Karen Freeman McNiffalo (6:52)

Hi Popak. How are you?

Michael Popak (6:54)

You did an amazing job as always with our fill in guest anchor Lisa Graves. I always love when you guys are together. I think it's so fabulous. But I'm glad I'm back and I'm glad you and I can do our show together.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (7:07)

Yeah, me too. I love Lisa. I love doing it with her. But of course I'm always happy to be with with you like I have been every Wednesday.

Michael Popak (7:13)

Right. I tell people it's like literally we've never missed a show Wednesday or a Saturday show in almost six years. And you know, that's a badge of honor. But it's really because of our audience. We wouldn't do it if it wasn't for them. And we're so pleased that we have an audience to do it for. Let's start with the shambolic State of the Union address. I knew he was going to get off script because he can't read. I mean it was that rumor that he's was there even a, is there even a monitor there for him to read all teleprompter for him to read off of and, and I did a little bit of a preview about like, let's just say the, the economy and the lies that he would have to tell in order to have anything positive to say about the Trump economy. The good news is nobody believes him. We had a great counter programming event. You know, 2 or 3 million people watched just on Midas alone. Katie Fang and Joy Reid, you know, out in the cold with all the other Democrats that wanted to contribute free for the people's state of the union. See that the state of the union of the people is strong. It's the Trump administration that's weak and craven and needs to go. But the polling numbers here are atrocious for Donald Trump. He is a failed administration. 67% of the American people believe that. 75% of independents believe that he's lost the young podcast bro vote that helped sweep him into office. You know, all the Joe Rogan and other fans that, you know, the 25 and under voter, 30 and under male voter, they're all 25 of them want their vote back. So he's not fooling anybody with this, with this presentation. Before you comment, let's play a clip of the worst of the highlights of Donald Trump and then you and I can kick it around before we bring in Abigail Spam Burger in rebuttal. Let's play it.

Donald Trump (clip) (9:19)

A short time ago we were a dead country. Now we are the hottest country anywhere in the world.

Michael Popak (9:25)

The hottest.

Donald Trump (clip) (9:30)

First year of the second term should be my third term, but strange things happen. I took prescription prescription drugs. A very big part of health care country has never been stronger. My first ten months I ended eight wars including Cambodia. Isn't it funny? Sick people. Cambodia and Thailand, Pakistan and India would have been a nuclear war. 35 million people said the prime minister of Pakistan would have died if it were not for my involvement. Kosovo, we cut a record number of job killing regulations and in one year we have lifted 2.4 million Americans. A record off of food stamps. Not be necessary. It's already time tested and approved. And as time goes by, I believe the tariffs paid for by foreign countries will, like in the past, substantially replace the modern day system of income tax. Taking a great financial burden off the people that I love. Now it's just taken off. One of the primary reasons for our country's stunning economic turnaround, the biggest in history where the Dow Jones broke 50,000 four years ahead of schedule and the S and P hit 7,000 where it wasn't supposed to do it for many years were tariffs. I used These tariffs took in hundreds of billions of dollars to make great deals for our country, both economic. All Democrats, every single one of them, voted against these really important and very necessary massive tax cuts. They wanted.

Mackenzie (Gold Belly and GoFundMe ads) (11:34)

Wow.

Michael Popak (11:34)

I don't even feel like I just wandered into something. All right, Karen, take it from there. I'll break down the economic lies in a minute.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (11:45)

Yeah, I mean, the State of the Union. I watched the whole thing was really surprising in a lot of ways. But first, let's just talk a little bit about what is the State of the Union. The State of the Union is mandated, actually, in the Constitution. It's Article two, Section three of the United States Constitution. And it requires the President to quote from time to time, give to the Congress information of the State of the Union and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient. So he's actually required to give this from time to time. And his was the longest ever apparently given. I don't know if that something is a badge of honor, but what was really surprising to me was when you look at, and you break it down, what he talked about in terms of informing the American people in Congress about what's going on. What the State of Our Union is, is a very small portion of his several hour show that he put on last night. He really only focused for a very, very short period of time, stuff about the economy, tariffs, et cetera. Talked a little bit about immigration, he talked about some of his other issues. He took credit. That had really nothing to do with him, like crime going down. I mean, he has nothing to do with crime, frankly, neither does the federal government. Crime going down has a lot to do and mostly to do with local law enforcement. And that's a clear thing that he took credit for that he had nothing to do with. He took credit for things like bringing the Olympics and FIFA to the United States. Again, nothing to do with him. But he didn't talk about the State of Our Union very much. The rest of it, most of it, the bulk of it, felt like a combination to me of a Jerry Springer show meets an Oprah Winfrey Show. So the Jerry Springer part was things like surprise. I just. He brought someone in and surprised someone from. They were in jail for the longest time, or they were, and now here they are because I released them. That was sort of a bizarre thing to do. For show, he had the US Olympic male hockey team come on and presented the goalie with one of the highest honors, Congressional Medal, Medal of Honor. He, you know, again, nice, great. They were great. They're amazing, right? The men's hockey team, I mean, a lot of people are, you know, several of them protested and didn't show up. And then the women's hockey team didn't show up. But, but you know, you can still love hockey and still love them despite their, their partying on our dime with Cash Patel, the FBI director, in one of the weirdest clips I've ever seen of him, you know, acting like a crazy person in the locker room. But you know, he just really, it was like an Oprah show where he's like, you know, giving out medals and awards. You know, this guy is 100 years old and he flew all these combat missions and he gets an award and he was a true hero and he should have gotten one. But again, what does that have to do with the State of our Union? Or a helicopter pilot who was injured or a little girl who was hit by a car who. Or hit by a truck. It was tragic and terrible what happened to her. But again, all these really feel good stories because these are true heroic Americans who are absolutely worthy of being recognized. And frankly, I loved seeing them. And even everybody applauded for so many of these individuals cause they deserved it. But it felt like such a big deflection away from what's really going on in this country. Because the purpose of last night was to talk to the American people and tell them about the state of our Union. And what he did say felt like the biggest gaslighting exercise in the history of States of the Union. I mean, he could say all he wants how great the economy is and how he's driven down prices and inflation, but everybody who goes grocery shopping or puts gas in their car or pays their electric bill knows the truth. It's actually not true. You don't need fact checkers to go and tell the American people what's going on. Everybody knows it. He didn't mention Epstein survivors who were there, which I thought was appalling. He didn't mention anything. He talked about immigration, but he didn't mention anything about Alex Preddy, Renee Goode or 5 year old Liam who he took into custody. He didn't mention anything about what's going on there. And I thought it was really telling that he didn't mention other than his son in law, his movie star wife and Steve Witkoff and Marco Rubio got a big shout out. Other than that he in passing mentioned Vance, who's going to head up some fraud task force. He didn't mention a single cabinet member. He didn't Mention Kristi Noem. He didn't mention Pam Bondi. He didn't mention Pete Hegseth. He didn't mention any of his cabinet or the people who were sitting right there. And I thought that was really telling as well. He is clearly, I think, realizing that they're responsible for the shit show that is our country right now. And he tried, you know, to lie to all of us, but people know what's really going on. And I. That's what I sort of took away. It was a very kind of cringy, cringy night. I thought he really knows. He act like someone who's kind of losing, and he knows he's losing, and so he's trying really hard to make people feel good because we have these American heroes and giving out these awards. But, I mean, half the Supreme Court justices, including his biggest supporters, right, the MAGA ones, half of them didn't show up. Again, I didn't understand kind of any rhyme or reason there. It wasn't like the liberals didn't show up and the Democrats did. I mean, and the MAGA wing did. It was like, you know, it was a mixture. But he criticized the Supreme Court justices, which was, you know, I think, atrocious and appalling and really disrespectful. And he just lied the whole time. He said some, really things that were really terrible, too. He basically made it seem like all foreigners are murderers and violent criminals. And that's just a terrible message. And it was just offensive, to be honest. You know, what he did say, that was not giving out hero awards was offensive to me. And lies and gaslighting, and that's the best he could say, even in his own world of lies where he spins things, if that's the best he could say. That to me, is really telling, because I thought he was gonna go on and on. I mean, he did take credit for eight wars that he claims he solved. Half of them I didn't even know we were in or that anyone was in, or it was in conflict. But it was just bizarre to me. His. His whole. His whole ramp rant. What about you?

