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- [00:02]
Podcast Host
This episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just
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Ben Meiselas
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Ben Meiselas
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Podcast Host
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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- [02:15]
Ben Meiselas
got a lot to discuss on the midweek episode of Legal af. I'm Ben Meiselas, joined by Karen Friedman Agniphiolo let's get into it. Donald Trump trying to tank a bipartisan housing bill, refusing to show up for the signing that the House said Donald Trump would be president. The Good news is that it is a veto proof majority in the House and the Senate. We'll talk about what the ramifications are. But even on an issue like housing, like affordability that can bring Americans together, Donald Trump is trying to tear the nation apart. And then he showed up in on the Capitol today or in the Capitol today and he started screaming at the Republicans in the Senate. We'll talk about what went down. You have a Trump appointed judge in Washington D.C. demanding answers on what the heck is happening with the Reflecting Pool. We have another federal judge in Washington D.C. demanding answers on what the heck is happening in the Kennedy center. We have 101 retired federal and state court judges demanding that Todd Blanche be investigated by the New York State Bar and saying you got to look into this guy. And we'll talk about this letter that was sent by these 101 retired federal judges to the New York bar authorities. And will the cont proceedings in Judge Boasberg, a federal Judge of Washington D.C. will these contempt proceedings be back on? It was derailed by a three judge D.C. circuit Court of Appeal panel. Now it goes to the full D.C. circuit Court of Appeals that agreed to hear this and bonk. We'll talk about the ramifications. But it was about 434 days ago where we're talking about Judge Boasberg on April 16, 2025 finding probable cause that the DOJ and DHS committed CR criminal contempt on March 15, 2025 when it sent 137 Venezuelans to the Seacot Camp detention center. Really looks like a concentration camp out there in Venezuela. We'll talk about this and more. Karen, great to be filling in for Michael Popak today and get to hang out with you again. So great to see you and great to see everybody here.
- [04:27]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
I know it's so fun to see you, Ben. And it's so fun to do this with you. We don't get to do this very often. So this is a huge treat for me to get to do this with you. Although I miss Michael Pop, he's not here. I wasn't sure when I woke up this morning exactly what we'd be talking about because there's over a dozen cases that we're still waiting for from the United States Supreme Court that could come any day. We think they're going to start coming as early as tomorrow Thursday. Things like birthright citizenship and just really monumental decisions. Are we going to be able to vote by mail, et cetera. So there's going to be a lot more news that is going to be breaking in the coming week before the Supreme Court breaks for the whole summer. They come back in October, the first Monday in October. But the biggest cases are yet to come, the biggest decisions. And so again, I didn't know if we were going to be talking about one of those or what we are going to be talking about today. But there is a lot to talk about. So great, so great to see you, Ben.
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Ben Meiselas
You know, my critics, Karen, often say, or the Trump support. Is there anything that he can do that you would speak nicely about and say good job. And so I actually thought this morning would be one of those because there was a housing affordability bill that was passed on a bipartisan basis. And I was thinking in my coverage today, I would say, you know what, as much as I disagree with Trump on everything, this was a bipartisan bill that he signed that would limit the ability of private equity to gobble up single family residences, which is a major problem. This housing bill would also have other mechanisms to try to make housing, especially for first time homeowners, more affordable. And Donald Trump was expected to show up in the Capitol building today, sign this thing to significant fanfare. And I was prepared for my morning video to say that's something that we should all be able to rally behind. I mean, Karen, to have Elizabeth Warren, Democrat, Republican Tim Scott come together and then you had in the House of Representatives similarly, you know, people who you'd view on pretty opposite ends of the spectrum coming together for a housing bill, fantastic, let's celebrate this. And of course, Donald Trump screwed it up and he made it about himself and he threw a temper tantrum and he said you've got to pass the Save America act, which is his voter suppression bill or else I'm not signing this. I'm not going to show up for the signing. And so, you know, you talk about, I wake up in the morning, I'm like, what's going to happen? And it's like, I think like so many Americans, like what's he going to do to screw this up, to make it about him, to inject drama and dystopian reality show behavior? And it's this. He goes, today's news conference and signing is hereby canceled until such time as we pass the desperately needed Save America act, which I consider to be a national emergency. Thank you for your attention to this matter, djt. Now, Karen, the good news, if there is, is that this is a veto proof majority in the House and the Senate. I mean, only 35 members of the House voted against this, only five members of the Senate voted against this. This is how popular is today was supposed to be a day where we can say, man, we got into this catastrophic and unlawful war in Iran, things are really, really bad, but can we move forward and sign this housing bill? Trump screws it up. We'll talk about what happens in the Capitol when he does show up. Starts screaming at the Republican senators for agreeing to four of them, for agreeing with Democrats for concurrent war powers resolution to block Trump's future ability to invade Iran, although it's concurrent, so it's technically non binding as Trump interprets it, or our Supreme Court, that's feckless, interprets it. But Karen, let's start there. I'll toss it to you. What do you make of this moment that should have been bringing together the country and just to me, just another example of everything is toxic and divisive.
