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- [00:00]
Afwa Hirsch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:08]
Peter Frankenpan
Hello and welcome to the second episode of our series on Marie Antoinette. We left you at the end of the last episode with Marie Antoinette, at the age of 18, about to become Queen of France as her husband Louis, still only a teenager, takes the throne. It's an immense challenge in a troubled country where hatred of all things Austrian simmers beneath the surface and it won't need much to stir it up. And Marie Antoinette is Austrian, and that's.
- [00:37]
Afwa Hirsch
Not the only challenge she faces. Marie Antoinette and Louis have been married for four years and the marriage is still not consummated. She's under massive pressure to produce an heir. It's seen as her job to make it happen, and her fault if it doesn't. But France is still in love with Marie Antoinette, at least for now.
- [01:06]
Peter Frankenpan
From Wandery and Goal Hanger, I'm Peter Frankerpan. I'm Afwa Hash and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:28]
Afwa Hirsch
This is Marie Antoinette, episode two, Queen of Scandal.
- [01:52]
Peter Frankenpan
So Louis XVI is crowned King of France on 11 June 1774, and much of the attention is on his beautiful young wife. But she's so overwhelmed by the occasion, she ends up having a timeout. Can you imagine that, Afwa, if you were being crowned, that you need to have a quiet moment on your own to take it all in?
- [02:12]
Afwa Hirsch
I'm quite impressed because these coronations sound incredibly boring and very long winded. So to be that focused and involved that you actually get carried away with the emotion really shows that she's connecting on a emotional level with what's happening here.
- [02:27]
Peter Frankenpan
She is very sensitive, right?
- [02:28]
Afwa Hirsch
As a person, She's a sensitive person. She tends to be quite impulsive. When her carriage knocks down a five year old orphan, she takes the child into her care. The biographer Antonia Fraser describes it all as sweet but desperately unreal. She did. Even though these are tokenistic gestures, given her privilege and the poverty so many people were living in, she did have that sense of empathy when she saw suffering up close. One of the issues is that she rarely got close enough to see it.
- [02:55]
Peter Frankenpan
And I suppose one can be very cynical. I was going to say it's a nice gesture, it doesn't really change much, but on the other hand, at least she does something rather than the usual way of just passing on through. But France needs a lot more than just kindness because the country's in a tough financial situation and there's a succession of poor harvests. And when there are poor harvests, prices tend to go up, often because there's less food, but also because markets behave erratically. When the price goes up, people want to hoard to push prices even more. And so when the price of bread goes up, it's not surprising there are problems.
- [03:27]
Afwa Hirsch
The price of bread is a national obsession at this point, with good reason, because for lower income people, especially in rural areas, but also in the urban environments like Paris, 50% of income is being spent on bread. So when that price goes up, people really feel it. And they do more than feel it, they riot. There are riots in the spring and summer of 17, 1975, the so called flower wars, which sees violence across France. And crucially, and it's so often the case, isn't it, Peter? It's both the grievance and the protest, but also the way the state responds to that grievance. And in this case, troops are sent in, which does nothing to ingratiate the regime with the ordinary people.
- [04:08]
Peter Frankenpan
There's violence all across France. The troops are sent in to put down rebellions.
- [04:12]
Afwa Hirsch
Some claim this is when Marie Antoinette said, let them eat cake. There's no evidence that she did say that. But this is a key period in the shift in public affection away from.
- [04:24]
Peter Frankenpan
The queen, as well as the fact that people are suffering in their costs of living and the prices of their daily food. Literally. There are stories already started to spread about Marie Antoinette and the way in which she spends big. Let's start on clothes. I mean, that amazing film we mentioned last episode, Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette in 2006, where Mariano is a kind of punk queen, loves her fashion, but fashion and clothing are such an important part of the court.
- [04:50]
Afwa Hirsch
Versailles is the European court at this point. Louis XIV, the great grandfather of our king, Louis XVI, had moved the court to Versailles back in 1682 and turned it into a vast pleasure palace. And it's become inextricably bound up with his legacy as the Sun King. He rules by divine right from this great palace and spends lavishly. And that is the precedent that was set. This is where she feels quite contemporary, actually, as an influencer or one of these privileged women who uses her wealth to really set trends in fashion and build huge followings. And she's expected to look good as the queen, but she really embraces that part of her role. I was just actually gonna say just as we were on the way here. I get these Vogue updates in my email.
- [05:44]
Peter Frankenpan
Why don't I get those?
- [05:45]
Afwa Hirsch
I don't know, Peter. You're subscribing to all the wrong things.
