Joan of Arc | The Girl Who Made a King | 2

Summary

Legacy Podcast Summary

Title: Legacy
Episode: Joan of Arc | The Girl Who Made a King | 2
Hosts: Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan
Release Date: June 4, 2025

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Introduction: Joan’s Ascendancy Post-Orleans

In the second episode of Legacy, titled "The Girl Who Made a King," Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan delve deeper into Joan of Arc's transformative impact on France during the Hundred Years' War. Following her remarkable victory at Orleans in 1429, Joan, a teenage peasant girl, emerges as a pivotal figure in French history, revered by the French and dreaded by the English.

Notable Quote:
Peter Frankopan emphasizes Joan's rise, stating, “In only seven weeks, Joan the Maid, that teenage novice soldier, has chased the English out of Charles' immediate lands and has even taken a step into English France, just like she promised” ([03:31]).

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The March to Reims and Charles’ Coronation

Joan's relentless drive leads her and the French forces to march towards Reims, the traditional coronation site for French kings. This mission is not merely political but deeply spiritual, as Joan believes she is fulfilling a divine mandate to see Charles crowned as the legitimate King of France.

Key Events:

• Victory at Patay: Boosted by newfound recruits inspired by Joan’s leadership, the French defeat the English at Patay, further weakening English influence ([03:31]).

• Reims Coronation: On July 17, 1429, Charles is anointed in Reims Cathedral with Joan by his side. The ceremony is depicted as a spiritual and political triumph, reinforcing Joan's belief in her divine mission.

Notable Quote:
Peter Frankopan reflects on the coronation's significance: “They’re spiritually incredibly powerful because they’re not just about proclaiming authority, they’re about creating a connection between the mundane and the divine” ([12:22]).

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Ambitions Turn Towards Paris

With Charles crowned, Joan sets her sights on Paris, the English-held capital. The Duke of Bedford, the English regent, perceives Joan as a supernatural threat and seeks to undermine her influence. Joan's attempts to negotiate with the Burgundian Prince Philippa fail, heightening tensions.

Key Events:

• Attempted Diplomacy: Joan's letter to Philippa Burgundy is ignored, leading to increased frustration and a decision to march on Paris ([16:21]).

• Battle of Montpeille: On August 14, 1429, Joan leads an assault on Montpeille. Despite her bravery, the attack fails, and Bedford reinforces Paris’ defenses, forcing Charles and Joan to retreat.

Notable Quote:
Afua Hirsch analyzes the political backlash: “This opens up all of this omnipresent misogyny and class snobbery. And now, at the first opportunity to weaponize that against her, those who are vested in keeping girls and women out of this order are quick to take advantage of that” ([35:22]).

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Challenges and Accusations

Following the failed siege of Paris, Joan faces mounting challenges. The University of Paris accuses her of heresy, exploiting her unconventional role and gender to discredit her divine mission. Simultaneously, internal French politics and dwindling resources undermine her military campaigns.

Key Events:

• Allegations of Heresy: Accusations are leveled against Joan, questioning her divine backing and portraying her actions as satanic.

• Strained Resources: During the siege of La Charité-sur-Loire, Joan encounters logistical difficulties, including lack of funds and supplies, leading to the abandonment of the siege ([37:51]).

Notable Quote:
Peter Frankopan discusses Joan’s internal conflict: “She is desperately trying to reconcile her divine mission with the brutal realities of war” ([28:32]).

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Joan’s Personal Struggles and Faith

Joan’s unwavering faith is both her strength and vulnerability. While her conviction inspires her troops and fuels her determination, it also leaves her ill-equipped to handle the complex political and military setbacks she faces.

Key Insights:

• Faith vs. Strategy: Joan’s reliance on divine guidance often clashes with practical military strategy, leading to frustration and strategic setbacks.

• Emotional Turmoil: The constant violence and her role in it cause Joan to struggle with her personal beliefs and the morality of war, highlighting her psychological complexity.

Notable Quote:
Afua Hirsch reflects on Joan's internal battle: “This is a young woman who... has a very, very religious... she has to reconcile her sense of... divine providence... with the reality of... gruesome battles” ([28:32]).

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The Turning Tide and Future Prospects

As the English regent prepares a formidable army led by the young King Henry VI, Joan remains steadfast in her mission to drive the English out of France. The episode concludes on a cliffhanger, setting the stage for the next chapter in Joan’s tumultuous journey.

Key Events:

• English Reinforcement: Henry VI arrives with a large army to decisively crush French resistance and eliminate Joan as a threat ([44:36]).

• Joan’s Determination: Despite setbacks, Joan is eager to re-enter battle, demonstrating her relentless commitment to her divine mission ([44:36]).

Notable Quote:
Peter Frankopan encapsulates Joan’s resolve: “She’s desperate to get back into battle, to dust off her armor and to show that God will deliver the decisive victory that she's been promising” ([44:36]).

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Conclusion: Joan’s Complex Legacy

This episode of Legacy paints a multifaceted portrait of Joan of Arc—her extraordinary courage, unwavering faith, and the personal and political challenges that ultimately lead to her downfall. Joan is portrayed not just as a military leader but as a deeply conflicted individual grappling with the moral implications of her mission.