Michael Popak (19:00)

Yeah, let's start with the economy. The economy is in the. And he knows it. He tried to blame Biden again. This is his economy. It's a full year in. And everything he said about the starting point of Joe Biden's economy is. Is false. Income is down. The gross domestic product, a measure of the. The productivity of our economy, service and goods and agriculture is down. It's actually in deceleration. Job and job creation is way down. He said he'd make millions and millions and millions of jobs. When he was campaigning, he made 180,000 jobs in a year. Biden made 1.5 million jobs in a year. Inflation is up. Unemployment is up. The percentage of Americans that hold jobs is down. We know it, as you said, because we're experiencing it in real, in real time. His lies about investments that he was able to finagle with tariffs, tariffs that have now been shot down. He keeps fudging the numbers. $18 trillion of investments. His own website says 9 trillion. Prior reporting was 5 trillion. And there's doubts about whether there'll be any investment made by foreign countries, especially now that the tariffs have been ripped down and where that money is coming from. Sure, South Korea built a data center out in the middle of America, but that was off of the Biden, a Biden chips act that wasn't a Trump. He takes credit for things that Biden, the seeds that Biden planted. And then he looks in his backyard and says, look, apple trees. Yeah, the apple trees are not yours. They were planted by the predecessor. And then you look at the. His claim that tariffs are going to replace income tax. Okay, tariffs at best or worst, if the Supreme Court hadn't ripped it down. And shout out to Amy Coney Barrett, who got attacked personally by Donald Trump after she ruled properly that the statute and constitution don't allow Donald Trump to tax and tariff his way into economic ruin. She showed up, you know, even though he called it out and said her family should be embarrassed by her. Good luck on birthright citizenship, Donald. Good luck on Lisa Cook Federal Reserve firing. Good luck on lots of other things now that I think you're starting to lose some of the MAGA six like Gorsuch and Amy Cody Barrett. But this whole notion that $300 billion worth of tariffs is going to replace $4.67 trillion worth of collected taxes. I'm not a, I didn't go to. I didn't go to. I didn't graduate from a mathematical academy. But I do know that 300 billion is a lot less than 4.7 trillion. You'd have to, you'd have to raise tariffs to 150% and create another 200 countries for the math to work. So the math with Donald Trump never works because he's just making cheap political points, hoping that we all, that we all move on the ending of eight wars. Ask Hamas and people in Israel whether they think the war is over. Ask the Ukrainians and the Russians Especially Ukrainians, whether they think the war is over. I mean, Cambodia and Thailand. I didn't even know there was a war. He claims credit for wars that he solved that. I didn't even know there was a war. India was really going to use nuclear weapons against its border country, its border rival, Pakistan. I mean, it's just the. The fantasy world in which Donald Trump lives is just remarkable. Now it gives him cheap applause lines. You know, it gave just the. The Republicans in the House some things to laugh at, you know, oh, it should have been. It should really be my third term, you know, as if, again, you know, in his spare time, rather than trying to wreck the hopes and dreams of Americans, he should go read the Constitution about that. You know, he can't even get basic facts right. He said the American revolution started in 1776. It started in 1775. They declared independence in 1776. I mean, just like stubborn little things like facts always seem to elude his grasp. But, but the. Look, the, The Democrats and the American people are wise to it. Do I think this changes the poll numbers? Do I think people go, hey, maybe I was wrong. Maybe it's a much more successful presidency than I ever thought based on that rambling speech. No effing way. And I think in. I love the contrast, two hours of Donald Trump's logaria throwing up on the American people. You know, again, 17 minutes of Virginia governor and superstar, white hot superstar Abigail Spanberger in rebuttal. Let's play that clip tonight as we

Mackenzie (Gold Belly and GoFundMe ads) (24:01)

watched our nation's lawmakers gather for a joint session of Congress. We did not hear the truth from our president. So let's speak plainly and honestly. And let me ask you, the American people watching at home, three questions. Is the President working to make life more affordable for you and your family? Is the President working to keep Americans safe both at home and abroad? Is the President working for you? We all know the answer is no. In his speech tonight, the President did what he always does. He lied, he scapegoated, and he distracted. And he offered no real solutions to our nation's pressing challenges, so many of which he is actively making worse. He tries to divide us. He tries to enrage us, to pit us against one another, neighbor against neighbor. And sometimes he succeeds. And so you have to ask, who benefits from his rhetoric, his policies, his actions, the short list of laws he's pushed through this Republican Congress? Somebody must be benefiting. He's enriching himself, his family, his friends. The scale of the corruption is unprecedented. There's the COVID up of the Epstein files, the crypto scams. Cozying up to foreign princes for airplanes and billionaires for ballrooms. Putting his name and face on buildings all over our nation's capital. This is not what our founders envisioned, not by a long shot. So I'll ask again, is the President working for you? We all know the answer is no. And yet our president has sent poorly trained federal agents into our cities where they have arrested and detained American citizens and people who aspire to be Americans. And they have done it without a warrant. They have ripped nursing mothers away from their babies. They have sent children, a little boy in a blue bunny hat, children, to far off detention centers. And they have killed American citizens in our streets. And they have done it all with their faces masked from accountability. Every minute spent sowing fear is a minute not spent investigating murders, crimes against children or criminals, defrauding seniors of their life savings. Our president told us tonight that we are safer because these agents arrest mothers and detain children. Think about that. Our broken immigration system is something to be fixed, not an excuse for unaccountable agents to terrorize our communities.

