Legacy Podcast: Jane Austen | Feat. Marlon James

Episode 3: "It's Jane Austen's World And We're Living In It"
Date: December 16, 2025
Host(s): Afua Hirsch, Peter Frankopan
Guest: Marlon James

Episode Overview

This episode of Legacy marks the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birth, and is the final installment in the series' Austen trilogy. Host Afua Hirsch and historian Peter Frankopan are joined by acclaimed Jamaican novelist Marlon James for a rich, multifaceted conversation about Austen's enduring genius, the shadows of empire and slavery in her novels, and why her stories resonate across vastly different backgrounds—including James’s own. The trio explore the subtleties of Austen's social commentary, her innovation as a writer, and her deep humanity, while also reflecting on personal experiences of reading Austen and the wider legacy her work has left on world literature.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Austen’s World: The Invisible Forces

• Unseen Geopolitics and Colonialism:
  • Afua reflects on how, as a young reader, she saw Austen’s world as detached from the intense geopolitics of her time—wars, revolutions, and the height of colonialism and slavery. Reading Austen now, she recognizes that the realities of empire and enslavement are faintly, but purposefully, referenced.
    • “These references to bondage. I don't know whether she was deliberately referencing that world or whether just the overwhelming fact of it inevitably popped up...” (Afua, 00:56)
• Coded Language:
  • Austen's use of coded references—West India merchants, income from overseas—offers a spectral presence of empire within the seemingly insulated domestic dramas.

Marlon James on Austen: Genius & Realness

• Wisdom and Insight:
  • Marlon places Austen among the wisest of novelists, able to capture the complexity of the human condition with subtlety and restraint.
    • “Her insight into human condition, to me, is up there with Dostoevsky... she doesn’t need a Raskolnikov to talk about how crappy people are.” (Marlon James, 04:12)
• Complex Characters:
  • He is particularly drawn to Austen's "unsavory" characters, lauding their realism and anti-hero quality.
    • “Mrs. Bennet is the only person in that book who knows what time it is... if those four girls don’t get married, they're going to be out on the street.” (Marlon James, 06:47)
• Restraint and Humor:
  • Austen uses humor and a kind of narrative distance both as a writer and for her characters, allowing the reader to interpret and discover meaning ('showing, not telling').
  • Afua wonders: “How does she reconcile seeing everything so clearly as a woman, yet managing to suffuse her novels with so much wisdom and comedy?” (07:22)
  • Marlon responds:
    • "I think writers at some point have to get to the point where they can laugh at their circumstances in a way, or at least create a sort of distance." (07:58)

Austen’s Handling of Empire & Slavery

• Shadow Histories in the Novels:
  • The conversation touches repeatedly on Mansfield Park and Austen's nuanced, sometimes silent, engagements with slavery.
    • "There's this silence. And for me, that silence is a metaphor for what she's doing in all her novels..." (Afua, 16:28)
• Marlon’s Post-Colonial Perspective:
  • James discusses how postcolonial readers grapple both with being educated in the canon of empire and learning to see its hidden histories.
    • "I think a lot of the stuff we learned in our colonial education was to make us subjects and not to give us a sort of deeper wisdom... it backfired with somebody like Austen..." (Marlon James, 19:11)
  • He describes the irony that exposure to Austen via colonial education led him to question empire rather than simply accept it.

The Universal Resonance and Adaptations

• Beyond English Parochialism:
  • Austen’s themes—especially the politics of marriage and family—reverberate globally, from Africa and India to Caribbean readers like Marlon.
    • “Africans love Austen. It speaks very much to the kind of like, marriage and family politics in Africa, in India. There’s a Bollywood Austen vibe.” (Afua, 14:24)
• On Adaptations:
  • Marlon expresses particular fondness for Bollywood and playful reinterpretations like Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, while criticizing certain film versions for missing the core of Austen’s characters.
    • “The Pride and Prejudice TV series with Colin will always be the goat... I am no fan of the Keira Knightley Pride and Prejudice... when Darcy's approaching her in the moors... that's Heathcliff. That is not Darcy.” (22:09)
  • He and Afua agree that Clueless is the best adaptation of Emma.
    • "The best version of Emma is Clueless. I think Austen would have approved." (23:19)