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Yeah, I think it's a huge example of that. First of all, it's a terrible day for the American people who with interest rates being so high and only getting higher and will get higher to try to stop this crazy inflation, it was an opportunity for more and more people to have hope that maybe one day they too can become home buyers. But more importantly, I think it really shows how terrified Donald Trump is of the midterm elections, because this was a great bill for him, for everybody, frankly. But for Republicans who could come forward and say, look what we did, and try to win the midterms, or try to not let Democrats take control of the House and the Senate as something they could point to as a bipartisan, look what I did for you, for the economy, for housing. You know, this is an important bill for everybody, but especially the Republicans, and really could have made a potential difference there. And Trump is so terrified that they're going to lose the election that the only way, the only way he still sees that they can win is to cheat. And because that's essentially what the Save America act is, right? This is something that is going to try to make it so that so many people can't and won't vote because it requires ridiculous amounts of proof of citizenship and things that a lot of people don't necessarily have. And so he's trying to take away the rights of so many people to vote because he's afraid he'll lose on the merits, which of course we know he will. All the polling shows that talking to American people show that. And he knows and sees that he's losing. And so rather than give the Republicans who don't have the cult following that he has, but that are really trying to stay afloat and stay elected or at least hold the seats that Republicans already have. This was an issue that they could have used to their advantage. And, and he doesn't care because he doesn't think they can win. He doesn't think they can win on the merits. And so this is just another example of cheating. A question I have for you, Ben, is if so this is passed both the House and the Senate, and for them to override a veto, he has to veto it. But he hasn't vetoed it. Right. So what if he doesn't do anything? What if he just sits on it? How long do they have before it takes effect? If he does nothing or it turns
- [11:14]
Ben Meiselas
into a veto, the good news is 10 days. So there's a veto proof majority here. He can't veto it. So he's going to rail against it, do the performative division, which actually has real consequences. The good news is it will become law in 10 days. The problem is that we depend, our industries depend, the people depend on predictability, reliability and certainty. And this chaos to which he runs all of his businesses into the ground, you can't run an economy like this. It's why our economy is crashing right now. You can't run things like this. And America, which was once a beacon of stability, predictability, frankly creating the architecture, for better or for worse, that was existing globally, which led to the inflows of capital, the dollar being the currency of the world, America being viewed as the stable arbiter of international affairs and being a safe place, a reliable place to invest in, that's going out the window right now. And that has irreparable impact. And even something like this, the fact that we have to ask these questions, what's going to happen next? Becomes a. Because I'll tell you what was happening today. Donald Trump then had his MAGA stooges in the House refuse to go with MAGA Mike to basically pass the rule, which is a fancy way of saying to allow voting on just other House matters to take place. So effectively what Trump did is recognizing it's veto proof he wanted to retaliate. So he got some of his MAGA sycophants like Anna, Pauline and others to lead a revolt and saying, until the Senate passes the Save America America, we're effectively gonna stop work on other legislation in the House. And then you have MAGA Mike, who you know is, you know, feckless and has turned our Congress into the Duma and ultimately who does that impact, that impacts us? I want to that point though, Karen, I want to show this. This is Donald Trump arriving in the Capitol today. You can see how out of breath he is. And you have Senator Thune not wanting to even speak to the press. Donald Trump speaks to the press. And let's talk about, let's show you what he wants to talk about here. Let's play this first clip. The war is going very well. As you know. We're winning by a lot. Iran is making very big concessions. We'll see what happens. But it's been very, very, very powerful. It's going very, very well. Talk about that in a moment. But then a reporter says, okay, but today was housing day. Buying a home. People are struggling. You're also demanding $80 billion now to go to the Iran war, which you claim only costed 29 billion or before that, 20 billion. So what's the deal? What's the deal? Let me show you what goes down here. When a reporter says buying a home is unattainable, do you want to talk about that? Let's play it.
- [14:45]
Podcast Host
Go ahead.
- [14:48]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Buying a home is unattainable for so many Americans. Is this election legislation more important to you than resolving housing?
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Ben Meiselas
This is, every election is important. We're doing very well. They want a lot of communists to come in. I'm saying it a little bit differently, but the people that they're pushing are communists and this country is not going to have communists. Thank you very much. And Karen, it was a softball question about housing. And the easiest answer for anyone with a shred of empathy towards the condition of the American people right now is housing is very important to me. We're going to take all steps to make housing more affordable. Thank you. And then do it. He's incapable of it, Karen.
- [15:35]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Yeah, first of all, he seems strangely out of breath for just walking. It's just further questioning of what his declining health situation is. And second of all, this whole situation is really, it's really just tragic. It's tragic for the American people that he just constantly puts himself and his own interests first before that of the American people. I do have to wonder if he realizes that in 10 days it becomes law, does he then veto it and convince enough Republicans to follow him and change their votes? And if that's even possible actually or politically at point this, this point, so that it's not veto proof in the Senate, I don't know. He'll stop at nothing.
