Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:00]
Afua Hirsch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.
- [00:08]
Peter Frankopan
This episode contains depictions of violence and discusses sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. Wondry. Hello, and welcome to the third in our series on Joan of Arc. We left Joan desperate to complete her crusade to expel the English from France once and for all. The shine of her victory at Orleans has lost some of its lustre following the failure to capture Paris, but she is still the focal point of opposition to the English.
- [00:44]
Afua Hirsch
She survived a difficult winter and by the spring of 1430 is preparing to resume the fight. And so are the English. They've sent a vast, vast army to France. They too want this settled and they want the maid dealt with once and for all.
- [01:10]
Peter Frankopan
From Wandery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankopone.
- [01:13]
Afua Hirsch
I'm Afua Hirsch.
- [01:14]
Peter Frankopan
And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:34]
Afua Hirsch
This is Joan of Arc, episode three, Trial by Fire.
- [01:51]
Peter Frankopan
Why are there ridges on Reese's peanut butter cups? Probably so they never slip from her hands. Could you imagine? I'd lose it. Luckily, Reese has thought about that. Wonder what else they think about. Probably chocolate and peanut butter. So we're in the spring of 1430, and France is going back to war. The truce between the English and their Burgundian allies and the forces of Charles VII and Joan ends on Easter Day. Joan is chomping at the bit to get back into action. Ever since she'd led the French army at Orleans a year earlier, she's been a woman in a hurry. She's now 18. She's the most famous woman in France and probably far beyond 2. And of course, Afra. That makes her a target.
- [02:36]
Afua Hirsch
Highly threatening. And the English send a huge army across the Channel, landing in Calais in April. The boy King, his Henry VI, is there himself, along with 22 peers led by Cardinal Beaufort. They mean business. Their aim is to crush the French and crown Henry as the King of France, making him king of England and France.
- [03:00]
Peter Frankopan
By then, Joan is already back in action. In March, she'd been sent to lead a small force to attack towns around Paris, and she'd been successful enough to get the one and only Philippa Burgundy to lead an army against her. In person, he'd march to the town of Compiegne to the north of Paris. It was supposed to belong to the Burgundians, but refuses to open the gates to Philip and instead the town inhabitants side with the Armagnacs and with Joan. And it shows that the pull she still has despite the failure to capture Paris. And Compiegne is a really important town. It sits on the crossroads to Paris and Philip needs to have it. So he submits the town to a siege.
- [03:39]
Afua Hirsch
A key town under siege, desperate for relief. We've been here before. And sure enough, it's Joan who's sent to liberate the people of Compiegne. Perhaps she sees it as another Orleans. This time, instead of going up against the English, she's against the Burgundians. A godsent chance to get over what happened at Paris and gain another victory in the name of God and France.
- [04:01]
Peter Frankopan
La Golien Compiegne was not completely encircled. The there was a way in. So on the night of the 22nd of May, she and her men sneak into the town. The siege was tightening and it was time to fight. The following morning she called for her banner and mustered her men. They crossed the bridge over the Oise and charged out through the fortified northern boulevard of the town, crashing into the Burgundian troops with Joan in the vanguard. But things didn't go according to plan.
- [04:33]
Afua Hirsch
May 23, 1430. Compiegne. Joan tries to call to her men. She shouts as loudly as she can, telling them to keep pushing forward. But she can't even hear her own voice above the din. The town has shown its loyalty to France. She and her men must win for the sake of the people. Her nostrils are full of the metallic stench of spilled blood and her ears ringing with the prize of battle. But then suddenly, she hears a new note in this soundtrack of horror and destruction. She swings around in her saddle and her blood feels like it freezes in her veins. A force of English and Burgundian troops had been held back when the attack began. Now they are swarming in behind Joan and her remaining men, making space with their swords and immediately filling it with more troops, forcing their way into the space between Joan and the safety of the town. Joan screams again at her men, urging them to keep fighting, to cut down this traitorous enemy. But they are faltering, some running across the bridge back into the town. Joan sees them go. And then another sight that nearly causes her heart to stop. The captain of Compiegne is signaling to his men, telling them to push the huge gate of the city into place. He has to keep the Wagundians out. He has to protect his people. Finally, the gate crashes shut and Joan and her remaining men are outside Guide it. Surrender now. A sneering Burgundian soldier taunts her as he rides up close. Never. Jones snaps back, holding her sword to his face. But before she can do anything, someone grabs her from behind and drags her off her horse. She tries to get up and mount again, but she's immediately pushed down. Slowly, she stands and scans the faces of the men around her. She realizes it is hopeless. Which of you is in charge? As a noble, she can't surrender to a common soldier. She sees a captain, Lionel, the Bastard of Vendome, and lays down her sword. Eager Burgundian hands grab her. The Maid is a prisoner.
