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- [00:00]
Afra Hersch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of violence and might not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
- [00:16]
Peter Frankopan
Wondry hello and welcome to the final episode in our series on Joan of Arc. We left Joan facing a terrible fate. After a long and arduous trial, she has confessed in terror at the sight of what awaits her death by fire.
- [00:39]
Afra Hersch
That hurried confession saves her life, but only for a handful of days. Instead, she renounces her confession, returns to the claim that had seen her take France and the Hundred Years War by storm. She is, she insists, on a mission from God, and that has finally sealed her fate. There is no turning back now.
- [01:11]
Peter Frankopan
From Wandery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankopan. I'm Afra Hersch and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:35]
Afra Hersch
This is Joan of ARC, episode 4 the Birth of a Saint.
- [01:51]
Peter Frankopan
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- [03:18]
Afra Hersch
1431 the Cemetery by Abbe St. Juan de Rouen it will be a quick death and then I will be rewarded in heaven. Joan tries to turn the thought over and over in her mind. Even though men of the so called clergy now drag me from the castle to the cemetery, even though they forced me to wear a paper cap, calling me a relapsed heretic, an apostate, an idolater. Earlier that day a cleric had tried to force her to recant, to say she hadn't seen visions or angels or a golden crown. But she had resolved to tell the truth, no matter the cost. The wheels of the cart creak as they take Joan along the streets. She tries to focus on the sound, tuning out the jeers of people, the cheering about the fact that she will soon be dead. Then the creaking stops. Two men she does not know grab her arms, one on either side. They walk with her, almost unbearably, slowly to the scaffold. They help her climb up over the pyre. They help her stand with her back against the post. Brother Martin is close to her left side side. Joan wishes her mother and father could be here with her. Instead, she wonders whether they will know the exact moment she dies, whether they will feel it in their souls. Brother Martin starts reading from Corinthians, and whenever one member suffers, all the members suffer with it, he finishes. As he steps down, Couchon steps up. Joan feels loathing shoot through her. He is the true idolater, the true apostate, the true heretic, the true sinner. He reads out a list of her so called crimes, her sins nonetheless. Two men with English accents then bind her to the scaffold. Tying a rope tightly around her stomach. Joan struggles to breathe. Her eyes start to water and she looks up to the sky and starts praying. She doesn't see who lights the fire.
- [05:38]
Peter Frankopan
What happens next is about as grim as you can imagine. Rows of men of God watch a teenage girl being burnt alive. Joan is supposed to have cried out Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. As the flames rose. And she's also supposed to have cried out for a cross and a cleric held one up for her to see as she dies, and several clerics later claim that it was they who'd been the ones who did it. But I mean, horrendous and horrific, unfortunately, afu it's just a case of life in the Middle Ages where this is where the punishment meted up for heresy.
- [06:14]
Afra Hersch
But even in that context there's evidence that people aren't wholly comfortable with what's being done to Joan. And there are plenty who witness it who will later claim that there was great sorrow at her burning and that even the executioner regrets building the pyre so high because it meant it took longer for the flames to consume her. And all of that time, this emotion, this sympathy, this regret is building among people who are wondering, just dealing with this lingering suspicion that she might have been chosen by God. And if that's the case, how does it reflect on them that they are witnessing her being burned at the stake? But, you know, things always look different in hindsight, and it's only after the French have won the war that this sympathy towards Joan retrospectively emerges as a significant emotional force.
- [07:06]
Peter Frankopan
I mean, it's grotesque. You know, once she's dead and her clothes have been burnt off, the executioner sweeps back the flames so everybody can see that she's a woman, you know, yet again, afo, you know, we've talked about this so many times in the series. The control over her own body is something that she's denied repeatedly.
- [07:21]
Afra Hersch
Again and again, after she is burned, the English insist on making sure that there is nothing remaining of her body, no bones, no fragments, because their fear is that people could claim those as holy relics. So her ashes are reduced to further ashes, and those ashes are then chucked into the River Seine. And I think that in itself speaks volumes, Peter, about the power of this woman, that even having denounced her as a heretic, even having claimed to have conducted a trial that proves definitively that she's a fraud, the English still worry that people are going to turn her into a martyr and that the little scraps that remain from her physical remains could in themselves have this emotional power that rile people up against them.
