Legal AF - 4/4/26

Summary

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Legal AF - April 4, 2026: "Trump’s Cascade of Legal & Political Defeats"

Podcast: Legal AF by MeidasTouch
Release Date: April 5, 2026
Hosts: Ben Meiselas, Michael Popok, Karen Friedman Agnifilo

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Overview

This hard-hitting episode of Legal AF explores a turbulent week in US law and politics, centered on a series of stinging defeats for Donald Trump: major losses in court, chaos in the administration's Cabinet, and the unraveling of efforts to subvert foundational constitutional principles. The hosts break down the Trump administration’s legal failures, Cabinet purges—particularly Pam Bondi’s firing—and Supreme Court oral arguments eviscerating attempts to dismantle birthright citizenship. They also cover the ongoing, disastrous war in Iran, shedding light on the administration’s lack of strategy and the catastrophic costs involved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Tumultuous Week: Legal & Political Losses

• Cabinet Turnover Chaos:

  • Trump fired Attorney General Pam Bondi en route to the Supreme Court, after she failed to suppress damaging Epstein files and mishandled COVID and other scandals.
  • Administration is suffering acute instability, with revolving Cabinet positions and major leaks.
  • Trump is polling Cabinet members on whether Tulsi Gabbard should be ousted ("When he starts polling, you're done." - Popak, 04:54).
  • Predictions that up to a third of Cabinet could be replaced in the coming month (Popak, 05:00).

• Ballroom Debacle:

  • Trump’s unauthorized East Wing ballroom project at the White House halted by federal Judge Leon, who ruled construction must stop unless Congress approves it.
  • The ruling firmly reasserts that presidents are stewards of the White House, not owners, and cannot override Congress to undertake major construction.

2. War in Iran: Disastrous Consequences

• Mounting US Military Losses:
  • List of destroyed US military assets: F-35, multiple F-15E Strike Eagles, A-10, AWACS, tankers, drones, helicopters. 13 American bases evacuated.
  • At least 13 American soldiers reported dead—likely higher (11:56).
  • CENTCOM’s silence and denial contrasted with Iranian video evidence.
  • The administration’s “erratic” and “scattershot” military and political leadership is slammed as dangerous and demoralizing (13:11).

3. Analysis of the "Ballroom" Court Ruling

• Judge Leon’s Ruling:
  • No statute even comes close to giving the president authority for the ballroom construction; Congressional authorization is required (17:16).
• Trump’s Response:
  • Trump claimed the ballroom is a “drone and ballistic missile protection room,” misinterpreting the order (17:53).
• Host Reaction:
  • Trump accused of “shape-shifting” explanations (“ballroom,” “shed,” “bunker”) and gaslighting the public (18:58).
  • Judge Leon’s order noted for 18 exclamation marks, flagging the absurdity of Trump’s claims (19:31).
• Legal Nuances:
  • Whether private donors (right-wing oligarchs, etc.) fund the ballroom is irrelevant; Congress still holds the "keys" and must approve major changes (31:02).
  • Trump’s current budget requests suspiciously include $350 million for “renovations”—matching the ballroom cost (32:01).

Quote:

"The president, as you said, is a temporary occupant. But Congress holds the keys to federal property. They're the permanent landlord."
—Michael Popak, 19:31

4. Cabinet Purge: Pam Bondi Out, DOJ in Crisis

• Pam Bondi Fired:

  • Bondi let go amid reports she was “begging to keep her job” (37:01).
  • Main reason for firing: inability to suppress Epstein files (37:57).

• Epstein Investigation:

  • Bondi still subpoenaed despite firing; Democrats vow to continue investigation (38:16).
  • Major parts of Epstein's money laundering and trafficking investigations remain covered up (38:53, 39:01).

• DOJ Turmoil:

  • Acting AG is now Todd Blanche—himself compromised with links to Trump and Ghislaine Maxwell.
  • Career federal prosecutors reportedly celebrated Bondi’s firing (40:03).

Notable Story:

Bondi’s tradition of removing predecessors’ portraits and retaliating against staff previewed the toxic culture under her tenure (40:14).

Quote:

"Her legacy will always be shame… most prominently covering up the child sex trafficking ring."
—Host, 40:50

• AG Succession Speculation:

  • Senate confirmation for a new AG remains a hurdle; likely candidates face enormous political and legitimacy issues.
  • Pam Bondi’s downfall and toxic internal jockeying are warning signs for any would-be successor (51:53).

• Sen. Thom Tillis’s Pledge:

  • Will block any AG nominee who excuses January 6th—even if from his own party (52:24).

5. Supreme Court: Trump’s Birthright Citizenship Gambit Fails

• The Case:

  • Trump’s executive order to overturn the 14th Amendment’s birthright citizenship provision faced unanimous skepticism at the Supreme Court.
  • Trump attended the oral argument but stormed out mid-way after justices, including his own appointees, rejected his legal theories.

• Oral Argument Highlights:

  • Justice Roberts and Gorsuch grilled Trump’s team for ignoring plain constitutional text—Solicitor General John Sauer faltered, admitting “I have to think that through” when asked if Native Americans would lose citizenship under his test (68:47).
  • Kavanaugh, surprising many, suggested a simple, precedent-driven rejection of Trump’s arguments.
  • ACLU lawyer Cecilia Wong delivered a devastatingly concise answer confirming 1898's Wong Kim Ark precedent resolves the case (laughter ensued).

Quote:

"You're supposed to think it through before you file your papers."
—Michael Popak, 69:08

• Predicted Outcome:
  • Near-unanimous Supreme Court loss for Trump (likely 8-1 or 7-2).
  • Significance reframed: a rare legal firewall amidst a term with many SCOTUS rulings favoring Trump and eroding democracy (81:48).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "This is an exact extension of his argument. Donald Trump could have knocked over the entire White House, claimed it was under national security reasons…and not have to get congressional approval."
  —Michael Popak, 20:25

• "The erratic handling of his cabinet, the people that he picks… the decision making around Iran, the lack of stewardship over the economy…is a symptom of a disease."
  —Michael Popak, 09:40

• "If a Democratic president had the loss of life, the loss of planes in this war with no exit strategy…they'd be burning them in effigy in the streets led by the Republicans."
  —Michael Popak, 08:06

• "He stormed out in the middle of [oral argument], through a tantrum…it's just loser behavior."
  —Host, 65:58

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:13 – Episode theme & news recaps: multiple Trump “losses”
• 04:05 – Introduction to Michael Popak, Cabinet instability
• 08:44 – Cabinet chaos: Susie Wiles, Bondi, Gabbard, Patel
• 10:48 – Military losses in Iran, administration’s failures detailed
• 16:41– Judge Leon’s order halting ballroom construction, readings from the ruling
• 18:45– Trump’s misleading recounting of the order
• 19:31– Popak’s analysis: Congressional authority & judicial skepticism
• 37:01– Pam Bondi’s firing: The real reasons and aftermath
• 41:25 – Todd Blanche’s defense of DOJ’s handling of the Epstein files
• 51:33 – Sen. Thom Tillis vows to block “election denier” AG nominees
• 62:31 – Supreme Court arguments: Trump’s birthright citizenship order
• 68:19– Justice Gorsuch schools Trump’s Solicitor General on Native American citizenship
• 69:08– Popak’s legal analysis & takeaways from oral argument
• 81:48– Perspective on the Supreme Court’s current term
• 82:10– Episode wrap-up: theme of Trump’s defeats, encouragement to keep fighting

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Conclusion & Takeaways

This episode showcases Legal AF’s sharp analysis and unapologetic tone in dissecting the legal and political chaos of the current administration. Trump’s attempts to outmaneuver statute, constitutional text, and even his own appointed officials are rebuffed in courts and the Supreme Court. Cabinet purges (with a strong undercurrent of misogyny) and a disastrous war in Iran highlight the administration’s foundational instability and disregard for legal norms. While bad news abounds, the hosts urge listeners to stay informed, keep pressure on political and legal institutions, and continue participating—underscoring the stakes for democracy and rule of law in America.

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For further updates, subscribe to the Legal AF Substack and YouTube Channel. Vote for Legal AF at The Webby Awards.

Transcript

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[Legal AF Host 1]

A lot to cover on today's legal af Trump loses his ballroom, a stunning defeat in federal court that we predicted right here on Legal Afghanistan. Donald Trump loses his ag. Pam Bondi is fired. Who is going to replace her? The Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche is serving as the acting Attorney General and people in federal prosecutorial offices across the country taking Pam Bondi's portrait and throwing

[Legal AF Host 2]

it in the garbage.

