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- [00:00]
A
Here's how to stay alive longer so you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a pinata. Stay alive and switch now at boost mobile. After 30 gigs, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile unlimited plan. Hello and welcome to a new episode of Legacy. I'm Peter Frankopan.
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B
I'm Afwa Haas.
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A
And this is Legacy, the show that explores the lives, events and ideas that have shaped our world and asks whether they have the reputations they truly deserve.
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B
This is Women and Healing, episode three. It's all on witch talk. Did you know about witch talk before I mentioned it? Peter?
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A
Do you know, I'm, I, I don't never like to feel like I'm getting old. Please tell me there is something, there is something actually called witch talk.
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B
Well, it's TikTok, but it's the witch community on TikTok and not just the witch community, but kind of witch curious tiktokers because it's massive. Millions and millions of posts and follows and some of these content creators who are self styled witches have built enormous followings. It's really interesting and some of it is kind of a bit out there, but a lot of it is people who are genuinely curious and trying to reclaim quite ancient ideas and, and adhere more faithfully to practices that did exist in cultures including, I mean in many indigenous cultures in the British Isles, Celtic and Saxon. And you know, all of these ideas that, what I find so fascinating is that they never die, they were never fully erased in spite of this really concerted history of persecution and attempts to stamp out these ideas that they still exist, so much so that they can be resurrected on TikTok.
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A
So I want to, I want to set up a TikTok group then for the, for the witch and famous. Maybe we do that.
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B
I love what you did there.
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A
That's not too bad, right? I mean that's what people listen for. They want a little bit of sharp breadbutty. Yeah, the, the, the, the witches and the Wiccans and the arrival of the pagans, you know, they're working out to mobilize each other and to, to come back into action. But yeah, I know. So I'm, I'm not familiar with, with witch talk but Pagans are the fastest.
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B
Growing religious group in the uk, just FYI.
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A
It's just a particular moment I guess, which is funny because you know, the whole point of, as we talked about in the last couple of episodes about how knowledge and science, you know, is the triumph and we're now going backwards. Where people want to have lots of different kind of belief systems. And I, for one, who celebrate diversity, you know, think it's. It's great, but the more people enjoying somebody, the less interested I am. But anyway, I'll take a look at which talk next time I'm around.
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B
I'm just saying the more people are enjoying something, the less interested you are, I think.
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A
So generally, the more it's like. It's like music when stuff that you listen to and you love or your favorite restaurant when there's suddenly cues to get in there. You think, well, it's really disappointing when things peak. So I've got loads of brands and bands that have, you know, when you're an early adopter, you know, I love it when people have similar tastes to me, but. But, you know, it's quite nice to be. To do something different. But wish talk. I'm late to the party.
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B
We do not want legacy to be a niche thing that some grumpy Peter Frank fan out there wants to keep just to himself.
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A
I see how that could be.
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B
I don't know where you're going with this. We think it's great when everyone jumps on a bandwagon and follows the same thing. Please tell your.
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A
Yeah, there you go.
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B
Anyway, we did mention the Salem witch trials, but we should just name check it. Because when most people think about witches or if they grow up watching American tv, which basically we all do, it's just endlessly romanticized and reimagined. There's this kind of cultural obsession with Salem, and of course its roots are in the European witch craze. It was just exported, like many other ideas, many of them not great, across the Atlantic on colonist ships.
- [04:16]
A
Part of that, I think, is to do with new settlers coming into contact with different kinds of ecologies, different weather systems where things seem familiar, but also they don't quite work in the way in which people expect. There's a whole suite of different disease environments. There's a whole way in which a world is being deliberately called a new world. So it's perhaps not surprising that people will be mystified by things they don't quite understand. So women get the thick end of it by being accused of being responsible again, for problems to do with food supply, to do with water, to do with unusual climatic events. That's basically to do with the fact that Europeans don't really know what this world is, that they're dealing with. So that's the important part of it. But what about indigenous cultures and women here in Zafra? Because I know that's something you are interested in and know a lot about. How does that all fit together?