- [08:07]
Peter Frankopan
And I think Joan is unusual. I mean, there are lots of different estimates about maybe 50,000 women burnt alive, as opposed witchcraft in the sort of late Middle Ages, early modern period. Joan is by far the most famous person who's burned at the stake, I think, in European history. You know, again, as we've said, there've been plenty of other people who've claimed to have messages, but there's something about Joan and what she's being told and the way that she's lived her life that makes her stand out above everybody else. And I wonder why you think that is, afwa. Is it the context of the war because of the struggles between France and England? Is it about the claim for royal supremacy, or is it something very special? Do you think, about Joan herself?
- [08:41]
Afra Hersch
I think so many women were burned for what they represented or what they believed or how they were perceived. And actually the last person to be burned was in 1789. And actually it's believed the last judicial burning in the whole of Europe was in 1813. It's incredible how long this practice lasted. But most people who were burned at the stake had not conducted military expeditions that were successful and victorious in restoring their king to his throne. It's so much harder to denounce that as a delusion or a false prophet prophecy. I mean, she really did the things she set out to do. There's never been anyone else who's done something like that in the 600 years since this happened. So with each passing year and each passing century that nothing like this is repeated, it makes her stand out even more. And I think it's no surprise that her fame and notoriety and respect, really the degree to which she's venerated has only increased with time. And that was a problem from the day she was burned, because the English had dispatched with the living Joan. But right away they now have to fight the legend of Joan.
- [09:50]
Peter Frankopan
And like you said, Alfred, they're aware of that absolute beginning. That's why they've now got to find a way of smearing her. So a letter was sent in the name of King Henry to the Holy Roman Emperor and to all of the kings, dukes and princes of Christian Europe, outlining how the case had been built to the last detail and how it approved the heresy of this woman whom the common people called the Maid. A similar letter is written in French and sent to all the cities and towns across the country. She was a heretic. She was a false prophet and she'd met the fate that a heretic deserved. And Cauchon gathers together all the records and the transcripts of the trials that provide a complete record of the case, which is gold dust for historians, but is designed to show that there's no doubt about this whatsoever.
- [10:37]
Afra Hersch
It's so tone deaf. The authorities really thought that this record of the case was going to shore up their credibility and damage hers. The opposite happened, especially over time. Really, it just gave more people access to the incredible consistency and self belief and apparent divinity of this girl at the fact that she was burned at the stake and had the opportunity to fully retract, but actually in the end decided that she preferred this painful mortal death to the death of her belief, the death of her integrity. It's such a powerful story and nothing could stop it spreading. There were stories that St. Catherine appears to Joan just before her death and Says, daughter of God, be secure in your faith, for you will be numbered among the virgins in the glory of paradise. And there's another story that her heart miraculously remained unconsumed by the flames and was preserved intact. You know, a posthumous miracle. It just doesn't stop people.
- [11:37]
Peter Frankopan
And at the same time as her personal bravery, you have the absolute silence of King Charles and the Armagnac court. They do nothing, from what we can tell, to free her. They do nothing to try to correct the bad reputation that the English are trying to smear, but they did nothing at all to help her. It's only until 1450, so quite a lot later, that Charles even talks about her in public. So I wonder whether that's because they didn't believe her themselves or whether it's just the cynicism of politics, of, you know, if you can take advantage of someone, you do, and when they become less useful, you just let them go.
- [12:11]
Afra Hersch
It's hard to imagine that even the most cynical political operator couldn't have had a nagging sense of a guilty conscience, of having taken all the advantages that this miraculous virgin had to offer. When they were desperate and on their knees, and she came and won much needed victories for them, only to let her burn at the hands of their enemies because it was convenient to do so, Even the most hardened heart must have felt a little pang of conscience. And these are people who believed in the supernatural. They believed in God, they believed in heaven and hell, they believed you would be judged after death. And I feel like that is a major black mark that would sit on your record as you perceive it, as a Christian in that era.
