Legacy Podcast: Gertrude Stein | Oozing Cubism | Episode 2

Hosts: Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan
Release Date: February 19, 2026

Overview

This episode continues Legacy’s deep dive into the life and impact of Gertrude Stein—literary innovator, cultural gatekeeper, and paradoxical icon. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan explore Stein’s experimental writing, her famed Paris salon, complex relationships, and moral ambiguities during WWII. They scrutinize whether she deserves the reputation she holds and what her true legacy is, especially in light of her relationships, self-perception, and survival during Nazi-occupied France.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Gertrude Stein’s Experimental Writing: Genius or Nonsense?

• Afua acknowledges the influence of Stein’s cubist writing but admits, “I find it difficult to impossible to read…her writing doesn’t make that much sense to me.” (01:11–02:37)
• Peter respects the ambition but questions, “how self-indulgent is it?” and is struck by “the fact that Stein has such a high opinion of herself.” (02:09)
• Both hosts dissect Stein’s approach: prioritizing auditory and visual wordplay over conventional narrative, likened by Afua to “a chant or a hypnotic kind of sound bath.” (03:05)
• The conversation touches on possible gendered bias against Stein’s experimentalism (04:02), with Peter wondering if her work would have been received differently “if it was by a Frenchman in a poloneck.”

2. Commercial Success: ‘The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas’

• When Stein writes in a more accessible mode, she achieves mainstream success, but only by “prostituting herself” (per Mabel Weeks), abandoning her experimental roots (05:03).
• The “autobiography” is actually Stein writing as Alice, about herself—Afua calls it “the ultimate hijacking of somebody’s personal narrative to further glorify and praise yourself.” (06:50)
• Stein’s self-regard is highlighted: “I’ve only met a genius three times… Gertrude Stein, Pablo Picasso, and Alfred Whitehead.” (06:30)
• Stein’s global book tour underscores the power dynamic with Toklas—Toklas plays the supporting, nearly invisible, role (06:50–07:59).

3. The Paris Salon: Community, Competition, and Gatekeeping

• Stein’s Saturday evening salon at Rue de Fleurus becomes legendary, attracting “the lost generation” (a term Stein coins), including Hemingway, Fitzgerald, and Picasso (08:49).
• Peter is fascinated by the “romanticism” and chaos of the salon, while Afua points out its contradictions: while the idea is openness, “the reality is that Gertrude Stein… wanted disciples.” (15:32)
• Alice B. Toklas serves as a strict enforcer, controlling access and ejecting anyone showing disloyalty or overshadowing Stein: “If Alice doesn’t like you, you’re out.” (18:52)
• Afua notes, “She would take in a young writer and really support and mentor them, but when they started to obscure her light, they were out.” (16:45)
• The salon is male-dominated; Alice and Gertrude are “outliers” who “actually kind of support the patriarchal nature of this whole scene” (19:52–20:51).

4. Rivalries and Insecurities: The Shadow of James Joyce

• Stein is so threatened by Joyce’s critical acclaim after Ulysses that “you weren’t even allowed to mention his name in the room at her salon” (17:29–17:47).
• This adds to the paradox: the salon is rife with egos, unspoken rules, and sensitivity toward perceived slights (21:10).

5. The War Years: Collaboration or Survival?

• As WWII approaches, Stein and Toklas choose to remain in occupied France despite being Jewish and having safe passage to America offered (22:23–23:54).
• Stein’s justification for staying—*“fussy about my food”—*is met with disbelief by both hosts (23:54).
• Their survival is secured through the intervention of Bernard Faÿ, a collaborator with the Vichy regime and head of the National Library, who advocates for their protection. Stein, in turn, interacts with and even supports Pétain, leader of Vichy France, translating his speeches (25:13–27:21).
• The discussion underscores Stein’s political complexity—she is deeply anti-communist, leans conservative, and collaborates, in part, by choice due to not leaving when she could have (28:19).
• Afua sums up: “The whole thing is really problematic and a real stain on her legacy… She was the one who made choices with all the agency and resources at her disposal to be on this particular side.” (29:28–30:08)

6. After the War: Myth-making and Legacy Control

• After Stein’s death (1946), Alice B. Toklas devotes herself to curating Stein’s reputation, mirroring Jane Austen’s sister in controlling legacy through selective narrative and destroying some correspondence (32:16).
• Peter and Afua debate whether Stein is a feminist, given the exploitative dynamic with Alice and her complicity in male-dominated artistic culture (33:12–34:42).
• Toklas’s own difficult later years—eviction due to lack of legal marriage rights and loss of their apartment—reflects the limitations faced by same-sex couples at that time (36:28).

