that great city of Paris that I think attracted people like Gertrude Stein obviously in the first place. And she was from, as we're going to hear from, a comfortable monied background. But again, that almost makes things harder to understand because by and large, pulling all these people together, you've got to be able to host people, you've got to be willing to be generous. And lots of people we're talking about, you mentioned Picasso, Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald and his wife Zelda are complicated, difficult people with big sized egos and insecurities. But. So Gertrude Stein was the kind of glue that pulled them all together.

Afua Hirsch (6:22)

And she absolutely belonged in that domain of complicated people with big egos. She was a complicated character. And let's just think about the broad strokes of that. She is a Jewish woman living in France during both world wars, including during the Nazi occupation, in a lesbian relationship in the 1910s and 20s. At a time and that was far from socially acceptable. And at a time when women were still fighting for equal rights and representation, she was absolutely running things in the arts and literary scene. So she was defying all kinds of odds. But when you look at the dynamics of how she managed her identity, her relationship and her friendships, she was a difficult, complicated, problematic person as well.

Peter Frankopan (7:09)

And she is not without her own pretensions. Intolerably repetitive prose. I mean, it was interesting, that sort of semi cubist quote you read at the beginning. But it's not easy to read or listen to or to make sense of what she's trying to do. So it's inventive, but it's not straightforward. And then the question about whether she sells out her heritage, collaboration with the Nazis during one of the darkest periods in history of Europe, you know, so it's a complicated story, but this is part of a series we're going to do on Paris in the early 20th century because it's a city and a period that means a lot to both of us. Who else are we going to talk about? Afwa.

Afua Hirsch (7:44)

We're going to look at Ernest Hemingway, who was her protege at one point and obviously emerged as one of the great writers of the 20th century. And this is a story that I have always loved and been fascinated by the Negritude movement with thinkers, intellectuals, writers like Aime Cesaire, Leopold Senghor, who are creating really new ideas out of this history of Pan Africanism, a new philosophy of the black personality and the African mind. And of course, Josephine Baker, who is a cultural figure in her own category, really straddling from exotic dancer to spy and major asset to the allied forces in the Second World War as a black woman living in Paris. So there are such incredible characters, we thought it deserved a whole series and we're starting, which really is kind of appropriate at the beginning with Gertrude Stein.

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Parent (9:17)

Knock knock.

Peter Frankopan (9:18)

Ooh, who's there?

Parent (9:19)

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Peter Frankopan (9:25)

You call that a knock knock joke?

Parent (9:27)

This isn't a joke. Boost Mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or work.

Peter Frankopan (9:31)

Okay. It's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.

Parent (9:35)

Like I said, this isn't a joke.

Peter Frankopan (9:36)

So the knock knock was just you knocking?

Parent (9:39)

Yeah, that's how doors work.

Peter Frankopan (9:40)

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro delivered and set up by an expert wherever you are. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply. So Gertrude Stein is born in Pennsylvania in 1874. Her family moves around quite a bit. As a child, she spent some time growing up in Europe, and then her parents settle in Oakland, California, where this is mainly where she grows up. And she lives in a well to do family background where she has governesses and tutors. Her father is the governor of the San Francisco Market Street Railway. And when she starts to go to school, it's obvious that she's precocious. And we know that because she finds school boring. Like lots of precocious children do and finds solace, which not everybody does, in reading, particularly reading people like Shakespeare and Wordsworth and Henry Fielding.

Afua Hirsch (10:38)

And although she has, in some ways a very privileged life, it's not without tragedy. Both her parents die in quite quick succession during her teenage years. First her mother and then her father. So she becomes an orphan. As the youngest of five children, though she has older siblings who look after her. And her older brother Michael, in particular, is a very competent businessman. He invests the inheritance from their parents into the San Francisco cable car industry at a time when that industry is absolutely booming. And he sets things up so well that all of the siblings are endowed with essentially a secure, safe, stable income for life.

Peter Frankopan (11:14)

And it's a clever family. You know, they're very interested in intellectually curious. So Gertrude's brother Leo heads off to Harvard, and she goes with him. At that time, she joins Ratcliffe, which is an annex of Harvard. Now it's part of it, too. And she studies with William James, who encourages her to think of her scientific studies in a sort of. It's quite a progressive way. So she gets very interested in ideas about streams of consciousness. So some of those things, like the quote at the beginning Afro that you mentioned, it's not just replicating what's going on in art. It's about how you let your imagination be freed. So this is a time of experimentation, of trial, of attempts to sort of push boundaries that you see in lots of different arts at the same time.