- [12:54]
Peter Frankopan
And, of course, that war keeps on going. So although there are people like Jean the Bastard and the Duke of Alencon who mourned Joan, the fighting keeps going. And in December 1431, Henry VI of England is crowned. Henry II of France. And no surprises to guests. That in the congregation is Bishop Conchon. But the influence of Joan on the battlefield is still there, and the men who had experienced the successes next to her at Orleans are still making gains. So Jean the Bastard and Alenon keep leading armies successfully against the English. And the Duke of Bedford, who we've come across many times, that arch, realist, competent, capable general, tells the King's council that the effect of the Armagnac victory at Orleans still remains pivotal.
- [13:38]
Afra Hersch
The Duke of Bedford is essentially saying, if it hadn't been for Joan, France would have been as good as ours. And that is an incredible legacy. So close to the time when she was fighting. He then dies. The Duke of Bedford has been such a big character in this story. In September 1435 and just five days after his death, the Treaty of Arras is signed between the Armagnacs and the Burgundians. Philip recognizes Charles as his sovereign king, just as Joan always said he should.
- [14:09]
Peter Frankopan
And so over the course of the next 20 years or so, that pendulum swings in favour of France. All of the things that Joan has promised become real and become true in due course. Paris gets taken in 1437. The war keeps on going. But in 1449, Rouen, where Joan had been killed, the seat of English power in Normandy is taken too. And that sort of reset of the Burgundians and the Armagnac creates what becomes the kingdom of France. I mean, the English have a foothold that they keep on for another hundred years or so. But that destiny that Joan promises that she can see is one that gets delivered. And I think that's one of the reasons why she becomes such a powerful figure later.
- [14:50]
Afra Hersch
Finally, in 1449, Rouen, the seat of English power in Normandy, is taken. Dressed in his shining armour, Charles the fighting done, of course, because Charles doesn't actually fight. Leads a procession into the city. He stops at the cathedral of Notre Dame de Rouen to give thanks to God. As he prays, does he give a thought to the teenage girl who died there so brutally 18 years earlier? At last, in 1453, the English are driven out of Gascony. Apart from a toehold at Calais, the English are now gone from France, just as Joan had promised Charles all those years ago. Tough to believe. Domino's has never had stuffed crust pizza until now. Right? Well, let's hear. And it's delicious. It's stuffed with melty cheese, baked with melty cheese, and sprinkled with garlic, seasoning and real Parmesan. Yep, that's even more cheese. Order Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza for $10.99 each. When you mix and match two or more items, price is higher. For some locations, you must ask for this limited time offer. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary. Delivery orders subject to local stores. Delivery charge 2 item minimum. For additional terms and conditions, visit Domino's dot come.
- [16:20]
Peter Frankopan
Why are there ridges on Reese's peanut butter cups? Probably so they never slip from her hands. Could you imagine? I'd lose it. Luckily, Reese has thought about that. Wonder what else they think about. Probably chocolate and peanut butter. So Joan may be gone, but she is certainly not forgotten. As victory comes at last to the French. Nearly two decades after her execution in 1450, Charles finally breaks his public silence about her and he sets up an inquiry into her trial. Cauchon had died, as often happens with people like this, peacefully in his 70s, in 1442. But there are still survivors from among the clerics at the trial, and they all pin the blame on Cauchon, saying he was in the pockets of the English. English. Five years later, in 1455, the Pope grants a retrial, and it takes place in Notre Dame with Joan's mother, Isabelle, and her brother Pierre. There it takes eight months to reach a verdict, until July 7, 1456, where the judges declare Joan the maid innocent, an outcome just as predictable as that of the first trial, and they order a cross to be built in her honour in the market square of Rouen.
- [17:44]
Afra Hersch
But the church is not finished with Joan. She remains a popular figure in French culture. She's already become, at that time, part of the legend of France. And that's only intensified as the decades and centuries have gone by. In the 1840s, the manuscripts of the trial are published, causing a whole new wave of interest among a new generation that prompts the Bishop of Orleans to petition the Vatican in 1869 for her to be made a saint. It's a very slow process and it's not until 1909 that they finally succeed. Joan of Arc is beatified. And just as she is to be made a saint, war again ravages France and its people. A war, by the way, in which British troops are said to have seen visions of angels. By 1920, when the First World War is done, Europe is at peace, and French eyes turn again back to the Vatican.