- [05:47]
Peter Frankenpan
All this talk I might subscribe to Vogue.
- [05:49]
Afwa Hirsch
The Vogue update I got this week was about the 2006 Sofia Coppola Marie Antoinette film and how it spurred a whole fashion revolution and how the reimagined nostalgia for the style of Marie Antoinette at Versailles is still having an impact in the fashion world. And it's based on Marie Antoinette's real penchant for fashion. So she had a designer called Rose Bertin, the first great name in French fashion before Chanel and Dior, who was her dressmaker. They would meet twice a week to discuss for hours what the next design should be. They had a book with all the designs and some of Marie Antoinette's handwritten notes, her commentary and thoughts, and the things she wanted have survived. You can actually see them. And these designs were vast, showy gowns adorned with ribbons, silk and. And jewels. She said to never wear anything twice. And there are claims she has around 300 dresses a year made. I just want to say this could come across wrong, but I do relate to the idea that as a woman who's on display, you are getting judged for how you dress, whether you like it or not. You know, you don't choose that. It's just a fact. And if you don't do that, if you don't dress well, if you don't create an aesthetic, you get criticized and penalized that much more if you're the queen of France. So Marie Antoinette is wearing all this silk, all these diamonds, all these ribbons. And then in 1781, she and her designer Bertin changed tack and she styled in a much more simple dress made of muslin, more of the kind of innocent dress of a romanticized country maid. And this causes uproar. At first, it's completely against expectation for the queen to be wearing something so simple. It's also got real economic consequences for silk, which is a huge French industry. But it catches on, and soon cotton muslin, this more simple style of dressing, begins to be in fashion across the courts of Europe. That's where in 1783, the Viger Le Brun famous portrait of her wearing this cotton muslin dress. And that painting is actually really interesting because there's been subsequent scholarship that's traced Marie Antoinette's forerunner status as this model of changing taste in textiles, the shift towards cotton, which then had real implications for the supply of cotton, which until then had mainly come from India. But at this moment, when slavery and colonialism was expanding in the New World, it's been directly linked to an increase in cotton production by enslaved Africans in the Americas. So I think it's always important to locate Marie Antoinette in this global world, because the things that she did that may have just pleased her aesthetically or spoken, spoken to, her sense of style had the power to shift tastes across Europe. And shifting tastes across Europe had real consequences for enslaved people, for indigenous people, for the global economy, because of France's role as a great and expanding colonial power.
- [08:57]
Peter Frankenpan
And a reminder for listeners that despite what we might think about American War of Independence, a large driver was to preserve the slave trade in the colonies. So having larger markets and new opportunities, despite the fact, we think that the freedom, the liberty, the egality that comes through to France, too, 15 years later in the United States, that axis of production of materials, being able to find new markets in France and elsewhere is really important in those cotton boosts. And in fact, this year, in 2025, the VA holding exhibition called Marie Antoinette Style shaped by the most fashionable queen in history. But it's expensive.
- [09:33]
Afwa Hirsch
It really is. Let's talk about how expensive.
- [09:35]
Peter Frankenpan
So, in 1776, her dress allowance is about 150,000 livres, which is about £2 million today. And just to put that into perspective, an average tradesman in Paris pays an annual rent of 300 livres. So the scale of spending is absolutely astronomical. And Marie Antoinette buys a pair of diamond bracelets for 400,000 livres. So that's about £7 million. That's maybe slightly out of touch, but having said that, the younger brother of the king, the Duc d'artois, runs up debts of 21 million livres. That's around about £350 million in today's money. And he waits for his big brother to bail him out. So the scale of spending is just off the charts. So if you're at the top, you think that the system is always going to protect you. The ways in which people live. It's as though there's no tomorrow. So the king buys himself a new shuttle because it's closer where he likes to hunt. He gives the Petit Trianon, which is a beautiful palace, to Marie Antoinette, which used to be where previous king's official mistresses lived. Marie starts to build a model village that she can play with when it's that sort of mini me in the grounds of Versailles.
- [10:45]
Afwa Hirsch
And that's actually really important to le Petit Trianon it's on the grounds of Versailles, but it's its own little estate. And it's an escape for her from the formality and protocol of Versailles. This is a household she controls, and she can run as she wants to and have her friends and turn into an environment that she feels is more nurturing for her and her children. It's not just jewels and extensive clothes now, it's real estate. They are spending big time. You don't actually need much imagination to think about how people who are struggling to feed their families must feel about this level of expenditure by the family that lead their country.
