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- [00:00]
Afra Hersch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:08]
Peter Frankopan
This episode contains descriptions of violence and might not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.
- [00:16]
Jacqueline Valsez
Wondering.
- [00:25]
Peter Frankopan
Hello and welcome to a new series of Legacy. This time we're talking about a young woman, a girl even, who helped change the course of French history. She's been called the savior of France.
- [00:37]
Afra Hersch
A she warrior, a saint to some, a heretic to others, a young woman of incredible courage and determination in her day, revered and hated in equal measure. May 30th is her saint's day, still marked 600 years after her death at the age of just 19.
- [00:57]
Peter Frankopan
And it was that death, an appalling, cruel and public end, that helped form her legend. Was she sent from God to free France and to put the rightful king on the throne?
- [01:07]
Afra Hersch
What drove her, real or imagined, can still be debated, but hers is a legend that's endured through the centuries.
- [01:25]
Peter Frankopan
From Wondery and Goal Hanger Peter Frankopan I'm Afra Hersch and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:48]
Afra Hersch
This is Joan of ARC, Episode 1 the Maid of Orleans.
- [02:05]
Jacqueline Valsez
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- [03:52]
Narrator
The sun is beginning to go down and the still air is cooling. A young girl, maybe 13, in a faded red dress, is walking down the dry track towards the field where her father is cutting corn. From the village, she can hear the church bell ringing. I'll have to bake Warden Perrin a cake, she thinks to herself. It is only my cakes that help him remember to ring the mass bell. And we must remember our services. We must remember to pray. As she walks, she lets her hand run through the tall grasses at the side of the track, her mind wandering. But then something is happening. The softening golden sunshine seems suddenly to be brighter surrounding her. She stops, confused, blinking against the dazzling light. And then she hears it. A voice. Did someone just call out to her? She turns. There's no one there. She keeps walking. But then she hears the voice again. A voice she's never heard before, and it's calling her name. Joan. Joan, listen. Listen to me. Her heart races. Tears start in her eyes. She is afraid. But she stays where she is. She is listening.
- [05:22]
Peter Frankopan
Joan is about 13 years old when she starts to hear voices. And this first voice that Joan is supposed to hear is that of Saint Michael or Saint Michel, the patron saint of the local area and a defender of France. And she says that Saint Michel tells her God has a great pity for the people of France and that she must go to the king. I wonder what you think, Afwa, about the hearing of voices, the invocation of patron saints, military action being called for, for the French king being passed through a young woman.
- [05:51]
Afra Hersch
Well, my first instinct is actually to think about voice hearing as a wider phenomenon, because hearing voices or auditory hallucinations is actually much more common than I think people realize. There's research that shows up to 1 in 10 people hear them. And when I was a news reporter, I actually worked on a story about this new exhibition that was kind of celebrating voice hearing as an incredible contribution to art and creativity. And I was really surprised, I have to say. I'd always associated it with mental illness, schizophrenia, conditions that have been regarded as problematic. It had never occurred to me that it could be a perfectly healthy part of ordinary life. And it really kind of awoke me to the real range of people and circumstances in which voice hearing happens.
- [06:38]
Peter Frankopan
I think it's so interesting. We've spoken before about storytelling and about oral traditions and about how narratives are passed down through Akan people in West Africa or in oral traditions in Central Asia. You know, how important ideas about what we in the west think of as being supernatural and sort of untrustworthy. But, you know, even Today in the 21st century, anthropologists always will remind me that most people in the world, in terms of majority, believe in the supernatural. They believe in the idea of being able to hear voices. And for them it is something that's very real. So, you know, we could be too cynical, but I mean, this particular case, Safwa, you know, it's not just a voice, it's a saint, and it's someone telling her that the mission is to save France. I mean, do you think the political importance of this story is one of the reasons it makes Joan so interesting?
- [07:24]
Afra Hersch
It makes sense in the context of her worldview? I mean, this is the middle ages, the 15th century, an intensely religious time where people didn't have advanced science or medicine or even access to global news to understand what was happening to them. She's living in a country that's grappling with its own survival, this existential threat to its identity because of these wars and captures by the English. So it kind of makes sense, doesn't it, in context, Peter, that if she's going to hear a voice, it's going to be one speaking to the crisis that she's living through and offering some kind of hope. And in that particular era in France as well, there was this wider phenomenon of female prophets or women who were mystics having visions. And in particular, Marie Robin, who in the 1390s had had visions of a virgin saving France, and a virgin specifically from the same region of France that Joan lived in. I don't know, Peter, whether we can say with any certainty whether Joan was aware of. Of that prophecy and was self consciously stepping into the shoes of someone who could fulfill it.
