Legacy Podcast: "The Rise of the Nazis | How Disaster Led to Catastrophe" (Episode 1)

Hosts: Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan
Date: November 25, 2025

Episode Overview

Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan launch a deep dive into the origins of Nazi power, exploring how seemingly marginal movements seize control during times of societal disaster. While the end of the story—genocide and global catastrophe—is familiar, the hosts focus on the origins: the chaos of post-World War I Germany, the compounding disasters of disease, economic ruin, loss, and how these created space for extremism. This first episode unpacks the profound effects of World War I's end, the Treaty of Versailles, societal trauma, and the fragile birth of the Weimar Republic. Disease and religion are introduced as surprising but significant factors in this volatile mix.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Stage: World War I and its Unexpected Consequences

• The End of War: Contrary to the assumption of gradual decline, Germany came close to victory in 1918, before a rapid collapse. The perception in Germany was not of defeat on the battlefield, but of sudden betrayal.

  • “By June [1918], German armies had driven deep into France, reaching the Marne again and threatening Paris.” — Afua Hirsch (08:57)

• Personal and Global Connections: Both hosts share family histories tied to the war. Afua’s German-Jewish great-grandfather fought and was decorated for Germany before fleeing the Nazis. Peter’s grandfather fought for the Austro-Hungarian Empire; both remark on the trauma and shifting allegiances spawned by the conflict.

  • “[My great grandfather] was a German Jew who at that time felt unquestionably German...and like so many other Jewish Germans, paid a huge price to fight for Germany.” — Afua Hirsch (02:46)
  • “The legacies of the First World War in central Eastern Europe were catastrophic for the creation of Yugoslavia, the creation of Czechoslovakia...” — Peter Frankopan (05:37)

2. Catastrophe Unleashed: Defeat, Disease, and Revolution

• Collapse at Home: The British blockade starved German civilians; by war’s end, bread queues, malnutrition, and hunger riots were common. The Spanish flu pandemic compounded the crisis, “burying them faster than we can count.” (16:08)

  • “[Spanish flu]...it's as if the plague itself has returned.” — Quoting a German army doctor (16:08)

• Revolution Spreads: Mutinies in the navy spark the formation of workers’ and soldiers’ councils. The resemblance to the Russian Revolution terrifies the old order, while offering hope to reformers and the marginalized.

  • “Germany is dissolving before our eyes.” — Quoting a journalist (18:22)

• Social Change: War democratizes society, especially for women; by 1918, 700,000 German women are employed in munitions, and radical solutions are suddenly possible.

  • “The war has made women indispensable in every sphere of life.” — Quoting Louise Sietz, 1917 (19:06)

3. The End of the Old Order: Abdication and Scapegoating

• The Fall of the Kaiser: Generals warn the Kaiser to abdicate; he flees and blames Jews for both his and Germany’s downfall, echoing centuries-old antisemitism.

  • “The Jews, he says, are to blame for all the misery in the world. I am convinced they are the cause of my country’s downfall.” — Afua Hirsch (23:18)

• Antisemitism Widespread: It is made clear such conspiracies were mainstream, not fringe, in postwar Europe—spanning the political spectrum from Churchill to Beatrice Webb.

  • “These kinds of prejudice were baked in.” — Peter Frankopan (23:55)

4. The Treaty of Versailles: Humiliation and Economic Ruin

• Treaty Imposed, Not Negotiated: The Allies exclude Germany from negotiations, impose harsh penalties, force a “war guilt” admission, and demand huge reparations.

  • “It’s not really a deal...Germany has [it] accepted by imposition rather than by negotiation.” — Afua Hirsch (40:31)
  • “The law is hard, but it is the law.” — Clemenceau (37:00)

• National Anger and Scapegoating: Germans of all classes feel betrayed and humiliated. The “stab in the back” myth—that Germany was not defeated on the battlefield but betrayed by internal enemies—takes hold.