- [18:42]
Peter Frankopan
16 May, 1920. St. Peter's Basilica, Rome Simone can't really see the Pope. She has traveled from Paris for this, taking unauthorized time off her university course. She has arrived early, but still finds herself pushed towards the back of the crowd. There are too many people of note in attendance. An American bishop, princesses from the Russian Empire, dressed in heavy rubies and long white robes. And a man in a black suit who Simone had heard speak with a distinctly non European accent as he brushed past her on his way to the front. But no matter. She has finally found a seat. Even though it's far away, she's proud to be here to celebrate Joan. She looks at the church's roof, held up by John. Giant, ornate columns. Clouds pass over the sun, but when its light shines through the windows in the dome, the gold on every wall of the basilica appears to glitter now she hears the sound of many footsteps on the tiled floor and turns her head towards the nave. First come the nuns with white habits, then other women with black veils on their heads before countless men in red and white robes. Women do not yet have the vote in France, nor do they have it in many parts of Europe. But women across the continent have long been fighting for change, and that's why Simone is here at the Basilica, to pay her respects to a woman who spoke truth to power, no matter the cost. Simone is transfixed as finally, Pope Pius, resplendent in his official robes, begins to speak regarding the Maid of Orleans that our predecessor elevated to the supreme honor of the saints. She bows her head, listening to his words as they paint a vivid picture of Joan's courage and of her faith that she held right until the end. Mounted on the stake, it is whispering in flames in a final scream, the names of Jesus and Mary. She flew to heaven. Simone wipes tears from her eyes as she listens. Joan of Arc, the maid, the fierce, brave girl who never reached Simon's own age, is now a patron saint of France.
- [21:06]
Afra Hersch
Do you think Joan would have appreciated being made a saint, Peter?
- [21:10]
Peter Frankopan
I'd have thought so. You know, if you are driven by such faith as she obviously was, I mean, no saint wants to think that they're worthy of being included, but I think as a model of how to live your life through great difficulty, you know, she's a real inspiration. Joan. I mean, just recording this series, talking through the kinds of difficulties that she faced and how she was on her own and still clung onto what she believed in. It wasn't broken. So not surprising that she's had such an important position, not just in France, but particularly for women in France. You know, people, as we've heard, being completely motivated, captivated by her story about not just truth to power, but for equalities and for having her voice listened to.
- [21:48]
Afra Hersch
I'm not a Catholic, and I think sometimes it's hard, if you haven't been raised in that tradition, to relate to the kind of bureaucracy, I guess you could describe it, you know, the kind of process of someone being officially beatified and recognized by the Church. But she definitely was a Catholic. She believed in that system. She believed in the authority of the Pope. One of her last requests before she was killed was to go before the Pope because she trusted his authority. And so I suppose in that sense, she would have valued being recognized by the institution that she felt represented her, that she felt such an allegiance to. And I find it a bit hard to accept because no institution did right by her. You know, the French monarchy that she so believed in basically betrayed her. The English saw her as an inconvenience to get rid of the Catholic Church didn't do anything to help her. And the representatives that she had access to were the ones who condemned her to death. So it's kind of hard to really see that those institutional measures of approval make a difference, but I think she actually would have valued them because she did accept the divine legitimacy of the Church.
- [22:58]
Peter Frankopan
I think you're exactly right, Afwan. One of the things that's so interesting that we've talked about a few times is that so much of her life, from the moment she first persuades the captain at Vaucouleurs to send her to see the king right until the end, it's all out of her own hands. And for the rest of her life and in the hundreds of years since her execution, she has been taken up by everyone from the Catholic Church to communist resistance to the far right. And I think you speak so eloquently about how she was let down by all these institutions that then chose to claim her when it suits them. That's a story that I think speaks to women's experiences in history, in society, in families, in states, and still today foreign hello, I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.
- [23:52]
Afra Hersch
And I'm David McCloskey, CIA analyst turned spy novelist.
- [23:55]
Peter Frankopan
Together we're the co hosts of the Rest Is Classified where we bring you the best stories from the world of secrets and sparks. We have just released a series on.
- [24:04]
Afra Hersch
The decades long battle between the CIA.