- [07:00]
Peter Frankopan
Being taken captive by your enemy is terrifying. It's even worse if they know who you are. But she's the prize that everybody's been looking for. And, you know, I think that the fear going through her mind must have been blended with the question of why she thinks she's been captured. Whether she was thinking that this would mean she'd be ransomed, she'd be tortured, she'd be sexually abused.
- [07:23]
Afua Hirsch
It is terrifying. And I'm sure she never really escaped the sense of her vulnerability as a girl. Like a really young woman in the midst of these violent men. There are basically no rules when it comes to prisoners of war. I mean, you know, they could do whatever they wanted to her. So I think it's important to acknowledge, Peter, how scary that is. But I do wonder if she expected to now become part of what was really normal horse trading of war, you know, that her side had English prisoners of war and Burgundian prisoners of war that could be traded. That she would have expected, given her importance and how much of a role she played, that she would just become a bargaining chip and would be ransomed and switched back to her side in exchange for one of theirs. So I would be surprised if she really had a sense of how much this was the beginning of the end for her and if that would have been obvious in that moment.
- [08:17]
Peter Frankopan
Well, I think the propaganda value that she has is enormous. So a Burgundian chronicler writes, by the will of our blessed Creator, the woman known as the Maid has been captured. Her capture, we are certain, will demonstrate the error and foolish credibility of all those who. Who have let themselves be convinced by the deeds of this woman. So the way in which you can make the most of the capture of Joan is to absolutely denigrate her character, her beliefs, everything she stands for. And the more you can smear her, the more damage that you can do to the other side.
- [08:48]
Afua Hirsch
And you can just imagine how smug Philip of Burgundy is at this point. You know, she'd tried to do a deal with him, she'd made life difficult for him, she'd inflicted defeat on him, and now he has her captive, and he doesn't miss a beat in pointing out that the fact of her failure is in itself evidence that she is not on a mission for God, because if she was, why would he allow her to lose and be captured? So this is worse than a defeat. It's evidence that she's a fraud. And now Joan gets passed around by these men who are reveling in her captivity. First Philip of Burgundy, then John de Luxembourg. She's taken to his castle at beaulieu, Les Fontaines, 17 miles north of Compiegne, where she is assaulted, both physically and sexually. A noble who's a friend of Jean de Luxembourg recalls visiting Joan in her cell, and he's with Luxembourg and two English lords, Warwick and Stafford. So these four men come into her cell, taunt her with offers of ransom, which they know won't be fulfilled. And then the noble de Maisy actually makes lunges at Joan. He grabs at her breasts, he pulls on her clothes, forcing her to beat him off with force she can muster. And this is his own account as he recalls it 25 years later. So you can imagine if these nobles, these officials, are revealing themselves, their own attempts to sexually assault her and sharing it publicly, what was going on when no one was watching, when men who had none of their status or expectation were in the cell with her, guarding her. And she's really at the mercy of men who are violent, who deride and hate her. And the thing that every woman can relate to, wanting to protect yourself from sexual assault. In her case, there's an additional dimension, which is that her virginity is a really core part of her identity, and that both she and the people accusing her all believe that it's linked to the power she claims, whether from God or the devil. And so if her virginity is taken away from her, that in itself could break this divine power she has. So you're on so many levels, both relatable and extraordinary. It's a really scary and threatening time, and also politically.
- [11:07]
Peter Frankopan
So when something like this happens, I suppose it's not surprising that the winds blow against you. So, as Helen Castor, her biographer, puts it, Joan had been suddenly transmuted from a knight into a pawn. That sort of chess analogy, a powerful piece into more or less a redundant one. But the almanac reaction turns against Joan quickly, to disavow her and to move away from her. So the Archbishop of Reims, the Chancellor of the King, writes a letter that's designed to be spread across Armagnac lands that says that the Maid or Joan has been captured because she's too headstrong. She's been unwilling to listen to Wire's advice. God may have withdrawn from her now, but he was obviously with her when she achieved the first part of her mission, including getting Charles crowned in Reims. And what choice do they have now but to leave her to the fate that God has always intended for her, that is to say that she'd be captured. So they move away from her. Even her own supporters suddenly wash their hands. And I think that that has a kind of biblical context too, but it's a very cruel one about the ways in which you're suddenly considered dispensable. What about the English afwa? How do they react to her capture?
