A (2:42)

Do you know, I'd like to do Virginia Woolf with you on Legacy and talk about her, but I sort of always found that quite a tricky line. You know, of all the great writers, she's the most difficult to catch in the act of greatness. Anything you catch in the act of anything was something we went to trouble for at school. But then Harold Bloom, author of the Western canon, wrote about 30 years ago, said the first, this woman, this writer is the first great realist in the English novel. And her influence remains unsurpassed. That's another clue.

B (3:12)

C.S. lewis, she has the hardest art ever achieved to make the small things seem the right size. And this probably the biggest compliment that anyone could pay Shakespeare has neither equal nor second. But among the writers who have approached nearest to the manner of the great master, we have no hesitation in placing drum roll. And this was From Thomas Babington McCauley, by the way, the famous historian and writer Jane Austin.

A (3:52)

Hello, and welcome to a new episode of Legacy. I'm Peter Frankipen.

B (3:56)

I'm Afua Hirsch.

A (3:58)

And this is Legacy, the show that explores the lives, events and ideas that have shaped our world and asks whether they have the reputations that they truly deserve.

B (4:14)

This is episode one, Austin Making the Small things the right size.

B (4:26)

Sixteenth, December 2025 is the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birth. And whether you're listening this at the time or after that date has happened, you can guarantee that there will be Jane Austen themed events happening all over the world, including on Legacy. We are recording a series about her life, her work, and, of course, this being us, her legacy.

A (4:50)

And as those quotes that we read out at the beginning to try to get to guess who we're talking about, show Jane Austen is often regarded as one of the greatest writers in English literature. And what's really interesting is that that's not what people are saying. 250 years ago, they were saying that really quite soon after she had died. And that's in spite of the fact that Austen actually only wrote or completed six novels and died without seeing her extraordinary success.

B (5:16)

And there are strong, consistent themes throughout all of her books. They are all preoccupied with manners and morals, gender and the politics of the family, marriage and class, set within the very specific context of the landed gentry in 18th and 19th century England. Peter, I'm super curious and I haven't asked you this before. Talk to me about your relationship with Austen. Did you read her at School. Did you read her growing up? Did you watch the TV adaptations, the movies? Tell me your story.

A (5:47)

I read a bit of Austen. I mean, I went for the Russian writers of the 19th century, partly because we were wall to wall with Napoleon, the Battle of Waterloo, which is so important as a subtext and a context for everything that Austin's writing. So I read Pride and Prejudice when I was a teenager, but I didn't really spent a huge amount of attention on Austen other than that. I think gender was probably a part of a big problem with that, that Austen was deemed to be writing about landed gentries and manners and dances. And so I just. I went to Austin quite, quite late in life. I'm slightly embarrassed by that formation, but.

B (6:22)

Then, no, but I'm really interested in that. Do you think as a teenage boy, was it perceived as something that was too girly or not relevant to. To someone like you? Was that the kind of the vibe when you were at school?

A (6:34)

Well, I'm slightly embarrassed to say it because, you know, I didn't listen to what my teacher told me lots of the time. And I applied my own far over looking at other parts of the world, so I've only got myself to blame. I don't think I had any problems about thinking about women as writers. In fact, I did. My PhD was on the first historian ever to write a narrative history in a European language. But I think that it was. I didn't quite understand what Austin was about. I didn't understand what the. The issue was about falling in love, getting married, and all the kinds of things that Austen often talks about and about set scenes in local villages. It felt all quite parochial. But so definitely it helped that I grew up as these amazing adaptations were made of the great Austen novels. And it made me think I really missed something, actually, that I hadn't turned to them early enough in my life. So I've devoured them ever since. How about you? What was your relationship with Austin like?

B (7:24)

Yeah, that's so interesting. I read Pride and Prejudice at school and I think Mansfield park, and I was a big reader of novels and I liked the period, so I read most of her novels. I've actually just reread all of them and there are some that I had never read. I'd never read Persuasion, and I'd never read North Hangar Abbey, interestingly, even though it's one of her major and kind of most well known novels, I loved Pride and Prejudice when I read it. And actually growing up, the family who lived opposite us had five daughters and they were quite kind of traditional and old fashioned and my mum used to just have such a field day with the fact that they had five daughters and clearly wanted to marry them all off as well as possible and kind of used to make a lot of Mrs. Bennet type jokes. So that definitely captured my imagination. But I've had quite a different experience rereading Austen now for this. So I'll get to that as we kind of go through her life and have the conversation and talk about her legacy. But I think it's really interesting that it was perceived for you as a kind of novel that a young boy would want to read, because that the two things you said, that it's not something that appeals to boys and that it's kind of a little bit parochial. Those are in a way, two of the big problems that still surround perceptions of her. And I think it's going to be really interesting to talk about whether that's justified in what it says about us and what it says about her.