Final Thoughts: Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan highlight the irony and tragedy of Joan’s journey, where her strengths simultaneously pave the way for her vulnerabilities. The episode sets the stage for exploring the culmination of her efforts and the enduring questions about her legacy in subsequent episodes.

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Credits:
Legacy is hosted by Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan, with scene writing by Shayan Matalucco and voice acting by Jacqueline Versai. Production includes contributions from Jane Morgan, Anoushka Lewis, and a talented production team dedicated to bringing Joan of Arc’s story to life.

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For those intrigued by Joan of Arc’s compelling story and her pivotal role in shaping French history, Legacy offers a richly detailed and thought-provoking narrative that continues to explore the complexities of her legacy.

Transcript

[AFWA Hirsch]

Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of violence and might not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. Wondering.

[Peter Frankopan]

Hello, and welcome to the second in our series on Joan of Arc. We left Joan, a peasant girl, on a mission from God. Having won a stunning victory at Orleans, she's become the most famous woman in France, if not in fact all of Europe. Adored by the French, feared by the English.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Against all the odds, this teenager has seemingly saved France from being taken over by the King of England. Perhaps she really has been sent by God and she's not finished yet. She's determined to rid France of the English for good.

[Peter Frankopan]

From Wondery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankopan.

[AFWA Hirsch]

I'm AFWA Hersh.

[Peter Frankopan]

And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asked if they have the reputation that they deserve.

[AFWA Hirsch]

This is Joan of Arc, episode two, the Girl who Made a King. After Joan's dramatic triumph for Orleans in 1429, ending the siege and reviving the fortunes of Charles of France, there's no time to rest. Orleans is just the beginning.

[Peter Frankopan]

Peter Another English army is marching south to rescue the English garrisons holding out further up the Loire. And the English and their Burgundian allies are still a very powerful force. Remember that France is divided between Charles Armagnacs on the one side and the English and the Burgundians on the other. And in effect, the Burgundians are the ones who hold the balance of power.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Joan, the Duke of Alencon, and Jean the Bastard, the three victors of Orleans, march up the Loire to confront the English. Alen has royal blood, so should be in charge. But these are not ordinary times. This is Joan's gig, as he openly acknowledges years later, he'll tell a story of how he was scared ahead of the attack on the walled town of Georgiou. Then Joan turns to him.

[Joan of Arc]

Noble Duke, are you afraid? Don't you know that I promised your wife to bring you back safe and sound?

[Peter Frankopan]

That battle at Georgiou is duly won, although not before Joan is hit by a rock thrown from the castle ramparts, splitting her helmet. But as at Orleans, where she was wounded during the attack, she's soon back on her feet, urging her men on to victory. Soon the fortresses of Maine and Beaugency fall quickly, and then the English army retreats towards Paris, with the French in pursuit. I mean it really is a big reversal of fortunes.

[AFWA Hirsch]

The French, boosted by a surge in numbers, catch up with the English at Patay and inflict a resounding defeat. Around half the 5,000 strong English army are killed and most of their commanders captured.

[Peter Frankopan]

In only seven weeks, Joan the Maid, that teenage novice soldier, has chased the English out of Charles immediate lands and has even taken a step into English France, just like she promised. And in the words of a Burgundian knight, by the renown of Joan the Maid, the hearts of the English were greatly changed and weakened. And they saw, as it seemed to them, that fortune was turning her wheel harshly against them. And by these operations she acquired so great praise and renown that it really seemed to all men that the enemies of King Charles would have no power of resistance in any place where she was present, and that by her means, the said king would shortly be restored to his kingdom. And that's really quite something afoy. Now, those are the words of a Burgundianite, so not exactly an ally. So her fame, her reputation and the power that she has, you know, they are being spread and talked about by France's enemies.

[AFWA Hirsch]

And one of the most tangible effects of this perception of Joan as anointed by God is that it is an incredible recruiting tool. The French army is absolutely swollen at this point by new recruits who want to join, who want to be part of this cause, they want to be on the winning side and they want to be part of this historic moment where they are led by what I think people are realising in real time will be remembered as a phenomenon. So Joan may not be the arch military strategist working out the battle plans. Basically, her plan is charge, but her obvious courage and her unwavering conviction is in itself such a powerful weapon in this war.

[Peter Frankopan]

And like you say, afwa, there's nothing like success to encourage other people to come and join you, partly because you want the spoils of war, but also you don't want to be on the wrong side. She's everything that King Charles isn't. She goes into battle all the time, a bit like Henry V did, but King Charles doesn't, partly because his father had been captured by the English, so that might be politically sensible to stay out of the way. But Joan is leading from the front, and so it allows Charles to sit in the background and get all the credit and the benefits. So these towns keep switching sides, shutting their gates to the Burgundians and then opening them to the Armagnacs, but it's really to do With Joan, she is front and centre of the whole of this French revival.