- [08:34]
Peter Frankopan
I'm particularly interested in the role that women play as sort of Witnesses, and particularly poor women. And it's something that I think is so interesting, that role that gender plays in Joan's story. It's going to become a defining period in both French history, English history and the history of Europe. But it goes beyond that, too. So Tchaikovsky wrote an opera about her in the 19th century, so people in Russia know about Joan of Arc 500 years later. Michael Morpurgo, who's most famous for the War Horse, wrote a novel about her too. Even people like Mark Twain wrote about her and Chapel Rowan dressed up as her last year. And of course, afwa, you're on our favourite thing, which in fact, we're working our way through. I can see you smiling. It's Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, where Joan of Arc. She's there too. I'm not sure. Have we got anybody left still to do from Bill and Ted?
- [09:25]
Afra Hersch
I love our highbrow references.
- [09:27]
Peter Frankopan
Aristotle? No. Socrates. We've got Socrates still to go.
- [09:31]
Afra Hersch
I mean, there is, as you said, these literary references, Mark Twain, even Shakespeare. But there's also the fact that still to this day, if you as a woman, get your hair cut in a certain bob, it is sometimes described as a Joan of Arc bob. I mean, her impact on hairstyles has been monumental. She occupies such an emotive place because it's so easy for modern feminism to claim her as a pioneer. It's easy for the Catholic Church, which has now beatified her after the fact. I mean, it's always after the fact, but, you know, kind of really radically changed its stance on her to claim her as a saint. There's so many different subcultures in which she occupies this huge role. And I think as a woman and a young woman interested in history, there have been so many women who played profoundly important roles, but not many of their lives have been recorded in written record, in meticulous detail. And we have this incredible body of evidence, contemporaneous record about her, and that's really rare. And I think for lots of girls and women in particular, who really yearn to see people they can relate to reflected in history, both from a class perspective. As you said, coming from a rural village, she had no access to the elite, she had no experience in battle, she no qualification to give her the confidence to stand up and take up space on a political stage. And yet she did all these things. Nobody can say for sure whether she really heard these voices, whether she had some kind of mental illness or was deluded and thought she heard them, or whether it was really God intervening In her life and the destiny of France, all we can do is really try to make sense of her psychology and that of the people around her.
- [11:14]
Peter Frankopan
Well, she won't be the first woman in history to be excluded for being mad or crazy or listening to voices rather than being taken seriously. Let's start at the beginning. So Joan is born in the village of Domremy in the Vosges in northeastern France in 1412. She's one of five children of Jacques d' Arc and Isabelle Homais. Jacques is called a peasant farmer. In fact, he owned about 50 acres of land which is, you know, not that small. And he's a village tax collector, so he's literate. He's able to understand the apparatus of government. And her early years are spent helping her father, doing the kinds of things I think that you'd imagine anybody in a rural setting would do. Taking care of sheep, plowing, helping grow vegetables and taking her turn at the spinning wheel.
- [11:57]
Afra Hersch
I think there's also some misperception. It's really important to correct here, because I think there's been this tendency to depict her as this kind of lowly shepherdess, maybe partly influenced by the New Testament kind of glorification of the humble shepherd. She wasn't a shepherdess who spent her life following sheep around. She was a part of this family that was really at the center of village life. She had an uncle on her mother's side who was an official in the church. So her family is respectable. And she is very religious, even as a young girl. She's described as well behaved, pious, modest. She was kind of obsessed with church. She went to mass often, multiple times a day, confessed multiple times a day, said to fall to her knees when the church bell sound, so much so that the village boys tease her for it. The church warden later tells how when he forgot to ring the evening bell, Joan would tell him off and then resort to bribery, bringing him cakes to reward him when he remembered. That's how attached she was to the rituals of church and prayer. That's also partly explained by the context. In the Hundred Years War, Domremy was raided at least twice during Joan's childh. And the second of those raids was around the time she first hears voices. We don't know if that's directly linked to the experience of being attacked, but it's also, I think, thinking about her childhood, on one hand, it seems quite idyllic, you know, this really beautiful part of rural France. But there is this looming threat and this crisis that the country is facing. So, Peter, let's talk about the Hundred Years War. And I have to say, this is not history that I grew up knowing in detail. I knew about Agincourt, that was a big deal. I watched the Shakespeare treatment of Henry V. But in a context where Britain and France have been at war on and off for so much of history, can you help us understand what was really important about this history, about the Hundred Years War and what we need to understand to make sense of Joan's life?
- [13:58]
Peter Frankopan
Do you want the long version, Afra, or the really long version?
- [14:01]
Afra Hersch
I absolutely don't want the hundred year version.