A (8:48)

Well, on the one hand I'm, I think, slightly embarrassed to admit that, but at the same time, you know, I also grew up being encouraged to listen to classical music, so I didn't really spend a lot of time listening to 1980s music until I was a late teenager. And sometimes when you discover things later and after everybody else, they can also be better. Right. So I don't know whether anybody discouraged me. I don't think they did. But I could have read whatever I wanted. So I don't know what it was that didn't push me towards Austin because she's also really easy to read. You know, probably being a wonderful writer. It's a joy, you know, they're not. It's not, it's not difficult, it's not complicated and it's sort of exquisite. So. But, but. So I'm on the one hand slightly embarrassed, but I'm not quite sure why it was that I didn't head towards it. And I thought latent sexism is probably part of it. But I also think it's okay to not admit that you read everything growing up and the gaps. One of the joys of life is then identifying this and filling them up as you get older. But I think the bit that I'm embarrassed about is just how what a great writer she was and what a great writer she was perceived to be. But we definitely had Dickens pushed in our direction rather than Jane Austen. And, you know, it was a bit of a shame because if given a choice, I know which one I'd Take on holiday with me.

B (9:56)

I think that still happens. I think there's still a kind of boys read Dickens and girls read Austen. Anyway, we'll get into the gender politics of it all, but I think it's really fair to say that she does have a reputation for being a bit mundane, trivial, domestic, and I don't think that's fair. We'll get to that as well. But there's a perception that her as an author, that she is also somebody who had quite a boring life.

A (10:20)

Do you think that the fact that Austen had a boring or a slightly unremarkable life has shaped people's opinions of her?

B (10:25)

I've got two things to say about that. One, I think the perception that she had a boring and unremarkable life has been a factor, but I don't think it's really that fair, as we'll see when we talk about her life. And secondly, there was this giant act of posthumous vandalism that happened after she died. All her letters, almost all her Letters, only about 160 were left, were destroyed by her relatives, her sister mainly, and then later by her niece. And so I think the opportunity to actually know more of the interior world of Jane Austen, what the turbulence and scandal and intrigue and motives even for her writing might have been, we've lost a lot of the opportunity to understand that about her. So I think that's been unhelpful and it's allowed this narrative of that there was not really anything to see there has taken hold. But, Peter, let's talk about her life and separate some of the fact from fiction. So she was born in 1775, hence the 250th anniversary of her birth this year in 2025. And as was quite common at the time, it was a large family of eight children and she was the seventh. And her parents were the Reverend George and Cassandra Austin.

A (11:33)

Her father. George came from the poor branch of an old and wealthy family of wool merchants, and he and his two sisters had been orphaned as children and had to be taken in by relatives when George was a teenager. When he was 16, he went to St John's College, Oxford. Perfectly acceptable. And there he met Cassandra Lee. And Cassandra's elder brother inherited a large estate and a fortune. But she only got a small slice of inheritance on her mother's side. So she grew up in a family that was slightly dislocated with a super wealthy brother, where she didn't really get any of the fruits and the benefits. And I think all of this world that Jane Austen is born into, of clergy and of wealth and of status and of standing, are things that she's obviously incredibly interested in trying to understand and write about.

B (12:22)

And it's a very recurrent theme in her novels and her characters, these figures who, like Jane, are born into a class which is essentially the landed gentry, but in families belonging to that class that don't actually have the affluence or the land ownership that their wealthier relatives enjoyed. So George, like his father in law, not having inherited himself, has to work and he takes up the clergy, which is one of the respectable professions available to the less affluent younger sons of these primogeniture based families. And then, as is so often the case, you're also reliant on the patronage of wealthier members of your family. So a wealthy relative, in George Austen's case, helped him secure a living. And these were basically stable incomes that came with having a certain parsonage. So he was the rector of the Anglican parishes of Steventon and Dean in Hampshire, and, and that guaranteed a certain income every year. But as the family grew, it wasn't actually enough to cover their expenses, so he had to supplement his income through other means as well.

A (13:28)

So you just mentioned primogenitis at afw. And it's one of those things that makes England look slightly different to other parts of Europe, where everything gets inherited by a single child and by a son. Sometimes by, you know, if you're a family of daughters only, it goes to a member of the family who could be a cousin or even sometimes a distant cousin. And it's very much a sort of casino world of all or nothing, you know, feast or famine, where you either get everything if you're lucky and you're a man, or you're connected into a family where your status is reasonably high, but your means are both modest, but also you're dependent on handouts. And those whims can shift and blow like the wind about whether the person who controls the purse strings decides that they like you, whether they want to supplement you, or they want to invite you to balls and parties and who you get introduced to. But basically your status is absolutely pegged on who you're going to marry and what their personal means and incomes are. And I think those things are really difficult because it means that you're not thinking about who you might marry just for love, or even for love at all. It's about, you know, will you get a roof over your head? What will that roof look like?