[AFWA Hirsch]

You might think that she is living her best life at this point, thrilled at how everything's going, but that's not the reality for somebody who is this driven by a bigger sense of purpose. She is getting frustrated. Despite this victory, despite this popularity, she still has her eyes on the bigger prize. She's promised to get the King to Reims. That is her mission. She wants to see him crowned. But his commanders are, in her opinion, getting distracted by these plans to attack the English in their heartland of Normandy. Now it's a hundred or more miles through Burgundian and English territory to Reims. But Joan insists I was right at Orleans and I'm right about this. And such is the momentum behind her that it is agreed we will march for Reims.

[Peter Frankopan]

And Reims is important because it's the cathedral, which is the traditional place of coronation for French kings. And although Charles calls himself king, he needs to be officially crowned and he'll be anointed with the sacred oil of Clovis, the first king of France, from the holy hour that's kept in the cathedral. And of course, it sends a strong statement that he's the real king of France confirmed on his throne. But it's also about the purpose of a coronation. And the purpose of coronation is to show that God has chosen you and has anointed you, so it gives you spiritual power. So Joan is not only interested in the politics, she's doing this for God and therefore the cathedral. And the key point of a proper, full coronation is what makes the sacred story, the importance of God's role in the visions front and centre. And that's really important, I think.

[AFWA Hirsch]

So it's significant that she manages to rally everyone to her side, to align with her vision. And on they go on the march to Reims. Charles, Joan, Alencon, Jean the bastard set off at the head of a large army on 29 June 1429. Some of the towns along the way, like Auxerre, quickly submit. They're promised if they open their gates, all their past misdeeds supporting the Burgundians will be forgiven.

[Peter Frankopan]

Or.

[AFWA Hirsch]

But Troyes doesn't. Joan dictates one of her letters to her chaplain and sends it into the town.

[Joan of Arc]

Very dear and good friends, if that is what you are, my lords, townsmen and people of the town of Troyes, Joan the maid brings you a message from the King of Heaven, her rightful sovereign lord, in whose royal service she spends each day. But you should submit yourselves in true recognition to the noble King of France, who will very soon be in Reims and in Paris, whosoever may oppose him. And he and in his fine towns of this holy kingdom, with the aid of King Jesus, loyal Frenchmen, come before King Charles and do not fail. And have no fear for your lives or your possessions if you do so. If you do not do this, I promise and swear to you on your lives that we will enter, with God's help, into all the towns which rightfully belonged to this holy kingdom, and we will impose a good and lasting peace. Whosoever opposes us, I commit you to God. May God preserve you. If that be his will, reply at once.

[Peter Frankopan]

But the letter is ignored. Charles's commanders just want to march on. I mean, just leave Troyes to one side. But Joan says, no, we're here to do God's will. And again she wins the argument, convinces the men to attack, and the preparations begin. She rides out in full view of the town's defenders, while overseeing the preparations, which last for four days. But the residents of Troyes decide that they've seen enough and they surrender. By the 15th of July, Joan and the army are closing in on Reims. A delegation from the town rides out and they will bend the knee. I mean, it's the Joan effect in real time.

[AFWA Hirsch]

On the evening of the 15th of July, Charles and Joan ride into Reims. They're greeted by cheering crowds and there's no hanging around.

[Peter Frankopan]

Preparations begin at once and there's little sleep to be had that night, because everything has got to be made ready for the following morning.

[AFWA Hirsch]

July 17, 1429. Reims Cathedral. A pale morning sun shines through the stained glass of the Grande Rose Window, dappling those waiting below with shades of red, purple and green. The day before, Charles had ridden into the city to so much noise and excitement. Now, in this holy place, voices are low, but there's no less excitement in the air. Then, from outside the cathedral's great walls, the sound of hooves on stone. A hush descends as it gets closer. Finally, through the west door, come four knights on horseback, the coloured light bouncing off their full armor. Ahead of them, barefoot, walks the Abbot of Saint Remy, dressed in gold holy robes, carrying the sacred oil of Clovis. He hands them Holy Ampula to the Archbishop of Reims. The crowd holds its breath. The silence only breaks when the choir starts to sing. Au pere, au fil esprit, Saint Jeu, que nous aement. Charles kneels before the Archbishop, who anoints his head, chest, shoulders and Arms with the oil. But the eyes of the crowd are not just on Charles nor the Archbishop. There on the maid Joan, standing next to Charles, her armour freshly polished, holding her white banner. Joan's eyes are half on Charles, but also half on the crowd. She knows her father is here. He's travelled all the way from Domremy to see her, but she can't quite spot him yet. Her mother couldn't come, but she's in Joan's thoughts too. She wonders if they're proud of her. Then the whole crowd is cheering. She smiles and turns to face Charles. It's finally happened. The Archbishop has placed a crown glittering with diamonds on Charles head. He rises. Joan is overwhelmed. She drops to her knees before him. Noble king, God's will is done. Nothing can stop her tears falling.

