Loading summary
Transcript72 lines
- [00:00]
Afua Hirsch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wonderry app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:09]
Peter Frankopan
Wondery hello and welcome to the second episode of our series on Winston Churchill. When we left you at the end of the first episode, Churchill had become a national hero in Britain after his daring escape from from the Boers. He turned that into a political career. And when war comes in 1914, he's dead center as First Lord of the Admiralty overseeing the world's largest navy.
- [00:40]
Afua Hirsch
Churchill has been warning of the threat posed by Germany, but few took any notice, and this is not the last time that will happen. But for now, he relishes the approach of another conflict, another chance to show how Great Britain and its great empire will bow to no one. The trouble is, nobody has told Winston Churchill he's not a soldier anymore.
- [01:05]
Peter Frankopan
Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Another worthwhile listen is Amy Tintera's thrilling and twisting whodunit, Listen for the Lie. This laugh out loud, funny tale follows Lucy, a woman who needs to clear her own name after a true crime podcast decides to probe into the worst night of her life, one she conveniently can't remember. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com wondrypod and discover all the years best waiting for you. We all know playtime and problem solving.
- [02:08]
Afua Hirsch
As a kid is super important.
- [02:10]
Peter Frankopan
That's why Kiwico is launching Kiwico Clubs to engage kids on a journey of seriously fun learning. With Kiwico Clubs, kids will learn the fundamentals through hands on projects and progressively build their skills with each new project they work on. Watch your kids go from learning to.
- [02:25]
Afua Hirsch
Build bows and arrows engineering their own robot.
- [02:29]
Peter Frankopan
Kiwico has five clubs with unique topics like science, technology, engineering, art and math, otherwise known as Steam, that encourage kids to be creative, bold, curious and persistent through hands on plan projects. Tinker, Create and innovate with Kiwico. Get up to 50% off your first crate at kiwico.com promo code Wondery that's up to 50% off your first Crate at kiwico.com promo Code Wondery from Wondery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankopern.
- [03:07]
Afua Hirsch
I'm Afwahash.
- [03:09]
Peter Frankopan
And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [03:29]
Afua Hirsch
This is Churchill, episode two, the Unsinkable Politician. I love it when we talk about events on which you are a world leading geek and I feel like the events leading up to the outbreak of the First World War are one of those areas.
- [03:55]
Peter Frankopan
Well, everybody learns in a classroom in England that the First World War starts when the heir to the throne of the Austro Hungarian Empire, Franz Ferdinand, is shot on a street corner in Sarajevo by Gabriel Princip, who's a Serbian nationalist who's upset about the expansion of Austria. But this sets off a complex chain reaction that leads to ultimatums being issued to the partial Romanization of the Imperial army of Russia that then starts in sequence, a response by the Germans and the Austrians and the detonation that goes off costs millions of lives. Trenches being dug all over northwestern Europe, in East Africa, in the Middle east. And the consequences of all of this unraveling are going to lead to the collapse of multiple empires across all of Europe. That's the short version, but here we go. We get Churchill and what his role is in the First World War.
- [04:44]
Afua Hirsch
Well, I am curious, Peter, how much he would have understood the scale of what was unfolding at these first days of the First World War. He wrote in a letter to his wife, everything tends toward catastrophe and collapse. I am interested, geared up and happy. Is it not horrible to be built like that? The preparations have a hideous fascination for me. I pray to God to forgive me for such fearful moods of levity. Yet I would do my best for peace and nothing would induce me wrongfully to strike a blow. I feel like that summarises quite accurately, Peter, these challenging aspects to his personality. That he does feel thrilled by the escalation towards war and violence, but he also has enough awareness to know that that is problematic.
- [05:36]
Peter Frankopan
Yeah, I mean the British Empire has had lots of setbacks here and there around the world, but by and large for the previous century it's been about expansion, success and conquest. The theater of European war basically hasn't really involved the British since the. There are a couple of little interludes in Crimea, for example, but basically for the last hundred years, the horrors of a proper European war have been completely forgotten. So the kind of euphoria in the buildup to the First World War that Churchill talks about, the idea that this is going to be a thrill, people think the war is going to be quick, they're going to think it's going to offer opportunity for glory. And of course, Churchill himself is from a line of a family who had cemented Britain's ability to influence events all over Europe. So this looks like it's a real opportunity. So Churchill has got that eye of a war reporter, he's got that sense of A World in Crisis, which is the title of a book he's going to write in due course. But he's also First Lord of the Admiralty, and the role that the Navy is going to play means that Churchill is going to be directly involved in all of these confrontations, challenges. And he's absolutely certain that the British are going to win, partly because the British Navy is bigger, better and better trained than the German rivals too. But it doesn't get off to a great start for him. He goes to Antwerp to look at how to defend Belgium against the German advance, and first of all nearly gets killed when a shell explodes nearby him. But then Antwerp, which he writes about and thinks is going to be a great pillar of defense, falls quite quickly, and the dash gets used against him by his enemies to show that he's rash, that he's foolish, and that he doesn't understand what war is all about. So when Church is back in London, he brushes off all the criticisms. And it's not long before he's thinking of a new scheme that is extremely ambitious. Quite soon after the war starts, the Germans, the Austro Hungarians and the Ottoman Turks form an alliance. And the British are both worried about the Dardanelles Strait supporting Russia, the narrow strip that connects the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. But also what opportunities this might give to the British to expand their empire further. So soon it becomes a question of how to control Constantinople once the war is over. And Churchill thinks the best way to do this and knock out the Ottomans is to send a large force to the Gallipoli peninsula to try to seize The Dardanelle Straits.