B (14:33)

And on top of that, you've got all of this politics of people wanting to or needing to. It kind of being a matter of survival, that they ingratiate themselves with wealthy members of the family, that they maintain respectability, ability, that they move in the right circles. So you can already see the incredibly fertile ground in which Austen is writing and creating her characters, because they're all navigating these kind of issues. You know, you might have an older sibling who's inherited the entire family fortune, and depending on how kind they are, how much they like you, how much of a moral compass they have, they could support you, or they could completely cut you out. If you marry someone they disapprove of, you could be out on your own. In the case of Jane's father, George, he had a combined income of about 200 pounds a year, which is in today's money equivalent to about £35,000 a year. So that, by the kind of standards of somebody who is a member of the upper middle class, is not a huge income, it's quite modest. And he was always trying to find ways of making sure there was enough to run the home and support his eight children. So one of the things he did was by running a small school in the family home, so he took in boarders, boys who were living at his house while he taught them. And Jane and her sister Cassandra, as well as the brothers, were growing up with some of these boys from other families who were staying in their home, receiving tuition. And they also had a farm which they rented, so they didn't own land, but they rented it, and that would also give them income. And as they grew older, their father, George, was able to rent out a bigger farm because of the relationship he had with his benefactor. And that allowed them to increase their income. So they weren't by any means on the poverty line, but it was quite a precarious financial situation.

A (16:14)

Well, also, if you've got lots of kids, I mean, in those. Those days, you know, it's not just what your income is, it's. It's what your outgoings and expenditure are. And, you know, every time a wife or like George's wife falls pregnant, you're hoping that there might be a son. Not because you're going to pass anything on, but down your line, but also because, you know, in a time of enhanced mortality, where people die young, where there are diseases, don't get treated pre penicillin, you know, you might. You might get lucky. And in order to get lucky, unfortunately, the most important thing is you've got to be a boy so the more children you have, the more expenses you have going through the system. But it's also, how do you maintain the air of, of being a favored cousin that knows what, what good manners look like and knows how to behave in the right kind of circumstances? And Austin, I think, is so acutely aware of the needs of keeping up appearances and acting as though you're to the mana born in the hope that that might actually come in your direction one day. And for a young woman, those options and opportunities are very, very different than they are for a man. When Austen's parents finally moved to the parsonage at Steventon at the end of the 1760s and fact 1768, that's where the center of the Austen family gravity is going to be, where Austen starts to grow up, to see the world around her and to try and make sense of it.

B (17:34)

Like all families, the siblings and their relationships with each other were a defining feature of Jane Austen's life. And I think, Peter, it's worth a little bit of time just talking about who her siblings were because it's so instructive. So eight children, all boys, except for Jane and her sister Cassandra, who is two years older than her. And Jane and Cassandra are incredibly close. They share a room, they sleep in the same beds as they grow up, they write to each other when they're apart, they nurse each other when they're sick. And it's through Jane's relationship with Cassandra that we know probably the most about her life. And it's thanks to Cassandra having later destroyed hundreds of those letters that we have these big gaps.

A (18:14)

But those gaps aren't always a problem. I mean, you know, God forbid, Afro, when someone writes your my biography, if they complain that our WhatsApp messages have been destroyed. And though, you know, they have days upon days of trying to work out how we coordinate to record podcasts, I've.

B (18:28)

Got those 90 day disappearing messages set on mine. So my future biographers are completely screwed, sorry to say.

A (18:37)

The podcast of the future covering AFWA Hirsch. So unfortunately, we got so little information because it was. Somebody turned those on by mistake. But I think that those gaps are important because it stops us being able to know what Jane is not just doing, but what she's thinking. But you mentioned Jane's and Cassandra's eldest brother, James. He's a decade older than Jane and he follows their father to Oxford. He also becomes a clergyman and he's also a writer and an editor. And along with one of Jane's other brothers, Henry, they create and edit and Write the contents for a periodical in Oxford called the. And there's even some speculation that Jane might have written a piece for the Loiterer under the pseudonym Sophia Sentiment, which is a great pen name.

B (19:22)

So it is quite a literary family, as we'll see. But there's a sad story about the second eldest son, George, who, from a young age, once they'd moved to the parsonage at Steventon, started to show signs of having developmental disabilities. It's hard to know exactly what his condition was, because obviously they didn't have the language or really the transparency then that we do now. But he had seizures. He may have been deaf and mute. And the family did something which is probably going to sound very callous to us, but was quite common at the time. They fostered him out to another family to care for him. So it was quite frequent that a family like this just wouldn't have a disabled child living in the home, integrated into family life. They were kind of sent away out of sight and, you know, supported and paid for, you know, really growing up at a distance. So Jane did not grow up with this brother, George.