[Peter Frankopan]

So, I mean, it's amazing. We've had in the last few years royal funerals, coronations, the funeral of the Pope, and these moments of great pageantry, of course, visually extremely significant, but from a kind of ritual point of view, likewise. But they're spiritually incredibly powerful because they're not just about proclaiming authority, they're about creating a connection between the mundane and the divine. And I can imagine anybody witnessing a coronation at this period in time, particularly a young woman, being absolutely convinced that this shows divine goodwill, benediction and blessings, that the man who is the rightful king of France is now in the right cathedral, having the crown of France put on his headset. It's a vindication of everything that Joan has been saying, but also it's an indication of her own belief and her faith. I mean, it's extremely powerful story, isn't it?

[AFWA Hirsch]

It really is. I mean, it does take a bit of imagination for me, because while you so well point out we still have some of these rituals, some of them practically unchanged, no coronations, as you said, and funerals, but they've been so diminished in their spiritual significance now I think now they've more become cultural and patriotic and about institutions. But I think the people who watch them are less likely to believe that this is literally God's will in the way that medieval people would have. And, you know, for me, I have to admit, it's a little hard to match the, I think, incredible sense of purpose and divinity that Joan believes in herself with the actual goal, which is putting this flawed human on the throne and all of the politics and kind of more base forces at work when it comes to the intrigues at medieval courts and the actual realities of being a king. But for Joan, these things go Hand in hand, her divine mission is to see him coronated. And this coronation is a real fulfillment of what she knew would happen. And it is incredible. I mean, everything so far has basically happened as she prophesied. And for people watching, that must have been an incredibly humbling thing to witness.

[Peter Frankopan]

What's remarkable is you could call it mission accomplished, but it's the speed at which Joan has galvanized and changed the fortunes of Charles and of the French. So it's just taken two months since we began this story and has changed the course of the Hundred Years War. And, you know, because we've followed Joan in her character, she's not resting on her laurels. So the next stage is likely to prove even more challenging. Having got to Reims and to the cathedral, it's time to target the biggest prize of all, the capital. It's time to take Paris.

[AFWA Hirsch]

With Charles crowned, all eyes turn to Paris, the capital currently held by the English and the Burgundians. The Duke of Bedford is the English regent in France on behalf of the infant king and Henry vi. Bedford is one of Henry V's brothers, so the uncle of the infant king, and like his brother, the king before him is a ruthless and determined man. He's also vastly experienced and very angry.

[Peter Frankopan]

He knew that he had had France on its knees before the Maid had come along. He sees her as a witch. She's changed everything, but against England's interests. So he orders Philip of Burgundy to Paris to remind him whose side he's on. And Joan has been portraying her crusade as throwing the English invaders out of France, calling on France and all French people to unite against the English. And she's winning the PR battles as well as the actual battles. So Joan turns her sights on cultivating Philippa Burgundy as well. So she writes a letter to him through her chaplain.

[Joan of Arc]

High and mighty Prince, Duke of Burgundy, Joan the Maid calls upon you, by the King of Heaven, my rightful and sovereign lord, that you and the King of France should make a good and lasting peace, forgive one another entirely in good faith, as loyal Christians should do. Prince of Burgundy, I pray, beseech, and call upon you as humbly as I can, that you should make no more war in the Holy Kingdom of France. I bring you word from the King of Heaven, my rightful and sovereign lord, for your good, for your honor, and upon your life, that you will win no battle against loyal Frenchmen, and that all who wage war against the Holy Kingdom of France wage war against King Jesus, the King of Heaven and of the whole world, my rightful and sovereign Lord, and with my hands clasped, I pray and call upon you that you fight no battle and wait no war against us, neither you nor your men or subjects. And know surely that however many men you bring against us, they will win nothing at all. And great sorrow will be the result of the great battle and the blood that will be shed there by those who came against us.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Philip never replies to Joan's letter and she is getting increasingly frustrated. She wants to march to Paris and take it. Enough of this parleying, this diplomatic back and forth. For Joan, actions always speak louder than words.

[Peter Frankopan]

I mean, it's one of those funny ones where, you know, if history turned in a different way, Paris could have been an English city with sort of fish and chip shops everywhere rather than the baguettes.

[AFWA Hirsch]

No, but it's hard to believe that Paris was at this time basically an English city. I mean, it's really fallen out of public consciousness. For most people.

[Peter Frankopan]

It could have been a very different world. But the march on Paris begins at last, and it's slow. But towns, one after another, begin to open their gates to Charles's army swinging behind the Armagnacs. It's that Joan effect again. And one poet at the time writes of her as the she warrior. Another that she's been sent from God, who has given her a greater heart than any man's. And yet that's also tricky for the king because, you know, he wants all to be the center of attention. So Joan getting all the credit, you know, she's not going to be completely popular with everybody, despite her miracle working.