[Legal AF Host 1]

We'll talk about that by all accounts, Donald Trump lost big in the Supreme Court. The oral arguments in Trump's biggest executive order case where he tried to overturn the 14th Amendment's birthright citizenship provision via an executive order. Donald Trump sat there for a little bit during the oral argument, and then he threw a tantrum and walked out in the middle of oral arguments. Quite embarrassing.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Loser, loser, loser.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And then when we talk briefly at the outset, we'll talk a little bit about what's going on in this catastrophic

[Legal AF Host 2]

and unlawful that's the intersection and nexus between law and politics right there.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Unlawful war in Iran.

[Legal AF Host 2]

The United States continues to lose military equipment. Last week it was the crown jewel

[Legal AF Host 1]

of the Air Force.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Some of our surveillance airplanes and tanker planes over in Saudi Arabia. We've lost all of these Reaper drones. And then, of course, the F15E, the

[Legal AF Host 1]

A10, these fighter jets were shot down.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Two helicopters that were part of the search and rescue team were hit as well. And we will continue to be providing those kind of daily updates regarding the

[Legal AF Host 1]

war that we've been doing.

[Legal AF Host 2]

I know we just try to get

[Legal AF Host 1]

you the facts, show you everything that's going on.

[Legal AF Host 2]

But this is legal AF the intersection

[Legal AF Host 1]

of law and politics.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Let's bring in Michael Popak because we got a lot to discuss.

[Legal AF Host 1]

No delay in anything here.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Popak.

[Legal AF Host 1]

A week that saw a lot of

[Legal AF Host 2]

losing by the weakest president and frankly, one of the weakest people in American history, world history at that vote.

[Michael Popak]

PARK yeah, finally, Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, and her trying to keep the revolving door shut in the Cabinet, which was one of the problems in the first Trump administration as he fired five and hired and fired five different attorneys general and then replaced this whole Cabinet within a year and a half. She kept a pretty good lid on it for about 16 months. But now I think you and I are going to be reporting an hourly daily basis on a velocity of cabinet replacement that we haven't seen since the first Trump administration. It's not just going to be Pam Bondi. Pam Bondi. It was funny. You and I joked a couple of weeks ago when Kristi Noem got canned. I said, why isn't it Pam Bondi? You and I went back and forth about that. But Kristi Noem, Pam Bondi, Tulsi Gabbard, besides having a gender in common, the misogynist in chief is at it again, getting rid of the incompetence and starting with the women. I mean, his entire Cabinet is basically incompetent. My prediction is a third or more of the Cabinet is going to be replaced over the next month. Tulsi Gabbard, when you hear insider leaks and this is the leakiest, most undisciplined administration that we have ever seen, you know, we go from no drama Obama and very little leaks during the Biden administration into the leakiest administration. This administration should worry less about who's sitting in their press pool and getting MAGA influencers in the Pentagon press room and in the White House press room because they think that's the way to control the propaganda machine. Worry less about that, Worry more about their leaks. Because the newest leak is that Donald Trump is polling people, polling his cabinet, whether Tulsi Gabbard, the Director of National Intelligence, should live or die in her role when he starts polling, you're done. So Tulsi Gabbard, maybe because he had to fire Pam Bundy and did it on the way. And we'll talk about it in the segment on the way over. You love this. What a great boss. Hey, Pam, we're going to go over to the Supreme Court, be the first president ever to sit in on a Supreme Court oral argument. Why don't you come along for the ride in the Beast? And then on the way over, fires her. So Tulsi Gabbard, her Cash Patel, there it is. I love that photo. I don't think he said it right there, but it's coming. It's like a Godfather movie. Like she's lucky nobody was sitting behind her on the ride over. Then you got Cash Patel. I mean, he is not long for, for the, for Trump world. And there's been reporting that Donald Trump has been consulting with the closest of his closest advisors, which are apparently are his wife, Melania. Oh, yeah, she doesn't do anything else. And Susie Wiles. And that they're, they're trying to figure out whether Stephen Miller should be fired because of the migration, Immigration, Deportation, Removal, Alien Enemies act policies are so hated by the American people as Donald Trump's favorability rating heads down below 30%. And he's got to throw all. There's so many people being thrown under the bus by Donald Trump. This bus is not going to be able to move. And he's never going to take personal responsibility. Or as I joked during a hot take. The good news, the gift to the Democrats is Donald Trump will not be able to grow a brain, ethics, morals, leadership or character between now and the midterms or when it matters for that campaign. So he's gotta, like, in his view, flush the toilet. And so we got Tulsi Gabbard, Pam Bondi, Kristi Noem, likely Cash Patel, RFK Jr. I don't think makes it much longer, but you and I were right on the money. Not that I want to twist my arm out path patting ourselves on the back, but we said, I know I did. You did too. That Pam was never going to make the April 14th Epstein subpoenaed testimony. We'll talk about that when we get to Epstein and her in a minute at least as the actual attorney general as an ex and fight over it maybe for that hearing was coming up. And so for all this is just to round it out at that intersection of law and politics that you and I live on, the chaos that we see in his lack of war planning, his lack of exit strategy, getting outmaneuvered by the Iranians. You and I said before we got on the air today, if a Democratic president had the loss of life, the loss of planes in this war with no exit strategy, if it was Obama or if it was Carter or Clinton, they would be they're re burning them in effigy in the streets led by the Republicans. And yet here because people are just fatigued, not on our show, but just fatigued by, by what Trump does and his erratic lack of leadership and focus. We just chalk it off to, well, it's just another loss of a F15 fighter jet. I mean, no, it's not. It's a reflection. It's a symptom of a disease. The erratic handling of his cabinet, the people that he picks to replace the people that he's firing, the decision making around Iran, the lack of stewardship over the economy, the lashing out at his enemies and then at the same time undermining our democracy by doing a full frontal assault and trying to do a massacre of mail in ballots, which we'll talk about later today. This is if Donald Trump to end it this way, if Donald Trump believes that any of his arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic is going to have an impact on the midterms and from reporting, including with your with our new great Washington bureau chief Scott McFarland, who joined me on Legal AF yesterday for a great video. The Republicans know that this is going to be a bloodbath and they're preparing for the bloodbath at the midterms, not just the House, but the Senate too, which will have domino effect on people's decision making all along the way, all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Take a look at the or I'll talk about the US Military aircraft losses that you mentioned, either severely damaged or just totally destroyed. One F35, four F15E Strike Eagles, including the most recent F15E that, that was hit in the past 24 hours. The A10 Thunderbolt, an E3G Sentry AWACs. That's the crown jewel of the Air Force. Those AWACs. I mean there's only like 18 of them in existence. Nine KC 135 tankers, 17 MQ9 Reaper drones, one uh, 60 Black Hawk helicopter, two HH60G Pave Hawk search and rescue helicopters, one, one CH47 Chinook. Thirteen American military bases in the Middle east have been evacuated. Then of course, the loss of life, which, you know, from what we, from what we understand that's been reported, around 13 soldiers have been killed. But you know, there are lots, I've seen lots of reporting that suggests the

[Legal AF Host 1]

number could be higher.

[Legal AF Host 2]

And normally I would say, well, I don't want to veer into that territory of potential speculation. And you know, it's just CENTCOM repeatedly

[Legal AF Host 1]

was saying no aircrafts were shot down.

[Legal AF Host 2]

You know, for example, that, that was

[Legal AF Host 1]

like one of their last posts.

[Legal AF Host 2]

They've like pretty much gone silent for like a 48 hour period.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And one of their last post was

[Legal AF Host 2]

basically doing a fact check that that's totally false. When Iran was showing videos of them

[Legal AF Host 1]

shooting down the plates. And, and then it turns out that

[Legal AF Host 2]

Iran videos were accurate.

[Michael Popak]

And by the way, you're being conservative

[Sponsor Voice]

because we haven't even included the soldiers

[Michael Popak]

who in training exercises to get ready for the war died on this side of the war.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Absolutely. And look, it was the editor at large for the Wall Street Journal, not Midas touch, although I agree with what he says. But in this sense, the editor at large at Wall Street Journal says something to the extent of, you know, it's,

[Legal AF Host 1]

it's kind of a sad and depressing thing that we almost have to trust

[Legal AF Host 2]

what Iran is saying more than what's coming out of Donald Trump and his inner circle and what the White House

[Legal AF Host 1]

is saying, that's the editor at large

[Legal AF Host 2]

at the Wall Street Journal, you know, basically saying that.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And that's a deeply problematic thing. I mean, let's be clear, there's propaganda

[Legal AF Host 2]

in war all of the time.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And one of the ways Iran is

[Legal AF Host 2]

utilizing their propaganda though, is trying to appeal to, to, you know, hey, you know, we, we're going to retaliate if you attack us and we're just going to do retaliation that's tailored to what you do. So you attack a power plant, we

[Legal AF Host 1]

attack one of Yours. And, you know, and that's the type of language they're using while the Trump regime is out there, you know, saying,