A (20:13)

You think that's odd? Then something else happened at the end of the 18th century we mentioned about the casino of life. The third brother, Edward, is basically taken a shine to by some distant cousins on the father's side who decide that they want to adopt him, and they say that they'd like to raise him as their own. So the Austens basically pack off Edward to go and live with a another branch of the family, bit like Frank Churchill in Emma. And he gets to grow up rich and disconnected from the Austen family.

B (20:45)

And it's one of those arrangements that Austen does write about, as you said, Peter and Emma. There's a character, Frank, who has a similar experience that you're taken in by this wealthy couple, and then if they like you, they might end up really formally adopting you. And in this case, Edward takes their last name and when they die, they leave their inheritance to him. So he ends up becoming the wealthiest of the Austens, and that actually puts him in a position to help Jane and Cassandra and their mother, because after their father dies, they will be in a very precarious position. So even though it seems kind of callous for a sibling to go away and be raised by another family, that also creates the lifeline, because he then gets access to wealth and opportunity that the other siblings necessarily have. So you can see already that this is not like a boring family when nothing ever happens. There are actually quite a lot of quite potentially traumatic, big emotional and substantive events happening in the family. And that's just the sibling relationships. But there are other things that make this anything but a normal family. Peter.

A (21:47)

Come on, Alfred, tell us about that. We led this off with Netflix and the box set and how Jaydos is a great writer, but, you know, she had a lot of material to work with because the stuff that she sees and hears at the dinner table about her colorful family, you know, it's a fantastic cast list of characters. You tell us about some of these people.

B (22:05)

Well, I love the aunt who was arrested and put on trial for shoplifting. Such an amazing story. So this aunt is another relative who's wealthy and childless, and her name's Mrs. Lee Perrott, and she is actually the one who hosts Jane at Bath, a lot like Catherine Morland's character in Northanger Abbey. You know, Bath was an incredibly fashionable spa town where young people could go and meet potential suitors and see and be seen. So Jane goes to stay with this aunt. And this aunt, in 1799, she's a wealthy woman. She goes to a linen drapers to buy a length of black lace. When she's leaving the shop, the owner of the shop accosts her and says he'd like to see what's in her shopping bag. Now, this is a bit like, you know, if you're in a store and you walk out and the alarm goes off and the security guard says, I want to see what's in your bag, and then looks in your bag and there's something in there that still has the tag on that you haven't paid for. That sounds a lot like shoplifting. In this case, when the shop owner inspected the aunt's shopping, it turned out she had a card of white lace that she hadn't paid for worth 20 shillings, which was quite a lot. And Mrs. Le Perro said it was a mistake by the clerk who'd accidentally wrapped the white lace in along with the black. Anyway, she gets arrested and put on trial for shoplifting. And just for context, to be found guilty of theft of items amounting to that value in 1799 carried the death penalty. And the alternative, if you were lucky, was being transported to Australia for 14 years. So this is a pretty serious crime. And you can imagine this is a gentle woman of quite a high social rank, basically being remanded in custody. She's got high enough status that she's not actually put in the public jail. She instead lives with the jailer in his family, which is such a Strange arrangement, but even there, it's pretty rough. The conditions are described as vulgarity, dirt, noise from morning till night. Cleanliness has ever been his greatest delight. And yet he sees the greasy toast laid by the dirty children on his knees and feels the small beer trickle down his sleeves on its way across the table unmoved. That's how the jailer's house is described. So there's some definite drama happening in this family.

A (24:28)

You definitely want to check when you go to Primark or wherever you buy your clothes that you don't have a tag by mistake. I mean, the idea of being deported to Australia or the death penalty, you know, people do sometimes make mistakes, but, I mean, this trial is a big deal and it begets a lot of notoriety and visibility. And of course, the Austin family are worried about their association, but they're very considerate and careful about looking after their aunt. So Jane's mother even offers for Jane and Cassandra to come and keep her company while she's living with the jailer. But, you know, it's a scandal, which is not helpful when you're trying to be socially conscious and trying to position yourself as a, you know, suitable marriage material for the. For, you know, for somebody who might be able to sweep you off your feet.

B (25:10)

It's a bit like, do you remember when Winona Ryder was arrested for shoplifting? I mean, somebody who forgot about that, you know, is kind of rich and successful and celebrated. You just don't expect them to be on trial for having, like, surreptitiously shoved some white lace into their shopping.

A (25:25)

So you think. You think the Aus did the parallels, Richard and Judy, not, Not. Not putting their wine past the tin of the supermarket and saying it was an honest mistake. I like that. We could do a series on celebrities are wrongfully accused. We should probably say for legal reasons, but. Yeah, but the idea being caught in the act at this sort of harsh time is obviously incredibly embarrassing.

B (25:47)

The other.