- [07:56]
Afua Hirsch
August 28, 1915. Anzac Cove, Gallipoli. Teddy McInnes wakes with a start, nerves jangling at the sound of flies buzzing around his billet. In the distance, the now familiar percussion of excellent exploding shells continues unabated, but his eyes scan the narrow foxhole nervously. Death by shrapnel is a regular and hazardous occurrence, but the flies are almost as bad during the long Summer days. Thick, shimmering clouds of them flit between open latrines, rotting corpses and food supplies, spreading dysentery and misery. He edges out of the dugout and immediately feels a slap on his shoulder. Turning, he sees the grinning face of Ray Pike, a fellow ANZAC Division infantryman. They'd landed together on the peninsula four months earlier alongside 16,000 other Australian and New Zealand soldiers. Ray rattles his empty canteen. It's hotter than Ashira's armpit out here and we're out of bloody water. I'm going on the hunt. Teddy groans. The constant shortage of drinking water is yet another daily worry. But he shoots Ray a wink. Chin up. You might get yourself invalided out before tonight. After months of being pinned down by the fortified enemy position, the men joke that the only way out of Gallipoli is through injury. But the laugh catches in Teddy's throat and he thinks about their upcoming offensive. A nighttime attack on the Turks position on the high ground. He knows all too well the damage Turkish machine guns can do. Teddy follows his friend along the coastal path leading to another unit's camp. As the sun beats down, he prays their store still has some water. Soon they're traversing ravines and razorback ridgelines dotted with scrub. He listens to Ray's unbroken diatribe. It wouldn't be so bad if we had the bloody ammo. But as usual, it's those fellows in Europe they think of first. Teddy agrees. Since the aborted naval invasion of the Dardanelles Strait, the Gallipoli campaign has been one disaster after another. The ground offensive even started badly. They overshot their intended landing site by a mile. Instead of a wide, flat landing ground, they were faced with steep cliffs protected by Mustafa Kemals heavy guns. Teddy winces, recalling the hailstorm of shells that tore into his unit, killing hundreds. Suddenly, rifle fire makes the men freeze in their tracks. Teddy shoots Ray a worried glance. I reckon we should head back. As they pick their way back down the slope, his throat burns with thirst. The sound of artillery shells echoing along the canyon grows louder. He hopes things are going better for the Allies on the Western Front.
- [10:55]
Peter Frankopan
They weren't going much better, but they weren't going as badly as against the Turks. Gallipoli is one of the worst, not just disaster, the First World War. It's one of the worst military catastrophes of all time. It has such a huge impact. Loss of casualties over the eight months, somewhere between quarter million and 400,000 men on both sides. And it has a huge significance in Turkey today because it's seen as the seminal point actually of the evolution of the Turks from an Ottoman antiquated force to one that can hold their own and towards the Turkey that evolves with Ataturk after the First World War. It's also a disaster in terms of the idea that the British army is good at making battlefield decisions. And it hurts Churchill. Churchill's already been criticized in the press about Antwerp and his misjudgments with Gallipoli as an inquiry into what had gone wrong. And although Churchill isn't completely blamed for it, he starts to be thought of as being hot headed and having bad judgment. That's really bad for Churchill as a political figure, but also for the way in which he sees himself.
- [11:57]
Afua Hirsch
One of the things I love about studying these characters in real depth is you realize how over simplistic the narrative that gets written about them is. Because at this stage, Churchill is not a great war leader. I mean, that is a Persona that takes years, decades for him to build. At this point, he is having ups and downs and this is something that will hang over him for the whole future of his career. Whenever anything goes wrong, somebody will raise the name Gallipoli. The Tory press call him a danger to the country, which must have been particularly painful for someone who was such an arch patriot. The head of the Navy resigns and calls Churchill a bigger threat than the Germans. I mean, really serious language to use during an existential war against the Germans. And the soon to be Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who will become a friend later, says, Winston is a difficult fellow. He has not merely got bad judgment, he has none. And Churchill at this point resigns. But being Churchill, he is still defending the plan. He never fully acknowledges how catastrophic it was or that he should really be blamed for that.