Afua Hirsch (11:54)

And pushing boundaries in terms of what you can get away with at university. Because this is an example of how audacious Gertrude Stein is even at this young age. She shows up for a philosophy exam with her professor, William Jaynes, but she hasn't done any studying or preparation. So on her exam paper she writes, dear Professor James, I am so sorry, but really, I do not feel a bit like an examination paper in philosophy today. Gets up, leaves the examination room, and even more unbelievably, the next day, she receives a postcard from her professor saying, Dear Ms. Stein, I understand perfectly how you feel. I often feel like that myself. And then he gives her the highest grade in the course. Okay, Peter, As a professor at Oxford who teaches many, I'm sure, audacious and often precocious students, is that something that would lead you to give your student a top mark?

Peter Frankopan (12:46)

I don't think so, but I mean, in fact, the question I always thought you were going to ask me was, why did I never think of doing that in any of the exams? I went to. It never crossed my mind to just say, look, I'm sorry, but it's slightly frowned on to reward students for being too much of a smart ass. But did you ever leave exams early?

Afua Hirsch (13:02)

Afraid not. Unless I found it so totally easy that I finished in record time.

Peter Frankopan (13:08)

So the answer is yes. Often.

Afua Hirsch (13:10)

I do remember, though, there was this kind of urban legend when I was an undergraduate that there was an All Souls exam. And All Souls is this Oxford College that's basically impossible to get into. You have to be invited, having got a top first as an undergraduate. And it's known as like the biggest brains. And there was this rumor that there had been an essay for the All Souls entry exam which had asked the applicants to write an essay on the meaning of courage and that the winning student had written this. And I was like, that is clever, because that is courage. Anyway, I wish I'd thought of that. And I feel like if you did something like that, I can see a case for awarding it. But this is just. This isn't like an expression of philosophical genius. This is just like, I haven't done my homework. Please can I go now? Yeah, it's more often, Please can I go now? I'm going now.

Peter Frankopan (14:00)

I'm not really in the mood, the professor to say, yeah, no, that's great, have the top mark. I'm not sure that makes you very popular with your peers. But I mean, the amazing thing is that it doesn't hurt her character. I mean, what it tells you is that people like her or important people like her or they are prepared to tolerate maybe because they see something special, maybe because, you know, there are slightly darker reasons sometimes why these kinds of things happens when professors give a free pass to people they take a shine to. So. But it doesn't feel entirely ethical, but it doesn't hurt her career. She goes to John Hopkins in Baltimore as one of the first people ever to study at their medical school. And you kind of would like to think that the person who's going to look after your brain, which is what she pays attention to, would. Would have done all the exams and not just turn up. I don't really feel like operating on you today. She's very interested in the idea about attention spans as she views words as physical entities or paint colors and not just as narrative tools. So she wants people to trust her. And it's quite interesting, I think, that a young woman working in neurosciences is trying to think about how the mind works. And I guess that helps explain why she becomes one of these inventive thinkers later.

Afua Hirsch (15:10)

I think you're right. You know, we've made fun of her being audacious, but there's obviously something special and unusual about her. She's a genuinely original thinker and she's very serious about her interests, which are these neurological investigations of how the mind works and how that translates into not just medicine and science, but writing. And the experimental writing that she becomes famous for is really part of that interest. She wants to know how you can use words on the page in a way that isn't conventional storytelling, but is kind of tapping into something different about our neurology. So that's very avant garde, experimental, unconventional, but at the same time, she doesn't want to be this obscure figure. She wants. Wants to be, even from this young age, a famous writer. And this is a kind of tension that we'll see throughout her life, that on the one hand, she wants to be this quite deep intellectual, doing radical and almost subversive things, but on the other hand, she wants quite mainstream acknowledgment, recognition, fame, glory. And it's hard at this point to see how those two things will go together, because her writing is really unusual, in my opinion, quite difficult to read. And also, then, Peter, there's her personal life and the way that she's setting that up.

Peter Frankopan (16:25)

It's always hard with these, as we've talked about this so many times, Apha, about whether sometimes trauma and difficulty are the making of greatness. So, I mean, if she'd had a sort of straightforward personal life, then maybe she'd have stayed as a neuroscientist and achieved fame in that field. We're not quite sure where her sexuality came from or how she explored it, but we do know that she got into a messy relationship with two other women and then abruptly dropped out of Medical School in 1903. So some of that, I think, is to do with ideas about sexuality at the time. But I think not only. I think it's also about the complications of having tempestuous relationships with people who you love. And what Gertrude does is she clears the deck, she leaves. And doesn't just leave Baltimore, she leaves the United States, heads to Paris. And Paris is where she kind of finds her niche and finds her home and finds a platform where she can be the centre of attention and also connect to other people at the centre of attention, too.

