Legacy Podcast Episode 4:

The History of Wellness and Wellbeing — Shamans, Oracles and Gurus

Hosts: Peter Frankopan & Afua Hirsch
Date: January 27, 2026

Episode Overview

In this captivating episode, Peter Frankopan and Afua Hirsch delve into the rich and complex history of wellness and wellbeing—exploring humanity’s relationship with shamans, oracles, and gurus across ancient and modern cultures. From Mesopotamian exorcists to contemporary Instagram “shamans,” the discussion traces how supernatural and holistic beliefs have shaped healing, mental health, and spirituality, while scrutinizing their legacy and reemergence in today’s wellness culture.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Timeless Struggle for Wellbeing (00:00–02:36)

• The hosts open with personal reflections on sleep routines, modern distractions, and the inherent tension between today’s “hyperconnected” life and the need for holistic wellness.
• Notable quote:
  "Maybe the challenges of modern life are so excessive that that's the reason people are reaching for more supernatural and magical solutions."
  — Afua Hirsch (02:05)

2. Ancient Roots: Shamans as Healers & Exorcists (03:09–09:51)

• Frankopan recounts the Mesopotamian approach to illness—as the work of supernatural intruders like demons or ghosts, featuring the “ashipu” (healer/exorcist).
• Shamans acted as holistic therapists: diagnosing not just physical but social and spiritual causes for maladies, employing rituals, herbs, smoke, and behavioral changes.
• Notable moment:
  "It's about trying to create a whole ecosystem around what has happened, how to fix it, why has it happened, and how it's not going to happen again."
  — Peter Frankopan (05:56–06:10)

3. The Persistence of Supernatural Beliefs (06:34–09:51)

• Hirsch discusses the ongoing influence of supernatural explanations for illness—even within the Church of England, where every diocese still has an exorcist.
• The discussion challenges the notion that such beliefs are relegated only to “exotic” or non-Western cultures.
• Notable quote:
  "One of the things I found fascinating is that the Church of England still has an exorcist for every single diocese ... there's the legacy of those ideas even in England today."
  — Afua Hirsch (06:46)

4. Shamanism—From Sacred Role to Modern Appropriation (09:51–11:42)

• Shamans once held regulated, respected status; their knowledge, rituals, and plant medicines derived from generations of communal authority.
• Hirsch cautions against contemporary “self-appointed” shamans who commercialize and strip these practices of cultural context, with potentially dangerous consequences.
• Notable quote:
  "People are basically self-appointing shamans—they are self-identifying as shamans, … charging $1,000 an hour on Instagram for sessions ... but they're stripping it of these millennia of history..."
  — Afua Hirsch (10:17)

5. The Theatrics and Psychology of the Shamanic Experience (11:42–15:07)

• Archaeological evidence from places like the Minusinsk Basin in Siberia reveals ritual objects (drums, masks, mirrors) pointing to the performance element of shamanic healing.
• Discussion of how rhythms, chanting, and psychoactive substances (cannabis, mushrooms, etc.) altered consciousness for both shamans and their communities.
• Frankopan describes the “theater” and catharsis of such rituals, fostering emotional release and community bonds.
• Notable quote:
  "There's some kind of catharsis, and there's a huge emotional release because there's a sensation that you're being protected by someone and that person's part of the community."
  — Peter Frankopan (14:40)

6. Personal Encounters & Cultural Appropriation (15:07–20:05)

• Afua shares experiences participating in West African communal rituals (without substances), underscoring their power and cultural significance.
• Both hosts reflect on the problematic tourism of shamanic retreats and the importance of respecting traditions of which one is not a part.
• Memorable exchange:
  "I can promise you I'm never going to go to Costa Rica to spend $10,000 to discover myself, but good luck to people who can…"
  — Peter Frankopan (18:46)