- [13:06]
Peter Frankopan
Well, he resigns and he goes to war. I mean, literally, he goes into the trenches at the age of 41, so he's above the age of conscription. But he puts his body where his mouth is, he signs up, he takes command of a battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, leads them into the front line and he experiences the true horrors of life in the trenches. In 1915, or at least some of them. During that time there isn't a big German offensive. So the really terrible things that happen are perhaps a little bit better than happening to other people. But he does come close to being killed on several occasions. I do admire and respect the fact that he went to go and do that when he really didn't have to. Now, whether he did it to protect himself from those stinging Criticisms. You mentioned afwa. I'm not absolutely sure. But he doesn't stay there for that long. So in May 1916, his battalion is merged with another one and his role as a commander is no longer needed. So he comes back to England to work as an mp.
- [14:01]
Afua Hirsch
That is something that you always have to give Churchill. He never shies away from the site of danger. He's not some removed administrator sitting in comfort while sending other men potentially to their deaths. And I also think it's part of his genuine fascination with war. He has this voracious appetite to experience it, but also to learn about it, to become knowledgeable. And you see that when returning from the trenches, he returns to his work as an MP and begins advocating for soldiers on the front line, writing papers about technologies that could reduce casualties. And he's deeply interested in how Britain can improve its warfare, its techniques, its strategies. And when Lloyd George forms a new wartime coalition government, taking over from Herbert Asquith in 1916, Churchill has to resign himself to taking that outside interest because his reputation is now sufficiently unreliable that he's not given a role in Cabinet anymore. But he does, in 1917, become Minister of Munitions, where he can put some of that knowledge and curiosity more into direct use in government.
- [15:07]
Peter Frankopan
It is quite an important role, I mean, as you'd guess during a war situation. But he definitely doesn't look like a possible future leader. He doesn't have the trust and confidence of other MPs. In fact, more than 100 Conservative MPs sign a Commons motion deploring the decision to make him Minister of Munitions. He's seen as a man who's so bumptious, so self confident that nothing is going to stop him. And people obviously have felt his star has maybe burnt too bright and him being taken down a peg is useful and worthwhile. But then the Russian Revolution happens.
- [15:41]
Afua Hirsch
He hates Bolsheviks. He hates them, he hates their ideology, he hates their revolution. There's probably a bit of anti Russian xenophobia thrown into the mix. Had he had it his own way, he would have repeated the mistakes of Gallipoli, in the sense of sending many young men's lives into Russia to fight the Bolsheviks, something he desperately wanted to do and was only restrained by Lloyd George. And I think historians agree that Lloyd George saved him from what would have been another catastrophic black mark on his record, not to mention however many lives would have been lost.
- [16:16]
Peter Frankopan
I think that the Russian Revolution set off a sequence of events that we're still living through today. And I think the horrors of trying to respond to brutality that happens in Russia in 1917. Maybe Lloyd George is right and you're right again, afua that it would have just cost more lives and would have been counterproductive. But the horrors were so bad in the immediate aftermath of the revolution, with violence and then famine and then in the 1930s, catastrophe in places like Ukraine, the Stalin purges and beyond that. I just think that a more robust intervention might have led to a different future for Russia and a better one. And I suppose I say that on the basis that it couldn't have been worse. I'm probably more sympathetic to the idea that it was worth trying to do something and maybe given a bit more time and a bit more resources, Britain and Churchill's plans could accomplish something. But any event, the world that we've seen go up in flames finally comes to a conclusion at 11 o'clock on 11 November 1918, where about a year after the Americans have entered the war and years of grinding conflict, 40 million lives lost, the war finally comes to an end. And Churchill's reputation has been damaged and bruised, maybe not fatally. And in fact, his star starts to burnish a little bit more. Because in January 1919, Churchill becomes secretary of State for War and Air in the Lloyd George government.
- [17:37]
Afua Hirsch
He relishes being back in government. He believes he's been born to rule, he just has. I can only describe it as an aristocratic swag. The post war world is really changing rapidly now, though, and countries ruled by Britain for centuries are asserting their autonomy, demanding sovereignty, insisting on change, whether that's India or Ireland. And there's a new territory whose future Britain is now deciding. Palestine. And the decisions that Churchill will make next shape the world profoundly as we now know it. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs for caring for your home. Out indecision, overthinking, second guessing every choice you make in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out beige on beige on beige in knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire, start caring.
- [18:39]
Peter Frankopan
For your home with confidence.
- [18:41]
Afua Hirsch
Download thumbtack today.