- [16:25]
Ben Meiselas
Now, Karen, the first part about what he talked about, we're winning powerfully with Iran. As you and I know, when it comes to a settlement, a negotiation, a resolution, you don't win powerfully in settlements and negotiation. That's just not what a settlement and a negotiation is. You could win powerfully in the courtroom, you know, as you have as a litigator. You win the case, you get a verdict. The other side, one side wins, one side loses. You could enter into, you know, you can enter into a settlement or a mediation where maybe one side gets more benefit than the other side gets a benefit. But negotiations, deal making is always about giving and taking. That's just the very nature of it. You know, here with this memorandum of Understanding, you can really see why Donald Trump, Trump doesn't like to do actual deals. Because when he's trapped in a real framework with points, we all see what the Memorandum of understanding actually says. We can go through the points. Oh, that's point one, that's point two, that's point three, that's point four. And now when you look at Donald Trump saying, you know, I did $21 trillion deals with this country and that country, and you and I and others have said, okay, well, where's the document? Document showing that. Where's the contract? Where's the thing? It never existed. Why? Because he's a fraud. He doesn't want to actually have a document. He just wants to use oral arrangements to manipulate facts and then, you know, behave. But the problem is that doesn't create the certainty and predictability. So here, Karen, the oddest part of it and the dangerous part is we now have an mou. We know what the obligations are, and he'll still, you know, we'll talk a little bit about the reflecting pool. You'll see everything, and he'll get, ah, there was a secret arrangement that nobody knows about. Or Rubio, when he's right now in the Middle east, you know, Rubio, the Secretary of State, who was too busy refusing to go to Switzerland, you know, didn't be involved in technical. Iran knows what their obligations actually are. Yes, there's this. But there's, there's secret side arrangements. And it's like, no, there isn't. Here's the deal. This is what we're bound by. And he seems.
- [18:35]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
And it's worse than where we were before. That's what's crazy. It's actually worse than the deal we had with them before. You know, he's going to end this war and he's going to buy. He's created a situation that is worse than where we started. That is what's astonishing to me that he's this great deal maker. What did we get out of this other than making enemies all over the world, spending billions of dollars for this war that nobody wanted and nobody asked for, destabilizing the global economy. Now, the Strait of Hormuz that was always open and now is essentially closed, or Iran controls it and Iran's going to have access to money that they did not have access to before. We're giving them money, our trade. We're going to be, he says things like, oh, they're going to buy this much in soybeans, et cetera. It's less than the amount that was previously what we used to export to them. And they will have ballistic missiles, even though he said they will never have ballistic missiles. They will have the ability to enrich uranium, even though he said that'll never be the case. And we didn't get regime change. So I just don't understand. Oh, it's going great. It's going great. I just don't get it.
- [19:56]
Ben Meiselas
Yeah, I mean, the jcpoa, hundreds of pages, maybe over a thousand very specific, meticulous details, terms, obligations. You and I are used to that. That's the crazy thing about this is you and I, and you certainly way more than me being involved in the highest level of litigations and cases right now that are taking place across the country. You know, high stakes negotiations, how you handle how people behave, the give and take and all of that. When I was practicing, I was involved in some high level stuff. And what's taking place, what previously took place, I would, not under the Trump regime, but under other administrations. I would admire the delicacy and the craft involved in deal making constituencies, building consensus and recognizing how hard that is. And right now it just looks to be the most foolish people out there saying, oh, this is the most powerful deal. We're winning there. We're just like. We're not. We're not. We have to live in reality. Come back from our first break, Karen. Let's talk about, you know, what's going on. I mean, when you have all these National Guard troops now lining up across the reflecting pool, when a Taurus touches the water, they get, they get arrested. We have all these AI devices, you know, and it's, you know, that are, that are everywhere trying to detect is someone going to be touching the water and the reflecting pool. Let me be very clear, Karen. And everybody, that's our water. It's not Donald Trump's water. Anyway, the very idea that we're now criminalizing the touching of water in a reflecting pool. And that's a major priority of this regime that's done so much damage to the Washington, D.C. area and has turned it into this thing that looks like a dystopian junkyard. It really is a visual of the destruction of Rome, of the destruction of the United States before our eyes. You never. It's almost on so on point. The symbolism that you ask, like, are we living in a simulation? Because this script right here is almost too unfathomable that if you wrote this, you'd be like, huh. Anyway, let's, let's take our first quick break of the show. We've got a lot to discuss, more. We'll talk about the 101 federal judges who have done this letter against Blanche. We'll talk about potential contempt proceedings. Will they restart? What will the Inbo panel do regarding the Venezuelan sea cot torture? And we'll talk about the Kennedy center updates, the reflecting pool litigation updates, the ballroom litigation updates. Let's take our first break of the show.