- [24:06]
Peter Frankopan
And Osama Bin Laden. And this this week we are stepping.
- [24:09]
Afra Hersch
Into the devastation of the 911 terror attacks to understand how Osama Bin Laden was able to carry out such a plot right under the nose of the CIA.
- [24:18]
Peter Frankopan
It was a moment that changed global politics forever, shifting the focus of spy agencies away from nation states towards hunting for terrorists and understanding the extremist ideology that drove them.
- [24:30]
Afra Hersch
We will then go into the decade long manhunts for Osama Bin Laden which culminated in a dramatic raid at his compound in Pakistan in 2011 which killed.
- [24:39]
Peter Frankopan
The world's most wanted terrorist. Listen to the Rest is Classified. Wherever you get your podcasts, you men of England who have no right in.
- [25:03]
Afra Hersch
This kingdom of France, the King of Heaven orders and commands you through me, Joan the Maid, to abandon your strongholds and go back to your own country. If not, I will make a war cry that will be remembered forever. Those are the words that Joan spoke On the eve of her first battle at Orleans in May 1429. I mean, this is a Hollywood scriptwriter's dream, Peter. This is a 17 year old girl, an illiterate peasant girl leading a king's army, an utterly improbable leader. And not only that, but she is giving these incredibly impassioned speeches, these battle cries. It's exactly what you need for an underdog leader in an action movie. And it's little wonder that the first reaction of the English is to laugh and jeer at her. And the fact that she was so underestimated only adds gravitas to what she really went on to achieve. And you know, that narrative as well, the underestimated hero that everyone dismisses and mocks ends up leading them into victory. It's just such a kind of satisfying story.
- [26:14]
Peter Frankopan
And best of all, the English are the best bad guys in any Hollywood film because, you know, the sneering comes quite naturally and being on the wrong side of the story. So I wonder whether one of the reasons why we know about her in England is because we associate her with the ways in which England lost all of its territories in France. I mean, I suppose it's thanks to Joan of Arc that the English kingdom retreated back across the Channel. I suppose in our counterfactual, I'd be really interested to think about what would have happened if Paris was still an English city. We talked about that. Fish and chips in the Rue de Rivoli instead of the finest French wines and Burgundy instead of any Armagnac. But what would have happened if England had been a European continental power with territories in what's now France? We don't sort of think about that. But the grand scheme of history is not that long ago, it's only just before Columbus's crossings of the Atlantic. And history might have been very, very different. But today, you know, she's still super famous in Orleans and she's on the city posters. There's a festival that goes over 10 days. Do you think that the capture of Orleans is a key moment in the story of Joan of Arc?
- [27:13]
Afra Hersch
It is a key moment because it's just so improbable. And I think it's that really legitimate question about what was going on with Joan of Arc that keeps people so interested. You can't dismiss her supernatural claims because what she did was just so unlikely. I mean, it was so against the odds that something was at work. And I think that's fascinating. I'll tell you the thing I struggle most with her legacy is Joan's kind of spiritual clarity and her selflessness and sense of purpose with what she was allying it to, which was essentially a pretty dodgy monarch in a country that ultimately didn't even do right by her. This kind of patriotism, which now in modern times is something that I think many of us are uncomfortable with because it has the tendency to promote kind of native nationalism and promote hate narratives to outsiders and xenophobia. She was unapologetically patriotic pro the French monarchy. And she believed that God was taking a side in a war, which it's pretty hard to ascribe a morality to. I mean, these. Both sides were just fighting each other, killing each other, raping, pillaging, murdering, wiping out innocent villagers as they went. They were kind of as bad as each other. And I don't have any problem accepting that if there is a God, he would choose a young girl from a peasant background. That's not the bit I have a problem with at all. The bit I have more of a problem with is if God wanted to intervene and choose a young woman to be his agent on earth, would it really be to install the Dauphin on the throne and be anointed at hands and retake Orleans? You know, like in the long story scheme of things, in the great arc of history, has that ended up being a kind of moral victory that's made humanity better off? That I struggle with a little bit.