Afua Hirsch (17:16)

Gertrude Stein was very close to her brother Leo, and he had already moved to Paris. So in 1903, she's 29. She decides to follow him there. She Starts a new life, leaves America, leaves this messy, queer love triangle that she's got herself in and living in Paris with her brother and their cable car fortunes, they start buying art. Initially, it's literally just because they have this apartment at Rue de Fleurus and they want to decorate it.

Peter Frankopan (17:46)

So they start to buy art just to do up their home. But as it turns out, they're both very inquisitive and they've got incredible taste. So they're amongst the first people in Paris to really get and take a shine to the works of Matisse and Picasso. And Picasso's nothing like the superstar that he's going to become. I mean, at this time, he's on the verge of breaking into Cubism, so it's really early in his career, but they can spot something in what he's trying to do. And I guess I don't what you think afraid as Americans and outsiders, you know, you can either turn up in Paris and start buying old masters and making it look like you're living in the 17th century, or you. You're looking for things that are cutting edge because it reflects your own identities as outsiders and so on. So they take a lot of chances. Do you think that's. That's why they discover it, or do you think that it's about a much deeper understanding of art and engagement in the philosophy of painting?

Afua Hirsch (18:36)

I think it's the latter. And I kind of miss this now in the art scene, you know, this idea of people who just buy art because they're curious and they want to experience something different, and they're not putting questions of financial returns and how much the work will appreciate front and foremost. You don't get the sense that this interest in Matisse and Picasso has anything to do with a concrete prediction that this is going to be lucrative. They just following their interests, and that's exactly what art appreciation should be. And I think that they really get credit for that. So they're following their interest in art. And this is one of the things I find so interesting about Gertrude Stein, for her visual art. Painting and literature are completely intertwined. And so while she is immersing herself in this world of modernist art, she's also immersing herself in. In her ideas about literature and she's pursuing her writing career in earnest. She really wants to be a successful writer. And this brings her slightly into conflict with her brother Leo, to whom she had been so close.

Peter Frankopan (19:39)

I think one of the challenges is that Leo doesn't understand who he really is. He's Got lots of, he tries lots of different careers as a painter, as a scientist, philosopher, art historian. I think Gertrude Stein recognizes that there's an ecosystem of new ideas and she feels that she belongs. And that confidence of seeing people like Picasso or Matisse experiment, it makes her feel that she has found her family. And so while he loses himself and thinks he doesn't know exactly what he wants from life and is he just going to spend money? She thinks, right, I found my people. And as a result, she becomes convinced that because she's in a world full of geniuses, that she must be one too. And she's got one of her great quotes. I mean, Afro, you asked if I've ever left an exam or marked someone, but I mean, it's quite gutsy. Her line about genius, right, slowly and.

Afua Hirsch (20:29)

In a way was not astonishing, but slowly I was knowing that I was a genius. That's a classic Gertrude Stein quote. And so while you have Leo Stein, who is maybe actually too hypercritical of himself, it's, it means that he abandons things, he doesn't see things to fruition because he's too aware of his flaws and imperfections. She's the opposite extreme. She is quite comfortable with the idea that she's a genius. And in this atmosphere of Paris, the old world populated by all these artists, playwrights, writers, she feels convinced of her destiny to be among them. And so that is opening up this gulf with her brother. Not least because Leo is not a fan of her writing. Peter, he calls it abominable.

Peter Frankopan (21:18)

Well, you always, always ask your siblings for her to bring you back down to earth. But Gertrude, it's not ruthless how she deals with her brother, but she basically gets him replaced. So Leo moves out and Gertrude's lover, Alice B. Toklas, moves in with her instead. And Alice's role is to help a genius be a genius full time. So she's the kind of person who looks after Gertrude all the time. So in the kind of move out period, he and Gertrude split the furniture, split the paintings, and he goes off to go and live in Florence. And it's quite a sad breakdown, it really is.