- [11:19]
Peter Frankenpan
There's also retinues. There are 500 people in Marie Antoinette's household alone. That costs about 4 million livres. The king's household, obviously larger. His brothers have staff of 500 people, his sisters, his unmarried aunts and so on, and no one seems to think that it's excessive. And then behind all the glamour and the beauty and the scale of Versailles and the spending of money, there are also challenges too.
- [11:45]
Afwa Hirsch
I think the two things that stand out for me that are very different from contemporary super wealthy lifestyles are, one, it's very public. People can get in. I mean, market women have this right of access to Versailles, where they come and they let the royal family know what they think, which is remarkable. So there is much more access from ordinary people to those at the very top. And the second thing is they are not spending their money on cleanliness. I don't know why. I'm sure they could afford it, but the palace is filthy. They have all these animals. Everyone's got loads of dogs. This is very French. And there are cats that roam around, but there are also parakeets, monkeys. There's a menagerie with an elephant. And there just doesn't seem to be a big emphasis on cleaning and hygiene.
- [12:31]
Peter Frankenpan
It's all about performance. And therefore, it's about how do you stay ahead of gossip. The more people talk about Marie Antoinette, the more powerful she becomes. Ironically, there are vicious pamphlets, there are gossip sheets that always talk about Marie Antoinette. Every little word she says, every gesture, every outfit. And all of those things are about how power gets exerted. So it's difficult and painful on the one hand, but Marie Antoinette is the spider at the center of this web.
- [12:56]
Afwa Hirsch
And she's not responding to this scrutiny and all of this gossip and rumor and attention by trying to hide or shrink herself, she's leaning into it. She's making friends who attract more attention. The Princess de Lamballe, who's a Very loyal friend to her through her life. But also the Comtesse de Polignac, who's a bit of a controversial figure, a real life loving young woman. There's the very handsome Count Fersen of Sweden.
- [13:23]
Peter Frankenpan
He's moderately handsome.
- [13:24]
Afwa Hirsch
He's Swedish. Oh, look at you. A little bit Clooney, describing him as completely gorgeous. Okay. I'm sure he was nothing on you, Peter.
- [13:33]
Peter Frankenpan
I didn't mean me. I just thought if you've got a pick of the bunch, maybe she could have done.
- [13:37]
Afwa Hirsch
Everybody said he was handsome at the time. Okay. And he was also a dashing count, which is basically every fairy tale spodder for the hero. And there is a credible theory that he became more than just.
- [13:51]
Peter Frankenpan
We'll come to that.
- [13:51]
Afwa Hirsch
A flirtatious interest. We will come to that. And it's interesting that when Les Liaisons Dangereuse is published in 1782, Dangerous Liaisons, it's taken by some as a critique, a rather harsh critique of the loose morals at court. But Marie Antoinette actually loves it.
- [14:10]
Peter Frankenpan
It's manipulation, it's love affairs, it's living life, the full. It's deceit, all of those things. And it's all gossip. So it all feels quite close to the bone. She's busy hosting parties, but in particular, she becomes interested in gambling.
- [14:24]
Afwa Hirsch
Afu more than interested. She develops a real gambling habit. And the costs mount. The whispers are beginning to grow louder. And actually, it looks like she was definitely hooked on gambling, possibly seriously addicted. It's something that she's not in control of and that is noticed. And as a result, she's not necessarily making wise decisions about the amount she's spending on her habit.
- [14:50]
Peter Frankenpan
And maybe that's a means of escape. Maybe it's the adrenaline buzz of occasionally winning. But those start to inspire the gossip and the rumor mills to turn even faster. And it's not just people outside. So one of the king's aunts starts to call her Lotricienne, which is a nickname that catches on. And it's not just because she's an outsider and a foreigner means the Austrian. What does austri chien mean to people who are listening to it?
- [15:14]
Afwa Hirsch
It has a real similarity to the word chien, which means bitch. So that's convenient for those who wish to insult her. Collation of two things that have problematic connotations and the fact that she embodies in the popular imagination both of them is not helping her. And once that floodgate is open, helped by her real problem with gambling and excessive spending, it's then easier for people to make other outrageous claims that aren't true, that she's decorated the Trianon with gold and diamonds all over the walls. That these women that she's close to, Lamballe and Polignac, are not just friends, they're lesbian lovers. She's having orgies with them. And these rumours are published in pamphlets that are widely read in France, but importantly at court. So she's aware of the things people are saying about her and so is everyone else at Versailles.