- [05:04]
B
Yeah, I'm so interested in it. And it was a big part of my book, Decolonizing My Body. And, you know, as you mentioned earlier, Peter, one of the challenges is that many indigenous practices are not written, they're oral histories. And so it's difficult to make them accessible. In the same way that all this European writing, which has been carefully documented and archived over centuries, you know, we have created a kind of knowledge economy that prioritizes and elevates the Eurocentric idea of the written record. And it means it's very difficult to put totally deserving indigenous knowledge systems on the same footing. But we do know that when European colonizers went to what they called the New World, they encountered, encountered many indigenous cultures that had women shamans, women leaders, and women who'd occupied healing roles. In many ways, a lot of similarities to what pre Christian Europe looked like. And even Christian Europe, as we saw, those ideas didn't die, but they had to start becoming hidden. And the other challenge is that where there are written accounts of these indigenous cultures, they're usually written basically by white men through a very Western Christian male gaze. And as we saw in the last episode, that gaze is unbelievably disparaging, critical, even terrified of the power that these shamans, women healers, have. And it's interpreted by these Western colonizers as demonic, essentially. And, you know, again, these are women who are healing, but healing gives them power. And, you know, the power of life is connected to the power of death. The power to heal is connected to. To the power of illness. And so this is all part of the mix of things that Europeans find unfamiliar, scary, primitive in their imagination, because, of course, they think that they have a kind of inherent superiority. So they're not meeting these cultures with curiosity or an idea that they could have something valuable to offer. And again, that's a simplification, because there are individual people who were credibly receptive to these ideas, and there are individuals who stole some of those ideas and repackaged them as their own. But I think, on the whole, it's fair to say, you can tell me if you disagree. Agree, Peter, that most of the Europeans who discovered these, you know, ancient systems for the first time and documented them did so with an ideological bias against them.
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A
I think all history has some ideological Bias. I think that it's not. I think that that's standard. I mean, you know, I think, for what it's worth, even if you've got batshit accounts that write things down that are completely over the top, at least you've got something to go with. So, you know, we have to rely on written sources, and having the provision of them is better than not having them.
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B
I love that. Peter, is there, like, a batshit section in the Bodleian library, like, historical accounts? I feel like, you know, you go.
- [07:48]
A
Back into ancient Mesopotamian stuff and you see what people are, how they're making sacrifices and how they're using divination, and you go, go, look, this is all completely bonkers. But they're all. Obviously, there are people trying to make sense of the world around you, but having those written texts that explain what people are thinking and however mad it might be, or however wrong it might be, or however crazy it might be, at least gives you some insight to it. So when you have Europeans, for example, writing about different countries, regions, belief systems, even if they're misleading, even if they're deliberately with their audience, and the reception of those texts are highly subjective and often extremely unreliable, it gives you at least a framework to understand what it is they're trying to get at and what they're trying to sort of, you know, what they're trying to hold a mirror up to. So all these resources are incredibly helpful and important, you know, for what it's worth. I mean, there's a lot of. Lot of stuff. For example, in Central America, where Bartolome de la Casas, in the early part, first half of the 1500s, was appalled by what he saw about how the Europeans were treating indigenous peoples. And, you know, he's therefore highly venerated across indigenous communities in, for example, in Mexico, because he was someone who was writing down what he could see. And so not everybody is there to legitimize imperial and colonial rule. Lots of people recognize that when you have new hierarchies that come from outside, there are a very small number of winners. And although Europeans in general are the winners, who gets the main prizes tend not to be distributed equally amongst Europeans either, who come from highly hierarchical societies, too. So I think these sources, I think one has to be grateful for the fact that we have them, because they do also allow you to read between the lines, even the ones that are spicy and tricky and dangerous, because otherwise you're just in the blind of saying, we've got oral traditions that we can pick up in the 21st century or written down in the last 50, 60, 70 years. And sometimes they're not written down accurately either. So what gets recorded and by whom is kind of one of the big challenges in history. But, you know, we train young historians. We try to recognize that you've got to be careful with the source material, whatever it is, whoever's written it, rather than just take things at face value. And I think generally, people who read things today or in the past, any period of time, are less credulous than perhaps we think. And just because people write things down doesn't mean that people believe it, and it certainly doesn't mean everybody shares the same opinion.