- [12:13]
Afua Hirsch
Well, the English cannot tolerate the idea that she was ever anointed by God or ever on a divine mission, as the Armagnacs do. She has to be a fraud from the beginning to the end. In their mindset, they believe that she's led the so called Dauphin into a mission that's failed. That it's not godly inspiration but demonic power that's led her to challenge the God given rights of King Henry. She must be interrogated and condemned. And the theologians of Paris University, which is French but very much in the English camp, given the control the English have had of Paris, write to Philip saying that she must be handed over to them for trial. She's lost on the battlefield and now the true light of God and the Church must be shone on her heretical claims. Jean de Luxembourg takes a bit more of a pragmatic stance, doesn't he?
- [13:05]
Peter Frankopan
I just want my cash, he says, give me some money so you know God is useful when you need him to be. And then suddenly it all descends quite quickly. And in the meantime, we now have a new character, Pierre Cauchon. He's the bishop of Beauvais and he becomes the villain of the whole story. He's a bishop without a flock because Beauvais had gone over to the Armagnacs in the wake Charles coronation inspired by Joan. He's a French scholar, but he understands the political machinations of the English Burgundian alliance. He's determined to see Joan tried as a heretic. But he also recognizes that her misfortune could be very good news for him. So there are these chances Everywhere, blowing the wind, trying to use other people's misfortunes to try to promote themselves and to get their own opportunities. So he comes up with an idea. If Jean de Luxembourg wants a ransom, as you mentioned Afra, why don't the English pay a ransom and then hand her over to the church? That sort of keeps everybody happy and their consciences clean while all these grubby.
- [14:06]
Afua Hirsch
Negotiations are going on. Joan, being Joan, isn't about to become a passive victim in the story. She is determined to escape her captivity. And she tries. Twice, actually. The first time, Joan is in prison being held in a cell, and she tries to squeeze between the floorboards, which I think also tells us something about how skinny she is at this point. I mean, she's always been very abstemious and people constantly talk about how little she eats, but you can imagine that all of this war and then this captivity has only made her even more frail physically. But that time she's caught. The next time she leaps from a window. This is a window that is 70ft off the ground. That's about the equivalent of jumping from a seven story building. It really takes a certain kind of person to jump from that high and there's nothing to cushion her fall on the ground. And not surprisingly, she injures herself really badly and actually loses consciousness for some time. There's fears that she's broken her back, but she again recovers. And after these attempts to escape, there's a new sense of urgency to just get this girl on trial. The English are worried about a growth in support for her heroic efforts, becoming widely known and feeding into this narrative about her saintliness. So they need to get the job done.
- [15:26]
Peter Frankopan
Finally, in November, a deal gets done by Conchon. Luxembourg gets his money and the English have Joan handed over to them. She's taken under close guard to Rouen. And on Christmas Eve in 1430, Joan the maid, still aged only 18, arrives in the capital of English Normandy. And from there there's going to be no escape.
- [16:06]
Afua Hirsch
Joan is locked in a cell in the great royal fortress of Rouen. Just a single tower remains today, but it's known as Joan of Arc Tower. And her feet, while she's held prisoner there are manacled, attached to a huge block of wood, while three male guards are in her cell for every minute of every day. So just to be clear, these aren't men outside guarding the door, they are in the cell with her. I mean, it's an incredible violation of space, privacy. You know, even to go to the toilet, she has to have a Guard, take her to the space where there's a chamber port and watch her. I mean, it's really, really undignified conditions for a girl.
- [16:46]
Peter Frankopan
And then on the 3rd of January, 1431, an edict is issued in the name of the nine year old king Henry. So he obviously didn't write it himself, but these are his words. It is sufficiently notorious and well known how for some time a woman who calls herself Joan the maid has put off the habit and dress of the female sex, which is contrary to divine law, abominable to God, condemned and prohibited by every law. She has dressed and armed herself in the habit and role of a man, has committed and carried out cruel murders, and it is said, has led the simple people to believe through seduction and deceit that she was sent from God. And I mean, that attack on gender and clothing, are you sort of surprised by the fact that the greater crime is not that she was sent from God? That comes second, but how she's dressed?
- [17:37]
Afua Hirsch
There are so many things about the accusations that I find really ironic because it's almost reminiscent of what Jesus faced in the New Testament with the old guards who kind of regarded his unconventional ways as a threat to the established order. And these men are obsessed with these rules and, and traditions that are actually meaningless when it comes to spiritual relevance. That actually the more important thing is how you conduct yourself and your sense of divine purpose. And the English are determined to go all the way with these allegations. They're not just going to have her quietly executed. They want to prove she's a fake and a heretic. And for that to be done openly and recorded so that her condemnation has the kind of full credibility of, of a sense of due process.