- [18:43]
Peter Frankopan
This episode is brought to you by Columbia Sportswear. From snowy trails to city streets, Columbia has you covered. Their Omni Heat Infinity jackets are the gold standard in warmth pushing the boundaries of innovation. Feel the difference as thermal reflective technology wraps you in warmth whether you're hiking mountains or conquering your daily grind. Visit Columbia.com to learn more. Britain in the short term is a net beneficiary of the settlements at the end of the First World War. First with The Treaty of Versailles, there's an attempt to force the Germans to pay compensation. That in theory looks like it's a reasonable idea to start with. It turns out to be a disaster. But also Britain managed to snap off territories away from the Germans as a result of those settlements. And then the use of force in other parts of the world look like they're going to reinforce the empire rather than to weaken it. So in 1919, there's a massacre in Amritsar where 379 peaceful protesters are killed by the British.
- [19:50]
Afua Hirsch
And as usual, Churchill has a complex position. For example, despite being racist against Indians and rabidly pro imperialist, he also condemns the Amritsar massacre, says it's monstrous and it's not the British way of doing business. So he has this belief in the decency of empire, where he sees something like that massacre as an isolated event set against the backdrop of this essentially benevolent imperial settlement. And then closer to home, because I think we so often forget that Ireland was really Britain's first real colonial possession and the one on which it tried out so many of its tools of oppression it would use elsewhere in the world. And that's really coming to a head at this interwar period where the Irish Catholics want to be a republic. And Churchill unleashes in this era the notorious Black and Tans, a brutal Protestant militia made up of former First World War soldiers. And the atrocities that are committed by the Black and Tans still cause trauma for many people on the island of Ireland today. But right up until recent years, Ireland is being contested by Protestants and Catholics alike. And Churchill backs the Black and Tans and he backs home rule.
- [21:10]
Peter Frankopan
The tactics to the Black and Tans are notorious, but at the same time he is a vocal critic of the ira. But on the other hand, he recognizes the need to listen to Unionist views. He has an appreciation that there are nuances in Ireland and makes an effort to understand it. But as we've spoken about before, what he thinks about in Ireland doesn't get applied to India, for example, where he remains a minority in Parliament about his views there too. But in 1921, Churchill is made Secretary of State for the Colonies. And Britain, amongst all the other post war settlements, has a mandate to run Palestine. And a lot of that is to do with the Balfour Declaration.
- [21:47]
Afua Hirsch
I want to start with some context, because Churchill's lifetime is a time when very upsetting antisemitic views are completely mainstream in the British establishment. There are many people who believe in the idea that Jewish people are somehow racially inferior or that they don't deserve the same rights as others. And Churchill from the outset does not share these views. In fact, he really looks up to Jewish people. And a lot of these views come from his father, who was friends with Lord Rothchild, who was the founder of the Rothschild banking dynasty. He had Jewish friends. He grew up with the idea that Jewish people were equals, had much to admire, that they should be treated with humanity. And that often marks him out as a bit of a lone voice in his political party in British Parliament, in Britain in general. And I think that's important because it's underlying his support for the idea that there needs to be a Jewish homeland. And even though various options are discussed as to where that could be, he supports Zionist demands that this should be in the Middle East.
- [23:01]
Peter Frankopan
The Balfour Declaration in 1917 is made by the British Foreign Secretary who writes to Lord Rothschild, who's seen as the leader of Britain's Jewish community and a key figure in the Zionist movement, and says His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. And Churchill, as you say, is a keen supporter of the idea of a Jewish state. But there is an obvious distinction in the ways he treats one religious minority, Jewish people and other, other races and other nationalities and ethnicities.
- [23:52]
Afua Hirsch
While we can and should applaud the fact that Churchill went against the grain in really recognizing the humanity of Jewish people and their cultural contribution over millennia, it's also at the same time part of his racial hierarchical way of thinking about the world. He puts Africans at the bottom, Asians close to the bottom, British people at the top, and then Jewish people on an equal or even superior footing in. And one of the problems with that is that his support for Zionism comes at a cost of Arabs, especially Palestinian Arabs, partly because they sided with the Turks and the Ottomans in the Great War. And he had very Islamophobic ideas. And while other people around him are more worried about the long term geopolitical instability that might be created by supporting the Zionist idea of a British homeland in the Middle East, Churchill, for all of these different motives, absolutely supports it. And some of these motives are more self serving than any of the ones we've discussed. Britain actually is thinking about how to protect the Empire. It needs a buffer state next to Egypt, especially to protect the Suez Canal, which, as becomes clearer in the course of the 20th century, is such a key part of imperial advantage and access and supply lines to India. So the idea of having a strong British ally in the Middle east to support British interests founded from the start through British control, is something that also appeals to his imperial worldview.
- [25:29]
Peter Frankopan
In a royal commission in the 1930s examining the issue of Palestine, Churchill says, and it's quite a striking and pretty troubling thing to read out. He says, I do not admit, for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia, meaning aboriginal peoples. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to those people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race, or at any rate a more worldly wise race, to put it that way, has come in and taken their place. So those kinds of ways of systemizing the world mean that it's not that difficult to jump from that worldview to redrawing maps, claiming what you think is yours. And if that means moving people around, creating new countries, redrawing the map of the Middle east, then that's worth doing because it's in Britain's interest.