- [29:03]
Peter Frankopan
I'm not gonna argue about that. I mean, the clue is in the word patriotism and the patri. It's all to do with the father. I think though, that the story for me, for Joan, is not about the king on the throne. It's her personal devotion and the courage and the way in which she articulates her faith and the way in which she inspires at her time by putting all those questions as being irrelevant. So her trial is not about her support for Charles and the Dauphin or the king. It's about her religious beliefs and those convictions of asking why she needs to repeatedly swear oaths or why she needs to reveal messages that she's been given from the divine. I think that personal bravery is why she's significant, important. So I understand about the challenge of what is she actually achieving from a political point of view. I mean, she's not a peacenik. She's not someone saying we need to have an end to hostilities. As lots of people who are saints are anti military figures. Joan is there with a sword, fighting, leading by example. But I think sometimes, particularly in the Christian tradition, that illusion of putting your life on the line for your faith is a really important one. And to do that in a military way as a woman magnifies the importance of the story. So I probably focus on that more about her role as a woman who has to dress up like a man, does dress up like a man, and delivers more than men.
- [30:21]
Afra Hersch
It's close to the era of Crusades, and I think, you know, there's a relationship you can have with Christianity that makes it hard to understand committing violence in its name. Because if you look at the life of Jesus, he was all about peace and loving and forgiveness, and so many wars have been waged in the names of religion that really, at their core, feel like they should be about peace. Speaking of that Christian tradition, you know, I was raised with Christianity, and there's so many parallels between the symbolism of Joan's life and Jesus. You know, especially at the end of her life being burned on this cross, you can almost hear her saying, my God, why have you forsaken me? As Jesus said on the cross when he was crucified. This idea that you are completely sure that you have been sent by God to fulfill a mission, and you've done everything you were told, you've done everything as instructed, and then at this moment of great peril, you. You're abandoned. And, you know, the message of Christianity is that actually, that's all part of the plan, and it actually gives hope, and it creates new life, and it leads to forgiveness for everyone, and it serves a greater good. And I think anyone who has experienced the Christian narrative can't help but be inspired as well by that part of Joan's story. She even had the opportunity to kind of betray her calling. And in the end, she refused to do that. She believed that there was a greater purpose to her life than her personal safety or her freedom from a violent end. And I think that really does kind of elevate her from being an incredible woman who achieved remarkable things in an era where that was so improbable, to being this real spiritual phenomenon of somebody who, whether you agree with her understanding of it or not, had such belief that she was willing to die in that way for it and die in such a way that people could continue to respect. Respect her integrity. And I do think that really stands out in history, and I think that's.
- [32:08]
Peter Frankopan
Why her cultural impact has been so profound. You know, from singers, artists, poets to have sung about her, painted her, written about her. You know, it's incredible. And not just French people, by the way. So, you know, you've got Verdi Or Chapel Rowan or Rubens, Gauguin, Voltaire, Michael Morpurgo. You know, I have to go to Paris tomorrow to give a lecture and you know, I'll always stroll along the Right Bank. But that's the statue of Joan of Arc by the Tuileries, which is, you know, by Parisian standards reasonably understated. But you know, she's there right in the heart of Paris and really speaks for something today. I mean, I wonder what you think Afwa about why she's been so plastic, so malleable, adopted by so many different kinds of causes, people and so on.
- [32:48]
Afra Hersch
I think that she's the perfect figure to evolve with history because we know enough about her life to really get an insight into who she was. There's something to really latch onto that allows people to relate to her to, to see themselves in her, especially young women, especially people who are non binary or flouting conventions about gender or class in their own ways. But she lived long enough ago and was still mysterious enough to offer a bit of a blank slate that causes that actually don't sit neatly with her life and identity can also align themselves with her. So I think she offers us in many ways a perfect figure that can be like us enough but mysterious enough as well. I'm really curious actually Peter, thinking about the rivalry between Britain and France, which the Hundred Years War is long gone but that rivalry lives on often kind of in a slightly healthier guise of sports and cultural jibes, but you know, raises its specter in some uglier things around Brexit and Anti Europeanism. And I am so curious how you think the British feel about Joan of Arc now because her whole life was basically saying God prefers the French. The French are destined to claim back their territory from the English. You know, the English are on the wrong side and traditionally we in Britain don't love stories in which we're on the wrong side. I've noticed.