- [16:06]
Peter Frankenpan
And although she and her marriage to Louis is to seal a new allian between Austria and France, the two countries have been big rivals for many decades. So that speaks, I think, to trying to find a way to undermine her. The fact she's an outsider and that she's not good enough. But that drives the spiral as well.
- [16:23]
Afwa Hirsch
I know from people close to me who've struggled to get pregnant that one of the hardest things that can happen if you're trying to conceive is when somebody else close to you conceives quite easily and gives birth to a healthy child while you're struggling. And that's exactly what happens to her. Because while she hasn't even consummated her marriage, now her husband's brother not only gets his wife pregnant, but they give birth to a son. And Marie Antoinette takes it with grace. She watches the birth, she's happy for them. But there's absolutely no doubt that the pressure on her is mounting more than ever with that birth.
- [16:58]
Peter Frankenpan
So Maria Theresa's tearing her hair out. Unlike her daughter's hair, it's a bit less of it.
- [17:03]
Afwa Hirsch
Not the three foot poof. It's time, as far as her mother is concerned, to escalate the troubleshooting. So she sends in Marie Antoinette's big brother to have the talk. May 24, 1777. Versailles, France. Marie Antoinette looks sideways at her brother as they stroll along the well kept paths of the Petit Trianon. She's pleased he's here. After all, they haven't seen each other for seven years. But it's not been the sentimental reunion she'd expected. The day before, he told her, you surround yourself with people of questionable morals and think of nothing but pleasure. He clearly thinks she's overindulgent, making his point by traveling incognito as a lowly count, then refusing to stay at the palace, insisting instead on taking simple lodgings in the town. As they're walking, it's obvious something is on his mind, but he seems awkward about saying it. Eventually, he clears his throat. Maria Antonia we need to discuss the marriage bed. Marie Antoinette feels heat rushing to her cheeks. Ignoring her embarrassment, he goes on. Do you sincerely respond to the affection the king shows you? Do you look for opportunities? At first, she feels humiliation, but actually this isn't fair. The lack of progress is not for want of trying on my part. If Louis took less pleasure in hunting or wrestling with his brothers, perhaps he'd have some left for me. Joseph looks thoughtful. He thought that the problem lay with his sister, but it seems that the Dauphin could also do with some guidance. Perhaps I could speak to the king, man to man, find some common ground. I understand the demands of being an authority. It seems agonizingly embarrassing, the idea of her brother talking to her husband about their physical relationship. But maybe it will help. Something has to change. Do you know his latest hobby is making locks? He spends more time in the forge than in our bed. Then I shall put it in terms he understands. For every lock, one must find a key. As the double entendre dawns on him, Joseph stops short and blushes. For a moment, the silence hangs heavily between sister and brother. Then their eyes meet and they dissolve into fits of helpless laughter. How embarrassing, Peter, for your brother to have to come and interview you about your sex life and whether you and your husband understand what's involved. I'm just cringing slightly.
- [20:12]
Peter Frankenpan
Odd to think you can get to that age without having had it explained particularly. They'd been married to this point for seven years and they're sharing a bed, but neither of them seem to be particularly curious about that side of things.
- [20:25]
Afwa Hirsch
Well, it's interesting, because anyone who watches period dramas knows that the usual story is the shy girl who's married off and no one's ever explained anything about sex to her. And then this man, like, mounts her on their wedding night and it's all very traumatic. But this is a completely different story, where it seems like if anyone was a bit more clued and aware of what needed to be done, it's Marie Antoinette. And if anyone was the really reticent, embarrassed, avoidant one, it's actually Louis.
- [20:52]
Peter Frankenpan
In this case, her brother thinks that they're both absolute fruitcakes. He calls them two complete blunders. Somebody has to explain what happens, and you'd think that'd be entrusted to someone at the court. And the traditional way for men would have been to have someone show them how to do it, and they'd be paid as a courtesan or prostitutes. But this doesn't seem to have happened to Louis either, because he's not interested or because he's so sheltered.
- [21:15]
Afwa Hirsch
In fairness to Louis, he's quite consistent. He's not interested in other women either. And it's actually the custom for a French king to take a mistress. And it's not just sexual preference, although it's partly that. But a mistress is an important figure at court. She helps redistribute favor and patronage and access to the king so that it's not all dependent on the figure of the wife. And in this case, the fact that he's uninterested in sex is not only causing problems for his marriage, but for the court as a whole. So it seems like he's just not that interested in sex. And, you know, some people aren't.