[Legal AF Host 2]

we're going to, I mean, literally, we're

[Legal AF Host 1]

going to rain hell down, we loiter over you and death from the sky, we're going to bomb you into the Stone Age. We're going to destroy the country, decimate, decapitate. They don't have weapons anymore. They don't have. What do they have? BB guns? I mean, it's just to watch and observe that, you know, it is so utterly, it's depressing, it's idiotic, it's dangerous. You know, it's, it's, it's horrible. But, you know, the nexus also here to the intersection of law and politics, in addition to the fact that the law is unlawful, you know, you go to the people who Trump puts in these positions, the cabinet members you mentioned, the Pam Bondies, you know, the other people, you know, how Donald Trump carries out a legal case is scattershot. It's all over the place. You know, it's, it's relentless in its gaslighting and delays and being all over the place. And sometimes that has the ability to overwhelm an adversary because even though it's factually, legally, you know, wrong and a mess, you know, Trump's okay being sanctioned over and over again, or when it comes to war, taking casualties, you know, and just spewing a bunch of nonsense, hoping the other side just gets overwhelmed and tired. That's frankly been his legal strategy his entire life. But let's get into it, because when people fight back against Donald Trump, you know, you see them win, right? Whether it's Abrego Garcia, you know, who fights back and wins, you know, whether it's E. Jean Carroll fighting back and winning her trial, when you fight back against him, you know, individuals have shown that they can stand up to all of the resources that he throws their way. So let's talk about this ballroom and this ballroom ruling. So Judge Leon's a federal judge in the Washington, D.C. federal court. The National Historic Trust is the group that brought this lawsuit. The full name is the National Trust for Historic Preservation in the United States. They initially moved for a preliminary injunction. A few weeks back, they lost. And then the judge gave them what's called leave to amendment because they had to plead, put different legal claims in there because they kind of left certain things out. And Popak, you and I were pointing out in your hot takes and on legal AF what the right statutes were. And Judge Leon was like, okay, use these. He basically was like, you cited some statutes, but you haven't really hit the core constitutional arguments that you needed to hit. Then they amended their complaint, moved again for a preliminary injunction. The Trump regime was like, you can't do it twice. And Judge Leon's like, why not?

[Legal AF Host 2]

Yes, you can.

[Legal AF Host 1]

I mean, you can amend a complaint that's allowed in the law, essentially. And then Judge Leon, based on the amended complaint, blocked any further construction, or construction at all on the ballroom unless and until there's congressional authorization. I'll just read for you very quickly what Judge Leon said, and then I'm

[Legal AF Host 2]

going to toss it over to you, Popak.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Judge Leon writes, the President of the United States is the steward of the White House for future generations of first families. He is not, however, the owner. Trump claims that Congress has given him the authority and existing statutes to construct his East Wing ballroom project and to do it with private funds. The plaintiff, the National Trust for the Historic Preservation in the United States, claims the President has no such authority under existing statutes and that a preliminary injunction is necessary to avoid irreparable harm. I have concluded that the National Trust is likely to succeed on the merits because no statute comes close to.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Let me repeat that again.

[Legal AF Host 1]

No statute even comes close to giving the President the authority he claims to have. As such, I must therefore grant the National Trust motion for a preliminary injunction, and the ballroom construction project must stop until Congress's authorization is complete.

[Legal AF Host 2]

In other words, you need congressional authorization.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Popak, I want to show you this clip of what Donald Trump said after being handed that order and then get

[Legal AF Host 2]

your take on it.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Let's play what Donald Trump said in the Oval Office after getting an order that clearly said, you must stop building the ballroom unless and until you get congressional authorization.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Here's how Trump responded.

[Donald Trump (clip)]

He's allowed to continue building as necessary. And when it talks about the safety and security of the White House and its grounds. So just so you know, I wrote some of the thing down. We have a. A drone proof roof. And it talks about the President and his staff. Well, we have a lot of bulletproof glass. White House was built a long time ago. This has the highest level of. In fact, they call this graph, this grass, this, the glass. It's bulletproof and it's ballistic proof. It's very thick. It's like that. And it's going 45ft high. And every window is covered, every door is covered. The roof is drone proof. We have secure air handling systems.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Popak, toss it over to you. So Trump is saying, well, the judge did say he can't block national security issues.

[Legal AF Host 1]

So the ballroom is actually my drone and ballistic missile protection room.

[Michael Popak]

Yeah. So Trump has another nasty habit. He's always compromising national security when he tries to make a point. By the way, you know, I'm of a certain age. I've never seen print that large. I don't know if we could put that back up. Just a screenshot, a still of him reading from his notes. Whoever wrote him in that Sharpie, that's some pretty big font there for Trump. He, look, there's been a rumor, all kidding aside, that he can barely read. And certainly either he's purposely Trump, purposely misapprehending what the judge ruled where he can't read, and nobody around him will disabuse him of his thoughts. Trump's got another problem with the ballroom. He keeps shape shifting on what's going on on that project on Air Force One, when he, right before the judge issued or right after the judge issued his order, he basically referred to the ballroom as his words. A shed, just a shed sitting over a, a presidential emergency operations center. I mean, there is a peacock that's already under the White house since the 1950s. Sort of the panic room for the President and the situation room is down there as well. Every time he gets pushed, he says it's not the ballroom, it's all of the emergency bunker that we're building underneath the ballroom is just a shed. In other contexts, he tells the American people and anyone else who will listen, this is a big glorious ballroom that for 150 years presidents have wanted, and we need it so women don't get their height. This is his words, not mine. So women won't get their high heels caught in the grass in the now completely paved over rose garden area. Okay, let me explain. You're, you're, you're very kind today, Judge, Judge Leon, who I love, put 18 exclamation marks. 18. I've, I've, I've been doing this for 35 years. I've seen an exclamation mark or two on occasion, maybe twice a year in a federal result. Eighteen in one, including a number of eye rolling exclamations where the judge restates the government's position about the ballroom, where they tried to, they tried to compare when there was a paint job for the White House or shabby carpet removed or a fence that needed to be removed, and something else. And in comparing that to a 90,000 square foot ballroom that's now attached to a White House or A White House that's now attached to a ballroom and say it's equivalent. And then he would say, after he repeats that, the Judge Leon would say, please, an exclamation mark, which is his version of an eye roll in him attacking their position. He went over the statutes as you outlined that say you have to get congressional approval, maybe even appropriation funding. Trump's whole theory has been, if I take the money from big business, big tech, apple and banks and things to pay for not all of, not all of the 400 million, but some of it, I won't need congressional approval. Under his theory, which is not a slippery slope. This is an exact extension of his argument. Donald Trump could have knocked over the entire White House, right? Claimed it was under national security reasons, he had to build a bigger bunker and rebuilt the White House and not have to get congressional approval. But Judge Leon reminds us in his order is that the president, as you said, is a temporary occupant. But Congress holds the keys to federal property. They're the permanent landlord. And your money dodge, your money trick of taking private funds is not going to get you out from under the approval that you need from Congress. And he says at the end of his order, you read from the beginning. At the end of his order, he says, good news, President. My paraphrase, you've got time. Go to Congress. You control it, go to Congress, try to get an authorization. They may even find money for you. But what you're doing now in comparing pools and you know, every major project in the last 150 years for the White House has been approved by Congress. The North Portico, the South Portico, right. The total renovation and remodeling and gutting during Truman's time to replace AC and wiring and plumbing, all approved. Even Donald Trump in 2019. And all he was doing is putting up a fence. He knew he had to go to Congress to get an approval. That took nine months. And now that Donald Trump has figured out if he controls these two committees, because some people coming into the show tonight be like, didn't they just approve this? Sort of. The Fine Arts Commission, completely under Donald Trump's control, spent a total of 12 minutes approving his plans. 12 minutes. I joked with people that I had to appear before a planning board in New York to get some shutters and a flagpole approved. It took me a year and a half and a three hour hearing. Okay. And I wasn't knocking down the East Wing, if you know what I mean. Then it goes to the National Planning Commission, which on Thursday voted Again, in record time to approve the ballroom. But that's not congressional approval. These are just committees along the way that have to approve that Donald Trump has taken control of, much like the Kennedy center and the rest. And so what you and I thought, and I did a hot take on this right before, right after Monday or Tuesday, after our Saturday together last week. And I said, attention. We know some judges watch our show. Attention. Judge LEON there's, as you know, there's a big hearing on Thursday, this past Thursday for the National Planning Commission. You've been sitting on your injunction since the beginning of March. Now would be a good time. And all of a sudden, lo and behold, he issues the injunction, the red tag stop work order. Now, back to your video clip. Trump fancies himself some sort of Bob the Builder. You know, I'm the builder. I'm the, you know, I'm Robert Moses. I'm, you know, I'm the ones who built the pyramids in Egypt. You know, he's, he's all things, but he can't understand the comment that the judge made, which was, I acknowledge that there's a giant hole of Donald Trump's own making next to the White House. I'm stopping the vertical construction. And he lists all the things, landscaping, excavation, foundation work, vertical construction, everything related to the ballroom, except secure the site. Secure. Now, if the judge had been guided by people who do construction law, and I've done a fair amount of construction law and litigation in my career, he would have used a sort of a different term of art. He would have said, you're allowed to secure the site, get a tarp over it, get some sandbags out there, make sure nobody can crawl into the White House from a hole that you created. That's called securing the job site. That's the language he should have used. What he used was, if it relates to the security of the White House, you can do that, but don't do anything else towards contributing towards the ballroom. Donald Trump is like, security ballroom. Oh, I can continue to build. So within an hour or two of that video you just played, Greg Craigs, who's representing the National Trust, filed his motion for clarification, which is still sitting with the judge, which points to that very video you just played and says,