- [14:06]
Peter Frankopan
You definitely need to be a full subscriber. I mean, first thing is, it wasn't called the Hundred Years War until much later. And in fact, partly because it lasts 116 years, but in fact, the challenge is that after the Norman conquest of England, after 1066, there's a kind of connection between the European mainland and England. And as the kind of groups of kings all marry each other, there are competing claims for who owns which parts of which country. And so the Hundred Years War, as we think about it, starts in 1337 to do with the claims of Edward III in France, and it's really to do with who gets to be king of France. It's not continual. The most famous event, as you mentioned, is the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, and it's about Henry V when he lands in France with an army that includes the famous longbowmen and against all the odds, destroys the French. And it's the most famous battle in English history. French history too. Helen Castor is a brilliant historian. A friend of mine has put it, france lay broken on a field of blood. So in these kinds of constant conflict and warfare, there's always a question about not just who's right, but whose side is God going to favour?
- [15:14]
Afra Hersch
And you can really see with something like the Battle of Agincourt, when the French are defeated so overwhelmingly by numerically inferior English forces that that must have felt like a sign, like some kind of judgment. It must have been hard to compute just on the facts of the numbers, respective, strength of their armies. So this idea of God sitting in judgment feels like a powerful one. And the French feeling so not just defeated, but morally broken at this point.
- [15:46]
Peter Frankopan
And I think it's a heady mix if you're the king. I think that those two questions about why have we been punished? Or what are we getting wrong on the one hand, and also what do we need to do to improve and get better those actions and events are continually being examined for God's influence. But equally, things like a failure of crops, you know, to be looking for where evil is, or the devil, or temptation to try to say that the reason we're going to win is we need God on our side, but we need to live in a better way. And I think that that is something that is sort of simmering underneath any conflict. It's not just about right and wrong. It's about decision making, and it's about how do you learn from your mistakes. And so there's an appetite, I think, to be listening to the kind of message that Joan's going to deliver.
- [16:28]
Afra Hersch
And it's not all the English versus the French, of course. It's more complicated than that. So we also have these factions within France. And the Armagnacs, on the one hand, are battling against the Burgundians, on the other hand, these really powerful factions within the French aristocracy to wrestle for control of the king. And this is a conflict within France that is particularly salient to understanding Joan's life.
- [16:54]
Peter Frankopan
And those the Armagnac and the Burgundians, as Helen Caster says, effectively means that France has two governments. The king in France has to try to juggle those two competing interests. And the more you reward one, the more you have to reward the other. And, you know, it's a tough job ruling a court. You've got to be good at it, and you've got to be charismatic. Then you've got to have good judgment. So, I mean, in 1418, for example, the Burgundians capture Paris and they take control of the king, who now gets known as Charles the Mad, either because he suffers from psychotic episodes or because he's said to suffer from psychotic episodes. In a way, it doesn't really matter. And at that point, the almanacs flee, and they take with them the Dauphin, who is the heir to the throne. I mean, it's a bit complicated in our story because he's called Charles, just like his father is. But that split between different factions in France gives real opportunities for the English to be able to exploit.
- [17:46]
Afra Hersch
And for Joan, it's the Burgundians who are the bad guys. They control Paris and the north and east where Joan lives. And it's actually groups that are allied to them that are carrying out these punitive raids, making life so miserable for these rural villages. Meanwhile, the Dauphin and the Armagnacs, who Joan and her community believe are the rightful inheritors of France and should be on the throne, they've been confined to the south and the center of France, and increasingly marginalized from the rest of the country, cut off from access to the greater land and wealth. Meanwhile, the English control Normandy, Gascony and Calais, aligned with the Burgundians. So France is really divided. And one of the things that's playing on Joan's psyche is the idea that the Dauphin, who she believes should be king of France, has been so humbled, and that's a really humiliating position.
- [18:39]
Peter Frankopan
So in 1420, there is a hammer blow for the Dauphin. King Charles and the Burgundians make a deal with King Henry of England, which is that when King Charles dies, Henry will become the King of France, and the Dauphin at that point is cut off. France will be united into a single kingdom with England.
- [18:58]
Afra Hersch
Then there is a plot twist, because Henry and Charles, the two kings who have done this deal that cuts off the Dauphin, both die within a year of each other. That leaves, according to the Dauphin, the path wide open for him to become, as he thinks he always should have been, the rightful King of France as Charles vii. But, say the English and the Burgundians, not so fast, because they have a different heir in mind, Henry's son, Henry vi, who is to be King of England and King of France. So now we have a new generation warring over who is the right thing, heir to the French throne.