- [21:45]
Peter Frankenpan
But she gets the blame, right? Of course she does. She's the one who doesn't protect because.
- [21:48]
Afwa Hirsch
It'S always a woman's fault.
- [21:49]
Peter Frankenpan
And at the same time, those rumors that have swirled around her, you know, she takes Comtesse de Polignac and some of her household to see the sun rise. And then a pamphlet describes it as a lesbian orgy because people are trying to work out if the purpose of this marriage is to produce an heir, why is it not happening?
- [22:04]
Afwa Hirsch
There are lots of rumors about her having lesbian orgies and lovers. But the one thing that does seem to have some credibility is the that she had an affair with Count Fersen. And by now she's a young woman. She's probably not had sex. She's certainly not having sex with her husband. It's quite believable that a good looking outsider to the court who.
- [22:22]
Peter Frankenpan
You keep saying that good looking.
- [22:24]
Afwa Hirsch
Oh my God. What is your problem with Fersen? I'm Team Fersen. He was hot. Just accept it, Peter, that they did have some kind of affair. And you know what? I'm happy for her. It's not healthy to go through your whole life without experiencing intimacy or rewarding sexual encounters. And even when they do finally manage to consummate their marriage, this is not an auspicious start for a very fulfilling sex life.
- [22:46]
Peter Frankenpan
The letters of Fersen suggest that something did happen between them. And he does feature regularly in her story. He's devoted to her, but it's probably only a brief sexual encounter. But we do know that eventually Marie Antoinette and Louis do work out what's what and how to do what they need to do. And a few days after Marie Antoinette has finally had sex with her husband, she writes to her mother to tell her the news. And relations between Marie Antoinette and Louis start, perhaps not surprisingly, she goes easy on the gambling. They start to spend more time together. She puts on plays for him, taking part herself. And Louis is maybe not besotted, but he's suddenly more interested than he has been.
- [23:24]
Afwa Hirsch
A year after that, Marie Antoinette can finally write the letter to her mother that she's been waiting for. Well, they've both been waiting for since the day she left Austria. She's now pregnant and it's eight years since she left her home to marry Louis and she's still only 22. So finally things are going according to plan.
- [23:44]
Peter Frankenpan
It's the news that everybody's been waiting for. But the pamphleteers go to town straight away, speculating that maybe the father is the Duke of Artois, the King's better looking younger brother. That gap that Louis and Marie Antoinette have allowed to be created gets very quickly filled by other people. There are real challenges around what the succession might look like and speculation. Although we think of the French Revolution, sort of a sudden uprising, all these seeds have quite deep roots.
- [24:10]
Afwa Hirsch
We have to actually get through the birth before we can get to that. PETER and the birth of a baby at Versailles is a big deal. This is not about Marie Antoinette. This is the business of the Crown.
- [24:29]
Peter Frankenpan
December 19, 1778. The palace of Versailles, France. Squeezing into the grand apartment processor, Lamballe marvels at the lines of people waiting outside the King's cabinet. Since the Queen's labor pains were announced in the early hours, people haven't stopped arriving, desperate to witness the royal birth. The Princess is now superintendent of the Queen's household and she's been at Mariannette's side since the labor began. Exercising her right to announce the news, she's sent messengers to recall the King's immediate family to be present at the event. In the small cabinet room, the air is heavy with vinegar, essences and body odor. The Queen is lying on a narrow bed, her face racked with pain. Taking her place beside the accouer, the Princess de Lamballe sees Madame de Compagne and the Comtesse de Noailles jostling for position among the crowd. People are standing on chairs and tables to get a better look. Then the accoucheur announces the royal baby is coming. As the Queen's cries rise above the noise, the audience presses forward excitedly. The heat feels oppressive. Then, as the wail of a new born splits the air, cheers ring out. A midwife whisks the baby out of the room and the King follows. Waves of cheering and applause can be heard rippling through the palace as the throng focuses on celebrating the royal birth. Princess de Lamballe turns to look at Marie Antoinette. To her horror, she sees the queen's face is crimson, her body convulsive. Then she slumps back on the pillows, seemingly lifeless. Jumping to her feet, the princess screams out, the Queen, my God, give her air. For God's sake, move away and give her air. In a panic, the aquushal pushes away the crowd, his voice booming. Clear the room. Open the windows. Somebody fetch the king. Well, so the akusha is a man who announces the birth. And I think the purpose of the ritual is both to be intrusive, to show that the heir is working for France and belongs to France. It's also to show that the monarch and his wife have a different way of giving birth to normal people. But it's also to make sure that the child doesn't get swapped out or that something happens to them. So there's a whole thing that's blended in there.