Michael Popak (27:09)

Wow. Such a powerful, powerful presentation. And I want to get your reaction to it. You were one of the first people in the midas world that saw her speech and, and, and had some great, great insight about it. But, and we'll talk about that. We'll also pick up with the decision by the Trump administration Department of justice, not to pursue criminal prosecution against. Good idea again, six members of Congress. Donald Trump lying to the American people again about the Epstein files, including making sure that his name was scrubbed off of some pretty scandalous allegations against him that were on a PowerPoint apparently to be investigated and yet are not being investigated. And we'll talk more about that as well. And, and the rest, the way to support what we do here on Legal AF, you're here. You enjoy the Legal AF podcast. Come over to Legal AF, the YouTube channel. Hit that free subscribe button. Hit the paid subscribe button. Even better, we have no outside investors. 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Karen, give the audience from your perspective how effective you think Abigail Spamberger, governor of Virginia, was new, newly elected governor. She had been in the house and and what your takeaway is from the you know, from a, an advocate, somebody who argues for a living like you and I do as lawyers. How effective do you think her 17 minutes was against Donald Trump's two and a half hours of ramble?

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (34:05)

I mean, look, I'm a, I'm a lifelong public servant. I spent 30 years in the public sector And I'm the first person who gets the chills, you know, when the Star Spangled Banner plays and, you know, all the pomp and circumstance, and I love this country and I'm a total patriot. And she just gave me all those feelings. Right. You know, she started with talking about the historical. The historical perspective of the room she was in, how that very room is where so much of our nation's beginnings started, right in the early 1700s, before there was a Constitution, before there was a Declaration of Independence. That's where Virginia. That's where so much of our nation began, in that very room. And I just, you know, she just, like, set the tone of really what is going on and where we are. And she talked about how important really what we're fighting for is. It is for this country. It is because we all ultimately love this country and we all really love what it stands for. And we are all patriots. We've just gotten so divided. And she was just. She talked frankly and told the truth, and she told people exactly what they're experiencing, what they're feeling and what they're hearing. And I just thought, wow, she is the real deal. She is someone you can trust. She's someone you can listen to. And she, I thought, was incredibly effective. You know, she. She didn't just make things like, oh, it's the greatest economy of all time. She backed it up with numbers and statistics and, and talked about real, actual evidence and real, actual facts. And, you know, she didn't just say, oh, no one's ever seen anything like it before. This is the greatest thing ever, the way. The way Trump does. Right. She just kind of told people what's going on. And, and it was, I think, a legitimate state of the union. I think if you want to know the state of our union, listen to her 17 minute rebuttal. And I think we need more of her and more of people like her and Mikey Sherrill, who you said, yeah, when they were both elected and I heard both their speeches, I was like, oh, my God, I had a girl crush on both of them. And they're just great. They're fantastic. And they're the kind of people that I really look up to and think are the future of this country and of this nation. And I think it was incredibly effective. And I'm so gl. Glad and honored that that she did that on behalf of the. Of the American people.

Michael Popak (36:35)

You talk. I totally agree. I love everything about her. The attorney. Up up right now On Legal Half YouTube channel is my interview with The Attorney General of Virginia, who was in the room, just off camera from her, swept in, along with her first black attorney general in the history of Virginia. And we have a really great briefing for our audience about how Virginia is going to lead here. And I joked at the end, I said, well, our first president came from Virginia. Maybe our next one will. And I just kind of left it as to which between the two of them, by the way, they'd be a great team together if that ever were to happen. But you mentioned that the Epstein survivors were in the room. One of them was my client, Lisa Phillips, and of course, Trump and his administration. No one in the FBI, no one in the Department of Justice has ever met with them, has ever spoken to them. It's very hard to conduct an investigation when you. We haven't met with the victims. Trump won't acknowledge them. He won't meet with them. And he was too busy celebrating the. The old boys network of the men's Olympic team, which kind of went down a few notches for me. You know, I'm a. I'm a kid that was 14 when the miracle on the ice happened. And, you know, Aruzioni scores the. Scores the goal, and the first time, second time in American history, we win the gold medal. And, you know, and then you see these yahoos, you know, celebrating with cash Patel swigging, swinging out of a bottle and wearing a gold medal around his neck. Stolen valor. Once again, this administration. And then allowing, you know, frankly, nobody stood up for the female Olympic team, which is actually better than the male Olympic team in terms of their success, and allow Donald Trump to get away with yet another misogynist comment about, oh, I'll have to invite the women, too, you know, oh, I'll be impeached if I don't. It's like, oh, my God, every. Everything he says that comes out of his mouth, I've got to put my hand. If not that my daughter's old enough to listen, I got to put my hands around my daughter's ears, you know, because he's so immoral and so disgusting, which the American people are on to now. That's. That's a good thing. The American people are onto it. So the Epstein files. We got a new development related to the Epstein files.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (38:44)

By the way, before you go on to the Epstein files, I just have to talk about the hockey team, because you have to understand, my family is a huge hockey family. We're not huge sports people. Certainly I'm not a huge sports person. The only sport I Love is hockey. And we watch a lot of hockey. My husband played hockey, and every member of my family loves hockey. And so leading up to this, there's this great kind of docu series called Face off. And we watched every episode where they talk about the life story of so many of the people, so many of the Olympians who played both on the Canadian and the USA team. And so many of them are such good guys. And they talked about the Gaudreau brothers who were tragically killed last year. And it was just a lot went into this. And I agree with you, one of the greatest movies of all time was Miracle on Ice, and I remember that, too, the 1980 U.S. olympic hockey team. So this felt like that kind of a win. It was really exciting for us. And I agree with you that what happened with Kash Patel and then Donald Trump and this team was so disappointing and so upsetting on an emotional level, because really, if you know the story of Johnny Goudreau and Johnny Hockey and just these players and what good guys they are and where they come from. And Jack Hughes, who scored the winning goal in overtime for the United States, his bomb actually is the coach, one of the coaches of the women's team. And the women's team chose not to go. I mean, there's just a lot there. And so it was personally disappointing that they didn't stand up. And like I said, five of them didn't show up. And I respect that. But it was really upsetting on a personal level. The whole. The men's hockey team.

