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- [00:00]
Afua Hirsch
Wondery plus subscribers can binge seasons of legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts hello, this is the third episode of our series on Winston Churchill. Last episode we ended with Churchill out in the cold, sitting on Parliament's back benches, warning of the Nazi threat and being ignored by Neville Chamberlain's government as they pursue their policy of appeasing Hitler.
- [00:37]
Peter Frankopan
He's not trusted by the Tories and he is despised by Labor. This is a complicated time in British politics. Labor are in opposition in a so called national government. The 1930s are a time of successive national governments formed in the wake of the economic disasters of the 1920s and 1930s. They're made up of Tories, Liberal and some Labour MPs who split from their parties, all led by Neville Chamberlain. But Churchill remains on the back benches. He's a vocal opponent to Chamberlain and to the policy of appeasement. He's a man on the outside, but his time is coming.
- [01:16]
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- [01:41]
Afua Hirsch
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- [01:46]
N/A
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- [02:56]
Peter Frankopan
From Wondery and Goalhanger. I'm Peter Frankenpan.
- [02:59]
Afua Hirsch
I'm Afua Hirsch.
- [03:00]
Peter Frankopan
And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [03:20]
Afua Hirsch
This is Churchill, episode three, His Finest Hour.
- [03:33]
Peter Frankopan
On 1st September 1939, German tanks roll over the Polish frontier and start advancing towards Warsaw. It's the act that begins the Second World War. Britain and France have promised to come to Poland's aid if the Germans invade. Two days later, at 11:15am, Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain broadcasts to the nation Britain is once again at war with Germany.
- [04:00]
Afua Hirsch
That same day, 3rd of September, Chamberlain brings Churchill back into government. Churchill's been proved right about the disaster of appeasement and people are impressed. Chamberlain makes him First Lord of the Admiralty, just as he had been at the start of the First World War. And Churchill hurries now to get the Navy ready for war. But he's already thinking about how Britain can go on the attack in April.
- [04:27]
Peter Frankopan
In April 1940, his first effort is a botched attempt to occupy Norway, which ends in a disastrous withdrawal. A month later, the Germans invade the Low Countries, so Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg, as well as France, with the blitzkrieg sweeping all before British and French forces are overwhelmed in just 40 days.
- [04:48]
Afua Hirsch
At the same time, in London, Chamberlain, a Conservative Prime Minister, is being forced out of government after labor refused to serve under him in a coalition that leaves a choice between Lord Halifax, a Chamberlain man and appeaser, or Churchill. Halifax blinked, said he couldn't be Prime Minister from the House of lords. So on 10 May 1940, Churchill fulfills a lifelong dream and becomes Prime Minister.
- [05:18]
Peter Frankopan
At that moment, it's all really about the culmination of Churchill's political life, I suppose, all of his life. And as he writes in his book the Second World War, I felt as if I were walking with destiny and that all my past life had been but a preparation for this hour and this trial.
- [05:35]
Afua Hirsch
And his wife Clemmy said later, when he became Prime Minister, he was quite sure that God had created him for that purpose. Even at bad moments, we never had a doubt of victory or a moment of despair.
- [05:51]
Peter Frankopan
I mean, Churchill's way with words is amazing and undeniable. I mean, this is a good to hear some of those words in his own mistakeable voice. Here's his first speech as Prime Minister to the House of Commons on 13 May 1940.
- [06:05]
Winston Churchill
I would say to the House, as I said to those who joined the government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. I have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind, where before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I will say it is to wage war by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us. To wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime that is our polity. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word, victory. Victory at all costs. Victory in spite of all terror. Victory however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.
- [07:10]
Afua Hirsch
It does feel when he says that his whole life up till this point has been preparation for this moment, it's easy to come up with that kind of hyperbole after the fact. In Churchill's case, it feels true, both in hindsight and in real time, that he had that sense of himself. And I think it comes across in the way that he speaks.
- [07:30]
Peter Frankopan
And, you know, it is a hair's breadth, though. I mean, lots of men who've been through the same educational processes. Churchill think it's their divine right to be Prime Minister, but almost none of them make it. But I think people wanted reassurance as someone who had experience, and Churchill had his detractors, of course, during the Second World War as well, but he had a lot of experience. And I think one of the challenges was that they had to. To be a brave turning around of British policy, to be able to cope with what was coming towards them. After Chamberlain declared war on Germany in September 1939, for the next three or four months, the only British planes that flew over Poland dropped leaflets rather than bombs. It was called the phoney war because although Britain was at war, there was no real military confrontation. Germany sweeping everything in front of it. And so there needed to be a change of policy.