- [26:19]
Afua Hirsch
I think that's a really important quote, and I think it for me explains how these European superiority ideas lead to genocide. Because for Churchill to link the idea of Britain having superiority of arms and essentially ability to kill with the idea that Britain is a superior race, then you have a genocidal mindset. And, you know, some people listening may be really uncomfortable to hear me describe Churchill in that way, especially as he is later to be the person who really and figuratively stands against Hitler with his genocidal ideas. But I would really ask, what is so different about Churchill when we hear him express like that that the mass genocide of Native Americans in America or of aboriginal people in Australia was completely justified because better armed white came along and took what they wanted.
- [27:11]
Peter Frankopan
But is that really what he's saying when he says the great wrong has been done? I mean, I'm not arguing about the displacements or the taking of land or even the murder, but he's not talking about sanctioning of genocide. I suppose another way of trying to understand what Churchill was saying and thinking is, at least at this time in the early 1920s, the British Empire about to reach its absolute peak and zenith in its land and territory and people owing sovereignty to London. I suppose he couldn't conceive that an age would come where that Wouldn't be the case anymore. Looking back on it now, it looks absolutely horrific. But I suppose at the time it made sense to Churchill. It made sense to other people too. You know, not everybody agreed with Churchill, as we've already said, and that perspective, but no one really challenged it robustly. In 1921, Churchill is made Colonial Secretary and he appoints T.E. lawrence, better known as Lawrence of Arabia, as his advisor. And Churchill's basic position is to support the Balfour Declaration and to support the establishment of new emirates elsewhere's client kingdoms to protect oil supplies to Britain and the West. And that question of oil is one of the key areas where Churchill has a legacy that we'll talk about too. In March 1921, Churchill calls a conference in Cairo to discuss the Middle East. And the Arabs are absolutely determined to make it clear that they will not stand for any sort of Jewish state in Palestine.
- [28:33]
Afua Hirsch
And Churchill takes with him Gertrude Bell, the archaeologist, Arabist, some say spy, and T.E. lawrence, the British army officer, diplomat and writer who'd been involved in the Arab revolt against Ottoman rule.
- [28:50]
Peter Frankopan
March 20, 1921. Cairo, Egypt. Churchill grunts at the camel. Languid strides throw him around in the saddle. Mid journey, he was offered a horse as a replacement, but declined, telling their Bedouin guide, I started on the camel and will finish on a camel. From behind a pair of enormous white rimmed sun goggles, he gazes across the flat desert to the mighty Sphinx, the subject of today's painting. Not for the first time, he thinks about accounts of Napoleon's military excursions. Here with him are T.E. lawrence and Gertrude Bell, two members of the Orientalist delegation invited to the Cairo conference. Their expertise in Middle east affairs has been guiding his approach to solving the many conflicts currently engulfing the region. Arriving at Cairo station a week earlier, Churchill was shot. Shocked by the large demonstration awaiting him, throngs of people, some carrying rocks, chanted down with Churchill. As Churchill sets up his easel and paints, he tells Lawrence, it seems my remark about Egypt being part of the empire caused some offence. Well, you can add it to the list of things the Arabs hold against me. Lifting his trilby to mop his brow, Lawrence gives his assessment of the situation. I believe the Sykes Picot agreement has done a grave disservice to the Arabs. We must not allow this bloodshed to continue. Churchill doesn't share Lawrence's misgivings about the Anglo French agreement dividing up the Middle east, but as British Colonial Secretary, he feels the economic impact of directly ruling those regions is unsustainable. The Iraqi nationalist Uprising against British rule recently cost the Treasury £50 million to put down. Gertrude Bell says the real sticking point, I fear will be how to win support for a Jewish state among Palestinian Arabs. There is already widespread opposition. Churchill turns, taking in Bell's angular face. She's the only woman at the Cairo conference as far as he knows, the only woman to occupy a high ranking civil service role. But her extensive travel and fieldwork in the region means she's an authority he'd do well to heed. As he blocks out his canvas with broad brushstrokes, Churchill sets out his position. Our aim is stability at any cost and that means resolving the Zionists claim on the Holy Land with Palestinian interests. What is good for Palestine is good for the region and most importantly, good for the British Empire. As his painting starts to take shape, Churchill feels glad he made the journey. He's going to finally bring peace to the Middle east and take home a fine souvenir for his efforts.
- [31:57]
Afua Hirsch
For me, the thing that I come back to is motives because there are contested and competing claims as to who is entitled to what land. But the point is that imperialists like Churchill were drawing up the map of the Middle east to suit their own interests. I mean, I learned so much about that from your book the Silk Roads, Peter, about Britain's role in carving up Iran for their needs to secure access to oil to fight the wars, among other things. And while it may have made sense to all the people who are making the decisions, they weren't ultimately thinking realistically about creating a just outcome for everyone. They were thinking about how they could use specific groups or specific access to resources for their own ends.