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B
The things that is so interesting is when you see people who in theory disparage these traditions, but in reality need them because they're so effective. So if you look at the example of the era of enslavement in the Caribbean, where you have these white European plantation owners in Caribbean countries, you know, where they own enslaved people, they're managing these lucrative plantations, they are getting sick with tropical diseases that they are not well equipped to treat, but they haven't been exposed before. They haven't developed techniques. And so what you find is that they actually end up seeking the expertise of indigenous people, of enslaved Africans or descendants of enslaved Africans who are bringing their own indigenous traditions, and they're often actually quite successful. That's actually the story of Mary Seacole, who, you know, is now remembered as this incredible doctress who had these African healing traditions She's. She'd inherited from her African ancestors in Jamaica. But she was so effective at treating things like cholera, healing wounds. And it was so interesting that, you know, the British army, who were kind of like the epitome of like a colonial organization, favored her family's home because it was a more reliable place to heal and receive treatment that was likely to work. Then even some of the most prestigious surgeons coming from Britain sent their patients to her knowing that she had the knowledge that was needed. So it's really interesting to compare the accounts of these practices versus people's behavior. And they often voted with their feet. And when you're sick, you're going to do what you think works, you know, regardless of what your priority ideology, maybe. But I think it's really important to acknowledge the legacy of that disapproval. Because if you look at Jamaica, for example, obr, which is kind of the name for these African spiritual healing traditions that were brought over by enslaved people, is still illegal in Jamaica. It's still illegal. In a colonial era. British Law because the British feared this knowledge. You know, they feared its ability to cure in ways they couldn't manage or control. They feared its ability to spiritually organize and galvanize, enslave people, that it could encourage uprisings and rebellions on plantations. And so they banned it. But then the idea of it being dangerous and kind of anti Christian kind of infiltrated mainstream Jamaican culture. And so now, you know, a century after the abolition almost of enslavement, and decades after Jamaica became independent from Britain, it is still a crime to practice OBR in Jamaica.
- [12:43]
A
I mean, I guess one of the things is to do with European convictions that, that they are bringing in, spreading civilization despite, you know, doing that through mass enslavement and transportation of 18 million people across the Atlantic. Some of it is also to do with disease environments that Europeans don't have great experience of. And so how you blend traditional medicine with ways that have catered with diseases that people in West Africa and then the Caribbean, southern parts of the United States have grown up with and are familiar with, it comes as a real challenge because Europeans think that they are the font of all knowledge. And so the idea that there are things that could be learned from people of different skin color, from different backgrounds, different regions, is a challenge for Europeans. No question about that. There's a lot of soul searching about how is it that there are different ways of doing things, and particularly through different kinds of medical interventions that are superior to European ones. And it won't surprise listeners to know that that all gets hushed up and pushed out of the carpet because it raises some difficult home truths that the kind of the ecosystem that's created by an enslaving culture and an imperialist culture finds it difficult to think that it doesn't have all of the answers. But these kinds of things, I think they exist within different regions as well. So it's not just a European problem within Africa. One of the things that you know, again, much better than me, afwa, is that often we treat Africa and West Africa in particular, as kind of single contiguous units and places that everybody's the same. There are huge regional variations in the ways in which Africans treat each other, how they have different levels of medical expertise and what kind of expertise you need, because different environments require different kinds of interventions. And I think one of the challenges is therefore to work out which part of the world we're looking at in which period. So when we come back, afraid I'd really like to talk about and to hear what you think about contemporary inequalities around reproductive health, around witchcraft, around women, around medical interventions, and around the legacies of colonization and colonialism, about how that all fits together into a sort of single package.