[Sponsor Voice]

see, Judge, he's intentionally misinterpreting your order,

[Michael Popak]

and he thinks he can still build his ballroom with your red tag on it. So now we're waiting what we're waiting for. And I'll do an update on Substack live for Legal AF or something. Like that when the judge issues his order of clarification, I think he should. And I'm glad that they ran in for a motion for clarification. I'll tell you why. And this is where we, you and I sort of nerd out on procedure. There was one error that was made in an order that you and I covered extensively when Judge Curry fired Lindsey Halligan, found her illegally appointed as a U.S. attorney. But the language that she used was a little bit loose about whether there needed to be an appointment of if she was thrown out of the job and enjoined from going back to work and the process that was necessary or acknowledged to fill that spot. And that kept Lindsey Halligan in her role for another four months. As the Department of Justice says, that only applies to this case or that doesn't apply overall. And this and that. All she had to do and all the lawyers really needed to do was file. And I thought they were going to file a motion for clarification to get Judge Curry to fix her order. Judges can do it sometimes on their own, like if they see it. But you should not if you want to be. You got to be on top of things with the Trump administration. You can't, as you've said, you give him a finger, he takes your whole life. You give him a little bit of a vague language and an order. Oh, I can build the ballroom. So I kudos to the lawyers, the National Trust to running back in quickly with a motion for clarification to get that order resolved. What's the end result? Trump, if he feels he's got the votes and you think he'd do it now before the midterms, when he certainly is not going to have them. He would try to get the House and the Senate to approve this ballroom, maybe fund it and blame the Democrats or whatever instead. Or they could do it parallel, at the same time, fight the case to the appellate court, which is the next stop, based on the ruling by Judge Leon, and then maybe throw a hand grenade into the Supreme Court, which is which. Which John Roberts definitely, as we'll see later in our next segments or so, definitely does not want or need, about whether he's got the power to tear down half the White House as they're trying to get the heck out of Washington and drop their last order by June. But that is so there'll be that. There'll be weather and I haven't heard of maybe. And maybe Scott McFarland, when we have him back on and he does his reporting, maybe he can figure out from his visits on Capitol Hill. Whether there's any move afoot by the Trump administration to try to double track this and get the House and the Senate to approve the ballroom. The end result is what you and I have said from the very beginning. Whether it's the ballroom or the Kennedy center naming or his attempts to put his name on a peace institute or on money or whatever he's trying to do, you know, as any super narcissist tries to do when they know they're about to get thrown out of office or be made lame duck. We're going to have to fix all this. You know, much like they tore down the Saddam Hussein statues after that regime fell, we're going to be left spending taxpayer dollars, you know, doing something with the ballroom, maybe putting the east wing back up, you know, taking chiseling the names off of everything, taking the arc, the triumph down. Whatever he's, whatever he's building now, we're going to have to live with and fix in the future. And he's just hoping that we don't have the political will or money to do it. I think we do.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Oh, we're going to do it. It's going to be great. We are going to rejoice those moments where the statues come down and the names come down.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Ooh. Midas Touch network will be right there with our Washington D.C. bureau with the people, as always.

[Legal AF Host 2]

One other thing I want to point

[Legal AF Host 1]

out, you know, Donald Trump's been lying

[Legal AF Host 2]

and saying that the funds are coming from all private donors and that there's no public funds in all of this.

[Legal AF Host 1]

First off, that doesn't matter in the analysis. You can't usurp congressional's power of the purse.

[Legal AF Host 2]

And this is one of the things

[Legal AF Host 1]

that Judge Leon said by having private individuals, billionaire buddies of yours, right wing

[Legal AF Host 2]

oligarchs, you know, fund this thing.

[Legal AF Host 1]

By the way, Congress, if they want

[Legal AF Host 2]

to, can allow those private right wing oligarch people to fund it.

[Legal AF Host 1]

But it's got to be codified in a law so that we know it's actually happening.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Right?

[Legal AF Host 1]

And it's not BS and it's just being, we're being told that's what happening, but that's not what's happening. So if Donald Trump's just saying the ballroom is a shed and the real purpose is the bunker and it's all this national security purposes, we shouldn't have right wing oligarchs funding the national security apparatus. And that's not what they're doing. I mean, we likely know that. I'M sure there's hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money that's going into this new bunker and that's going into White House renovations. And by the way, when you looked at Donald Trump's latest 2027 budget, where it has $1.5 trillion in military spending while cutting major social programs and health care and housing and urban development programs

[Legal AF Host 2]

to help low income people get houses

[Legal AF Host 1]

and cuts FEMA and it cuts the NIH and so many other things, it has around $350 million. Interesting number because it's right around the number that Donald Trump said the East Ballroom Eastwood Ballroom renovations would be has about $350 million for renovations, another 150 million DOL miscellaneous renovations. And, and so where's that money going to? So a lot of money is going to White House renovations that's in that 2027 budget and that doesn't even include the bunker because I think those things would be included in the military appropriations portion in that $1.5 trillion number, which increases the military budget 40% from the prior year, basically 100% from when Biden was in office. And it's the biggest year over year increase in military spending since World War II. And Donald Trump was on video saying, we don't have enough money for health care, we don't have enough money for social programs. We're a big country, okay? We have to spend the money on war. A direct quote from Donald Trump at the end of last week. All right, let's take our first break of the show. If you or someone you know has been injured in a car accident, trucking accident, injured by the negligence of a company or negligence of others, or if you know somebody who's been injured by the negligence of others, or maybe you know a family who's looking for a

[Legal AF Host 2]

lawyer because one of their loved ones

[Legal AF Host 1]

was killed in an accident, don't be shy. Call the Popoc Firm today. Call or text 877- POPOCAF or visit thepopoc firm.com Popox Firm gives you a free consultation. Lots of legal AF listeners and viewers have called the Popoc firm or went to the website. And Popo's representing a lot of people. So don't be sh. You trust him and he fights for you. 877 popoc or visit thepopocfirm.com also make sure you subscribe to the legal AF substack and also make sure you subscribe on the Legal AF YouTube channel. Let's get that YouTube channel. Two million subscribers. All right, let's take our first break of the show. That was a long segment, but we covered a lot of topics. We will be right back after a quick break.

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[Legal AF Host 2]

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[Legal AF Host 1]

So Pam Bondi.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Pam Bondi was fired this past week. According to reports, she was begging to keep her job. Apparently, Donald Trump told her right before he gave that disastrous address to the nation regarding the war in Iran, whatever the hell that was supposed to be. He was seen in a car with Bondi earlier in the day. And then he apparently told her right before that speech the next morning, he fired her. That night, he fired her. And then it was announced publicly. And again, we heard that she was begging for her job. Please don't do this. Please don't fire me. But Pam Bondi was fired. There were people who were saying, ah, maybe it's because she tipped off Eric Swalwell about an FBI investigation or the FBI was going to release an investigative file into Swalwell's background or with a Chinese spy or something, whatever they attack Swalwell for. Swalwell's like, you think I'm talking to Bondi? Like, what are you talking about? Like, that's. That never. That never happened.

[Legal AF Host 1]

I mean, but I think we all

[Legal AF Host 2]

know what the issue was. I mean, Bondi was not able to cover up the Epstein files the way Donald Trump thought she was going to do. The COVID up was botched. And this was an attempt to be

[Legal AF Host 1]

like, all right, Bondi's gone, so I guess we just don't have to talk about Epstein anymore. Right? We've moved beyond that. And, you know, the Democrats, to their

[Legal AF Host 2]

credit, right away came out with statements

[Legal AF Host 1]

saying, nope, Pam Bondi is still under subpoena. Not in her capacity as Attorney general. As the name Pam Bondi, she needs to show up before the House oversight

[Legal AF Host 2]

committee on April 14.

[Legal AF Host 1]

She doesn't get out of that deposition

[Legal AF Host 2]

just because she got fired.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And also, we're not going to stop

[Legal AF Host 2]

investigating the Epstein files and digging up the COVID up. And there's still millions of documents that have not been produced that are still being covered up. There are still major portions of the investigation that are being covered up.