- [08:16]
Afua Hirsch
The early months of the Second World War are pretty dark. The German invasion of the Low Countries and then France. This is blitzkrieg, lightning war. And as you said, Peter, the French and British armies are not responding to this invasion. They are just trying to preserve themselves at this point. And it's when France is on the brink of collapsing that it's beginning to look very sinister for Britain.
- [08:46]
Peter Frankopan
Churchill's been Prime Minister just for a few days, but already there are challenges and he assembles a national government. The support of Clement Attlee and Arthur Greenwood are absolutely crucial, but the Conservatives, the Tories, are very unsure of him and the public are unsure of him as well. And he himself is convinced that he's on the right course of action. And he's one of those men who's never been troubled by too much self doubt. But still, things seem to be unfolding at a breakneck pace across Europe and.
- [09:17]
Afua Hirsch
There'S nothing that I think has captured the British identity more than what happened in May 1940, when thousands of men are forced to retreat to the French coast and get bottled up in the port of Dunkirk. And, you know, you would think this is a disaster, it's a retreat, it's not a military victory. But the way in which 300,000 soldiers were carried home by this flotilla of small boats. I mean, everything that could be commandeered, weekend sailors, fishermen, military vessels, anything and everything available, it's gone to the root of the story Britain tells itself about this island nation with its underdog ability to rise from nothing and pull off the incredible. And Churchill is just so in the mix with that identity. There's nothing about that version of Britishness that hasn't always felt a little bit alienating to me because it's always been so bound up with imperialism and whiteness at the same time. But I'm also British, so some of these ideas have also filtered down to me. And this is one of the things that's interesting for me about Churchill's legacy. I think he personifies the way in which the inspiring things about that identity have been all wrapped up with the problematic things.
- [10:31]
Peter Frankopan
It's funny, Aphro, you know, I think about in a slightly different way, I was growing up, hearing about Dunkirk. I assumed it was a great success and a great triumph. And in a way, I think it reflects quite well on the kind of more generous way in which one can think about British identity, that one of our great moments in history, history is the point of maximum stress, the sort of resilience in the face of adversity. But definitely, as a historian, I find it more challenging about why is it we celebrate the bit where we were poorly prepared, hadn't understood the horrors of Nazism? The Holocaust is just about to happen. Were it not for the intervention of the Americans in the war, Britain would have been wiped off the map. That bit is a bit more of a question mark to me. But sometimes, you know, doing your bit can just mean getting in your boat and helping people get back home.
- [11:12]
Afua Hirsch
I think like all great patriotism, it requires a little Bit of selective memorializing. One of the things that Churchill most contributed to that memorializing is the speech he made on the 4th of June, 1940, which I would be shocked if anyone listening to this podcast is completely unfamiliar with the speech because it's become so iconic. So let's hear it.
- [11:36]
Winston Churchill
We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and oceans. We shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air. We shall defend our island, whatever the crafts may be. We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields and in the streets. We shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender. And if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it, were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British fleet, would carry on the struggle until, in God's good time, the new world, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
- [12:38]
Peter Frankopan
It goes down well, that speech. Labour MP and one of Churchill's friends, Josiah Wedgwood, writes to him and says, my dear Winston, that was worth a thousand guns and the speeches of a thousand years. I mean, I wonder whether we make too much of that as historians and writers about how somebody's words can really galvanize you to fight. For one thing, the German invasion of Britain had gone ahead and succeeded. Then we probably wouldn't be playing those speeches. But at the same time, it gives Churchill a lot of the credit for the bravery of all the servicemen and women who were having to do the fighting. But for sure, what Churchill did so well was to capture the mood and to set the direction of telling people what needed to happen next.
- [13:21]
Afua Hirsch
I love the potentially, I have to say, apocryphal addendum to that speech, much repeated since when Churchill supposedly muttered to a colleague and will fight them with the butt ends of broken beer bott, because that's bloody well all we've got. Much as this is regarded as a moment of huge pride, it's a bit of a disaster. Churchill is having to fight on two fronts. Some people in his own government believe it's time to think the unthinkable and actually consider peace talks giving in to Nazi demands. And this is where Churchill's total belligerence and unwillingness to compromise becomes a great strength, because he's not having it. And he means it when he says he will never surrender.
