Podcast Summary: Legacy – "Jane Austen | Making The Small Things The Right Size" (Episode 1)

Hosts: Afua Hirsch & Peter Frankopan
Date: December 9, 2025

Overview

This episode of "Legacy" launches a special series on Jane Austen to coincide with the 250th anniversary of her birth. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan explore Austen’s life, the enduring themes of her work, and the societal forces that shaped her—and ask whether widespread perceptions of her as a novelist and historical figure hold up under scrutiny.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jane Austen's Enduring Legacy

• The hosts begin by referencing how quickly Austen was recognized as one of England's greatest writers after her death, despite only completing six novels and passing without knowing her future fame.
  "Jane Austen is often regarded as one of the greatest writers in English literature...that's not what people were saying 250 years ago, they were saying that quite soon after she had died." (Peter, 04:50)
• Quotes from Virginia Woolf, Harold Bloom, and Macaulay are discussed, highlighting Austen’s subtle realism and artistic perfection.

2. Personal Connections to Austen

• Peter admits to coming late to Austen, influenced by gendered expectations in school and the focus on "more masculine" literature like Dickens and Russian novelists.
  "I think gender was probably a part of a big problem...Austen was deemed to be writing about landed gentry and manners and dances." (Peter, 05:47)
• Afua shares her early affection for Austen’s novels, their family relevance, and her experience revisiting them as an adult.
  "Growing up, the family who lived opposite us had five daughters...my mum used to have such a field day making a lot of Mrs. Bennet type jokes." (Afua, 07:24)

3. Misconceptions: Austen as 'Trivial' or 'Boring'

• The hosts tackle the idea that Austen’s life was ‘boring’ and her novels ‘mundane’, associating this with a sense of gendered trivialization.
  "She does have a reputation for being a bit mundane, trivial, domestic, and I don't think that's fair." (Afua, 09:56)

4. Family Background and Class Realities

• Austen was the seventh of eight children in a large but not wealthy gentry family. The Austens lived with a sense of social precarity, largely without the security of great inherited wealth.
• Her father, George, took up the clergy and supplemented the family income by opening a small school for boys in their home—a key detail reflected in Austen’s fiction.
• The system of primogeniture meant sons (and even distant male relatives) inherited all property; women like Jane and Cassandra often faced financial uncertainty.
  "Your status is absolutely pegged on who you're going to marry and what their personal means and incomes are." (Peter, 13:28)

5. Dramatic Family Stories

• Sibling stories are highlighted for their Austenian color:
  • Eldest brother James: a clergyman and writer (with speculation that Jane contributed to family periodicals under pseudonyms).
  • Tragedy of brother George: likely with developmental disabilities, fostered to another family—common in that era but seen today as callous.
  • Brother Edward: adopted by wealthy relatives, echoing plotlines from Emma.
  • Aunt shoplifting scandal: Jane’s wealthy aunt was arrested and narrowly avoided the death penalty or transportation for shoplifting lace—a story straight from Austen’s world.
    "It's a bit like...when Winona Ryder was arrested for shoplifting..." (Afua, 25:10)
  • Cassandra’s heartbreak: Jane’s sister fell in love with a boarder, got engaged, and lost her fiancé to illness.

6. Struggles and Independence

• After their father's death, Jane, Cassandra, and their mother were left in financial insecurity, relying on charity from their brother Edward.
• Austen wrote most of her major works at Chawton Cottage (now a museum). The hosts reflect on the creative importance of her physical environment.

7. Early Writing and Publication

• Austen showed early talent through "Juvenilia"—notebooks filled with parodies and satire—which honed skills later evident in her mature work.
• Famous novels ("Sense and Sensibility," "Pride and Prejudice," "Mansfield Park," "Emma") were published within a few years, with only "a lady" listed as the author.
• Despite her continuing literary output, Austen never made significant money from her writing, and her family only escaped precarity thanks to Edward's support.

8. Class, Gender, and the Small Things

• Austen’s work focuses on the intricacies of her own social class—the gentry, not the aristocracy. The hosts emphasize the sharpness with which she critiques status, manners, and marriage as reflected in everyday life:
  • Famous scene from "Pride and Prejudice" with Lady Catherine de Bourgh interrogating the Bennet sisters’ lack of formal education and governesses:
    • "No governess? How is that possible? Five daughters brought up at home without a governess. I never heard of such a thing..." (Peter as Lady Catherine, 44:26)
  • Austen’s own experience—raised without formal education but immersed in books and lively family discourse—mirrors the Bennet sisters.

9. Legacy and Historical Silences

• The destruction of nearly all Austen’s letters by her sister and niece has rendered much of her inner world permanently opaque.
• Austen’s novels remain in continuous print since 1833; "Pride and Prejudice" alone has sold over 20 million copies, underscoring her lasting influence—even as she personally saw little of her current fame or fortune.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Austen’s subtle power:
  "She has the hardest art ever achieved: to make the small things seem the right size."
  — Peter quoting C.S. Lewis, 03:12

• On family drama:
  "You can see already that this is not like a boring family where nothing ever happens... that's just the sibling relationships."
  — Afua, 21:00

• On gendered reading habits:
  "I think there's still a kind of boys read Dickens and girls read Austen."
  — Afua, 09:56

• On literary legacy:
  "Austen’s novels have been in print since 1833, which is really quite something."
  — Peter, 40:36

• On Austen’s creative solitude:
  "Jane is sitting in this very quiet, rural, idyllic place, writing."
  — Afua, 30:03

• Lady Catherine scene (dramatic role play):
  "No governess? How is that possible? Five daughters brought up at home without a governess. I never heard of such a thing."
  — Peter as Lady Catherine, 44:26

Important Timestamps

• Main theme and “Which classic writer for Netflix” banter: 01:15–02:10
• Quotes about Austen’s greatness: 02:16–03:52
• Perceptions of Austen’s life and gendered literary biases: 05:16–10:25
• Exploring Austen’s family history and class: 11:33–17:34
• Dramatic family events (aunt’s trial, Cassandra’s romance): 22:05–26:49
• Personal reflections on Chawton & Austen’s writing environment: 29:34–31:21
• Austen’s early writings and publication details: 33:53–36:43
• Discussion of class and the ‘small things’: 37:49–39:05
• Pride and Prejudice (Lady Catherine scene): 42:06–47:02

Tone & Atmosphere

The discussion blends warmth, humor, and erudition. Both hosts candidly examine past misconceptions, draw links between Austen’s life and fiction, and bring historical context to life. Occasional role play (notably as Lady Catherine) gives a playful touch, while pointed historical analysis grounds the conversation.

Looking Ahead

• The episode ends with a promise that next time, the hosts will delve deeper into Jane's social class, her writing, and her romantic life.

For those new to Austen or returning to her, this rich, detailed episode sets up the series as both biography and cultural critique—dispelling myths, foregrounding context, and inviting listeners to re-imagine Austen as one of history’s most subtle, subversive, and enduring writers.