- [18:27]
Peter Frankopan
Well, you know, one of our other series we covered Stalin and the importance of show trials. When you do the show trials, you need to have good legal grounds to get someone and to say, well, Joan was our enemy is not good enough. You need to find specific legal grounds to be able to attack. And that line in Deuteronomy that we quoted in the first episode about how it not being lawful for a woman to wear men's clothes is the kind of primary line of attack that the English judges go for. And I think there's no question from the beginning what the verdict is going to be. And so it's quite hard to prove that someone isn't speaking on behalf of God or doesn't have divine protection. So a lot of effort goes into clothing. And again, we're recording this not too long after the President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy was attacked viscerally for not wearing a suit in the White House. And in fact, then President Trump attending the Pope's funeral in the wrong color suit, which is a breach of kind of all the expectations. So what people wear can be used as a tool of attack if you don't like someone.
- [19:24]
Afua Hirsch
I just read the charges that are assembled under canon law by the English. This woman, utterly disregarding what is honourable in the female sex, breaking the bounds of modesty and forgetting all feminine decency, has disgracefully put on the clothing of the male sex a shocking and vile monstrosity. And what is more, her presumption went so far that she dared to do, say and disseminate many things beyond and contrary to the Catholic faith and injurious to the articles of its orthodox belief. You know, as I was reading that, actually a random fact just sprung to my mind that in the courts of England and Wales, women lawyers, women barristers, were not allowed to wear trousers in Court until 1992 because it was regarded as improper and breaking the bounds of modesty and feminine decency for female advocates to wear trousers. I mean, it's so revealing because I don't think anyone in 1992 would have argued that trousers are purely male clothing. So you can just imagine in the medieval era what it was like for Joan to be accused of this and how much scrutiny and disapproval she was facing. And it is kind of ironic, given, you know, the magnitude of the things that she did, that there's this fixation on, on what she was wearing.
- [20:40]
Peter Frankopan
So Cauchon and eight clerics begin to put their case together and agents are sent to Domremy, Joan's village, to collect testimony, which means gather any dirt that you can throw at Joan and her family. Court officials are appointed, including a specialist in canon law who will oversee the interrogation of Joan. And once again, Alfred, Joan doesn't even have control of her own body.
- [21:03]
Afua Hirsch
There's still this sense of entitlement when it comes to those who are holding her in captivity. And on this occasion, the Duke of Bedford's W is charged with overseeing an examination to determine Joan's virginity. So this is the umpteenth time that she's had her body examined in the most intimate way to see essentially whether her hymen is intact. And at this point, actually, it's interesting that some of the women who are married to the men who are most invested in having Joan convicted of heresy are actually a little slower to condemn her. They also had limited influence in this system. And at last, Cauchon thinks he has on his side everything ready to try her. So on the morning of 21st February, 1431, Joan is brought to face the court for the first time. Cauchon is determined to control proceedings. This will be a show trial, and it's his show. But right from the beginning. You should Never underestimate Joan.
- [22:02]
Peter Frankopan
21St of February, 1431. Rouen. The girl is a heretic, Cauchon thinks to himself as he finds his seat in the royal council chamber. And an insolent one at that. He nods towards one of the more junior clerics. He's finally ready for the witness. After a few more moments, she walks carefully into the chamber, pale and thin. It's the first time that she's seen daylight in weeks. She looks up. Her eyes widen. There are more than 40 men here, dressed in flowing white robes and wearing large crosses. They are all around her, every gaze trained only on her. Joan closes her eyes, whispers a small prayer. Then she takes a seat, straightening her back as she does so. Before the questioning can begin, Cauchon explains that Joan must take an oath. One of the clerics stands up and hands her a Bible. She recoils. I don't know what you wish to ask me, she says. Perhaps you might ask me things I can't tell you. You will tell us the truth. Koshal stands back. This is a court of law. You will swear to tell the truth about the things we ask you that concern the faith and all the other things that you know. Joan. Shakespeare. Her head. I will speak about my parents. I will speak about my journey. But I will never speak about my discussions with my creator. I will never reveal what I have spoken about with God. Kill me if you wish. I will not do it. The men around her shift in their seats, robes rustling. Their frowns deepen as Joan refuses to take the oath Again. Again and again. How dare this upstart girl defy them? And yet, what could they do? How can you force someone to take an oath? Finally, Joan kneels before Couchon, the Bible in her right hand. I swear to tell the truth about all matters regarding the Catholic faith. For today, they must be content with that.