- [14:07]
N/A
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- [15:54]
Peter Frankopan
In May 1940, Halifax and Chamberlain pressed Churchill to allow an approach to Mussolini, the Italian dictator and ally of Hitler, to broker a peace deal, and they threatened to resign if he won't. It's a completely pivotal moment. Do you think they were bluffing afwa?
- [16:18]
Afua Hirsch
A less confident politician might have handled this really differently. And if Churchill's position had been undermined, the stakes may have been nothing less than Britain ending up surrendering to Germany, which obviously would have phenomenally changed the course of history. But this is Churchill we're talking about. He is stubborn, he's a clever and strategic politician, and he has spent his adult life learning to outwit people like Chamberlain and Halifax. So at this point, he gathers wider support from outside the Cabinet and just about manages to hang on to this position, although the situation is still precarious.
- [16:59]
Peter Frankopan
June 13, 1940 Tour Aerodrome, France Churchill clings to his seatbelt strap as his plane lands heavily on the Runway. Through its narrow window, he takes in the aerodrome's overgrown field pockmarked with bomb craters, French planes abandoned beside half destroyed hangars. With a small entourage, he crosses the airstrip to the terminal building, but is puzzled to find it deserted. Twelve hours earlier, French Prime Minister Paul Reynaud requested a meeting in France. It's the third time in a week that Churchill has made the risky Channel crossing. But with the German army blazing a trail across the country and Paris in their sights, this time the summons feels ominous. As they approach a hangar, two French Air Force officers jump to their feet. Confused, they explain that everyone has gone for lunch, but they could give them lift into town. Moments later, Churchill is squeezing himself into the back of a small car, jostling for space against his permanent secretary and chief military assistant. On the bumpy journey into Tours, he's shocked to see the road packed with people streaming south, suitcases lashed to the roofs of cars that have clearly once been riddled with machine gun fire. Donkey carts piled high with worldly possessions, all fleeing the unstoppable German invasion from the north. At the Hotel Grand Print, Churchill finally meets with Reynaud and his military leaders. In a faltering voice, Reynaud outlines his proposal, his drawn face creased with regret. Prime Minister Churchill. Our country's collapse can now be measured in hours rather than days. I suggest Britain should enter into peace negotiations with Hitler, and I beg you, allow France to do the same. For a moment, Churchill is speechless. Even his most pessimistic projections hadn't considered that Europe might fall virtually unopposed. Then he feels a tide of obstinacy flooding his body. But what about your reserves? Your plans for a counterattack? He watches the remaining blood drain from Reynaud's face as he stares back blankly, gripping the arms of his chair. Churchill glares into Reynaud's eyes, his words as much to reassure himself. As his ally, France cannot capitulate. She mustn't. I will not allow it. Yes, this is the darkest hour for the Allied cause. But only together will we prevail. Hitler and his army will fall if we are prepared to fight it out to the bitter end.
- [19:51]
Afua Hirsch
And on 22 June, France does surrender, it becomes clear that control of the air means the ability to stop a German invasion or not.
- [20:03]
Winston Churchill
I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilizing. Upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad sunlit uplands. But if we fail, than the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister and perhaps more protracted by the lights of perverted science.
- [21:08]
Afua Hirsch
This is the early years of radio, and Churchill has a masterly command of both the medium but also its potential to galvanize the nation. And it's working. Peter. His approval rating at this point is 88%, which is unimaginable in normal democratic peace time.
- [21:29]
Peter Frankopan
It is absolutely right that there is something so spectacularly brilliant about his writing skills and his oratory. And one of the key parts of leadership is to motivate, to inspire, to encourage. Why is he such a good speaker?
