Episode Overview

Podcast: Legacy
Episode: Women and Healing | It's All On WitchTok | 3
Hosts: Afua Hirsch & Peter Frankopan
Date: February 5, 2026

This episode explores the enduring legacy and modern resurgence of women’s roles in healing and spirituality, particularly through the lens of "WitchTok" (the witch community on TikTok). The hosts examine how ancient healing practices—often led by women—have survived persecution, colonization, and modernization, and how they're being revived, challenged, and discussed in contemporary society. The conversation weaves together history, personal narrative, indigenous wisdom, and questions about how knowledge and power are constructed, experienced, and (sometimes) suppressed.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. WitchTok and the Resurgence of Witchcraft

• [00:48] Afua introduces "WitchTok"—the vibrant community of witches and the "witch-curious" on TikTok.
  • Millions engage with this content, some with historic fidelity, others more experimentally.
  • "What I find so fascinating is that they never die, they were never fully erased...they still exist, so much so that they can be resurrected on TikTok." — Afua Hirsch [01:08]
• Peter jokes about forming the "Witch and Famous" TikTok group and admits to not being familiar with WitchTok.

[02:32] Notable Stat:
"Pagans are the fastest-growing religious group in the UK, just FYI." — Afua Hirsch

2. Persecution, Colonization & Oral Histories

• Discussion of the romanticization of witches via pop culture and historical exports like the Salem Witch Trials ([03:50]).
• Colonial Encounters:
  • European colonizers encountered and often disparaged indigenous cultures where women were shamans and healers.
  • The written, Eurocentric record dominates, sidelining oral indigenous histories.
  • European observers often labeled powerful women healers as "demonic" or "primitive." (See [05:04–07:21])

Quote:
"The gaze is unbelievably disparaging, critical, even terrified of the power that these shamans, women healers, have." — Afua Hirsch [05:04]

• Writing and Bias in History:
  • Peter argues even biased written records give us something to work with, compared to the total absence of documentation.
  • "At least you've got something to go with...even the ones that are spicy and tricky and dangerous, because otherwise you're just in the blind." — Peter Frankopan [07:48]

3. Healing Practices in Enslaved & Indigenous Cultures

• Mary Seacole’s Legacy ([10:09]):

  • Enslaved Africans and indigenous peoples often knew how to treat diseases European colonizers couldn’t handle.
  • The British Army frequently sent their wounded to Seacole, relying on her healing traditions.
  • Yet, practices like Obeah (African-Caribbean spiritual healing) remain illegal in Jamaica, a holdover from colonial fear and law.
  • Quote: "It's still illegal. In a colonial era British Law because the British feared this knowledge. You know, they feared its ability to cure in ways they couldn't manage or control." — Afua Hirsch [11:44]

• Peter highlights parallels within Africa and Europe, noting internal variations and challenges of applying broad historical brushstrokes.

4. Contemporary Healing, Reproductive Rights, and Community

• [16:14] Revival of Paganism:

  • "The number of people who identify as pagans in England and Wales rose from 57,000 in 2011 to 74,000." — Afua Hirsch
  • In 2024, the British media declared, "it is officially cool to be a witch." ([17:09])

• Personal Narrative: The Power of Rituals ([17:19–21:43])

  • Afua shares the story of her healer, Sackley, from Benin—descended from a lineage of healers.
  • Experience with puberty rites: how rituals lost to colonialism can empower both mothers and daughters.
  • Lasting effects of colonial erasure on the cultural experience of womanhood.
    • "We, the mothers, were in pieces, really moved, because I think we all started questioning how would our lives have been different if we'd been raised with some of these indigenous ideas." — Afua Hirsch [18:55]
  • Healing is holistic and deeply tied to women's physical, spiritual, and community health.
  • Afua’s skepticism was overcome by direct experience and seeing healing as "supernatural" yet profoundly practical.

• Peter reflects on the crucial role of trust and community in healing:

  • "Those bonds of someone you can turn to, who's not your direct family but who knows you well, are worth their weight in gold." — Peter Frankopan [22:52]

5. Credentialism vs. Community Recognition ([24:13–26:49])

• Afua discusses shifting attitudes about credentials, comparing institutional (Western) qualifications to community-based recognition.
  • "Traditional healers are people who are recognized by the community...I guess in a way they are peer reviewed...Their knowledge is accepted and experienced by the community and their credibility comes from the work that they do." — Afua Hirsch [24:40]
• Social media distorts healing as individual brand, rather than community-driven service.

