Legacy Podcast: "Winston Churchill | The Unsinkable Politician | 2" – Detailed Summary

Introduction

In the second episode of Legacy, hosted by Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan, the complex character and career of Winston Churchill are further dissected. Building upon Churchill's rise as a British national hero following his daring escape from the Boers, the episode delves into his pivotal role during the onset of the First World War and the subsequent challenges that shaped his legacy.

Churchill’s Early Political Maneuvering and WWI Leadership

At the end of the first episode, Churchill had transitioned from military hero to influential political figure, serving as the First Lord of the Admiralty as war loomed in 1914. Peter Frankopan sets the stage by highlighting Churchill’s underestimation by his contemporaries despite his warnings about the rising threat posed by Germany. Afua Hirsch captures Churchill’s duality, noting his relish for conflict juxtaposed with his awareness of its dangers (00:39).

Gallipoli Campaign: Ambition Meets Catastrophe

One of the episode’s focal points is the Gallipoli Campaign, a disastrous military venture that significantly tarnished Churchill’s reputation. Frankopan explains how Churchill’s ambitious plan to seize the Dardanelles Strait led to one of history’s worst military catastrophes, with approximately 250,000 to 400,000 casualties on both sides (10:55). The campaign not only exposed Churchill’s flawed judgment but also fueled criticism from various quarters, including the press and political rivals.

Afua Hirsch reflects on the multidimensional nature of Churchill, emphasizing that during this period, he was far from the revered war leader he would later become. She cites his frustration with political opposition:

“Whenever anything goes wrong, somebody will raise the name Gallipoli.” (05:36)

Personal Struggles and Resilience

The narrative transitions to Churchill’s personal life, marked by profound losses in 1921. Afua Hirsch shares deeply emotional moments, such as the death of Churchill’s beloved two-year-old daughter, Marigold, and his valet, Thomas Walden (37:15). These tragedies profoundly affected Churchill, showcasing a vulnerable side to the stoic politician.

Despite these hardships, Churchill’s resilience shines through. Peter Frankopan highlights Churchill’s return to military action by enlisting in the trenches, demonstrating his unwillingness to remain detached from the realities of war (13:05). This period underscores Churchill’s enduring commitment to his country, even as his political standing wobbled.

Imperialism, Racial Hierarchies, and Colonial Policies

A significant portion of the episode scrutinizes Churchill’s imperialist views and racial hierarchies. Afua Hirsch discusses Churchill’s contradictory stance on race and imperialism, noting his condemnation of the Amritsar Massacre while simultaneously supporting oppressive measures in Ireland:

“I am quite satisfied with my views on India and I certainly don't want them disturbed by any bloody Indians.” (43:54)

Peter Frankopan elaborates on Churchill’s role as Secretary of State for the Colonies, where he played a pivotal part in shaping the Middle East post-WWI. The episode delves into the Balfour Declaration and Churchill’s unwavering support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, despite the adverse impacts on Palestinian Arabs. The hosts discuss Churchill’s racial views, citing his statements on indigenous populations and his paternalistic approach to empire-building.

Support for Zionism and Its Consequences

Churchill’s advocacy for Zionism is examined in depth. Afua Hirsch applauds Churchill for recognizing the humanity of Jewish people, a rare stance among his contemporaries, but also criticizes his Islamophobic tendencies and the detrimental effects of his policies on Palestinian Arabs (23:51). Peter Frankopan connects this to Churchill’s broader strategic interests, particularly the protection of oil supplies and maintaining British imperial dominance in the Middle East (25:28).

Political Downfall and Return

The episode chronicles Churchill’s political downfall following the Gallipoli debacle, including his resignation and brief military stint on the front lines. Despite losing his seat in Dundee and facing widespread criticism, Churchill’s perseverance leads to his return to Parliament in 1924. Afua Hirsch underscores Churchill’s unwavering determination and his ability to navigate the shifting political landscape, eventually securing the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer under Stanley Baldwin (38:13).

Sympathies for Fascism and Shifting Alliances

A controversial aspect of Churchill’s legacy is his brief admiration for Mussolini. Peter Frankopan addresses this, explaining Churchill’s anti-Bolshevik sentiments and his misplaced alignment with fascist ideologies as attempts to counter the perceived threat of communism. The hosts critique this phase, highlighting how Churchill’s views on Mussolini and fascism did not age well and reflected the broader prejudices of his time (40:49).

Opposition to Indian Independence

Churchill’s staunch opposition to Indian independence is another critical theme. Afua Hirsch presents Churchill’s derogatory remarks about Mahatma Gandhi and his refusal to grant India dominion status, showcasing his deep-seated racism and imperialist mindset:

“It is never possible to make concessions to Orientals when they think you are weak or afraid of them.” (42:02)

Peter Frankopan adds that while Churchill’s views were predominantly shared among the British elite, there were moments when his opinions were challenged, indicating some level of internal dissent within his circles (43:15). However, Churchill’s unwavering stance ultimately hindered progress toward a just and independent India.

Rise of the Nazis and Churchill’s Opposition to Appeasement

As the episode nears its conclusion, the focus shifts to the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany. The hosts depict Churchill’s early recognition of the dangers posed by Hitler and his vehement opposition to the policy of appeasement championed by Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain. Peter Frankopan emphasizes Churchill’s prophetic warnings about the impending global conflict, which would later culminate in World War II (49:22).

Afua Hirsch underscores Churchill’s determination to confront the burgeoning threat, positioning him as a forward-thinking statesman who was crucial in rallying Britain against fascism:

“Churchill has seen what's coming and he's determined to fight it. And he's the right man in the right place and the right time to affect the course of history.” (50:03)

Conclusion

The episode paints a multifaceted portrait of Winston Churchill, balancing his undeniable contributions to British resilience during WWII with his problematic views and actions regarding imperialism, race, and fascism. Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan effectively highlight the contradictions that define Churchill’s legacy, urging listeners to reconcile his heroic image with his more contentious policies and beliefs.

Notable Quotes

• Afua Hirsch (05:36):

  “Whenever anything goes wrong, somebody will raise the name Gallipoli.”

• Peter Frankopan (23:51):

  “I do not admit, for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia...”

• Afua Hirsch (42:02):

  “Such a spectacle can only increase the unrest in India and the danger to which white people there are exposed.”

• Peter Frankopan (43:54):

  “I'm quite satisfied with my views on India and I certainly don't want them disturbed by any bloody Indians.”

• Afua Hirsch (44:01):

  “I think we should look at what he did as much as what he said.”

Final Thoughts

This episode of Legacy serves as a critical examination of Winston Churchill’s complex legacy. By juxtaposing his leadership qualities with his imperialist and racist undertones, Hirsch and Frankopan provide a balanced narrative that challenges the often oversimplified heroic portrayal of Churchill. Listeners are encouraged to engage with history's nuances, appreciating Churchill's impact while acknowledging his profound flaws.