- [19:37]
Peter Frankopan
And that puts impetus into the English armies, because whenever there's dispute and debate and lack of clarity, that gives an opportunity to gather more allies. So the Duke of Bedford, the brother of the dead king of England, Henry V, is now in charge of the English armies. He's a very able commander, and the English begin to gain the upper hand. So in the summer of 1428, an English army lays siege to the key city of Orleans. And if that falls, the English and the Burgundians will have Charles's remaining lands at their mercy. So if Orleans falls, then Charles himself may very well fall too.
- [20:13]
Afra Hersch
This reduces Charles the Dauphin, who thinks he is the rightful king of France, to a pitiful state. He is now a king without a kingdom. The small amount of territory he does control looks set to be snatched from him. He's running out of money, he's short of men. He is in deep water and increasingly desperate. And then on the 23rd of February, 1429, a small group of riders arrive at the gates of the huge fortress in Chinon in the Loire Valley, where Charles has his court. Charles's fortunes are about to take an extraordinary turn, because among their Number is a 17 year old girl who is about to rewrite the history of France.
- [21:20]
Peter Frankopan
So Joan has her first vision in 1425 about how France will be united and how Charles will become the king, the rightful king, with her help. But it's not until 1428 that she manages to convince anyone to do anything about it. We don't know why there's that three year gap. But she finally arrives in Vaucouleurs, the closest town of significance to her village. And the town's captain listens to her and sends her away. But a few months later, she's back, insisting that she should be taken to the king.
- [21:52]
Afra Hersch
There's a suggestion that Yolande of Aragon, Charles's astute mother in law, first hears about Joan at this point, which explains why the town's captain changes his mind and then does send Joan off to see the king. And I think we need some kind of explanation, Peter, because imagine a teenage girl marching up to the captain of a town and saying, take me to the king. The chances of that simply being carried out seem incredibly remote and implausible.
- [22:19]
Peter Frankopan
Except for young women can suddenly get traction. I mean, we can think about Greta Thunberg in the world today. You know, a young woman from Sweden, no particular claim to fame, and yet becoming a global I. These things, they can happen. So some of it's about being in the right place at the right time, having the right message, but also exactly as you said, afwith somebody important hears you, then you could get propelled. So in this case, Joan is sent off to go to the king. And it's a long and dangerous journey. So Joan is given an outfit of men's clothes, a black and grey tunic, a doublet hose and breeches.
- [22:54]
Afra Hersch
Importantly, on her head, she wears newly cropped hair. We've already talked about how iconic that DIY haircut becomes over the centuries. She wears on top of that a black woolen hat pulled down low to her eyes. I'm sorry, Peter. It's a vibe, fashion wise. You have to give her that.
- [23:14]
Peter Frankopan
I'm seeing it. Yeah. I love the beanie. Is that what you're thinking?
- [23:17]
Afra Hersch
And it's also very non binary. I mean, it's a really bold take on gender and style. And I'm not saying that's what she intended. I don't think she set out to become some kind of fashion icon or some kind of gender icon. But her focus on getting the job done leads her to do things that are actually very bold, innovative, and actually pretty stylish.
- [23:40]
Peter Frankopan
Well, it's for her physical safety, you know, Traveling through war areas with lots of soldiers and men. It's extremely precarious. And the physical safety and the sexual safety of women won't surprise anybody. That the reason why Joan is dressed as a young boy is to keep attention away from her. I mean, as it happens, she's also given an escort for the 270 mile journey to Chinon, much of it across Burgundian territory. The group's led by a royal messenger, further evidence that her visions and stories about her visions is beginning to spread. But that way in which she's dressed and being disguised is partly because she's a trophy item as a visionary, but also because she's a young woman.
- [24:19]
Afra Hersch
So this is the group that turns up at the gates of Chinon in February 1429, this slip of a girl, just 17, dressed in men's clothing with short hair. And we also know that she's very petite, she's very slim. She is not somebody in any way physically imposing or matching the expected appearance of somebody declaring as she does that she has come to save France, to secure Charles on the throne. I think there's also something about the way she is virginal because virginity played a huge role in how she was perceived and fed into people's religious perceptions. And she also made that a very core part of her brand. You know, the maid, the maiden, the virgin. She was this virginal, small young woman in a way that was threatening because it was something that people had to take seriously. You know, they believed in the Virgin Mary, they were highly religious and schooled in the images of Christianity. And there were these other prophecies going around about this one in particular that we talked about, that a virgin would come and save France. Add to that that they are in a desperate state. I mean, it would take a miracle at this point to restore the Dauphin and save France. And so here comes along someone who kind of matches the idea of what a miracle might look like.