B (25:50)

That happens that's kind of scandalous is that Jane's sister Cassandra, remember I said that the father takes in boys from other families to live with them and go to school essentially in their house. Their house becomes a mini boarding school. Well, Cassandra actually falls in love with one of the young boys growing up in their house. Now, this is a pretty precarious situation because there are such strict rules about how girls are exposed to boys. Contact between the sexes is so carefully managed. You know, all of this rigmarole of coming out and being introduced at dances and playing an instrument being the only time that a Young man is really allowed to look at a young woman. And here's Cassandra basically falling in love with someone in her home, and they become engaged to marry. His name's Tom Fowl. He grows up to become a chaplain who travels to the West Indies, but when he's there, he dies of illness. So it seems like that was a pretty heartbreaking experience for Cassandra, and she never becomes engaged or marries again after.

A (26:49)

Do you think there's some inspiration for young Fanny in Mansfield Park? Do you think these episodes, you can pick them out of what Austin is writing about? Because she uses what she knows I do.

B (27:00)

I mean, I'm sure you know this, Peter. As a writer, nothing goes to waste. And you're constantly mining your own real life experiences for inspiration. And I can't imagine Austen is any different. There's this scene in Mansfield park where Fanny, who's this impoverished niece, goes to live with her richer cousins. And at one point, there are questions about whether it's appropriate because, you know, there are two male cousins in this house. And one of the family is worried that if this girl is brought to live with these cousins who she's never met, they're strangers to her, they might fall in love. There could be this kind of illicit sexual attraction. And the aunt who's set this arrangement up reassures everyone that will never happen because they'll be growing up like siblings, you know, so there's no chance of any kind of romantic interest. And of course, in Mansfield Park, Fanny does grow up to end up marrying exactly one of those male cousins that there were concerns about. So that world in which those very strict gender rules and boundaries and conditions about attraction and encounter are violated in subtle ways, that's exactly what seems to have happened with Cassandra. And remember, Cassandra is very, very close to Jane. She's probably her closest person in the world. And, you know, there's no way Cassandra wouldn't have gone through that whole experience of falling in love and then the heartbreak of losing her fiance without Jane being intimately involved in that whole experience.

A (28:21)

And then in 1885, Jane's father dies, and that's a catastrophic event, not just because of the loss of a father, but because it's a loss of income. And that puts the Austen family in a very precarious financial situation. This is really important part of the story, I think, with Austin, is when do you meet the right person? What happens to them? Do they die? What about the timing of when her father dies and that structure of gender and of the role that men play in being Protectors, providers, and also provider of status means that Austen and her sister and her mother are in a situation which you can recognize from Pride and prejudice, where Mrs. Bennet is extremely concerned about what is going to happen to a young woman if she's not. I can't get married off. That starts to change. The Austin family situation changes, so they move to Bath, which Jane hates. And then in 1809, a few years later, they move back to Hampshire to a cottage which is part of the estate that's owned by her wealthy brother, Edward Austen, now Edward Knight. And this is where Jane starts to write. And this is the desk, which is still there in the, in the cottage. You can see where Austen wrote her great, her great novels.

B (29:30)

Have you ever been to the Austen Museum at Chawton Theatre?

A (29:34)

Yeah, long time ago. But in fact, I was talking to a friend of mine about it just a couple of weeks ago about going to do a sort of mini pilgrimage down there, and I think it was the evocative. In fact, my friend was talking about the desk and about wanting to know where I'd written my great masterpieces. And it never crossed my mind that where somebody writes is really important, but, you know, it really is where you, when you can connect to material, objects of history and you can see where people were sitting, what they were thinking when they looked out the window, what they could see, that's important. Have you been there?

B (30:03)

I haven't been, actually. I'd be curious to go, although I feel like it might make me self conscious about my life as a writer, because I feel like Chawton is exactly what a writer needs to be able to create masterpieces. This is how the niece Anna describes it, a very quiet life. According to our ideas. They're great readers, and besides the housekeeping, our aunts occupied themselves in working with the poor and teaching some girl or boy to read or write. But basically, Jane is sitting in this very quiet, rural, idyllic place, writing. And so, yes, by contrast, my life isn't like that at all. I write on trains and planes and sometimes even on the tube in between the chaotic goings on in my life. And I do sometimes I love studying the lives of writers and how they write, but often you find a lot of silence and solitude, and I think that's it's often really important to be able to do the kind of deep work of creating. So, yeah, I'm self conscious about the absence of it in my own life.

A (31:01)

Peter so this episode is being broadcast in December 2025, the 250th anniversary of Austin's birth. So just in the build up to Christmas, if anybody's listening and has a Chawton or a cottage that Aphra could write her next book, Next books in with a nice desk and really good WI fi, please get in touch with the show. Let us know.