[AFWA Hirsch]

And she's still not happy. She is frustrated. This is too slow for her. She doesn't want all of this diplomacy and behind the scenes talks about a truce. She just wants total victory. She wants Philip to bend the knee to Charles, but she might be a powerful symbol in battle, but she doesn't have any real ability to intervene in politics. So the faffing around by Charles and his council is just what the Duke of Bedford wants. It gives him time to borrow a bit of his big brother's approach. He can rally his troops. He heads for Paris and he's ready to prepare the city's defences for any attack. And just picture the Duke of Bedford, this English aristocrat who believes in a patriarchal system where divine order rests on titled men. He is absolutely apoplectic that this young peasant girl with absolutely no lineage to speak of has already caused his side so, so much defeat and is now threatening their very stronghold in France. He's Furious with Philip, with Charles, and above all, with Joan, who has become the thorn in his side.

[Peter Frankopan]

August 1429. The English camp outside Paris. The Duke of Bedford, John of Lancaster, paces around his tent. Ever since a messenger had brought news of Charles's so called coronation, he cannot bear to be still. How dare Charles make himself king? And why does this pathetic Charles have this child, a girl, to add insult to injury, with him? Why is everyone talking about her as though she's been sent by God? This is not right. He was one victory away from defeating the French. And then the maid arrived. And Philip. Might his head be turned if he's seduced by the combination of Charles and the girl? Then they're done for. The Duke stops pacing for a moment and peers out of his tent. He sees a group of his men nearby, one of his captains dusting off a map showing the rest of the huddle the route for tomorrow's journey. He sees some of the soldiers, follow their brows. He leaves a tent and goes towards them. Don't worry, he says as he reaches them. The French appear strong now, but we will soon defeat them. How can you be sure? Says the captain, who'd been holding the map, edging some of the others out of the way so he can get closer to the Duke. What about the maid? What about the maid? The Duke snaps back. A woman in men's clothing is detestable in the sight of both God and and men. She's disordered, she is dissolute, and she has no power to strike fear in English hearts. The French don't seem to think so, says another soldier. The word from Paris is that it might soon turn back to Charles. No. The Duke is furious now. This heresy must be countered. Striding back to his tent, he yells for parchment and ink. He picks up a quill and begins to write a letter. The Dauphin, he writes he'll never call him king, is parading around a sluttish woman of ill repute. Dressed as a man and dissolute in her conduct, he adds, she is abominable in the sight of God. Scrawling his signature, he bawls for a messenger who rushes in through the tent door. Take this to Paris immediately, he says, thrusting the sealed document into the terrified man's hand. Make sure you give it to someone in charge. Go now. Wake them if you have to.

[AFWA Hirsch]

I think from the Duke of Bedford's perspective, he doesn't really have a choice. I mean, the English are not going to accept that God has anointed their enemy. The other side, that they are the ones destined to win and that this girl has been sent by God to defeat them. That's not going to be an easy pill for anyone to swallow. And actually their entire national pride and sense of the order of things depends on disproving her credibility. And there is genuinely a lot to lose here. This is exactly what Joan should have expected the English to do. I guess the question is how Charles responds.

[Peter Frankopan]

Historians sometimes call this a kind of hinge moment. You know, it's the butterfly wing effect. It's the bit where a single decision turns the wheels on which history turns. And one of the questions here, I think, is if the French of Charles had kept on going, might Paris have fallen? Is the lack of ability to press on to do with logistics? Is it loss of nerve? Is. Or is it overconfidence? But either which way. The challenge is how Joan is going to keep control of that direction, that impetus that she's given over the course of the last few months. Can she galvanize and keep the momentum going? I think that's the real question here.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Finally, on the 14th of August, the two armies, the Armagnacs and the combined English Burgundian forces, come face to face at Montpeille, just to the north of Paris. At last, Joan is going to get the action she craves. Or is she?

[Peter Frankopan]

So, I mean, it must be quite a sight. On the one side, the English Burgundian army, the Duke of Bedford flying the banners of France and England, because they regard young Henry VI as the King of both. And facing them, the army of the man who also calls himself the King of France. Although Charles himself, as usual, is tucked away somewhere at the rear, he's no leader on the battlefield. Instead, the banner flying at the front of the Armagnac army is the distinctive white one of Joan the Maid. She sits alongside Jean the bastard and the other captains of the army, and she is desperate to lead the charge against the English.

[AFWA Hirsch]

As is usual for the start of the battle, there's this moment where there are a few initial parries and counter thrusts, but then nothing. The English, with their archers lined up behind a wall of spikes, are not for the budging and the Armagnacs pieces, bitter experience, especially the traumatic memory of Agincourt, are very reluctant to attack a line like that.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, longbows are deadly and the English and the Welsh are incredibly good. They're very well trained, they're very accurate and it gives them a range that traditional soldiers. You can't get closer, so it's a devastating line of defence and you've got to think very carefully about how to attack and if to attack. But Joan, as we've seen her, can't control her frustration. So she comes out holding her banner high and she rides up to the English lines and yells at them to come out and fight, but they won't budge. Night comes and when the sun rises, the English are gone, heading back to Paris, because Bedford has no benefit in risking a set peace battle. He's made his point. Let them try and take the walled city of Paris if they dare.