- [34:10]
Peter Frankopan
I've noticed that too. It's interesting that such a prominent French figure would be famous in Britain. I mean, I don't know what our equivalent is in the uk, you know, Lady Godiva, Guinevere and Arthur and the Round Table. I don't think there is anybody. So the fact that people know her name is in itself quite significant here in England. I don't think people take a view about whether she was working against England on the side of the French. I think that story of bravery still is an important one. But she's the kind of quintessential medieval figure. But what's Unusual about her is the fact that she's a woman with great political agency and the fact that she is repressed and suppressed and put down by different establishments, as we've talked about. So, I mean, I think that Helen Castor, who we've mentioned a few times in this series, is exactly right to describe Joan as a superstar. And here's what Helen says in her book, Joan of Arc History. Her forceful charisma is palpable in the transcript of the trial that condemned her to a heretic's death. It transformed the maid into a legend, an icon and a saint. In gaining a saint, however, we have lost a human being. This ferocious champion of one side in a complex and bloody war has been robbed of her context and her roaring voice. There's something always tricky with history about picking on exceptional people, but I think it's her strength of character, Joan, that is the most remarkable thing of breaking through. You know, we talked about Marie Antoinette, we talked about lots of people from elite backgrounds. Lots of people use violence to get to where they want to. But Joan has a very particular quality. I think that is perhaps not surprised that she's a feminist icon. Perhaps not surprised that she's seen by some as a non binary icon because of her hair and having to dress in men's clothes and being persecuted for it. But I think that as you just mentioned, Afwa, the reason why I think she's so compelling is that that personal bravery speaks to the conviction to fight for your beliefs. And those in Joan's case are Christian beliefs. So it's a bit of a shock to see Joan being evoked by hardline communists or by the far right, as happens too, because I suspect that those would be rather away, away from Joan's own perspectives. But I think that living and dying in the kind of Christian way that you mentioned, the parallels of Christ's life are unmistakable. And I think that that's why here in England we revere Joan of Arc. But I don't think that people have negative opinions of her.
- [36:29]
Afra Hersch
I think it's actually really important to acknowledge that that happens now. I mean, now she's so popular that, you know, even in Britain we've kind of stripped the anti English part of the story out and we just remember her as this incredible pioneering woman. I'm sure in France they think of her a bit more as a pro French specifically figure, which she really was. But people like her are not never properly recognized in their lifetime. There was this TV series a couple of years ago. It's not brilliant so I'm not advertising it, but it was a kind of second coming of the Messiah. Now, in contemporary society, like what that would look like, this person who claims to be sent by God to have these divine voices, to have this vision to be here to save humanity. And, of course, the reaction to him in this fictional telling of it is some people want to section him because they think that he's seriously mentally ill. Other people want to imprison him because they think he's a religious fundamentalist who's been brainwashed and trying to brainwash others. And, you know, I think that really rings true, that we would really struggle in our contemporary society, much as we like to look back at Joan of Arc and feel like we would have recognized her virtues if we'd have been living contemporaneously with her. If a Joan arrived now, I doubt she would be taken seriously, respected. She would maybe be highly medicated or imprisoned or put on trial for something else, you know, And I think the forces that condemned her still exist. They just evolve. We are still threatened by somebody who represents something that we're not used to, that pushes the boundaries that make us have to accept reality as more complex than we had conceived it. And I think it's important to say that, because otherwise we look at the legacy of someone like Joan of Arc and we don't recognise what they really represent now, which I think is a challenge and a demand, actually, to think about, what does that look like if it appeared today and how could we be more receptive to it than her contemporaries were then?