- [24:18]
Afua Hirsch
All the careful preparations Koshawa and his clerics have made. The first act of the trial leaves him banging his head against the brick wall of Joan's utter determination not to bow to these men. And what I find so powerful about it is it doesn't even feel like a calculated performance. It feels as if she's just being authentic to her story and her experience. It's not that she's trying to frustrate them. She's just not willing to tell them things she feels are private parts of her revelation that she has been commanded by God not to share. And that must just add to their frustration that they can't even paint it as a kind of scheming, manipulative ruse. It just seems so genuine and it's powerful as a result.
- [25:01]
Peter Frankopan
Quite right, too. I mean, she's uneducated and illiterate, and these are some of the most educated, most connected, ambitious men in France. But you would expect that they would be able to outwit her rather than the other way around. I mean, what I don't know is how she'd been able to articulate her messages from God to be so powerful in the first place, to be able to explain that she was getting these messages. But I suppose the desire to make a showcase of her and to prove her wrong in law comes off the rails quite quickly. And I wonder whether Joan, sitting in that courtroom alone, very young, she's now turned 19, but whether she knows that she's going to be found guilty, or whether this is going to be an honest hearing where she might be able to explain and convince people through the force of her own argument. But she knows the English want to burn her, but it doesn't seem to bother her. So that certainty of her faith, it's pretty impressive.
- [25:52]
Afua Hirsch
I mean, the fact that she's refusing to say the oath. This is not somebody who's uncomfortable with swearing on a Bible or evidencing belief in Christianity. That's at the core of who she is. She refuses to say the Lord's Prayer when they ask her to prove she knows it. I mean, there's probably no one at this time who knows the Lord's Prayer better than this young woman. But she is following her own value system, not the ones they're trying to impose on her. And when she doesn't want to answer a question, and I love this, she goes, move on. And it just feels like a boss move.
- [26:25]
Peter Frankopan
I think also at the time, the importance of patriarchies, but also of age, you know, to be a young woman, she gets asked to say the oath again. And she says, I made an oath yesterday. Why do I have to do it again today?
- [26:36]
Afua Hirsch
I feel really ambivalent about this. Cause it's so fascinating. But if she hadn't been put on trial, we would never have had such a detailed account of what the voices were to her. So I Feel grateful that we have that, but it's so sad that it had to be under these circumstances. But it feels as if she speaks pretty openly about her experience, and this is how we get a deeper understanding of how she experienced it. In the direction of the village church came a voice. It alarms her, but then she hears it again and again and again. And then the voice delivers her mission. Her voice appears to her again at court at Chinon. And you remember the scene where the king hid himself and they pretended that another noble was the king to see if she could spot him. And indeed she did. She was able to pick the real king out of the crowd, something that wowed the audience and was one of the first signs to them that she really did have some kind of divine guide. Sometimes she speaks of a voice, sometimes she describes hearing several voices. So she's really willing to share what that's like for her. But that doesn't mean she's willing to answer all their questions. Peter.
- [27:51]
Peter Frankopan
No, she still stonewalls questions she doesn't want to answer. For example, she gets asked whether she's been told by the voice to wear men's clothes. The courts say that she attempts to blame nobody else and insists she had no choice but. But to do what God asks of her. But then they also record that she changed her answer often, and any minor inconsistency gets flagged up by the court as proof of something. But the next session, Jonah's asked when she last heard the voices. Today and three times yesterday, she replies, and the voices tell her to answer boldly and that God will help her. And that's a line she keeps saying again and again, that God is going to help her, that God is going to save her. So she turns to Cauchon and says.
- [28:32]
C
You say that you are my judge. Take care what you do, for in truth, I am sent by God. And you put yourself in great danger.
- [28:42]
Afua Hirsch
Imagine the impact on Cauchan. I think, like most of the men who first encounter Joan, he's massively underestimated her. And this single mindedness, this belief in her conviction, this sense in her own moral superiority, that she, she's been sent by God and he is in the way must have really unsettled him. And then there's the effect on her, because what Cauchon and his men are subjecting her to is almost a form of torture in itself, you know, and everyone's had that experience. When you try to explain something, that's a very deeply held personal thought or idea or belief and someone looks at you with a kind of skepticism or doesn't really receive it in the way you hoped. It can really knock your confidence. This is that on set. Steroids. And it just goes on and on. And of course, the clerics zoom in on the voices. She admits to hearing not just voices in general, but the specific voices of certain saints, St. Catherine and St. Margaret. And not just hearing them, but she admits that she saw them as well, and Saint Michel too.