- [15:04]
C
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A
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B
So before the break, Peter, I mentioned that in England, pagans, and that's a very loaded term, but people who identify with polytheistic pre Christian religious ideas that don't even center necessarily gods, but are interested in the elements and the power of natural seasons and rivers, forests, trees. They are the fastest growing religious group in England at the moment. The most recent census found that the number of people who identify as pagans in England and Wales rose from 57,000 in 2011 to 74,000. And they cluster in some parts of the country, in Cornwall and Somerset, in particular in the in the southwest and the west country. And in 2024, the British media announced it is officially cool to be a witch. So I was wondering if you're interested.
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A
There you go. That must be true. That must be true.
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B
Then if the British media says it, I mean, who could question. But I was wondering if you're interested in hearing about my healer, Peter.
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A
Very much so. Very much so. Yes.
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B
Well, her name is Sackley and she's incredible. She's descended from a lineage of healers in Benin, the Republic of Benin in West Africa, which is very famous for its traditional religious and spiritual practices. It gave birth to what most people know as voodoo, which was of course transferred during the transatlantic slave trade to Haiti and other Caribbean nations. But the. The origin is in Benin and Ethnic groups associated in that part of West Africa. So that's Sackley's heritage. And she specializes in what she describes as holding sacred nurturing space. And that includes body work, massage and aromatherapy, and doula support. She's a doula as well. But how I came to work with her is that a friend of mine whose Igbo heritage had a teenage girl who just started her period, a daughter. And she wanted to offer her daughter the kind of initiation that would have existed in her culture before colonialism and does still exist. But, you know, these kind of traditional rituals were regarded with huge suspicion by missionaries and the colonial authorities. And so they kind of went underground. And many of us. And I say us because my mother's from Ghana, you know, of West African heritage, where we also, in my indigenous culture, had similar rituals and rites of passage. I wasn't raised with them. You know, they weren't visible to me at all. I may have heard the odd story, like, my grandmother told me that when she started her period in the village in Ghana, an elder gave her an egg. You know, that was kind of like the last remaining vestige of what would have once been a real ritual and period of initiation. So my friend sought out Sackley to. To offer her daughter the kind of ceremony that had been lost. And I. We were all invited, her friends and, you know, mothers of other daughters a similar age. And I thought I was going for my daughter, that it would be really useful for her to kind of learn to treasure and cherish and see the power in her body and her menstruation. But actually, I mean, I think our daughters found it fine. But it was. We, the mothers, who were in pieces, really moved, because I think we all started questioning how would our lives have been different if we'd been raised with some of these indigenous ideas that teach you that, you know, having your period isn't like a problem to hide and try and, you know, get rid of with painkillers. It's actually a. It's part of the kind of ritual of life. And it's. It's associated with the power of reproduction, you know, the. The superhuman nature of being a woman that you can actually create and give birth to life. And that if you don't learn to cherish that power while you have it, then as you age as a woman and go through menopause, you. You've kind of missed out on celebrating a power that you have until it's gone, and then you start to mourn it. So that was how I first met Sackley. And since then I've been working with her and she's just incredible. And it's really hard to kind of in a European language and with the concepts that I was educated with really describe what it is she does and how it works. But it does feel like a real connection between the spiritual world, between beliefs that are kind of beyond what we can see and fully explain and your physical wellbeing. And you know, people often see her because they've got physical problems, you know, they've got joint pain, they've got inflammation or they're having really painful periods, you know, or they're struggling to conceive and then mental well being and it's, you know, the way that she kind of cares for you and connects the dots and creates an atmosphere of healing and centering your well being is, I can only really describe it as supernatural because it has such a profound effect. And it's funny because, you know, I look back in my life and I think there would have been a time where I would have been very skeptical of rituals like this because you know, it's not based on peer reviewed science in the European language of the academy as I've been raised. But over time I think I've realized that there are limits to what that system can really do for me as a woman. And I'm, I'm not like an anti vaxxer medical refusing it. You know, I'll still go to the doctor or take western medicine for some things but I think it's, I've over time started to really open my mind to the idea that millennia of my female ancestors knew this stuff and knew the power it had and what it could offer and by kind of throwing it all out in this era of colonialism and so called European enlightenment values, we may have lost some really powerful ideas that could serve us.