7. Purification Rituals Ancient and Modern (20:05–21:49)

• Comparison of ancient Egyptian priestly purification—a regimen of bathing, shaving, scrubbing with sodium carbonate, oil application, and affirmations—to modern luxury spa rituals.
• Hirsch draws the parallel humorously: "Basically they're just trying to replicate what ancient Egyptian priests were able to do four times a day. What a life."
  — Afua Hirsch (21:09)

8. The Enduring Allure of Oracles (23:41–29:43)

• Shift to oracles, especially in ancient Greece (Delphi), as sources of ambiguous, often cryptic guidance—in some ways preserving their usefulness and mystique.
• Hirsch shares a contemporary anecdote of a well-known film director claiming to have a gift of foresight—once hidden, now embraced with cultural shifts.
• Discussion about supernatural capacities attributed to animals (dogs sensing danger, disease).
• Examination of how humans label the unknown as “supernatural,” when it might be natural phenomena beyond current understanding.
• Notable quote:
  "As humans, we've tended to describe things we don’t understand as supernatural or mysterious, whereas actually, they are often just evidence of our limited capacity..."
  — Afua Hirsch (26:41)

9. Oracles and Health—From Ancient Diagnosis to Modern Skepticism (27:27–31:21)

• Frankopan cites historical instances—like consulting Delphi during epidemics—to discern causes of disease or divine displeasure, with the Pythia offering enigmatic answers.
• Hosts discuss personal openness to astrology and psychics: Afua is receptive, noting an uncanny personal experience in Ghana ("every single one of those things turned out to be true", 30:28); Peter frames predicted school grades as his only “oracle” experience.

10. Oracles, Healing, and the Mind-Body Connection in World Traditions (33:10–34:33)

• Early Indian Vedic texts highlighted the union of spiritual order with healing; over 100 hymns address mental and physical health.
• Both hosts articulate how ancient societies valued not only physical, but also mental and emotional well-being—far earlier than often assumed today.

Most Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• "Maybe the challenges of modern life are so excessive that that's the reason people are reaching for more supernatural and magical solutions." — Afua Hirsch (02:05)
• "People are basically self-appointing shamans … charging $1,000 an hour on Instagram … but they're stripping it of these millennia of history..." — Afua Hirsch (10:17)
• "There's some kind of catharsis, and there's a huge emotional release because there's a sensation that you're being protected by someone and that person's part of the community." — Peter Frankopan (14:40)
• "Basically they're just trying to replicate what ancient Egyptian priests were able to do four times a day. What a life." — Afua Hirsch (21:09)
• "As humans, we've tended to describe things we don’t understand as supernatural or mysterious, whereas actually, they are often just evidence of our limited capacity..." — Afua Hirsch (26:41)
• "Every single one of those things turned out to be true, and I’ve never forgotten that." — Afua Hirsch (30:28)

Key Timestamps for Major Themes

• 02:05 – Why people seek supernatural solutions in modern life
• 03:50 – Mesopotamian shamanic healing and exorcism
• 06:34 – Contemporary exorcism in the Church of England
• 09:51 – Dangers of modern, unregulated “shamanism”
• 13:54 – The role of ritual, altered consciousness, and theater in shamanic performance
• 20:05 – Egyptian priestly purification compared to modern spas
• 23:41 – The oracle tradition: Delphi and modern parallels
• 26:41 – Porous boundaries between supernatural and “natural” knowledge
• 27:27 – Oracles diagnosing illness and societal calamity
• 30:28 – Afua’s personal psychic encounter in Ghana
• 33:10 – Oracles and healing in early Vedic India

Conclusion & Next Episode Tease

The episode closes with both hosts reflecting on the cyclical resurgence of ancient wellness knowledge—sometimes embraced for genuine restoration, other times cynically co-opted. They suggest that many modern wellness trends are, in fact, revivals of ancient, interconnected understandings of health in body, mind, and spirit. The next episode will focus on “women and healing,” exploring midwifery, witchcraft, and the powerful yet often persecuted roles women have played throughout history.

For further reflection, listeners are invited to share personal stories of encounters with oracles, healers, or the supernatural, and to consider the continued relevance—and risks—of ancient wisdom in the modern world.