- [38:27]
Peter Frankopan
I'm going to be more upbeat than you, Afra. You know, I think that I'm easily persuaded about the cynicism about people being put in their place and being medicated out of reality and being silenced by. But I do think there is a place for people who are brave, people who we could admire, and of people who can lead. And it's, I think, fair to say that in the world of today, they are in reasonably short supply. You know, wherever you look, it's much easier to find leaders that one doesn't want to relate to than leaders that one does. But there are people who do incredible things with their lives. A bit like Joan, had she not been leading armies at Orleans. Lots of them are in the charitable sector or they're unsung heroes or they're carers. And I think that moral that we can learn from people like Joan, it's not just about leadership and being outspoken. It's about the day to day of how one can live one's best life by being strong in the face of adversity or by standing up to persecution and to people who create problems. And that's the sort of point of sainthood. That's the point of looking back, of studying history. I think it's not just to create some kind of ethereal beings that are closer to God. It's about learning from people who've lived in a way that you could admire and respect, whether you're Christian or not, actually. And I think in that sense, Joan is a person who's much braver and tougher than I am, and someone who, in the face of incredible pressure, you know, lived a life that I find hard to understand how someone could have that strength of character. I wish there were more people like that in politics, but you can see plenty of them in other walks of life. So I've learned a lot from all the different figures we have talked about. But I think there's something extra special about Joan and something about her character that I think is. Is she the only saint we've covered? I think she probably is. Lots of villains, but I think sometimes when you read the sort of sources that we do, you feel lucky to try to read through the lines and see how they're written and who by. But every now and again, you have to say, look, maybe I should just take my hat off and say, well done to have done that by the age of 19. You know, it's not the same as an influencer. It's not the same as someone who gets strung up by the press. You know, that strength of conviction is something that I've taken very seriously from this series.
- [40:38]
Afra Hersch
I couldn't agree more. I'm totally inspired by her life. And I think one of the things is that you don't have to be perfect to be an exemplary person, and you don't have to have a specific set of motives that everyone agrees with to show what it looks like to live a life of purpose. And it's that, for me, that she was so secure in her mission and so unwavering in her sense of her calling. And I think so many of us in modern life are struggling to find a sense of purpose. You know, we get so buffeted by the pressures of money and status and feeling like we can just kind of keep it ticking that we sometimes forget the bigger picture. And here is someone who really shunned material comforts, refused to accept the boundaries and constraints that were put on her, essentially overcame all of the accusations and harmful, hostile, violent assaults. That were made against her character and her body and just kept doing what she thought she was put on the earth to do. And and that is incredibly inspiring. And as I said, I think there are a lot of personal development lessons that could be useful for us in this day and age.
- [41:56]
Peter Frankopan
In which case, Afwa, let me ask you for your three words. Although do you know what? I think I always ask you the three words, which is very unfair because I put you on the spot.
- [42:03]
Afra Hersch
I'm going to ask you for your three words. Come on, what are your three words for Joan of Arc?
- [42:08]
Peter Frankopan
I'm going to go for brave, devout, and inspirational. None of those three are particularly revealing or surprising, but I think that those sum are up for me.
- [42:17]
Afra Hersch
I hear you. My three words are understood the assignment.
- [42:22]
Peter Frankopan
Oh, I like that.
- [42:23]
Afra Hersch
It doesn't even need explanation. She did what she came to do. I mean, I respect that enormously.
- [42:29]
Peter Frankopan
So that's the moral of this episode. Understand the assignment. I like that. So that brings us to the end of Joan of Arc and thanks Alfred. I've learned so much. It's been such a pleasure as always.
- [42:38]
Afra Hersch
I have really enjoyed doing Joan of Arc with you, Peter, and this whole series. It's been so interesting. I've come out different from how I went in. So thank you. Thank you everyone for listening and taking the time to go on this journey with us. Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from Wondery and Goal Hanger. This is the final episode in our series about Joan of Arc.
- [43:33]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.
- [43:52]
Afra Hersch
We've used many sources for this series, including Helen Castor's biography, Joan of Arc A History. Legacy is hosted by me and Wahersh.
- [44:00]
Peter Frankopan
And me Peter Frankopan.
- [44:02]
Afra Hersch
Scene writing by Shayan Matalucco. Joan of Arc is voiced by Jacqueline Valsez.
- [44:08]
Peter Frankopan
For Goal Hanger. Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. The associate producer is Robin Scott Elliott. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [44:23]
Afra Hersch
Legacy is sound designed and engineered by Will Farmer. Music supervision is by Scott Velasquez for Frissensink. Our producer for Wonder is Emanuela Quinorti Francis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [44:35]
Peter Frankopan
The executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.