- [22:45]
Podcast Host
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- [25:58]
Ben Meiselas
Welcome back to Legal AF. Thank you to all of our sponsors. A great honor to be side by side with Karen Friedman Agnifolo for this episode. Of course we miss Popak. Let's get right into it, Karen. Judge Christopher Cooper, Washington, D.C. federal judge ordered the Kennedy center to report by next month on the purpose of the tarp and scaffolding currently covering the area where Trump's name was removed pursuant to an earlier Cooper order. This was the federal judge who said remove Trump's name. Operate the Kennedy center like it was meant to be operated for the public good. You know, do your stop destroying a memorial to John F. Kennedy and a public good benefit to the D.C. community and to our country with your pettiness and and the Trump regime fought in every which way. Even the Trump sympathetic Judges on the D.C. circuit wouldn't agree to stay. What Donald Trump was demanding that he keep his name on there. They changed the bylaws. They changed the bylaws of the Kennedy center and said that if Trump's name is removed, basically the Kennedy center goes bankrupt because it has to return all of the money that it received because the board, in obviously breaching fiduciary obligations to the Kennedy center and at large, said it's the Trump name. Why people like the Kennedy Center. So if you remove the name, we basically have to return all of the endowment and all of the money. And so you're going to be bankrupting us. I've never seen in my entire career planting a poison pill in your own entity to destroy yourself health like that. And but this is Trump's behavior his whole life. And so let's talk about what the judge ruled. Here's the order from earlier. The parties are ordered to file a joint status report within seven days of the mid July Kennedy Center Board of Trustees meeting alluded to in the report or by July 31, whichever is earlier. The joint status report shall apprise the court of any pertinent factual development as to plans for future construction and operations, operations at the Kennedy Center. The report shall also indicate the purpose for and the status of the tarp and scaffolding that defendants have erected on the front portico of the center to the extent they remain at that time. So ordered. Judge Christopher Cooper. Let me get your take on this, Karen. I mean, to me this also shows how petty Donald Trump is, but it also just brings more attention to it. If you just took the name off, maybe it would be a one day story. There'd be people applauding now every day as the Trump regime engages in all of these cover ups. You have a literal cover up, a tarp that is a literal symbolism. We'll talk a little bit about the rot in the reflective pool, but you have a cover up and you have rot physically manifested in D.C. karen?
- [29:04]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Yeah, I mean what you see here is a judge that is basically calling them out and saying, I think I'm being lied to. He didn't say that. But that's the sort of read between the lines because this tarp that they put up, they claim that it was done because there's necessary repairs that have to be done to the facade, to the soffits. And what this lawsuit essentially brought to the attention of the court is, look, the soffits, first of all, there's been no indication that there's any repairs that need to be done to the facade, number one. Number two, these soffits that you talk about are like 20ft above where the tarp is. Number three, this tarp was put up up in what looks like a permanent, it's more of a permanent or semi permanent structure. It's not like, oh, we're going to take The Donald Trump initial or the lettering that was put above where it says the John F. Kennedy center for the Performing Arts, it said the Donald Trump and John F. Kennedy. And of course, he puts his name on top. You can imagine a scenario where they would put a temporary tarp up while workers take down the lettering for safety of the public reasons so things don't fall off and hit the public, et cetera. This does not look like one of those temporary tarps that you would put up that frankly, it shouldn't take more than a day or two to take this lettering down. It's about what it took to put it up. Right? These are just letters that are affixed onto a facade. Take them off. That's all that we're ordered to do. In addition to restore the programming and, and not close. And not close down if you can't, if you're going to go bankrupt and lose money. And what they put up instead was something that looks like more of a semi permanent structure. It has doorways that you can walk through. There's no indication that this is anything that's going to be coming down anytime in the near future. And the judge sees right through it. And the judge is basically. Because we can't see behind it if they've taken the lettering down or not. So. So frankly, we have no idea what they have going on. They're just putting it up there so that they don't have to take the lettering down. And the judge is like, no, no, no, My order wasn't to cover up the name. My order was to take it off and to do certain things. I want to know what the plan is. I want to have a joint status report for what's going on, both with programming and the tarp. And frankly, this judge is clearly suspicious of what's going on. And number one and number two, two, building a record, building a really important record, which is important to do if he later is going to take action, if he was lied to, if people are in violation of his order. So he's taking his time to build the record he needs to build because he knows that you can't. Basically, they're not trustworthy. And judges have taken note, right, that this administration, and when they come to court, that they're no longer afforded what's called the presumption of regularity, meaning you can trust what they have to say. And so judges, I think, are behaving in ways that we've never seen before toward the United States government because of this administration. And that's what's happening at the Kennedy Center. Did you see also, by the way, did you see that somebody put up the video of the Jeffrey Epstein documentary
- [32:29]
Ben Meiselas
onto the TARP and talk about Epstein in a moment too, because it gets to this point of compliance and as you talk about building a record, you have to build that takes time. Fascism and non compliance happens fast. So a broader question that I have, Karen, is how does our legal system that is rooted in implied covenants of good faith and fair deal, that a law or a contract can't do everything, you can't spell out every word in order. The language sometimes that it would take to capture every possible variable doesn't always exist. And so our system and why people used to I think, admire our country versus lots of other places. And not to suggest there are other places that don't have good systems and democracies that function. I don't want to seem so myopic in my viewpoint about just America, but what I think was an admirable proposition is people would look at our Constitution and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not that extensive of a document. How do you all just kind of follow it? And you go, well, you know, there's a take care clause. Congress is Article one, judges are Article three. The president takes care that the laws are faithfully executed, checked by Congress, checked by the courts if they don't do that. But there's a general view of compliance and fulfilling obligations with good faith. Same thing. You know, our laws don't spell out. When Congress passes a piece of legislation, it doesn't spell out always every specific thing. It's why we had agencies and regulations and things that would and then executive orders that could effectuate laws, not count and destroy the law. And then you have judge orders where a judge order of hey, you need to remove your name and you need to allow it to function. I don't think the judge would ever say, man, I got to do an anti TARP provision in my order. I mean no one would even think that that was a thing. Yet Donald Trump shows you, you know, you do have to guard against this, this, this, you know, and that it also Karen dovetails with our conversation during the first segment though about you have an points and he'll go outside of that. And that's why he never wanted anything in writing. And even when it's in writing, there's super the secret side deals. You don't know they're going to buy our corn. Where does it say that? Oh, you know, they're going to actually agree to IAE inspectors. Where does it say that? And so that behavior has got us involved in catastrophic wars and may be this perpetual 60 day cycle with Iran and Karen, that's brought us here right now, enabled by the Supreme Court's absolute immigration immunity ruling. Your practice of law, my practice when I is always rooted in good faith concepts of how you deal with people. That's been shattered. So how do you as a, how do even you, Karen, see this? As someone who relies upon that in courtrooms when you're dealing with prosecutors or other litigants.