Michael Popak (40:39)

Trump wrapped himself in a flag wrapped around the Olympic team, and they allowed him to make them into props. And. Or they agreed and they thought it was funny. His locker room humor, which is not funny. Attacking women and demeaning them. And the other thing for me is we've got new reporting that came out today that Cash Patel is so busy running around spending taxpayer dollars. That trip cost $100,000 on just the personal jet. So busy running around on the personal jet that it's interfering with investigations. There's new reporting that they were. They were slow on the Brown University shooting and the Charlie Kirk shooting because he's so busy with his girlfriend and her other things running around. Personal jet.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (41:25)

Right. They couldn't.

Michael Popak (41:26)

Business.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (41:27)

Right. They only have. The FBI has two jets, apparently. And he's out running around doing personal things like. Like this and not showing up. Not so they can't show up to crime scenes.

Michael Popak (41:37)

And by the way, not that we wanted it to happen. I don't. Democrats are Not. Are. Not the grim reaper. I don't wish this on there, but could you imagine if something tragic had happened at the same moment, around the same moment as Cash Patel was swigging beer or champagne with a gold medal and partying with them? How about if we had mass shooting? How about if we had another Charlie Kirk on the other side? How about fill in the blank and where is he? That. That's just. That's why you don't do that. And from a prosecutor standpoint and from a, you know, a federal lawyer standpoint, we have a name for what we're watching with this administration besides kleptocracy. It's called theft of honest service. They're not doing their job, but yet they're getting all.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (42:21)

I couldn't help but wonder while he was in that locker room doing that whole, you know, beer thing, and it was just repulsive, actually, watching him, I couldn't help but wonder, how does Savannah Guthrie and her family feel that he's not out there trying to help find her mother, you know? Right. Instead, he's partying, you know, with the. With the Olympia. I mean, it's the connection between the

Michael Popak (42:43)

FBI and the hockey team.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (42:44)

Right, Exactly.

Michael Popak (42:45)

He's just using this. This is. This is a kid who never got any attention from his parents or some other psychological thing happened to him, and now he gets to be. Now the high quarterback is paying attention to the little nerdy kid in the corner. Oh, I get to be in the locker room and celebrate like, I played hockey. Like, no, you get to be the FBI director that you're woefully unqualified for. But, you know, don't. You know, it's like saying, I got to go backstage. Like, no, actually, you don't. Why are you there? Right. Why are you in the locker room?

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (43:19)

So true.

Michael Popak (43:20)

So it's just disgusting.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (43:21)

Anyway, thank you for letting me go on my little hockey, but I just

Michael Popak (43:25)

learned about you, which I did not know about.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (43:27)

I was just so upset about this,

Michael Popak (43:29)

because I think we should change the lower third tonight. I think it should be breaking. Karen Freeman Ignipolo reveals that she is a secret hockey fan her whole life.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (43:42)

Hockey is just. It's actually a really great sport.

Michael Popak (43:45)

It is. It's one of my favorite live sports,

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (43:47)

and the players are just these humble good guys as opposed to, like, whatever. It's just of all the. All the professional athletes and fans. I just love hockey. So my whole family.

Michael Popak (43:59)

And then they blew it. And by the way, he had plenty of opportunities to celebrate other things. Well, if we're, if we're in the mode of. I need to distract from my State of the Union and my woeful performance and you want to even stay in the Olympics. How about Lindsey Vaughn, who almost lost the leg trying to persevere as an American patriot wearing the USA Journal? How about Michaela Shiffrid and winning her. Her gold medal to kind of rewrite a lot of women besides the women's hockey team, in addition to them that you could have pointed to instead of like the, the root. I just.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (44:35)

Alyssa Gao, like, you know, the skater. It was just, it was. I love her, love her. That was amazing.

Michael Popak (44:42)

Won't even acknowledge her.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (44:43)

No, of course not. Of course not. But she was unbelievable. By the way, it reminds me of the time I learned that you were basically a pro dart player. Right?

Michael Popak (44:52)

There's the. Yeah, in college. I played on the Metropolitan Dart League.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (44:56)

And what was your, what was your dart playing name again?

Michael Popak (44:58)

Vic. I had my own. I have my own sign in name Vic. Yes.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (45:05)

That's like, that's just, that's. That, that's legal AF gold.

Michael Popak (45:09)

Seriously, that's what you learn. All right, good night, everybody. All right, so let's move with that. Let's move on to Epstein. So we learn now, as we suspected, that Donald Trump, FBI doj, scrubbed references to Donald Trump after lying to the American people. See that this is why Bondi and at least Bondi and Top Blanche are going to be impeached when the Democrats return to office and take over the House because they just lied to the American people on that three page cover letter. Hey, everybody, we're releasing 3 million pages and we didn't do any reduction for any kind, of, any kind of embarrassment factor or because of somebody's political, political role or. Yes, you did, in fact, and this is an allegation, but it made its way to a PowerPoint that apparently got left behind and nobody's investigating the. The npr, of all things, which Donald Trump has tried to crush. Comparing the pile of documents that were produced in the Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell prosecution to what was up on the library available to the public for the Epstein files, the ones that were done, they found a lot of mismatch. They found a lot of things missing, including a material witness for Ghislaine Maxwell, one of which claimed that when she was 13 years old, Donald Trump tried to force her to perform oral sex. She bit him and he assaulted her. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but that is in the pile of Material. And she was a material witness at Even though I'm not sure she took the stand in the Ghislaine Maxwell. She. There's actually a PowerPoint for follow up where that along with other witnesses were who made claims against Donald Trump. There was a PowerPoint about what needed to be followed up by that wasn't. See, now we're back to. And we'll get there again when we get to Judge Cannon. The. It was Joyce Vance, by the way, who wrote the substack article. I knew it would come to me eventually. Joyce Vance put it perfectly. The DOJ is Donald Trump's personal private law firm and his favorite judge is a Ling Cannon. And so both have exhibited a lack of independence in process. Pam Bondi. I love to get her back. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna whisper this in the ear of some senator that I interview like, like Blumenthal or something or Jamie Raskin on Congress say to her, how did you come to the conclusion? Show me the provision of the special counsel's law. Department of Justice, Manuel, where you concluded that there was no ethical conflict so that you did not have to appoint a special counsel to investigate all things Epstein when it was clear that your patron, your boss is implicated in one way or the other in the relationship or the files. How did you come to that conclusion? What, what. How did you decide not to appoint a special counsel so that it's not you and Todd Blanche who work and are not independent working for Donald Trump? Walk me through your process. Because she should have appointed a special counsel. Right? I may not like the special counsel rule in all of its iterations. I may have objected to having Robert her talk about Biden in his dotage and who was just a nice guy if he wasn't so senile. I probably would have indicted him. But I had to sit through that. We had to take that and hours of testimony in Congress and the audio tapes perhaps being revealed. So why wasn't there an independent counsel being appointed here and now you see the reason they would have pointed this out. They would be investigating and they would be reporting back to the American people. So. And then you've got Europe again leading the way about the Epstein files. I just ran a video of the Irish Parliament now effectively going to be demanding that the Epstein files be released so that they can go after the rich and powerful predators who are involved. We came on the air. Larry Sumners is out at Harvard. We knew that was coming. You know, people in business, in law, in the royal family, in academia, in Hollywood everywhere but Trump world are being brought to justice, and Europe and Canada and the other side are leading the way, and states are leading the way. Like New Mexico is opening up. Hey, they figured out they got a potential pedophile ranch being operated there, and so they're going after it. That's why we have to rely on the state attorneys general to kind of go after and follow up on these particular leads. But you've been a sex abuse prosecutor. So from your perspective, the revelation that Donald Trump's name got scrubbed and that they're not following these leads, how does that hit you?