Afua Hirsch (21:54)

And they actually had been living together in an awkward threesome for a while. So Alice B. Toklas had moved in while she was still living with Leo. But as their relationship intensified, that only contributed to, to the breakdown of her relationship with Leo. And Gertrude has this character where she basically needs to be serviced, she needs to be left alone to be the genius that she is while somebody else does all the domestic and financial and social drudgery. And Leo had played that role while he was there. And in a way, she's able to let him go because now Alice, her partner, is able to replace him. And as we'll see for life, Alice very much understands the assignment. She serves Gertrude Stein and caters to her every need. And it's a little bit of a problematic dynamic that I think we'll talk about more, you know, and usually where we're used to talking about in the context of a kind of patriarchal system where a man is kind of pursuing his creative genius while his wife does all the domestic drudgery, this lesbian relationship has those dynamics where Gertrude Stein is the genius and Alice Toklas does all of the other work. But it certainly allows her to focus on something else while her relationship with Leo just slips away. And she says there was no reason for it, but he was not there. There was a reason for it. At the beginning of the ending. We always had been together, and now we were never at all together. Little by little, we never met again. So that's also classic Gertrude style. Kind of repetitive, slightly incomprehensible use of language. But you do get the meaning and I think the sadness that that comes through that really this. This sibling relationship that's so important since she's lost both her parents is now slipping away.

Parent (23:46)

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At a playground?

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Parent (24:08)

Mommy, I think your kid is walking up the slide.

Parent (24:11)

Kyle again?

Peter Frankopan (24:12)

Really?

Parent (24:13)

Auto trader. Buy your car online. Really?

Peter Frankopan (24:28)

Okay, Afra. So we're back in Paris now in a global center. This is Belle Epoque. This is the place to be if you're wealthy, if you're creative, and above all, if you're American, because you've got dollars and you've got confidence brimming. I mean, there's something very special about Paris after in this period. It's the Belle Epoque. It's the perfect place if you're wealthy, if you're innovative, if you're creative, and above all, if you're American and you've got dollars in your pockets to spend. I mean, could you imagine being in anywhere else in the world? Would you. Would you move to Paris in the early 19, in the early 20th century.

Afua Hirsch (25:01)

If you've got dollars, it's a very smart move. And a few dollars goes a long way in Paris. The American economy is much stronger. But it's an interesting mix of situations in this social circle, because while the Steins have money to spend, Picasso is living in pretty squalid conditions. If you listen to our Picasso series, it's not kind of noble poverty. It's proper poverty, like no heating, no food, rats and filth. But he doesn't seem to be that bothered because he's so hyper focused on his art.

Peter Frankopan (25:36)

Plus, he's sort of a very nice person, if you. Without spoiling those episodes. Right. It turns out that Picasso is a genius, but a really bad man.

Afua Hirsch (25:43)

He is just such. Such a problematic character and so cruel to many people in his life, as well as abusive. But none of the people in this era are really free from those same allegations.

Peter Frankopan (25:56)

That's, I think, fair. Yeah.

Afua Hirsch (25:58)

It's one of the things that makes it an interesting time. They're objectively creating new ideas and art that has really stood the test of time. But their personal lives are messy. A car crash.

Peter Frankopan (26:10)

Unpleasant. Yeah.

Afua Hirsch (26:11)

So sign spots Picasso, 1905. She and her brother buy Young Girl with a Basket of Flowers and several other paintings from the Rose period, which we covered in detail in our series. And she literally keeps him from starving by buying these works. I mean, he'd been burning his sketches to keep his stove lit. And because he now had this patron in the Steins, it allowed Picasso to continue painting what he wanted to paint, rather than having to turn to commercially appealing pieces that would just put money in his pocket. And as any artist can relate, this is the fantasy, is that you've got someone who is willing to fund your crazy ideas, your experimentation. You don't have to think about seeking approval or selling commercially. You can just do the work that feeds you creatively. And that's really the atmosphere in which Picasso is able to probe and develop cubism.

Peter Frankopan (27:06)

And that painting Afro you mentioned, Younger with a basket of Flowers that Gertrude, her brother, buy for 800 francs. That's a fortune for Picasso at the time. That sold at Christie's in 2018. Do you have a guess how much that. That 800 franc cost had gone up to value?

Afua Hirsch (27:21)

How much, Peter?

Peter Frankopan (27:23)

$116 million. So it's.

Afua Hirsch (27:26)

It's like hard to even get. Wrap your head around that kind of.

Peter Frankopan (27:29)

Money over the course of 100 years. That's a decent return. What it actually shows, apart from the money is an eye for seeing stuff that's new and really recognizing it as such and championing it, too. So all artists are on their way to try to connect with audiences. And that patronage that the Steins give is incredibly important. And because Picasso knows that Gertrude and Leo are going to buy his work, he doesn't have to think too much about commerciality. He doesn't need to think too much about who's going to feed him, because he's got a patron who's going to buy things that's going to allow him to experiment more. So she really does play, like you said, a really important part, maybe not discovering Picasso, but allowing him to start on that trajectory, that allows him to become probably the most famous artist in the modern world.