- [25:42]
Peter Frankopan
There's something about Joan, her demeanor, the timing, the message that is extremely compelling. And, you know, I think one has to give a little bit of space for the fact that people don't just want to hear what she's saying, but there's the way in which it's delivered, has proper kind of heft to it. But, you know, the challenge, I think, for the dauphin, for Charles and his advisors, is not just if she's the real deal, but it's are the visions and the voices that she's hearing, are they sent from God or are they sent from the devil to that extent, you know, for example, the book of Deuteronomy says a woman dressed in men's clothing, which is how Joan arrives to see the Dauphin, is an abomination unto the Lord. So the question is about not just who is she? Are the messages real? It's are they going to make things worse rather than better?
- [26:27]
Afra Hersch
Joan is sent to Poitiers to be investigated by the king's clerics, which is called a discernment of the spirits, I. E. An investigation into whether she represents God or the devil. And the first stage in testing this is for two women from the court to test her claim as to her virginity, because that is so central to the idea that she could be a messenger from God. And Joan does pass that test.
- [26:49]
Peter Frankopan
So they confirmed that she is a pucelle, which means, you know, a young virgin, pure. The state of adolescence between childhood and sexual and physical maturity. And then she starts to call herself Joan the Maid, which is a common name that she's known by, or Jeanne la Pucelle in French. That's how she starts to refer to herself. And as you said, Afro. The next stage in this particular case is to be taken to be questioned by a panel of men for three weeks, by the Archbishop of Reims, or as we call it in English for reasons that are slightly obscure, Reims, but the sort of the big cathedral city in eastern France. That's sort of the place where the French kings have always been crowned.
- [27:28]
Afra Hersch
This is where I start to get interested in the supernatural. Because to me, for a girl of that background who's not educated, who has nowhere near the kind of conditioning and preparation that these men, I mean, these are some of the most high status, well equipped men in the kingdom to be conducting an interrogation. She has none of their background, none of their advantage. She's never been in a situation like that before. And yet she manages to hold her own under intense questioning for three weeks. One girl before a panel of men. I mean, that to me is a miracle. Just the fact that she can withstand that, hold her own, never lose sight of what she believes is her purpose and her mission. And she is successful. She comes out of that with her head held high, having convinced them that what she says is true. And the clerics conclude, and we have this preserved as a written record, for to doubt or discard her without there being any appearance of evil in her would be to reject the Holy Spirit and render oneself unworthy of God's help. The king should not prevent her from going to Orleans with his soldiers, but should have her escorted there, honorably placing his faith in God.
- [28:46]
Peter Frankopan
So that's just what the clerics say. She also has a medical report produced by doctors that says she has conversed with everyone publicly and privately, but no evil is found in her. Only goodness, humility, virginity, piety, integrity and simplicity. So you know it's as good a score you could get. So the thing to do now is to send her to Orleans and see what happens. And what has anybody got to lose? So with that all settled, Joan is sent back to Chinon to finally meet the King for the first time. But there is one more test to go through.
- [29:19]
Afra Hersch
First March 1429 Fortresse de Chinon Yolande of Aragon waits by the door in the great hall. Orange flames from freshly lit torches light the room full of waiting men. She's tired and is growing ever more tired of her son in law, Charles Court, constantly questioning Joan. The girl has passed all their tests, has she not? The wooden door finally creaks open. The girl is here at last. Joan steps lightly onto the tiled floor. Slender, dark hair and dressed like a man. Yolande grimaces as she takes in Joan's outfit, a black and grey tunic, a doublet that seems two sizes too big and dark breeches. The girl looks weary after days of interrogation. Yolande tries to catch her eye, but Joan is focused on the crowd of French noblemen in their red, blue and black silk doublets. Yolande looks for Charles to try to see his reaction, but she can't spot him anywhere. A nobleman takes Joan by the arm and guides her towards the Count of Clermont. Slowly the Count rises and in introduces himself as the king. Yolorne stops her mouth from opening. What are they doing? Then it dawns on her. They're testing Joan again. Joan looks at the man and slowly shakes her head. No, she says. This is not the King. The crowd erupts. Someone else grabs Joan and turns her towards another duke.
- [30:56]
Peter Frankopan
Duke.
- [30:56]
Afra Hersch
Joan shakes her head again. No, she says. Her voice is unexpectedly firm and clear, ringing out over the murmuring in the hall. This is also not the king. The noblemen roar, some shouting their approval. Joan pulls away from her self appointed guide. She walks around the row of courtiers, finding Charles standing behind them, grinning, not giving anything away. He stops grinning when Joan kneels. Gentle Dauphin, I am called Joan the Maid. The King of Heaven sendeth you word by me that you shall be anointed and crowned in the city of Reims. The crowd is shocked into silence. Yolande smiles to herself. This girl is exactly what we need.