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (50:11)

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I love Joyce Vance. I'm glad you brought her up. And anyone who doesn't subscribe to her substack should. She's really just one of the smarter people who comments and provides information on all the topics that we talk about. And I'm a big fan. So this allegation is stunning to me because essentially what happened was this woman was 13 at the time, between 13 and 15. She's not entirely sure exactly how old she was, but the range of time. She was either 13, 14, or 15 when it happened. She didn't come forward until 2019 when Jeffrey Epstein was arrested because she knew she was assaulted and raped and. And trafficked by someone named Jeff. But she didn't know, because she was so young, who it was. And when he was arrested, she said, oh, my God, this is the guy who did this to me. She came forward and was interviewed not once, not twice, not three times, but four times by the FBI. And when she said, I still have a picture saved on my phone of. Of Epstein and of who it was, and one of the guys that he was with who also assaulted me, but I want to X out the other guy in the picture because. And they said, well, why do you want to black that out? And she said, because I'm afraid. I'm afraid of retribution. I only came forward because Epstein has already been arrested. I'm afraid to come forward. Who is the other guy? It was Donald Trump. So this is the opposite of someone who's looking out to kind of get Trump. She's actually trying to hide what happened to her because she's afraid of Trump. Okay? That's the opposite of someone who has an ax to grind or someone who's going out to, you know, is anti Trump. That's number one. Number two of these four interviews. One, the first interview where she talks about Epstein but didn't talk about Trump, she talked about Trump, allegedly in those second Third and fourth interviews, they released the first one. At least that's what the reporting is. They think that that's because, don't forget, they take out the names of the individuals, et cetera. But based on the timing, based on serial numbers associated with the logs of the documents and the FBI reports, the reporting is they piece together that one of these talks about what she said happened with Epstein, but again, she was too afraid to come forward against Trump. Now, the allegation, as you said, was he, you know, he tried to make her perform oral sex on her, he exposed himself and she bit him and he viciously and brutally beat her. That's the allegation. And they are not releasing that. They have not, not confirmed or denied it. What they are saying is, oh no, we've released everything. We, we didn't hide anything from embarrassment, etc. But they did say, DOJ did say, however, that we, if there's an ongoing investigation, we're withholding things. I wouldn't hold my breath. That's why they were withholding this, that they're actually investigating Donald Trump. I, I think she, her fear and her fear that she wouldn't, that there could be some kind of retribution or retaliation, et cetera, is probably well founded. But I think this is a story that cannot go away. I think people have to demand that this be released. And frankly, the courage she showed to come forward and now what she sees is happening and the fact that nothing is happening. I mean, I agree with you that there is some accountability in that. People are losing their jobs, right? Whether it's the Brad Karp at Paul Weiss or Larry Summers at Harvard, other, a few people are losing their jobs as a result of this. There's no prosecutions. Right? Who's making arrests? The uk they're arresting Prince Andrew, a former Prince Andrew. He hasn't been charged, but he's been arrested. Other countries are making arrests. That's what the American people want to see. Not just people losing their job, they want to see people actually be investigated and prosecuted. And the only people that were investigated and prosecuted were Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. And there was a document out there, a draft indictment that had six co conspirators. And I think people should demand to know who those are and what's going on with those investigations. And the fact that the Epstein survivors have not been interviewed by this Department of Justice. And this FBI tells you two things. Number one, they aren't coming forward anymore to this FBI because they know, first of all, they're terrified and afraid I would be, too. And they know that nothing's going to happen. They're not going to hold powerful people accountable. But it's more telling that no one's reaching out to them. Because if I was a prosecutor and there was these allegations and I knew that there was these victims and these, these. And there was 3 million documents that talk about all the things that happened, I would be absolutely reaching out, opening my door and saying, please come in and tell me what happened. And I'd be investigating these claims. But the fact that there's no real investigation, I think just shows. And the fact that Donald Trump didn't even acknowledge the survivors in his State of the Union, didn't even mention this at all. He's gonna try to pretend like this is not part of the story of the State of Our Union right now, that this is not going on. But the American people aren't gonna let this go away. There is, this is a massive cover up of not just pedophiles, but sexual assault of powerful people who are sexually assaulting women and girls, either they were. There was many, many, many, many powerful people who either participated in that or enabled it or financed it or facilitated it or looked the other way or covered it up. And hopefully nobody will stop demanding answers until we finally have the full picture. He can try and he can not mention it in his, in his State of the Union, you know, his, his like, show, because that's what it was. It was a show in his performance. But that doesn't mean that it's not on top of everybody's mind. And I applaud the survivors for being there and having the courage to keep, and continually showing their faces and saying, we're here, we're available.