  • “Our army stood undefeated in France; the Fatherland was stabbed in the back from behind in Berlin.” — Veterans pamphlet (42:43)

• Economic Chaos: Hyperinflation destroys savings and confidence; the middle class is reduced to poverty, as described vividly:

  • “Money flows like sand through our hands. We buy as soon as we're paid, because tomorrow money’s going to be worthless.” — Victor Klemperer (45:44)

5. Between Despair and Experimentation: The Weimar Republic

• A Republic Born of Defeat: The Weimar Republic is established, but from a foundation of humiliation, revolution, and economic burden, not visionary hope.

  • “The Weimar Republic is born at this moment in history out of not hope or vision, but out of defeat, revolution and humiliation.” — Afua Hirsch (43:46)

• Fragility and Violence: Early attempts to stabilize are beset by coup attempts from the right (Kapp Putsch) and rebellions from the left (Spartacists). Force, not consensus, secures the state.

  • “What saves the Republic was not its army...but a general strike...” — Peter Frankopan (44:31)
  • “The murder of Luxembourg and Liebknecht is the murder of German democracy.” — Quoting a Munich workers’ council (32:32)

• Societal Contradictions: Even amidst political collapse and poverty, Berlin becomes a cultural hub, with cabaret, art, and avant-garde experimentation thriving.

  • “Berlin is half in ruins, half in revelry. Out of hunger and despair, they create cabaret and satire.” — Quoting Dorothy Thompson (46:32)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Afua on Family History and Identity:

  • “My family don't feel a connection to Germany now because as Jews, they were then forced to flee because of this story, the rise of the Nazis.” (03:57)

• On the Treaty of Versailles:

  • “We are in no position to resume war. Our people are starving. Our defenses are broken. We must bow to force.” — Gustav Bauer, German successor to Scheidemann (40:45)

• On the Culture of Blame

  • “When things are not going well...instead of maybe taking some accountability or looking at the deeper reasons...he decides to blame someone else.” — Afua Hirsch (23:18)

• On the Weimar Era’s Contradictions:

  • “By the early 1920s, the Weimar Republic is utterly paradoxical, democratic, but very fragile, vibrant creatively but psychologically completely traumatized.” — Afua Hirsch (47:45)

• Reflections on Fragile Democracy:

  • “We defeated the putschists not with rifles, but with silence and with empty streets.” — Quote from Berlin worker (44:31)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 00:17 | Introduction to the rise of the Nazis (Peter, Afua) | | 02:16 | Afua shares family history connected to WWI | | 07:14 | War’s end and the sudden reversal of German fortunes | | 13:32 | Allied counteroffensives and the collapse of German morale | | 16:08 | The impact of Spanish flu and compounding disasters | | 18:22 | Revolution, mutinies, and societal upheaval | | 23:14 | Abdication and scapegoating of Jews (Kaiser’s reaction) | | 28:38 | Hyperinflation and the economic collapse of Germany | | 31:59 | Murder of Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht | | 35:10 | Paris Peace Conference and the Versailles settlement | | 39:37 | The specific terms of the Treaty and its consequences | | 42:43 | “Stab in the back” myth and the roots of Nazi grievance | | 44:31 | Kapp Putsch and the fragility of Weimar democracy | | 46:32 | Cultural explosion amid crisis; Berlin in the 1920s |

Tone and Language

The discussion is historically grounded, reflective, and often personal. The hosts combine clear, accessible explanations with candid, sometimes darkly humorous observations about power, prejudice, and the unpredictable consequences of disaster and defeat. Quotes from contemporary witnesses add immediacy and poignancy, while the hosts' own family stories underscore the human stakes.

Conclusion

Episode 1 of "The Rise of the Nazis" lays bare the chaotic conditions that made the rise of extremism possible in Germany. Hirsch and Frankopan highlight how defeat, disease, humiliation, and hyperinflation created a society desperate for answers and vulnerable to conspiratorial scapegoating. The groundwork is laid for a deeper exploration of how these wounds and myths paved the way for Hitler and the Nazis, which will be the subject of the next installment.

End of content summary. Ads and promotional sections have been omitted.