- [32:45]
Peter Frankopan
You're a lawyer, afwa, and the role that international law plays in today's world, or should play, doesn't mean that we're immune from that. So moving of national boundaries, claiming that you have historical links on territories, whether it's in Gaza, whether it's in Lebanon, whether it's in Ukraine, that kind of ways in which the past gets used to frame the use of force. It's of course catastrophic. What's interesting, I think looking back on it, is how divided people were about thinking about the idea of what would be the consequence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
- [33:19]
Afua Hirsch
They weren't even motivated by how to create a long term peaceful settlement. They were thinking about short term strategic or financial gain. And it's so painful to realize how much cultural, spiritual, physical suffering people are still going through when that was the initial motive behind the reality that we.
- [33:41]
Peter Frankopan
Have but a key part of the story was oil and protection of the oil fields in Mesopotamia that are classed as a critical war gain to be able to secure at the end of the First World War to the point that we have high ranking diplomats in London writing out to Gertrude Bell when she asks who should be placed in charge of the different new states that are being formed by the maps that are being created, particularly by the British. Churchill writes and says to Gertrude Bell, it doesn't really matter if we choose three of the fattest men from Baghdad or three of the men with the longest beards who we put up as emblems as rule, because we're going to control them no matter what anyway, as puppets.
- [34:18]
Afua Hirsch
These things are all completely interwoven with this backdrop of prejudice and short termism. And that's how you get these intractable outcomes which by the way are bad for Britain. It's not just that it's not fair on the populations who are being rearranged. It ends up being bad for everyone. And I can't think of a better example of that than what Britain did during this era in the Middle East.
- [34:41]
Peter Frankopan
I think spot on. But for now, Churchill leaves the Middle east behind and returns back home and his political progress is about to be interrupted by an improbable figure and far worse tragedy is about to strike in his own home. If you're looking to learn more about commercial real estate, entrepreneurship, leadership and the economy, where would you turn? Well, a good start might be the CEO of one of the largest commercial real estate finance and advisory services firms in the nation. But how are you ever going to get on their calendar? You don't have to tune in to the Walker webcast hosted by Willie Walker, CEO of Walker and Dunlop, an unparalleled leader in commercial real estate. Listen in on conversations with guests like A Rod economist Peter Linneman and Walker and Dunlap experts. Learn more@wALKERdunlap.com podcast and be sure to follow Walker and Dunlap on all your favorite social media channels. That's walkerdunlap.com podcast the Walker Webcast Insights for Life okay, most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscription, but get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com wondery that's rocketmoney.com wondery rocketmoney.com wondery.
- [36:48]
Afua Hirsch
Churchill is an emotional man in the era of stiff upper lips Peter he is always crying. There's one thing I really took away from reading a lot about Churchill's life is how much he liked a good cry, which personally I think has aged very well in this era of encouraging greater male emotional availability and expression. And now, in his mid-40s, Churchill suffers several emotional blows.
- [37:16]
Peter Frankopan
In 1921, in June, his mother Jenny dies at the age of 67. And then, almost as damaging, his valet dies. Thomas Walden. He'd accompanied him to the Boer War, and Churchill wept bitterly at Walden's funeral. But worse than that, even in his valet, his beloved two year old daughter Marigold, who he calls Duckadilly, dies from septicemia of the throat. She caught a throat infection while on a seaside trip to Broadstairs and hadn't been thought it was serious until it was too late. But her death really hits Churchill and his wife Clemmie hard. And then on top of that, a political blow. Churchill's time as Colonial secretary comes to an abrupt end in 1922. He's in hospital having an appendectomy when Lloyd George's government collapses. And then on top of all of that, he loses his seat in Dundee to Edwin Scrimgeour, the only MP ever elected on a prohibitionist ticket. Which is quite something for Dundee in Scotland as well.
- [38:13]
Afua Hirsch
And Churchill says for Churchill to lose to a prohibitionist, you're right, you couldn't.
- [38:18]
Peter Frankopan
Think of anybody anti tobacconist otherwise. But Churchill says in the twinkling of an eye, I found myself without an office, without a seat, without a party and without an appendix. And he could have said without a mother, without a daughter and without a valet. So Churchill's life looks suddenly like it's in ruins.
- [38:36]
Afua Hirsch
But he does return to parliament two years later in October 1924, and he's left the Liberal Party now over their support for Labor. This is really the end of the Liberal era in British politics. Socialists are high on Churchill's hate list, not far behind the Bolsheviks. So he is a staunch opponent of The Labour Party and the Liberals drift towards it and even the Tories have hated him for years. They take him back and after winning the election, he's made Chancellor by Stanley Baldwin, although he has no experience in that direction whatsoever and will struggle with some of the more technical terminology and data required by Chancellor of the Exchequer.