B (31:21)

Thanks Peter. I love how you did that. That was beautiful. That was a beautiful Christmas gift. So Chawton is where the majority of Jane's writing takes place. And even though I think we've made a very strong case that her life is not boring, it's still the fact that the writing that she does is the main event. It's obviously the reason we're here talking about her. And when we come back, we're going to get into the writing, how it happened, when and why. Why.

B (31:57)

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A (32:39)

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A (33:20)

So the brother that Jane is closest to is probably Henry. Henry is a banker and he's either an extremely bad one or just extremely unlucky. So his bank, Austen, Maund and Tilson, goes bankrupt in 1816. That's the year before Jane Austen dies. But when the bank went under, so too did thousands of pounds of investment from other family members. And after the bank failed, Henry turned to another tried and tested profession in the Austin family, which is he joins the church and becomes a clergyman.

B (33:53)

But through all that, Henry's been very supportive of Jane's writing career. He helps her deal with publishers, which is pretty perilous for a woman at the time. And he also supports even her earliest work, when she's potentially writing for this publication that they have in Oxford. He's a big support and asset in Jane's life. So let's talk about the early writing that Jane does, Peter, because of course, we think about the novels, but like many novelists I know, the first works happen when still a teenager or even younger. And in Jane's case, she writes what's called the Juvenalia, three notebooks of teenage writings that she completed between 1787 and 1793.

A (34:41)

So today this sort of body of work is described or characterized by its raw energy and its explosive snark, employing parody and burlesque and satire. And notable pieces include Love and Friendship. Very famously it's spelt wrong Friendship with the E before I rather than the I before E except after sea. And then the History of England, which is a mock history written by Jane with her sister Cassandra. And these texts together are seen as early evidence of a lively literary spirit, but also quite a good grasp of fictional conventions. The way in which she's thinking about literary forms and, you know, writing satires and parodies and trying to capture conversation, it shows you learn how to do that. And it's a very good test ground for Austen to. To be refining her skill. And you can see that as a writer who's going through the process of learning how to communicate.

B (35:34)

Well, so many novelists I study do that. They mess about, they experiment, they practice their form in these kind of low stakes almost notes when they're growing up. And so by the time you come to read their finished work, you don't necessarily appreciate that it's the product of years of that experimenting and finding their voice. Now, that's exactly Jane's story. The four novels that she published in her lifetime are Sense and Sensibility, which published in 1811, Pride and Prejudice, 1813, Mansfield Park, 1814, and Emma, 1816. So, as you can see, these were published in incredibly quick succession. She had been working on them for years, but it was only once she started publishing that she was able to get them all out. And she wasn't identified as the author, which was actually very common at the time, PETER. She was only identified as a lady. So they were published by a lady or with the later ones by the author of. So, for example, Emma was published, I think, as by the author of Pride and Prejudice, but there was nothing identifying her name. And actually it was only after she died that her name began to be attached to her novels.

A (36:43)

But, I mean, it's prolific. We talked about that with Dickens and I think we compared him to, you know, 1980s wham, you know, or Blondie. You know, the fact that Austen is being so. Has this incredibly purple patch of producing so many incredible works in quick succession is itself, I think, a kind of an amazing thing, you know, to be that fertile with your imagination and the execution, finding the discipline to sit down and write. And, you know, I don't think that Austen is thinking about her audience. I don't think she's thinking about who might be reading these things or about her own profile. She's writing, I think, also for pleasure. I mean, she also completes Northanger Abbey and Persuasion, but those aren't published until after she dies in 1818. But her plots, they critique, they interpret, they comment on English petty and ladder gentry. And they're really not about the Royal Court, they're not about high politics, they're not about what's going on in the British Empire, they're not writing about the Napoleonic Wars. But she's commenting on day to day life, so she's writing about what she knows. Is that important, Afra?

B (37:49)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we'll talk more about that. I think that the ghosts of those seismic world events that are happening during her lifetime are present in her novels, sometimes by silence as much as by overt statements or allusions. But she is, as you said, very focused on the domestic, on what's happening in England, and not just in England, just in a very specific class. And I think this is a big misunderstanding of Austen, helped by some of the mis portrayals in the, you know, the liberties that are taken in TV and film adaptations that make this seem like it's royal courts and, you know, incredibly wealthy stately homes. Actually, this is the gentry. It's not the aristocracy. On the. On the whole, almost, with only a few exceptions. It's not about people who have titles, hereditary titles, who are adjacent to the monarchy. It's about this landowning class who. Who have inherited wealth, who own land, but they're not titled, they're not from the absolute upper echelons of English society. And of course, the English class system, notoriously complex, and I think it often gets flattened. But it's important because Jane was writing about the class to which she belonged and in which her membership was quite precarious. And I think that generates so much of the creative and critical energy.