- [21:44]
Afua Hirsch
I actually have really strong views about this and I especially direct these to the Boris Johnsons of the world, these contemporary conservative men who idolize Churchill and I think also study him as if they can gain the alchemy of his speeches and replicate it in their own life. I think the reason Churchill's speeches were so rousing is because he believed in something. Now, I don't happen to agree with a lot of the things he believed in, but he had deeply held strong beliefs that were consistent over time. And in the face of unpopular political and public opinion, he stayed true to the things he believed in. And for all the people out there who are trying to study him and replicate it, go and get something you actually believe in and stand for and are willing to die for, and then you will be capable of speaking like that. And my personal belief is that none of this generation of conservative politicians who look up to Churchill can touch him because they don't actually stand for something. All they care about is power and getting elected and saying what they think people want to hear and you can genuinely tell the difference. That's probably the most pro Churchill thing you're ever going to hear me say.
- [22:56]
Peter Frankopan
I wondered too, without being drawn on the foibles of modern politicians, is that the scale of the crisis presumably is proportionate to the importance of the speech.
- [23:05]
Afua Hirsch
Of course you're right, and this was the moment of literal existential threat for Britain. But is there one single speech that a politician made during COVID that we all remember as a moment of searing that galvanized us and helped us to transcend the hardships of daily life? I can't think of a single one.
- [23:26]
Peter Frankopan
It's all to do with outcomes as well. So the reason we can't think of any speeches that capture the mood in Covid was partly because it turned out afterwards that all the people involved in positions of authority had been bending the rules and had been, you know, making mistakes the whole way through. These speeches sound prophetic and important because they are delivered at the absolute moment of maximum vulnerability. It sounds so much more important because the outcome of the war was what it was. That is, the problem with COVID is that if it had been differently, we would remember the speeches telling us to bang pots for the NHS and to think about how it was that we pulled together. It just turns out that the decisions being made weren't being made by people who took things perhaps as seriously as they should have done.
- [24:06]
Afua Hirsch
Those two things are connected. I think one of the reasons that British people saw the end of the Second World War as a victory and a good outcome, when clearly it had bankrupted Britain, led to millions of deaths around the world, including in Europe, including in Britain. It was seen as a victory in part because Britain had a leader who conditioned people over and over again to see it in those terms. That's why he is remembered as such an iconic leader. And, you know, I think that one of the reasons we don't remember any of those moments from COVID is because we didn't have any leaders who stood out in their ability to unify and galvanize and inspire. And I think we're living with that now. And one of my critiques, actually, is that Britain has this narrative about itself as on the right side of history because of the way Churchill framed the war and its outcome, which has made it very difficult for British people to now accept that there were times when Britain was not on the right side of history. So, without taking away anything from Britain's stance against the Nazis and the Axis powers, the fact that Britain made mistakes and took positions that were devastating for other people and countries and races is also part of the mix.
- [25:16]
Peter Frankopan
Those speeches, they land the time as well, I guess, because they're telling people what they need to hear. So a collection of his speeches called Into Battle, is published as early as 1941, and they sell by the truckload more than his previous books. It's also released in the US and in Canada with a different title, Blood, Sweat and Tears. But I think it's also important to remember that Churchill is not unassailable. Back home in the uk, there are still people who are concerned about whether he's the right man for the right job. And even as late as 1942, he has to beat off a no confidence vote in the Commons.
- [25:51]
Afua Hirsch
Churchill knows that Britain cannot continue in this war alone. He has to get America involved. So he begins a charm offensive on the US and in particular on its president, Franklin D. Roosevelt.
- [26:06]
Peter Frankopan
Remember, until now, the Americans had taken an isolationist stance on the Second World War. A European war should be fought by Europeans was the thinking. But on 7 December 1941, their hand is forced when Pearl Harbor, a US naval base in Hawaii, is attacked by the Japanese.