- [35:45]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Look, the sad thing is nobody believes what, what he has to say and the American people don't believe it. And even a lot of Republicans, Republicans and his own supporters don't believe half of what he has to say. But they all think he's this great deal maker and that'll get the job done because he tries to use brute force. That sometimes works. And to answer your question is how does that work for people like me and you? Sometimes it has an effect in the moment, but long term it's not effective. He's really engaging in coercive, threatening behavior on an international scale. And he is, that's only going to go so far, especially with a country like Iran. And he is not careful, he's imprecise and he is not truthful. And that is coming back to bite him in so many areas, whether it's in courts in this country, whether it's on the national stage and frankly at the midterm elections, I think it's really going to come back, back to bite him, hopefully, because everyone sees through it at this point.
- [37:03]
Ben Meiselas
Everyone, you know, that's where do we need as a country, you know, and it's obviously not something you and I can necessarily answer in the next several minutes. On this segment, though, do we need to rethink the Constitution and do we really need to rethink the system? Because it has exposed that the gaps that exist which used to be filled by the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, the take care clause, doesn't exist anymore. And in other systems there appear to be more checks and balances in other countries even that are based on systems where they still have monarchs but where the. I'm not suggesting we should go in that. I'm just suggesting when I look at, you know, a system of Australian Commonwealth countries that have governor generals and things like that, where the commander in chief has to show up and debate the other side in Parliament and that you have to climb up the ranks and be proven in Parliament before you get, before you get the role that you can play nice in the playground with other people. You know, I used to think naively that we had the great system, but increasingly, you know, as, as I, you know, as, as I live through more of this, I think to myself, I shouldn't be saying the founders were brilliant. They were brilliant at a time, but they weren't able to anticipate what's happened right now. And maybe we need to rethink all of this, honestly, you know, to, to truly more perfect democracy because this has created a situation where, you know, where, where. Where our democracy really isn't. We're not a democracy right now. I mean, we are a authoritarian, Putin like country. Karen?
- [38:59]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Yeah, you bring up an excellent point, Ben. What this is showing is where the stress points are in our great democracy. And look, I think the founders did an incredible job and set us up for great success and a great country in the American dream 250 years ago. But just like laws change over time as times change and all laws in our system go through evolutions and get reauthorized and changed and updated and modernized over the years. And some things are abandoned, some things are improved upon, some things are added just depending on a change of times. And whether it's giving women the right to vote, whether giving black people the right to vote. It's good to change is good, good. And this, you might be right that it's time now to, I wouldn't throw out our Constitution, but certainly look for areas where we can improve now that we've seen kind of where the vulnerabilities are and the weaknesses are and how our democracy. We're in an existential moment. That's not hyperbole. And we have to decide as a country, do we. What do we want? And do we believe in democracy still? And do we believe in giving people a voice and a choice and freedom. And freedom to love who you want and to be who you are and to worship whatever God you want and all the other freedoms that we thought we all had and that we have coveted so dearly and, and to protect those, do we need to modernize our Constitution, I think is an excellent question that is certainly worth asking and certainly worth looking at because we are seeing in living color just the vulnerabilities of this current 250-year-old system.
- [41:03]
Ben Meiselas
Right, Karen, when you have a trial and everybody knows this about you, but Karen's like the top trial lawyer that exists right now in our country, so know you. So you're hearing from someone Firsthand who. And she's humble about it. But let me just sing your praises.
- [41:20]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
I'm part of a lot of really good teams.
- [41:22]
Ben Meiselas
So of course, sometimes I'm sure you would say, you know what, let's just go. Like, let's just do the trial. Like, let's just go pick a jury and let's go. But there's a process. Processes are messy, they're slow. You know, you. You have a hearing, you wait for an order. You have a hearing, you wait for an order. You know, you have preliminary hearings, you know, there's a lot in there. You know, you, you test the evidence. Is it admissible? Is it not admissible? You challenge the way evidence is gathered to ensure that it's handled with the requisite requirements that a jury is getting accurate, reliable, non prejudicial evidence. And that's our system. And there are systems out there that aren't like that, where the oligarch or the stooge or the kangaroo court leader says, I don't like you guilty or I like you innocent. That's. Other countries have systems, you know, like that. And similarly, there are other countries that don't have to have bicameral legislature. Got to go to this chamber. Got to go to this chamber. That's our system that exists.