Michael Popak (57:04)

Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to cover the State of the Union address, legal af, is my client was inside and I wanted to honor the Epstein survivors. I mean, I, I am all about counter programming and turning our back on a, on a ruthless, immoral, unethical, criminal president. But, you know, there were people in the room that needed to be honored. And so that was sort of my point at the time. So I certainly agree with, with, with your approach here. Let's talk about Donald Trump's inability apparently to get grand juries and, or prosecutors to indict his political critics. It's a long list now. Now we can add six members of Congress led by Senators Mark Kelly and Elise Slotkin to the list. That includes Letitia James, New York Attorney General Adam Schiff, Senator of California, James Comey, former FBI Director James James Brennan, the former head of the CIA, you name it. The only person that's is John Bolton. The only person who's gotten actually indicted is John Bolton. And listen, wherever the chips fall, if you have a proper prosecutor and you're, you got proper evidence against them, you know what? He'll, he'll have his day in court. But everybody else, they can't just, they can't get a grand jury to indict. Now, we thought it was, I, I thought my, it was so eyebrow raising. I thought my eyebrows were going to float away off my head when, when we heard that they were trying to get an indictment through the D.C. u.S. Attorney's office, led by Janine Pirro, formerly of Judge Janine or whatever she was on and against Kelly and slotkin and, and four others for doing a 92nd public service ad expressing their First Amendment rights to remind fellow members of the military, because they're all former members of the military, that they have an obligation and sworn oath to uphold the Constitution and not follow illegal or unconstitutional orders. Now, there is a statute on the books that says if you interfere with armed services, morale, discipline, chain of command, that type of thing, you can be prosecuted for a crime up to 10 years. No one's ever prosecuted under this. And there's rigorous First Amendment protections around this that, especially when somebody like Senator Mark Kelly is on the Armed Services Committee providing oversight to the military. So we had two things break out, right? You had Jeanine Pirro trying to prosecute them and going to a grand jury and having that grand jury 10 days ago say, nope, we're not prosecuting these people. And then you had Pete Hegseth start a process to sanction and censure Mark Kelly as a retired naval officer, take away his pension, his stripes, all this other stuff. Kelly runs the federal court, gets Judge Richard Leon, who issues an injunction, says his First Amendment rights are being violated by any effort. As a retired member of the military, he has lots of First Amendment rights, especially since he's a sitting senator. Hecseth goes off and takes an appeal on that, that's a loser. But at the same time, you got this grand jury thing. Now, I thought maybe they try and try again. That's not what happened. Right, right, Karen, Right.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (60:34)

The reporting is they're abandoning it. I think they're cutting their losses and they don't want to end up like another Letitia James, you know, situation, or Jim Comey, where they keep indicting over and over and over again until they find a. Someone who will do it and then it obviously gets dismissed. So we'll see, we'll see what, what ends up happening. But for now, they're abandoning it. I think they realize that the public sentiment is not there. These are, these are sitting members of Congress. These are hero, Mark Kelly's a hero. He's an astronaut. He's, you know, former military, married to Gabby Gifford. I mean, these are, these are not, these are not people. This is not going to go over very well. And so I think they're cutting their losses and moving on, on, thankfully.

Michael Popak (61:20)

Yeah. And look, another federal prosecutor's office could pick it up. And every time Donald Trump wants to do something underhanded or politicized, he runs the Janine Piro, she's the same person that's in investigating Federal Reserve Chairman Jay Powell for cost overruns, about 200 year old buildings that have to be renovated and she won't drop it, despite the fact that at least one senator who's on the committee that has to approve and confirm the next person on the Federal Reserve under Donald Trump, Thom Tillis, has said I am not, he can block it alone with his one vote based on the, the, how the committee is, is, is formed or composed and comprised. And he said, I'm not, if you don't drop the investigation and get that cloud off of J Pal's head. Said I am not going to vote for Donald because Donald Trump's already got a guy that he wants to get on the Federal Reserve and then elevate in May when Jay Powell's term is over as chairman. He stays on for another two years and tell us, I said, nope, I'm not doing that until you drop it. And Jeanine Pirro's like, well, it's not my fault. It's because we sent nasty letters during Christmas. Nobody responded. So we had to get a, a subpoena. Like what? It's just mind boggling to me how, how feckless the Department of Justice is and the people in it are just willing to do and say anything, regardless of what it means for their future bar license or impeachment proceedings. Everybody, everybody proceeds at their own risk when they work for Donald Trump. Because if you're not named Donald Trump and you have a license, you have a career and you don't have criminal immunity, you, you don't have any of those things. And so you're all, you know, one misstep, one more misstep away from being impeached and removed or indicted and prosecuted. And, and yet that doesn't seem to stop them at all. I have a working theory which I'm going to develop more on a series of hot takes that based on the Supreme Court bashing that Donald Trump has done, which he cannot recover from, you can't take back a low blow. You know, you're a hockey fan, I'm a boxing fan. You hit somebody below the belt a couple of times, okay? You. You don't. You can't take that back, okay. Especially when it's intentional. It's a. What do they call it in some sport, an intentional foul, you know, a grade one foul or whatever it is. Can't take that back. And so the. The immunity decision exists, but you and I spent a considerable amount of time along with then analyzing it, 70 or 80 or 100 pages. And we saw a lot of loopholes and murky language and things that weren't exactly clear. That could easily be the subject of a future immunity decision where they fix a lot of the problems, just like they tried to continuously fix Roe vs Wade until they finally just got rid of it after. After 50 years and taking away a woman's right to choose. Because my theory is that Trump will do things that will be criminal and may not be within. And to test the limits of that immunity decision, the future Department of Justice under a Democrat, be that Spanberger, be that, you know, Gavin Newsom or people we haven't even thought of yet, whoever, you know, whoever gets through the process, that Department of Justice could try to bring an immunity case and try to indict Trump. Then it's up to Trump to try to use the immunity decision to say, you can't. I've been immunized, but not for everything. And so then you test the limits, giving the Supreme Court the opportunity to perhaps put part of the genie back into the lamp and fix the problems with their immunity decision, having now seen what Donald Trump did with it in a lawless way for four years. So there may be five votes if an indictment comes up. I mean, a federal judge, let's say a federal judge dismisses it, okay? Goes up to the United States Supreme Court. And the DOJ at that time will have to argue why they believe their indictment survives the application of the immunity decision. And that gives the immunity decision people the opportunity to roll it back back, to reframe it, to walk it back. That's. That's a fantasy of mine, but I think it could be a reality. I'll develop that more. What do you think about that, though?

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (65:57)

I think Trump will say. Trump will say, I pardoned myself in my mind.

Michael Popak (66:02)

Well, that's true. He'll have to. But you know what? Force him to do that and to have that stain and that scar, you know, that he felt he had a pardon himself. I'll, I might even live with that.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (66:14)

But.

Michael Popak (66:14)

But if the indictment starts after. You mean he had a pocket. So we'll have a fight over the pocket pardon.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (66:20)

Well, I, I hope you're right. I mean, because the immunity decision was so wrongly decided.

Michael Popak (66:27)

Right.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (66:27)

So much more dangerous than Sotomayor's dissent said it could be and would be. I mean, I don't think anyone envisioned how, how bad and how rogue he could go and how lawless he could be.