A (39:05)

She doesn't become rich in these books. I mean, there are a couple of other books we should mention the Watsons, which is abandoned after her father's death because it's too close to the bone. And also Sanditon, which she begins in 1817 during her final illness. But you know, she makes from Sense of sensibility about 140 pounds. That gives her a bit of independence. Pride and Prejudice sells quite well, but she doesn't, she doesn't coin it apha from that.

B (39:30)

No, she, the way that she arranges her publishing is a little bit like now as a writer, if you sell your IP and get paid a fee rather than owning it and continue to participate in, as we call it in books and tv, the back end. So she isn't getting a consistent profit from the sale of her work, she's only getting paid for writing it. And that makes a big difference to her ongoing earnings. So she could have been making about double what her father made if she'd have retained ownership of her copyright. But you know, this wasn't a world where a woman who's an author has a lot of experience in dealing with the publishing business, which in itself is, you know, in a very different state from today, or a huge amount of leverage. It's difficult to get published, even in spite of the clear merit of her works. So she doesn't make, I mean, I guess, I suppose you could call it life changing money because she was in a precarious financial situation. But the money she makes from her novels in her lifetime isn't even enough for the family to live on. They still rely on help from her older brother and from other relatives, but of course it helps.

A (40:36)

And Pride and Prejudice is estimated to have sold more than 20 million copies. So that would have made Austen fantastically wealthy. But that's. Such is life. I mean, Austen's novels have been in print since 1833, which is really quite something.

B (40:50)

Continuously in print. There's never been a time since 1833 when they've been out of print, which is remarkable. The dream Peter, do you think we'll be perhaps seeing Peter Frankopan's works continuously in print in 200 years from now? I hope so.

A (41:02)

I. I hope so too.

B (41:13)

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A (42:06)

Dear listeners, Afra and I have been playing rock, paper, scissors because we've been. We're going to read out a bit of Pride and Prejudice. And the good news or the bad news is that I've drawn the role of Lady Catherine de Burgh. So we're going to do a bit to talk about Jane's education. So I don't know whether I should do this in a falsetto voice. I'm going to do this as best as I possibly can.

B (42:27)

Just tap into your inner aristocrat. Because Lady Catherine de Boer is one of the very few characters who is part of the titled class. She's the daughter of an earl. So, Peter, you were born for this.

A (42:39)

This is my role. It's my moment. Okay, so this is when Elizabeth Bennet, the heroine, visits Roslings park, the stately home of Lady Catherine de Bourgh, who's an incredibly obnoxious and traditional matriarch. That's what I'm born for. Who's the daughter of an earl, as you mentioned. And it's extremely conscious of her superiority in the class hierarchy. So next time, by the way, I'm going to choose stone rather than paper. Right, Because I got that one wrong.

B (43:04)

Okay, so I'll read you in, Peter.

A (43:06)

Okay, try that.

B (43:11)

Lady Catherine de Bourgh asked Elizabeth Bennett at different times how many sisters she had, whether they were older or younger than herself, whether any of them were likely to be married, whether they were handsome, whether they had been educated, what carriage her father kept, and what had been her mother's maiden name. Elizabeth felt all the impertinence of her questions, but answered them very composedly. Lady Catherine then observed.

A (43:37)

Do you play and sing, Ms. Bennet?

B (43:40)

A little.

A (43:41)

Oh, then sometime or other we shall be happy to hear you. Our instrument is a capital one, probably superior to. You shall try it someday. Do your sisters play and sing?

B (43:53)

One of them does.

A (43:55)

Why did you not all learn? You ought all to have learned the Ms. Webb's all play and their father has not. So Good an income as yours. Do you draw?

B (44:04)

No, not at all.

A (44:06)

What, none of you?

B (44:08)

Not one.

A (44:09)

That is very strange. But I suppose you had no opportunity. Your mother should have taken you to town every spring for the benefit of masters.

B (44:18)

My mother would have had no objection, but my father hates London.

A (44:22)

Has your governess left you?

B (44:24)

We never had any governess.

A (44:26)

No governess? How is that possible? Five daughters brought up at home without a governess. I never heard of such a thing. Your mother must have been quite a slave to your education.

B (44:37)

Elizabeth could hardly help smiling as she assured her that that had not been the case.

A (44:43)

Then who taught you? Who attended you Without a governess? You must have been neglected.

B (44:48)

Compared with some families, I believe we were. But such of us as wished to learn, never wanted the means. We were always encouraged to read and had all the masters that were necessary. Necessary? Those who choose to be idle certainly might.

A (45:02)

No doubt. But that is what a governess will prevent. And if I had known your mother, I should advise her most strenuously to engage one. I always say that nothing is to be done in education without steady and regular instruction, and nobody but a governess can give it. It is wonderful how many families I have been in the means of supplying. In that way, I'm always glad to get a young person well placed out. Four nieces of Mrs. Jenkinson are most delightfully situated through my means, and it was but the other day that I recommended another young person who was merely accidentally mentioned to me. And the family are quite delighted with her. Mrs. Collins, did I tell you of Lady Metcalfe's calling yesterday to thank me? She finds Ms. Pope a treasure. Lady Catherine, she said, you have given me a treasure. Are any of your younger sisters out, Miss Bennet?