Afua Hirsch (28:15)

And she's not just buying Picasso's art, which in itself is transformative because it allows him to stay alive and keep painting, but she hangs it in what is becoming the most important room in Paris, the Rue de Fleurus Salon. And that is a place where other important artists are going to see it and start to be aware of Picasso as well. So in 1906, at one of her salons, Gertrude introduces Picasso to Henri Matisse. And Matisse is already established by now. He's older than Picasso. He's the king of the four of wild beasts. And this meeting sparks what many people regard as the greatest artistic rivalry of the 20th century, because the desire to unseat Matisse as the leader of the avant garde absolutely fuels Picasso. He is living off the fumes of his envy, and it's an important catalyst in allowing Picasso to become the Picasso that we know. And in addition to that, the Stein Salon gives Picasso direct access not just to this great rival, but to international collectors, writers, and critics. It's putting his work in front of the people who can translate it to the world at a time when it really is incredibly avant garde and help him sell it.

Peter Frankopan (29:28)

Do you understand that? Competition, F word. I mean, I mean, I guess I was just thinking when you're talking, if you write books or if you even record podcasts, you know, you're aware that there are other people doing similar things. Well, that's what I've heard.

Afua Hirsch (29:44)

Nobody's doing anything like what we're doing.

Peter Frankopan (29:47)

But how does that competition sharpen and change how artists, how these guys are actually thinking about each other? Is it that they're constantly eyeing each other up and trying to. To nick ideas off each other? Do you think it's more in the context of just being driven to work Harder. Put more hours in to get in front of more people. How does that competition sharpen up, do you think? What, what, what drives those, that, that, that those juices, you know, the fumes of, of envy.

Afua Hirsch (30:12)

Oh, let's be clear. I only write non fiction books because of my burning desire to unseat Peter Frankopan as the king of the intelligent non fiction. Say no, I'm joking.

Peter Frankopan (30:23)

One book every 10 years. That's what I get up to.

Afua Hirsch (30:26)

Do you know what? I find conversations that I have with you off camera and off mic, about the world of academic historians fascinating because it is a rivalrous world and I inhabit a space of journalists that's equally rivalrous. Writers, authors, I mean, people really do pay attention to what the people they regard as their peers are doing, how much they're getting for their advances, what festivals they're invited to, how many books they're selling, what podcasts they have. It is a, is a world that can be a little bit toxic if you buy in to the competition. And I think what allows you to stay grounded and not become a horrible person is making sure that you're doing the work for you, not because you want to sell, but it is a.

Peter Frankopan (31:11)

World that's incredibly generous too. People, you know, they read your work, they comment on it, you don't always get shot in public. Sometimes, sometimes the criticisms can be stinging, but more often than that, there's constructive stuff that helps you before you publish, you know, so it's a very generous community too. So, but, but I think it's the competition that I think is, is the bit that's interesting about, and I don't mean about who's more visible or who's selling more copies, but about where those ideas are most are sharpest and most exciting.

Afua Hirsch (31:39)

So I think you find your community of supportive people who champion you and you champion them. And you know, there will always be people who are like ruthlessly competitive and rivalrous out there, but there will also be people who are on the same mission of feeling like they're, you know, it's not a competition, it's not scarcity that you're all contributing to the same work of telling important stories. That's what I find fascinating about these salons and this Gertrude Stein space. It's a weird combination of the two because Gertrude Stein is a huge facilitator. She's a hyper connector. She's introducing people to the other people who will make their career, who'll introduce them to the publisher or the art collector that's going to change their life. And she's not doing that for personal gain. She seems to genuinely believe in facilitating the arts. But all of these people both help and support and champion each other, but then also have these huge falling outs, really cruel public undressings of each other, shots fired. It's a very strange blend of supporting and trying to bring each other down. It creates incredible drama. But if I had been there, I would have been quite worried about the mental health and wellbeing of the people in the circle.

Peter Frankopan (32:53)

I have to say I'd have stayed out of their crosshairs. But, but I'm interested for, you know, I, I know that you, you know so much about Stein before anyway, but to tell me about how she sees her own role in creating Picasso, because she doesn't hold back in trying to think this is just a genius and she happened to be along for the ride. With a good eye, she, she, she makes herself fundamental to, to his story.