- [42:38]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
You can.
- [42:39]
Ben Meiselas
And that's worked. And it's been slow and frustrating. But what it seems is that because it operates messy, there have been a lot of people who could take advantage of this system sucks. Here's what we want. But what we're seeing now, Karen, I think, is the consequence of that, though, where you're not careful, where you don't have checks and balances, where you don't allow the proper safeguards, boom, you're in this territory.
- [43:07]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Yeah. My most fun job, Ben, because I wear several hats in life, is I'm the legal advisor to the great show Law and Order. And it's a great show, but it definitely does not reflect what you just described, which is how things are slow, methodical, take time and. And you really do have to put in the work to hammer things out in a way that's intelligent and makes sense.
- [43:44]
Ben Meiselas
Well, and I'll tell you so you have a show like Law and Order, but then you have reality shows that we know are not actually reality and often reflect the kind of scripted carnival, you know, degradation. And, you know, when you think about the indoctrination of reality show culture over a period of time that spans a lot of the generation of voters, and you think about the way United States is being run sometimes, I feel, or not run, like we're dystopian. Like we are non consensual extras in this dystopian nightmare reality show that's existing here in the United States and the rest of the world at a leadership level are either looking at us and horrified or laughing or both and saying what the hell are they doing? Like, like what the hell is going on? But there are real world consequences here and abroad. I want to come back and talk about, you know, will there be these contempt proceedings taking place? What are these 101 retired federal judges doing? We'll talk a little bit about the reflection reflecting pool litigation and what's going on there. I never thought I'd talk about reflecting pool litigation, but here we are. Anyway, a quick reminder, make sure you all subscribe to the Legal AF YouTube channel. Keep that Legal AF YouTube channel growing as well. And then subscribe to the Legal AF sub stack and subscribe to all the Legal AF stuff. All right, let's take our last quick break of the show. We'll be right back.
- [45:14]
Podcast Host
Summer is here and one of the best upgrades I've made at home recently finally is installing a tushy bidet. It took about 10 minutes to set up, attaches right to your existing toilet and honestly just makes you feel cleaner and more comfortable than using toilet paper alone. I also like that it modernizes the bathroom a bit. Warm water, adjustable settings, and way less wasted toilet paper. It's one of those products that feels luxurious but is actually practical too. Stop guessing you're clean. Start feeling For a limited time, Our listeners get 10% off their first bidet order when you use code LEGAL AF at checkout. That's 10% off your first bidet order at. HelloTushy.com with promo code LEGAL AF One more time, our listeners get 10% off their first Bidet order when you use code LEGALSAL AF at checkout. That's ten percent off your first bidet order at. Wait for it. HelloTushy.com with promo code LEGAL AF. We have an important message to share from our friends at Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The Trump administration's excessive Christian nationalist rhetoric is only building as we move toward the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. AU is highlighting a case involving federal workers caught in the crossfire. A multi faith group of federal employees filed a new lawsuit against the U.S. department Department of Agriculture for violating the separation of church and state and the religious freedom promised in our Constitution. Americans United received emails from Multiple USDA employees saying the proselytizing Easter email sent by Secretary of Agriculture Brooke Rollins to more than 100,000 USDA employees is an abuse of power that violates the separation of church and state promised in the First Amendment. Amendment they are absolutely right. Government employees signed up to work for the usda, not attend Brooke Rollins's Sunday service. The Constitution draws a bright line between personal faith and government power. And this lawsuit says she trampled right over it. Well, the hits keep on coming from this administration and Americans United is doing their best to keep up the fight against Christian nationalists. If you want to help, head to au.org legalaf to learn more about their work and how you can get involved. Americans United supporting everyone's right to live as they choose, so long as they don't harm others. That's au.org legalaf
- [47:52]
Ben Meiselas
welcome back to Legal AF. Great to be here with the great Karen Freeman. Agnifolo. Of course we miss Popa. Karen. Let's just get into it. Judge Boasberg issued his criminal Contempt order now. 433, 434 a long time ago. Here we are, kind of like what I talked about in the last segment, you know, building records. Up, down, up, down, you know. Meanwhile, the impact on human beings moves quickly. You hurt someone, you throw them in a terrorist detention center where they don't belong. You terrorize people, you kill them, you torture them. That's instant. The process is slow. And here we are. So what's the latest, Karen, that's going on with these contempt proceedings? What does en banc mean for our viewers versus what happened before? Where are we?