- [27:00]
Afwa Hirsch
And it's interesting that it's a girl, which obviously is never the ideal when you're under pressure to produce an heir. But there's part of Marie Antoinette that's happy it's a girl, because a boy would be immediately whisked away and raised as the future dauphin. Whereas a girl, Marie Antoinette can actually have her to herself and spend time with her and be more of a mother to her. And she actually wants to breastfeed the baby herself, which is all the rage. This new idea from Rousseau and other intellectuals that people should revert to this more natural trust a man to have a good idea of breastfeeding. Imagine needing Rousseau to tell women that it's a good idea to breastfeed. But breastfeeding is frowned upon, especially for the aristocracy, because, as any new mother knows, it's also a natural contraceptive. Not watertight, but it does reduce the risk of reconceiving. It's nature's way of letting your body rest while you're recovering from childbirth. And nobody wants Marie Antoinette to rest from childbirth. They want her to get pregnant again as soon as possible.
- [27:58]
Peter Frankenpan
The baby's name is Marie Therese, after Marie Antoinette's mother, born in December 1778. Two years later, Maria Toilette's mother, Maria Theresa, does die. She's aged 63. As a strong woman, she'd ruled an empire and provided the heirs to ensure the empire would keep going long after her death, as well as producing marriage ties all over Europe.
- [28:20]
Afwa Hirsch
She's a remarkable woman. Incredible power and fortitude. It's interesting that she's not better remembered, or that she hasn't inspired more period dramas and novels and movies because she really was standout figure of the 18th century and really unique in her position and her productivity and her death is felt all over Europe and obviously especially at Versailles. It takes over a week for the news to reach Marie Antoinette and she writes to her brother Joseph that she is devastated by this most frightful misfortune. I cannot stop crying as I write to you, she says. And you can imagine for her, her mother is a larger than life figure and it must have felt like she was invincible in some way. So for her to die would have felt like a huge change.
- [29:07]
Peter Frankenpan
I'm sure that's right. As it happens, she's very close to her brother Joseph, that the problem with that web of dynastic ties is that those are all grist to the gossip mill too. So when he comes to visit Marie Antoinette, an unofficial visit, rumors start to swirl that Marie Antoinette is funneling funds from the French treasury to prop up her brother and to give him capabilities. So that network of families that can provide some form of stability also can be vet vulnerability, risk when people want to see problems. But what Marianne really needs is a son.
- [29:39]
Afwa Hirsch
And she produces one. February 1781, she's pregnant again. On 22 October, she goes into labour. A few lessons have been learned. The windows are actually kept open. This time there are fewer people in the room, although still many. And she gives birth. She has produced a little boy. Her husband Louis says, madame, you have fulfilled our wishes and those of France. You are the mother of a dauphin. Cue huge celebrations in Versailles.
- [30:05]
Peter Frankenpan
That's right. The baby is taken by the royal governors and carried through Versailles on a chair to huge acclaim. And later, Marie Antoinette is reported to have said to Louis, I'm behaving very well. I'm not asking you for anything. It's quite a sort of pithy one line, self put down.
- [30:20]
Afwa Hirsch
I think it really reveals how aware she is of the reputation she's developing and how critical people are of her. And this, she hopes, will counter a lot of the negativity. She later writes to a friend that the birth of her, her first son, was the happiest and most important event.
- [30:36]
Peter Frankenpan
For me, both as a mother but also as a political power. Broke. I mean, it's peak Marie Antoinette. We're in late 1781. France has an heir. The young royals sit comfortably on the throne. And Marie Antoinette has seen off all of the haters, the gossip mills and the scandal she's Supposedly adored by all. And she's the mother of a future king of France.
- [30:58]
Afwa Hirsch
Things are looking up. Easter Sunday 1785. Marie Antoinette gives birth to a second son, Louis Joseph. The spare to follow the heir. As everyone knows, all royals want one and life in the palace is good. Except unknown to her, a scandal is already brewing. One that is not of her making, but that will nonetheless prove a devastating blow to her reputation.
- [31:44]
Peter Frankenpan
So this is the famous diamond necklace of feathers. So picture the scene. We're in the grove of Venus in the palace gardens of Versailles and it's the dead of night. Marie Antoinette has her face hidden by the hood of a dark cloak and she's approached by a man. This is Cardinal Rohan. He bows and she says, you may now hope the past is forgotten. And then disappears into the night. The cardinal stares after her and these are exactly the words he'd wanted to hear from the queen.