[AFWA Hirsch]

The problem is that Joan's success has rested on basically one approach, which is gung ho, go forward. It's really her first major experience where that approach hasn't worked, where the troops haven't rallied behind her because to them it felt like a kind of suicide mission. And it's not until September 1429, three weeks later, that she finally does get to have a go at Paris. PETER that's right.

[Peter Frankopan]

And Paris is a formidable target. It's surrounded by a large ditch with tall walls, fortified towers with arrow slits and gun placements. And basically it's the strongest city with west of Constantinople, modern Istanbul. And it's unlike anything that Joan has faced before. And Paris, because it's big and has water supplies, you can hang on for a really long time. But she needs a victory in Paris to keep emphasizing approving her claim that she's been sent from God, not just to defeat the English, but to drive them out of France.

[AFWA Hirsch]

On Thursday 8th September 1429, the Feast of the Nativity of the Virgin, Joan raises her white banner and the attack begins on the Port St Honore, the Western gate that leads to the palace of the Louvre. To the Burgundians inside Paris, attacking on this day, a holy day, a holiday, is sacrilege.

[Peter Frankopan]

As the Armagnac cannon pound the walls, the defenders shoot back. The noise of war, the cannons, the screams of men and horses fill the Parisian air. And Joan, as always, is at the forefront. And she's also easy to pick out. She's leading her men as they pile bundles of wood into the ditch so that they can get closer to and attack the walls. Arrows and stones are being fired down and hurled from the ramparts by the defenders. These kinds of scenes are typical of any siege warfare, but they are bloody, they really smell. There are a lot of dead people. A lot of people get very badly injured. It's hard not just to keep your morale going, it's physically exhausting. So Joan, being visible in front of all of these men is symbolically hugely important. But she's also a target waiting to be hit.

[AFWA Hirsch]

I think it's also worth saying as well. And it sounds like a strange thing to raise at this point, but Joan has a very ambivalent relationship with death. While she wants these glorious victories which necessitate kind of annihilation in battle, she always maintains that she holds her banner, that she's not going around actually wounding and killing people with her sword. But regardless, she is presiding over and leading these battles that are for the sole purpose of killing people and gaining territory. And she's really uncomfortable with that. And you can, I think, imagine that sense of ambivalence. I mean, this is a young woman who by her own sense of identity and by all witness accounts, is very, very religious. She spent a lot of her life in prayer in this kind of sanctuary of this village mass, in confession. She has this, she feels direct relationship with God and Jesus. This is not a violent idea of faith that she has, but she has to reconcile her sense of kind of divine providence and this yearning for the peace of being at one with God with the reality of having to be in these incredibly gruesome battles. And I don't think she ever gets truly comfortable with that, Peter. And for me, this whole idea that she claims she never kills anyone is her attempt to kind of square the circle and say, well, yes, it was God's will that I lead battles, but it wasn't God's will that I personally take a life.

[Peter Frankopan]

I think it's also an expression of faith. You know, you're convinced that God is going to protect you and that, you know, God's will be done. So to some extent, I think that the bravery is driven from the conviction that of Joan's beliefs. And that I think is also, in today's day and age, hard to understand. But if you study the First World War and the ideas about men being set over the top of the trenches to almost certain death, that illusion of serving your country, serving God, and it's a good thing to die for your faith. It's not quite as remote and middle aged as we might all think, but in this case in Paris, the attack lasts all day and, and Joan is rallying people all the time. And when the sun begins to set, Joan shouts up to the men on.

[Joan of Arc]

The battlements, surrender to us quickly in the name of Jesus. For if you do not surrender before nightfall, we will come in there by force, whether you like it or not, and you will all be put to death without mercy.

[AFWA Hirsch]

A crossbow bolt thuds into her thigh. Joan stumbles. And then another. Another arrow pierces the foot of her standard bearer. He lifts the visor and another arrow hits him between the eyes. He falls dead right beside her. You would think that that would be a massive distraction to say the least, and actually a very upsetting thing to witness. But still, Joan carries on. She herself is bleeding as she demands her men keep up the attack and keeps demanding it keeps. Even as the retreat is sounded. It's as if Petyr, she just refuses to hear that call to retreat. She refuses to accept how wounded she is, her troops are, and the extent to which this is not going according to her plan.

[Peter Frankopan]

Yeah, I mean, she's incredibly brave. She's hauled from the ditch, she's brought to safety. But despite her wound, the next morning, she wants to attack again. And she pleads with Alen and the other commanders to keep on going. But the decision is made to fall back. Bedford is approaching with a relief army and Charles doesn't dare risk losing, so he retreats to keep the army intact. And that's Charles decision. But I wonder whether you think it's damaging also, afwa for Joan, the idea of sounding a retreat. I mean, do you think that you just attack at all costs, no matter how difficult and dangerous, how many losses you have? Do you think Jones could understand the idea that sometimes it was worth regrouping rather than throwing yourself at the battlements and hope that God will keep you safe?