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A
I think listening to you talk afwa, you know about Sackli, it's also what is so compelling is that it's holistic, you know that you're getting a, a full range of different services where you're joining up the idea of the mind, of the body, of wellness, of health, of illness and sort of having something that's, that's being delivered to you or working together with someone who, who you've built a relationship with that you, someone you trust. And to some extent, you know, I don't know, you know, because I'm, you would see things probably slightly different way as, as a European from being European background, you know, and also because I work, I have worked on Things like traditional Chinese medicine and. And how that's understood, which has a very, again, a very different genesis and origin and different play out in the modern world to how we do things in Europe. You know, I think it's that what. What I hear when you're talking about that is those trust levels of somebody who is within your community, who you've known for a long time, who you can share things with, are very personal, and that works in everything, in every which way and. And probably the way which we all live today in cities and with our neighbors, who we have reasonably little to deal with. We don't know them so well. We have very busy lives. We tend to be serving our own purposes and doing our own things rather than working in the communities. Obviously, with respect to everybody listening, I think it's that those bonds of someone who you can turn to, who's not your direct family but who knows you well, are worth their weight in gold. So I think that one can't overvalue the importance of trust relationships and of ones where, you know, there's no exploitation involved, you know, apart from perhaps there might be payments. But that's a different story to someone who's taking stuff off you. So finding people who can navigate you through ups and downs can talk you through whether it's through counseling or whether it's through medical advice or through friendship advice or just being there and someone you could talk to to restabilise. I think it's a very healthy thing. I think it's a very important thing in our world to not feel embarrassed about problems that you might have and to be willing to share. The challenge is, can you find someone you can share them with? And so someone who perhaps sits within a community or someone you see on a regular or haphazard basis are doing something that's quite holistic because they're giving a kind of range of different pieces of advice and of shoulders that you can hold onto that are. That make them really important members of communities. So I wonder whether that's also another way of looking at it.
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B
I think community is such a key word here, and it's actually changed my ideas about credentials. So, you know, I think if you're raised in a European tradition, there's this idea of credentializing. You need to go to the right establishment and have your skills vetted by an institution that kind of regulates and.
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A
Hey, don't knock my day job. Don't knock my day job. You know, we're very proud of that.
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B
That has a role to Play.
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A
But thank you.
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B
Traditional healers are people who are recognized by the community in which they live as competent to provide care by using physical, whether vegetable, animal, mineral substances and spiritual therapies, as well as manual techniques and exercises. So I guess in a way they are peer reviewed, right? They're reviewed by their peers. Their knowledge is accepted and experienced by the community and their credibility comes from the work that they do and the services that they provide and the value that offers. And I think that's often lost, you know, so now it's kind of like, did you study here and did you get this certificate? But actually for me, and Sacli is actually credentialized, you know, both in her traditional community in Benin. She has been through the initiations, which are grueling and actually really demanding. And she's also got loads of qualifications in the uk. But that's, that's not why I, I trust her. It's because of the work that I've seen and experienced her do. And I think that's actually an issue. And I've seen some real disputes actually on social media from people who are grounded in indigenous healing cultures, criticizing kind of social media influencers who are holding themselves out as witches, saying it's not like a self appointed thing that you just decide is your identity. You know, it's not this like individualistic pursuit of a brand. It's actually born out of the service you offer in community. You can't strip that away, you can't separate the two. And you know, I think that's one of the kind of perils of trying to communicate this in this very individualistic, brand oriented Eurocentric world. But I just want to drop this fact though. The World Health Organization says that three quarters of the world's population still depends on traditional remedies for their health. So not as an extra, but as something they absolutely depend on. And of those traditional health workers, 70% percent are women. And in many communities, it's not well paid, it doesn't come with Instagram followers or endorsement deals. It is just labor you do in your community because your community needs it. And that has been the case from time immemorial. And it's so interesting how much it is still the case in the world today.