- [32:11]
Afwa Hirsch
Except that was not actually the queen. It was a prostitute who had been dressed to look like the queen and specifically planted there in the grove of Venus palace gardens to dupe the cardinal. Because this is all an elaborate scam.
- [32:28]
Peter Frankenpan
So it's quite a complicated one. So tell us the story about a con woman who has worked out how to get into the Queen's good books, the cardinal's good books. And the key is to get a really expensive, valuable necklace from Charles Boehmer.
- [32:42]
Afwa Hirsch
What this con woman, Jeanne Lamoth is saying, I'm a friend of the Queen's, which was a lie. If you, Cardinal Rohan, who's out of favour with the queen, that's true, Want to get back into her good books, you should acquire this necklace for her, give it to her, and then she will pay for it. And his judgment is so impaired by his desperation to re ingratiate himself at Versailles that he thinks this sounds like a great idea and decides to go along with it.
- [33:11]
Peter Frankenpan
So Valor finds a lookalike, a young prostitute from Paris called Nicole d'oliva, who dresses up in a Marie Antoinette style white muslin gown and hidden behind that hooded cloak. And after the nighttime meeting, the cardinal is hooked. Yes, he'll get the necklace on behalf of the Queen. Burma the jeweller is overjoyed. This necklace, at 2 million livres, is worth about £25 million, something like that. So it's a big piece of kit. And hands over the necklace to the Cardinal in February 1785. A knockdown price at a bit of a discount. Why not? But with an IOU saying that the Queen is going to pay, Valois tells the Cardinal, give it to me. I'll go and get the cash from the Queen. The Cardinal hands it over to Valois, who then vanishes with her accomplices as well as the necklace.
- [33:58]
Afwa Hirsch
The Cardinal, thinking that the deal has been done and he's now back in the Queen's good books, heads for court, expecting to see the Queen looking happy, wearing her necklace, pleased with him. He waits. And he waits. Meanwhile, the jeweller, who has handed over this 2 million livre super bling with an IOU is waiting to get paid to convert that IOU into the money he's been promised. The Queen will pay and no money arrives, so he starts to send letters to Marie Antoinette demanding his pay.
- [34:36]
Peter Frankenpan
And eventually Marin Toinette realises something's going on and she tells the king. On the 15th of August, as he's preparing to say Mass in his full priestly robes, the Cardinal gets arrested by the kingsguard in the hall of Mirrors in Versailles and he's locked up in the Bastille. And slowly this story unravels and a year later, he's brought in front of the court. He's found innocent, but it's obvious to everybody that he is a gullible fool. Valois, in the meantime, is found guilty. She's imprisoned, but not before being publicly stripped, flogged and branded with a hot iron marked V for voleurs or thief. But it's a real scandal.
- [35:16]
Afwa Hirsch
And as you can imagine, with a case that is crazier than fiction, the public is lapping every twist and turn up in the story, because of course, it's playing out publicly, not least in the courts. And the thing that's crazy about it is that the Queen actually did nothing wrong. As soon as she knew something had happened behind her back, she told the King about it and was pretty transparent. But it's the suggestion that is the kind of thing that she would do, that it's plausible that she would be strolling in the gardens of Venus in a dark cloak in the middle of the night, having strange meetings with men, that she would be acquiring these super excessive blinging necklaces just because of a whim or a mood. It's so damaging to her reputation, even though it's not actually based on anything she did.
- [36:10]
Peter Frankenpan
It's ironic, isn't it, because all the things that she could have been accused for, all the pamphleteers have tried to smear her, but this one that really sticks, is something that she didn't have any responsibility for. But Marie Antoinette's popularity has taken a real battering. So she goes to the opera in Paris and she gets hissed. She's portrayed as being frivolous of spending money while France is starving, of being manipulative and cunning and that she's steering her husband to help Austria all the time. And then where that money is all going is on sort of crazy things, like a pretend village built around her palace in Petit Rianon, where the cows are given names like Blanchette and brunette, while in real villages, life is getting worse and worse.
- [36:51]
Afwa Hirsch
None of this is helped, by the way, by the final crazy twist in this true story, which is that Jeanne Lamotte, Jeanne Valois, the con woman who was at the centre of this, who was flogged and imprisoned, manages to escape from prison and runs off to England, where she then starts fueling these rumours. She's in huge demand now. She's a celebrity true crime heroine and she's publishing all these stories that feed into Marie Antoinette, the woman who has orgies, the lesbian, the profligate spender. And it all sticks a little too easily.