- [31:53]
Peter Frankopan
The point here is that there's no way she could have known which person was the king. And everything she does seems to point to some kind of divine intervention. Joan has passed all the tests. She seems like she's the real deal, and she's now got the backing of the king. Now it's time to turn words into deeds. Joan the Maid is going to war.
- [32:37]
Afra Hersch
Joan is getting ready to fight. She's to lead an army up the Loire and end the siege of Orleans by the English to get France back on its feet.
- [32:47]
Peter Frankopan
It's a ragtaggle army cobbled together from every spare noble and peasant. And Joan herself, you know, she's ridden horses, as you mentioned, after covering hundreds of miles to get to Chinon, but, you know, she has to learn how to ride on horseback. It's one thing to give an inspirational speech or to be able to pick out the dauphin. It's something else to be expected to go into war as well. But I think she is being treated as a kind of lucky emblem to have on the battlefield, too, rather than what you might expect is to be placed somewhere safe and out of bounds so that she can continue having her visions.
- [33:19]
Afra Hersch
She has to actually ride into battle. She doesn't have anything to wear. Always the first problem when you're doing something new. So Joan has to get a suit of armor specially made for her. And armor doesn't usually come in female varieties in the Middle Ages, so that in itself is a big undertaking. And she has this vision that she needs a banner, that this banner is going to be central to her identity. So she has a banner designed by a Scottish artist with a golden fleur de lys sewn across a white field with the words Jesus Maria and a painted Christ sitting in judgment with an angel on either side. And I think you're right, Peter. You know, the symbolism for her is almost more important than the weaponry that she wants to be seen to be leading this battle in this holy cause. But she does also need a weapon.
- [34:08]
Peter Frankopan
And she insists she knows where to find one. She says that there is a sword hidden in the church of Sainte Catherine de Fierbois. And to the amazement of everybody, a sword is found in a coffer at the high altar that hadn't been opened for 20 years. And St. Catherine is important because she's the patron saint of young virgins and one of the saints who's talking to Joan. So it's very appropriate that this virgin warrior would be carrying a sword. I suppose it's a bit like Arthur And Excalibur or Charlemagne with Joyeuse. It all kind of makes sense in a kind of whole package.
- [34:44]
Afra Hersch
But it's very weird. I mean, how would she know that this sword is hidden in this church, in a coffer that hasn't been opened in 20 years? She'd been to the church, but she hadn't seen the sword. So it's just another thing feeding into this perception that she does have this divine guidance, that she knows things she has no business to knowing that this is all much more important than simply getting a sword in the hands of a girl. It's all part of the divine plan.
- [35:10]
Peter Frankopan
But also a structure is built around Joan. She's obviously so compelling that as well as the armor, as well as going into battle, as well as the banner, she's given a group around her to look after, to protect her. A squire, two teenage pages, her own chaplain. And she uses the chaplain to write a letter to Joan. Well, the King of England. And Joan can't read or write, but she'll become a keen letter writer thanks to the chaplain, usually to those she's about to fight. And she sends letters to people on the opposite side, which is not normal military tactics. Her first letter is sent on the 21st of April, 1429.
- [35:48]
Narrator
King of England, and you, Duke of Bedford, who call yourself regent of the Kingdom of France, submit yourselves to the King of Heaven. Restore to the Maid, who is sent here by God, the King of Heaven, the keys of all the fine towns that you have taken and violated in France. King of England, if you do not do this, I am the military leader, and wherever I find your men in France, I will make them leave, whether they want to or not. And if they will not obey, I will have them all killed. I am sent here by God, the King of Heaven, to face you head to head and drive you out of the whole of France. And if they will obey, I will show them mercy. And do not believe otherwise, for you will never hold the Kingdom of France from God, the King of Heaven. Holy Mary, Sun. But King Charles will hold it, the true heir, because God, the King of Heaven, wishes it. And this is revealed to him by the Maid.
- [36:59]
Afra Hersch
What swag in that letter. She is not messing around. And what's the English response? Unsurprisingly, they are not impressed. You're a trollop. The English commander at Orleans is reported to have replied. That really is what he said, that actual language? Go back to herding cattle or we'll burn you.
- [37:18]
Peter Frankopan
You can, I suppose, imagine getting a letter like that from a young woman who purports to speak for the King of France, for the Almighty God, and to give you warnings too, that you might think that you could have bigger threats passed in your direction. On 29 April, a curious column emerges from the forest on the south side of the Loire outside Ornien, with priests at the front singing a hymn, followed by men at arms, then the soldiers and the carts packed with provisions for the town. And amongst them, with her armor glinting in the spring sunshine, is Jeanne la Pucelle, Joan the Maid.