- [26:50]
A
Well, you know, There are fantastic NGOs like Survival International that draw attention to indigenous peoples and often the problems they're facing because of, you know, logging, mining, interventions in the land, or just the ways in which they get pushed to one side by the sort of insistent machines of all sorts of different forms of exploitation. But one of the things that indigenous groups have done very well is to foster ideas about healthcare that sometimes have given breakthroughs for Western sciences and Western pharma to be able to work out how to manufacture and scale. And in fact, again, as part of some of the other things I do in my day job, one of the things is about why is it that we in the west and we have good ideas, we tend to try to patent them and to then monetize them, whereas often other parts of the world, you know, if you find a cure for something, why would you not just share it widely? And sometimes I get into discussions, debates with friends and colleagues of mine about, well, it costs money to develop things and therefore then he's been rewarded for doing so. But that's not how other other societies necessarily work. And in particular where you've got very good understanding of the properties of plants and of animals, then one of the challenges is how do you share that in a way that is equitable. And also some things like traditional Chinese medicines, they have views about species that are highly endangered. And so it's how do you find that balance? That's right. About things like whether it's rhino horns or rare animals that get killed for the kinds of materials that are supposedly give those qualities. There's always a tension point in this, but as you say, AFWR, when you have 70% of the world's population that don't rely on pharmaceuticals delivered from bottles or given by gps, but for traditional medicines, and that proportion you mentioned of 70% of medical practitioners being women, that's not what most people listening to this podcast will probably guess and think. Because if you're listening to podcasts by default, you're probably somewhere with a decent Internet connection and probably living in a city, although not necessarily. But if you're living in a high income country, your experiences of everything are extremely different to what the majority of people on this planet go through on a day to day basis. And I think it's important not to say that one is better than the other. I mean personally, sanitation, healthcare, all those things allow us to live much longer lives in some parts of the world. But we also know that the ways in which we live in the west can be extremely damaging. Air quality in developed nations and middle income countries can be absolutely catastrophic and lead to measurable declines on life. Whereas if you live within your environmental envelope, you respect nature, then of course you're going to live healthier and longer.
- [29:26]
B
You know, look at the diseases of despair as it's often called, you know, the crisis of loneliness and poor mental health, suicide.
- [29:33]
A
People.
- [29:33]
B
We have access to technology that's unparalleled in history, unimaginable even a generation ago. But people seem to be so alienated, so unhappy. And I think that's partly to do with the holistic nature of these things. Healing and spiritual practices that you know, for the whole history of humanity were practiced in community and that have fallen away. So I think that it's really important to understand that history and ask critically and you know, I'm not telling anyone what to think or what to do or who to see, but I think it's really important to ask yourself what could be in my history or in our history that we've lost? That could be useful, you know, and for me the test is, is it useful? Does it do good? If so, you know, find out about it, look into it, be open minded, understand where it comes from, what it's connected to. And this is not. I've got friends who will pay £10,000 for an energy reading from a guru somewhere that they have to fly to and do something. And you know, I'm open minded person but I think like when you lead with the cost and the prestige of it, you probably missing something because that's not for millennia how the most effective healing practices has worked.
- [30:43]
A
I mean you're, you're very balanced. Afraid while I'm talking to you is, you know, you're very open minded about what you're willing to embrace, but also you don't have to embrace and shed. You know, it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's, it's how you blend those together. But I think we do live in a world of polarization where people often will say they only will, you know, you're anti vaxxer, for example, or you're anti science or there are too many experts or I'm not going to trust anybody at all. It's a difficult line to tread, I think, isn't it about, about being open minded, being able to embrace things and being able to recognize that you can borrow from different, different traditions everywhere. And perhaps there's something you can learn from all of them rather than prioritizing one over the other. Thank you for listening to Legacy. Please don't forget to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast player. And you can also watch all of our episodes on YouTube so make sure you're subscribed there too.
- [31:31]
B
And of course we're on all the socials, all the links are in the show notes for this episode or just search Legacy Podcast thank you so much for listening. I'm Afua Hirsch.
- [31:41]
A
I'm Peter Frankopan, and we'll see you for the next episode of Legacy.
- [32:04]
C
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- [32:31]
B
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