Afua Hirsch (33:15)

In so many ways. And it's symbiotic because she is so inspired by his work and it actually fuels her writing. But she also credits herself with helping turn him into the painter he is. And I think these overlapping stories really coalesce in, I want to call it a single moment where Picasso paints Gertrude Stein's portrait. But it's not a single moment because goes on forever. It takes 80 or 90 sittings for Picasso to paint Gertrude Stein's portrait. And at the end of those 90 sittings, he basically says, I can't look at you anymore. And he irritably storms out and goes on vacation to Spain. But when he comes back, he finishes painting Stein from memory and it becomes his famous mask like portrait of Stein. It's actually one of my favorite Picassos. And it's a seminal moment in his work that kind of launches him into a new era. It's a very, very famous painting that the thing that you don't see if you look at that painting is that while she was sitting for those 90 sittings, Gertrude Stein was composing sentences in her head that would become central to her writing. And she typically modestly says the sentences she wrote in her head while sitting for Picasso's portrait of her were the first step out of the 19th century and into the 20th century in literature.

Peter Frankopan (34:38)

Not the most modest verdict of one's own literary contribution. And I guess maybe you're lucky if you live in the sort of turning point of a century, then you can do that. I mean, otherwise, you know, you're the turning point between 2014 and 2015. Doesn't sound quite so good. But, you know, I think that the idea that she's sitting there cogitating while Picasso is going bonkers with frustration and presumably the demands of trying to get it right, you know, painting your patron is not going to be easy. Why is it you like that portrait? So, Marshal, for what is it about the portrait of Gertrude Stein that sings to you?

Afua Hirsch (35:13)

I think it's, for me, classic Picasso, that, you know, it's a real step into Cubism for him. It's the way that he has captured her without painting her literally. And that, of course, is the genius of art, right? To be able to tell a story that is greater than the sum of its parts. And you can imagine what he set out to do, which was to paint a more conventional portrait, I don't think would have had anything like the impact and the emotion that the ultimate painting has, even though it's a lot more abstract. And it also, I think, captures things about Stein that when you start to learn more about her, you really see her. And one of the things actually, I mean, it's going to sound shallow, but it isn't. I think a fascinating part of her character is her physical appearance, Peter, because she has. How shall I put this? A singular appearance. Okay, I'm going to read you a quote from the writer Mabel Dodge. This is how she describes her in Intimate Memories. Gertrude Stein was prodigious. Pounds and pounds and pounds piled up on her skeleton. Not the billowing kind, but massive, heavy fat. She wore some covering of corduroy or velvet, and her crinkly hair was brushed back and twisted up high behind her jolly, intelligent face. She would arrive sweating, her face parboiled. And when she sat down, fanning herself with her broad brimmed hat with its wilted dark brown ribbon, she exhaled a vivid steam all around her. When she got up, she frankly used to pull her clothes off from where they stuck to her great legs. Yet with all this, she was not at all repulsive. On the contrary, she was positively, richly attractive in her grand ampleur. She always seemed to like her own fat anyway, and that usually helps other people to accept it. She had none of the funny embarrassments Anglo Saxons have about flesh. She gloried in hers. Yeah, a cool quote, because it gives you a sense of. Just. Now, I think we would describe that as like, body positive, fat positive, unapologetic. She was a woman who was very comfortable with the idea that she should take up space in the world. And it was almost like she didn't. It wasn't that she didn't mind being fat. It was like being fat was appropriate because she was a huge person in every sense, in sense of her mind, her ideas, her legacy. And I just think there's something interesting about a woman who was so aware of that and celebrated it in real time. And very, very unusual because this is Paris. If you've been to Paris, you'll know that Parisians are obsessed with their weight. They never went through a body positive period, especially as far as I can work out. Everyone's always talking about their lean and their diet and you know, women are very, very and sometimes quite toxically interested in being thin. And this is now you can imagine then when, you know, there was much less diversity that was acceptable in body shapes. So it was quite a subversive way to live, actually.

Peter Frankopan (38:12)

Not for the first time. Afra, you're more generous than I am. I mean, I think, you know, I sort of cringe reading and listening to that. And, you know, we're laced with a little bit of anti Semitism. She doesn't have the funny embarrassments that Anglo Saxons have about flesh because of course, otherwise she'd be nice and trim. You know, she glories in the fact that she's clinically obese, you know, the fact that the sweat is everywhere and she sort of peel her clothes off, that's probably positive, I guess, in one way. But there are different ways of doing this stuff. And she's a larger than life figure, as you say, in all ways and shapes of forms. But it's very difficult when you have somebody who's. Who dominates the room, who dominates and takes away all the oxygen and is talking about herself in these kind of incredibly over the top terms about her own, her own genius. So she's quite an antagonistic character, Gertrude Stein. And I think some of it is about how much empowerment you're given by people who are your fellow travelers and wanting to try and sponge off to you because as well as being a great hostess because Gertrude Stein has this wealth to play with, you know, she's. She's cut from very different cloth to the people that she's running with and wants to be friends with. But tell me a bit more, Aphra, about her relationship with Alice, because we're going to come on to some of the juicy stuff about Gertrude's life in the next episode.