- [26:31]
Afua Hirsch
Christmas Day 1941. Washington, D.C. uSA in a large porcelain bathtub, Churchill reaches for a cigar, sending a surge of soapy water gushing to the floor. Since he got to the White House three days ago, boxes of his favorite brand have been arriving. Non stop gifts from Americans grateful for his efforts in the defense of Europe, bringing a match to its tip. He listens to the excited voices coming from the lawn outside. Tonight, the President is hosting a carol service under the giant national Christmas tree. The smell of pine needles and sweet pastry lingers in the year. Churchill feels a swell of gratitude to be part of such an intimate occasion. The previous year, he'd watched helplessly as German bombers wrought devastation across London at the height of the Blitz. The country's future felt perilous. But only weeks ago, Japan and Hitler achieved what he hadn't been able to forced America into the war with an unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor. Churchill hears a soft knocking from his en suite. He watches his bedroom door open. President Roosevelt enters, Deftly manoeuvring his wheelchair. Churchill releases a plume of smoke into the air. Franklin, come in. I'm just taking my bath. The President's large open face shoots him a smile. I wondered how you would feel about giving a little speech tonight. I know how much our people enjoy your broadcast. Reaching for a towel, Churchill tells him, I think that would be marvellous. You know, being half American, they're my people too. Gripping the edge of the tub, Churchill hoists himself to his feet. As the water cascades from his body, he catches a glimpse of Roosevelt's startled expression and he chuckles as the President averts his gaze. Paddling into the bedroom, Churchill recalls their first meeting in August, when Roosevelt welcome welcomed him aboard his battleship in Placentia Bay, the American military played God Save the King while the Star Spangled Banner could be heard coming from HMS Prince of Wales. Since then, Churchill feels their relationship has deepened into something approaching genuine friendship. But as he watches Roosevelt leave the room, a nagging doubt begins to form with America. Now in the fight, Churchill can finally share the love and responsibility of protecting the world from the Nazis. But after years of enduring the President's prevarication, the question remains unclear for whom and for what.
- [29:08]
Peter Frankopan
We'll come back to that doubt. Afwa. But Churchill always liked America. I mean his mother was American after all. And he's determined to get Roosevelt and the United States to like him. And I guess this is really the beginning of, of what's often described as the special relationship. I mean that relationship has a particular resonance between Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan in the 80s too. But that personal connection between the two men is really important. Right.
- [29:32]
Afua Hirsch
I feel like once you're on nude terms with a fellow leader, you've definitely got some kind of special relationship. I mean that's a true scene with Roosevelt in the bathroom and Churchill kind of waddling around naked and they were hanging out in each other's bedrooms. They were very intimate on a man to man friendship level. I think that the racial dimension comes back here because even before the war and the needs to get America to intervene, Churchill was working on a book about the English speaking peoples and he was often talking about the unique bond of the English speaking peoples. It was part of his imperial worldview that this new world that had been created by English colonists in the Americas was uniquely culturally linked through these ideas of Christianity and commerce and all the classic imperial concepts. And so I think from that ideological level, Churchill felt that Britain and America must be connected. Now it's a matter of Britain's survival that that relationship be special in a more meaningful military way.
- [30:35]
Peter Frankopan
Well, both have this kind of iconic role in histories of the United states in the 20th century and Britain and the war is the making of that in Churchill's case. But I mean the Americans and Roosevelt have been very supportive of Britain since the start of the war, even if they're not providing direct military. There's a Lend lease agreement in March 1941, nine months before the US enters the war, which gives Britain huge amounts of vital supplies without having to pay until a long way down the line. In fact, the final payment was only made in 2006. And then a few months later there's the signing of the Atlantic Charter. That again has really important long term consequences and significance that sets out the British and US post war goals. And that's seen as the kind a precursor to the origins of the United Nations. That bromance between FDR and Churchill is really important. Endless messages. So Churchill sends roosevelt more than 1,000 messages and telegrams, and FDR sends almost 800 back the other way. It's hugely significant, and I think it's important to get past the doubters, both in the us, a vocal group who don't want American involvement. Even after Japan, there's a constant talk about why can't the Europeans just settle this stuff? But the personal relationship is hugely significant in strengthening both men's positions at the time and I think also historically as well.
- [31:56]
Afua Hirsch
At the same time, there are areas where American and British interests don't perfectly align. And America disapproves of European, including British, imperialism, while Churchill's main preoccupation is securing the empire. So that's an awkward clash. And America will continue to put pressure on Britain to loosen its control over its colonies up after the war. Meanwhile, America manages to get leases for their army bases in the British Empire, especially in the Caribbean, in this Lend Lease agreement in exchange for more weapons. And then Churchill is very wary of Russia and he's worried about the fact that America is incentivized to build a closer relationship with Russia to help protect them, notably against the Japanese in the Pacific. So it would be wrong to portray this as a neatly lined up alignment of interests. And those doubts will linger over the relationship throughout the war.