- [37:55]
Afra Hersch
She's desperate to get stuck in. But first she's smuggled into the town where the people flood out to greet her in a torchlight parade. She's greeted rapturously as their savior. So the English might be cynical, but the people are so ready to believe in this miracle with this mystical arrival. And she's escorted by Jean the Bastard, the affectionately named the King's uncle, and the Duke of Alenon, who are both experienced military men and have already been completely converted to the cause of this 17 year old girl. They take her very seriously and have taken it upon themselves to protect her.
- [38:36]
Peter Frankopan
On the 4th of May, Joan and Jean the Bastard launch the first attack. And they successfully attack the Bastille of Saint Loup, which is a relatively easy target. And Joan only carries her banner into battle, waving it to encourage the men on. And it's one of the oddities of her story that she'll later say, that she never kills anyone in battle. She's about leading and she's not about killing. At that night, she writes once again to the English.
- [39:05]
Narrator
You men of England, who have no right in this kingdom of France, the King of Heaven orders and commands you through me, Joan the Maid, to abandon your strongholds and go back to your country. If not, I will make a war cry that will be remembered forever. I am writing this to you for the third and last time. I will write no more.
- [39:32]
Afra Hersch
This letter is actually tied around an arrow and fired into the English camp. And again. Typically it's greeted with cries from the English of news from the Armagnac whore. Already she is firmly adored by one side and hated by the other.
- [39:52]
Peter Frankopan
And the decisive action at Orleans. There are two strongholds left to take, the Augustins and the tourelles. And on the 6th of May, Augustin is taken after an all day battle at which Joan is front and center.
- [40:05]
Afra Hersch
Now all that lies between the French and victory is the Tourelles. Take that and the miracle will have begun.
- [40:15]
Peter Frankopan
May 7, 1429. Orleans. All the French soldiers are in pain. Even those who are wounded are. Are aching and bruised. Again and again they try and climb the wall with their ladders, rocks and arrows raining down on their heads. The battle began at sunrise and has gone on all day. The light is starting to fade. The English are stronger than they thought. The victory at Augustin seems like a mirage now. Joan gulps as she sees bodies of good French men around her. She hasn't got used to the death or the blood. When she was training, it had all seemed so much easier. Move your sword like this. Balance like that. Just a few weeks ago, she was brimming with fervor and confidence. But things are very different now. It's hard to see a way to win. Seeing our God, the King of Kings, will remind the troops of what we are doing here. It will remind them to keep their faith, she thinks. She grabs her banner, the gleaming white pennant with its gold Jesus Maria. She gets ready to climb the nearest ladder, to wave it for all to see. But as she puts her foot on the first rung, an arrow flies towards her. She hears its whiz a fraction of a second before she feels the searing pain at the base of her neck. She falls and despite herself, cannot suppress a scream. The men nearest to her start at the sound and rush towards her. There's fear on their faces. A large, hard hand covers hers on the arrow's shaft and together they pull it out. Although she screams again once it's done, she gets to her feet. The arrow hadn't gone in far. Some way off, she spots her stalwart John, the Bastard of Orleans. He has seen her fall, seen her blood. And she can tell from the horror on his face that he is about to sound the retreat. This cannot happen. She brandishes her banner and runs towards. Towards the ditch at the foot of the tower. The men around stare at each other in disbelief. And then one cries out, charge. And they follow her quickly, hurling their ladders once again against the walls. This battle is not over yet.
- [42:54]
Afra Hersch
So, after what was looking like a defeat, the tide turned. The commander of the fort, Sir William Glasdale, lost his balance on the ramparts and fell into the river, never to appear again, drowned by his armour. Panic broke out among the English as the sun set and the fortress fell with it. The French victorious. Inspired by the bravery of the maid. The Tourelles is taken. But the liberation of Orleans is not quite done. Peter.
- [43:21]
Peter Frankopan
No. The following day, the 8th of May, what's left of the English army lines up against the buoyant French. But Joan will not let the French attack. Let the English start the fighting, she insists.
- [43:32]
Afra Hersch
But they don't. They've had enough. They turn tail and retreat. The victory is Joan's. After months of stalemate, it's taken her only four days to break the siege. And for her believers, this is the miracle she promised come to pass.