- [29:50]
C
I saw them with my bodily eyes just as well as I see you. And when they left me, I wept and truly wished they had taken me with them.
- [30:00]
Peter Frankopan
So Joan is questioned in court for six days with her interrogators jumping from talking about the voices to her fighting. She insists that she's ever killed anybody. Back to the voices, to men's clothing, on and on and on and round and round and round, just trying to break her. And finally, Cauchon says that they're done. She's taken back to her cell. Her feet are chained back to the block of wood. She's exhausted and almost certainly in ill health. But still, they're not done with Joan, the maid.
- [30:54]
Afua Hirsch
Joan is given no rest. Kushan is determined to get even more out of her. He wants to be able to say that no stone has been left unturned in proving this heretic's guilt. And in particular, they want to know about the sign. What was the sign sent by God to show to Charles?
- [31:14]
Peter Frankopan
There are nine more sessions of intensive questioning by Cauchon and the other clerics, and Joan is hectored again and again by eight men who crowd into her cell. Tell us. Tell us, they say. And finally she tells them. She Sundays, after Easter 1429, an angel brings the king at Chinon a crown of pure gold unlike anything ever seen on earth. Joan can see the heavenly being escorted by a host of other angels, some with wings, some with crowns, including St. Margaret and St. Catherine. But the rest of the court cannot. Sire, here is your sign, Joan tells the king. The angel announces that the crown signifies the king will have his France if he gives Joan an army. The angel gives the crown to the Archbishop of Reims, who hands it to the king. And why you? Because using a simple maid to defeat the enemies of the king pleases God. Now, that's the first mention of a golden crown. She's never mentioned it before, and neither has Charles and nor has the Archbishop of Reims. So maybe this is a crack in her story. But, Aphrod, this is just the sign of someone who's been broken by poor Health by persistent questioning and by sheer fear, isn't it?
- [32:28]
Afua Hirsch
We really know now how using excessive interrogation and torture can break a person. I mean, I actually became a lawyer during the era of the War on terror, when these techniques being used against people suspected of being involved in 911 and terrorist groups were really starting to be challenged legally, not just because they were a violation of rights, but also because the quality of the evidence that you obtain from someone under torture is so unreliable. I think it really feels like that here that she is starting to give them what they want to hear because they keep demanding it. And that's not an accident, because what they want is for her to say something self incriminating that they can seize upon. And until this point, she's stuck to the story, as is true to her. And that story has been quite difficult for them to pin a heresy charge on. But mentioning things like a Golden Crown are starting to get her into hot water. So it's no surprise that at this point she's starting to crack. Those involved believe it's the most rigorous trial ever seen in English France. So even by the standards of the time, it's a lot.
- [33:40]
Peter Frankopan
I mean, the thing is, it's not really a trial. The aim is not to find out the truth. The aim is to seal a verdict. I mean, ironically, all but eight of the 131 clerics involved are French. Although as we've been speaking through the series, what French really means is up in the air, you know, whether you're supporting the Armannacs or the Burgundians. So. So it's not that it's one side trying their own, that the point is to find Joan as guilty as possible. And the fact that it takes so long is because I think it's almost the other way around. She doesn't give them enough material with which to figuratively order her hanging. So the claims that it's rigorous and that there's an attempt to try and find out the truth is I think, all hidden by the fact that when someone claims to have messages from God and to be devout and is devout, then it's quite difficult to have them found guilty. My question is, why is she such a threat? I mean, why bother going through a trial? Why not just have her killed anyway? Why go to the trouble of the interrogations and breaking her in the way that they obviously do?
- [34:40]
Afua Hirsch
I think it's a huge compliment. You know, there are other people who claim to hear voices at this time in France. There's a shepherd boy who was taken up by Charles, not long after Joan's capture. And he was captured by the English. And they didn't bother putting him on trial, they just drowned him. I don't even know his name. I don't think history has remembered him. History has remembered Joan because of the scale of the threat that she presented to the English, because of the size of her following, because of the credibility she had at the time, because the King of France believed in her enough to arm her and send her into battle. And the idea that a woman was capable of having this relationship with God, of leading men, of being a force in the culture and the religion, is completely antithetical to what the Church was wanted. And they felt like it had to be decisively put down. Of course, it was such a self defeating idea. It backfired so spectacularly. Because what they really did was give us this incredible written record of her side of the story that has survived for posterity. But at the time, they thought that this was the best way to kind of put an end to her legitimacy once and for all.