- [39:25]
Peter Frankopan
Today's day and age, anybody who switches party, we think of them as opportunists. Do you think it's just about him trying to progress his own career or do you think that he's a man of conviction and a man of talent and actually it's quite reassuring that politics isn't as tribal as it would be today.
- [39:40]
Afua Hirsch
I do think that he is more consistent than the political parties around him. He's always been a Tory, it's just that the Conservative Party, when he was entering politics, didn't really get the point of the progressive social reforms that he believed in. And now the Liberal Party is becoming further to the left than he can stomach. He seems to be the constant, whereas everything is shifting around him. Although having said that, there will be one massive shift in his political views because at this point he's actually a big fan of one Mussolini, who he meets in Italy in 1927 and takes an immediate liking to saying memorably, if I'd have been an Italian, I am sure I should have been wholeheartedly with you from the start to the finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism. I mean, I think we can give him some context, that it's his deeply passionate anti Bolshevism that colors his view of Mussolini. It's his enemy's enemy is his friend. But it's not a view that ages very well, this little love affair with the Italian fascist dictator.
- [40:50]
Peter Frankopan
I think that's putting it fairly mildly. Yeah. No, I don't think it does age very well the support for Mussolini. But you know, those sympathies around the rise of fascism in Europe, in Italy and in Germany in particular, of course, are ones that fall on very fertile territory in Britain and particularly with the ruling classes, partly because of anti Semitism stirred into the pot. The shock of what's happened after the Wall street crash, the idea that Europe is a sort of fading civilization and that the best way to rebuild is to inspire particularly young men to do physical exercise and stand in squares doing, doing push ups all day. And this also comes at the same time in Britain's case, with a kind of revisiting of some other parts of the empire and in fact, in 1931, when Stanley Baldwin supports the idea of giving India dominion status. I mean it's already been given to Canada and Australia, South Africa. The Irish free state in 1926 effectively means self government. But Churchill reacts to that and resigns because he thinks it's such a bad idea.
- [41:50]
Afua Hirsch
Well, he's fine with some people being given more rights. So what do Canada, Australia, Newfoundland, South Africa and the Irish Free State all have in common among Britain's imperial possessions? Peter?
- [42:02]
Peter Frankopan
Well, I'm not going to say cricket because just give me another clue.
- [42:07]
Afua Hirsch
I feel like there's a racial continuity here because they all just coincidentally happen to be white ruled countries. I'm just going to read you one of the most famous Churchill quotes on Gandhi, which I've never forgotten. It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a well known type in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the Viceregal palace while he's still organizing and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience to parley on equal terms with the representative of the King Emperor. Such a spectacle can only increase the unrest in India and the danger to which white people there are exposed. I mean, it's one of many quotes which reveals his views that Indians are not equals, cannot be treated the same. He even says dominion status like that of Canada or Australia is not going to happen in India in any period which we can even remotely foresee. It is never possible to make concessions to Orientals when they think you are weak or afraid of them. Yeah, I rest my case.
- [43:16]
Peter Frankopan
A case made and I think accepted. I think what is important, which sometimes get lost in the noise, is that Churchill's views are not shared by everybody. So for example, on a boat coming back from America, he bumps into Lord Irwin who is the Viceroy for India. And Churchill picks him up and starts to argue, saying that India shouldn't be given dominion status. And Lord Irwin gives him a dressing down and he says, you have the ideas of a subaltern a generation ago. It would be very valuable for you to talk to some of them to bring your ideas up to date. So you know, not everybody shares Churchill's views, right?
- [43:49]
Afua Hirsch
They certainly don't. And do you know what Churchill said in reply? Peter?
- [43:53]
Peter Frankopan
Oh, go on.
- [43:55]
Afua Hirsch
I am quite satisfied with my views on India and I certainly don't want them disturbed by any bloody Indians.
- [44:01]
Peter Frankopan
Oh dear. So Churchill is pretty set in his ways, but you know, there are signs that he either changes his views or softens them or perhaps is just politically expedient. So in 1944, for example, over lunch with a senior Indian statesman, Sir Ramaswamy Mudalya, who's a member of the War Cabinet, Churchill has heard assuring him that the old notion that the Indian was in any way inferior to the white man must disappear. I mean, is that because he's evolving his views? I mean, this is after the.
- [44:30]
Afua Hirsch
It's 1944, and without the contribution of hundreds of thousands of Indian servicemen, Britain would not have been in the position it was in the Second World War. And I want to give credit where credit's due. I'm not. Not trying in any way to demonize Churchill. As I said at the beginning, I think it's important to really explore the facts and all their nuance. His position did change on India, but there was some expedients and necessity thrown in. And this was one of the things about the Second World War that it became increasingly unsustainable to have a narrative of overthrowing fascism with its racist and genocidal ideologies, while running an empire that denied the rights Britain was fighting for itself, its sovereignty, its democracy, denying those rights to other people who were also fighting with Britain in the same war. And as we all know, the Second World War would really be the beginning of the end for the British Empire.