- [43:50]
Peter Frankopan
It is kind of amazing, I think, the victory at Orleans, not just because of Joan and her obvious personal bravery. I mean, there is something on the battlefield that is extremely compelling about seeing people's personal bravery and not giving up. But, you know, to take a big target like this, I think it's really important. I mean, Orleans is an incredibly important city. It's a gateway city. It's very well defended. There's a bit of luck, like you mentioned, the town's English commander losing his balance and toppling over. But I think there's something in the determination of being convinced that you're going to win that carries a long way towards this. And that is, I think, something to do with Joan's presence, but also her faith, the articulating of the idea that God is protecting the French and will punish the English.
- [44:32]
Afra Hersch
Well, I think it's really worth noting at this point as well. For me, you know, there's one thing being a girl and having the guts to go and follow this sense of destiny, but now she's actually in battle. You know, arrows are flying. She herself is wounded. She doesn't run away. She doesn't freak out. She keeps going. She's really fearless. And I don't know if you've seen the Luc Besson film the messenger, which is this 1999 film kind of reimagining her life, but in that they imagine this battle where she's wounded and the English think they've got her, and then she just kind of bounces right back, which further spooks them and makes them start to wonder, is this really a supernatural person who's rising from the dead? And I think the combination of this effective military attack, plus this lingering suspicion that there might be the hand of God involved is really playing on everyone's psychology. And the results are quite incredible.
- [45:29]
Peter Frankopan
But, I mean, what happens as a result of this victory is that Joan's fame starts to spread and it catches like wildfire. So two days after the victory at Orleans, a letter is written from an Italian living in Bruges writing to his father in Venice about the remarkable victory that's been steered by a maiden shepherdess. And that's obviously Joan in Rome. The Bishop of Cahors writes of a maid named Joan who accomplishes actions which appear more divine than human. One of the Armagnac's leading clerical experts, Jean Gerson, writes, this deed was done by God. And he also points out that it's fine that she's wearing men's clothes because she's a warrior on a mission from God. But there's so much that's going on so quickly where it's not a French victory and it's not a victory for the dauphin, or it's not for them alone. It's Joan who is central. And as you know, for people getting credit for things, it's quite hard. Normally, you'd think it's the commander of the army, it would be John the Bastard, it would be Charles the dauphin, it would be the men who are brave. So to allow Joan to be put in front of the sort of metaphorical cameras and to be given the credit for it, it's extremely unusual.
- [46:38]
Afra Hersch
This is a story that's going viral 600 years before social media. The speed at which the news of this is spreading, I like that, too. And, you know, you're right, in a way. It is surprising for them to be willing to send to her. But then, on the other hand, everyone's got brave commanders and experienced military men. Only the French side have a virgin instructed by God to restore their divine right. I mean, it's a real trump card. Just think of it in terms of content. If you put that on Instagram, it's visual, it's supernatural, it's completely compelling.
- [47:15]
Peter Frankopan
I mean, there's a bit of cynicism amongst historians and commentators, which is that Joan is also quite a convenient scapegoat, because if she wins, then it's thanks to her and thanks to God. But if it all goes wrong, there's someone ready to blame. But I just think it's very unusual. You know, there's a reason why Joan of Arc becomes so famous. There is a reason why people start flocking back to the dauphin and are being recruited. It's not just about the balance of power and who's got the wind in their sails. It's about Joan and her character. And a knight writes back to his mother after meeting her and says, it seemed to me a gift from heaven that she was there. So certainly there's some projection. But Joan, I think, is an exceptional and very unusual young woman.
- [47:59]
Afra Hersch
But for Joan herself, this is just the beginning. She has promised not just to take Orleans, but to march the king across, across 100 plus miles of Burgundian territory to Reims, the traditional place for crowning French kings. Joan is convinced that once he's anointed in Reims, nothing will stop him, or rather her, from delivering her mission from God and driving the hated English out of France once and for all. That's next time on Legacy. Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from Wondery and Goal Hanger this is the first episode in our series about Joan of Arc.
- [49:10]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history, but our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biography Geographical research.
- [49:29]
Afra Hersch
We've used many sources for this series, including Helen Castor's biography Joan of Arc A History. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwa Hirsch.
- [49:37]
Peter Frankopan
And ME, Peter Frankopan.
- [49:39]
Afra Hersch
Scene writing by Shayan Matalucco. Joan of Arc is voiced by Jacqueline Valsez for Gold Hanger.
- [49:46]
Peter Frankopan
Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. The associate producer is Robin Scott Elliott. Our production manager are Izzy Reed and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [50:00]
Afra Hersch
Legacy is sound, designed and engineered by Will Farmer. Music supervision is by Scott Velasquez for FrissenSync. Our producer for Wondry is Emanuela Quinorti Francis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sidley.
- [50:12]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.
- [50:20]
Jacqueline Valsez
Laundry.