Notable Statistic:

• WHO: 75% of the world's population depends on traditional remedies, and of traditional health workers, 70% are women ([26:25]).

6. Indigenous Wisdom, Exploitation, and Patents ([26:49–29:25])

• Peter discusses how indigenous approaches to healing have benefitted Western science, but questions of equity remain.
  • "Why is it that we in the West...tend to try to patent them and then monetize them, whereas often other parts of the world...why would you not just share it widely?" — Peter Frankopan [27:13]
• Tension between the benefits of Western medical advances and the environmental/social costs.
  • Urban/rich-country perspectives differ radically from most global experience.

7. Holistic Health, Modern Despair, and Lost Wisdom ([29:25–31:31])

• Afua connects the modern "crisis of loneliness" and "diseases of despair" to the loss of communal and spiritual healing practices.
  • Encourages critical reflection: "Ask yourself, what could be in my history or in our history that we've lost, that could be useful?" — Afua Hirsch [30:19]
• Importance of being open-minded yet discerning about new and old healing traditions.
  • "It's how you blend those together...Perhaps there's something you can learn from all of them rather than prioritizing one over the other." — Peter Frankopan [31:13]

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "What I find so fascinating is that they never die, they were never fully erased, in spite of this really concerted history of persecution and attempts to stamp out these ideas."
  — Afua Hirsch [01:08]
• "The power of life is connected to the power of death. The power to heal is connected to the power of illness."
  — Afua Hirsch [05:04]
• "At least you've got something to go with...even the ones that are spicy and tricky and dangerous, because otherwise you're just in the blind."
  — Peter Frankopan [07:48]
• "It's still illegal. In a colonial era British Law because the British feared this knowledge...They feared its ability to cure in ways they couldn't manage or control."
  — Afua Hirsch [11:44]
• "We, the mothers, were in pieces, really moved, because I think we all started questioning how would our lives have been different if we'd been raised with some of these indigenous ideas."
  — Afua Hirsch [18:55]
• "Those bonds of someone you can turn to, who's not your direct family but who knows you well, are worth their weight in gold."
  — Peter Frankopan [22:52]
• "Their knowledge is accepted and experienced by the community and their credibility comes from the work that they do."
  — Afua Hirsch [24:40]
• "Ask yourself what could be in my history or in our history that we've lost, that could be useful?"
  — Afua Hirsch [30:19]
• "Perhaps there's something you can learn from all of them rather than prioritizing one over the other."
  — Peter Frankopan [31:13]

Important Timestamps

• [00:48]: Introduction to WitchTok and resurgence of witchcraft
• [02:32]: Pagans as UK’s fastest-growing religious group
• [03:50]: Cultural fascination with the Salem Witch Trials
• [05:04–07:21]: Indigenous healing, oral histories, and European bias
• [10:09]: Mary Seacole and the Caribbean's healing traditions
• [11:44]: Obeah’s illegality and the legacy of colonial suppression
• [16:14–17:09]: Explosive growth in pagan identification in the UK
• [17:19–21:43]: Afua’s story of Sackley and ritual’s power for mothers and daughters
• [22:52]: Community importance in healing & holistic health
• [24:40]: Credentials vs. community validation of healers
• [26:25]: WHO stats on traditional medicine and women healers
• [29:25]: “Diseases of despair” as a symptom of lost traditions
• [31:13]: Importance of blending traditions and open-mindedness

TAKEAWAYS

• Women's healing roles have survived, adapted, and are resurging globally—even if often still marginalized or misunderstood.
• Community recognition and holistic approaches have always defined effective healers; social media’s trendiness can erode that integrity.
• Colonial legacies continue to suppress, erase, or criminalize indigenous knowledge, even as modern science reaps its benefits.
• Reclaiming, reinterpreting, and respecting these traditions—with a critical but open lens—is vital to healing gaps in both personal and societal wellbeing today.