Legacy Podcast: "The Rise of the Nazis | How Disease and Religion Paved the Way for Evil" (Episode 2)

Hosts: Afua Hirsch & Peter Frankopan
Release Date: November 27, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of "Legacy" explores how the aftermath of the First World War, social crisis, disease, and cultural factors—notably pandemic disease and religion—set the stage for the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis in Germany. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan dig into new historical research that brings fresh perspectives to a well-examined period, questioning traditional narratives and surfacing underexplored connections.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Critical re-examination of the often-discussed rise of the Nazis, with a focus on less-studied drivers such as disease (Spanish flu) and shifts in religious belief.
• Drawing parallels between post-war trauma, economic collapse, and susceptibility to extremist movements.
• Presenting new academic research into voting patterns, pandemic impact, and religious dynamics in 1920s–30s Germany.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The First World War and Its Aftermath

• Resulting Instability: The Treaty of Versailles and other post-war settlements created a “swathe of states" and deepened grievances in both defeated and some “victorious” countries (01:00).
• Rise of Fascism Elsewhere: Discontent also fires fascism in places like Italy, laying broader European groundwork for extremism (01:22).

2. Germany’s Descent into Crisis

• Economic & Social Collapse: By 1923, hyperinflation, unemployment, and the occupation of the Ruhr by French & Belgian troops created fertile ground for extremist solutions (04:07).

  “The people’s pockets are empty, their hopes are exhausted. They look for saviors in every direction…” – Peter Frankopan quoting a Munich newspaper (04:28)

3. Hitler’s Early Years & The Beer Hall Putsch

• Obscure Beginnings: Hitler, a failed artist, becomes leader of a fringe party:

  “…an obscure right-wing party supported mainly by weirdos and misfits.” – Peter Frankopan (05:40)

• The Munich Beer Hall Putsch (1923):
  • Hitler and 600 followers attempt a coup; it quickly collapses (08:34–10:20).
  • The failed coup turns Hitler into a martyr figure.

  • "The accused was not in the dock, he was on the podium." – Afua Hirsch, quoting Munich press (11:10)

4. From Prison to Platform: Mein Kampf

• Lenient Treatment: Hitler’s time in prison (post-putsch) is almost comfortable; he gains notoriety (12:10).

• Writing Mein Kampf: Becomes a manifesto of Hitler’s worldview, blending personal grievance with antisemitic ideology (15:37–17:16).

  "All propaganda must be popular, and its intellectual level must be adjusted to the most limited intelligence." – Peter Frankopan, quoting Hitler (19:22)

• Publishing & Reception:
  • Low early sales; regarded as poorly written; eventually becomes Nazi ‘scripture’ (20:51).

5. Economic Collapse and Electoral Success

• The Great Depression’s Role:
  • The economic crash of 1929 pushes millions into hardship, creating mass support for Nazis:

    “In Germany we live on soup and hope. But hope is vanishing.” – Diary of a factory worker, cited by Afua Hirsch (22:21)

  • Nazi vote share rockets from 2.6% (1928) to 37% (1932), making Hitler Chancellor in 1933 (23:38–25:06).

6. Consolidation of Nazi Power: The Reichstag Fire

• Use of Crisis to Seize Power:

  • The 1933 Reichstag Fire provides a pretext to suspend civil liberties and crush opposition (25:57–27:13).

    "This sounds so familiar, Peter. This is classic fascist playbook." – Afua Hirsch (27:05)

• Propaganda and Improvement:

  • Nazi rallies and improved economy help cement support, but beneath is repression and manipulation (28:33).

    "For the first time in years, I have steady wages... We have the Fuhrer to thank for this." – Factory worker testimonial, via Peter Frankopan (28:19)

7. Complexities of Popular Support

• Material Benefits vs. Ideology: Many Germans support the Nazis for national pride and economic improvement, not primarily out of antisemitism (28:33–29:56).
• Jewish Experience:
  • While many Germans are “bewitched,” Jews and other minorities flee as antisemitism intensifies (30:38).

    "Jewish people are becoming increasingly clear that this is no joke... It's very real." – Afua Hirsch (31:16)

8. Nazi Targeting of Other Minorities

• Broader Persecution: Roma, people of African descent, homosexuals, the disabled, and others are also targeted (32:21–33:12).