- [32:52]
Peter Frankopan
That reconfiguration that's caused by Japan's attack on Pearl harbor brings the United States, Britain and its remaining European allies and the Soviet Union into kind of uneasy balance. We're all fighting for the same thing. So there's still a very long way to go. But Churchill calls it early again in 1942. The victory at Alamein is the first really important British success against German forces. Churchill has another zinger where he says, this is not the end, it's not even the beginning of the end, but it is perhaps the end of the beginning. And that weight of what is always going to happen once the US lend their weight in, it just starts to gallop forward. So the Soviets crush the Germans at Stalingrad. Hundreds of thousands of men captured and killed. The Allies invade Sicily in 1944. We have D Day on the 6th of June, still celebrated every year. And what is the post war world going to look like? But even though the Allies are slowly winning the war and Churchill is a hero at the same time, there are horrific events unfolding a long way from Europe that often don't get talked about in the context of the Second World War. That will be the single most controversial and difficult question mark about Churchill's not just career as Prime Minister, but of his life and those still divide opinion.
- [34:07]
N/A
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- [35:53]
Afua Hirsch
These are the words of Bijoy Krishna Tripathi speaking to the BBC. Many people sold their boys and girls for a little rice. Many wives and young women ran off hand in hand with men they knew or didn't know. Hunger stalked us. Hunger and epidemics. People of all ages began to die. Everyone had to live with half empty stomach stomachs. Since there was nothing to eat, many people in the village died. People started looting, searching for food. Bijoy Krishna Tripathi was from Midnapore in Bengal. And in 1942 he witnessed one of India's greatest tragedies, the Bengal famine. And the question, Peter, of why that happened and to what extent Churchill is responsible for it remain deeply, deeply contested.
- [36:49]
Peter Frankopan
In 1942, there is a combination of factors that bring everything together. First, the end of essential rice imports from Burma to India and beyond stopped because the Japanese invade. We then faced with climate events of cyclones, flooding and crop disease that causes catastrophic failure of the rice crop in Bengal. We have poor administration both locally and nationally across British India. And the net consequence of all of that, made worse by the hoarding of rice by the poor distribution of emergency reserves, is the deaths of millions of Indians. Some estimates put the number as high as 5 million more. Normally it's suggested around 3 million. Either way, it's an absolutely astonishing, horrific and terrible number in terms of the suffering that that caused. The question is whether Churchill was responsible for it too. Some critics say that he didn't give the disaster the priority it deserved. He refused to allow shipments of grain back into Bengal. He insisted that Australian grain shipments go to Europe and that he prevented Canadian shipments from heading to Calcutta. But others see that Churchill refused to not only send supplies, but the decisions that he made of forcing India to export rice to aid the war effort made things even worse. And that's something that's hotly disputed.
- [38:15]
Afua Hirsch
There was new evidence from studies of soil samples in Bengal over a decades long period that came out recently, which analyzed different famines in Bengal and found that actually this one in 1943 was not the worst one, and yet it caused such a disproportionate number of deaths. And that that study suggests that it was the management of food distribution, rather than the natural conditions of crop failure itself that resulted in that famine. But you're right, Peter, there are complex factors around that. I mean, there was a war, so what was happening in Myanmar, what was happening with global shipping, all had a role to play. But I think that it's right that people point to the fact that food was still being exported from India by the British during a time when it was so badly needed in Bengal, and that these decisions not to bring in extra supplies that would have saved lives were made by Churchill. I personally think that where this gets unnecessarily polarizing is when people take a kind of pro and anti Churchill stance. You know, Churchill defenders will point to things Churchill said that, like, he didn't really want that many Indians to die. To say it wasn't on purpose, I just find that kind of irrelevant. The fact is he didn't take measures he could have that would have saved more Indian lives. And even today, pro Churchill historians will blame it on Indians and say it was because of Indian mismanagement and corrupt local officials. I just find that pretty hypocritical because the same historians will defend the fact that India was a colony, will say it was run well by the British, will say the population was rising in India, which points to how brilliantly it was thriving under British rule in general. But whenever anything goes wrong, they'll blame it on local Indian administrators. I think you have to take the whole thing as a package. And the most important thing for me is that we acknowledge that in the context of this war, where so many millions of lives were lost, this was by any standards, a horrendous and avoidable tragedy.