- [35:48]
Peter Frankopan
And of course you mentioned afwa, the physical injuries from trying to escape and being held in cells with men. Presumably one can take sexual assaults as for granted. For all these reasons, intellectual trauma and the mental trauma of the trial, Joan's health is really suffering. It's taken a turn for the worse and she's convinced she's dying. Cauchon therefore urges her to admit her guilt. He tells her that she should submit to the authority of the Church. But Joan is genuinely baffled. How can the word of God, as told directly to her, be trumped by the authority of the Church? It's God that Joan answers to. But the bottom line is if Joan repents, she can be saved from the flames and her soul will be saved. If she doesn't, she'll be convicted of heresy and handed over to the secular authorities to be burned at the stake. You must repent or you will burn. Cauchon tells her.
- [36:44]
C
I will say nothing more to you about this. And if I saw the fire, I would say all that I am saying to you now and would not act differently. You will not do what you are saying against me without evil seizing upon you, body and soul.
- [37:01]
Afua Hirsch
I think at this point, Joan is starting to feel the fear. The reality of being burned is starting to loom larger on her horizon. But the point is that she still believes God is going to save her from that fate. So terrifying as it is, she doesn't accept that that will be her ending. And her health starts to improve. So Cauchon, having been defeated in that approach, tries a different one. He now threatens to torture Joan in the name of God.
- [37:31]
C
In truth, if you were to have me torn limb from limb and my soul separated from my body, I still won't tell you anything more. And if I did tell you anything else about this afterwards, I would always say that you had made me say it by force.
- [37:49]
Peter Frankopan
Finally, on the 23rd of May, 1431, exactly a year after her capture, she's called before the court for one final time and her guilt of 12 charges is read out. The voices are invented. Or if she really heard them, they are diabolical. So she's damned either way. The angel bringing the crown is fabricated. A pernicious falsehood, it said, that diminishes the dignity of angels. Her insistence on wearing men's clothes is against nature, against God, against the authority of the Church. It's blasphemy and idolatry. Even leaving home without her parents permission is breaking God's command to honor your father and your mother. And above all, she has withdrawn herself from the judgment of God's church on earth. So as a result, she is apostate. So they have thrown the kitchen sink at her.
- [38:40]
Afua Hirsch
When the cleric finishes reading the verdict, he begs Joan to submit. Redeem your body from death and save your soul. He tells her it's not too late, and frustrating their wishes till the end. Joan still refuses. No, she says. Never. The bishop Cauchon says, very well. The trial is done. Tomorrow you will be sentenced. And there is only one sentence Joan, and she knows it at this point, can expect to receive, and that is to be condemned to be burned at the stake.
- [39:10]
Peter Frankopan
Overnight, a scaffold is erected in a cemetery in the centre of Rouen, and from first light, crowds pack in to witness what will happen to the maid. A cart brings Joan from the castle, and she's hurried up onto the scaffold to face her judges. The crowd straining to get a look at her. A teenager about to be sentenced to a horrific end.
- [39:34]
Afua Hirsch
May 24, 1431. The Cemetery by Abbe St. Rohan de Rouen. Joan stands on the platform of the scaffold, feeling the wood rough under her feet. She tries not to look out at the graves. Instead, she stares at the crowd standing immediately below. She thinks she recognizes some of the people from Reims. She smiles at the sad irony. People who celebrated her during Charles's coronation are here now, hoping for her death. Why is she so hated? The clerics stand in a row in front of the crowd. Look at them. She thinks, wearing their white and red holy robes, claiming to be men of peace. Yet here they are, conspiring to murder me. They taunt me. They bring me me here to sentence me, to see my final resting place in the days before they kill me. Then Joan has an idea. Why not take me to Rome? She calls out to the crowd. Rome? The cleric asks. Let my deeds and words be sent to Rome, to our Holy Father, the Pope. No. A voice replies from behind him. It's Cushan. He steps forward and continues. You will see. Submit here to the authority of the Holy Mother Church. Joan closes her eyes as Cauchon begins to read out her sentence. Suddenly she feels her heart falter. She keeps her eyes shut as Cauchon's voice goes on, trying to take her mind away from this place. But she cannot banish the terrible images that suddenly crowd in on her. Of the flames, the pain, the smell of. Oh God. She starts to shake. She opens her mouth, ready to speak, then immediately closes it. But the deep well of her courage is finally dry. She shouts, I'll do it. I'll do it. I submit. Cauchon looks up from the paper he is reading and pauses, waiting to see if she retracts. The anguish on her face says it all. Finally, they have broken her. Very well. We will take your confession. Joan nods and replies dutifully, I, Joan, a wretched sinner, do recognize the fetters of error binding me, and by God's grace, do confess that I have grievously sinned. The crowd start jeering and throwing small rocks at her. She is given a quill and a piece of paper. She signs and is rushed back to her damp, fair self. Joan, Kushan says, we release you from the bonds of excommunication that enchained you. Yet because you have rashly sinned, we condemn you in a final sentence to a salutary penance of perpetual imprisonment. Joan looks around. She wonders, am I to stay here forever?