- [48:43]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
So this all stems from a, if you recall an airplane filled with I think hundred plus men who were taken on over a weekend to El Salvador. These were Venezuelan men who were taken to El Salvador to secote this prison that when you look at pictures and you see what the conditions are like, it looks more like a concentration camp. It's really these are among the worst human rights violations and one of the worst places in the world that you can be incarcerated. And, and they were being taken without being afforded the opportunity to say and have their hearing in court about
- [49:33]
Podcast Host
why
- [49:34]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
they should deserved asylum here in the United States. And Judge Boasberg was in court with the Department of Justice who was basically he ordered them not to remove these individuals. And there was a lot of back and forth about whether the order was clear because P.S. they violated his order and they took them and incarcerated them. And there has been a lot of back and forth including with a whistleblower, this former DOJ employee, Erez Reveni, who came forward and said that Emile Beauvais, who was, I think, the number two or the number three at the Department of Justice at the time, but is now currently a circuit court judge, he was appointed by Trump. He was also Trump's personal attorney in the Manhattan DA prosecution. He and Todd Blanche were Trump's personal attorneys, his personal defense attorneys. And Erez Reuveni basically said that Bovet, who was his boss at the time, told them them essentially, don't comply with any judge's orders and tell them to f off. And so Judge Boasberg was in the process of having a hearing, and essentially he wanted to find out. He said there was probable cause to believe that the Department of Justice was in contempt, criminal contempt, of his order not to remove these individuals. And he was going to hold a hearing to find out whether he should hold the Department of Justice and the individuals in particular, Kristi Noem and others in contempt, in criminal contempt. And there was litigation surrounding whether or not the judge was able to do that. And that went up and down several times. And it ultimately went before the D.C. circuit, which is the appellate level court above Judge Boasberg. And that he got three judges at random, two Trump appointees, Judge Katzis and Rao, and then Judge Childs, who's not a Trump appointee. And they basically said. They basically stopped the contempt proceeding and said, Judge Boasberg, you can't do that. And you are meddling in areas you are not allowed to meddle in. This is a national security issue. You're not even able to ask these questions or, or look at the motivations or why people are doing what they're doing and what the Department of Justice is doing, because this is national security. Because these individuals were part of Tren de Aragua, which he was trying to invoke the Alien Enemies act, which has only been invoked three times in the history of this country, the War of 1812, World War I and World War II. And this is not. He's tried to say, no, we're going to. We're now. He did an exec. Trump did an executive order saying, no, Trende Aragua was, is. I'm invoking the Alien Enemies act, that these are individuals who are enemies of the state, essentially, and therefore suspend their due process rights. It's national security. I can do whatever I want. And so this is a whole big fight about whether or not the judge is able to even look beneath the hood and to say, did you violate my order. And what's interesting and what happened today is that when you have a three judge panel in the circuit, you can ask, you can apply to say, to ask the full panel and there's 11 judges on the panel, you can ask them to all hear the case and they vote on whether or not they're willing to do that and whether they think there's enough votes to essentially say that the three judges got it wrong. And so the fact that an 11 judge panel agreed to take up this issue in a full en banc panel, whether Boasberg was right and whether he was able to investigate this contempt is significant. What's also Significant is the ACLU who represented these 130 plus men who were taken to see cot Judge Ludig, who has been on Legal AF many times and has been, and he's a retired federal judge. I think at one point he was even being considered for the United States Supreme Court or certainly he was on the short list. He has compiled a list of over 100 other former federal and state judges to support this filing and talk about the rights of judges and their ability to do these types of investigations. Because otherwise if a judge can't, can't investigate whether his own order was violated, it's really infringing on an essential basic function of the court. So what they didn't do though is they didn't lift the stay. They kept the stay order in place that the three judge panel issued against Judge Boasberg while this is litigated. But they did agree to hear it and to take it up by the full court. And so I found that interesting. And the story continues there.
- [55:15]
Ben Meiselas
You have that. I want to also chat about your view on these 100 and or yeah, what is it? 101 former judges, pretty extraordinary step from all different political backgrounds, state, federal, you know, reaching out to a bar association to send a letter like this. I mean, it's truly an unprecedented, truly an unprecedented thing. What do you make of it? Because these are not, when you retire as a federal judge, maybe you, you act as a mediator or you kind of sail into the sunset, but you don't step into an arena like this. And, and we see these lists growing and growing and growing and it's not, oh, these are Democrat judges or these are from all over the political spectrum.
- [56:04]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
I remember when Trump was elected the second time and there were a lot of issues that people, various groups, whether it was ACLU or Democracy Defenders or other groups that are fighting to uphold the rule of law, were looking for judges to come forward and do things like file these amicus briefs, friends of the court briefs. Because judges have a unique perspective, right? They're not adversaries. They're the ones who sit above the adversarial system and are supposed to apply the law to the facts, and they're supposed to be objective and neutral and do their best to apply the law and the United States Constitution to whatever's happening. And. And as we've seen, judges have become more and more politicized, and you've got. Nowhere is this more on display than the United States Supreme Court, where things largely, not always, but largely fall along partisan lines and ideology. And in the beginning, it was noticeable that whenever you did see a judge or judges sign on to these things or speak out, it was often. Judge Ludig was one of the first. You know, he was a former Republican, by the way. And there were a few others, but not many, because this is a role that judges aren't used to. They're used to remaining neutral and not taking any sides and certainly not putting themselves out there. But this growing list of judges who are willing to come together and stand up for the rule of law is notable for two reasons. Number one, it's just not normally done. But more significantly, when you look at the things that they support and come out and write about and talk about, it's all about upholding the rule of law. Because they see this as an existential threat to our democracy. They see this as an existential threat to the rule of law. And the way our democracy is supposed to work is win or lose, you're all supposed to follow the rules. Sometimes you win, sometimes your side wins, sometimes your side loses. But we live in a democracy, and we accept the fact that, okay, I lost this time. I have to do a better job at convincing the hearts of winning over the hearts and minds and convincing people that my way is the right way. But I'm not allowed to go out and do things that I don't like. This law that you passed Congress, it doesn't benefit me. So I'm just gonna ignore it, and I'm just gonna go out and do what I want. And that's not what it means to live in our democracy, and it's not what it means to live in a free society. And that's what Trump and his administration are doing. And largely the United States Supreme Court, with Trump versus United States, greenlit, his ability to do this because he is untouchable. He's untouchable. He cannot be prosecuted I mean, he can be impeached. And I'm sure that's what he's worried about, which is why he's so terrified of the midterms, because he knows that if he loses the House and the Senate, he could be impeached potentially. But that's really the only recourse, that and an election against him. And so he has just the difference between the first Trump regime and the second one is night and day, because he knows he has a get out of jail free card. In fact, even his slush fund, his 1776, what he calls the anti weaponization fund, he's the even. You know, it's not enough that, that it's not enough that he can't be prosecuted for anything he wants to put in there, that he can never even be investigated by the irs, not him or his family for anything. This guy just wants to do whatever he wants and whatever benefits him and his family. And unfortunately, that, that is what we see is happening here.