[Legal AF Host 1]

I mean, we've been talking about like money laundering investigations into Epstein, that whole

[Legal AF Host 2]

file apparently has been covered up. Drug trafficking investigations into Epstein that ran

[Legal AF Host 1]

adjacent to his child sex trafficking ring,

[Legal AF Host 2]

same thing with his money laundering ring. That entire investigation and the portions therein, you know, being covered up.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And so Pam Bondi is out. Attorney General is now an acting Attorney general.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Todd Blanche, people were saying, is it

[Legal AF Host 1]

going to be Lee Zeldin, the EPA director? Is he going to be the next Attorney general? Whoever becomes the AG has to be Senate confirmed.

[Legal AF Host 2]

And obviously, lots of people feel that

[Legal AF Host 1]

Todd Blanche, based upon his involvement in

[Legal AF Host 2]

covering up the Epstein files and being Donald Trump's former criminal defense attorney and

[Legal AF Host 1]

working with Ghislaine Maxwell to move her

[Legal AF Host 2]

into Club Fed over in Camp Bryant in Texas, and all of the things

[Legal AF Host 1]

that he said that he's really not

[Legal AF Host 2]

someone the Senate can confirm and that his hearing for a confirmation, if Trump tried to make him the Attorney General

[Legal AF Host 1]

would be a complete and utter disaster.

[Legal AF Host 2]

But we'll keep you posted there.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Meanwhile, you had lots of federal prosecutors

[Legal AF Host 2]

across the country, who are the career prosecutors who have not quit or been

[Legal AF Host 1]

fired, rejoicing that Pam Bondi's gone.

[Legal AF Host 2]

They were posting photos or sending photos to the media of throwing out Pam Bondi's portrait. And they threw out her portrait right away.

[Legal AF Host 1]

One of the stories Pam Bondi would always try to tell is that when she first became Attorney General, she, like, saw that Biden's portrait and Merrick Garland had not been taken down in one of the offices. And so she took it down herself. And then she, like, basically disciplined and retaliated against one of the top career

[Legal AF Host 2]

federal prosecutors who dealt with national security

[Legal AF Host 1]

issues for, and blamed that guy for keeping the portraits up. And that was kind of a story

[Legal AF Host 2]

that was told amongst the federal prosecutorial

[Legal AF Host 1]

community right away about just what an

[Legal AF Host 2]

evil individual that she was.

[Legal AF Host 1]

But her legacy will always be shame. And, you know, all the disgusting things

[Legal AF Host 2]

she did, most prominently covering up the child sex trafficking ring.

[Legal AF Host 1]

But I'll show you what Todd Blanche said. You know, even when you have Jesse

[Legal AF Host 2]

Waters, kind of the Fox chief propagandist

[Legal AF Host 1]

right now, telling, you know, looking at the acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, like, I'm not sure you really understand the

[Legal AF Host 2]

way people feel about these Epstein files,

[Legal AF Host 1]

I'll show you what Todd Blanche had

[Legal AF Host 2]

to say with Jesse Waters right after the news of Pam Bondi being fired, here's what Todd Bland said about the Epstein files.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Let's play it now.

[Todd Blanche (clip)]

The Epstein files, you'd agree, not handled well. And I don't, first of all, I have never heard President Trump say that the attorney general was that anything that happened to her had anything to do with the Epstein files. And so look, the Epstein files has been a saga that's lasted for the entire, for the past year. And what happened when the president signed the Transparency act is the Department of Justice has now released all the files with respect to the Epstein saga. And the Attorney General Bondi and I appeared in front of Congress voluntarily a couple weeks ago to answer any questions they had. We have made every single congressman, senator available to come and see any document redacted, unredacted that they want. And so I think that to the extent that the Epstein files was a part of, of the past year of this Justice Department, it will should not be a part of anything going forward.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Michael Popak, what do you make of it all?

[Michael Popak]

I think one of the reasons that people we're going to go through, the reasons Pam Bondi was fired, but I think one of the reasons come to legal AF and trust what you and I do is to get some value add, right. You've heard the headline Pam Bondi out, right? But, but the ramifications of that, the dominoes from that, the, the impact politically and legally and our legal institutions of it. I think that's what people want to hear try to cover that here. Pam Bondi to refute the talking point from MAGA and even from Donald Trump. She died the death of a thousand paper cuts because she's incompetent. And Donald Trump at least needed the head. No, the, the, the made up the imaginary head of the Department of Justice because Donald Trump has made it clear that he is the head of the Department of Justice, that he is the chief law enforcement officer. He has said it. And if people found that unsettling when the criminal in chief, felon in chief told the American people, good news everybody. I'm in charge of the Department of Justice. There is no barrier. There is no independence. It is an executive branch office. It will sit in the White House literally and meet with me about cases and about outcomes and Pam Bondi will be my communicator about these issues. And she's a terrible communicator. He knew that though. I think loyalty got her the job. Not the first choice. You know, when you and I did our reporting about the transition team, the first choice on the org chart for the head of the Department of Justice was Aileen Cannon. It was leaked. The list was leaked. Never denied by the transitions team, let alone Judge Cannon. We'll talk about her when we get to the Supreme Court next. And then when that didn't pan out with Todd Blanche as the number two, even then, despite him trying out for the job for the moment, he left Cadwallader, Wickersham and Taft, a big white shoe firm in New York. But they didn't want him to represent Donald Trump. Setting up his own shop with Emil Bovey to represent Donald Trump. And look, let's give credit where credit is due, even if it's on the side of darkness. He did a good job for Donald Trump. You know, he. Donald Trump gets convicted of 34 felony counts, but, you know, really, with the reelection and the sentencing, you know, other than having it permanently branded on him, historically, he survived that. The other criminal prosecutions either got dismissed through Judge Cannon or got blocked by the new Department of Justice after Donald Trump won a second term. And he got him immunity, being on the team that argued at the United States Supreme Court and got him a declaration by the Supreme Court that he's not an insurrectionist, and that wouldn't be enough to keep him off the ballot. So, by all accounts, Todd Blanche, other than not being as MAGA as MAGA would like, and. And suspicions that he's been a Democrat this whole time, as opposed to being what he calls himself a principled conservative, he's been trying out since day one, even when he was interviewed, I think in New York magazine or New Yorker magazine about, why did you join Donald Trump? Why wouldn't you? You know, and implicit was, I want to be Attorney General, so he gets passed over. And even. Even then, it's not Pam Bondi number two, it's Matt Gates. We'll talk about a Florida connection for Donald Trump and Attorney General's Attorneys General Matt Gaetz, who had a sticky little problem of child sex trafficking allegations and had a. Never got through the. Never got to the confirmation process. And then it was again passover of Todd Blanche. Pam Bundy, an impeachment lawyer and Attorney general in Florida at one time, not a federal prosecutor, not a federal anything, and he needed her to at least be a good communicator. She's terrible for all the grief that Kamala Harris took unwarranted for being, you know, oh, a word salad. You never can understand anything she says. Pam Bondi's worse. Bamboni has been worse. And this, even though you and I said this performative act of hers that met its match in Congress, in the House and the Senate, during hearings in which she came with her burn book, and instead of answering questions, just attacking the person Asking the question and then reeling off. And I think we'll talk about it later. Reeling off, she can't even get it right. Reeling off statistics about the economy instead of answering questions about the Epstein matter. All came to a head. You. And I said, why is she doing that? It's not helping in the eyes of the American people or otherwise. He said, oh, she has an audience of one. It's Donald Trump. But that works the other way too. That audience of one did not think she did well in those. And I think the couple of final nails in the coffin is when she ran down to Congress two weeks ago to try to cut off at the pass, Representative Comer's, the chair of the Oversight Committee, subpoenaed to her about the Epstein matter and said, and this obviously choreographed with Comer, I'll go down with Todd Blanche and I'll get in a room with the Democrats and we'll, we'll just let them ask, answer questions, ask the questions. And, and the only question that the Democrats had, led by people like Representative Summer Lee and others, was you're showing up for the 14th for your sworn in testimony. Right. And she wouldn't give a straight answer. And the whole thing devolved into a screaming match with her and the Republican and the Democrats getting the better of her. Summer Lee being called the B word or the equivalent of it by Comer. The whole thing looked terrible. And that might have been one of the last straws for Pam Bondi. But if you want to go back further and go back to the Vanity Fair interview that Chris, that Susie Wiles gave the chief of staff, even though supposedly she's friends with Bondi, that was, that was, that was damning, what we call damning. Faint praise. When she said effectively Pam Bondi did not cover herself in glory with the way she handled the Epstein files. This was after Pam Bondi said, and I've got the list, the client list right here on my desk, you know, and then six months later, she's been backtracking ever since. So when you lose Susie Wiles, which apparently she did, you lose Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee and the House Judiciary Committee, which she had, you lose the right wing social media MAGA influencers like Laura Loomer, who's been calling her Pam Blondie and calling for her head since the beginning of the administration. When over the Epstein file handling or mishandling. When you lose all these group, then who is your support group? And this is a message to women who want to work for Donald Trump, future attorneys general, that want to work for Donald Trump. You know, it's a short term gig. And if you're a woman, it's even a shorter term gig in the Maga Trump world. So Bondi goes the question is now who's going to replace her as Donald Trump? And we'll talk about in the Supreme Court segment also seems to be rocking the boat to get another pick on the United States States Supreme Court. There might be some overlapping lists here, but the problem that they have is that many of the people on the short list for the attorney general because when Donald Trump announced that Todd Blanche would be the interim attorney general, he did not end the race to replace his coach by saying, and I'm nominating him to be confirmed in the Senate to have the job. And by the way, he probably would get confirmed in this particular Senate, Todd Blanche. I mean, he didn't say that. He's letting it play out for another Hunger Games race to see who's going to kiss enough butt for Donald Trump to get the job. But he's got a major Thom Tillis problem. Yes, the same Thom Tillis that has effectively been blocking his Federal Reserve chair pick, Kevin Warsh, although there's going to be in mid April apparently some sort of confirmation process starting. But Thom Tillis has said two things lately that matter. A Republican who doesn't care because he's not running for reelection. One, I'm not going to vote for your Fed Reserve chair pick. And that ends for jay powell on 15 May unless you clear him and kill that criminal investigation of Jay Powell for something wrongdoing related to testimony in Congress or construction of the building for the Federal Reserve. And he just said, I'll play the clip in a second. I'm not going to vote. I'm going to he's on the Judiciary Committee as well. I'm going to step over with the Democrats and block any attorney general candidate that's a election denier or JAD6 propagandist. Can we let's play that clip.