B (45:52)

Yes, ma', am.

A (45:53)

All.

B (45:55)

All?

A (45:56)

What, all five at once? Very odd. And you only the second. The younger ones out before the elder ones are married. Your younger sisters must be very young.

B (46:06)

Yes. My youngest is not 16. Perhaps she is full young to be much in company. But really, ma', am, I think it would be very hard upon younger sisters that they should not have their share of society and amusement, because the elder may not have the means or inclination to marry early. The last born has as good a right to the pleasures of youth as the first, and to be kept back on such a motive? I think it would be not very likely to promote sisterly affection or delicacy of mind.

A (46:33)

Upon my word, you give your opinion very decidedly for so young a person. Pray, what is your age?

B (46:40)

With three younger sisters grown up, your ladyship can hardly expect. Expect me to own it. Lady Catherine seemed quite astonished at not receiving a direct answer, and Elizabeth suspected herself to be the first creature who had ever dared to trifle with so much dignified impertinence.

A (47:02)

I could get into this after I. Maybe I missed my calling. What do you let George reckon I'm.

B (47:07)

Into something, I think a bit of.

A (47:08)

Kind of the terrifying, pompous matriarch. It's my role in life.

B (47:12)

I love this for you. I have to say, I think my casting talents, in foreseeing how well that would work.

A (47:19)

I'm going to get my own back on you, Afril Hirsch. I'm going to get you to read the parts of the great villains in history and with a booming, deep voice, to really stretch your artistic talents. But anyway, the point is, you can see there in Pride and Prejudice that Lady Catherine de Burgh is shocked and appalled to hear about the Bennetts. And it's Jane reflecting on how she feels judged by people who have no sense of reality, who assume that governesses can be provided, who want to show off about their own generosity and constantly putting people back in their place. And that's something that resonates through a lot of Austen's work.

B (47:50)

If you know about Jane's life, you cannot read Pride and Prejudice and not find parts of it autobiographical, because the Austen girls, just like the Bennetts, did not have a governess. They never received a formal education, apart from a short time when they attended a girls boarding school, although that may have been just as much to keep them away from the boys in the house, the boys from other families in the house, than it was to give them an education. But like the Bennet girls, they basically left to their own devices their father's library, which was described as unusually extensive and really to just kind of soak up the atmosphere in this quite cerebral and literary family, where there was a lot of reading, a lot of discussion of literature, private theatricals were an essential part of education within the family, which was helping to cultivate Jane's satirical skills. So it isn't the traditional, respectable, structured strictures of a governess that someone like Lady Catherine approves of. It's much more bohemian in a way, with these girls kind of growing up and inhaling this kind of literary and educated atmosphere.

A (48:56)

Well, we'll talk about that in the last episode, too. But, I mean, it sounds better than it is in reality, because bohemian also means your life prospects, your income, what your opportunities are going to be, are somewhere between bleak and absolutely abysmal. But the point is, I think it's that what Austin is reacting to is that people are always punching downwards and keeping people in their place and making you feel that you're never good enough. And there's something in that too, about how Austin sees herself, about the ability to be able to have a set of cards that she can play herself. You know, that's, it's a really tough world because the Austin family are, they're reasonably well connected, but they're, I suppose, what you call middle class. And that that means that there's not many options that that Austen has in her lifetime and her brothers managed to get out of it just about okay. But for Cassandra and Jane, it's a different story.

B (49:47)

But what we'll see as well as we, as we talk more in the next episode is that it's this childhood has implanted in Jane a deep commitment to the idea that it is better to be a critical thinker who has command of your own mind and your own intellectual curiosity and than to have the privilege of a formal education that is designed to serve respectability rather than to really feed your own mind. That is something that she does not hold back, exploring and commenting on through her subtle literary devices throughout all her books.

A (50:23)

And because this is all about the sort of the mirrors in society too, Jane can see it very obviously from above her social status, but she doesn't look downwards. So there are almost no lines in any of her books or no commentary about people who are a category or class below. You know, farmers of tradespeople of servants or anybody in the working class, you know. So next time on Legacy, we're going to talk about Jane's social class, but also about her writing and her love life. Thank you for listening to Legacy.

B (50:54)

Don't forget to hit subscribe on your favorite podcast player. You can also watch all our episodes on YouTube, so make sure you're subscribed there too.

A (51:03)

And of course, we're on all the socials and the links are in the show notes for this episode or just search Legacy Podcast. I'm Peter Frankopan. I'm AFWA Hirsch and we'll see you for the next episode of Legacy.

B (51:33)

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