7. Stein’s Role as Enabler: Picasso’s Career

• Stein is credited as essential in launching Picasso’s career by providing financial, social, and emotional support—without her, “Cubism might have been delayed by years.” (39:14–40:26)

8. Literary Legacy: Radical or Unreadable?

• Peter finds Stein's work “radical” yet not “particularly enjoyable to read,” positing, “Had she been a man, had she been French, had she not had this complicated personal life… I think we would be taking her more seriously.” (41:17)
• Afua contends Stein’s writing is difficult but valuable for unpredictability, even calling her “the ultimate anti-AI machine” because her senselessness is impossible for AI to replicate (41:48–43:03).
• Peter tests this assertion, generating an “AI Gertrude Stein” quote which Afua decisively rejects: “It hasn’t got it. It has not got it.” (43:01–43:03)
• Afua argues for preserving nonsensical, human writing in an age of AI-predicted text (43:03–44:00).

Notable Quotes

• Afua Hirsch:

  • “Her writing has no conventional sentences, no story, no narrative, no obvious structure… more like explorations of the sounds that the words create… more like a chant or a hypnotic kind of sound bath.” (02:37–03:05)
  • “That’s the ultimate hijacking of somebody’s narrative to further glorify and praise yourself.” (06:50)
  • “Gertrude Stein looked like she wanted peers, but really what she wanted was disciples.” (15:32)
  • “She was collaborating with it… a real stain on her legacy.” (30:08)
  • “There are elements of genius to Gertrude’s side… she certainly has created a legacy, demonstrated by the fact that we’re sitting here today, 100 years later, talking about her.” (38:56)
  • “Stein was trying to break with convention and reprogram the brains. She’s like the ultimate anti-AI machine.” (41:48)

• Peter Frankopan:

  • “But she is absolutely sure…that she herself is absolutely in the pantheon of people who are changing the way in which people think and how people write.” (16:45)
  • “It’s almost incomprehensible.” (23:54, on Stein choosing to stay in Vichy France)
  • “She becomes a fan of Petain… starts to translate a book of Petain’s speeches into English… it almost defies belief.” (27:21)
  • “Had she been a man … we would be taking her more seriously…” (41:17)

Important Timestamps & Segments

• Stein’s Difficult Writing & Self-Regard:

  • 01:11–04:02

• Breakthrough with ‘Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas’:

  • 05:03–07:59

• Salon Power Dynamics & Alice B. Toklas as Enforcer:

  • 08:49–16:45

• Rivalries, Insecurities, Gender Roles:

  • 17:29–21:10

• Decision to Stay in France During Nazi Occupation:

  • 22:23–24:55

• Protection by Bernard Fay, Connections to Vichy:

  • 25:13–27:21

• Critical Appraisal of Her Post-War Reputation:

  • 32:16–33:29

• Stein’s Role in Picasso’s Ascent:

  • 39:14–40:26

• Experimentation, AI, and Unreadability:

  • 41:14–44:15

Memorable Moments

• Afua’s description of Stein’s prose as “a hypnotic kind of sound bath” (03:05).
• The hosts’ incredulity that Stein stayed in France for “fussy about my food” reasons (23:54).
• The analogy with AI: “Gertrude Stein did not make sense. Her writing is nonsense…She was dispensing with sense and trying to do something else. That’s kind of the reason why it’s AI proof.” (43:03)
• Peter’s failed AI Gertrude Stein experiment: “What is remembered repeats. And what repeats becomes real. And what becomes real insists on being remembered again.” Afua: “No. It hasn’t got it.” (43:01)
• Afua on legacy: “She certainly has created a legacy, demonstrated by the fact that we’re sitting here today, 100 years later, talking about her.” (38:56)
• Announcement of the next episode: Ernest Hemingway (44:32)

Flow and Tone

Afua and Peter maintain a witty, skeptical, but deeply curious tone—balancing sharp critique, historical analysis, and a sense of irreverent fun. Their dialogue is candid, often self-reflective, and unafraid to challenge each other and their subjects. The episode is structured to alternate between critique, admiration, and hard questioning of legacy, making it richly engaging and thought-provoking throughout.

Next Episode Tease

• The next episode will profile Ernest Hemingway, continuing with 1930s Paris and another fiercely polarizing legacy.