[AFWA Hirsch]

I think Joan's strength is also her weakness. The strength is this unwavering conviction and just charging forward in total courage and fearlessness. And that's so inspiring to the men who want to be part of her army. It's also a weakness because it's not strategic. It's kind of like only got one mode which is on. It doesn't have a kind of fall back, regroup, take a beat. And she doesn't really know how to cope with something more complicated. I don't think we can really blame her for that. If she was that sophisticated military mind, she would never have been able to inspire this kind of confidence and following in the first place. But this is a really difficult moment for her. And I think it's also a really interesting question where the voices that speak to her are right now, because at the beginning of her arrival onto the scene in battle, she has this constant stream of instruction that she believes is coming from God and it's not leading her and guiding her in the same way. At this point, you know, depending on how you interpret these voices, you could say that God's abandoned her. You could say that the noise of her own mind is interfering with her conviction because she's witnessing such upsetting scenes of violence. She's beginning to see that the men who make political decisions are working behind the scenes in ways she can't control. But however you describe it or interpret it, that kind of one dimensional sense of forward purpose is wavering at this point, and that must really be wreaking havoc on her own confidence as well.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, it's a real challenge because on the one hand, she has the conviction of faith and the direction of God, but also she has the king who has the ability to give orders. So it's a sort of fork about, do you follow what you think God is telling you to do, what the King is telling you to do? And that's one thing. But this is obviously a real turning point for Joan in her life as well as in her mission and what she's done for Charles and for the French. So she leaves a suit of armor as an offering before the image of the Virgin at the Abbey of St. Denis before the retreat begins. And the Duke of Alenon, who's a very astute commentator, says that and thus was the will of the maid and the King's army broken. Those things go together that Joan's powers are crumpled by the fact that she has to withdraw. So inside the walls of Paris, the writers are quick to wonder whether her failure means that perhaps she's not sent from heaven but from hell, because there's been no miracle. Maybe Orleans was no miracle and Joan hasn't been able to deliver it if she's really been sent by God. So the opposition believe she wouldn't have been wearing men's clothing. And so that sort of turning point, it's another key factor. So Charles decision to withdraw militarily, perhaps sensible, but it undermines Joan's position and I think fatally wounds her.

[AFWA Hirsch]

This is the very unedifying specter of people jumping off a sinking ship. You know, while she was leading these totally unexpected victories, it was divine providence, she was sent by God. But now the tide is turning. People are rewriting the story and saying, well, Orleo, you know, it was lucky, it was no miracle, it would have been won anyway. And moving the goalpost that actually Paris is the test and the failure to win Paris means that actually God isn't on her side. And that opens up all of this omnipresent misogyny and class snobbery. And general conservative instinct to preserve the status quo, that actually this girl who is wearing men's clothing and doing men's work and claiming to have direct access to divinity is a threat to the order. And now, at the first opportunity to weaponize that against her, those who are vested in keeping girls and women out of this order are quick to take advantage of that.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, a letter is sent from the University of Paris to Rome accusing Joan of heresy. Before, the fact that she was a woman and she was brave and she was young and she was virginal meant that she was a beacon of light. Now she's insulted God by fighting on the feast day of the Nativity. She's doing the devil's work by inciting violence and war. So it's a huge setback for Joan because she no longer seems invincible. And suddenly there's a line of attack that people can blacken her name. And of course, as she rides back miserably to the south, a truce is declared until April, and the English begin preparations to crown young Henry VI as the King of France.

[AFWA Hirsch]

The Duke of Alenon still has plans to reclaim land with Joan at his side. He wants to take her with him to Normandy to reclaim some of his lands there. But the king's council are not up for the chaos of these two running amok in Normandy, when they have bigger deals to do with the English and are invested in this truce.

[Peter Frankopan]

So instead, Joan is sent to deal with frontier troubles caused by a mercenary called Perrine, who's taken over a chunk of land up in the Loire, and she takes the town of St. Pierre. In October, she marches on to take resell stronghold at La Charite sur Loire, laying siege as instructed by her king. And it went on for more than a month and the weather grew colder.

[AFWA Hirsch]

November 1429. La Charite sur Loire. Joan sits on a rock, watching the fat snowflakes as they fall against the pale gray sky. A few hundred yards away, the fort of Le Charitay looms over them, immovable, a reminder of their lack of progress. She wonders what her family are doing right now. Would they be ashamed if she returned home without completing her mission? It has been a month, a soldier says as he walks away from the fort and over to where Joan is sitting. And we are getting nowhere. We have to keep the faith, Joan says. In response, a voice crack showing her lack of certainty. Joan looks around her. There are still a few men placing ladders against the fort towers and digging trenches. But most of the soldiers have given up. They look thin, Joan thinks, to Herself thin and tired, Joan doesn't care that they've run out of food. She doesn't eat much anyway. But how can Charles expect these large men to fight if they have nothing to give them energy? That's why she sent out a message to the King yesterday, asking for money for food and supplies. She's hopeful a positive response will come today. Just before the light goes completely, Joan can make out a soldier on his way towards her, coming from the direction of the town. As he gets closer, she smiles. A message from the King? She asks. Yes, the soldier replies. But he doesn't look at her directly. Instead, he stares down at the paper in his hands. He sends his respects to the Maid of Domremy. But there is no more money to give. No. She is horrified. This is so unjust. But there is worse news. His Majesty says that we must call off the siege. Joan sinks to her knees. How has it come to this? Oblivious. The snow continues to fall.