- [40:19]
Peter Frankopan
Well, I think the dysfunction of a military and imperial administration is at the heart of all of this. And the question, I guess, is how much you pin blame on Churchill. And there's plenty of quotes that Churchill's given about Indians, some which we've already mentioned, but also about the attempts to try to solve the problem. He tells the Viceroy of India, Archibald Wavell, that he'll try to help. He tries to get Roosevelt to supply ships, but can't do it. We know in cabinet he says it's not just the Indians who are starving during this war. I think it's that in the heat of what's happening in the 1940s, the miscommunication, the lack of clarity, some Indian historians note that the news being fed back from Calcutta and Delhi was taken at face value and therefore was misunderstood and misinterpreted in London. But I think that the scale of the disaster, as you say, makes it absolutely clear that it was human error that was really critical.
- [41:13]
Afua Hirsch
Britain has to take responsibility. You can't have the pros of an empire which will supply you its soldiers and its resources for your war effort while you control it, and not take responsibility for the decisions that lead to huge suffering. And I think that Churchill was completely unambiguous about feeling that Britain should run India. Therefore, he gets the blame ultimately for decisions that were taken. And I think that people who want to have it both ways are performing this kind of apologist intellectual gymnastics that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
- [41:49]
Peter Frankopan
The end of 1943. The outcome of the war looks like it's just a matter of time. So Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin begin to meet to discuss the war and what's going to happen next. The three of them meet twice. First at the Tehran conference in late 1943, then at the Yalta Conference in February 1945. And on the agenda are things like coordinating strategy against Germany and Japan, the demilitarization of Germany, the future of Eastern Europe, and ensuring peace in the future. And while Churchill gets on well with both men, he and Stalin hit it off despite having a deep mistrust of each other. He is at a big disadvantage because he represents the weakest force in the how does Britain fit between these two great superpowers?
- [42:33]
Afua Hirsch
Aphra I think Churchill and Stalin's friendship is one of the weirdest bromances in history. They don't either of them really trust the other. Churchill hated Stalin before he met him and realized that actually there were a few things he could find personable about him. While also gradually learning more and more about the atrocities Stalin and his forces had been perpetuating in the war. So it was a pretty uncomfortable thing. But Churchill, always a realist, needed to do business with Stalin. He would enjoy his caviar and 20 course meals and 10 hour long toasts. And he was motivated by wanting to cooperate with the Soviets to free Europe, while also protecting the British Empire and making sure Stalin didn't go too far in helping himself to large parts of Europe at the end of the war.
- [43:27]
Peter Frankopan
Well, I think that those things look very different. So the war gives the Americans huge industrial, military and technological capabilities. And the Soviet Union, which has been basically by the start of the Second World War, totally decimated by purges, the death of all intellectuals, again, has this enormous military industrial complex. And Britain has its empire. It's trying to keep Sellotape together, but has been hollowed out by both 1914-18, the First Great War, and then by the Second World War II, and that idea of trying to hang onto the bits and pieces of empire, some of which are more expensive than others, it starts to look like he's a man from a bygone era. That Churchill is representing the past rather than the future. And the role that Britain's gonna have at the end of the war is the source of discussion between the three leaders. But Churchill's voice is the thinnest of the three.
- [44:18]
Afua Hirsch
At 3pm on 8 May 1945, Churchill announces on the radio the German war is at an end. The man of destiny has reached his destination.
- [44:43]
Winston Churchill
Of the call of freedom. In every land.
- [44:53]
Afua Hirsch
In all our young.
- [44:54]
Winston Churchill
History, we have never seen a greater day than this. Every rival band, our woman have done.
- [45:10]
Afua Hirsch
Their p. We have raced through the Second World War, Peter and now we're at July 1945, two months after Germany's surrendered and just weeks before the first atomic bomb descends on Hiroshima, the UK is holding a general election.