Michael Popak (66:41)

But the only way they could address it, because some people have said, can't they just issue another ruling? It has to be about presidential immunity they can make. They can mention it in a side note and something else and try to clarify. But it really would have to be, they get an indictment that's been dismissed or something, or a motion to dismiss, and then they go, you know what? Here's an opportunity to go under the hood and fix something that we did. Now that we've seen how one person used it, we didn't anticipate it. So that's something I'm really hoping about. But listen, when we come back, let's talk about some other developments that are out there at the intersection of law and politics that you and I like to talk about. But before we do that, including Judge Cannon and her lack of what I consider to be independence. But let's first take a quick break, tell people how to support what we do here on Legal AF, the podcast, Legal AF the YouTube channel. 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We frame today's episode around both the State of the Union, what I like to call the shut the F up up of America, and also this observation that the Department of Justice, the most corrupt in history, is also Donald Trump's private law firm, doesn't do things that that are independent. Quite the opposite. And then we also have one particular judge that seems to go out of her way to make rulings that are in Donald Trump's favor. This one does ultimately screws the Department of Justice, I believe, in other arguments that they are making about about like Lindsay Halligan and the indictment of James Comey that they're trying to salvage at the appellate court, while at the same time arguing to Judge Cannon that the Mar A Lago, what we call volume two for shorthand of the Jack Smith report, a couple hundred pages that he worked on and finished, like every other special counsel, like every special counsel, as required by the statute to deliver that volume to the Attorney General, who then almost always, except in this case, just releases it to the American people. Volume one got out already. But volume two was under the jurisprudence and jurisdiction of Judge Cannon because she made it so subject to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. So what happens? There's no adverse party here. There's no adversary process. This is why, this is why. It's a fraud. Fraud. She gets together Trump, his Department of justice, which he owns, and the co defendants in the Mar? A Lago case and says, hey guys, should we bury forever the Mar a Lago Volume 2 report? Yes. Jack Smith was illegally appointed and you found that. And his indictment was invalid because he wasn't confirmed by the Senate. That's interesting because that's the exact opposite position they're taking with Lindsey Halligan. And you should never let it see the light of day and you should actually make an order binding the future Department of Justice so it never goes into the trash can of history. Now, normally, if a judge wanted to have any semblance of independence and appearance of propriety, they would turn to another party in the room who's on the other side of the issue and say, what do you think well, what did Aileen Cannon do, Eileen Cannon do? She blocked the door. She locked the door to allow any other parties in. Two are at the door. Two oversight, public interest groups, the Knight foundation for First Amendment, for First Amendment and American Oversight. I said, oh, no, no. You're strangers to this transaction. You're strangers to this proceeding. You're out. You're out. So nobody. I don't want to hear from you. No, no. But, Judge. No, no, no. You might make good arguments. I don't want you to. I don't want to hear from you. You're out.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (74:29)

Out.

Michael Popak (74:29)

So they had to go to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, and the 11th Circuit is now going to decide whether they should be in or out. So now she's left everybody on one side of the room. She has nobody pushing for the opposite side in our adversarial process. Now, what should she have done? Karen, we know exactly what the judge in New York did about the dismissal of the Eric Adams, Mayor Adams indictment. When the Department of Justice is captured by the presidency and there's no one to argue the other side, what does a federal judge do? You remember, you appoint a independent officer of the court, whether you want to call him a special counsel or whatever, to give you advice. So in that case, he. So, so there'd be. Because he looked around, he said, there's nobody resisting. There's nobody advocating for the other side. That's not our system. So he appointed Paul Clement. Clement, the former Solicitor General under George W. Bush, to give the court advice as an officer of the court. Did Cannon do that? I'll turn it over to you, Karen.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (75:32)

Nope, she didn't.

Michael Popak (75:33)

Okay, we're good. Night, everybody.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (75:35)

I know she, like, this is. This was like 15 or so page ruling on. On her part. That was just. She might be the most partisan, the most in the bag federal judge there is, is even, even Kacmarek in Texas. I think she, she even, I think, beats him in terms of her lawless decision making and the fact that she is just bending over backwards for Donald Trump. And she permanently barred the Department of Justice from releasing this report. She used words, you know, she, she. She personally criticized Jack Smith. She said this was a brazen stratagem by compiling this detailed report even after I ruled in July that the appointment was unconstitutional and dismissed. And you spent taxpayer dollars doing it. And here's a quote. Special Counsel Smith and his team went ahead for months undeterred, preparing the report, using discovery collected in connection with this proceeding and expending government funds in the process to say this chronology represents, at a minimum, a concerning breach of the spirit of the dismissal order is an understatement if not an outright violation of it. You know, she's just, she said releasing the report now would contravene basic notions of fairness and justice and amount to a manifest injustice because the case never reached a jury. And, you know, she says, while it's true former special counsels have released final reports at the conclusion of their work, it appears they have done so either after electing to not bring charges at all or after adjudication of guilt by plea or trial. She couldn't find a situation similar to this. She doesn't at all acknowledge the fact that, okay, because the law requires special counsel, any special counsel, to do a report. Jack was following the law. And by the way, she's the only. She's the only judge who has ruled that a special counsel is invalid. And so it's kind of outrageous what she did. She said, this is I found interesting. She said, releasing the report would cause, quote, irreparable harm to the President. And I had to scratch my head and say, why are the facts that bad? Is it that bad? What Jack Smith found that this would be irreparable harm. In some ways, this is just an admission that these facts are so bad. Because if they wouldn't, why would anyone try to hide it? Why wouldn't Trump be saying, why wouldn't he say, put the facts out there? Transparency. I did nothing wrong. But he's not, he's doing everything he can to bury this because he doesn't want anyone to see what the facts are, because the facts are that bad and that harmful. From the little that we did see from the indictment and from what we could see when the case was brought, this wasn't just a, oops, I had some documents and didn't realize it. This was not only multiple efforts to try and obstruct getting those documents back to the archives where they belong and returning them. And he was given multiple opportunities to do it. There were lies. He lied to his lawyers, he lied to government officials. And just the way he kept these things. And some were hidden, some were just in unlocked storage rooms spilling out all over the floor. Anyone could have access to them. Them, some where he was waving them around and bragging about them to people who don't have top secret clearance. I mean, the facts are really, really bad. This was a deliberate attempt on his part to not only steal our nation's greatest secrets, but to then keep them and use them. Improperly. And so I think they have a lot to hide here, and that's why they don't want this to ever be released. And she's doing everything she can to try and help this administration. She is MAGA all the way and is as much. She is the least judicial judge. You're supposed to kind of sit on top and not be partisan and call balls and strikes. This is another defense attorney in the room and now another prosecutor, since the prosecutor is the Department of Justice. So as you said, Popak, the fact that she didn't invite anyone else to give another perspective, the other perspective to help the court is, is highly unusual. And the fact that she would criticize Jack Smith for doing exactly what the law required him to do, which is to write this report, and that they are all hiding this. I think history is not going to look favorably upon this. And I'm hoping somehow, some way this report sees the light of day someday.