[Peter Frankopan]

So I guess it's a bit like going from the stadium tour to performing in the pub. You know, it's one thing being at Orleans and besieging Paris, and now you're sort of tin pot local village trying to bring some mercenary to heel, being sort of disavowed by the King who can't even send you tiny amounts of petty cash to help you bring someone to order. But Charles does give her something back as a sort of reward. Earlier that summer, he's announced that her village, Domremy, would be exempt from taxes. Now Joan the Maid and her family are to be ennobled. Her parents, Jacques and Isabelle, and her brothers, Jacquemin, Jean and Pierre, and all their descendants, both male and female. It's very unusual to give titles that were passed through the female line too, are to be ranked amongst those of noble birth for services to France given and for services to come.

[AFWA Hirsch]

It's an interesting question how much Joan would have appreciated these measures. I mean, she doesn't value material things herself, or. There's no evidence that she really cares about the status of nobility. But she is beginning to see a future for herself as almost God's enforcer on earth. During the winter, she writes to the Hussites, a breakaway Czech Christian sect that the Pope wants to mount a crusade against.

[Joan of Arc]

For some time now, reports have been reaching me, Joan the Maid, that you have turned from being true Christians to become heretics and like Saracens. Indeed I. In truth, had I not been occupied with fighting, the English would have visited you already. However, unless I hear that you have mended your ways, I may well abandon the English and march against you so that by the sword, if I cannot do it another way, I shall destroy your empty and abominable superstition and strip you of either your heresy or your lives. But if you return to the Catholic faith and your former enlightened state. State. Send me your envoys and I will tell them what you should do.

[AFWA Hirsch]

What do you think the letter to the Hussites tells us, Peter?

[Peter Frankopan]

I think she's looking for something which she can be plugged into big power. She wants to be in the movies. You know, she wants to be up front, in front of the camera. So she knows that the Pope is involved. She knows that this is a heresy. She knows this is enforcing God's will. So I think it's that what Joan has been taught, or what she's thinking is, is that she's on earth for a reason. To do God's will and to stamp out heresies and to restore order and to let the Holy Spirit and God's word spread properly is a proper vocation. And I think that she's probably sort of jumping on a bandwagon here because, you know, Czech Christian proto Protestants are, you know, not a grave threat to France or to Joan, or I dare say the Christian Church at this time. But I think she's looking to use her influence and the ways in which she's seen that she can be highly active in proper, serious frontline politics.

[AFWA Hirsch]

You know, the Hussites, actually, as you describe them, a proto Protestant sect, you know, were absolutely more tolerant towards women and kind of moving away from some of the really patriarchal ideas of the Catholic Church. But Joan isn't a tolerant person when it comes to faith. She believes the Saracens, as they called Muslims, are on the wrong side of God. She doesn't like any deviations from strict Catholic doctrine. So she's not somebody we can easily hold up as this kind of beacon of feminism and tolerance. She is an agent of the Catholic order, and that is what she believes in. Not just this kind of vague spiritual idea of doing God's will, but really enforcing the Catholic order on the world.

[Peter Frankopan]

I mean, ironically, that's what Jan Hus, the founder of the Hussites himself, was sort of trying to do, to sort of purify God's message. I mean, that's a kind of funny parallel. But before she can think of setting off on this crusade, there's still the future of France to settle. And this, of course, is her main mission, to rid France of the English, and thanks to her, Charles is in a much improved position to drive them out.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Except the English are in no mood to go anywhere. As the clock ticks down on the truce, the English are preparing to make France theirs once and for all and theirs alone. On the 23rd of April, Henry VI, the boy king, lands at Calais with a huge army. The English have come to settle the French question for good, determined to crush Charles and destroy this problematic young woman who's threatening to inspire the nation against them.

[Peter Frankopan]

And Joan, of course, being Joan can't wait. She's desperate to get back into battle, to dust off her armor and to show that God will deliver the decisive victory that she's been promising. And she's ready to risk everything to achieve it, even her life. That's next time on Legacy.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.

[Peter Frankopan]

From.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Wondery and goal hanger this is the second episode in our series about Joan of Arc.

[Peter Frankopan]

A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history, but our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Coach We've used many sources for this series, including Helen Castor's biography, Joan of Arc a History. Legacy is hosted by me, AFWA Hirsch.

[Peter Frankopan]

And ME, Peter Frankipan.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Scene writing by Shayan Matalucco. Joan of Arc is voiced by Jacqueline Versai.

[Peter Frankopan]

For Goal Hanger. Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. The associate producer is Robin Scott Elliott. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.

[AFWA Hirsch]

Legacy is sound designed and engineered by Will Farmer. Music supervision is by Scott Velasquez for Prison Sync. Our producer for Wondry is Emanuela Quinotti Francis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sibley.

[Peter Frankopan]

Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.