Austen’s Technique and Literary Innovation

• Dialogue and Agency:
  • Marlon praises Austen’s mastery of dialogue and her shift toward letting characters drive the story—moving away from authorial didacticism common at the time.
    • "Her real skill is showing. I think that was a turning point in literature... let them ruin their lives, basically.” (Marlon James, 12:53)
• Empathy and Humaneness:
  • Austen’s ability to “love each character into existence” is seen as her enduring lesson for other writers.
    • “She reminds me to always be human, humane, rather, to my characters... to remember that, you know, another writer said once, you have to love each character into existence. And I think she does.” (Marlon James, 34:07)

Outsider Experience—A Postcolonial Reading

• The Outsider Perspective:
  • Marlon discusses reading Austen as someone from the Caribbean—a world he wouldn’t have belonged in, had he lived in hers.
    • "My whole experience growing up is reading worlds I was not part of and reading worlds I would not be led into." (Marlon, 27:05)
  • He reflects on the radical possibility that Austen, particularly in unfinished works like Sanditon, was moving toward greater inclusivity.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Austen’s Unsavory Characters:

  • “The unsavory characters in the novel know what time it is... Mrs. Bennet is the only person who seems to know this.” — Marlon James (06:47)

• On Mansfield Park and Slavery:

  • “I’m like, girl, Mansfield Park, that’s a slavery novel. You don’t even realize.” — Marlon James (15:33)
  • “For me, that silence is a metaphor for what she’s doing in all her novels, where she's showing that that world exists behind what you can see, but there's a silence around it.” — Afua Hirsch (16:28)

• On Reading Austen as a Black Man from Jamaica:

  • “People who misunderstand her haven’t read her... because we still want to know what to do with love. We still talk about marriages of the heart versus marriages of the pocketbook. We’re still doing it.” — Marlon James (14:58)

• On Austen’s Enduring Influence:

  • “When I read a writer presently, a writer like, say, Claire Masood, I see that Austen is alive.... We all just want happiness, yeah actually, it still holds true. We kind of want to love and be loved. We still do.” — Marlon James (33:27)

• On Austen’s Genius:

  • “We’re trying to find a regular explanation for a not regular person.... I think she was just—just straight up genius. There’s a part of it that can’t be explained.” — Marlon James (30:52)

Important Timestamps

• 00:56 — Afua on revisiting Austen, noticing coded references to slavery/empire.
• 04:12 — Marlon James on why Austen endures: wisdom, insight, "realness."
• 06:47 — Marlon on unsavory characters, Mrs. Bennet's pragmatism.
• 14:24 — Afua: Austen’s resonance across cultures; Marlon: how colonial readers receive her.
• 16:28 — Afua and Marlon discuss Mansfield Park’s “silence” as metaphor of unspoken empire.
• 20:11 — Marlon’s personal story: boys waiting for D.H. Lawrence, but finding themselves captivated by Austen.
• 22:09 — Adaptations: TV, Bollywood, Clueless, frustrations with some modern film versions.
• 27:05 — Marlon on the outsider perspective and the possibilities of inclusion in Austen’s unfinished works.
• 30:52 — Marlon on genius and the futility of trying to “explain” it.
• 34:07 — Marlon on the lasting lesson for writers: Austen’s humaneness and empathy.

Tone and Style

The conversation is lively, sharp, and personal, blending humor, reverence, and academic insight. Marlon’s witty, vivid takes and Afua’s self-aware, questioning curiosity complement Peter’s historian’s rigor. The episode both celebrates Austen’s greatness and challenges listeners to reckon with the silences and shadows beneath her prose, ensuring her world is understood both for its brilliance and its limitations.

For Further Listening

• References to previously discussed episodes on Austen’s biography (see Episode 1 & 2).
• Comparisons with the Brontës and Little Women’s adaptations.
• Mention of Jean Rhys’s Wide Sargasso Sea as a postcolonial response to canonical English literature.

In summary:
This episode offers a deeply original, often unexpected perspective on Jane Austen—presenting her as a shrewd chronicler of human folly, a subtle commentator on invisible histories, and a writer whose reach extends far beyond the boundaries of Regency England. Marlon James’s enthusiasm proves infectious, challenging both inherited readings of Austen and our understanding of literary “legacy.”