- [45:24]
Peter Frankopan
So when he says we must all be pals together, I want to see a great, shining India of which we can be as proud as we are of a great Canada or a great Australia. It's a nice way of burnishing the credentials to say that. Let's just forget about British rule over India for a while. We could be proud of you like a father is proud of his children. It's a sort of similar paternalism that sticks in the throat.
- [45:46]
Afua Hirsch
I think that we should look at what he did as much as what he said. And after the war, he continued to oppose Indian independence. So when he says we must all be pals together, I guess all pals aren't equal.
- [46:00]
Peter Frankopan
So India is obviously one issue where there are problems with Churchill's views. But unlike with India and with Indians, there's another issue where Churchill is going to prove very much on the right side of history.
- [46:15]
Afua Hirsch
August 20, 1932. Munich, Germany. Puffing on a cigar, Churchill cocks an eye at the grand neoclassical mansion overlooking Brienne Strasse. Draped across its front, enormous, enormous crimson banners bear the distinctive Nazi party, a black swastika topped with the Weimar eagle. In the courtyard, he sees Men in military style uniforms moving in formation. Despite the summer weather, Churchill feels a chill pass through him. Just a month earlier, the Nazis became the largest party in the Reichstag. There is imagery and supporters are everywhere. Yet nothing he's seen suggests they will be a force for good in the country. As he passes, he picks up his pace, heading in the direction of the Grand Hotel Continental. Entering the hotel's dining room, Churchill takes in the stylish decor. Watches waiters in crisp white aprons balancing cocktails on silver trays. But as he waits to be seated, he hears a commotion coming from the reception. Reception desk. A man's voice rising in frustration. Please check it again. I made the reservation weeks ago. The name is Katz. Behind the counter, the manager's expression is unwavering. As I say we are full. Perhaps you could try one of the other hotels. Churchill feels a jolt of indignation. He arrived two days ago without any reservation. The dining room isn't even a quarter full. Since coming to Germany to research his latest book, he's noticed a growing undertone of hostility directed towards Jewish people, much of it fueled by the Nazi party's rhetoric. But his thoughts are interrupted by a waiter who shows him to his table. Settling into his seat, Churchill smiles as a friend introduces him to an unfamiliar guest. A thickset man with slicked back hair puts out a hand. It's an honor to meet such an experienced politician. I am Ernst Hampfstengel, Herr Hitler's press secretary. Seizing his opportunity, Churchill asks him, why is your chief so violent about the Jews? Where's the sense in being against a man simply because of his birth? Hampstengel appears taken aback. But then a smile spreads across his face. Perhaps I could persuade him to join us and he could answer of himself. As Hanf Stengel excuses himself from the table, Churchill feels a ripple of optimism. A Frank Discussion with Mr. Hitler would surely put his mind at ease. He may even convince him to reaffirm Germany's alliances with European powers. But his hopes are dashed when, minutes later, Hanf Stengel reappears alone. I am afraid Herr Hitler is detained elsewhere. He sends his regards. As the dinner resumes, Churchill feels his mood darken. He resolves to raise his concerns when he returns to Parliament. That a terrible momentum is building across Germany and Britain must prepare for what might be coming.
- [49:23]
Peter Frankopan
I don't think Churchill feels there's dark clouds coming just because Hitler isn't able to meet him for a drink. But Churchill is a vocal critic of the Nazis. Early on, right from the early 1930s. Hitler becomes Chancellor in January 1933. He's particularly concerned about German militarism and where that might lead, he thinks, to a conflict with Britain rather than, you know, the political philosophy of fascism. But when Neville Chamberlain becomes prime minister and begins a policy of appeasement, Churchill is very vocal opposing it, and he can see its flaws. And that turns out to be pretty prophetic in the end because of those storm clouds gather into a second global conflict of the 20th century.
- [50:03]
Afua Hirsch
Churchill has seen what's coming and he's determined to fight it. And he's the right man in the right place and the right time to affect the course of history. That's next time on Legacy. Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from wondery and goal hanger this is the second episode in our series about Winston Churchill.
- [50:50]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.
- [51:09]
Afua Hirsch
We've used many sources for this series, including Walking With Destiny by Andrew Roberts and Winston Churchill, His Times, His Crimes by Tarek Ali. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwaharsh and me, Peter Frankopan. Scene writing by Jack McKay for Goalhanger.
- [51:29]
Peter Frankopan
Our series producers are Kate Taylor, Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is Associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and.
- [51:42]
Afua Hirsch
Jack D. This series of Legacy was sound engineered and designed by Emma Barnaby and Rob Spate.
- [51:49]
Peter Frankopan
Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Fritz and Sync.
- [51:52]
Afua Hirsch
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinnote Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [51:58]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.