Michael Popak (80:23)

Yeah, I think what I'm hoping will happen procedurally is that the 11th Circuit has the final word. They're still having watched, again, Eileen Cannon interfere with the future executive branch. They already, they already punished her twice on, reversed her twice on interfering with the executive branch and controlled by Biden at the time in doing their investigation and prosecution of Trump before it was even a prosecution, it was just an investigation. She tried to interfere on it based on a search warrant. And they said, you can't do that. Stay in your lane, your judiciary, you're not executive branch branch. And so they didn't like that. And here, what is she doing it all over again? It's just another version of interfering with the executive branch, except the future executive branch by tying the hands of the incoming attorney general about what they can and cannot do and can and cannot release. I don't think the 11th Circuit is going to like it. And their quickest fix for it would be to reverse her decision to ban the involvement of American Oversight and the Knight center for First Amendment Rights. Get them into the case, let them make their argument, which she will obviously reject and won't reconsider, then take that up on appeal for the whole thing. Right now, the 11th Circuit may want to say something, but there's no appeal avenue because, again, as we said at the top of the segment, everybody's sitting on one side of the table. There's no one on the other side who's going to appeal. The Department of Justice run by Trump wanted this decision, proposed it. That's. It's exactly from their motion, including the language about the future Department of justice, which we caught, circled, did hot takes on. We knew this was happening. It's all choreographed. You. The only problem is while I'm. While I'm able to choreograph certain things in a courtroom, I'm never able to choreograph graph the judge. And here it looks like they can. So we have to get an appeal avenue. The cleanest appeal route is by the 11th Circuit reversing her, telling her she has to consider the arguments made by the Knight center and by Oversight, American Oversight. Then when she says, well, yeah, I'm not changing anything that I wrote. Most of which she spent trying to chastise Jack Smith. I mean, it really galled me to watch her go after Jack Smith and say he was lawless and he was rogue. Lawless and rogue. You mean like Donald Trump? Talk about gaslighting. Oh, and he worked overtime to finish his report before his term was over. Have you read the independent counsel, special counsel statute? He has to prepare a report. He can't say, well, I was gonna prepare the report and comply with the statute. Delivered to my boss, the attorney General. But I don't know. This lady down. Down. This judge lady down in Miami, you know, or Fort Beer seems to have it in for me. So I'll just won't do it. I just won't do it. You know, she. He didn't have to get her permission in the executive branch to complete his job. Again, a blind spot, A healthy blind spot. Not understanding separation of powers, not. Which has got her into trouble twice before. So I think the 11th Circuit is going to make its own path here. Here to communicate. Get that up and we'll watch it. You and I will follow it. I don't think we. I guess by the end note here, I don't think we've heard the last of this particular issue. And I'm not yet ready to say permanently, she's banned future attorneys general from releasing this particular report. I mean, people say, why does it matter? It's in the future. I don't know. Donald Trump's releasing the JFK shooting report and UFOs now. I mean, it matters, you know, that we ultimately, that we speak to history. You know, when I interviewed the attorneys general, 12 of them, for the Democrats last week, and now we're putting up that content over the last couple of days. There's one in particular that I liked. In fact, I'll make a note to our producers to make sure we clip. That is when Chris Mays, the amazing attorney general, no pun intended of. Of Arizona who I hope also wants to go into higher office. I'm glad she's an attorney general right now but she's certainly ready and former Republican, by the way, certainly ready to represent the Democrats. She said she believes that our of our fore parents are speaking to us now people in this era and, and she hears them about defending the Constitution, that this is the moment like no other in our history. And she just put it. I'm butchering it. She put it so beautifully. It'll be up soon. I think we got that. That panel going up tomorrow. But the fact that she believes that, that we not only do we stand on the shoulders of our founders and framers and those that defended the rule of law and democracy and put this. But that she hears things them and communes with them and is animated and motivated by them. It's so perfect. I feel that way, you know that, you know, I feel like that if I ever got to, if I ever get to heaven and I get to have that perfect dinner that I've always wanted with like George Washington, you know, like Jefferson, Elvis, you know, I know you'll have, I don't know, Cam Neely or something sitting, sitting around the table that I'll get to ask him all these amazing questions and I want them to say to me, popak, I gotta, we gotta just tell you big fans what you've done from your slender perch of being a podcaster to help defend democracy. And you know, even that's the fantasy. It's one that gets me up in the morning. What about you, Karen?

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (86:18)

I think Prince would be at my table.

Michael Popak (86:22)

The more I talk to you and learn about you, the more fascinated I am about your. What you like and who would be at your dinner or on a desert island.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (86:33)

Freddie Mercury. Oh, Prince. Those are my.

Michael Popak (86:36)

And then I'd have like sitting next

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (86:38)

to Einstein, my grandmother.

Michael Popak (86:39)

Yeah. All we have is like certainly have my parents there. But, but you know, like Einstein next to Elvis. Prince, I mean just. But I would definitely have, you know, I've always been enamored with April.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (86:51)

Alexander Hamilton.

Michael Popak (86:52)

Yeah, Hamilton. Although you probably want Linda and well to be playing him in the, in the, in the reality like I, you know, Abraham Lincoln. I mean how many book reports did I write about Abraham Lincoln and George Washington? But anyway, we've reached the end. Before we meander more, we've reached the end of another hopefully entertaining yet educational and and fulfilling episode of Legal AF, the podcast with Karen Freeman McNiffalo and Michael Popak. Only one place on your listening and watching. Dial the Midas Touch Network. Take a minute and help us out. If you like our videos, which we know you do because we see the numbers. If we could just get 10% of those people to also subscribe for free on Legal AF YouTube channel or hit subscribe on the on the podcast, leave comments, it would be. It would really go a long way to ensuring our survival, I guess is the right way to put it. And we do appreciate all of you come over to Legal AF Substack. What a great community there, including legal aaf with 10 new pieces of content every day at the intersection of law and politics. Appreciate all of you. Glad to always have my time. My my, it's one of my jams to be with Karen Freeman, Igniffalo and then Ben Mysellis on Saturday. Appreciate you all and thank you for watching Shout out to the Midas Mighty and illegal a effort. I saw this app. I got a hit in the new Limited Series DTF St. Louis, Jason Bateman, David Harbour and Linda Cardellini star as three suburbanites who spice up their love lives.

Karen Freeman McNiffalo (88:34)

Wow.

Michael Popak (88:35)

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Karen Freeman McNiffalo (88:42)

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Michael Popak (88:44)

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Karen Freeman McNiffalo (88:48)

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Michael Popak (88:49)

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Karen Freeman McNiffalo (88:57)

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Michael Popak (88:58)

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