- [45:32]
Peter Frankopan
26Th of July 1945, 10 Downing Street, London. Beneath a wall of maps, Churchill toys with the zip of his blue siren suit. Across the room, he watches Captain Pym set up a board to record the imminent general election results. It's taken three weeks for service members ballot papers to be collected from around the world. But now they're about to discover whether nearly half a century after joining the Conservative Party, Churchill will finally lead them in government. As Pym leaves to fetch the first results, Churchill nervously brushes cigar ash from his suit. The one piece romper inspired by workman's overalls was made to his Own design by his Mayfair shirt maker. He stands and casts a pensive glass around the room in which countless dramas of the last six years were played out. The agony, an ecstasy of warfare. Even now, with the Nazis defeated, he feels a resistance to returning to a state of peace. During the election campaign, he reassured his Woodford constituents that his faculties and energies were as good as they had ever been unless relieved by the nation. I cannot shrink from the tasks which have devolved upon me. The war itself is not finished. But as Pim appears with the first 10 constituency results, Churchill can tell by his expression that the news isn't good. Churchill thinks about the millions returning from war, their hopes for a better, more secure future. Labour's offer of national insurance, house building, family allowances and nationalization of industries would certainly seem tempting. But for his own part, he felt compelled to warn against the sly seductions of socialism infiltrating British life. Two hours later, Churchill stares in disbelief at the board. It's a landslide victory for Labour with 146 seat majority. While the sting of defeat is sharp, he also understands the desire to consign the horrors of war to the past in a day. He wanders back into number 10. Outside the cabinet Room, Clementine runs a supportive hand across his back. Hard luck, darling. Churchill gestures to the empty table. Thirty years of my life have passed in this room. I shall never sit in it again. She squeezes his arm. It could be a blessing in disguise. While his expression remains forlorn, a knowing twinkle flashes in his eyes. At the moment, it seems quite effectively disguised.
- [48:20]
Afua Hirsch
Despite Churchill's popularity, Labour wins a landslide in the khaki election. It gets called that because of all the men and women in uniform voting from their outposts around the world. The people don't trust the Tories to bring about the sweeping change they want. And actually, Peter, if you think about it, the Tories at this point don't really have much to offer. Except Winston Churchill.
- [48:43]
Peter Frankopan
Well, I think it's one of the great shocks of being a young historian, having learned about the Second World War and to find out that two months later, Churchill is booted out of office. Where you'd have thought that he'd be leader for life. And I remember reading that for the first time. I must have been eight or nine years old and I thought that the textbook must have made a mistake. But you're right, all those servicemen had wanted change. The Beveridge report in 1942 had outlined the foundation of a welfare state, a national Health service. It all been written under a Churchill government. But you know, it hadn't helped that Churchill had gone over the top comparing the Labour Party to the Gestapo, going on about socialism in a way that might mean something if you're really hardline conservative. But probably warning that Stalin and his troops are about to take over in Britain is not absolutely quite right.
- [49:32]
Afua Hirsch
I don't know if I take it as a slight to Churchill. I think the electorate were actually smart enough to be able to distinguish between what they needed from a wartime leader, which they unequivocally approved of Churchill in that role, versus what they needed in peacetime, where they were now thinking about wider social reform, rebuilding this battered and bruised country. I think it shows a sophistication on their part that they saw Churchill for what he was, which was a unique leader able to take them through that darkest hour versus a rebuilding, hopeful, visionary new beginning in peace. And that's exactly what they hoped they were choosing with Labor. And we still talk about this post war labor period as foundational to our modern life.
- [50:19]
Peter Frankopan
I think you're absolutely right, Afwitz, that what was right for the 40s in the early part of the decade to defeat the Nazis was a different thing to how do you rebuild? And you need, you need a different vision. And that's what the Labour Party offered at that time.
- [50:31]
Afua Hirsch
I think the thing that is surprising is that the electorate was able to pivot so quickly into realizing, okay, job done. Now let's get something different going. There will be one last muted hurrah for Churchill. One more spell in number 10, but his finest hour is done. And how fine was it, Peter? How should we judge him today? Okay, don't answer that now. That is for next time on Legacy. Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey.
- [52:00]
Peter Frankopan
From.
- [52:01]
Afua Hirsch
Wondery and goal hanger. This is the third episode in our series about Winston Churchill.
- [52:06]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.
- [52:25]
Afua Hirsch
We've used many sources for this series, including Walking With Destiny by Andrew Roberts and Winston Churchill. His Times, His Crimes by Tarek Ali. Legacy is hosted by Me Afwahsh and Me Peace Francopan scene writing by Jack.
- [52:43]
Peter Frankopan
McKay for Goal Hanger. Our series producers are Kate Taylor, Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is Associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [53:00]
Afua Hirsch
This series of legacy was sound engineered and designed by Emma Barnaby and Rob Spate.
- [53:05]
Peter Frankopan
Music supervision is Scottish Velasquez for Frison Sink.
- [53:09]
Afua Hirsch
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinote Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [53:15]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.