Afua Hirsch (39:26)

Well, you called her domineering and that's absolutely the right word. She lives in this lesbian relationship with Alice B. Toklas. The word lesbian, of course, is never publicly used by either of them, because this is a time when that is just not a word that you use publicly. But there's no question as to the intensity of their intimate sexual attraction. And it's documented by Stein's erotic poems, which were published after her death, as well as by the memories of contemporaries. But this is not to romanticize their relationship because Gertrude Stein was completely dependent on Alice. And, you know, we talk a lot about a fair division of labour, about gender roles. This is how their division of labour worked. Alice did everything, Gertrude did nothing. I'm actually not exaggerating.

Peter Frankopan (40:16)

No.

Afua Hirsch (40:18)

And she said this is something that she wrote cheerfully. This is a precondition for her incredible genius. It takes a lot of time to be a genius. You have to sit around so much doing nothing, really doing nothing. So she's not. And this is a quote from her book, Everybody's Autobiography, she's again, unapologetic. And you know, that kind of sounds empowering. I mean, I love the idea of sitting around doing nothing and just allowing my creative juices to flow. But the reality of a person who's doing nothing is that somebody else is having to do the labor that allows them to do nothing. And that somebody is 100% Alice B. Toklas.

Peter Frankopan (40:56)

And it's, you know, it's entitlement, right? So Gertrude won't unpack her suitcase. When a photographer who's looking for something else, everyone does, she says, could this time make a phone call. And Ty says, I would never do that. Ms. Toklas always does that. So the photographer says to Ty, what can you do? And she says, well, I could put my hat on and I could take my hat off and I could put my coat on and I could take it off and I like water and I could drink a glass of water. You know, that, that can sound quite funny, but it's very egocentric narcissistic personality disorder and so on. So I take your body positive affair. And it's a generous way of looking at it. But there's something about Gertrude Steinheim that is, you know, she's a difficult, complicated, spoiled, entitled person as well, Right?

Afua Hirsch (41:42)

I mean, even the way she writes, which is her thing, right. Is almost entirely labor free. So again, from Mabel Dodger's book Intimate Memories, we've got this rare glimpse of Gertrude Stein at her desk. And she, in 1912, was at the Villa Colonia where she used to go with Aliceby topless. It was late at night. According to Mabel Dodge, Stein was writing automatically in a long, weak handwriting four or five lines to the page, letting it ooze up from deep down inside her, down onto the paper with the least possible physical effort. She would cover a few pages and leave them there and go to bed. And in the morning Alice would gather them up. So Toclus isn't even typing her work, not even writing it neatly. She just kind of oozes it out onto her notebooks and Toklas does the rest. And it's real work gathering them up, putting the right order, having them typed. And it's just the extreme of entitlement, as you put it, Peter.

Peter Frankopan (42:45)

And you know we're going to do Ernest Hemingway, but Hemingway sees this relationship and he sees it for what it is, which is toxic over dependence. And he reacts extremely badly to it, to the point that he has a breakdown in his friendship with Stein to tell us about. I mean, Hemingway was himself not the most sympathetic character, to put it mildly, but he knows one when he sees one, and I think he reacts extremely badly. But why does he do that?

Afua Hirsch (43:13)