[Thom Tillis (clip)]

Two pieces. One is the investigation of Jerome Powell. There will not be another Fed chair confirmed until that's disposed of or until for the first time since the allegations were made public, they could actually prove there's even a scintilla of criminal activity. We have seven Republican members of the Banking Committee saying there wasn't. Now separate matter for me, the threshold for somebody following Pam Bondi ends the moment I hear they said one thing that excused the events of January 6th. I've been very clear on that. So I hope whoever they have in mind to follow. General Bondi was very clear eyed on my position on January 6th. That's why I didn't support two other nominees who were coming through Judiciary Committee. And I won't support any nominee who thought that any element of January six was excused.

[Michael Popak]

Yeah. So when you look at that list, it shortens the list considerably. The list that seems to be accumulating. And you and I know some of these people. Harmeet Dillon, who's been trying out for Attorney General for a long, long time. Full disclosure, I litigated a case with her once, a couple of cases with her actually. She's in the Civil Rights Division. Headed that division. Completely destroyed what the Civil Rights Division has ever been about since its founding in the 1950s. And everybody has left streaming having worked there. But she's been angling for that job since she lost the Republican National Committee chairmanship position. Lee Zeldin, a talk about continuing the political hackism of the Department of Justice. Lee Zeldin, a little known congressman from Long Island. I don't know, maybe he was in the Brothers district at one time. Now the EPA administrator who just spends his entire time getting rid of all the protections that, that give us clean air and clean water. He's yes, he's a lawyer, but no, he's never practiced in federal court. At best he's been a military lawyer working for the JAG Corps. But he's got the chops for being a pit bull for Donald Trump. So you got Lee Zeldin, you've got, you've got that person. I don't think Aileen Cannon is going to give up her, her lifetime appointment federal job for the short term gig of being an attorney general because I think she's holding out for the Supreme Court position. I don't think they take Emil Bovey back off the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals because I think they're saving him for potentially being United States Supreme Court. Mike Lee, Senator from Utah he's not giving up his day job in his senator position to be, you know, maybe six months or a year of an attorney general. Given the, given the lifespan of Donald Trump's attorneys general, it's a thankless job, as you can see. So you got to pick somebody who's sees this as a leg up on their career. Turning to Florida for a minute, I do have a dark horse candidate in Jason Redding quinones, who's the U.S. attorney, Southern District of Florida who Donald Trump has been using to go after his political targets like Comey again and John Brennan again, he's a former short term Miami state judge. He was in a circuit court judge, he was in the military. I think he was in the Marines. He was in the U.S. attorney's office. He's relatively the right age. I could see Quinones going. I'll take it as a stepping stone to some other things in the MAGA world. There's other people that have been considered and Todd Blanche is still apparently in the running although not trusted by the inner inner circle for Donald Trump. You and I talked about. I caught a shocking podcast clip when I was doing research for another video of Peter ticketon of the 80 something year old former military academy, high school roommate of of Todd of Donald Trump who Trump often uses to take cases that no other self respecting lawyer will take in the MAGA world. And and I was shocked to see him on I don't know if it was on the I won't name the podcast, it's ones that nobody watches. But he did say that Pam Bondi is not to blame for the failures of the Department of Justice. It was Todd Blanche and not going after the political enemies of Donald Trump, which is a talking point of maga. But more importantly, Ticketing doesn't say anything unless Donald Trump lets him say it. He obviously wanted to destabilize or at least signal to Todd Blanche that, you know, you got a lot of work to do to get back into my loyal, into my loyal camp before I even consider you for Attorney General.

[Legal AF Host 2]

We'll continue to follow it every step of the way here on Legal af. Comprehensive overview right there by Michael Popak. Going to take a quick break right now. Just remind everybody if you or anyone you know has been involved in an aut accident, a trucking accident. If you've been injured by the negligence of somebody else or especially a company or truck or something belonging to a company injured, you reach out to the Popoc Firm. Call or text 877-popocaf or visit thepopocfirm.com they're available 24 7. They've got people in all 50 states who can answer your questions. The consultation is free and you may

[Legal AF Host 1]

know somebody or a family looking for a lawyer.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Maybe something catastrophic happened sadly and they need a lawyer. Reach out to Popox Firm 877, Popoc or the popocfirm.com also subscribe to Legal AF on Substack. That substack is growing fast. And subscribe to Legal AF on YouTube as well.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Also Popak tell everybody right now about the webbies.

[Michael Popak]

Yes, the Webby awards, which is like the Oscars for podcast.

[Sponsor Voice]

Both Legal AF is up for best podcast in news.

[Michael Popak]

And a show that I do on Midas, where I kind of ride solo called the Intersection, is up for best new podcast in news. It's now down to a popular vote, if you will. It's the, it's the, it's the People's Voice award. We are currently number one with 12 days to go. But we need and would love to get that award and it gives you the ability. Early voting is open. We're always in favor of early voting here on Midas.

[Sponsor Voice]

Touches Legal AF.

[Michael Popak]

The links are below. 12 days to go and if we win, we go to New York and accept the award on our audience's behalf. And it gives me an opportunity to reunite with the brothers.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Let's do it, everybody. You know what to do. Let's get Legal AF number one. Let's get that award. All right, let's take our last quick break of the show. We'll be right back.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Michael Popak]

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[Michael Popak]

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[Michael Popak]

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[Legal AF Host 2]

A F welcome back to legal AF. Thank you to all of our sponsors for some supporting the show. Let's just get right into it. Michael Popak There was oral arguments this week, a case for the United States Supreme Court involving Donald Trump trying to overturn the 14th Amendment via an executive order. Just the fact that I even have to say that sentence that you're trying to overrule a constitutional amendment via an executive order. So everybody knows executive orders are not laws, just supposed to be the interpretation of the executive branch. How existing laws should be implemented to the extent to which something is interpreted

[Legal AF Host 1]

has to be within the bounds of a law. So yet alone, we're talking about using

[Legal AF Host 2]

an executive order to try to say the 14th amendment doesn't say what the

[Legal AF Host 1]

14th amendment says without even me telling you what the 14th amendment says. The very structure of that, that concept that an executive order is trying to overrule an amendment, is something that should tell you already that it's the height of frivolous. But let me just read for you what the 14th Amendment says.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction

[Legal AF Host 1]

thereof are citizens of the United States and of the states wherein they reside.

[Legal AF Host 2]

It also goes on to state, no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities

[Legal AF Host 1]

of citizens of the United States. And so, based on that interpretation, Donald Trump reads the words, the opposite of

[Legal AF Host 2]

what it says and says, if you're born here, that does not make you a citizen. If you were born from somebody who was a migrant, who was here, who was not a citizen at the time that they gave birth, you just can see for yourself or hear for yourself what the 14th Amendment says.

[Legal AF Host 1]

So all of the courts across the

[Legal AF Host 2]

country rejected Donald Trump's executive order, and they blocked it. Donald Trump appealed, filed what's called a petition for certiorari, all the way to the Supreme Court.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Some people were surprised that the Supreme

[Legal AF Host 2]

Court even took oral argument on it because it's so frivolous. Although I think given perhaps the, I guess the cloud hanging over so many people's head, the ramifications of such a

[Legal AF Host 1]

horrific interpretation, you know, the Supreme Court thought that they should hear.