9. New Research: Disease and Voting Behavior

• The Spanish Flu’s Silent Legacy:
  • Extraordinary pandemic (1918-21) killed millions, striking young adults hardest (34:01–35:52).
  • Christian Bickel’s research: Higher Spanish flu mortality in German cities correlates with lower government spending (especially on schools) and higher Nazi vote share (~2%) a decade later.

    “Cities that had a higher than average death toll from the flu pandemic were the same cities that gave the Nazis up to 2 percentage points more votes in the 1930s…” – Afua Hirsch (38:03)

• Causation, Not Coincidence:
  • Poverty, trauma, and weakened communities create vulnerability to far-right solutions—even after controlling for other factors (39:13–40:41).

10. New Research: Religion and the Radical Right

• Religious Shallowness as Predictor:

  • Research by Sacha Becker and Hans Joachim: Areas with "shallow Christianity" (weak church roots, more alternative/pagan beliefs) had measurably higher Nazi support.

    "Shallow Christianity… was associated with a 3 to 4 percentage point increase in Nazi vote share." – Afua Hirsch (41:56)

  • Party rallies often adopt religious/messianic imagery.

    "We have no need for Christian virtue, for Adolf Hitler is our intercessor and our redeemer..." – Hitler Youth song, cited by Peter Frankopan (43:22)

  • Nazis in areas with lower church attendance, fewer children with Christian names.
  • Protestant areas more inclined to Nazism; Catholic areas initially less so (44:06).

• Contemporary Parallels:

  • Hirsch draws a line to modern wellness/vaccine-denial movements and their unexpected connections to the right (44:26–45:53).

11. Reflections on Contingency and Legacy

• What Ifs:

  • The discussion ends by pondering alternate histories—if there'd been no Spanish Flu, or if religious structures had been different, might things have changed? (45:53–46:28)

    "If there had been no Spanish flu, would the Nazis have been so dominant?..." – Peter Frankopan (45:53)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When he spoke, it was as though the words were flames. The crowd was swept along.” – Afua Hirsch, quoting journalist Conrad Haydn on Hitler (06:36)
• "He speaks with passion against Versailles, against the Republic and against the Jews… audiences respond with thunderous applause." – Peter Frankopan (06:53)
• "It's not so much Hitler who was on trial, but the Republic. And the Republic was found guilty." – Afua Hirsch (11:39)
• “Unemployment and hunger and despair and humiliation are all spreading." – Peter Frankopan (04:32)
• "He made the trains run on time. He allowed them to feel national pride." – Afua Hirsch (29:26)
• “That platform, that notoriety that Hitler gets, he uses to maximum effect.” – Peter Frankopan (12:57)
• "The research … shows that it's not just that everybody is voting the same way ... it's trying to look down to individual households, cities, to see who's most persuaded and why that message falls on such fertile ground." – Peter Frankopan (40:20)
• "There is a tradition of people with ... alternative spiritual and health beliefs supporting the far right. Fascinating." – Afua Hirsch (42:04)
• “There are cathedrals of light created by anti-aircraft searchlights.” – Peter Frankopan (43:05)

Important Timestamps

• 00:40–03:56: Introduction, legacy of WWI, post-Versailles Europe
• 04:07–11:39: Weimar crisis, Hitler’s rise, Beer Hall Putsch, trial, and imprisonment
• 15:37–20:51: Mein Kampf: writing, reception, themes
• 22:07–25:06: Nazi party’s electoral breakthrough and ascent to power
• 25:57–29:56: Reichstag fire, consolidation of power, propaganda & support
• 30:38–33:12: Impact on Jews and other minorities
• 34:01–40:41: Spanish flu, new research on disease and voting patterns
• 40:41–45:53: Religious patterns, superstition, and support for the Nazis; connection to present day
• 45:53–46:28: Reflections on "legacy" and alternate historical outcomes

Tone & Style

• The conversation is analytical yet accessible, peppered with moments of wry humor and earnest warnings about the echoes of history.
• The hosts share personal reflections and contemporary parallels, making the analysis both scholarly and pointedly relevant.

Summary Takeaways

• The episode demonstrates that Hitler's rise was not inevitable, but the product of intersecting traumas—war, economic collapse, pandemic, cultural and religious shifts—that undermined social cohesion and made radical promises seductive.
• New research suggests tangible links between mass death from disease and the turning of populations toward extreme, authoritarian solutions.
• Weak or "shallow" institutional religion also correlates with openness to far-right movements.
• The show closes with a call to acknowledge the deep and sometimes unexpected legacies of history, especially as their lessons resonate in contemporary times.

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