- [60:05]
Ben Meiselas
Yeah, I think about that Supreme Court oral argument over absolute immunity where the right wing Supreme Court just Justices said, you know what we're really worried about? We're worried if we don't give absolute immunity, we're going to chill or stall the president's ability to take care that the laws be faithfully executed because they're always going to be scared of doing things because they may get arrested. To which the liberal justices said, no one's ever been scared about that as presidents before in our country's founding, because they're not violating the law. What are you talking about? What we should be afraid about is what happens if you give somebody with authoritarian ambitions absolute immunity because they'll start behaving like an authoritarian, to which Justice Roberts and the right wing just, we don't have to worry about that. What are you talking about? That was the debate that happened on the Supreme Court. And the right wing justices gave absolute immunity. Trump's cases got dismissed. And now you have exactly what the liberal justices predicted what was going to happen, or perhaps even worse. And you'll recall those liberal justices gave hypotheticals what happens If Seal Team 6 goes and kills this person and that person. Immunity, yes, immunity. Right wing justices, yes. Immunity. Yes, immunity. They were building Trump's lawyers the contours of what that looks like. And what it looks like is pretty much limitless authoritarian power. And as we see taking this episode full circle, that when Trump is. Is cornered, he does back down. When he is cornered, he does respond. And so if you had prison time and Jail as a thing that would actually serve as an accountability lever. The last thing I'll talk about, just very briefly, the reflecting pool litigation. A Trump appointed judge, Judge Carl Nichols, has ordered the Trump administration to respond regarding what the hell is even happening with the reflecting pool. The people who brought the lawsuit predicting this is what's going to happen. If you don't hire the right contractors and the inspectors and you don't go through the right process, this happens. There's a reason why there's process, because you want to make sure you hire people with experience and all of that. And right now we're seeing what happens when you have Trump donors and cronies involved in this. And then what does Donald Trump do? Right back to the playbook. Antifa vandals. The election was stolen, it's rigged. And now you see the reflecting pool and it's filled with National Guard and fences and weird AI machines and detection software. And I mean, it looks like a stupid police state. You know, they are doing police surveillance on a reflecting pool. I cannot think about what makes us look dumber as a country than this. And it's a national humiliation. It's a national, national disgrace. It really is humiliating. And I have hope that more of the country does not support this regime than supports this regime. But, you know, I'll end with this. We really need to listen to what people are saying right now more than ever. You know, you need to listen to what people are experiencing, their pain and suffering and psychological torture is real. It's not made up. It's not a talking point. It's not. I'm going to move you 2.2 points to Democrat or this candidate. No, no, listen to what people are saying and fight for people, defend the people. To me, that's such a basic message. And as we move closer and closer to the ministry midterms and we have these primaries, everybody wants to dissect, you know, the pundit class wants to dissect this and that and say this is what the Democratic part. No, that's what the Democratic part is. No, this is what this is to hop. Just listen to what people are experiencing. Empathize, truly understand what they're going through. If you're not capable of doing that, get the hell out of the way and let people have positions that can influence policy, that actually care about people. Listen, deliver, fight. It's the basic message here on the Midas Touch Network in Legal af. Great honor filling in for Michael Popak. We miss him. Don't worry, he'll be back soon. Great to be here with Karen Friedman Agnifolo. We're so appreciative of all the Legal AF followers I hear. Reminder. Subscribe to the Legal AF YouTube channel. Subscribe to the Legal AF substack. Let's keep them at top of the charts. Thank you everybody for watching and tuning into this episode of Legal af. We'll see you next time. Shout out Legal AF or shout out Midas Mighty.
- [65:17]
Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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- [65:52]
Podcast Host
Good.
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in, loyal, invested.
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Ben Meiselas
They're called fans.
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
think it would actually be the bicycle.
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Podcast Host
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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Karen Friedman Agnifolo
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Ben Meiselas
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