- [37:27]
Peter Frankenpan
But that sense of crisis is really spreading. There's no money for bread, while Marie Antoinette, the Austrian lottricienne, spends and spends French money on toy cows and on indulging herself. Temperatures are reaching boiling point and the.
- [37:42]
Afwa Hirsch
King is not helping either. He just can't cope with this kind of pressure and crisis. France is heading towards bankruptcy and his response is eating too much, drinking too much, falling asleep in meetings. He's losing credibility even among his peers. And the nobility actually block the King's attempts to reform the tax system currently weighted in favor of the nobility. So even attempts to create reform that might alleviate things for the workers, for the peasants, for the poor, are not going anywhere. And the King's failure to really show leadership or take the bull by the horns in this situation is only making things worse. June 1789. Hamor de la Reine, Versailles. Kneeling by the vegetable patch, Marie Antoinette pushes her jeweled fingers into the soft earth and pulls up a tangle of carrots, shaking them free of soil. As the country's problems increase, the Petit Trianon's peaceful gardens have become her refuge. She joins her favourite, Duchesse de Polignac, who's sitting in the sun and shows off her harvest. These should shave a few leaves from the household budget. The Duchess laughs, but gesturing at the cottages, the mill and the lighthouse, she says, how many carrots until they've paid for all this? The Queen returns her smile, but inside she feels a stab of guilt. Leaving the compound together, they head towards the palace ahead they see a group of women crowding the path, dirty shawls draped across their shoulders. Poissard peasant women who sell fish in the town markets. As they get closer, one calls out, here she comes, Madame Deficit. The words are like a slap in the face to Marie Antoinette. She knows that's what they call her, blaming her for the country's financial hardships. Turning to face the Poissard she adopted adopts an imperious tone. As you are in my home, I will thank you to be more courteous. Before Marie Antoinette can continue walking, she feels a bony hand grip her arm. The woman leans close, her breath a sour mixture of fish and wine. From a mouthful of rotten teeth comes a voice filled with contempt. Oh, we know where you live. We paid for it, so you should trust tremble, tyrant. Jerking her arm free, Marie Antoinette hurries on. Suddenly feeling exposed. She realizes in panic that if the country turns against her, she has nowhere else to hide.
- [40:18]
Peter Frankenpan
So those storm clouds are gathering quite quickly. The idea of people being rude to the Queen's face is really something that's pretty stunning. And here in the 1780s, the situation economically is getting worse and worse. Louis decides to call the Estates Generale, the nearest thing that France has to a parliament made up of three estates. That's the nobility, the church and the commoners. It hasn't sat for 174 years. And he does that to try to pass some of the responsibility and therefore some of the blame to other people and not just to put onto himself. So he's having a difficult time. The economy's changing rapidly, but it was also a terrible time, personally, for the King and the Queen.
- [40:58]
Afwa Hirsch
It really is a hard time, personally. In June 1787, just short of her first birthday, their fourth child, Sophie, dies. And then their second child, their eldest son. The seven year old Dauphin, is increasingly sickly as the political crisis worsens. And on 4 June 1789, Louis records in his journal, death of my son at 1 in the morning. Marie Antoinette is there at his bedside as he breathes his last. She's grieving the loss of her child. And the revolution is little more than a month away.
- [41:36]
Peter Frankenpan
Her descent into the personal hell of her final years on earth has begun. That's next time on Legacy.
- [42:09]
Afwa Hirsch
Follow Legacy on the Wondery App, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcast. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from wondery and goal hanger this is the second episode in our series about Marie Antoinette.
- [42:37]
Peter Frankenpan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research.
- [42:55]
Afwa Hirsch
We've used many sources for this series, including Marie Antoinette, the Journey by Antonia Fraser, the French Revolution, Daily Life by James James M. Anderson, the palace of Versailles and Life in Revolutionary France, edited by Met Harder and Jennifer Ngiri Hoyer. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwa Hirsch.
- [43:16]
Peter Frankenpan
And me, Peter Frankenpen.
- [43:18]
Afwa Hirsch
Scene writing by Jack McKay for Goal Hanger.
- [43:21]
Peter Frankenpan
Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is Associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [43:35]
Afwa Hirsch
Legacy is sound engineered and designed by Alex Port Felix.
- [43:39]
Peter Frankenpan
Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Fritz N Sync.
- [43:42]
Afwa Hirsch
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quenorte Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [43:48]
Peter Frankenpan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis Dream.