[Legal AF Host 2]

They should hear it. So they heard oral arguments this week.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Donald Trump said he was going to attend it.

[Legal AF Host 2]

So Donald Trump showed up there trying to act all tough and strong. He was there while his Solicitor General, which is like one of the top positions at the Department of Justice, they're responsible for doing oral arguments and arguing and briefing before the Supreme Court. It's called the Solicitor General. That's the position. The guy who is in that position

[Legal AF Host 1]

right now is somebody by the name of John Sauer.

[Legal AF Host 2]

So Donald Trump listened to John Sauer's oral argument, and the Supreme Court was

[Legal AF Host 1]

not having any of it, and basically

[Legal AF Host 2]

said, yeah, but that's not what the Constitution says.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And the Supreme Court would ask him questions, too.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Like, so is your view that, like,

[Legal AF Host 1]

Native Americans and indigenous people here are not actually citizens?

[Legal AF Host 2]

And Donald Trump's solicitor General was like, huh, I never thought about it that way.

[Legal AF Host 1]

So maybe they're not.

[Legal AF Host 2]

I don't know, there were just some ridiculous moments. Everyone knew.

[Legal AF Host 1]

I don't know if it's gonna be a 9 to 0 ruling or a

[Legal AF Host 2]

7 to 2 ruling ruling or 8 to 1 ruling. I'll get your take on it, Popak, but Trump, Trump's gonna lose this one and lose it big. And this was one of like we

[Legal AF Host 1]

talked about like his ballroom. That's like the main thing. And he loves, and he loves harassing

[Legal AF Host 2]

people who are here who look different than him. And so this is also like one

[Legal AF Host 1]

of the things he wanted to do

[Legal AF Host 2]

was terrorize and torture people who are

[Legal AF Host 1]

citizens here and remove birthright citizenship as

[Legal AF Host 2]

a, as a avenue for citizenship.

[Legal AF Host 1]

I'll just show you two portions that

[Legal AF Host 2]

I found notable before throwing it to you, Popak, from this oral argument that happened this week.

[Legal AF Host 1]

And then as Donald Trump heard where this is going, he threw a tantrum and then just walked out in the

[Legal AF Host 2]

middle of the argument before the ACLU

[Legal AF Host 1]

lawyer made her argument. And it's like, dude, you showed up in the supreme, like, it's such loser behavior going back to the beginning. It's like you don't need to show up, number one. But if you're going to show up, just be a decent human being. You know, it's not like these oral arguments last hours. I mean, at Most they go 90 minutes, oftentimes shorter. Your lawyer argued, you sit there, be respectful, let the other lawyer make the argument, you know, and then you leave when it's done. But he stormed out in the middle of it through a tantrum. It's just again, the behavior is objectively just the way loser human beings behave. You know, and he's a loser. He's been a lifelong loser. He's just a lifelong terrible, vile piece of trash his entire life who fraud, defrauded people, bankrupted things, screwed people over, lied about everything. He's doing it again. Let me go to those two notable points right here. This is when Justice Roberts was asking John Sauer, well, what about the fact that the Constitution says nothing that you are claiming it says? How about the Constitution as a document here?

[Legal AF Host 2]

Let's play this clip.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

500 birth tourism companies in the People's Republic of China whose business is to bring people here to give birth in return to, to that nation.

[Michael Popak]

Having said all that, you do agree

[Donald Trump (clip)]

that that has no impact on the

[Legal AF Host 2]

legal analysis before us.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

I think it's, I quote what Justice Scalia said in his Hamdan dissent where they had where like their interpretation has these implications that could not possibly have been approved by the 19th century framers of this amendment. I think that shows that they've made a mess. Their interpretation has made a mess of the provision.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Well, it certainly wasn't a problem in the 19th century.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

No. But of course we're in a new world now, as Justice Alito pointed out, to where 8 billion people are one plane ride away from having a child who's a U.S. citizen.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Well, it's a new world. It's the same constitution it is. And, and then I'll show you another clip right here as well. Let's take a look at where one of the justices asked him about. So what's your view about Justice Gorsuch? Do you think Native American judge, a justice who Donald Trump appointed, do you think Native Americans are birthright citizens under, under your test, your play the split.

[Justice Gorsuch]

Do you think Native Americans today are birthright citizens under your test and under your friend's test?

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

I think so. I mean, obviously been granted citizenship by statute.

[Justice Gorsuch]

Put aside the statute. You think they're birthright citizens.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

No, I think the, the clear understanding that everybody agrees in the congressional debates is that the children of tribal Indians are not birthright citizens.

[Justice Gorsuch]

I understand that's what they said. But your test is the domicile of the parents and that would be the test you'd have us apply today, right?

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

Yes, yes. So a tribal Indian, for example, gives

[Justice Gorsuch]

up allegiance to born today birthright citizens.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

I think so on our test. Yeah. They're lawfully domiciled here.

[Michael Popak]

Okay.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

And then not.

[Michael Popak]

I have to think that through.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

But, but I'll take, that's my reaction.

[Justice Gorsuch]

I'll take the. Yes, that's all right.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Michael Popo, I'll have to think.

[Michael Popak]