Yeah, it's kind of rich coming from Hemingway to complain about an abusive relationship. But basically he reports overhearing this dynamic between the couple which he finds really disturbing. So disturbing that he says, the colorless alcohol felt good on my tongue and it was still in my mouth when I heard someone speaking to Ms. Stein, as I had never heard one person speak to another, never anywhere, ever. Then Ms. Stein's voice came back pleading and begging, don't, pussy, don't, please don't. It's kind of this suggestion that something so abusive or unfair had happened that Alice B. Toklas speaks to Gertrude Stein in a way that he's never heard anyone speak before. And then Gertrude Stein regrets what she starred and then begs Alice B. Tokless not to go. But you know, anyone who's ever witnessed that kind of relationship, it's almost a kind of abusive relationship dynamic where you push your partner to such a brink and then beg them to take you back and then they forgive you and then you repeat the cycle again. Gertrude Stein, if we were to give her a right of reply to that allegation, would say that this was Hemingway taking revenge on her because he'd initially been her most devoted student. But then he basically began to outgrow her she felt was ungrateful for all the support that that she'd given him and that he used this allegation about the unhealthy dynamic in their relationship as a form of vengeance. If that sounds a little bit far fetched, Hemingway, as you'll see when we cover him in a couple of episodes. Time was definitely in a pattern where if he fell out with someone, he would write something damning about their relationship as a way to wound them publicly. So this just kind of speaks to the dynamic of the whole group, that they were all difficult people with abusive tendencies in extractive relationships that frequently led to them betraying each other. And I can't think of a nicer way of putting it than that.

Peter Frankopan (45:11)

That hypercompetitive instincts that all of this group have, I guess is. Is part and parcel of their success on the one hand. But, you know, they're all. Therefore they have their. Their deep flaws, but so that there is a real proper falling out. And as Hemingway attacks Stein, Stein also savages Hemingway, calling him yellow, saying that she taught him everything. And they have a breakdown that they never really put right. But Alice B. Toklas, and I love how the Americans always do the in the middle initial, the Alice B. Toklas anyway. But she's a culinary genius who writes her own cookbook. I don't know whether you would recommend her recipes, whether you've tried them in your diligent preparation for our episode.

Afua Hirsch (45:52)

What I did do in my diligent preparation for our episode is go to the amazing restaurant in central London called Toklas, which is named after and inspired by LSB Toklas. And I've never realized that Alice B. Topless inspired food. Have you been there, Peter?

Peter Frankopan (46:07)

No, but I mean, I mean, I have been to tourists, but just those. I've still got a few brain cells that need to be knitted together.

Afua Hirsch (46:13)

No, I know. You didn't even necessarily make the connection. It is an Alice B. Tokless themed restaurant. It's so good. The team behind it were the team who created the Frieze Art Fair. So they're super cultured and you can see why they're in the world of Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas. And the reason that Toklas is still inspiring chefs restaurateurs is that she was a culinary genius. And partly because she had to do all the cooking because Gertrude Stein didn't touch any domestic labor ever. But it was way more than that. She wrote her own cookbook, which is still sometimes cited by people as a real classic. And it includes nuggets like the French never add Tabasco, ketchup, or Worcester sauce, nor do they eat any of the innumerable kinds of pickles, nor do they accompany a meat course with radishes, olives, or salted nuts. True and she also gives us a little bit of insight into the cooking dynamic in her relationship with Gertrude Stein. In her cookbook, she writes of a gift of being given these pigeons. Now, I've never attempted to prepare a pigeon from like a whole bird with feathers on it to a dish on a plate, but it sounds like a lot of work. And she writes, six white pigeons to be smothered, to be plucked, to be cleaned, and all this to be accomplished before Gertrude Stein returned for she didn't like to see the work being done. Wow.

Peter Frankopan (47:32)

Yes. Well, you know, I don't know whether you've ever plucked a bird. I can see why she wouldn't want to be there. And most people don't like to think too much about whether the food on the table has come from. But, you know, that heavy industry that Alice Toklas is doing compared to Gertrude Stein swanning around and being convinced of her own genius is a big distinction between the two. I mean, I guess what sums up their relationship is that the author, as we've just sort of hinted at, of Alice B. Toklas autobiography called the Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas isn't actually Alice herself, is it? Afua?

Afua Hirsch (48:06)

No. This is for me, one of the most puzzling things ever in literature. Because the Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas, which really became a literary sensation, is not the autobiography of Alice B. Toklas. It is Gertrude Stein purporting to be Alice B. Toklas, writing her story for her and claiming all the credit. And it becomes, to her slight annoyance, her most successful book. But more on that in the next episode.

Peter Frankopan (48:37)

Thanks for listening to Legacy.

Afua Hirsch (48:39)

Don't forget to hit subscribe on your favourite podcast player. You can also watch all our episodes on YouTube, so make sure you're subscribed there too.

Peter Frankopan (48:47)

And of course, we're on all the socials. The links are in the show notes or just search for us on Legacy podcast. And as a favour, if you've enjoyed this episode, please just tell one person who you think will enjoy listening to us talk about Gertrude Stein. I'm Peter Frankerpin.

Afua Hirsch (48:59)

I'm Afua Hirsch. And we'll see you on the next episode of of Legacy.

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