- [42:32]
Peter Frankopan
It's amazing, the reprieve, you know, she's been so strong right until the end. But then at the final stage, she blinks. But I don't think it's a confession of guilt. I think it's a submission, which is a slightly different thing. But do you think that the churchmen want to save her? Do you think that was their plan all the way through?
- [42:51]
Afua Hirsch
Afwa, I do think. And again, Luc Besson's film the messenger really goes in on this. That even Couchon, who has such an agenda to convict and get rid of this problem that he sees Joan as representing. They are still a little bit spooked by her. There's no denying what she's accomplished and how unlikely it is and how much she believes in the voices she's hearing and how pious a character she is. I wonder if they wanted to get rid of her, but were a little bit unsettled by being the person to have condemned her. Because after all, these are Christians. And Joan perhaps has been channeling this kind of Jesus adjacent idea that she's this lowly person who comes bearing the will of God only to be persecuted by the authorities who have completely strayed from the message. So I do wonder if they were relieved to have a way out of actually being the ones to burn her at the stake at this point in the story.
- [43:53]
Peter Frankopan
Yeah. And I think as far as Joan's confession goes, of admitting to having sinned, you know, it's not a difficult one for a Christian to do, you know, because everybody sins. So it's not something specific, but it's enough to get the execution stopped. So Joan is taken back to her cell. Her head is shaved to remove her male haircut, and she's given women's clothes to put on, but she at least still has her life.
- [44:17]
Afua Hirsch
Three days later, Bishop Cauchon receives a message. He must go to the castle. And when he arrives, he cannot believe his eyes. There is Joan. Joan, who he thought had repented in men's clothing.
- [44:32]
Peter Frankopan
Why? He asks her. And she's agitated. She says, I didn't know I'd taken an oath. I'm living amongst men. You promised I could go to mass. And that promise hasn't been kept. And so he asks her, have you heard the voices again of St Margaret and St Catherine since you submitted on the scaffold? And Joan is in obvious distress. And she nods. If I said God had not sent me, she says, I'd be damned because I was sent from God. What I said on the scaffold was out of fear of the flames.
- [44:59]
Afua Hirsch
So says Cochan. The voices, the golden crown. It's all true, Joan says, just as I said in the trial, it's all true. And so in that she has basically retracted her retraction, she has undone her confession and reconfessed her guilt in the eyes of the church. Why would she do that, Peter?
- [45:24]
Peter Frankopan
It's a very good question why she'd have done that. I suppose the conviction that she should stand up for her beliefs and that she's been bullied into submitting, not about confessing her sins, but in that she's given Cauchon what he wants. But whatever it is that's made her change her mind, it has sealed her fate. Because Joan now in the eyes of Cauchon and the judges that he had around him, the clerics, Joan is not just a heretic, she's a relapsed heretic. So the Church has got no choice but to abandon her. And so that night in the middle of Rouen, a pyre is prepared. That's next time on Legacy.
- [46:17]
Afua Hirsch
Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com Survey.
- [46:36]
Peter Frankopan
From.
- [46:37]
Afua Hirsch
Wondery and Goal Hanger this is the third episode in our series about Joan of Arc.
- [46:42]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history, but our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.
- [47:00]
Afua Hirsch
We've used many sources for this series, including Helen Castor's biography, Joan of Arc A History Legacy. Legacy is hosted by me, AFWA Hirsch and ME, Peter Frankapan, scene writing by Shayan Matalucco. Joan of Arc is voiced by Jacqueline Valsez.
- [47:16]
Peter Frankopan
For Goal Hanger. Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. The associate producer is Robin Scott Elliot. Our production managers are Izzy Reed and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [47:31]
Afua Hirsch
Legacy is Sounding, designed and engineered by Will Farmer. Music supervision is by Scott Velasquez for Brisson Sync. Our producer for Wondry is Emanuela Quinorti Francis and our senior managing producer is Rachel Sidley.
- [47:44]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.