No, you're supposed to think it through before you file your papers. And as you're standing in oral argument, even John Sauer, the solicitor general who will say anything even if it means undermining his credibility and refusing to acknowledge illogic in his own argument, wasn't prepared for this or on purpose because there's no argument. You, you played where I said from John Roberts the moment it happened early on. And it was right around that time that Donald Trump stood up and walked out setting history twice. First sitting president to ever attend an oral argument and first sitting president to ever walk out as his hand picked Supreme Court justices rebuked him to his face while he was there and then fired Pam Bondi on the, on the way in. It was a very momentous day that day. But I pointed to that same clip when, when John Sauer said, I think I'll go down in history as, as the, the loser argument that it is. Well, there's, there are, you know, 8 billion people that are only one plain line plane ride away from US Citizenship and it's a whole new world order, but it's the same old constitution. For me that was the weekend at Bernie's moment. He was, John Roberts was dead at that. I mean John Sauer was dead at that moment. In response to John Roberts, you know, you could I joke that it reminded me of the phrase that, that Senator Kennedy used against Kristi Noem when she testified about no competitive bidding or competitive bidding for her ad campaign that got her fired from the, from the Homeland Security, that she's as dead as fried chicken. He was dead as fried chicken at that moment. But it got worse. Everybody and the bookends for me, and I'll just summarize it without playing it is when the, inevitably when the, the Wong Kim Ark case came up. See, as, as complicated as Supreme Court cases can be in oral arguments, this one wasn't. There were four big pieces of paper. I joked in one of my hot takes, it's not like One of these 2000 piece jigsaw puzzles of put the Statue of Liberty together. There's like four big, four big issues here. That's how simple the puzzle was. It was the 14th amendment in the language that you read. It was a statute where Congress codified who is a citizen cribbing exactly, copying and pasting the exact language of the 14th amendment in 1940 and then re codifying it in 1952. Which completely undermines the argument that Donald Trump has made and sour tried to make, which is this constitutional provision is for slave babies. That's Trump's words, not mine. Babies of slaves. Look at the date. Donald Trump said in a social media posting. This has to do with descendants of slaves, not anyone else. Well, the problem with that is it says a person, which is when a drafter or framer of the Constitution or amendment uses the term a person, it is the broadest definition and meaning. It means everybody that's in the United States, regardless of their immigration status or their whether their parents served us, it's the person in the United States. And so you may want to, you could say maybe in 1868 when the reconstruction amendments came out of which the 14th amendment is one. All right. On the minds of the legislators, on the amendment drafters was the newly freed, now black Americans. And a famous decision, infamous decision from the United States Supreme Court at the Time called Dred Scott, which even to this day, you know, in when they teach it in law school, you hear gasps in the room that that was the Supreme Court's position, that human beings in America who happen to be black and slaves, having been brought by, having been brought into involuntary servitude by, by Americans, would now be considered not to be American citizens. So we're human beings at all. So, yes, that's where that amendment came from. But then how do you describe a 1940s Congress during the height of the, of World War II? They weren't worried about the descendants of slaves or black or slave babies. How about 1952 during the Korean War? They weren't thinking about that either. So those are three big pieces of paper. And the last one is the case from 1898, which is the Wong Kim Ark case. And in Wong Kim Ark, a baby born in San Francisco to Chinese parents when he was in his 20s, left the country to go to China to visit family and come back. When he came back, they said, you're not an American citizen. He said, I was born in San Francisco. They said, yeah, but your parents are Chinese. We're not letting you be an American citizen. Because there was a lot of, as there is today, a lot of anti Chinese sentiment. Then Chinese had, much like the, the black, what became black Americans were put into involuntary servitude, many of them, to build the railroads in America. And they're. And there they were not well liked and to say the least in America. And so that went up to the Supreme Court. And Justice Gray famously wrote, with an analysis that's right on point, that Wong Kim Ark is an American citizen with birthright citizenship. That's the case. Now, what you and I had hoped is that why are they even taking this case? Just say the 1898 precedent stands or the federal law that and the executive order violates both of those and be done with it and don't take the case. But no, because the Trump administration was pushing, this is the bulwark of our immigration policy. You must take this case. They took the effing case. We were a little worried. It's a little white knuckle moment. What are they going to do? I said, watch Roberts. Watch Amy Coney Barrett. What I didn't know is how quickly Gorsuch and Kavanaugh would come to the rescue of the Constitution. And so there was this moment about this Wong Kim Ark case where. And I interviewed the American Civil Liberties Union Deputy director of Immigration Rights Project a day before the oral argument About Cecilia Wong? No, I don't think a relation, because I think she spells it W A N G. Cecilia Wong was the advocate for the American Civil Liberties Union against John Sauer. And there's this amazing moment where there's actually laughter. You know, John Sauer's position effectively got. Got. People laughed at it when. When Kavanaugh, of all people, said to Cecilia, let me ask you a question. If we were to find that the Wong Kim ark case from 1898 is dispositive and the precedent here be a pretty short ruling, it would be a pretty short ruling, Right. That would be the easy way to handle this case. Right. And she waited like a beat, like a comedic beat, and she said, yes. And the entire. I don't know if that's the moment Trump walked out, everybody laughed because of the, you know, brevity is the soul of wit. You know, she just can't. You know, that was like a. That was an answer 30 years in the making with her law career, but that was the right answer. And then just moments later, as a bookend, Gorsuch is going back and forth as you played one clip with John Sauer, and John Sauer knowing that he got hurt, and you and I have been, you know, advocates before appellate courts, and, you know, when you get hurt and you know what you got to deal with the next time you get up. And knowing that he got hurt on the Wong Kim Ark precedent, decided to try to use it to his advantage. And he got one second into that, he said, well, in the Wong Kim Ark case, and Gorsuch stopped him and said, I don't think you should be using the Wong Kim Ark case to support your position. So I'm like, okay, so let's just do the math. Donald Trump has to get to five. Is the count to five, life. I'm not even sure how he counts to three. We got Sotomayor Ketanji Brown Jackson, who had a great line in there, and talk about an Orwellian vision. She said, I'm confused. Are we supposed to have pregnant women come in for depositions to talk about their allegiance or that they're going to be subject to the law like in other. I started to picture, you know, a maternity ward attached to a conference center where you whisk these women in, you know, to have depositions under oath? And of course, John. John Sauer had no good answer for it for this thing that was pointed out by Katanji Brown Jackson. So. So to Mayor Katanji Brown Jackson and Kakan, three votes against ripping out the 14th Amendment out of the Constitution by executive order. And then you've got wherever Alito and Thomas are, interestingly enough, besides Donald Trump arriving at this, he threatened to go to the tariffs oral argument. He went to this one. First question out of the box was by, was by Thomas Clarence Thomas, African American, who asked the question about Dred Scott. That case I told you about earlier to kick things off didn't really go anywhere because there's not much to go with that based on, you know, try to give a historical reference to this. So let's put Thomas out there, maybe even Alito. We'll talk about him in a minute too out there. Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Amy Coney, Barrett Roberts. I think slide over. Maybe we lose one. I doubt it. I think it's 8 to 1, 7 to 2. And yes, we should. And I want people who are in favor of the democracy the way we understand it, it to be encouraged when we talk about things like this. But keep it in perspective. The perspective is that in 90% of the emergency docket cases for this term that they've sided with the Trump administration, they let him make a shamble to the federal government, destroy the relationship between the federal government funding and the states and by extension, voters, destroyed federal programs that matter to people and make their life have dignity and affordability, destroyed our standing around the world, including through U.S. aid, let him fire everybody in the executive branch and of course, you know, give him immunity and let him let him run into action, probably side against on voting mail in ballots having a grace period by which they can still be counted after arrival if they've been voted on in time and probably destroy the last semblance of Voting Rights Act. So we're still waiting on some rulings.

[John Sauer (Solicitor General)]

Sure.

[Michael Popak]

We'll probably get a ruling that Donald Trump can't fire Lisa Cook on the Federal Reserve the way he did it. And we'll get this ruling and we got the tariff ruling and a couple of other things, but by and large not a great term for the democracy the way we talk about it. And we something I'll just touch on. You know, we had the Salazar case that came out two days earlier that was actually eight to one, but with everybody in the eight except for Ketanji Brown Jackson to find that a state medical body that regulates like psychotherapy and psychiatrists can't prevent conversion therapy. That's where a therapist tells somebody that it's bad to be gay or transgender and let me tell you why and try to convert them and that led to a Syrian. Gorsuch wrote the decision on that. And that became a whole First Amendment speech thing, which I don't even think is appropriate. I sided with Ketanji Brown Jackson. It would be like, my speech is regulated. I'm a lawyer. You're a lawyer. You don't get to tell people how to commit a crime. You don't get, you know, my speech gets regulated all the time. A pilot in an airplane, you know, doesn't get to say, hey, I'm gonna f with the passengers now. Hey, let's take a vote. Aisle section. Aisle seats first. Who wants me to slam into this mountain? Yeah, that, you know, First Amendment. No, no. There's just certain things that get to be regulated. And so we've had some bad things. So. So when we. We want to put things in perspective, we don't want a hand wring all the time and be the angel of death all the time. And when things go in our favor, we want to talk about it and maybe even celebrate it and talk about the ramifications of it. But we also have to put it into the context that you and I do hourly, daily, and the podcast here on Legal af.

[Legal AF Host 2]

There you have it. Theme of the episode. Trump losing his ag. Trump losing his ballroom. Trump losing oral arguments. You know, look, the Supreme Court, though, has given him way too much. And so, you know, the fight continues. That's why you got to keep on fighting and not lose hope, you know,

[Legal AF Host 1]

and just gotta keep your integrity. Don't bend to fascism. Keep on fighting.

[Legal AF Host 2]

I know it's been tough, but, you

[Legal AF Host 1]

know, the fight that you've been in

[Legal AF Host 2]

is actually showing results, and there's going to be, sadly, a lot more bad

[Legal AF Host 1]

rulings along the way.

[Legal AF Host 2]

There's going to be some good rulings

[Legal AF Host 1]

along the way, but you keep applying the pressure, right?

[Legal AF Host 2]

Pam Bondi, fired. Christine Ome, fired. Who's going to be fired next? Is it going to be Laurie Chavez Darim? Or is it going to be Howard Lutnick? Who else from the Epstein class goes next? Your pressure is working, right?

[Legal AF Host 1]

And part of applying the right type

[Legal AF Host 2]

of pressure, though, is also understanding the legal frameworks, the legal structure, what's going

[Legal AF Host 1]

on behind the scenes.

[Legal AF Host 2]

So we could all be very informed citizens. And that's what we do here on Legal AF every single weekend. And of course, on the Legal AF YouTube channel, every single day.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Popaca.

[Legal AF Host 2]

People want to vote for that legal A.F.

[Legal AF Host 1]

webby Award. What do they do?

[Michael Popak]

Yeah, thanks, Ben. They go, we have 12 more days left until voting ends. This is for the the People's Voice award, which is you deciding who's going to be the top podcast in America for the Webby Awards. Intersection is up for best new podcast for news. And Legal AF is up for best podcast for news. We're currently in the lead among the five final finalists, but it's all by popular vote. It's all by the vote of our audience. Here's an opportunity for you to actually, you know, you like our podcast, you like to keep them on the air. Here's a way to contribute. When we hopefully announce that we've won the Webby Award, we'll accept it on your behalf. We always do all of that. There's a committee that's also gonna gonna award some awards as well. But to be frank, I'd like to win the the People's Voice award because it's really a refle audience, the fellowship and the community that we've built here. And links are below to do the voting. 12 more days, everybody.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Make sure you subscribe to the Legal AF YouTube channel and the Legal AF substack. Let's get those channels to remain at number one and let's get those channels continuing to grow. And then also if you or someone you know have been injured in a car accident, auto accident, or injured by the negligence of a company or the negligence caused by someone, some other entity or Somebody else, call 877 Popak or text 877 Popak or visit thepopoc firm.com Go to thepopoc firm.com They've got. They've got people taking phone calls in all states. Consultation is free. You may know someone who or family or is going through something really tragic and catastrophic. They're looking for a lawyer.

[Legal AF Host 1]

Tell them to reach out to Michael Popo.

[Legal AF Host 2]

Michael's representing a of lot of people who listen and watch legal af 877 popak af. Go to thepopoc firm.com thanks everybody so much for watching this episode of Legal af. Stay in the fight. We're in this together. We'll see you next time on Legal af.